IDENTITY CRISIS: Questions & Discussion *Spoilers* [Archive] - Page 4

pureclint

07-25-2005, 11:16 AM

So... was the MAIN plot solving who killed Sue or the decision to do the mindwipes and the reprecussions?

I think the main plot was the murders, which lead to the revelation of the trust/mindwipe issues.

So... DC doesn't want new readers for the next year until all this Crisis stuff is over? Because the START of the HUGE crossover that is already touching all corners of the DCU aimed at people already familiar with the history will give a new reader headaches because they won't have a SINGLE clue what the hell is going on!

Remember what Stan Lee said (I think it was Stan anyway) "Every comic should be written as if it were somebody's first"

So if DC's mega event isn't aimed at bringing in new readers and just at us old time continuity junkies, they are going to lose readers (people who don't wat year long events where they feel they have to buy every book to understand the story)... and not gain new ones because no one that hasn't followed since the beginning will be able to understand whats going on.
And I don't know much about that "One year ahead" crap people are talking about so I reserve judgement on that! :p

Come on Shadow you know it is a pipe dream to think that everything with a 60/20 (post crisis) history can be 100% new user friendly. It is easy to say that "it should be" and it was easier for him to do back when he was building a universe, but even a few of Stan's books were not 100% new User accesible. To think otherwise is ignorant. Did they recap the FF's powers and relationships with everyone in every issue? I would also think picking up Avengers 16 as your first book would have raised a million questions as well regarding everyone leaving.

You do not have to buy everybook to understand what is going on. I do not buy every tie in I know exactly what is going on in the DCU. I bet a new fan could buy Countdown/IC and understand the story, while at the same time it might pique their interest in the DCU and make them want to buy more. I will not knock their intelligence and say it is to hard for them to grasp the conept.

Sure the history can be daunting, but that is understandable since their is so much of it. But the same thing can be said about the real world and new people learn about that all the time (and that can be broken down into Sports, Books, TV, etc). That is why being alive in this age is great we have so much information at the ready.

Can you name me a mini series that ties up every loose thread? Where we know who marries whom, how they die, what happend to their ring, utility belt or what not? Like say New Frontier, I know you disliked it, but it opened tons of Subplots not explored I see the Lex suit in the same way as I see Carol and Hal dating, if you want to learn more you can if you do not it is not a huge detail.

The Shadow

07-25-2005, 12:35 PM

I think the main plot was the murders, which lead to the revelation of the trust/mindwipe issues.
We shouldn't have HAD to THINK (boy that sounds bad...) ... DC should have TOLD us!

Can you name me a mini series that ties up every loose thread?
Secret Wars (the first one), Millenium, Legends (as far as I can remember now... it's been a while), Spider-Man Blue, The Long Halloween, Dark Victory, any Sin City story, Daredevil Yellow, hell, even The Sentry wrapped everything up... BUT what other writers have done is picked up where Jenkins left off! ... shall I continue?

Where we know who marries whom, how they die, what happend to their ring, utility belt or what not? Like say New Frontier, I know you disliked it, but it opened tons of Subplots not explored I see the Lex suit in the same way as I see Carol and Hal dating, if you want to learn more you can if you do not it is not a huge detail.
I do see your point... I just disagree with the execution of it. They could have wrapped everything up and took stories from there.

The Lex suit for example... it could have been revealed Lex stole it back... but not the WHY's... THAT would have solved the red herring but left it open for another story!

Who the new Boomeramgs speedy mom is could have been revealed thus eliminating him as a bad guy in the murder/mindwipe bit... BUT the how's and whys could have been answered in Flash or another mini series.

pureclint

07-25-2005, 12:53 PM

We shouldn't have HAD to THINK (boy that sounds bad...) ... DC should have TOLD us!

Haha, at least you know it sounds bad!

Secret Wars (the first one), Millenium, Legends (as far as I can remember now... it's been a while), Spider-Man Blue, The Long Halloween, Dark Victory, any Sin City story, Daredevil Yellow, hell, even The Sentry wrapped everything up... BUT what other writers have done is picked up where Jenkins left off! ... shall I continue?

Umm did not Ben Grimm stay in War World? Hell Its been so long but Spider-Mans suit was shown to be more then a costume. Not sure about Millenium or Legends, do not recall what those are. Loebs Batman stories had no dangling plot threads? Do we even know for sure who the Killer was in the first one and did they not just put out a Catwoman one as the question of her parentage was not answered? The Sentry mini created so many questions it is not even crazy, hell go read the last page again, does he remember?
Sin City has so many toss away lines about the characters shared pasts that Miller has been able to make new tales about them. But he does a good job of keeping it all self contained (of course his goal is still different then IC's goal).

Plot threads!

I do see your point... I just disagree with the execution of it. They could have wrapped everything up and took stories from there.

The Lex suit for example... it could have been revealed Lex stole it back... but not the WHY's... THAT would have solved the red herring but left it open for another story!

Who the new Boomeramgs speedy mom is could have been revealed thus eliminating him as a bad guy in the murder/mindwipe bit... BUT the how's and whys could have been answered in Flash or another mini series.

Now I agree with you, a lot of things could have been answered in the series but imagine all the future panels we would have had to have? But interviews from the writer have said he put many things in on purpose for other writers to continue, and I think that is what comics do. They develop plot threads for others to explore, even more so in a book that was a block in the road map of the universe.

I did talk to my pal who is a casual fan regarding Countdown. Here is the IM conversation (names changed):

pureclint says:
Were you confused by much in it?
M says:
not really
M says:
granted i never heard of blue beetle til you told me about him (before the comic came out)
M says:
but i still understood it

He has yet to read IC, I asked him to and when he does I will share.

The Shadow

07-25-2005, 02:03 PM

Haha, at least you know it sounds bad!
LOL :D

Loebs Batman stories had no dangling plot threads? Do we even know for sure who the Killer was in the first one
It was Dents wife and Alberto Falcone

and did they not just put out a Catwoman one as the question of her parentage was not answered?
THAT I'm not sure about...

The Sentry mini created so many questions it is not even crazy, hell go read the last page again, does he remember?
He CAN'T remember or else he will use his powers and the Void will return.

Sin City has so many toss away lines about the characters shared pasts that Miller has been able to make new tales about them. But he does a good job of keeping it all self contained (of course his goal is still different then IC's goal).
Yeah, good point about Sin City... totally different goals.

Now I agree with you, a lot of things could have been answered in the series but imagine all the future panels we would have had to have? But interviews from the writer have said he put many things in on purpose for other writers to continue, and I think that is what comics do. They develop plot threads for others to explore, even more so in a book that was a block in the road map of the universe.
Yeah I see what you mean... but I still think for IC to be complete it should have ansered the questions it asked and other writers could have picked it up FROM THERE... BUT none of us know the TRUE plans of DC... so really it's moot. I just like to discuss (read - argue! LOL) about stories I really feel strongly about.
Good talk with no name calling!

Jerk :p :p

pureclint

07-25-2005, 02:14 PM

It was Dents wife and Alberto Falcone

I dont know I still see debate about it today, and Loeb either does not know or will not answer. Did not Harvey commit one murder to?

THAT I'm not sure about...

It was a good series, Catwoman: When in Rome. If you have not check it out.

He CAN'T remember or else he will use his powers and the Void will return.

I don't know man, I just bought the trade to reread and he says before hand the void is its own entity now and he gives that sly smile on the last page when he meets his sidekick and it flashes to him and the SK doing a ad. Hell even in the post interviews JQ and them say they are not sure. But outside of that how many other questions did it bring up about the MU, tons!

Yeah I see what you mean... but I still think for IC to be complete it should have ansered the questions it asked and other writers could have picked it up FROM THERE... BUT none of us know the TRUE plans of DC... so really it's moot. I just like to discuss (read - argue! LOL) about stories I really feel strongly about.
Good talk with no name calling!

Concur fully, we do not know the full scope of their plans, but to think IC was just going to be this neat and tiddy book on your shelf goes against what it was set out to be. Yet, it is valid to want it to be a tighter story. (Do NOT ask me to defend the Flame Thrower gibberish that is not going to happen!)

So until Ben Grimm gets off War World, your a punk! ;)

The Shadow

07-25-2005, 02:25 PM

your a punk! ;)
LMAO

YOu know... after reading this thread, anything on Avengers/New Avenger and Joe Q... I think you are my POLAR OPPOSITE... in every way imaginable comics wise.

I just need to know the answer to one last thing to confirm it... I have blond hair, blue eyes and am 6'2". Do you have brown/black hair, brown eyes and shorter than 6'2"??? :D :D

The Shadow

07-25-2005, 02:26 PM

(Do NOT ask me to defend the Flame Thrower gibberish that is not going to happen!)
DAMMIT... THAT was my NEXT question!!!!! :D :p

pureclint

07-25-2005, 02:54 PM

DAMMIT... THAT was my NEXT question!!!!! :D :p

Well I am glad I beat you to the punch then! Just like Batman I am two steps ahead, Go Me!

LMAO

YOu know... after reading this thread, anything on Avengers/New Avenger and Joe Q... I think you are my POLAR OPPOSITE... in every way imaginable comics wise.

I just need to know the answer to one last thing to confirm it... I have blond hair, blue eyes and am 6'2". Do you have brown/black hair, brown eyes and shorter than 6'2"??? :D :D

No hair (shave it but it is brownish), Hazel eyes and yes shorter then 6' 2"!!!

Not sure about the Joe Q thing (what is your stance on that?) but I thought we agreed on a fair amount in New Avengers if I recall right. Now Hal Jordan that is a different story....

*edit maybe we are just DC opposites!?

The Shadow

07-25-2005, 03:00 PM

No hair, Hazel eyes and yes shorter then 6' 2"!!!

I thought we agreed on a fair amount in New Avengers if I recall right. Now Hal Jordan that is a different story....

*edit maybe we are just DC opposites!?
Yeah it was Hal Jordan not Avengers.

pureclint

07-25-2005, 03:48 PM

Yeah it was Hal Jordan not Avengers.

Either way you shall now be known as Bizzaroclint.

Kid Seven

07-26-2005, 12:53 AM

Seems so long ago now that IC first started. DC's really kept the ball rolling on this, I'll give them that much.

The Shadow

07-26-2005, 10:42 AM

Either way you shall now be known as Bizzaroclint.
LMAO :D :D :D

The Shadow

07-26-2005, 10:46 AM

Seems so long ago now that IC first started. DC's really kept the ball rolling on this, I'll give them that much.
It's kind of like a macabre car wreck that you just can't take your eyes off...

pureclint

07-26-2005, 01:21 PM

Silly bizzaroclint, its like a pleasant car ride that you just enjoy to its entirety.

Xero

07-26-2005, 02:20 PM

Is Deathstroke's brother Wade (Ravager III) still in prison? And is Addie Wilson still alive, immortal and crazy?

Matt Algren

07-26-2005, 05:21 PM

Is Deathstroke's brother Wade (Ravager III) still in prison? And is Addie Wilson still alive, immortal and crazy?
I don't remember Wade, but Addie is dead.

Hulkamaniac

07-26-2005, 05:59 PM

Great stuff, got me more into DC since the series, changing point of DC cant miss

Z-man

07-26-2005, 07:02 PM

Is Deathstroke's brother Wade (Ravager III) still in prison? And is Addie Wilson still alive, immortal and crazy?

Rose Wilson killed him in Teen Titans #1/2, collected in the "Family Lost" trade.

Xero

07-27-2005, 03:13 AM

Rose Wilson killed him in Teen Titans #1/2, collected in the "Family Lost" trade.

Thanks Z-man!

ILLUS

08-22-2005, 01:21 PM

I haven't read any of this but I hear some good things. Is it decent? Will DC be collecting these stories so I don't have to go searching for every tie in?

The Shadow

08-22-2005, 04:25 PM

Read http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=60383&highlight=identity+crisis and the 50 pages should give you an indication of peoples feelings.

I would be in the liked it... but not loved it group.

I thought it was alright and it had some neat ideas... but the art wasn't great (again, not bad... but not great) and the implausibility of it all... the fact it took the worlds greatest detective THAT long to figure it out... I did find the murderer to be a surprise and did enjoy the scenes with Robin's dad.

Not bad... but not great

Some issues I had with it:

All the plotlines set up as red herrings only to allow them to spin off into other titles (Owen, armor, etc)? It's good from a sales standpoint but lousy from a storytelling standpoint. A mini series should tie up ALL loose ends WITHIN the series.

The final issue was a HUGE letdown! I LOVED (in a readership way) the death of Tim's father... very well done, as was the surprise I had at who the murderer was. That being said the speed at which the Atom deducted WHO the killer was was too fast and seemed rushed.

I was cool about the art... people slam Liefeld for his lack of anatomy... well, Rags also seems to lack the basics. Some of the panels were HORRIBLE and some weren't bad...

Loved issues 1-5, 6 was OK and 7 was the let down of the year for me.

Some of the worst plotting and characterization I have seen... some characters were so out there if it wasn't for the costume I wouldn't have recognized em.

DC billed it as having HUGE ramifications... But no one on the current JLA was involved... Green Arrow will likely have his membership revoked (who cares?)... we have a NEW C grade villain in Boomerang Jr. (again, who cares?)... Jean knows Batman's identity (or Tim's anyway)... SOMEHOW, but she's a nut job in a psycho ward. VERY credible... if you're a psycho!... Firestorm is now officially dead, so all 4 fans of the original can be upset... we now OFFICIALLY know the villains have a hang out (wow... I'm blown away!)

Part of what made Identity Crisis so hot was the shocking event in issue 2 when Doctor Light retroactively raped Sue Dibny. That created a lot of buzz, just to see how that would be resolved. But by the end it became apparent that act and others were more or less for shock value to garner people's attention... and it worked.

And then there's the monumental problem of Jack Drake's death and how Jean Loring knew Tim's secret identity. As quoted by JeffreyWKramer: "She and Ray were divorced many years before Tim became Robin, and it's unlikely he'd be discussing other superheroes' secret identities with his ex-wife. For that matter, I can't think of a single reason how/why Ray would even know Tim and Robin were the same person, since he's rarely even had contact with Tim (other than maybe a couple of big crowd scenes in crossover events). For most of the time Tim was a Young Justice member, he used a false name in place of his true identity, so it's unlikely Batman would announce his real name to every occasional/reservist JLA member."

... I THINK that about covers most of my big problems with the series.

pureclint

08-22-2005, 04:31 PM

Part of what made Identity Crisis so hot was the shocking event in issue 2 when Doctor Light retroactively raped Sue Dibny. That created a lot of buzz, just to see how that would be resolved. But by the end it became apparent that act and others were more or less for shock value to garner people's attention... and it worked

We have gone around and around on most of the points you brought up here but this one I do not think we ever touched on.

I vehemently disagree that it was only for Shock when the scene led to one of the main plot lines of IC as well as set up a big portion of the Countdown hoopla like say the current JLA arc, Villains United and OMAC. As well as leading to some of the friction we have seen between the big three, with how they handled the situation.

As to the Original posters question, it is important to read as it ties in with a lot of what is going on in the current DCU even if it was not the best constructed mini. Also I think it comes out as a trade in Oct just before the Crisis hits.

SUPERECWFAN1

08-22-2005, 04:38 PM

Identity Crisis has a lot of people who love and hate it. I enjoyed the Murder Mystery and the fact the JLA's other heroes has secrets. And those secrets had came back to haunt them !

The series did a lot of things. And heres the positive & negatives:

The creation of Firestorm II : In one issue Ronnie Raymond as Firestorm dies in a battle . His essance explodes and finds Jason Rusch who would become Firestorm II.

Calculater is Back ! : Fore years he was a mocked villain. But now DC's Calculator is the anti-Oracle. He's someone the villains turn to and who helped line up the contract on Jack Drake. ( I think we'll see who actually was behind this in Infinite Crisis or Villains United.)

Captain Boomerang II: In the rush to pretty much piss on IC , a lotta fans ( the one above me) ragged on this. In fact this was the best thing to come outta IC and the fact that Boomerang II will follow in his dads footsteps and be a more dangerous evil version.

Old Villains get redone for the new Era ! : Merlyn , Monacle , Shadow Thief ..ect ect. IC did one thing in 20 years that many haven't seen. They took rogues everyone used to mock and made them dangerous and gave them a better voice.

Jean Loring: Long portrayed as the ex-wife of Ray Palmer , Loring had a great motive. Lonely and missing her ex , she plotted a good way to get him back. This involved starting the ball rolling.

The Bad:

Too much Death: I'm not for death in comics becaise most use it a lot to try and sell stories. I accepted these deaths and moved on . Of course ya keep seeing more death and change as the heroes try n band togethor past thier secrets.

End result: Buy the TPB and judge for yourself. Its a new DC and something that really started getting DC hot this past year. Good luck....

The Shadow

08-22-2005, 04:39 PM

We have gone around and around on most of the points you brought up here
I know... that's why I hesitated answering it! LOL... Pandora's Box is open again (thankfully a Mod can lock it if things get crazy!

I vehemently disagree that it was only for Shock when the scene led to one of the main plot lines of IC as well as set up a big portion of the Countdown hoopla like say the current JLA arc, Villains United and OMAC. As well as leading to some of the friction we have seen between the big three, with how they handled the situation.
Then why not just have him ALMOST kill her? Why not have him caught breaking and entering into her house and holding a gun to her head or just about ANYTHING that let the League KNOW he knew their identities?

You would still have gotten the same thing... Light KNOWS the identities etc., without the "shocking" retroactive rape that accompanied it and the mind wipe would have been just as justified... it was justified as being "for the safety of the League and their loved ones" etc....

The outcome would have been the same... but the reader's HORROR over the rape wouldn't have been there (and wasn't necessary) BUT it was a SHOCKING EVENT and got the hype machine going... that's why I say it was used as sock value.

The Shadow

08-22-2005, 04:42 PM

Old Villains get redone for the new Era ! : Merlyn , Monacle , Shadow Thief ..ect ect. IC did one thing in 20 years that many haven't seen. They took rogues everyone used to mock and made them dangerous and gave them a better voice.
That I agree with! The villains are no longer a laughing stock and are to be taken seriously!

Jean Loring: Long portrayed as the ex-wife of Ray Palmer , Loring had a great motive. Lonely and missing her ex , she plotted a good way to get him back.
You thought that was GOOD? She arranges for people to die (Jack Drake) and be threatened (Lois) and she accidently kills someone and COVERS IT UP (luckily she just HAPPEND to bring a flamethrower.. you know, JUST IN CASE!)in an attempt to win back her ex! A card and some chocolate would have worked better.

SUPERECWFAN1

08-22-2005, 04:48 PM

That I agree with! The villains are no longer a laughing stock and are to be taken seriously!

You thought that was GOOD? She arranges for people to die (Jack Drake) and be threatened (Lois) and she accidently kills someone and COVERS IT UP (luckily she just HAPPEND to bring a flamethrower.. you know, JUST IN CASE!)in an attempt to win back her ex! A card and some chocolate would have worked better.

It was a cold way. But she at that point had left Ray to cheat on him with another man. And I'm sure she never thought about how he'd react if she came out and said she still loved and missed him. Also she was CRACKED.....so it figures in.

I'm also not sold that she killed Jack Drake. I'm thinking that whoever is helping in Villains United lined that up. For some wierd reason.

ILLUS

08-22-2005, 04:50 PM

Sorry for stirring up such a debate but thank you all for your insight. I'll check th etrade...I just hope they collect everything else that has been going on so it will all make sense to me. I was away from buying for years and now I can't keep up that I have a little extra money.

pureclint

08-22-2005, 04:51 PM

I know... that's why I hesitated answering it! LOL... Pandora's Box is open again (thankfully a Mod can lock it if things get crazy!

Then why not just have him ALMOST kill her? Why not have him caught breaking and entering into her house and holding a gun to her head or just about ANYTHING that let the League KNOW he knew their identities?

You would still have gotten the same thing... Light KNOWS the identities etc., without the "shocking" retroactive rape that accompanied it and the mind wipe would have been just as justified... it was justified as being "for the safety of the League and their loved ones" etc....

The outcome would have been the same... but the reader's HORROR over the rape wouldn't have been there (and wasn't necessary) BUT it was a SHOCKING EVENT and got the hype machine going... that's why I say it was used as sock value.

It was shocking yes but you said is was for shock value. I took it as you implied the only reason they had it in there was so we would go "Damn" and that was deffinently not how the encounter was used. I also don't see how it got the hype machine rolling, DC never focused on the rape (that was readers post story) they focused on the tough choices the Heroes had to make. They needed something above and beyond the knowledge of identies (as they had delt with that before) to push the JLA to try what they did, and they obviously could not have had him kill Sue as she has been around for years. Almost killing her might have worked but it would not have had the same emotional impact for all involved including Light who was a violent man before he become the wild sadist in the scene tossing around threat after threat.

Sorry for stirring up such a debate but thank you all for your insight. I'll check th etrade...I just hope they collect everything else that has been going on so it will all make sense to me. I was away from buying for years and now I can't keep up that I have a little extra money.

No worries its one of the reasons we come here; to debate (and I have no problems going round and round with Shadow as he doesnt try to toss in personal assaults due to our different view points unlike some other people).

If you really want to catch up try to get IC, Countdown and Prelude to Infinite Crisis. Prelude is great as it has tons of scenes from other books that impact the up comming event. I also recommend you get the issue of Superman when Wonder Woman finds out about the memory whipes but I do not recall the number off the top of my head.

The Shadow

08-22-2005, 04:51 PM

Sorry for stirring up such a debate but thank you all for your insight.
LOL

That's like starting a pro or anti George Bush thread! You're gonna get people who are passionate both ways voice their opinions!

pureclint

08-22-2005, 04:56 PM

LOL

That's like starting a pro or anti George Bush thread! You're gonna get people who are passionate both ways voice their opinions!

Dude I think we scarred the new guy!!! :eek:

The Shadow

08-22-2005, 05:04 PM

It was shocking yes but you said is was for shock value. I took it as you implied the only reason they had it in there was so we would go "Damn"
I DO think it was purely for shock value... DC could have had Light doing a 100 different things to show the heroes he knew their identities... even being on the Watchtower would have been sufficient. The rape (IMO) was added so we would HATE light and feel empathy with the heroes... but as I said they could have just as well had him holding a light gun to her head and almost kill her.

I also don't see how it got the hype machine rolling, DC never focused on the rape (that was readers post story)
True... but they didn't spend money hyping it because they knew we would. It was teh same with the Scarlet Witch going nuts... Marvel knew WE would FOCUS on that element so they didn't bother taking it up... though I do recall interviews with Meltzer discussing the rape before issue 2 was out.

No worries its one of the reasons we come here; to debate (and I have no problems going round and round with Shadow as he doesnt try to toss in personal assaults due to our different view points unlike some other people).
... DAMN YOU and I was just about to tell a mam joke at your expense! :p
I like a good debate too... sometimes when it's presented thoughtfully it may give you pause to consider someone elses viewpoint and a point or 2 you may not have considered yourself!

So about pureclint's mama... :p :p

The Shadow

08-22-2005, 05:05 PM

Dude I think we scarred the new guy!!! :eek:
:eek: ... BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA :D :D

xnef1025

08-23-2005, 07:48 AM

I don't think it was only shock value for the rape. There was also the idea of the heroes not only wiping Light of his knowledge, but also "cleaning him up". Murder, beating, and hostage taking are things superheroes are used to. Rape is something else. It reviled the JLA so much, half of the team chose to play God with Light's brain to make sure he wouldn't rape again. They didn't just remove their IDs from his mind, they fundamentally changed his personality. Zatanna raped Light's mind just like Light raped Sue. It wasn't just used for shock, it was an important plot point.

Corrina

08-23-2005, 10:47 AM

It was an important plot point except it had absolutely nothing to do with the real reason why Sue was killed.

trickster

08-23-2005, 12:12 PM

It was an important plot point except it had absolutely nothing to do with the real reason why Sue was killed.

So?
The real reason why Sue was killed was because Jean was crazy. But the way they used this to bring old dirty secrets to the surface was pure genius.

The final issue was a HUGE letdown! I LOVED (in a readership way) the death of Tim's father... very well done, as was the surprise I had at who the murderer was. That being said the speed at which the Atom deducted WHO the killer was was too fast and seemed rushed.

He didn't deduce it at all, he found out accidentally, because Jean made a mistake. If she hadn't, he would have probably made up with her and all that.

The Shadow

08-23-2005, 12:17 PM

I don't think it was only shock value for the rape. There was also the idea of the heroes not only wiping Light of his knowledge, but also "cleaning him up".
Then why did they stop there? Why not make him a "good" person? Why not mak him a law abiding and cival person that obeys the law and have him quit the hero biz? Why stop at Light? Why not take em all out?

Go read Squadron Supreme for a "superheroes altering the minds of criminals" story! Gru was at his best duing that one... and this feels like a cheap copy.

Murder, beating, and hostage taking are things superheroes are used to. Rape is something else.
I find that somewhat hard to believe. Green Arrow worked the mean streets of Seattle and Canary was raped in the Long Bow Hunters, and Batman has stopped HOW MANY rapes in the alleys of Gotham. I don't think it's such a shock to them.

It reviled the JLA so much, half of the team chose to play God with Light's brain to make sure he wouldn't rape again. They didn't just remove their IDs from his mind, they fundamentally changed his personality. Zatanna raped Light's mind just like Light raped Sue. It wasn't just used for shock, it was an important plot point.
See above... I also think he he tortured Sue physically (not better of course... but more common in comics than rape) they would have been just as pissed... and the hyperbole around the rape generated buzz for DC (hence why I think it was for hype) that they didn't have to advertise for. WE did it for them!

The Shadow

08-23-2005, 12:18 PM

But the way they used this to bring old dirty secrets to the surface was pure genius.
I think you are the only person to use the phrase "pure genius" to describe ANYTHING about Identity Crisis.

Why do you think it was "pure genius?"

Guts/Batman

08-23-2005, 12:34 PM

I didn't see why Jack Drake had to die.

I don't pretend to be an expert about Robin or anything but I don't see why Jean arranging Calculator to have Boomerang kill Jack Drake was necessary.

His death is pretty powerful and they made me actually care about his death (ala Ted Kord in Countdown monthes later).

Guts/Batman

08-23-2005, 12:36 PM

Then why did they stop there? Why not make him a "good" person? Why not mak him a law abiding and cival person that obeys the law and have him quit the hero biz? Why stop at Light? Why not take em all out?

That's my thought right there.

What exactly happened to Light? Did they take him and lock him up somewhere or did they just let him go?

trickster

08-23-2005, 01:05 PM

I think you are the only person to use the phrase "pure genius" to describe ANYTHING about Identity Crisis.

Why do you think it was "pure genius?"

Why not? It's a gripping story line, and I liked a the plot twists. There's still something regal about the DC Universe, like it's out of time, unlike Marvel's New Avengers with cheap humor (or whatever it was meant to be) like "Google it when we get home" and the naked Avengers scene.

If you don't like you don't like it. It's not like anything is rational about liking some things. I like comics, most people I know don't even know what they are, let alone derive any pleasure from them. When I tried to explain to them how great Batman Begins was they were like, "yeah, sure". Trying to explain to you why IC is a great story is the same thing.
I could start talk about how it also raises interesting questions about morality and stuff but that would probably exagerating and beside the point.

And on the more mundane level, there were a lot of amazing moments in it. It was amazing to see the battle with Deathstroke (would be even more interesting to know what he would have done had he fought a different group of heroes).
When Carter spotted Flash my reaction was "Wow, amazing! I didn't know he could do that!" And the gradual revelations were great too. "Ok we did a number on Dr. Light." "No wait, we did it to several other guys." "And holy shit they did it to Batman?"
For me it's a packaged deal mostly. I like the way the whole story comes together. Sue me. :D I've been away from comics for a quite a few years. This darker style suits me. I've grown up, my comics have grown up too. I'm 25 now, if they had kept the 80s style I doubt they would still appeal to me now. And talk about wanton violence used just for shock value, look at Marvel. There was this horrific story with Nick Fury where someone comes to him and proposes to him starting wars for fun or profit, can't remember which it was (didn't like the story anyway). And they had him call six hookers to his place and drink like crazy, which doesn't serve any purpose other than to show "Hey, at Marvel we're hip. We've got characters who smoke cigars, get hammered and sleep with six whores". DC's characters don't have to do any of that to have good storylines.

And since English isn't my native language you'll of course forgive the overuse of "amazing". I just think it expresses my feelings better than "great" or "cool". :D

Shellhead

08-23-2005, 03:09 PM

trickster

08-23-2005, 03:41 PM

Trickster,

I think you explained your position quite well. I don't agree with it, but I can understand it. There was a time when I wanted my favorite super-heroes to age alongside me, but some people here at CBR convinced me that was selfish. Some of these great super-heroes have been around for decades, passed on from one generation to the next. It would be sad if only comic readers from the 60's and 70's got to enjoy new Spider-man adventures, for example.

Comic companies need new fans, to replace the old ones as they die off or otherwise give up on comics. In the old days, that wasn't a problem because kids always loved comics, and there was always more kids coming along to replace the ones who grew up. Now comics are aimed more at adults, and it's harder to get an adult to try comics than it is to get a kid to try comics, so the overall sales are way down and the cover prices are sky-high.

Stories like Identity Crisis are a serious mistake, in my opinion, because they exclude the youngest readers, alienate some of the oldest readers, and put comics at risk of interference by the more repressive members of the U.S. government. The more extreme elements of Identity Crisis clash directly with the way the JLU cartoon is marketed to kids, so that creates a risk of backlash from concerned parents. Fortunately, american parents have plenty of other things to worry about right now, especially internet porn.

Well, I don't know. They have comics for kids don't they? Teen Titans Go!, The Batman Strikes!, Justice League Unlimited, Scooby Doo.
And concerned parents my a**. I was 14 and my parents let me see whatever movie I wanted. I watched Dracula, Die Hard. What's the big deal? Oh my god the kids are gonna see a breast! Oh my god they're gonna see guns! Oh my god they're gonna hear cursing! So what? You have kids and you wouldn't let them read Countdown why because Blue Beetle gets shot?
That's just plain stupid. A seven year old kid won't have the patience to read through a story like Countdown anyway.

Stories like Identity Crisis are a serious mistake, in my opinion, because they exclude the youngest readers, alienate some of the oldest readers, and put comics at risk of interference by the more repressive members of the U.S. government.

Well then blame it on your stupid government, and in this case on a bunch of frustrated losers who once they get power feel the need to impose their frustration-induced principles unto others. And blame it on yourself for respecting the rules they put out, no matter how stupid they are. Instead of encouraging your kids to think on their feet (and you could do that by letting them read, listen to or watch stuff that supposedly isn't recommended for their age and being there to answer their questions) you let someone else dictate how stupid/or smart or how mature they are and how mature you are. It's like "you can't tell you kids what to read, we'll tell them for you".

Guts/Batman

08-23-2005, 03:47 PM

Are you excusing lazy parents because of the way it was done with you?

Sure you could do anything you wanted (more or less, from what I have read) but I have a person I work with wwhere his parents have actually burned his books because of violence and barely any nudity (manga, it was).

I would try to seek a balance between those two extremes. Because that is how I was raised. Parents should be blamed all the time, when the kid could show a lil restraint him/herself.

We should demand a lil more responsibility from parents, not excusing them from tasks they should be doing regardless?

After I read Identity Crisis, I didn't see the need to have a mini.

The only things I can why they decided to have a mini because a) we get to see Deathstroke school a JL team and b) to have Dr. Lightget his memory back and the rest of it didn't have to be done.

The two things that actually meant anything could have been in better ways.

Hell, the people that got killed off during the mini probably shouldn't have died.

You could probably argue that this was THE leadup to Day of Vengeance as well.

KevinTBrown

08-23-2005, 08:43 PM

The creation of Firestorm II : In one issue Ronnie Raymond as Firestorm dies in a battle . His essance explodes and finds Jason Rusch who would become Firestorm II.

I definitely disagree that this was a positive..... He gets stabbed and then dies off panel.

Guts/Batman

08-23-2005, 09:07 PM

It looked to me he died on panel or did the explosion not kill him?

Suzanne

08-23-2005, 09:19 PM

Guts/Batman

08-23-2005, 09:21 PM

Assuming he's from another country (he did say English wasn't his first language), perhaps his culture has different views on nudity and fictional violence than we do, and they're not as big a deal.

Illus, an Identity Crisis hardcover should be out soon. Because it got such heated reactions here and elsewhere online, you might want to scope out some issues and judge for yourself if you're near a comic shop :)

That makes sense. What I did say fairly sharp.

I thought the tpb was coming on November, but I didn't think it was a hardcover.

Suzanne

08-23-2005, 09:23 PM

I think it is. If not, I read that a hardcover copy will be printed sometime. Check dccomics.com to be sure :)

trickster

08-24-2005, 02:25 AM

Assuming he's from another country (he did say English wasn't his first language), perhaps his culture has different views on nudity and fictional violence than we do, and they're not as big a deal.

That's right.
And I fail to see what is it you think you're going to improve or protect your children from by sheltering them from some hardly credible movie / cartoon violence/nudity. It's goddamn ketchup or whatever the hell they use.
The government says the government does... And whatever they say or do, you gobble it up because you've been lead to believe that only the government knows and could know what's best for you. So burning books and forbidding, say, rap music makes you a concerned parent? All it does is raising a wimp. Who's gonna take all kinds of crap from the stronger more liberally-raised kids and this will go on until one day he snaps. And when he goes and shoots up his school, everyone says "yeah, it's the parent's fault, they should have used a bigger whip". Or if that kid is lucky, he'll have enough of a spine to rebel against hir/her parents like so many celebrities did, for instance.
And burning books? That makes people like that different from the taliban how...?

Shellhead

08-24-2005, 10:23 AM

That's right.
And I fail to see what is it you think you're going to improve or protect your children from by sheltering them from some hardly credible movie / cartoon violence/nudity. It's goddamn ketchup or whatever the hell they use.
The government says the government does... And whatever they say or do, you gobble it up because you've been lead to believe that only the government knows and could know what's best for you. So burning books and forbidding, say, rap music makes you a concerned parent? All it does is raising a wimp. Who's gonna take all kinds of crap from the stronger more liberally-raised kids and this will go on until one day he snaps. And when he goes and shoots up his school, everyone says "yeah, it's the parent's fault, they should have used a bigger whip". Or if that kid is lucky, he'll have enough of a spine to rebel against hir/her parents like so many celebrities did, for instance.
And burning books? That makes people like that different from the taliban how...?

That's one theory. Most parents (I'm not one, and I'm guessing that you aren't a parent either) tend to see their young children as innocents who need to be shielded from violence and porn, at least until they are older and more mature. The idea is that exposing impressionable children to adult situations too soon may cause those kids to develop some strange misunderstandings that will lead to dysfunctional behavior when they are adults. Since each person only gets one shot at childhood, most parents aren't willing to experiment heavily with how their kids turn out.

CaptMagellan

08-24-2005, 11:25 AM

trickster

08-24-2005, 11:48 AM

Part of it is also a developmental thing, for example children under a certain age (differs depending on the study - paging Jeffrey Kramer) can't understand metaphor or sarcasm. As they mature, they begin understanding and using those concepts.

In the same way, understanding adult unpleasant situations, like realistically portrayed violence, rape, moral grayness, can be hard for a child under 10-12 to wrap their heads around. It would upset them because they dont' necessarily understand it properly and in some parent's opinions might be conversations they don't want to have prematurely.

You're wrong. I read the article on BBC's website and it wasn't about kids. It's actually retarded people who can't understand irony. I've had plenty of proof that even 10 year old kids can be very brutal and sarcastic, at least where I'm from. I'm betting though that no kid is ever gonna understand a reaction like burning his books (I mean that's definitely a sick-in-the-head kind of person reaction) that someone mentioned earlier in this thread. Besides I remember how a cousin of my father's told me once that when his daughter was pretty young he explained to her some of the basic things that make a woman different from a man without sugarcoating anything. I thought that was a pretty remarkable thing - most people are scared out of their wits of doing anything like that.
And believe it or not, I read the Judas Contract when I was 14 (1994). Remember it had the widely criticised Slade banging Terra, plus lots of violent scenes and Starfire posing. Good thing I wasn't born in the USA, eh?
And I'd hardly say that it left me scarred for life. The things that left their mark are those that happened to me in real life.

The Shadow

08-24-2005, 12:16 PM

I read the article on BBC's website
Wait... the BBC is run by Parlament... but up above didn't you say:
The government says the government does... And whatever they say or do, you gobble it up because you've been lead to believe that only the government knows and could know what's best for you.
So... does that mean you too have been lead to believe what the government tells you?
You told CaptMagellan "You're wrong" regarding his theory and that you can't trust the government... yet your next post you reference the British Parlament run BBC... you're sending some mixed messages here...

CaptMagellan

08-24-2005, 12:47 PM

Not to mention that anyone who's raised kids knows he's full of crap. Every parent needs to make their own decisions and different kids are just that... different.

But you know what? A lot of the stuff I thought about 'kids', based on my own experience as one, was modified to varying degrees when I had some.

It's a basic initiatory experience: the uninitiated have no idea what an initiated state is like until they have achieved it.

And as an aside, the whole Deathstroke/Terra thing... the big difference between that and Dr. Light/Sue was the violence. Deathstroke/Terra was portrayed as consensual. It might have been illegal and immoral... but it wasn't brutally violent.

trickster

08-24-2005, 12:52 PM

crapWait... the BBC is run by Parlament... but up above didn't you say:

So... does that mean you too have been lead to believe what the government tells you?
You told CaptMagellan "You're wrong" regarding his theory and that you can't trust the government... yet your next post you reference the British Parlament run BBC... you're sending some mixed messages here...

There are some people that you have to explain things twice to, or you have to explain the joke you just said. People like that, you can make fun of them in obvious ways and they won't catch on. So when I quoted that study I did it because what it said was proven by my real-life experiences. Besides, the BBC is more like state owned and supervised, not unlike your so called "private" television networks in the USA. And besides that is a scientific study, not a law. And your stupid Comics Code Authority is still regulated by the government.
In a way it makes sense that you would so severely try to sweep even mildly violent imagery and sexual imagery under the rug. Because the few who have the courage to disregard those restrictions become very profitable instruments for the entertainment industry. No wonder the rap singers make so much money ... they have the courage to disregard the censorship.

Corrina

08-24-2005, 12:58 PM

The Slade/Terra affair was really only one panel--with Terra in a bathrobe and Slade fully dressed. They were not touching and the dialogue was somewhat muted. Terra did call Slade 'lover' every now and then but it's unclear if that was a taunt.

If you choose to read they weren't sleeping together, it requires some rationalization, but you can.

In any case, kids of a certain age skip right past it. It's only older kids (12 and up, approximately) who catch the implication of sex. I know because it went right past my son (nine) but my daughter caught it. Also, if you were reading Titans at the time, you'd know the implications of the affair were played out, with the point that it basically destroyed any moral character Slade had (he went off to regain his honor, such as it was).

In other words, the implications of statutory rape in all its complicated details, were dealt with, in fairly short order, in the comic.

Whereas in ID Crisis, it's not just one panel, the violent event is then *repeated* as Dr. Light taunts the heroes. And there's no examination of how Sue/Ralph dealt with the rape. It's just in there to make the heroes mad--it's not about Sue.

So I think the comparison isn't really a good one at all. Whether I'd let my kids read ID Crisis--I had the first issue and my oldest read it and she tossed it aside: "Pretty stupid, Ma. You could see everything that was going to happen and did they have to throw in a pregnancy test too? That was a bit over the top."

Yep, she's earned the right to pick her own reading material.

The Shadow

08-24-2005, 01:15 PM

Besides, the BBC is more like state owned and supervised, not unlike your so called "private" television networks in the USA.
I'm Canadian.

And according to the BBC website:

The BBC is run in the interests of its viewers and listeners. Twelve Governors act as trustees of the public interest and regulate the BBC. They are appointed by the Queen on advice from ministers.

BBC Governors differ from directors of public companies, whose primary responsibilities are to shareholders and not consumers. BBC Governors represent the public interest, notably the interests of viewers and listeners.

The Governors set its objectives and monitor its performance. They are accountable to BBC licence payers and Parliament.

I bolded the stuff of interest regarding how the BBC is government run and operated.

So when I quoted that study I did it because what it said was proven by my real-life experiences.
But you could find studies that agree or contradict pretty much anything. I don't smoke but there are second hand smoking studies that jive with what I've experienced. You can pick and choose pretty much anything nowadays.

That's why a scientific witness with proof going one way is always countered with a defense scientific witness... because HE has proof going the other way.

The cigarette makers have "proof" smoking is NOT addictive and not harmful. Others have proof it is. It all depends on whos facts you choose to believe.

CaptMagellan

08-24-2005, 01:19 PM

Yep, she's earned the right to pick her own reading material.

Exactly.

Maybe other people in this thread are advocating government censorship (but I don't see it) but my criticism about IDC in this regard isn't about censoring, but taking responsible action to prevent any censorship backlash by fearful parents.

I didn't think IDC was suitable for one of my kids so I didn't give it to her to read. I took responsibility for my own family. But if some parent who's not a comic geek, lets their kid read it, when they aren't ready for the issues and then freaks out because it's supposedly an all ages book... that'll potentially lead to parents starting groups to watchdog which will potentially lead to politicians trying to increase their constituent base, etc. etc.

If DC had just put some sort of "Gee, if you're kids are under 13, monitor this because it may be inappropriate" warning, this criticism would be null and void.

Basic political truth: liberty is increased responsibility, not freedom from responsibility. DC not doing this is inviting parent backlash and attempts at government censorship.

The Shadow

08-24-2005, 01:22 PM

Basic political truth: liberty is increased responsibility, not freedom from responsibility.
Nice quote!

Any idea who said it? ... before you... :p

xnef1025

08-24-2005, 01:35 PM

If DC had just put some sort of "Gee, if you're kids are under 13, monitor this because it may be inappropriate" warning, this criticism would be null and void.

While part of me agrees with this wholeheartedly, another part knows that some a-hole would take that warning and use it to show how "evil comics are corrupting our youth by advertising their sick twisted stories to 13 year old children and no one is doing anything to stop the evil comics industry from turning our children into rapists and killers!"

See Wacko Jacko's crusade against the already self-rated videogame industry.

CaptMagellan

08-24-2005, 01:43 PM

Any idea who said it? ... before you... :p

I'm paraphrasing topics remembered from political science courses far too many years ago... I don't remember if there was a particular quote I'm mangling (which is very possible) but it's derived from ideas of anarchists and civil libertarians throughout the ages. ;)

CaptMagellan

08-24-2005, 01:46 PM

While part of me agrees with this wholeheartedly, another part knows that some a-hole would take that warning and use it to show how "evil comics are corrupting our youth by advertising their sick twisted stories to 13 year old children and no one is doing anything to stop the evil comics industry from turning our children into rapists and killers!"

See Wacko Jacko's crusade against the already self-rated videogame industry.

There's always going to be freak extremists, but by doing the basic due dilligence of a generally accepted disclaimer, they are isolating their critics to JUST the extremists. Without the due dilligence, the extremists AND the more reasonably concerned parent groups will have reason to stand together.

Guts/Batman

08-24-2005, 01:48 PM

There's always going to be freak extremists, but by doing the basic due dilligence of a generally accepted disclaimer, they are isolating their critics to JUST the extremists. Without the due dilligence, the extremists AND the more reasonably concerned parent groups will have reason to stand together.

Agreed. One must plan to satisfy the majority, not the minority. Though that does not work in all cases.

And i totally agree with the freedom quote.

trickster

08-24-2005, 01:53 PM

I'm Canadian.
The cigarette makers have "proof" smoking is NOT addictive and not harmful. Others have proof it is. It all depends on whos facts you choose to believe.

Yeah, but even the smokers know this is bull.

Whether I'd let my kids read ID Crisis--I had the first issue and my oldest read it and she tossed it aside: "Pretty stupid, Ma. You could see everything that was going to happen and did they have to throw in a pregnancy test too? That was a bit over the top."

You do realize you've just made my point, don't you? It's no big deal if a kid that is under the recommended age reads Identity Crisis.

The Shadow

08-24-2005, 02:08 PM

You do realize you've just made my point, don't you? It's no big deal if a kid that is under the recommended age reads Identity Crisis.
But he aslo said this:
Every parent needs to make their own decisions and different kids are just that... different.
At 12 I wouldn't have been ready for something like IC... but my sister (who I grudgingly admidt) was more mature than me at 12 likely would have been OK with it.

Cap's oldest was ready for it and wasn't put off by it... another kid the same age might have been.

CaptMagellan

08-24-2005, 02:27 PM

Also, ANY disclaimer gives parents a tool to work with -whether it says 12, 13, 66, or "parents, decide for yourselves if even YOU are mature enough to handle this."

By providing a tool, parents would be seeing DC as an ally and a responsible publisher. By not giving that tool, AND putting material in that would benefit from the disclaimer sets DC up as being perceived as irresponsible at best (which means upset parents will be scrutinizing DC material more than before) or corrupting at worst.

I just don't see what they would have lost by a simple disclaimer.

Corrina

08-24-2005, 03:30 PM

Uh, no.

My point being the 12-year-old I considered okay to read it.

I did not, however, give it to the nine-year-old, who has read and enjoyed "Judas Contract."

ID Crisis should have had a mature readers label or a PG-13 label or whatnot. I tell you what's frustrating--when my son reads and loves Teen Titans and then we get a follow-up to the rape and the mindwipe in Teen Titans--which had previously been a somewhat gory but generally all-ages book.

In the bookstore, YA is separate from Young Readers. If DC is going to have Adult/YA comics, I wish they'd label them appropriately. And I wish they wouldn't suddenly change from all-ages to Young Adult from issue to issue.

the*shpongelettes

08-24-2005, 05:58 PM

if parents allow their kids to buy their own comics (for whatever reasons), they have no right to complain or nag or ask for age-tabs in covers.

if parents buy their kids' comics, they have every right in the world to know what's inside without having to buy.

so, by logic, a classification-system ( which specifies what's inside the book ) (NOT A censorship-tab stating the age for readers: it's a consensus that children the same age can have different intelligences developing at different rates) should exist.

it wouldn't bother the adults who are children-less, and it would help those responsible good parents to better raise their kids.

the shpongelettes

(exacta coaxial, laura de vison, samira al-mukhtad)

ILLUS

08-24-2005, 07:35 PM

:eek: ... BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA :D :D

No...just super busy lately. Just started production on two new books and I am a bit overwhelmed at the moment. I did take some time out to go to the comic stores today and I considered picking up the IC series but then I wanted to get everything else related and I just couldn't justify that kind of purchase at the moment. I don't even have time to read it all.

And I'm not that new...used to go by Hood back in the day. I just don't get to post too much so I guess I'm new...:-)

pureclint

08-24-2005, 08:45 PM

No...just super busy lately. Just started production on two new books and I am a bit overwhelmed at the moment. I did take some time out to go to the comic stores today and I considered picking up the IC series but then I wanted to get everything else related and I just couldn't justify that kind of purchase at the moment. I don't even have time to read it all.

And I'm not that new...used to go by Hood back in the day. I just don't get to post too much so I guess I'm new...:-)

Honestly you do not need everything. The CRISIS COUNSELLING ARCHIVE in this forum is a great asset for little bits here and there. I would say so far the Major peices are:

Identity Crisis
Countdown
Prelude to Crisis (as I mentioned before really worth the cash)
OMAC (with a nod towards Sacrifice parts 3 and 4)

Whatever Issue of Superman Wonder Woman found out about Light and the current JLA arcs are nice bits as well to fill it parts of the story.

Everything we have been told says it revolves around the Trinity, thats why I point at the above books.

The other three series do not seem as important to the over all scheme of the looming Crisis, except for a few major points in each.

kingdom2000

09-03-2005, 12:41 AM

Ok this has probably been brought up before, but a major arc of this Crisis story is the superheroes playing "God" and wiping people's mind. It just occured to me though they already did that way back in 1997 with JLA #1-4 to the white martians and no one thought anything of it. In that not only did they force the white martians to take human form but completely wiped out their identity, knowledge, super powers and culture. It wasn't just a slight tweaking to the personality but a whole new invented person * 70+. So, I guess I am wonders is has this been brought up before and why is it suddenly a big todo now but wasn't 8 years ago.

AlterEgo

09-03-2005, 10:49 AM

i am throughly enjoying the whole identity crisis books. even if some of the characters might be acting a bit out of their own characters (a debatable question in itself), it's still a darned good read.

things in the dcu will be very interesting for the next 15 months...and i am thoroughly digging it.

Guts/Batman

09-03-2005, 02:55 PM

Huh?

The Identity Crisis mini series came out last summer setting up the events leading up to Infinite Crisis, which is going on now.

AlterEgo

09-03-2005, 03:31 PM

ya...i meant infinite crisis.

TheWinterSoldier

09-11-2005, 09:58 AM

Pushed back again to the 21st??? sheesh

The Shadow

09-11-2005, 12:40 PM

save your money

ExoKnight

09-11-2005, 01:58 PM

Release pushed back?

Suzanne

09-11-2005, 09:41 PM

save your moneyNo thanks :)

jelly [blank] of doom

09-12-2005, 12:53 PM

I thought it was still on Diamond's list for tommorow..

Guts/Batman

09-12-2005, 02:20 PM

That is one hell of an avatar Doom.

And I agree with Shadow, Identity Crisis would not have been my first choice to get the HC treatment. Bor would Hush...but I digress.

The Shadow

09-12-2005, 02:24 PM

No thanks :)
Then spend it on better comics :)

tricksterpup

09-12-2005, 02:58 PM

Yeesh, I am still waiting for the American Flagg HC.. Been saving my pennies for that for almost a year.. and why am i ranting about that here?

The Shadow

09-12-2005, 03:24 PM

Yeesh, I am still waiting for the American Flagg HC.. Been saving my pennies for that for almost a year..
Me too!

and why am i ranting about that here?
Because its better than IC? :D

Paul Newell

09-12-2005, 05:05 PM

of doom']I thought it was still on Diamond's list for tommorow..

I checked a couple of days ago and the list said it was moved to the 21st.

marshal99

09-12-2005, 10:01 PM

What extras are there for the HC ? They should have included the old justice league 3 parter story where the SSOSV members swapped bodies with the JLA where it all started.

Guts/Batman

09-12-2005, 10:11 PM

What extras are there for the HC ? They should have included the old justice league 3 parter story where the SSOSV members swapped bodies with the JLA where it all started.

HC: http://dccomics.com/comics/?cm=3992

Variant cover HC: http://dccomics.com/comics/?cm=4107

This should help at least a lil.

tricksterpup

09-13-2005, 06:59 AM

Me too!

Because its better than IC? :D
Not to piss off any IC fans, I did enjoy the mini as well, but yes, the first 12 issues was a much better story. :)

Suzanne

09-13-2005, 11:12 PM

Then spend it on better comics :)Sorry, hon. To me, IDC is good comics :p Ah well, to each their own.

I like how the first cover looks like that of a novel, just with comic characters on it. The bonus marterial sounds interesting. Is it me, or does the variant cover look like IC #1 but with the characters rearranged?

pureclint

09-14-2005, 01:00 PM

I am with you I like the Novel cover a lot more the the remix one.

Reggie Swats

09-17-2005, 09:42 AM

Yeah, the novel one is way better. I don't really understand Turner's logic having Superman just standing there in the center of the real characters from the story. Does anyone even really remember him appearing in IC at all?

Guts/Batman

09-17-2005, 04:01 PM

I remember him in it. He inspected the scene of Jeans "attack". :D

Jonah Weiland

10-05-2005, 09:53 PM

With the hard cover collection of "Identity Crisis" now in bookstores, and the launch of "Infinite Crisis" only one week away, CBR News caught up with writer Brad Meltzer & artist Rags Morales to discuss the impact "Identity Crisis" has had.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=6005

JimmyDee

10-06-2005, 12:17 AM

Great interview. Those extra pages woulda been nice, but not a huge loss. The hard cover is a fantastic package.

Sk8maven

10-06-2005, 05:17 AM

Paul Newell

10-06-2005, 05:54 AM

Well, so much for all that BS about Infinite Crisis being planned out in detail years in advance. They ARE making it up as they go along. And IMHO that's going to bite them on the butt - HARD. And they'll deserve it.

Maven
Where did you get that from? Meltzer was never one of the architects of Infinite Crisis Identity Crisis was announced and being worked on for more than a year before they started planning Infinite Crisis. That's just a baseless accusation that conveniently forgets the history at DC over the last few years. Sounds more like they decided to use something that was already in existence when planning Infinite Crisis.

Sk8maven

10-06-2005, 11:31 AM

Where'd I get that from? See link in the first message, scroll down several paragraphs to where they start talking about the connections between "Identity Crisis" and "Infinite Crisis". I'm taking their own words for it.

By the way, did you get something backward when you said, "Identity Crisis was announced and being worked on for more than a year before they started planning Infinite Crisis"? Because that sounds like it supports my disparaging comments.

Now granted, I'm heavily biased because I'm unable - not just unwilling - to shell out the Big Bucks required to follow all these developments. But if they're doing as much on-the-fly changing as Meltzer & Morales claim, it doesn't smell good (not to me at any rate - YMMV).

Maven

Paul Newell

10-06-2005, 04:55 PM

Where'd I get that from? See link in the first message, scroll down several paragraphs to where they start talking about the connections between "Identity Crisis" and "Infinite Crisis". I'm taking their own words for it.

What words?What actual bit says they're "making it up as they go along":

"Identity Crisis" also was an apparent spawning ground for DC's next big project, the much-hyped "Infinite Crisis," which is set to launch later this month. Elements from "Identity Crisis" also were used in several regular titles-- perhaps most significantly in the recently completed "JLA" story, "Crisis of Conscience"-- as well as the "Countdown to Infinite Crisis" one-shot and the various mini-series that have led to "Infinite Crisis." Although it looks like "Identity Crisis" was designed to be part of a master plan by The Powers That Be at DC, Meltzer insists his story didn't start out that way.

"When I started 'Identity Crisis,' it was supposed to be a small, emotional story. That's it," Meltzer says. "Those were literally the words they said to me. And the key word (was) small."

It wasn't until Meltzer was done writing the story and shared the scripts with DC Vice President/ Executive Editor Dan DiDio and "Infinite Crisis" writer Geoff Johns that "Identity Crisis" became part of a much larger storyline. Meltzer recalls how excited DiDio was when he read the scripts, and how eager he was to use various elements-- the JLA's decision to erase Batman's memories, the resurgence of certain villains-- in the other titles.

"No one knew what 'Identity Crisis was going to be at that one moment in time," Meltzer says. "I was just making my tiny little sweater. I had no idea Dan DiDio was at the same time turning it into a beautiful quilt. They just pulled the pieces they liked.

"I wish we (Rags and I) were grand planners in that sense," Meltzer continues. "Dan is a grand planner. He just happened to say, 'I like that piece and I want to use that.' That's what continuity is. We didn't invent that."

Of course, there's also some irony in the fact that the miniseries is now wrapped up in a much larger story web.

"In reality, it started and remains the only part of the story that you can read solely by itself," Meltzer says.

By the way, did you get something backward when you said, "Identity Crisis was announced and being worked on for more than a year before they started planning Infinite Crisis"? Because that sounds like it supports my disparaging comments.

Identity Crisis was announced about a year before it came out, maybe longer. Around the time they started planning Infinite Crisis.

Now granted, I'm heavily biased because I'm unable - not just unwilling - to shell out the Big Bucks required to follow all these developments. But if they're doing as much on-the-fly changing as Meltzer & Morales claim, it doesn't smell good (not to me at any rate - YMMV).

Uh...Not once in the article do they say that they are doing any on-the -fly changing...They were talking about the planning stages of Infinite Crisis not this very minute.

You're making things up to support your bias and prove that it'll all stink and you're right. It's codswallop.

All it says is that Meltzer was writing his own story and it wasn't written for Infinite Crisis....That's because Meltzer had nothing to do with Infinite Crisis in the first place. Didio, Johns, Rucka, etc. decided to include it as a major element when planning out what stories would happen.

Babylon23

10-06-2005, 05:00 PM

I'm not really seeing any discrepancy here. As they've stated numerous times, Didido, Johns, Winnick and Rucka have been planning a sequel to Crisis for 2 years. The death of Donna Troy has often been stated as the beginning of their plans for Infinite Crisis.

Between then and now, Metzer writes the Identity Crisis script. Didido sees it, likes it, and realises that elements from it can be incorporated into the Infinite Crisis plans.

Just because they've been planning IC for a long time, doesn't mean that they haven't changed/added/removed elements of the story. If you read about the planning of Crisis on Infinite Earths, you'll see all sorts of changes made in the 4 years between conception and execution.

Sk8maven

10-06-2005, 07:07 PM

Call it an acute case of "sour grapes" if you like (the fox couldn't reach the grapes, so gave up and trotted away, saying "Who wants them, they're sour anyway!").

Maven

The Shadow

10-06-2005, 09:23 PM

I got duped into buying the issues... ain't no WAY I'm gonna get suckered and go on the hook for some dvd style commentary at the end.

The mini wasn't worth it (to me) and the hardcover is even less appealing.

On the plus side it was a good interview... Thanks Jonah

milhouse123321

10-12-2005, 04:15 AM

Hey, just wanted to know if the Identity Crisis trade is good, as in presented in a good way etc as I've never bought a hardcover and what kinda extra features it may have (if any??)
Thanks

Paul Newell

10-12-2005, 05:11 AM

Hey, just wanted to know if the Identity Crisis trade is good, as in presented in a good way etc as I've never bought a hardcover and what kinda extra features it may have (if any??)
Thanks
I thought it was very good presentation-wise. You get all the extra covers presented in a gallery and an interview with the creative team presented as a sort of DVD commentary.

pureclint

10-12-2005, 07:58 AM

I second the it was a good presentation. To bad I my LCS only had the turner cover, anyone want to trade? ;)

Joker2503

10-12-2005, 08:06 AM

I thought it was very good presentation-wise. You get all the extra covers presented in a gallery and an interview with the creative team presented as a sort of DVD commentary.

Definitely agree. I loved the commentary at the end. If they did more stuff like this for trades, rather than just collect the series, I'd buy more of them.

MWGallaher

10-12-2005, 02:00 PM

I skimmed the commentary at the local shop, and I wasn't impressed enough to want to pick it up. Seemed to be mostly Brad's script descriptions of panels that he thought worked out really well and discussion of how wowed he was by what Rags turned them into. I was hoping there'd be more discussions of the misleading clues and ambiguous suggestions that led to so many false suspects.

west3man

10-16-2005, 12:56 PM

I did a "bad thing" and purchased the collected edition of a story I didn't like very much. That aside...

Identity Crisis, as much as I've re-read, so far, wasn't as bad as I remembered. Sue's assault wasn't as "graphic" as I (mis)remembered. The talk about Ralph and Sue's relationship wasn't as... canned, for lack of a better term, as I thought (although it was still an example of the hammer-head method of foreshadowing).

My biggest remaining gripe, at this point, was that they chose THESE characters to affect in THIS way.

Has your opinion of it changed, over time? How and in what ways?

Ravenheart

10-16-2005, 01:01 PM

I didn't get the series when it originally came out but I was lucky enough to find all the issues at once on Ebay for fairly cheap.I really enjoyed the story alot.I re-read it a few weeks ago and it was still just as good as the first time I read it.

literally exaggerated

10-16-2005, 01:27 PM

I dropped Identity Crisis halfway through the first time. This time I sat down and read the whole thing in one sitting.

I actually thought that, as a piece of storytelling, it was pretty damn good.

Lester C.

10-16-2005, 01:40 PM

I dropped Identity Crisis halfway through the first time. This time I sat down and read the whole thing in one sitting.

I actually thought that, as a piece of storytelling, it was pretty damn good.

I have never been aware of the Sue and Ralph, save for a very bad issue of Gotham Knights, so I was free to enjoy the story to the fullest. If the events in IC had happened to a couple that had a beloved place in my heart like Black Canary and Green Arrow or Spoiler and Robin I imagine I would have been livid as some of the posters back when the book came out.

In typing my paragraph I realize that I can’t think of a long standing couple in the DC universe still together that weren’t written into limbo.

HumanTorch09

10-16-2005, 02:11 PM

I thought the story was good, and the storytelling was right on. Keeps you on the edge of your seat.

Jessica Drew

10-16-2005, 02:32 PM

I re-read it about a month ago, and I didn't realize the back-door rape was actually shown as it was (previously, for some reason, I thought it was just implied). Boy, DC really love their women, don't they? They cripple Barbara Gordon, they rape AND murder Sue Dibney, they make Jean Loring crazy and homicidal, and they have Wonder Woman break a man's neck. And these are their good guys.

Patience

10-16-2005, 02:56 PM

I thought the murder and mindwiping story seemed better on the second read-through (I never thought the rape was overly graphic), but the fight between Deathstroke and the League just gets worse and worse every time I look at it. I actually didn't mind that part the first read, but when looked back the logic holes in that battle became very clear. The mystery itself was well-done, though.

Lex

10-16-2005, 03:00 PM

I actually thought that, as a piece of storytelling, it was pretty damn good.Yeah, as a piece of storytelling apart from anything else, it's not bad. It was a decent mystery (until the end) and it had some fun ideas like showing super-heroes as a community. I remember actually enjoying the first issue (and probably defending it on the boards here). The only problems I have when looking at it as a seperate, self-contained story are the rape and a weak ending. If this story had been out-of-continuity, I don't think it would've been THAT bad.

But, unfortunately, it WAS in continuity. Making it in continuity caused a lot of problems for me.

1.) It permanantly (well, for now) killed off a couple characters I liked.
2.) Dr. Light is no longer an interesting villain to me (although I like that he's no longer dumb). A raping villain is NOT something I want in a comic book.
3.) The mindwipes. We were beaten over the heads with this plot for over a year because Identity Crisis was in continuity. I could've done without that.
4.) Identity Crisis seemed to infect many books I had been enjoying. I think this is the reason I stopped reading Flash. Geoff started going towards that "Secret of Barry Allen" plot and I completely lost interest. Right in the middle of the Identity Crisis, a lot of DC books seemed to change (probably gearing up for the plots that would lead into Infinite Crisis). That change in storytelling/tone/whatever is what lessened my enjoyment of DC comics and turned me into a cynical bastard for a year.

So, I think I would've been happier with Identity Crisis being an Elseworlds tale.

west3man

10-16-2005, 03:01 PM

Oh yeah... and burning Sue's body was really over-kill, no pun intended.

Side-note: I don't see how a flame-thrower implies "Dr. Light did it," at all.

Lex

10-16-2005, 03:06 PM

Side-note: I don't see how a flame-thrower implies "Dr. Light did it," at all.I remember everyone else being confused by that as well at the time. The evidence pointed to Sue being murdered by a flame-thrower or meta with fire powers. But, since it was officially confirmed as a murder, Ralph's mind searched for who might hate her enough to kill her. And, in his mind, Dr. Light was the only option (because of what would be revealed in the next issue). The heroes who didn't know about what happened with Dr. Light were still thinking about fire villains and teleporters.

I don't think this was ever explained clearing in the story. It's mostly guesses based on the rest of the story.

The Shadow

10-16-2005, 03:19 PM

Has your opinion of it changed, over time? How and in what ways?
My attitude has changed... but to the negative.

I've re-read it twice and each time it gets worse.

The flaws in logic become more glaring (a FLAMETHROWER... you know... just in case!... CUMMON!) ... the unanswered question and red herrings that should have been answered weren't... the mischaracterization just gets worse... the art was bad... Superman in some panels looked like a midget and in others looked like his neck was made of rubber... the person responsible and the way she was found out was SO CHEESY... it was like something out of a 40's movie! It was a crap ending.

What does and I think always will stand out as a positive was the death of Jack Drake. Robin's reaction, Batman's inability to help one of the people he cares most about.

Tom

10-16-2005, 03:25 PM

The really stupid part is, if Jean hadn't used the flamethrower, Sue's death would have been attributed to a stroke and no one would have investigated further.

west3man

10-16-2005, 03:26 PM

One thing I noticed, this last time, was that Jean (whatever Atom's wife's name is) INSISTED on coming along when he went to the crime scene. Obviously, I didn't know she was the killer, the first time around, but I *did* wonder why they didn't find any evidence of her presence there. In fact, I complained about that quite a bit.

Now, from what I've re-read, so far, there's no evidence that they allowed her to re-enter the room, but she DID come along. There's a chance that, like the other *trusted* individuals they let into the area, Jean was allowed to come by, too. That'd explain hair follicles, etc.

I doubt the death of Mr. Drake will be any "better" this time around, btw. Again, the foreshadowing-by-hammer approach didn't do much for me.

west3man

10-16-2005, 03:27 PM

The really stupid part is, if Jean hadn't used the flamethrower, Sue's death would have been attributed to a stroke and no one would have investigated further.
Damn.

Why didn't *I* think of that?

Hellpop

10-16-2005, 04:15 PM

My main problem with it is that it perminantly changes the Silver Age JLA in my mind. Seeing a nice, harmless character like Sue murdered and then retroactivly raped-- very distasteful, and unneccesary. Plus, the mindwipe thing was basically lifted from Squadron Supreme.

Still, I have to grudgingly admit to the effectiveness of the story. Compare it to Avengers Dissasembled-- Bendis' work will be undone the second a new (and, to be frank, BETTER) writer takes over. That's the way it is with these things, eventually the status quo is returned, then mucked up again. But with IC, the effect will be lasting, for better or worse.

Oh, and I love Rags and Bair.

CURSD BLADE

10-16-2005, 07:48 PM

I am only 18 and am only versed on Post-Crisis DCU. Not only that, but I have only read bits and pieces of the Giffen/DeMatteis JLA and was not too attached to Ralph or Sue so I enjoyed the mini tremendously.

Even if I did had a huge love for the Dibny's, the death was used to great affect and would have supported it. While there are some huge plot-holes, a feeling of unfocus during parts of the mini, and some deaths-for-the-sake-of-shock-value, Identity Crisis was an emotionally gripping read that made the icons of the DCU all too human and was a breakout book for Rags Morales.

It was my favorite read of last year, and I love it now just as much as I did. The cliffhangers from month to month and the suspense was gone though upon reading it in the HC, which greatly aided in my love for the title when it was being released in single issue last summer/fall.

west3man

10-16-2005, 08:01 PM

K'Nort

10-16-2005, 08:21 PM

I figure I'll only reread it if they start reffing things in Crisis and I discover my memory is foggy. I didn't hate it, but I may like it less if I give it another shot.

literally exaggerated

10-16-2005, 08:30 PM

For the record, I think the panel of Ralph holding Sue's body in the rain, screaming out in anguish, crying and beginning to come apart, is one of the most emotionally gripping images in comics I've seen in a while.

Ryan K

10-17-2005, 11:12 AM

Yeah, as a piece of storytelling apart from anything else, it's not bad. It was a decent mystery (until the end) and it had some fun ideas like showing super-heroes as a community. I remember actually enjoying the first issue (and probably defending it on the boards here). The only problems I have when looking at it as a seperate, self-contained story are the rape and a weak ending. If this story had been out-of-continuity, I don't think it would've been THAT bad.

But, unfortunately, it WAS in continuity. Making it in continuity caused a lot of problems for me.

1.) It permanantly (well, for now) killed off a couple characters I liked.
2.) Dr. Light is no longer an interesting villain to me (although I like that he's no longer dumb). A raping villain is NOT something I want in a comic book.
3.) The mindwipes. We were beaten over the heads with this plot for over a year because Identity Crisis was in continuity. I could've done without that.
4.) Identity Crisis seemed to infect many books I had been enjoying. I think this is the reason I stopped reading Flash. Geoff started going towards that "Secret of Barry Allen" plot and I completely lost interest. Right in the middle of the Identity Crisis, a lot of DC books seemed to change (probably gearing up for the plots that would lead into Infinite Crisis). That change in storytelling/tone/whatever is what lessened my enjoyment of DC comics and turned me into a cynical bastard for a year.

So, I think I would've been happier with Identity Crisis being an Elseworlds tale.

That was seriously the best review/analysis I've seen on Identity Crisis. Bravo.

Sean Walsh

10-17-2005, 12:25 PM

The really stupid part is, if Jean hadn't used the flamethrower, Sue's death would have been attributed to a stroke and no one would have investigated further.

Jean felt the need to destroy the body and the evidence that she was in Sue's head. So it was stupid on her part, technically, since flamethrowing Sue allowed Dr. Mid-Nite's investigative autopsy to be done - and THAT was what did her in.

B*tch was nuts, you do recall. ;) :p

west3man

10-17-2005, 12:32 PM

Jean felt the need to destroy the body and the evidence that she was in Sue's head. So it was stupid on her part, technically, since flamethrowing Sue allowed Dr. Mid-Nite's investigative autopsy to be done - and THAT was what did her in.

B*tch was nuts, you do recall. ;) :p
I just re-read that part. I'd forgotten that she didn't INTEND to kill Sue. With that in-mind, I can kinda chalk a little bit of this up to panic on her part. Of course, the fact that she brought along a frickin' flamethrower and other weapons doesn't help...

Something else. When she was supposedly being assaulted, they showed her assailant's gloved hands tying the blindfold on her. When they showed her later, she jumped/changed size from the phone to the noose (odd b/c I'm not sure why she'd need to do it like that) and tied herself up... but she had no gloves on.

I dunno. Maybe she hadn't "grown" enough for the costume to fully disappear and that's when she put the blindfold on. . . . I dunno.

grum

10-17-2005, 05:14 PM

I've come a little late to the whole Identity Crisis/Countdown/Infinite Crisis storyline, so I'm asking for a little help here:

I've read somewhere that eye colour is important in IDC. I noticed that Jean Loring's eyes were green in the final issue, but that a picture of her on a magazine cover in the same issue showed them as blue. What exactly does this imply? That she was mind-controlled? If so, do they say by whom?

Does anyone else in IDC (or the Countdown books) have "odd coloured eyes"?

And finally, how do you do that "spoiler" text trick?

Paul Newell

10-17-2005, 05:21 PM

There are two Lex Luthors at the moment....One with blue eyes, one with green.

And to spoil just do [SPOIL ] [/SPOIL ] without the spaces.

SUPERECWFAN1

10-17-2005, 05:26 PM

I will defend it because as a story it was pretty solid. It really gave you the JLA in a new light. These were heroes who had problems and it wasn't all rosy back in those days with hostess pies and all.

I do think it was pretty graphic but I can see what they were going for. This was a story that would change the DCU,The JLA and how the heroes viewed themselves and actions. So the tone was set.

In the end I always compare it to be what Joe Quesada wanted for Sins Past. But failed in every way.

Hellpop

10-17-2005, 07:10 PM

The Grey Man

10-26-2005, 01:05 PM

I cried when sue died and with Ralph's reaction it was very touching. I was carried along with the heros desire for justice.

I thought Deathstroke taking on half the world's heros was pathetic, when did he develop unlimited power? Oh he never! Then this fight made no sense at all, what Flash the fastest man alive couldn't avoid his sword...huh!?

For a while I thought they were going to make Atom the murderer, I was incensed. Then when it turned out to be Jean I was relieved at first...phew it wasn't Ray Atom, then I was bemused & confused. Was there any prior evidence of Jean trying to get back with Ray? If so where? I always thought they'd remained firm friends and that Ray still had deep feelings for her, I woulda thought they might have got back together anyway without the need for a bizarre plot.
Also there was no prior evidence of Jean being a complete & total headcase! When did that happen? It really just popped up from left field to my mind.

It left a bad taste in my mouth really.

west3man

10-26-2005, 01:11 PM

I cried when sue died and with Ralph's reaction it was very touching. I was shocked by her murder, but unmoved by Ralph's reaction except to think that it looked like a bad special effect. Interestingly enough, that's precisely the look they were trying NOT to go for.

Ralph's melted wax look didn't make me feel bad for me. He looked ridiculous but without that pitiable element.

I was carried along with the heros desire for justice.

I thought Deathstroke taking on half the world's heros was pathetic, when did he develop unlimited power? Oh he never! Then this fight made no sense at all, what Flash the fastest man alive couldn't avoid his sword...huh!?

For a while I thought they were going to make Atom the murderer, I was incensed. Then when it turned out to be Jean I was relieved at first...phew it wasn't Ray Atom, then I was bemused & confused. Was there any prior evidence of Jean trying to get back with Ray? If so where? I always thought they'd remained firm friends and that Ray still had deep feelings for her, I woulda thought they might have got back together anyway without the need for a bizarre plot.
Also there was no prior evidence of Jean being a complete & total headcase! When did that happen? It really just popped up from left field to my mind.

It left a bad taste in my mouth really.
Others have confirmed that Jean had some sort of breakdown waybackwhen. I knew nothing about this when I read I.C., but people discussed it soon after.

I don't know how bad her mental illness seemed to be before. I never read anything that gave me the impression that it was brain-stompin' and charbroilin' bad, though.

trickster

10-26-2005, 01:16 PM

I thought the story was good, and the storytelling was right on. Keeps you on the edge of your seat.

I've been saying this all along. But then again I got lumped in with those who "masturbate furiously to Identity Crisis".

I re-read it about a month ago, and I didn't realize the back-door rape was actually shown as it was (previously, for some reason, I thought it was just implied). Boy, DC really love their women, don't they? They cripple Barbara Gordon, they rape AND murder Sue Dibney, they make Jean Loring crazy and homicidal, and they have Wonder Woman break a man's neck. And these are their good guys.
What are you a feminist? That's like saying if we don't talk about rape, it won't happen. They go to show that villains are just that, they don't pour sugar down your gas tank they kill, maim, rape. And as for WW, please. She's a warrior. In the sense it had in the ancient times. What would you expect from a woman who is trained to fight?

Descartes_Lives

10-27-2005, 05:55 PM

A random question here. GA says that Sue's uncle, one of the pallbearers, requested the back left corner. Is this always where coffins are heaviest?

Des.

Daniel Hopkins

10-28-2005, 02:38 AM

i only read the story a couple of months ago for the first time and really enjoyed it. ive read it again and again and still like it.

Lorendiac

11-02-2005, 05:20 PM

I ought to go back and reread it straight through. But at the moment - I remember being badly disappointed by it because I'd been hoping for something resembling a conventional murder mystery where adequate clues are provided to let you figure out whodunit (and what her motive was!) before it's all spelled out for you at the end. Even if you don't figure it out, you should at least be moved to slap yourself on the forehead and cry out, "Of course! How could I have been so blind?"

I also disliked the rape scene, but my memories of reading #7 are fresher than my memories of reading #6. (And I recall I also found it difficult to believe that Oracle couldn't round up a single superspeedy hero on the spur of the moment who could make it to the Drake house in time to save Tim's dad after they figured out he was in trouble. And I'll probably spot other plot holes when I reread the whole thing - including Deathstroke being so ridiculously unstoppable as others have mentioned.)

heystacy

11-02-2005, 05:36 PM

Jean is a freakin mess. I still don't get why she had the flamethrower in the first place. She meant to kill sombody. How does she get off being "crimminally insane?" She should go to jail.

Mac Danny

12-03-2005, 06:29 AM

Yeah I sat in a barmes and noble and read it, but hey I was strapped for cash!

All I can say is WOW...

The wrtiing was excellent, the art was Ehh... Some real perpective problems but servicable.

Now I got to get into this Infinte Crisis thing... I take it this has something to do with Hypertime?

-Mac Danny

The Shadow

12-03-2005, 09:10 AM

All I can say is WOW...

The wrtiing was excellent, the art was Ehh... Some real perpective problems but servicable.
Funny... most people go the other way and forgive the art for it's problems and hammer the story because of it's MASSIVE flaws... mis-characterization, plot holes, retroactive rapes etc.

Personally I hated it. The ONLY part I thought was well done was the death of Tim's father.

The rest sucked.
Hard.

The Mirrorball Man

12-03-2005, 09:13 AM

I've just read it as well and I thought it was pretty good.

The Shadow

12-03-2005, 10:01 AM

I've just read it as well and I thought it was pretty good.
I couldn't get past the fact Batman is the world's greatest detective... yet he was clueless. Mr Miracle who is suppose to spot ANY weakness missed one.

Jean just HAPPED to bring a flame thrower... you know... just in case she needd to incinertare a body... :rolleyes:

Deathstroke has been beat down by the TEEN Titans... yet he gets the upper hand on the ENTIRE JLA? Cummon... maybe one or 2 before they'd get him in a rush.

Jean knows who Batman is... so they LOCK HER UP IN ARKHAM!

Jean DID NOT know that Tim is Robin.... so how did she know who is father was and how to find him?

Then there was the retroactive rape and mindwipe... blah.

jerrymcl89

12-03-2005, 10:16 AM

A lot of the 'problems' with IC are really matters of taste (i.e. the 'darkening' of the DCU, the use of rape as a plot point, etc). But I do think it had very tangible flaws as a locked-room mystery, which is what it ultimately is. When you set up a problem that the world's greatest authorities can't solve, the solution should not be that they missed things that the world's greatest authorities shouldn't miss.

Other than that, I thought it worked well thematically as a look at what makes heroes tick, and what the costs of the job are. And obviously it set up a lot that is going on in the DCU today. I just wish it had had a more clever resolution as a mystery.

BTW, I'm surprised that DC has not retroactively tightened up some of the story's logical flaws by implying that Max Lord was pulling Jean's strings, given that he was in a position to know things that she didn't.

Cayman

12-03-2005, 10:26 AM

It had some good stuff, but the ridiculous parts sure were glaring. Ultimately, it required more of a suspension of disbelief than usual. And unfortunately, it ushered in a lot of the things that have made the DCU so hard to enjoy lately - a tendency to fetishize the villians while dumbing down the heroes, replacing imaginative thinking with dull stories about superheroes bickering, and a general lack of respect for the reader.

Cay

LordEd1976

12-03-2005, 11:04 AM

I liked the way the whole subplot with Boomerang was handled. he was knida like a ballplayer that wanted to still play but everyone else was saying he was washed up. The scene where he's begging Calculator for work pulled at the heartstrings, I can't help but get the idea it was breaking Noah's heart to tell him no one wanted to use him. I felt sorry for him in the end. I thought the scene with his son at the gravesite was surprisingly tender.

I also like how some of the villians reacted to the news of the search for Sue's killer. It wasn't a mustache twirling session but rather a nice mixbag of Mirror Master having a great time while guys like Merlyn are telling him to shut the hell up because it just means more heat on them.

And it is true that Deathstroke has been beaten by the Titans in the past but there's nothing in the rulebook that says he can't learn new tricks and get better to the point where he can take on guys like Atom, Hawkman, Green Arrow, and Zatanna.

Just_A_Rat

12-03-2005, 12:24 PM

I had my fair share of problems with it. The Deathstroke fight was one of them. There was too many examples of bad comic book physics, which I don't mind usualy, but then he brought the physics of the Atom's mass into it. I always find when a comic book tries to bring physics into the book, it hurts my suspension of disbelief. In order for Atom to be tossed around by light like that, he would have to have a near-zero mass. Which would mean he would be so small Supermand couldn't see him, never mind Deathstroke. This actually brings to mind the moment in the White Martian series that started off the JLA series where Flash runs around the world and punches Zum from behind, mentioning that when he gets up near the speed of light, his mass becomes near-infinite, which will be enough to knock anyone out. While this is true, it also means he has become a black hole, and destroyed the solar system. Either hand-wave away physics with his speed aura, etc. or use them. Don't apply them selectively.

I also always hate when a Flash charges someone and they trigger a remote device to blow up... there are just too many speed issues there. Suffice it to say, I think the bomb would go off behind Wally, if Deathstroke even had time to hit the trigger. I also thought Hawkman went down WAY too easy.

As far as the story goes otherwise, I thought that there were some flaws and holes. I think still that there is no way Superman wouldn't have known (and it turns out he did) and I find it hard to beleive Superman would have continued to be part of the League after that. And, am I the only one who doesn't think that Batman would notice 5 seconds, never mind 5 minutes missing from his day? He doesn't seem like the kind of guy who "loses track of time." I also don't like that Barry Allen voted in favor of the mind wipe, only because all ot the others will have a chance to redeem themselves. He is dead, and now has died with that stain on his character. That makes me sad. I also would have liked to see Hawkman arguing to kill Light, and I don't think he did so.

Those complaints are mostly a matter of taste, of course, just like the opinion that I would have preffered that they just leave Jean as Jean, and not turn her into Eclipso - she was much more chilling to me as a normal person who lost it.

These things prevented me from enjoying the story as much as I might have otherwise. Certainly, it might have been possible for me to like the story more if I didn't feel it had poisoned years of continuity by turning Superman into someone I had less respect for.

Sharcque

12-03-2005, 01:04 PM

I couldn't get past the fact Batman is the world's greatest detective... yet he was clueless. Mr Miracle who is suppose to spot ANY weakness missed one.

Jean just HAPPED to bring a flame thrower... you know... just in case she needd to incinertare a body... :rolleyes:

Deathstroke has been beat down by the TEEN Titans... yet he gets the upper hand on the ENTIRE JLA? Cummon... maybe one or 2 before they'd get him in a rush.

Jean knows who Batman is... so they LOCK HER UP IN ARKHAM!

Jean DID NOT know that Tim is Robin.... so how did she know who is father was and how to find him?

Then there was the retroactive rape and mindwipe... blah.
what he said!

The whole thing with Jean and Robin's identity & dad is what really got to me! The Deathstroke fight was a close second.

LordEd1976

12-03-2005, 05:55 PM

Guts/Batman

12-03-2005, 08:00 PM

Finally voted. :D

Voted that Brad Metzer was the Anti-Moni-- no. The Anti-Christ.

For me to accept that Deathstroke vs. Logic fight in IDC #3, would mean I have to shut off my brain.

cheshire42

05-23-2006, 01:06 PM

Bat-Mite

05-23-2006, 01:24 PM

Zatanna erased their minds.

ShaggyB

05-23-2006, 01:26 PM

After all the mixing and molding of Earths... did Identity Crisis still occur? If so, wouldn't that mean that a bunch of villains know the true identities of many heroes? Or did I miss something that took care of that?

confused,
c42

ummm what?

Identity crisis was not about the heroes identities but more of who killed elongated mans wife. the identity of heroes was more of the commentary of them as people behind the masks. also there was that whole we took batmans memories thing.

as to your question robins dad is still dead. and sue is still dead. not sure about bats mem problem but 2/3 definantly still in effect

Bruce Wayne Jr.

05-23-2006, 01:37 PM

Zatanna mindwiped the remaining villains who discovered the heroes' identities in JLA 119. All of the stories surrounding Identity Crisis and leading into Infinite Crisis are canon.

Bordnlazy

05-23-2006, 11:32 PM

After all the mixing and molding of Earths... did Identity Crisis still occur? If so, wouldn't that mean that a bunch of villains know the true identities of many heroes? Or did I miss something that took care of that?

confused,
c42

Just remember that Elastic Man's wife is still dead in 52, So the story still took place, I could see how it being a New Earth , there could be a small chance it didn't happen the way it did. But keep in mind that they were working a while to build everything up to Infinite Crisis, So anything that happened in the past two years should still be taken as Cannon.

The Shadow

05-24-2006, 12:05 AM

Zatanna erased their minds.
I wish she could erase mine and remove this dreadful story... continuity issues (again) and just let me remember when DC told stories that were simple, non-mega-super-gigantic event crossovers.

Lex

05-24-2006, 12:44 AM

Wouldn't it be great if Sue's rape was wiped away by one of Superboy Prime's punches?

Agentum

05-24-2006, 03:31 AM

very, and the murder too.

MythicBrawn

05-24-2006, 05:42 AM

You open up a whole can of worms if Identity Crisis didn't occur. If IdC didn't occur then IC wouldn't have happened. Erasing IdC would cause a paradox for the whole post-IC DC universe. The only way to explain it would be to create an alternate universe, which causes problems with the whole one Earth, one universe concept. So, for arguments sake, IdC did occur.

This just goes to show you how messed up DC continuity is. CoIE could still have happened with a slight alteration. As a result of CoIE, hopping between the other realities would have been extermely difficult if not impossible. Pre-CoIE realities would still have been real. Post-CoIE would have been a slightly different earth with certain heroes stuck there from other realities, ie Marvel Family, Power Girl. The difference would have explained the changes in Superman, Batman, WW and others. DC could have followed this reality with all the other realities still running in the background. It is extremely silly that Power Girl origins changed post-CoIE just for it to go back to her being from E2. This is not the hand that DC dealt themself. So, here we are after another crisis event and things will still be messed up until DC chooses to have another crisis. Cue Superboy-Prime and Parallax to kick that one off.

ChairthrowerLad

09-07-2006, 11:28 AM

Identity Crisis Spoilers within! I may be the only person who hasn't read it, but if you havent read it and plan on reading it...you have been warned...

Ok, so I took some time off from collecting comics while I was in college, and I am going back and hitting some of the highlights...So, recently I bought Identity Crisis and I am reading through it now...

I have really enjoyed it so far, it is a good story and all, BUT....

I am not a big fan of Meltzer's characterizations of many of the DC heros. I realize this is a stressful time for them and all, but some of their actions and thoughts just seem slightly off. I first noticed this in his run on Green Arrow, and then in the first two issues of Justice League of America. Regardless, he does tell a good story, the thing is I feel as if he has sacrificed something to make the characters more human. While they do seem more human, they also seem kind of...different. Maybe I am just not taking into account the gravity of the situation.

As I am reading I will try to look for some examples, but if y'all could tell me what you think I would greatly appreciate it.

Edit: That and he makes Kyle Raynor look like an complete and total freaking idiot...and I like Kyle :(
Dammit! He just killed Firestorm...I am beginning to really not like this guy...

Jack Zodiac

09-07-2006, 11:33 AM

I liked his run on Green Arrow, and he seemed to have a nice peg on Ollie. Some of his stuff in Identity Crisis wasn't very good, though. He wrote some of the older guys better. Ollie and Ralph, Carter when he wasn't getting his ass handed to him by Deathstroke. His Kyle was downright crap, though, and his Slade was the definition of fanwank. Those and the entire situation the book was centered around were the only real problems.

But uh... yeah, he did alright with Ollie and Ralph. :)

ChairthrowerLad

09-07-2006, 11:41 AM

Ok I have run into another problem...

Since when did everyone who put on a mask and cape get to find out everyone else's secret identity...

I just read the part where Robin alludes to the fact that he knows Superman's secret identity...Now, dont get me wrong, I love Tim, and he is one HELL of a detective, so he might have figured it out. But I feel as if there was a time when I read comics and could count the number of people who knew Superman and Batman's secret identities on one hand. Now everyone from Ollie and Ralph to The Atom knows who they are.

Did they have some sort of coming out convention that I missed when I took my couple of years off from collecting?

The Shadow

09-07-2006, 11:46 AM

Now everyone from Ollie and Ralph to The Atom knows who they are.
It gets worse... much worse. I kid you not. I won't spoil it for you... but trust me. Come back to this post when you are finished #7.

Personally I HATED Identity Crisis. I agree with Jack in that Meltzer can write Ollie well, and I like his Hawkman. But his overall charaterizations are bad. Look at the security systems and the fact that the world's greatest detective AND mr Miracle are looking into the death and no one can find ANYTHING.

Have you read the JLA vs Deathstroke fight yet? HORRIBLE stuff. Sure Slade looks badass but at the complete expense of the ENTIRE JLA. Wally and Kyle look like amateurs...

Bah. Return it and get something better.

shaunyc56

09-07-2006, 11:47 AM

With the issue of characterization, I think that all the hero characters were created w/ the same basic personality template, and just a couple idealogical differences. Batman is all law and order, Ollie is a hippy for the best ex.

Most heroes in the DCU really just fall in the middle personality wise, which is cool, but to tell good stories in this day and age, certain peoples attitudes had to change to get that opposing force feel from hero to hero. It's just when one of your favorites is used different than your used to, it kind of sucks and stings you a little.

ChairthrowerLad

09-07-2006, 12:01 PM

With the issue of characterization, I think that all the hero characters were created w/ the same basic personality template, and just a couple idealogical differences. Batman is all law and order, Ollie is a hippy for the best ex.

Yeah, but over time, through writers that have really explored the material that each character provides, each of the great DC heroes has become pretty unique in my opinion.

Ollie and Bruce are great examples, they started out very similarly...In fact, Ollie was almost a complete knockoff of batman (plus the bow and arrows) I mean, the Arrowcave, Arrowcar, Arrowplane, but over time Ollie found his niche thanks to writers like Denny O'neil and Mike Grell (even Kevin Smith). Batman was the same way thanks to lots of writers (ironically, Denny O'neil one of them, as well). So now, through decades of comic history these guys have become individuals. That is what I think is cool.
Barry Allen, Jay Garrick, Wally West (*crosses his fingers*) and Bart Allen are all unique even though they are all the Flash.

I am rambling...I should have collected my thoughts...:p

shaunyc56

09-07-2006, 12:05 PM

Yeah, but over time, through writers that have really explored the material that each character provides, each of the great DC heroes has become pretty unique in my opinion.

Ollie and Bruce are great examples, they started out very similarly...In fact, Ollie was almost a complete knockoff of batman (plus the bow and arrows) I mean, the Arrowcave, Arrowcar, Arrowplane, but over time Ollie found his niche thanks to writers like Denny O'neil and Mike Grell (even Kevin Smith). Batman was the same way thanks to lots of writers (ironically, Denny O'neil one of them, as well). So now, through decades of comic history these guys have become individuals. That is what I think is cool.
Barry Allen, Jay Garrick, Wally West (*crosses his fingers*) and Bart Allen are all unique even though they are all the Flash.

I am rambling...I should have collected my thoughts...:p

The thing is, alot of the other DCU heroes, even the great ones who were only in team books, are still stuck w/ the same personality. The guys who they try to make different end up as hated by fans, or comic releif.

ChairthrowerLad

09-07-2006, 12:13 PM

The thing is, alot of the other DCU heroes, even the great ones who were only in team books, are still stuck w/ the same personality. The guys who they try to make different end up as hated by fans, or comic releif.

Well, we might just have to agree to disagree...but my point remains the same...while Identity Crisis has alot of characters in it, it focuses mainly on big ones that have been fleshed out more than others.

Suzanne

09-07-2006, 12:26 PM

*hopes this doesn't degenerate into more Identity Crisis bashing*

Speaking of which, I enjoyed Identity Crisis, and the first two issues of JLofA are winners, so Meltzer gets a "yes" from me :cool:

ChairthrowerLad

09-07-2006, 12:27 PM

ARGH!

How the hell does Jean Loring know Robin's secret identity?!!?

...or anyone else's identity for that matter...

the list of good characters that Meltzer has destroyed is growing...and I am not even done yet...

PanzerMega

09-07-2006, 12:27 PM

I like Meltzer's work. With so many reboots, revamps, and elseworlds out there, it really doesn't faze me when a character acts a little differently.

I think in Identity Crisis, he told a really interesting story, with great character bits, and an underwhelming payoff. It still kept me interested more than many of the superhero comics out there.

I thought JLA #1 was really good too.

ChairthrowerLad

09-07-2006, 12:28 PM

*hopes this doesn't degenerate into more Identity Crisis bashing*

Fair enough, I will keep further observations to myself...

Speaking of which, I enjoyed Identity Crisis, and the first two issues of JLofA are winners, so Meltzer gets a "yes" from me :cool:

I liked them, but like I said...the characters just all seem a little off...

Suzanne

09-07-2006, 12:35 PM

No no, it's OK. I wasn't trying to bar your opinions :p It seems when this subject comes up here, things get ugly.

ChairthrowerLad

09-07-2006, 12:43 PM

The thing is, it was a great story...IF it had been done more like Watchmen, or as an elseworlds or something...there are just to many plot problems...

Alls I am saying is that I want to be invited to the next superhero convention where they show each other their secret identities...

As far as story telling, I mean, it was pretty good, imho...

Matt Algren

09-07-2006, 12:46 PM

It seems when this subject comes up here, things get ugly.
How dare you say that things get ugly?!? Things do NOT get ugly!!! YOU ARE WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!!! :evilangry :mad:

Wait a minute...

Did you call me ugly?!? YOU CALLED ME UGLY, DIDN'T YOU?!? I DEMAND SATISFACTION!!! PISTOLS AT DAWN!!! VENGENCE WILL BE MINE!!!!! :evilangry :mad:

The Shadow

09-07-2006, 12:56 PM

ARGH!

How the hell does Jean Loring know Robin's secret identity?!!?

...or anyone else's identity for that matter...
And that's what I meant when I said that it gets worse! I can MAYBE understand the heroes knowing each others... but I cannot imagine Ray would tell Jean Batman's (cause we all know how paranoid he is) let alone Robin's!

The Shadow

09-07-2006, 12:59 PM

Oh, ChairthrowerLad... the end is even WORSE!

Who did it and why the body was burned... it's all in there... and it's not good at all.

Bat-Mite

09-07-2006, 01:49 PM

As far as story telling, I mean, it was pretty good, imho...

I am sorry to turn this thread into Identity Crisis bashing, but when people say the storytelling was good... well, that just can't be allowed.

The storytelling was just not good. Even if we ignore the characterizations all the characters in this story had before IdC, even if we don't care about the rape and deaths of so many characters, even if we look at this book with a clinical heartless eye and we ignore every DCU story that came before it as if IdC exists only in the complete vacuum of the space time continuum, it is still crap.

I am not telling you that you shouldn't like it; I am just saying the storytelling is in fact very bad. Just because someone likes something, it doesn't mean you have to be blind to the errors.

The story was basically a murder mystery, but horribly done. A good murder mystery presents a case, presents the clues and then dazzles you by revealing the murder while you slap yourself in the face yelling "Darn! Can't believe I didn't see it coming." IdC does none of that. IdC starts with an impossible murder where an assassin had managed to get inside one of the safest houses in the world and burned a woman to dead. Several superheroes get in there and search the place, not finding anything at all, not even a smell in the case of Animal Man. And in the end it was just Atom's wife who went crazy and apparently always carries a freaking flame thrower in her purse. We are not talking about Agatha Christie's Murder on the Orient Express here.

Now, I know Meltzer said the Whodunit is not the important part of the story, but then one has to ask why the heck write a murder mystery if the identity of the killer is not even an important part of the story? It would be like making a Street Fighter game where the important part is the music, or making a police procedural movie where the important part is food decoration.

Cayman

09-07-2006, 01:57 PM

Archer Quest - YES! :)

Identity Crisis - NO! :evilangry

JLA - Promising :cool:

ChairthrowerLad

09-07-2006, 02:08 PM

by the story telling being good...I meant pacing and the way he swiched from heros to villians in order to give both sides of the story...

I made it known how I feel about the plot holes earlier

Archer Quest - YES! :)

Identity Crisis - NO! :evilangry

JLA - Promising :cool:

That is close to how I feel now...

more like:

Archer Quest - close...

Identity Crisis - not close...

JLA - promising...

Bat-Mite

09-07-2006, 02:31 PM

by the story telling being good...I meant pacing and the way he swiched from heros to villians in order to give both sides of the story...

I made it known how I feel about the plot holes earlier

Oh, it may have some good points here and there, but when the center of the story is a mess, I don't think the storytelling can be called good even if the cherry on top was particularly pretty.

ChairthrowerLad

09-07-2006, 02:49 PM

Oh, it may have some good points here and there, but when the center of the story is a mess, I don't think the storytelling can be called good even if the cherry on top was particularly pretty.

Fair enough...

ChairthrowerLad

09-07-2006, 03:05 PM

Oh, ChairthrowerLad... the end is even WORSE!

Who did it and why the body was burned... it's all in there... and it's not good at all.

Jean Loring: Well, I think I will just hop inside Sue Dinby's brain and go for a little walk. In fact, going on a walk on her brain might bring me closer to the estanged husband I left.

Sue Dinby: Ack! I'm dead.

Jean Loring: O shoot! Well, good thing I brought my FLAMETHROWER.

Old School League: It must have been Dr. Light! Listen here, Wally and Kyle, we brainwashed Dr. Light because we had to. .....and Batman...

Kyle Raynor: Dur, I'm an idiot!

Jean Loring: Oops, I accidentally spilled the beans to Ray Palmer, the Atom, but he will understand right?

The Atom: TO ARKHAM WITH YOU! Goodbye cruel world...

DCU: PHEW...glad thats over...but oh my goodness, we are so angst filled...

Ok I got carried away, but you see what I'm saying.

The Shadow

09-07-2006, 03:21 PM

Ok I got carried away, but you see what I'm saying.
Bat-Mite summed it up rather well.

Why did she HAPPEN to have a flamethrower? Just in case??? Cummon.

Batman ACCIDENTALLY stumbles onto the answer?!?!?!?!?!

The "I did it because I love you" schtick sucked hard.

She knows all the big secret ID's of everyone (inexplicably mind you) and so with that knowledge... they put her in ARKHAM ASYLUM wih all Batman's rogues???

The entire JLA looked like amateur's fighting Deathstroke. All Kyle had to do was put a bubble around Slade... fight over. Instead he looks like a rookie. I know Slade uses 90% of his brain... but there's no way Wally should have been touched. At all. Taking out Zatanna was OK... but Hawkman? Nah... too much PIS.

The death of Jack Drake was well done though... it was a moving scene.

ChairthrowerLad

09-07-2006, 03:53 PM

The entire JLA looked like amateur's fighting Deathstroke. All Kyle had to do was put a bubble around Slade... fight over. Instead he looks like a rookie. I know Slade uses 90% of his brain... but there's no way Wally should have been touched. At all. Taking out Zatanna was OK... but Hawkman? Nah... too much PIS.

yeah if Deathstroke could cut through the JLA like that then..why was he fighting the Teen Titans for all those years?

The death of Jack Drake was well done though... it was a moving scene.

Agreed...poor Tim, but things are working out for him now...kinda

Captain Jim

09-07-2006, 08:08 PM

Okay, I know this is new for Chairthrower Lad, but the rest of us have hashed this in and out over and over again. No point in repeating it all and stirring up the controversy once again.

Patriot07

09-08-2006, 05:17 PM

Anyway...as for Manhunter. Even though I dropped it awhile back. Sorry to see it go. I have a tremendous amount of respect for Marc Andreyko. Especially since he expressed how much Dr. Light makes him sick, and that he would like to see Kate take him on.

Sorry to say, but I'd question the sanity of anyone who Dr. Light doesn't make sick. That was kind of the point of the character.

Mia

09-08-2006, 05:23 PM

Sorry to say, but I'd question the sanity of anyone who Dr. Light doesn't make sick. That was kind of the point of the character.

Huh:rolleyes:

You would be surprised how many people think that what those Leaugers did to Light was wrong. Personally I think he got off lightly (no pun intended). Personally I know many men (and women) whom if their wife/girlfriend/daughter/mother/aunt had been attacked by Light the way that he attacked Sue Dibney. Well....to paraphrase a Sidney Sheldon character 'Castration would just be the beggining'.

Guts/Batman

09-08-2006, 06:26 PM

Sorry to say, but I'd question the sanity of anyone who Dr. Light doesn't make sick. That was kind of the point of the character.

May be the point but I am still very insulted by the character and the fact that the character still hasn't been punished is a travesty.

Armless Penguin

09-08-2006, 06:48 PM

----

OT:

May be the point but I am still very insulted by the character and the fact that the character still hasn't been punished is a travesty.

To play Devil's advocate, the guy had his mind and personality completely warped—how is that not punishment?

Now fair punishment and/or punishment for what he has been doing since is a different matter.

You would be surprised how many people think that what those Leaugers did to Light was wrong. Personally I think he got off lightly (no pun intended). Personally I know many men (and women) whom if their wife/girlfriend/daughter/mother/aunt had been attacked by Light the way that he attacked Sue Dibney. Well....to paraphrase a Sidney Sheldon character 'Castration would just be the beggining'.

Well, thank goodness not everybody believes in gratuitous violence to "solve" problems!

----

Now as far as this topic goes, I still really don't want to see Manhunter canceled, but oh has it always been lurking on the edge, :-/

carabas

09-09-2006, 03:17 AM

May be the point but I am still very insulted by the character and the fact that the character still hasn't been punished is a travesty.

Well, he has been punished. Magical lobotomy and such...

Mia

09-09-2006, 03:39 AM

----

OT:

To play Devil's advocate, the guy had his mind and personality completely warped—how is that not punishment?

Now fair punishment and/or punishment for what he has been doing since is a different matter.

Well, thank goodness not everybody believes in gratuitous violence to "solve" problems!

----

I don't see anything to do with gratuitious violence, by having Dr. Light face the consequences of what he has done and being brought to justice. To me rape and pedophelia are the most horrible crimes on earth. I just don't understand how people can be more concerned about the welfare of a rapist than they are of his victim.

ChthonicSpirit

09-09-2006, 04:50 AM

I don't see anything to do with gratuitious violence, by having Dr. Light face the consequences of what he has done and being brought to justice. To me rape and pedophelia are the most horrible crimes on earth. I just don't understand how people can be more concerned about the welfare of a rapist than they are of his victim.

Hmmm. My opinion on that issue may sound a little conflicted to some people. I think that what the Justice Leaguers did was wrong and not enough.

Killing him, that I could have understood. Torturing him for several weeks and then letting a recovered Sue Dibny decide his final fate, that I could have understood. The mindwipe - that I can't understand at all. It's too 'Clockwork Orange'. And the worst thing about it was that it denied Sue any chance to see justice done. There was no way they could put him on trial for a crime he wasn't aware of comitting, and so they apparently just let him walk. WTF?

BTW, can anyone say for sure if Manhunter is being cancelled? I would be sad to see that happen. I don't think she can be integrated into any other book without either changing the character, or having constant conflict with the other book's characters. Kate Spencer hunts to kill, and what other science heroes think of that has been done to death already.

*Fnark* Just realized I typed 'science hero'. Been readin' Promethea too much. :rolleyes: :D

Young Avenger

09-09-2006, 01:52 PM

Armless Penguin

09-09-2006, 02:18 PM

Mia

09-09-2006, 03:50 PM

Dr. Light is a pedophile now? When did this happen?

Re-read my post. I never wrote, or implied that Dr. Light was a pedophile. I posted that as far as I am concerned rape and pedophelia are the most horrible crimes on earth.

I was referring to your saying that some people would castrate him. !

Yes. And how is that gratuitious violence?

I'll answer anyway though: it's not that I'm "more concerned about the welfare of a rapist than of his victim," it's that I'm not a hypocrite, and I don't believe in the [i]raping of one's mind as a valid form of punishment or rehabilitation. Bah! Those morals get you every time!

Sounds more like self-righteousness and naivety than anything having to do with morals. Do you really think that Dr. Light was capable of being rehabilitation? Did you read Identity Crisis where he was bragging about going after other women?

The Batman

09-10-2006, 10:57 AM

Buried Alien, you have summed up in a rather lengthy but very insightful post why the post Crisis D.C. sucked for so long.

As far as I'm concerned, Batman 217 happened how it happened in 1969. The 20 years between 1986 and now didn't.

I've mindwiped everything from Jason Todd being a shit who deserved to die to the anal rape of Sue Dibney...it's all gone.

you know i really don't think that Sue was anally raped.

TheTen-EyedMan

09-10-2006, 07:14 PM

you know i really don't think that Sue was anally raped.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a172/Drtzintzin/dibney.jpg

Doctor Arthur Light...you decide.

May well be just me being outrageous.

The Batman

09-10-2006, 08:12 PM

given the positions it's possible sure, but unless otherwise stated i'm not going to assume it's anal rape.

i guess that means you're just being outrageous.

Captain Jim

09-10-2006, 09:06 PM

BTW, can anyone say for sure if Manhunter is being cancelled? I would be sad to see that happen. I don't think she can be integrated into any other book without either changing the character, or having constant conflict with the other book's characters. Kate Spencer hunts to kill, and what other science heroes think of that has been done to death already.

It's kind of up in the air. It was cancelled and then given a reprieve of another three or so issues. What happens after that depends on how they sell.

Trusty Mutsi

04-04-2007, 09:02 AM

I just started reading "Identity Crisis" again, to get me ready for my "Infinite Crisis" reading. I just finished issue 3 (I read TPBs exclusively now), and I need to vent something:

In issue 3 Deathstroke is made to be WAYYYYY to powerful. I felt insulted in a way. I can understand suspension of disbelief, but there were WAY too many times during that battle DS should have gone down right away. I don't care how smart of fast he is, at the very start of the battle, while he was stabbing Wally (and that alone I don't believe would happen) Zatanna had PLENTY of time to simply yell "EZEERF"! Even if Deathstroke had time to take her out, there were still at least 5 other members just WATCHING, and could have taken him out. Green Arrow's supposed to be an AMAZING shot, and he can't peg Deathstroke while he's beating up the first 3-4 members on the team? I mean, he had his arrow aimed at him the for quite a while during the fight, yelling things like "Carter, look out!" Just SHOOT him!

The worst part was Green Lantern trying to PUNCH him. How often did Kyle just charge up his ring and punch someone? He usually makes a big hammer, gun, robot, etc to take out the bad guys.

And then Green Arrow stabs him in the eye. And everyone tackles him, rather than use any of their powers. Yes, I understand this was so Dr. Light would be reminded of how they tackled him on the Satallite, but still, it seemed pretty silly.

I like Brad Meltzer's writing, but he was REALLY stretching it here to make Deathstroke seem scary.

I think Batman's been made the same way. Realistically he just can't beat anyone in the DCU.

Oh, and can anyone tell me what it was that Captain Boomerang did wrong that he couldn't get any more work from the Calculator?

marshal99

04-04-2007, 09:09 AM

old complaints , been there , done that.

Trusty Mutsi

04-04-2007, 09:43 AM

old complaints , been there , done that.

Yeah, but I still had to get it out:)

PastePotPete

04-04-2007, 10:59 AM

Trusty Mutsi

04-04-2007, 11:11 AM

Everybody has ranted and raved about how this scene was crap.

I liked the scene. Thought it made sense. Didn't see a problem with it. Arguing about who could beat up who in a comics universe is ultimately futile.

I thought Meltzer's writing rationalized everything well in that fight. There was a logic to the fight. And Deathstroke still goes down. Even the JLA can have a bad day. Especially if it's a hodge-podge JLA where a lot of the members have never worked together before.

If you want to argue about Identity Crisis, wait until you get to the ending.

I've actually read everything before, but upon second reading, I needed to vent.

The ending only bothered me in how depressing it was. In fact, it's part of what made me get away from comics for a while.

That, and killing Blue Beetle in Countdown.

But now I'm giving Infinite Crisis and the countdown mini's a chance in TPB form, just to see if it gets any less depressing. If it stays dark and gritty, or if the quality gets really bad, I might say goodbye to DC and focus more on Marvel and Indie stuff.

skally19

04-04-2007, 11:28 AM

i liked the scene. deathstroke is pretty much the villian batman right? i could see batman doing all that easy

4thHorseman

04-04-2007, 11:29 AM

But now I'm giving Infinite Crisis and the countdown mini's a chance in TPB form, just to see if it gets any less depressing. If it stays dark and gritty, or if the quality gets really bad, I might say goodbye to DC and focus more on Marvel and Indie stuff.

May want to go ahead and start packing your bags

Trusty Mutsi

04-04-2007, 11:52 AM

May want to go ahead and start packing your bags

*Cries*

Really? I was hoping things might lighten up.

CYOTI

04-04-2007, 12:18 PM

Seriously for the sake of your own dignity and to avoid another loon, if you didn't like what occured in Identity Crisis then I'd advise you to just drop all the books from the major two because they are all pretty much like Identity Crisis in terms to atmosphere.

CYOTI

04-04-2007, 12:20 PM

I liked the scene. Thought it made sense. Didn't see a problem with it. Arguing about who could beat up who in a comics universe is ultimately futile. I think Kurt Busiek said it best, all comic book fights are rigged. Rigged by the editors, writer and artists.

Justin D.

04-04-2007, 02:02 PM

If it stays dark and gritty, or if the quality gets really bad, I might say goodbye to DC and focus more on Marvel and Indie stuff.

Quality is up to you, but Marvel hasn't become any lighter than DC has. Indie books aren't always known for staying away from dark areas either. There are books out there that aren't always so grimly moody though. Blue Beetle, as has been touted in a recent thread, is one of those books. There's The Spirit by Darwyn Cooke and company at DC. Marvel has (or had, whatever) Nextwave. The first volume of that is already out in trade form, and the next comes out in July. If you want to just stick with DC, there's also All-Star Superman, Green Lantern Corps (one of my favorite books right now), Shadowpact, and the Shazam: Monster Society of Evil four-issue miniseries. Also, the new Doctor Fate book is supposed to premiere in two weeks.

Shellhead

04-04-2007, 03:33 PM

I thought that part of the point of the whole Infinite Crisis reboot was to get away from the dark stuff and get back to more heroic action. Batdick is gone, but otherwise, things still look pretty dark. When it comes to in-continuity DC titles, I'm down to just JSA and Teen Titans right now, plus I am sticking it out with 52 until the end, though I may skip the World War tie-ins. Although I do enjoy these comics, I wish that DC would tone down the vile stuff a little. What happened to Isis in a recent issue of 52 was bad enough, but the visuals really wallowed in the disgusting details, for panel after panel after panel. Stoppit, goddamnit, we got the point after the first panel or two.

Citizen V

04-04-2007, 05:23 PM

I thought Identity Crisis was great,a little bit better than Infinite Crisis.

Trusty Mutsi

04-05-2007, 04:55 AM

I think Kurt Busiek said it best, all comic book fights are rigged. Rigged by the editors, writer and artists.

VERY good point:)

Quality is up to you, but Marvel hasn't become any lighter than DC has. Indie books aren't always known for staying away from dark areas either. There are books out there that aren't always so grimly moody though. Blue Beetle, as has been touted in a recent thread, is one of those books. There's The Spirit by Darwyn Cooke and company at DC. Marvel has (or had, whatever) Nextwave. The first volume of that is already out in trade form, and the next comes out in July. If you want to just stick with DC, there's also All-Star Superman, Green Lantern Corps (one of my favorite books right now), Shadowpact, and the Shazam: Monster Society of Evil four-issue miniseries. Also, the new Doctor Fate book is supposed to premiere in two weeks.

ANOTHER good point! I hadn't really thought of that. I also think I should focus on keeping up with writers/artists I like, rather than companies.