IDENTITY CRISIS: Questions & Discussion *Spoilers*

[Son of Shadow]

Huh? No, it makes absolutely no sense. If the theme of a work is, for example, "Swimming with a buddy is important," then it makes no sense for the story to end with the main character's swimming buddy trying to drown him.

If a story ends that way, then maybe the theme isn't "Swimming with a buddy is important," but rather "Make sure you trust your swimming buddy."

As I see it, IC is about a group of people who want to protect the world from monsters. However, they also want to live full lives with real human connections. Some do it in secret like Superman, while others do it in public, like Elongated Man. So what happens when those monsters threaten these human connections? Well, the heroes' reactions become extreme and … unheroic. What's more, in fighting those monsters, the heroes' own relationships can become frayed, as Ray and Jean's did. This is something that many Policemen, Firemen, and Social Activists have to deal with: By saving the world, are you losing yourself?

Jean's actions were not random. The people she attacked were the loved ones of heroes. She did not do it just to reunite with her husband, but to prove a point: In trying to save the world, the people they hurt the most are the ones closest to them.

Put it this way: Jean make a heck of a lot more than Shadow Thief :)

[the*shpongelettes]

Jean's "access" to identities, as displayed by an attack against a public secret ID? Bolstered up by another attack on a public ID, followed by a death that served no purpose and made no logical sense? The attack was motivated by a midguided attempt at romance, not by any of this secret ID crap.

The Shpongelettes believe that Jean acted upon the other people (including herself) because she had to find a way to attract Ray back. The identity conflict was so obvious to us: If you are a superhero you better have a secret SECRET identity because even those around you might one day turn against you ( a typical trope of the secret hero narrative: the danger from inside). It amazes us that Z-man has not taken this into consideration. It is a metaphor for certain behaviours in this dimension: Those who come out are more succeptible to being attacked or hurt -- The people who don't hide, are, automatically, putting themselves in risk. Isn't that why Superman wears glasses? Isn't that why Clark Kent exists? Isn't that why Bruce Wayne still exists? We believe Meltzer wanted to bring this point of discussion to the table but most people rather discuss how lame Jean was, or things of that caliber.

Do deaths serve a purpose? Well, let's consider this sick idea as true; in this story, they did serve a purpose: frighten the heroes (especially Ray), make Ray return to Jean and also hide the one death under the cloud of serial killer.

Now, logical sense is an illusion that Z-man has. First, because there is not just one logic (and if you want to be picky about it, the lack of logic IS in itself a form of logic (degree zero of logic)). Second, just because Z-man was unable to see the logic behind it, it doesn't mean that it didn't have any.



Why not? That would have been "the victory of personal ethics over morality," as you so put it, and it would have been every bit the emotional response. Apparently you can talk the talk, but you can't walk the walk. The rest of your meaningless words which you yourself don't even believe are probably unneccessary.

Oh dear. Along with eating one's buggers and smoking clove cigarettes, the act of deriding that which one doesn't have the intellec to reach is a very very unhealthy habit. Meaning needs a type of leveling of competence, and in this case, Z-man was not competent enough to understand what was said. Alas, from moment one, Z-man sees the Shpongelettes as entities who should/could/would be convinced by his arguments.

ARGUMENTS DON'T WORK WITH AFFECTS. If Z-man had read the first, inaugural text from the Shpongelettes, he'd see CLEARLY the reasons why the Shpongelettes loved IC and he would have seen the sheer unnecessity of trying to argue. Instead, he'd be invited to clearly state the reasons why he was negatively affected by IC and wouldn't waste his time with very very tired clichés about walking and talking ( actions that the shpongelettes can do, and very very gracefully, mind you)


There are several different responses that I would have accepted:
The moral response, aka the victory of ethics over emotion: "Mind wiping is wrong, killing is wrong, we have no choice but to turn him over to the legal system"
the logical response, the proper response to a situation taking into account all ramifications: "There's no guarrantee that mind manipulation will be nearly permanent enough, it will prevent him from facing the justice he deserves to face, and killing him keeps him from doing it to anyone else."
And the emotional response: "He hurt and violated our friend, lets kill him."

Isn't it cute when heroes like Z-man are wired to only accept a set or responses? It's especially cute when one of the expected responses doesn't come through and the person who expects the answers short-circuits and goes 404-file not found.


Mindwipes was neither emotional, logical, or moral. It was the wrong choice. And these characters would have realized it.


BRasvajdsriewhuith-- sorry, Z-man's logic has just broken itself. The moment the word "wrong" appeared we have the moral plane in action; however "mindwipes are not moral..." therefore, invalid argument.

The Shpongelettes walk the walk and talk the talk.


Okay, so in your corner of the universe, the only reason what Dr. Light did was wrong was because Sue Dibny was crying at the end? And date rape is okay because no one is crying at the end and nobody needs to get physically hurt?

No, no. In IDENTITY CRISIS, the reason why it was "wrong" was because Sue did not seduce, permit, allow, like, etc the sex that Dr. Light forced her to do it. Crying is not an indication because when some of the shpongelettes have enjoyable (VERY enjoyable sex) they cry. Crying is not necessarily an indication because different types of affect can cause tears.

Probably, Z-man didn't read the parts where she refuses, runs from and fears Dr. Light's advances, because THAT is the indication of not wanting to have sex. In those emotional moments, crying is but a flag that helps demonstrate the refusal disgust and negative affects that the rape had.

The Z-man is invited to list HIS reasons for the negative affects, and not try to argue over the shpongelettes' reasons.

The Shpongelettes
( Martina Navratilova, Chris Evert-Lloyd, Arantxa Sanchez)

[Captain Jim]

If you are a superhero you better have a secret SECRET identity because even those around you might one day turn against you

But, see, that's part of my problem. Tim Drake *did* have a secret SECRET identity--arguable the MOST secret identity in the DC universe. His own girlfriend, Spoiler, never knew who he was until just recently, when Batman told her. All those years on Young Justice, his own team-mates never knew who he really was. For crying out loud, even Oracle--the most all-knowing person in the DCU--didn't know who Robin was until relatively recently. And yet we're supposed to believe that the ex-wife of an ex-member of the JLA knew? Even though Tim wasn't even Robin back when Atom was on the JLA? Does not compute.

[Mr. Jip]

All i have to say is, everyone should JUST COME OUT.

[Evan Waters]

But, see, that's part of my problem. Tim Drake *did* have a secret SECRET identity--arguable the MOST secret identity in the DC universe. His own girlfriend, Spoiler, never knew who he was until just recently, when Batman told her. All those years on Young Justice, his own team-mates never knew who he really was. For crying out loud, even Oracle--the most all-knowing person in the DCU--didn't know who Robin was until relatively recently. And yet we're supposed to believe that the ex-wife of an ex-member of the JLA knew? Even though Tim wasn't even Robin back when Atom was on the JLA? Does not compute.

My problem with this theme is, doesn't it mean that by not having a secret SECRET identity, Ralph Dibny is partially responsible for Sue's death? It sort of undermines the entire set-up they had in all their stories, making it seem like this sort of thing had to happen to one or both of them eventually because they weren't careful enough.

[DoubleWide]

Perhaps I'm getting too old to be reading most comics, I'm 45, but Identity Crisis didn't excite me. I avoided most of the articles hyping the story because nothing could live up to all the promotion. Perhaps its just cynicisin on my part but after the "shocking" revelations, there is usually a HUGE letdown when they try to follow up on it. I'm still wavering on Day of Vengance (I love Ragman) and The Omac Project.

When Hal Jordan went insane, destroying the Green Lantern Corps and killing several Green Lanterns he became Paralax, a kick-ass villian. But before Zero Hour and after, he was pretty pathetic, always whining how he way delt a hard blow by life and he just wanted to make everything better. How was he rewarded for mass murder? He became the Specter.

They tried making Eclipso from a fourth rate villain to a person to be feared and only suceeding into making him a third rate villian.

Bloodlines was supposed to introduce a new group of heroes into the DC Universe. After a few short lived series and some mini series, they are nearly forgotten.

I'll quit whineing now. Got any cheese? :p

[richjb77]

Lets face it..we all know that this was DC comics way to "marvel" the characters...they gave many characters lives and not just masks...The characters became human for once and fought amongst themselves which rarely happens..

...DC characters have always been about the costume and not the person wearing the costume..IT is the reason why they can switch the flash or green lantern and not have any problems...
..you so much as suggest another Captain America or Spider-man and the world goes nuts..

IC made DC characters human...they gave more of them feeling and you actually felt for them...up until now the only human characters was green arrow...everyone else was flawless...

Now we see the real sides of the heroes and finally see that they are not all goody goody superfriends...

IC did a great

[richjb77]

Lets face it..we all know that this was DC comics way to "marvel" the characters...they gave many characters lives and not just masks...The characters became human for once and fought amongst themselves which rarely happens..

...DC characters have always been about the costume and not the person wearing the costume..IT is the reason why they can switch the flash or green lantern and not have any problems...
..you so much as suggest another Captain America or Spider-man and the world goes nuts..

IC made DC characters human...they gave more of them feeling and you actually felt for them...up until now the only human characters was green arrow...everyone else was flawless...

Now we see the real sides of the heroes and finally see that they are not all goody goody superfriends...

IC did a great


I wasn't done..

That why I find it funny that people are saying that New Avengers is just a JLA rip off..WRONG...because in the DC world everybody on the JLA gets along great...It's like church or something...The original avengers ( save hawkeye) all more or less got along..

Bendis has taken a team of people who are going to have serious conflict..which is so different from the DC universe..

Spider-man, wolverine, luke cage, sentry...these people barely take orders from anyone...there will be conflict..

In DC everyone was always buddy buddy until Identity Crisis...

Now for once it meant it when it said...this will change the DC universe...I think it has and i love it!!!

this time I am done

[Evan Waters]

Lets face it..we all know that this was DC comics way to "marvel" the characters...they gave many characters lives and not just masks...The characters became human for once and fought amongst themselves which rarely happens..

...DC characters have always been about the costume and not the person wearing the costume...

Except during the Giffen/De Matteis run on JLA, of course.

[richjb77]

Except during the Giffen/De Matteis run on JLA, of course.


of course..the only exception to the rule

[pennywisdom]

The other day, I was reading the Ultimate Daredevil and Elektra mini by Greg Rucka and Salvador Larocca. In this mini (which takes place in the Ultimate Universe, of course) Elektra goes to college for the first time and has to come to terms with the realities of adulthood and taking responsibility. One of her friends is raped by the rich son of a prominent businessman. The investigation is halted, however, because this kid has powerful friends with a lot of influence. So, Elektra must take the law into her own hands. Matt Murdock, however, believes that the law must be upheld and has to fight Elektra despite his loving her.

Something occured to me: Marvel does a lot of business by writing really captivating stories using adult themes. When this was published, I didn't hear word ONE about the rape scene, despite the fact that the Ultimate line is designed by Marvel for the purpose of gaining new, unfamiliar (and maybe even young) readers. No one called for a boycott. The rape was handled much in the way Sue Dibny's rape in Identity Crisis was handled.

Many other adult themes are brought to the fore in Marvel comics, as well. Morality, for example. Ethics is a huge issue for characters like Daredevil, Elektra, Magneto, the Punisher... I could go on and on. The very basis for much characterization (not to mention story elements and plot points) is rooted in the fact that these characters have "gray areas" that the writers are willing to explore. When you look at DC characters from the same perspective, we see that the characters really aren't allowed to stretch out and be human. We see them struggle to come to terms with their own code of ethics and we become outraged because these are characters that we grew up with, and we don't want to see writers besmirch their good name with an evil act.

Now, I'm NEVER going to say that violence, murder, rape and evil are good things that should be promoted in comic books. My only point is that it's really hard to relate to adults without discussing adult situations, and it's really hard to discuss adult situations with this element of censorship hanging over your head. Why is there this double standard? Why has the comic book industry in general been able to move forward and produce thought-provoking, socially conscious material while DC fans want to remain mired in childish, Silver Age sensibilities? I have to give DC a lot of credit where it's due.... Watchmen, DKR, the entire Vertigo line and many, many other titles (Green Arrow for example) have made progress in this area. The bulk of DC's mainstream titles, however, are under intense and unfair scrutiny among comic book fans.

The writers and characters are held to an impossible standard. We live in a society that produces "R" rated movies, and obscene records. Of course, this is all part of freedom of speech. Most of those movies and records are enjoyed by people who decry Identity Crisis. Why, then, shouldn't the writers at DC be allowed similar creative liberties without suffering negative backlash?

Again, I am never, and would never advocate smut. I would never advocate kids reading material not appropriate. I'm just wondering aloud why DC can't explore adult themes in the proper context and why people are so up in arms about a comic that isn't any more offensive than what Marvel produces in an average month.

[RedBaron]

Part of the backlash against Identity Crisis and DC is based on the fact that, unlike in the Elektra miniseries, in IDC the rape victim was not some unknown, new character. It was Sue, and that set off a lot of fans, I think, because the rape of an established character and the destruction of a happy relationship untouched by the despair and gritty nature of nineties-era comics and deconstruction equals, for fans, the rape of their childhood and destruction of the fantasy of comics that people want to get back to. Also, the rape in Elektra takes place in the Ultimate universe, and is removed from the bulk of major Marvel continuity. Sue’s rape in IDC has implications for all the DC Universe and can’t be easily ignored, especially if DC Countdown #1 will signal an editorial shift regarding the DC Universe towards the tone of story telling in IDC.

I think the bemoaning of IDC got way the fug out of hand. I thought the rape in the Elektra series was predictable and it played out in a more positive way (with the victim learning to fight for herself) but by doing so was very hackneyed. In IDC, the rape was unexpected, more violent in its insinuation, and had more emotional consequence. For one, I did not mind that aspect of IDC at all. However, I hate that the series ended on a badly constructed mystery, thus not validating the importance of the bad things that came about. In the end, it seemed like sensationalism for the sake of sensationalism.

Don’t forget that his followed on the heels of the brutal torture and death of Spoiler in the Batman War Games crossover. For many, I think they see DC as killing and putting characters through hell as a cheap way of telling a story and creating drama, where as Marvel can be seen as being too conservative, what with all their teen books, and therefore flying under the radar.

[Expletive Deleted]

I don't really see a double standard, here. If Marvel tried to gritty up, say, Power Pack, in an equivalent manner to what DC did to Elongated Man, I'm sure they'd get the same reaction.

Daredevil and Elektra's movies were both rated PG-13. The Justice Leauge's cartoon is rated TV-Y7. And they put them on lunchboxes.

[pennywisdom]

I agree that sensationalism for the sake of sensationalism is wrong, but I felt IDC was a relevant comic. Think about it, when was the last time the JLA was really backed up against the wall? When was the last time they had a problem they couldn't punch their way through? I think it forced them to make decisions, acknowledge their humanity, and look their own demons square in the eye. In DC comics, this is a real shocker, but I happen to think it's necessary if you're going to tell good stories.

Part of the backlash against Identity Crisis and DC is based on the fact that, unlike in the Elektra miniseries, in IDC the rape victim was not some unknown, new character. It was Sue, and that set off a lot of fans, I think, because the rape of an established character and the destruction of a happy relationship untouched by the despair and gritty nature of nineties-era comics and deconstruction equals, for fans, the rape of their childhood and destruction of the fantasy of comics that people want to get back to.
I agree. I also believe that if we want to tell meaningful, relevant stories with these characters, we have to stop being so precious with them. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean brutal slayings or vicious rape scenes on a regular basis. But something bad has to happen eventually. There has to be some elemnt of conflict. Something has to come along and alter the status quo in some way. I really believe comic book fans are too scared to let that happen, and stagnation is the result.

Excellent points, btw. :)

[pennywisdom]

I don't really see a double standard, here. If Marvel tried to gritty up, say, Power Pack, in an equivalent manner to what DC did to Elongated Man, I'm sure they'd get the same reaction.

Daredevil and Elektra's movies were both rated PG-13. The Justice Leauge's cartoon is rated TV-Y7. And they put them on lunchboxes.
Are you admitting that DC characters are for kids and Marvel characters are not? Are you satisfied with that? I'm not being a smartass, I'm just wondering if I'm reading you correctly.

[RedBaron]

In DC comics, this is a real shocker, but I happen to think it's necessary if you're going to tell good stories.

I agree as well, although I can see why people are against this. I think people are worried about how shallow stories can become if and when they rely on sensational violence and shockers. In the previous ten years, comics really weren't that fun. They became more grim and violent, and they were comparable shallow stories where there was no consequence for violence. I still think comic books, especially superhero comics, have lost that sense of fun an adventure. If so, should kids be reading comic books? Does the JLA cartoon lead kids into something like IDC, which has no mature warning label? Or, on the other hand, do kids even read comics in a substantial way anymore, and if they don't, why not cater to more adult fans?

For one, I read stuff like Eric Powell's The Goon to get that sense of fun that may be missing from any serious comics I read. I’d like to see more fun and adventure in comics but, on the other hand, I'm not one who wants to see us fall back into a Silver age silliness of Rainbow Batmen and Lois Lane trying to marry Superman every issue, if you know what I mean.

But something bad has to happen eventually. There has to be some elemnt of conflict. Something has to come along and alter the status quo in some way. I really believe comic book fans are too scared to let that happen, and stagnation is the result.

As long as it isn't overblown and they can balance it with fun and adventure (I think DC has a natural balance if you play up the fun and adventure in Superman with the seriousness of urban issues in Batman), and as long as terrible acts of violence, by both heroes and villains, are shown to have consequences (as they did in IDC), I'm all for it. People just need to calm the hell down, I think.

[Forsaken_One]

I'm wondering, what titles are you specifically referencing as "childish, Silver Age sensibilities?" You point out some DC comics that aren't childish to which I'd add Hard Time, Ex Machina, Manhunter, Bloodhound, Deadshot, and even JSA to an extent. But which characters don't have grey areas in your opinion? Batman seems to struggle with his code a lot these days as well as his inability to relate personally, Green Lantern (at least Kyle) had a lot of grey areas and while those grey areas generally didn't go the the extent of some Marvel characters (he didn't, for example, destroy a world or two) they're still there.

So are you going by any specific examples of DC being childish or are you just generalizing based on the cartoons or what you remember?

[Forefinger]

I think that a BIG difference between Marvel and DC and the fans reactions are that Marvel comics have always been character based, behind the mask, and DCU has mainly been about Iconic heroes, not so much about the people, but their costumes and powers. I think that's why so many people prefer Kyle to Hal, because Kyle was written in a time where his character aspect was played up. Most of Hal's 50 or so years as a character were just about his costume, powers, and a different adventure/bad guy every month. I think that most people were just upset that IC made their heroes a little dirtier with the whole rape and then mindwipe thing.

[Arvandor]

Part of the backlash against Identity Crisis and DC is based on the fact that, unlike in the Elektra miniseries, in IDC the rape victim was not some unknown, new character. It was Sue, and that set off a lot of fans, I think, because the rape of an established character and the destruction of a happy relationship untouched by the despair and gritty nature of nineties-era comics and deconstruction equals, for fans, the rape of their childhood and destruction of the fantasy of comics that people want to get back to. Also, the rape in Elektra takes place in the Ultimate universe, and is removed from the bulk of major Marvel continuity. Sue’s rape in IDC has implications for all the DC Universe and can’t be easily ignored, especially if DC Countdown #1 will signal an editorial shift regarding the DC Universe towards the tone of story telling in IDC.

I think the bemoaning of IDC got way the fug out of hand. I thought the rape in the Elektra series was predictable and it played out in a more positive way (with the victim learning to fight for herself) but by doing so was very hackneyed. In IDC, the rape was unexpected, more violent in its insinuation, and had more emotional consequence. For one, I did not mind that aspect of IDC at all. However, I hate that the series ended on a badly constructed mystery, thus not validating the importance of the bad things that came about. In the end, it seemed like sensationalism for the sake of sensationalism.

Don’t forget that his followed on the heels of the brutal torture and death of Spoiler in the Batman War Games crossover. For many, I think they see DC as killing and putting characters through hell as a cheap way of telling a story and creating drama, where as Marvel can be seen as being too conservative, what with all their teen books, and therefore flying under the radar.


These are good points.

The thing is, fans of Sue Dibney and the Elongated Man (what few of them there still are) remember them from stories that were fun and innocent. They were NEVER SUPPOSED to appear in a dark story about rape and murder. And that's what pissed them off.

Marvel, on the other hand, have NEVER had any such qualms. Marvel stories have a history of featuring graphic violence and extreme subject material, even in all-ages material such as Uncanny X-Men.
And Marvel fans, on the whole, like it that way.

[davids]

we find out sue had been raped. She was murdered by a heroe ex-wife who has gone nuts. Superman has lost his wife. Wonder Woman is blind and if i was kyle Ranor i would not be putting down any large down payments on a new apartment! What do you wnat to see? Robin dead again? or Hal? Superman and Lois divorcing, Clark and Diana having hot monkey sex on top of Mt Evrest? Ma and pa Kent losing the farm, Pa kent having an afair with mia walters? Lois being rapped by ultra man? no thank you! There can be to much reality in comics!

[tymac]

Another way of looking at it might be to compare the respective readerships of both titles. IDC was a hyped event with huge sales numbers and mainstream press coverage. I'd forgotten all about the Ultimate DD/ Electra mini until this thread. More people reading something will yield more people who will have a problem with what they read.

The double standard, if there is one, must come from people who read mostly DC titles. I guess the idea is that they expect Marvel to have these kinds of scenes(Marvel having the reputation of being more flawed, more real, etc.) and are surprised to have the DC icons "sullied" by "more mature" material.

[RedBaron]

... if i was kyle Ranor i would not be putting down any large down payments on a new apartment!

I think I can agree with that. :D

[Avi Green]

This subject got me to thinking, and I think it could be said that: personally, I don't read DC comics for the kind of utter grittiness that damaged their books in the late 1980's, but neither do I read Marvel comics for that kind of stuff. It's been said that Wolverine's been degenerating into problems almost similar to IC, although oddly enough, where Marvel really drew critical fire two years ago was for going overboard with biased political drivings in a lot of their books (Capt. America in MK, New X-Men, Avengers, and even Spider-Man, to name but a few).

However, when it became apparent that the Ultimate line was tossing in adult themes despite what they claimed it to be, I think they did draw some heat for that. Ultimate X-Men in particular seemed to get the most negative reception in some cases, and even the Ultimates may have gotten some for its own depiction of the Wasp and Ant-Man. But admittedly, because this is a totally different universe, that's why it may not have gotten the critical reception it would've if it took place in the regular MCU. And I do wonder: if Identity Crisis took place in an Elseworlds setting, would it have drawn less heat than it did this past autumn?

Just because it takes place in a different form of universe does not make it legitimate or less worthy of critical focus, and while it's certainly the company's right to publish and explore adult themes in their books, if they do it the wrong way, they should be taken to task for doing a disservice to everybody.

Nobody wants comics to be seen as just kiddie literature, but then neither do we want them to be seen as something worse than the porn/horror movie & video industry, where little more than mindless violence and other morally questionable acts are just arbitrarily laid out without good judgement. If they keep it up, it could eventually result in a very heavy price.

[yeoman]

I agree that sensationalism for the sake of sensationalism is wrong, but I felt IDC was a relevant comic. Think about it, when was the last time the JLA was really backed up against the wall?

How were they backed against a wall? If Ollie and Carter were written in character Light wouldn't have lived to be mind wiped.

[Expletive Deleted]

I don't really see a double standard, here. If Marvel tried to gritty up, say, Power Pack, in an equivalent manner to what DC did to Elongated Man, I'm sure they'd get the same reaction.

Daredevil and Elektra's movies were both rated PG-13. The Justice Leauge's cartoon is rated TV-Y7. And they put them on lunchboxes.Are you admitting that DC characters are for kids and Marvel characters are not? Are you satisfied with that? I'm not being a smartass, I'm just wondering if I'm reading you correctly.Not at all. I'm talking about the characters you used in your initial statement, not about the companies in general. I'd thought my Power Pack reference would have made that clear.

JLA (as a whole - individual members doing their own thing is a separate issue) has a long history of more kid friendly stories and is currently being marketed towards kids. Daredevil has a long history of more teen and adult friendly fare and is currently being marketed towards those groups.

IDC wasn't out of place in the DCU in general as much as it was out of place with that specific set of characters. I'd have had no problem with it as a Batman story (the new movie is set to be PG-13, I think) or an Outsiders story or something along those lines, but the mix of characters that were actually used made it problematic.

Likewise, an IDC-type story would be pretty out of bounds in a title like . . . let's say SPIDER-GIRL.

[stealthwise]

I think I can agree with that. :D

Rayner's not going anywhere. I'm pretty sure that Johns has stated that he doesn't intend to just kill Kyle off, specifically because it brings about the same problems with his fans (and yes, there are some), as they had when Hal was turned into a psychopathic villain and then killed off.

With the rebuilding of the Corps, there's bound to be the need for more GLs, including Kyle.

[Indigo Al]

Now, I'm NEVER going to say that violence, murder, rape and evil are good things that should be promoted in comic books. My only point is that it's really hard to relate to adults without discussing adult situations, and it's really hard to discuss adult situations with this element of censorship hanging over your head. Why is there this double standard? Why has the comic book industry in general been able to move forward and produce thought-provoking, socially conscious material while DC fans want to remain mired in childish, Silver Age sensibilities?

I think you might see what it is that DCU fans value when Grant Morrison's 2005 projects - All Star Superman, 7 Soldiers of Victory, etc - come out. Not "childish Silver Age sensibilities" but just breathtaking raw imagination and a positive viewpoint.

[Lurker]

JLA (as a whole - individual members doing their own thing is a separate issue) has a long history of more kid friendly stories and is currently being marketed towards kids. Daredevil has a long history of more teen and adult friendly fare and is currently being marketed towards those groups.

IDC wasn't out of place in the DCU in general as much as it was out of place with that specific set of characters. I'd have had no problem with it as a Batman story (the new movie is set to be PG-13, I think) or an Outsiders story or something along those lines, but the mix of characters that were actually used made it problematic.

Likewise, an IDC-type story would be pretty out of bounds in a title like . . . let's say SPIDER-GIRL.

Spider-Girl is an all-ages title. DC has a Justice League Unlimited comic marketing the league as they are seen in the cartoon just as they do with Teen Titans Go. The themes of IDC would be very out of place in those books, but mature thems should be fair game to explore in DCU titles with the existence of the Johnny DC line so closely tied with DC's commercial projects.

[IamtheRock3]

let says instead

of Sue and Elaongated man

they use Squirel Girl and Speedball


and had a squrel girl get rape, killed while prengat


Also Aunt may goes crazy and actully set up the murder


and the Power pack was involving in some mind wipe sceme

it not Dc should be light but they pick the apart the only light and funny charcters left really

[Expletive Deleted]

DC has a Justice League Unlimited comic marketing the league as they are seen in the cartoon just as they do with Teen Titans Go. The themes of IDC would be very out of place in those books, but mature thems should be fair game to explore in DCU titles with the existence of the Johnny DC line so closely tied with DC's commercial projects.There is a distinction between the two, and certainly DCU versions of the JLA don't have to be as lily-white as the Johnny DC version. But I don't think you can say that, just because there's an explicity kid-centric title, anything else you want to do with the characters is fair game.

To be fair, I thought most of IDC was fine for a DCU title featuring the Justice League. There was just the one, obvious, gratuitous element that absolutely didn't belong.

[bannermanonemillion]

How were they backed against a wall? If Ollie and Carter were written in character Light wouldn't have lived to be mind wiped.

Not just that but the Deathstroke v. JLA scene (Flash running into a sword?) and the fact that Boomerang and Jack Drake are killed and it feels tacked on almost.

[Apathy Boy]

I've always been bothered by the "DC Double Standard." Fact is, Marvel mistreats its female characters just as much (and both companies treat their male characters equally poorly). Yet DC seems to be the only one to get labelled as "misogynistic." I can think of three reasons why this is the case:

1. Most comic readers are bigger fans of Marvel than they are DC. It's harder to be critical of something you like, so fans are more willing to be critical of DC than of Marvel.

2. Gail Simone framed the problem as a DC-only problem when she named her list "Women in Refrigerators" ten years ago. Had she named it "Women Thrown Off Bridges," we might be having a different discussion today.

3. There's a misconception that the DCU is a one-dimensional, shiny, happy world to live in. So when bad stuff happens, people take notice. And, for some reason, claim it as evidence that DC is trying to "turn" its universe all grim 'n' gritty. (Which ignores the fact that the DCU hasn't been a uniformly cheery place in more than 30 years. Roy Harper, addict, and death of Arthur Curry Jr., anyone?)

Having said that, the Sue Dibny stuff was in exceptionally poor taste and deserved to be criticized. However, 95% of the other complaints about DC and its treatment of women are completely unmerited.

[Forsaken_One]

It could also be that DC characters are more iconic and well known and, as such, when it's revealed that the Justice League did something morally ambiguous it's bigger news and thus gets more hype and more angry letters/board postings than if, say, the Avengers did something equally questionable.

The recent popular Marvel movies could have changed that though, I haven't exactly been reading studies on the most recognized superheros for the majority of people.

[The Xenos]

I think the two rapes were very different. The rape in the Elektra book wasn't as in focus, in the book or in the universe which was a new one anyway. I vaugely remember the scene, and it was distubing, but not as shocking or graphic. In IC, you see the bastard on Sue and then he replays a hologram of it. It was a major point of that issue.

And then.. do they ever *#$(ing bring it up again or talk about what happens to Sue, how she dealt with it? NO! Plus, as someone said, she was an established character and this was retconned. It was too out of the blue and sudden.. then the author doesn't deal with the ramifacations and it turns out to be a red herring. In Elektra the girl was a side character friend of the established character and there I belive you saw more of her coping with it and moving on with her life. In IC the rape was just a damn red herring and a more graphic moment of shock and disgust. Plus let's not forget they killed her in the previous issue, so this is just throwing gas on the disrepectful pyre. A new sidecharacter got more development and repect in Elektra than an established characrer who was quickly used and abused in IC.

-Xenos

[Paradox]

I think the only "double-standard" involved here is determined by what one would consider "well-done" and "poorly done".

[bannermanonemillion]

Picture this:

The big scene where Wally learns of the mindwipes.

Wally: What do you mean, Ollie?

GA: That wasn't the only vote we took.

Wally: Who else?

GA: Well.....

(flashback to Barry Allen being knocked around by boomerangs while the Trickster walked away on air-shoes)

Wally: Barry?

GA: Well, he knew too much! The League's bigger than him!

Wally: Who else!?

(flashback to a gang of Pale Martians standing around like retards while Batman lights them on fire)

Wally: Wait. That doesn't make any-

GA: That's not all.

(flashback to Wally running into Deathstroke's sword like an idiot)

Wally: Ollie, that JUST HAPPENED!!

GA: What? Oh, sorry.

(flashback to Avengers Mansion)

STRANGE: In all my studies of the Mystic Arts I can tell you that there is no such thing as Chaos Magic.

(back to the present)

Wally: Wait, don't I know that guy with the American Flag costume?

[VCreed32]

Ooh, you bastard, I had to put my hand over my mouth to keep from embarassing myself by laughing out loud in this computer lab.

[bannermanonemillion]

Ooh, you bastard, I had to put my hand over my mouth to keep from embarassing myself by laughing out loud in this computer lab.

*arms raised in victory*

SUCCESS!!

[bannermanonemillion]

The Fight With Deathstroke, aftermath.

We see Slade walking around as if in a commercial.

DS: Let's face it, being a villain these days is tough, mindwipes or not. Sometimes you need an edge. No, not steroids, or suits of armor or even 90% of your brain working like a well-oiled.....thing that works. No sometimes what you need is:

(whips out a device the size of a small calculator [pun intended])

DS:.......The Plaht Device!

SFX: Brrrrring!

DS: Want proof? Check out my most recent fight with the Justice League.

(flashback to the Fight)

DS: Now, the Plaht device instantly lowers the IQ of many of your opponents like say Black Canary, who could've used her Sonic Cry to knock me silly. Or Zatanna who could've said "ekortshtaeD and rotcoD tghiL ezeerf!" but didn't. Or let's not forget Wally running around my explosives only to fall on my sword . Heh. Classic.

(shot of Deathstroke struggling with GL)

DS: The Plaht Device even interferes with normal technology like say a GL ring. Normally, someone like GL should be able to wrap me up like I was a Fruit Roll Up and call it a day but with the Plaht Device, I was able to get into an arm-wrestling match with him and break his hand. Impossible, you say? The proof is in the kid trying to get his fingers fixed. Hah! But dont' take my word for it.

(cut to Batman)

B: Sometimes I find myself in a situation that's beyond my normal parameters and I'm forced to settle for cheating. For times like these I carry a Plaht Device. Case in point:

(the four Martians are surrounding Bruce ready to pounce, only.....don't)

Zenturion: Should we rush him?

A-Mortal: Careful, he could have anything in that belt. An umbrella, a pamphlet, anything.

Tronix: Anyone smell that?

Fluxis: Yes, one of us should avoid Taco Bell.

Tronix: No besides that.....

Zenturion: Yes, I smell it too. Let's stand here and see what that smell is....

(back to Batman)

B: Without the Plaht Device, I might have been in danger....


(later on, we see Jean Loring get put into her cell in Arkham)

Ray: Take care of her.

(Ray walks off)

Arkham Guard (to fellow guard): Why put his wife here, in nutzo central? With his connections he could've gotten her somewhere more private. Why put her here?

(Inside her cell, Jean reaches into her back pocket and pulls out her Plaht Device, winking at the camera)

SFX: Ding!

(Plaht Device, copyright Morrison, Meltzer, and Millar. Not to be used to seduce women or steal the White House.)

[Z-man]

Wally: You mindwiped BATMAN? How could you have done that to your own teammate?

Green Arrow: Give me a minute, I've got a phone call to make. *turns around, whispers into cell phone* "Hello, Zatanna? We've got another one."

[Alan2099]

Superman: I've heard about what happened to you and I'm sorry to hear it, Bruce.

Batman: Bruce? Who's this Bruce person?

Superman: This explains so much.

[bannermanonemillion]

LOL!!

That's great guys!

Thanks for the responses!!

Hilarious!

How'd you like the Plaht Device promo?

[Chuckg]

Majestic: "You know, Kal-el, your universe seemed very alien at first, but once I got to know the undercurrents and secrets of its hero community better, I realized that it's very much like mine."

Superman: "I'm glad you're feeling more at home here."

Majestic: "... Kal-el, being similar to my home universe's version of Earth is *not* a compliment."

[nanteen]

And the murderer is. . . .










BATMAN.

As the heroes surround him he looks up and says " Sue was in reality the daughter of the man who sold the gas to the truck that delivered the gun to a gun store that sold it to the guy who traded it for drugs to the guy who lost it playing dice to the guy who got knifed by the guy who shot my parents. I had to take revenge once I found that out."


Everyone looks around in confusion when Superman suddenly says " This is so stupid" He then uses his heat vision to turn Batman to ash. He turns and says " Someone call Oracle tell her to contact Nightwing and tell him to get his Bat suit out of mothballs he's up.."

[Z-man]

And the murderer is. . . .










BATMAN.

As the heroes surround him he looks up and says " Sue was in reality the daughter of the man who sold the gas to the truck that delivered the gun to a gun store that sold it to the guy who traded it for drugs to the guy who lost it playing dice to the guy who got knifed by the guy who shot my parents. I had to take revenge once I found that out."


Everyone looks around in confusion when Superman suddenly says " This is so stupid" He then uses his heat vision to turn Batman to ash. He turns and says " Someone call Oracle tell her to contact Nightwing and tell him to get his Bat suit out of mothballs he's up.."

Hey, that heat vision repelled Darkseid's Omega Effect (that's what his eye beams are called, right?), I'm sure it could suddenly undue the whole thing.

[yeoman]

Wally: You brainwashed Dr. Light?

Ollie: What? Brainwash, what kind of ***hats do we look like? Nah, Carter was washing bits of him out of that mace for weeks.

Ollie: We had Z make a *really* stupid clone so they wouldn't kick Carter out.

[ChaosBurnFlame]

Wally: You brainwashed Dr. Light?

Ollie: What? Brainwash, what kind of ***hats do we look like? Nah, Carter was washing bits of him out of that mace for weeks.

Ollie: We had Z make a *really* stupid clone so they wouldn't kick Carter out.

That's actually MORE in character for Carter.

[nanteen]

The Murder is....







Elongated man.

"Hey I'm broke this hero crap doesn't pay dick. I needed the insurance money."

"And I would have gotten away with it if it wasn't for those nosey Teen Titans and their Dog G'Nort.."

[Alan2099]

Nightwing: So, let me get this straight, you were erasing people's memories but you didn't do anything about when I was running around in the bikini brief Robin costume?

Green Arrow: Actually, we got such a kick out of that we implanted the memory into people that had never even heard of it before.

Nightwing: You're kidding, right?

Green Arrow: Nope. remember that time you got into the Bat-booze at the annual JLA picnic and started singing "who wears short shorts"? We put that memory into most of our rogues.

Nightwing: That's it. I'm outta here. I wonder if Daredevil needs a sidekick. Where's that Access guy?

[yeoman]

The Murder is....







Elongated man.

"Hey I'm broke this hero crap doesn't pay dick. I needed the insurance money."

"And I would have gotten away with it if it wasn't for those nosey Teen Titans and the Dog G'Nort.."

Donna: Why does it say here I'm supposed to make out with Kory?

Dick: I think Claremont wrote that part.

Donna: And I'm alive again, because...

Roy: Claremont.

Donna: Ah.

[nanteen]

Wally:: "Let me get this straight you guys brainwashed Batman to make him forget things?"

Ollie:: "thats right."

Wally ::"And you guys CHANGED Dr. Lights whole personality?"

Ollie:: "Yup"

Wally ::: "So why exactly did you guys leave Batman such a DICK?"

Ollie:: " HHmmm Good point" Pulls out his cell phone " Hey Z I got a job for ya"

[The Dog]

Darkseid: Yes! I'VE DONE IT! I'VE TAKEN THE WORLD!

(Z mindwipes Darkseid)

Darkseid: Duhhhh! Pickle! *begins banging head against a wall*

Superman: Well, that explains a lot. No wonder he's become such a loser.

(Z mindwipes Darkseid)

Superman:... I think I will sell boyscout cookies while helping old ladies across the street. I am such a good boy!

Darkseid: World control by blastey-thing!

(Darkseid omega effects Supes, who puts up a hand to block it)

Superman: Now now, don't be a bad boy.

(Dr. Strange closes the inter-dimensional rift, and turns to Spider-man)

Dr. Strange: and that is why DC dimension is full of so many morons.

Spider-man: And here I thought the whole "Gwen Stacy having kids by Norman Osbourne" was a retarded story arc.

[bannermanonemillion]

Ray: You-You killed Jean, Sue?! Why? BY ALL THAT'S HOLY WHY?!?!?!

Jean: Uh, I'm apespit crazy?

Ray: Hh.

[bannermanonemillion]

Batman is poring over the evidence with Terrific in the Cave.

He notices a close up scan of Sue's brain. He sees the footprints. Then the handprints. Then the sleeping bag. Then the signed confession, the affidavit, the court order to get everything suppressed, the jury pool and for the final indignity, a note that reads, "If you can read this you don't need glasses."

[bannermanonemillion]

Ray: You-You killed Jean, Sue?! Why? BY ALL THAT'S HOLY WHY?!?!?!

Jean: Uh, I'm apespit crazy?

Ray: Hh.

This quote by bannerman would have made more sense but before typing he sat on.....The Plaht Device!

SFX: Ding!

[stealthwise]

Hehe great thread. :D

*Batman and Robin cruise along in the batmobile*

Batman: "I'm sorry Tim, but you'll learn to live without a father... like me."

Robin: "What? That's horrible, what's wrong with you?"

Batman: "I'm a dick now, don't you remember?"

Robin: "But... why?"

Batman: "I was mindwiped"

Robin: "You... you know?"

Batman: "Of course. I'm Batman"

Robin: "Then why didn't you fight back? Try to change things?"

Batman: "It's easier to pretend that they made me this way. That way they feel guilty and can't complain. And it's fun to beat the crap out of Clark once in a while."

Robin: "But, they, they violated your mind, your personal..."

Batman: "I got them back. You should have seen what I put in their lockers."

*Jump to the JLA Satellite*

Flash: "WTF is that smell?"

[bannermanonemillion]

At Sue Dibny's funeral.

Superman: And now with a few words of her own, Wonder Woman.

WW: Thank you, Kal. Some of us were more familiar with this delightful woman than others. But all of us who knew her remember her smile, her laugh, her incredible curves.

(Superman looks up.)

WW: I mean, Hera, the boobs, the butt, the legs, Sweet Minerva, the legs!!

(Ralph looks unconfortable)

WW: I know she didn't lean that way but I was getting there. I was this close to an Anne Heche moment before she was savagely snatched away!

Superman: OK, Diana I think that's-

WW: I was going to show her a copy of the "Ya-Ya Sisterhood." We were going to braid each other's hair. I'd tell her of my skills at massage......

(Ollie crosses his legs)

WW:......I'd tell her of the ways of Paradise Island! The spas! The clothing optional jaunts through the woods! The Sunbathing! Hera, the SUNBATHING!

(Clark makes the cut gesture to Zatanna, who nods)

Z: namoW rednoW peels!

(WW passes out)

[yeoman]

At Sue Dibny's funeral.

Superman: And now with a few words of her own, Wonder Woman.

WW: Thank you, Kal. Some of us were more familiar with this delightful woman than others. But all of us who knew her remember her smile, her laugh, her incredible curves.

(Superman looks up.)

WW: I mean, Hera, the boobs, the butt, the legs, Sweet Minerva, the legs!!

(Ralph looks unconfortable)

WW: I know she didn't lean that way but I was getting there. I was this close to an Anne Heche moment before she was savagely snatched away!

Superman: OK, Diana I think that's-

WW: I was going to show her a copy of the "Ya-Ya Sisterhood." We were going to braid each other's hair. I'd tell her of my skills at massage......

(Ollie crosses his legs)

WW:......I'd tell her of the ways of Paradise Island! The spas! The clothing optional jaunts through the woods! The Sunbathing! Hera, the SUNBATHING!

(Clark makes the cut gesture to Zatanna, who nods)

Z: namoW rednoW peels!

(WW passes out)

Captain Atom: Okay, was there *anyone* in the Europe League with a serious reason for being there? Rex?

Metaporpho: Freee cable with the stooges in french, you say no to that.

CA: Buddy?

Animal Man: I just wanted to get away from the wife every now and then.

CA: Kara?

Power Girl: I was there to oogle Wonder Woman. And then Sue.

Booster Gold: You owe me ten bucks, Beetle!

[Dawg Corleone]

I'm fairly new to the comic world. I started really reading comics about 4 mos ago (i'm 31 years old). I have found it sorta difficult getting started. So many books are written in a manner that really requires a lot of back-story knowledge and I have at times found myself very frustrated because I have no idea what is going on. I have been able to piece much of the info i need to understand stories by reading this message board.

My DC reading list is Adventures of Superman, Action Comics, Detective Comics, and Flash.

My question relates to the adventures of superman and how it relates to IC. (I have searched and found a bazillion threads on IC, but they are far too technical for what i need to know or can comprehend).

This is what I do know:

Dr. Light (whoever that is) was "mindwiped" (whatever that is) at some point in IC or it was revealed at some point in IC. Batman was also "mindwiped". Apparently some people knew about this and some didn't.

Why did Dr. Light have to be mindwiped, why was Batman mindwiped, why is it such a big deal in Adv of Superman, Why is WW so surprised that Superman knows?

If anyone knows of a good site or thread with a concise "cliffnote's" type recap of IC that a complete newb could understand, that would be most appreciated as well.

Thank you in advance for your help. I have found that die-hard comic enthusiasts are most helpful and more than willing to answer newb questions.

[borateen]

I have no answers for you because I didn't read IC...in fact, I'm on my way OUT of reading comics in the monthly format. But I was curious.

What brought you into the hobby at what some would consider a late age? Did you read them when you were younger and got back into the hobby, or did a long-time reader and friend turn you on to them?

Just curious.

[Bat-Mite]

Dr. Light (whoever that is) was "mindwiped" (whatever that is)

They erased his memory.

Why did Dr. Light have to be mindwiped,

Cause he raped Elongated Man's wife, so Zatanna the magician erased his memory of this act and also turned him into a semi-harmless idiot.

why was Batman mindwiped,

Cause he found out and he is against erasing people's memories or turning people into morons.

why is it such a big deal in Adv of Superman,

Beats me, I don't read that one.

Why is WW so surprised that Superman knows?

Cause only Zatanna, Elongated Man, Hawkman and Green Arrow are supposed to know that, I guess.

[Dawg Corleone]

When i was a kid (5-6) i would watch the super friends on saturday morning and then spend the rest of the week pretending to be a super hero. I never really read comics though, just watched the super friends.

A while back, i was in a book store and passed the comic isle and started flipping through some comics. It kinda brought back the feeling i had when i was 5-6 watching the superfriends, and it got me interested as to what was going on with the characters.

I've really enjoyed getting into it. I dunno, the thought of super powers just piques my imagination and reminds me of a more innocent time in my life (kinda brings out the kid in me if you know what i mean, although it seems quite clear the comics aren't for kids anymore, although i have begun buying my daughter (age 3) the new scooby doo when it comes out and she loves it, of course she also loves all my comics so i'm definately not a "collector")

Like i said earlier, the hardest part has been getting up to speed on the story lines. I really like spider girl (i can pretty much just read it without having to search the internet for back story). Det Comics has been real difficult figuring out, but i'm starting to catch on. Action Comics hasn't been too dificult (althouh i did have to do some research on doomsday). Adv, has been a little difficult, but outside of my IC question i'm doing ok. I really like the flash, but i had to do some massive research to get started.

[Lotus]

Weeks after the events of IC



Wally: You know, Ollie I still can't believe you all mindwiped Batman.

Olllie: Wally? Didn't you just have the Spectre do the same thing to the entire planet for you a week ago?

Wally: D'oh!

[Dawg Corleone]

Thanks for the info Bat-Mite, tonite when i get home i'll re-read adv of sup (from the first issue i have with Mztslflk) and hopefully it will make more sense this time.

[bert]

Cause he raped Elongated Man's wife, so Zatanna the magician erased his memory of this act and also turned him into a semi-harmless idiot.




not exactly. . . according the the book. . Light knew some identities (obviously he knew Elongated Man's ID), and he threatened to continue doing harm w/ the knowledge he had.

He wasn't mind-wiped because he did the rape, but rather because he threatened to use his knowlege to continue harming the League's loved ones

[bert]

My DC reading list is Adventures of Superman, Action Comics, Detective Comics, and Flash.

This is what I do know:

Dr. Light (whoever that is) was "mindwiped" (whatever that is) at some point in IC or it was revealed at some point in IC. Batman was also "mindwiped". Apparently some people knew about this and some didn't.

Why did Dr. Light have to be mindwiped, why was Batman mindwiped, why is it such a big deal in Adv of Superman, Why is WW so surprised that Superman knows?



as BatMite stated, Bats was mindwiped because he walked in on the League while they were committing the act on Light, and they didn't want him to know.

I believe the list of those that "knew" about the Mindwipe of Light at the time of IC was: Hawkman, Atom, Elongated Man, Zatanna, the Barry Allen Flash, and Green Arrow.

These are also those who know about the mindwipe of Batman, but it's been strongly indicated that Superman knows about the Light Mindwipe (and chooses not to fight that battle), and that Bats also knows what happened to both Light and himself.

That's actually one of the big plot points of the upcoming DC minis coming out over the next few months (Countdown, Day of Vengeance, The OMAC Project, Rann/Thanagar War, and Villians United -- all of which are supposedly leading up to something "BIG" (most figure it to be Crisis on Infinate Earths II)

Since IC, many more have learned about the mindwipes -- Barry Allen left a message for Wally West (the current Flash), and he has informed some others of what is going on. Light also knows what happened to him, and word has spread thruought the villain community in the DC Universe (part of the Villains United mini, if I'm not mistaken, and currently a huge plot element in the Flash book)

I don't think Wondy was "surprised" that Supes knows, but actually surprised that he is choosing to let it slide -- he's SUPERMAN. .if he wants to know something, he's gonna find out.


I highly recommend you add: Wonder Woman, JSA, and the Teen Titans to your DCU reading -- they're all excellent books :)

bert

[JeffreyWKramer]

Aside from story changes, think how artistic changes could have made IC worse.

First off, imagine if Liefeld had drawin it.

[Dawg Corleone]

Thanks alot bert, that was real good info. I'm just hoping at some point I won't feel so frustrated while reading (because i'm constantly thinking "what is going on"). I also read some marvel comics (Avengers, IM, CA, Spider girl, and hulk). CA, IM, and AVengers all "rebooted" with #1's so, i've had an easier time figuring them out, althouh for "#1's" a lot of back story still helps.

I was reading JLA, but i just got totally lost, so i stopped ordering that one this month (between the JLA, the CSA, and whoever those aliens were, i couldn't follow it)

Thanks for the suggestions though, i always like to know what people who have read for a while like. I'm also giving consideration to adding batman, batgirl, and super girl whenever it comes out. I would read superman as well, but i saw where it was in the middle of a 12 mos arc, and i knew i would be lost as all get out (i've tried starting comics as they begin new arcs). Oh, and i also read aquaman, i forgot it earlier (once i figured out why san diego was underwater it has been pretty easy to follow).

Thanks again for your time.

addendum: one last thing, if it wasn't for the internet and message boards like this one, i would have given up on comics after the first month. Its thanks to all the useful replies i get when i ask "dumb questions" that has kept me in the game, otherwise the frustration level would have been unbearable.

[Typo Lad]

Ray: You know Jean, that was a really good idea. Let's do it.

[stealthwise]

Aside from story changes, think how artistic changes could have made IC worse.

First off, imagine if Liefeld had drawin it.

I was thinking that too when I first saw the title to this thread.

Man, we'd STILL be waiting for issue 7.

[Zero Hunter]

The Batman deal was touched on a little this month in the Outsiders book. Batman is talking with Nightwing in the Batcave and tells Dick that he souldn't trust anyone. He knows something happened to him, but hasn't been able to figure out what it was or who actully did it.

Dr. Light goes after the Teen Titans in this months issue. He is still majorly pissed at the JLA for messing with his head, and decides to make them suffer by going after the proteges in the Teen Titans. That and the fact that the Titans are one of the groups that used to regulary kick his but after the JLA turned him into a buffon.

With your reading of Flash, Detective, and Action you might like Teen Titans because it features the characters with ties to those books. The Team is made up of Superboy, Robin, Kid Flash (the Flash's cousin and grandson of the Barry Allen Flash), Wonder Girl (sort of Wonder Womens protege) , Speedy (street girl that Green Arrow took in and trained to be a hero), Cyborg, Beast Boy, and Raven.

Also the Legion of Super Heros book just totaly relaunched a few months ago. It is a new take on the old team with no need for prior knowledge to enjoy the series. Issue 3 just shipped this month.

[stealthwise]

I'd also recommend Legion of Super-Heroes and the current Nightwing: Year One storyline.

[yeoman]

I was thinking that too when I first saw the title to this thread.

Man, we'd STILL be waiting for issue 7.

And that's a bad thing, because....

:D

[Sean Whitmore]

I think a lot of frustration would be alleviated if DC brought back those editorial footnotes that said "See this month's Flash" or "This happened in Identity Crisis". It's not only helpful, but it's a built-in advertising technique, I don't know why they were ever done away with.


SEAN

[T Rath]

I feel your pain Dawg (only time I've said that and not looked like a dumb old guy trying to be young! :D )

There are so few books you can jump into with zero base knowledge. Legion of Superheroes has already been mentioned. I'd say Doom Patrol too though no idea how long that book will last (18 issues minimum, but sales are falling quick!). Between the big story arcs, Geoff Johns does some really great single issue stories in JSA.

You may instead want to look at trade paperbacks, collecting a storyline of characters you like. It's a little easier (and cheaper in the long run) to determine if the character appeals to you than to drop $3 for four months to realize you didn;t really care for it at all.

Your problem is my biggest beef with comics today - too insulated. We need more single issue stories, that explain who the characters are and what they do, rather than 6-12 issue story arcs that require an encycolpedic knowledge of the company's publishing history. But, hey, that's just me.

And any Ayn Rand fan is ok by me!

[pureclint]

as BatMite stated, Bats was mindwiped because he walked in on the League while they were committing the act on Light, and they didn't want him to know.

I believe the list of those that "knew" about the Mindwipe of Light at the time of IC was: Hawkman, Atom, Elongated Man, Zatanna, the Barry Allen Flash, and Green Arrow.

These are also those who know about the mindwipe of Batman, but it's been strongly indicated that Superman knows about the Light Mindwipe (and chooses not to fight that battle), and that Bats also knows what happened to both Light and himself.

That's actually one of the big plot points of the upcoming DC minis coming out over the next few months (Countdown, Day of Vengeance, The OMAC Project, Rann/Thanagar War, and Villians United -- all of which are supposedly leading up to something "BIG" (most figure it to be Crisis on Infinate Earths II)

Since IC, many more have learned about the mindwipes -- Barry Allen left a message for Wally West (the current Flash), and he has informed some others of what is going on. Light also knows what happened to him, and word has spread thruought the villain community in the DC Universe (part of the Villains United mini, if I'm not mistaken, and currently a huge plot element in the Flash book)

I don't think Wondy was "surprised" that Supes knows, but actually surprised that he is choosing to let it slide -- he's SUPERMAN. .if he wants to know something, he's gonna find out.


I highly recommend you add: Wonder Woman, JSA, and the Teen Titans to your DCU reading -- they're all excellent books :)

bert

Do not forget Hal Jordan was there to for the Light incedent.

It was established in IC that the big boys would alwasy fly/swing off to the next big thing and leave the B listers to cleanup the messes. They had used the memory whipes in the past to erased their secret IDs from assorted villians but Light crossed a line and they attempted to remove the part of his personality that made him want to rape/kill the loved ones of the Heroes (he was basically on a sadistic high after attacking Sue). Light becoming a idiot was a mistake and not intended, Zatana had never done a memory whipe like that before.

Batman was in on the capture of Light but this time because it was Sue he came back and caught them mid mindwhipe. So the erased 10 minutes or so of his memories.

It was also established that Batman and Superman both knew of the memory whipes, but Wonder Woman knew nothing of them as far as we know.

The issue of Superman is big because they both ADMIT they knew and tell Diana.

As of now the only modern hero to learn everything is WallY West the Flash, and Kyle Rayner learned a little about the Light Mindwhipe which since IC has become common knowledge due to Light remembering what they did (see Teen Titans current arc for his revenge attack). Also, as of now Batman knows something happened to him but is yet to knwo the exact specifics and it is hinted this is the reason he has become more paranoid, secluded and dick like recently.

[Dawg Corleone]

I can't thank everyone enouph for all the info. It really is well appreciated.


It sounds like the IC TPB (When it comes out) may be something i should look into (i'd buy the 'final printings' of them, but they are 3.99 a pop)

I did pick up the Batman TPB "hush" (and boy was I confused), overall though i really enjoyed it. But, there is just something about getting the real comic that i like. Unfortunately i don't live near a comic shop and the book store is 30 miles away, so i use mycomicshop.com's sub service, and to save money i only have them shipped once a month, so for me to pick up a comic requires some planning.

Legion sounds like something i could definately get into. TT sounds good and i've heard alot of people talk highly of it, but is it like the Cartoon? because for some reason i just can't get into the cartoon, and that is what has kept me from buying the comic.

The other problem is, when i decided to buy a "few comics" i was only going to get like 2 or 3 different titles, and that quickly escalated to 10-12 which equates to alot more money (and i'm really having to be selective to limit it to just those, there are many i would like to get but just can't afford it, and in my brief 4 mos of reading, i've already dropped 3 titles) I'm afraid in a couple of more months my wife is going to bring me in for an "intervention"

[stealthwise]

Hehe, I thought that the series was pretty good until that final issue's "climax" and never-ending denouement.

[yeoman]

not exactly. . . according the the book. . Light knew some identities (obviously he knew Elongated Man's ID

Ralph "Elongated Man" Dibney has, and to my knowledge, always had, a public Identity. Finding out his real name is as easy as a trip to the local library.

[stealthwise]

The All-Star line launches this year as well. :D

They're all self-contained, outside of continuity adventures done by Frank Miller and Jim Lee (on Batman) and Grant Morrison with Frank Quitely (Superman).

I know how you feel, I'm up to about 15 titles every month.

[yeoman]

Hehe, I thought that the series was pretty good until that final issue's "climax" and never-ending denouement.

Eh. I really enjoyed the first issue, and issues four and five arn't what I'd call bad.

Issue 2 is an outrage given physcial form. The things that made it so just got worse as the series went on.

[ChaosBurnFlame]

The Era of Watchmen analogies was over when Alan Moore told the industry to get out of HIS bad mood from 10 years ago.

[Lotus]

The TT comic is nothing like the Cartoon Network series, the Cartoon Network series has its own book entitled Teen Titans Go! which is put out under the Johnny DC label (which is what DC uses for all it's kids marketed books).

As for Hush I was confused too and I've been reading Batman steady for at least five years and have varied runs of issues going a long time back. Jeph Loeb will do that to you.

I also would reccomend LSH to you as it's very new, thus making it easy to catch up.

[Max]

The other problem is, when i decided to buy a "few comics" i was only going to get like 2 or 3 different titles, and that quickly escalated to 10-12 which equates to alot more money (and i'm really having to be selective to limit it to just those, there are many i would like to get but just can't afford it, and in my brief 4 mos of reading, i've already dropped 3 titles) I'm afraid in a couple of more months my wife is going to bring me in for an "intervention"

Holy-moly! I feel your pain. Everything you have said in this thread is what I have been going through. I am an "older reader" I started with pretty much the same reasons as you. It is so easy to get carried away. My original intent was to do some exploratory reading then narrow it down to 5-6 titles and concentrate only on them...fat chance. Yeah.. I concentrate on the Flash and Daredevil but I still read about 12 monthly.

Like you I am going to try to avoid the intervention by my wife by cutting back.

Good luck
:)

[Smarty Jones]

Batman: "You know, Clark, I'm an urban legend."

Superman: "What do you mean, Bruce?"

Batman: "No one knows who I am, and no one has ever seen me. I'm like Bigfoot, the Loch Ness monster and ALF all rolled up in one."

Green Arrow: "Get the hell outta here! You're in The JLA, and every cape and rogue knows you. You've met every commissioner in Gotham City, been seen lots of times by police officers and civilians and every mayor greets you on Orientation Day!"

Batman: "Take it back! TAKE IT BACK!"

The Atom: "Then how come my wife knew who Robin and his father were?"

Flash: "And if no one's ever seen you, then why were you at the Drakes' house in 'Identity Crisis 6?' That cop saw you and so did Captain Boomerang's son!"

Batman: (putting his hands over his ears) "I can't hear you. I CAN'T HEAR YOU!"

Hal Jordan: "I wish you were an urban legend, so I wouldn't have to hear you whining about me! People may think you're sweet on me the way my name keeps popping out of your mouth, Brucie!"

Batman: "Jordan, why can't you stay dead and yet my mommy and daddy can't come back?!?! (in a whining voice) MAW MAW! PAW PAW!"

Hal Jordan: "Before I came back, your parents told me they saw what you and Jason Todd did in Gotham Harbor. You need to get some therapy!"

Batman: "NOOOOO! Not THAT! I swear, I thought it was The Mad Hatter!" (runs out of the room, flustered)

Wonder Woman: "Hmph! I knew something was up with him! I wanted him to tap this ass in 'JLA' and all he wants to be is FRIENDS?!?!"

[bert]

Do not forget Hal Jordan was there to for the Light incedent.


That's pretty funny. . as I had Green Lantern in my original reply, but went back and edited him out -- since I didnt' have the issues in front of me, and couldn't remember if GL AND Green Arrow were there :)

[bert]

Ralph "Elongated Man" Dibney has, and to my knowledge, always had, a public Identity. Finding out his real name is as easy as a trip to the local library.

well. . .he DID used to wear a purple domino mask, but I dunno if he ever had a "secret" identity.

I was just trying to get across the point that Light knew who Ralph was, and threatened to continue using his knowledge to harm his loved ones.

But yeah, until recently, anyone could go to the DCU library and know Wally West was the Flash (and that Barry was the prior Flash) too

[Captain Jim]

well. . .he DID used to wear a purple domino mask, but I dunno if he ever had a "secret" identity.

I believe he did, but it was a long, long time ago.

[hitokiri_]

I believe he did, but it was a long, long time ago.


being the first hero to go public? that is a long, long, long, long time ago.

[pennywisdom]

I'm going to kick this up. I think it's a legit topic, especially now that there's a new conversation about DC's "direction".

[bannermanonemillion]

The autopsy of Sue Dibny.

Dr. Mid-Nite is in the morgue about to examine Sue's corpse.

(clicks on recorder)

DM: Time is 10:57 EST. Subject is Sue Dibny. Subject is covered in first- and second-degree burns. There is indication of possible head trauma but cannot ascertain until I examine the body closer. Preparing to break epidermal surface now.

(revs up the chainsaw)

DM: Note: if anyone complains about the mess, blame it on mindwipe.

[Loren]

I'm writing up a review of Manhunter #7 for "Suspension of Disbelief," and there's an important question about Firestorm's murder that I haven't been able to find in any reviews yet.

I know that Firestorm and some other heroes were interrogating Shadow Thief when he pulled the Shining Knight's sword and stabbed Ronnie, but *where* did that take place? What state? Was it in a particular building? Where did Ronnie fly away to when he exploded? Any and all details are greatly appreciated.

In fact, any details about the murder at all are welcomed.

Thanks,
Loren

[JeffreyWKramer]

One of the issues of IDENTITY CRISIS. If you read back over the IC threads, you'd no doubt find out which one it occurred in pretty quickly.

Glad you're on that issue of MANHUNTER, Loren. The depiction of court was pretty damn bad - enough so to greatly diminish my enjoyment of the issue. Apparently Kate Spencer is the least-competent prosecutor on earth, if she didn't raise objections to the crap the defense attorney was doing.

[Sean Whitmore]

Most of the answers you're seeking weren't given in IC #5 (when Firestorm was killed), although they may be in the issue of Firestorm that dealt with the aftermath.

What I can answer is: they were fighting outside, in a park (coulda been Central Park, but it doesn't specify). Sands stabbed him in the chest, Ronnie immediately realized he was going to explode, and he simply flew straight up, into space (or as close to space as he can get, I dunno his powers that well).


Glad you're on that issue of MANHUNTER, Loren. The depiction of court was pretty damn bad - enough so to greatly diminish my enjoyment of the issue. Apparently Kate Spencer is the least-competent prosecutor on earth, if she didn't raise objections to the crap the defense attorney was doing.


That's true, but it's not even my biggest complaint of the issue. I don't know if the writer thinks they're the first person in the world to think of bringing super heroes in as witnesses, but the very reason you don't do that is THEY ARE VIGILANTES. Half the time they're wanted for crimes they didn't commit, and the other half they're presumed dead or something. Even under the best of conditions, they're still only just tolerated as law enforcement.

Even Superman, who is deputized, doesn't appear at trials because he can't reveal his identity. Going over that in court was a contrivance to increase tension, and it made Superman and Hawkman look like doofuses.


SEAN

[Mon-el]

Most of the answers you're seeking weren't given in IC #5 (when Firestorm was killed), although they may be in the issue of Firestorm that dealt with the aftermath.

What I can answer is: they were fighting outside, in a park (coulda been Central Park, but it doesn't specify). Sands stabbed him in the chest, Ronnie immediately realized he was going to explode, and he simply flew straight up, into space (or as close to space as he can get, I dunno his powers that well).



Sean is right.

I just pulled Firestorm #6 and IC #5 and in both of them doesn't list the park area in which he was killed. Luckily I just bagged the past 6 months so I only had to check a couple of boxes.

On a side note for your article. You could list why wasn't Captain Marvel, Vixen, and Sir Justin listed on the Prosecutor's list of Discovery since they was technically there to witness the said act.

[Loren]

On a side note for your article. You could list why wasn't Captain Marvel, Vixen, and Sir Justin listed on the Prosecutor's list of Discovery since they was technically there to witness the said act.

Was this omission in Manhunter #6? Because there's no list of witnesses in #7.

It sounds like a big mistake, but not one for this issue's review.

Loren

[yeoman]

The autopsy of Sue Dibny.

Dr. Mid-Nite is in the morgue about to examine Sue's corpse.

(clicks on recorder)

DM: Time is 10:57 EST. Subject is Sue Dibny. Subject is covered in first- and second-degree burns. There is indication of possible head trauma but cannot ascertain until I examine the body closer. Preparing to break epidermal surface now.

(revs up the chainsaw)

DM: Note: if anyone complains about the mess, blame it on mindwipe.

Ray: Why did you kill Sue Dibney?

Jean: Uh... Zatanna mind wiped me and screwed up?

Ray: Oh, okay. Wait, are you better now?

Jean: Uh, yeah... sure.

[Mon-el]

Was this omission in Manhunter #6? Because there's no list of witnesses in #7.

It sounds like a big mistake, but not one for this issue's review.

Loren

Nope it was not mentioned in Manhunter #6 as well. The only thing that was mentioned was that she had subpena the Justice League members. Technically they could still be called to tesitfied, but it would have to seem that they was subpena off panel.

It would appear that Captain Marvel, Vixen, and Sir Justin would be the first to be on the stand having witnessed the attack.

[Loren]

Nope it was not mentioned in Manhunter #6 as well. The only thing that was mentioned was that she had subpena the Justice League members. Technically they could still be called to tesitfied, but it would have to seem that they was subpena off panel.

Ah, I see now.

It would appear that Captain Marvel, Vixen, and Sir Justin would be the first to be on the stand having witnessed the attack.

Yep, it'd be good form to start your murder trial with witness who, y'know, witnessed a murder. Certainly not with a witness who has nothing to say but "The victim was a really nice guy."

Loren

[Clear]

Best guess: it took place near a roadway outside of Detroit.

Ronnie launched into the air and blew up within sight of those on the ground. Hence, they were shielding their eyes when he blew. The agony was tearing his essence apart so he descended and found a host (Jason Rusch) quickly. That's an assumption, but based on the narrative Ronnie was not casually flying over long distances looking for a new host. We know Jason was about an hour outside of Detroit when Ronnie entered him.

As to some of the other facts, the incident took place to the side of a road of some sort (2-4 lanes). There was a bridge nearby and a lit streetlight (it was night). It wasn't really an interrogation. They were certainly planning to interrogate him, but they were trying to capture him when it happened. They never had him in custody.

I've written some thoughts on Ronnie's death here. (http://firestorm.mandlo.com/rants/rrdeath.php)

I'm also interested in the legal questions around this case. My heart says Carl should still be found guilty of murder, while my head says that's a dangerous precendent. There's some discussion of the implications here. (http://dcboards.warnerbros.com/web/thread.jspa?threadID=2000006120&tstart=0)

[Loren]

Glad you're on that issue of MANHUNTER, Loren. The depiction of court was pretty damn bad - enough so to greatly diminish my enjoyment of the issue. Apparently Kate Spencer is the least-competent prosecutor on earth, if she didn't raise objections to the crap the defense attorney was doing.

It goes both ways. The defense attorney could've objected to a bunch of what Kate asked too. They're both inept.

If I have to look on the positive side, at least Andreyko didn't start creating new, impossible superhero laws like Grant Morrison did in his trial issue in Flash. The Twelfth Amendment protects superhero secret identities? People who have no grasp on the court system shouldn't write courtroom dramas.

Anyhow, my review is up on the site now. It's long, but there was a lot to cover. Virtually every question and answer was objectionable, the trial tactics were horrible, and what little law was shown was wrong.

Loren

[Captain Jim]

Maybe so, but it's still a heck of a book! ;)

[BAnderson]

And the Killer is










Kyle the Green Lantern

Atom: why....why did you kill her

Kyle: uh..... see theres a flaw in the ring .... it made me crazy

Guy: wait wasn't that what happened with Ha...

Kyle: No its totally different see now I'm evil (starts putting on an elaborate suit)

Hal: I have returned to stop you

Wally: I'm gonna go rape myself

[palaeomerus]

PHONE RINGS AND OLLIE PICKS IT UP

Wally: Hey Ollie!

Ollie: Wally is that you?

Wally: Hey Ollie. Yeah it's me. Y'know how you guys mindwiped Batman?

Ollie: yeah?

Wally: Well it turns out that he actually black mailed Zatanna into mindwiping all of you to believe that you'd mindwiped him and Dr. Light.

Ollie: Really? Ummm...

Wally: Yeah. I tried to get him to say why but he just said it was part of his "plan". Apparently he also tried to mind wipe super man into not wearing the red shorts over his blue costume but it didn't really take because of his mysterious Kryptonian physiology. After he died that time he did wear a black body suit and grew his hair long for a while but... it wore off.

Ollie: Hmmm. So How come Dr. Light was acting stupid then?

Wally: Duh. The guys a hard core stoner. You spend every evening doing what he does and you're bound to see some damage after a while.

Ollie: Yeah. uh....ooh...That makes sense.

Wally: ooh?

Ollie: Sorry. Did I say ooh? Forget it.

Wally: Did you hear about Jack Drake rising from the dead and becoming a new zombie super villain with a boomerang in his chest? I didn't see THAT one coming. Apparently he dug up Captain Boomernag's body and put a cinder block up his..uh.. rear.

Ollie: Dude that's nothing. I just fought the Duke of oil the other day. What's next? The Ten Eyed Man? Ugghhh... oh.

Wally: Oh by the way... speaking of what people do every evening...I'm in the phone booth across the street and I know you're making love to Linda while we're talking.

Ollie: Uh...

Wally: What you guys did out on the balcony earlier was truly inspiring. It might actually make me mad. Y'know...if I didn't know that she's got genital herpes. Luckily with my metabolism I don't have to worry about that sort of thing but you...man you like to live on the edge don't you? By the way I filmed most of it and I sort of sent Black Canary a copy. She was pretty mad when I showed it to her though she claims that it doesn't surpise her much. Oh yeah. Your car needs air in the tires since I let all the air out n' stuff. Happy outbreaks! Bye. Gotta go.

Ollie: Herpes?

CLICK

[bannermanonemillion]

PHONE RINGS AND OLLIE PICKS IT UP

Wally: Hey Ollie!

Ollie: Wally is that you?

Wally: Hey Ollie. Yeah it's me. Y'know how you guys mindwiped Batman?

Ollie: yeah?

Wally: Well it turns out that he actually black mailed Zatanna into mindwiping all of you to believe that you'd mindwiped him and Dr. Light.

Ollie: Really? Ummm...

Wally: Yeah. I tried to get him to say why but he just said it was part of his "plan". Apparently he also tried to mind wipe super man into not wearing the red shorts over his blue costume but it didn't really take because of his mysterious Kryptonian physiology. After he died that time he did wear a black body suit and grew his hair long for a while but... it wore off.

Ollie: Hmmm. So How come Dr. Light was acting stupid then?

Wally: Duh. The guys a hard core stoner. You spend every evening doing what he does and you're bound to see some damage after a while.

Ollie: Yeah. uh....ooh...That makes sense.

Wally: ooh?

Ollie: Sorry. Did I say ooh? Forget it.

Wally: Did you hear about Jack Drake rising from the dead and becoming a new zombie super villain with a boomerang in his chest? I didn't see THAT one coming. Apparently he dug up Captain Boomernag's body and put a cinder block up his..uh.. rear.

Ollie: Dude that's nothing. I just fought the Duke of oil the other day. What's next? The Ten Eyed Man? Ugghhh... oh.

Wally: Oh by the way... speaking of what people do every evening...I'm in the phone booth across the street and I know you're making love to Linda while we're talking.

Ollie: Uh...

Wally: What you guys did out on the balcony earlier was truly inspiring. It might actually make me mad. Y'know...if I didn't know that she's got genital herpes. Luckily with my metabolism I don't have to worry about that sort of thing but you...man you like to live on the edge don't you? By the way I filmed most of it and I sort of sent Black Canary a copy. She was pretty mad when I showed it to her though she claims that it doesn't surpise her much. Oh yeah. Your car needs air in the tires since I let all the air out n' stuff. Happy outbreaks! Bye. Gotta go.

Ollie: Herpes?

CLICK


Truly inspiring, man. :D

[yenaled]

Best guess: it took place near a roadway outside of Detroit.

Ronnie launched into the air and blew up within sight of those on the ground. Hence, they were shielding their eyes when he blew. The agony was tearing his essence apart so he descended and found a host (Jason Rusch) quickly. That's an assumption, but based on the narrative Ronnie was not casually flying over long distances looking for a new host. We know Jason was about an hour outside of Detroit when Ronnie entered him.

As to some of the other facts, the incident took place to the side of a road of some sort (2-4 lanes). There was a bridge nearby and a lit streetlight (it was night). It wasn't really an interrogation. They were certainly planning to interrogate him, but they were trying to capture him when it happened. They never had him in custody.

I've written some thoughts on Ronnie's death here. (http://firestorm.mandlo.com/rants/rrdeath.php)

I'm also interested in the legal questions around this case. My heart says Carl should still be found guilty of murder, while my head says that's a dangerous precendent. There's some discussion of the implications here. (http://dcboards.warnerbros.com/web/thread.jspa?threadID=2000006120&tstart=0)


Just read your write up and throught it was awesome. I loved Ronnie's "death" in Identity Crisis because it felt so emotional too me, and as you as showing how real heros often die.

[Suzanne]

"Bring the Hate" for IC? That's a common occurance here, isn't it?
:p

[clt123456789]

I know about these:
batman
dr.light 1
most of the reformed Flash rogues
dr.destiny when he found out the ids of the jla

these are ones i just caught on to when i was posting over on a batboard:
catwoman when she had gone good and almost got up with bats
most likely boomerang sr when he was with the suicide squad(????)
crimson dawn or something the russian super speeders from the baron flash
how about prof. hamiliton from superman? starts out bad then comes back as like supes tech side kick(???)
anyone recall when lashina was the duchess in sucide squad?
kanjar ro from the early league stories who seemly goes from being a world beater to an idiot over night?
what about two for alfred pennyworth who went in the seventies from being the loyal man servant to the outsider then back to man servant, but this would imply that there are bad guys doing these too right?
maybe thunder and lightening from wolfman/perez titans?
how about francis kane who if there have been villians and heroes doing this for while may be the most frequently mindwiped/repersonalityed person in the whole darn dcu?
this one i bet no one would ever think of, drum roll please!
jason todd (robin) he goes from being a relatively stable, good soldier to being a murdering loose cannon over night remember batfans? weren't we all shocked by this change? damn!
what about mark shaw from manhunter to privateer?
and most recently didn't black adam go from villian to member of the jsa?

how big will the dc editors allow this conspricacy to become do you think folks? what other dcu characters or villains can you think of that suddenly changed drastically or forgot things they should have rememberd? wow if you get to thinking on this it gets pretty darn deep pretty fast don't it? we need a dcu secret files where they reveal or list all of the IC style or IC mindwipes don't we? so who has more possible or definite mindwipes/ repersonalitying? is it implied or clearly stated anywhere yet that villians have been doing this trick too? cause surely if zantana knew how or figgered out how why couldn't say the original faust learn how? shees...at least one villain did it in the late eighties on camera in a bat book. anyone recall the two part barr/davis deal where the joker kidnaps catwoman and has dr.moon make her a criminal again. there you go. dr.moon would work for anyone right? so who's say that the badguys haven't been snatching up heroes and tossing a wipe on them for as long if not longer than the heroes were doing it to the badguys? so help me out who else, good guy to bad or bad guy to good has been mindwiped? does anyone but me realize what kinda can of worms they have opened up with this whole concept coming out of Identity Crisis? talk to me peeps? laters!



---Is it me or has the DCU become a very SCARY place to hang out at since Identity Crisis and the revealing of the mindwiping trend/tactic?---- :eek: :eek:

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Its fueling where the DCU Is headed. The Rogues will be Bad Guys and thats how Villians are. They give no ryme or reason what they do. This Is how Identity Crisis has cleared the decks on some things.

Spoiler:
In Outsiders 21# Batman sits and argues with Bruce over him funding the Outsiders. Bruce tells him: "You can't Trust someone fully. " and you see him remembering a flashback of the JLA/IC deal when they mindwiped him.

This figures Into why Bruce has been such a dark charactor and withdrew from the JLA. It being talked about In Outsiders was pretty awesome as well.

[clt123456789]

anyone have some i didn't get...i have a new one for you
remember how bats faces down deadshot in suicide squad and tells him he has been pulling his shots at bats for years...can you say mindwipe?laters! :evilsmile

[clt123456789]

deathstroke when he becomes first changlings buddy then an official unofficial titan during and after titans quest...do you think slade wilson knows someone messed with his brain and wouldn't the mindwiper of deathstroke have most likely been raven, not zantana?...if so we open a whole new can of worms, cause unless i'm wrong a lot of titans baddies at least reformed if not became good guys...didn't blackfire go from being a wacko villianess to a reasonable effective, decent queen of the tameranns? laters

[Taskmaster]

I doubt Slade was mindwiped because he's always been portrayed as aguy that should've never gotten involved with the Titans, but had to for his son's memory. He makes a much better anti-hero in his own series anyways

[The Xenos]

Aw crap. Now mindwipes are huge issues and everytime it was used in the past is now a big deal beaucause of one overhyped mini-series that never even delt with its own mindwipes. BAH!

Plus I don't get what you mean by talking about Catwoman and Jason Todd. Mindwipes by the writer or writers changing the direction of a character don't bloody count!!

-Xenos

[clt123456789]

this mess will get shoved down our throats anyway don't ya...just like the retcons..so why don't we play around with it before mindwiping becomes the common cold of the dcu ...hey you want a reason why crappy writer a and crappy writer b's version of the same character d9on't match ...can you say mindwipe...lets do the mindwipe boogey...lol...but really the deathstroke may be right but what do ya'll say about blackfire, thunder and lightening and the privateer/manhunter mark shaw idea and yes the catwoman mindwipe by the joker and doctor moon stood til they year oned selina kyle from a motiveless theif in love with batman to a motive thief who used to a be a domintrix hooker who is in love with batman...you may not be old enough to recall..it was sorta a heartbreaking story by davis and neary....and i still like it so take that ! and yeah you know fore its over the only people who haven't been mindwiping maybe be perry white and and sometimes i wonder y jimmy olsen went from irritating the chief to being his best boy..so beware.meltzer and company have let the ole mindwiping genie out of the bottle...for now its the new multiple earth concept and the new retcon all in one..and you though hypertime was gonna give you a headache baby :confused: :rolleyes: ..lol...laters....

[Captain Jim]

No offense, but I think you've really gone off on the deep end here. You're seeing mindwipes behind every bush. :rolleyes:

[clt123456789]

after the great year one retcon, then the good superman man of steel retcon, then the excellent, but limiting perez wonder woman how many characters in the dcu haven't been retconned? heck unless i'm wrong the legion is up to its 7th or so retcon in about 20 years right? and don't even get me started on all of the donna troy retcons...so yeah it may seem like i'm off the deep end now but what would i have said to someone if he had told me about 20 years ago that essentailly every thing i knew about all my childhood heroes would be changed more often than a hooker changes her panties on a freaking saturday night? i'd have told him he had gone off the deep end and was seeing retcons around every bush..so be ware today's demagogue or bush beater may be tomorrows prophet right? but i was just wanting to have some fun with a concept that i suspect before its all over will at least wind up costin some dcu character a load of pain if not death...if you don't want to play mindwipeeordy then get out the sandbox and let someone else come in...lol..laters!

[Z-man]

Wally: You mindwiped BATMAN? How could you have done that to your own teammate?

Green Arrow: Give me a minute, I've got a phone call to make. *turns around, whispers into cell phone* "Hello, Zatanna? We've got another one."

Zatanna: "Not Wally again? Damn, how many times is he going to figure this one out?"

[Sweet Baby Blue]

Zatanna: You think mind-wiping Batman was bad, you don't remember when there were INFINITE Earths........

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Far be It from Wizard to actually show anything that Is news worthy. But In the current Issue of Wizard , near the end they have several Issues where Villains have used Jean to go crazy.


In Atom & the Hawkman 45# Its showed that Jean suffers a breakdown after a villain uses her. So who's to say this didn't have an effect on Jean and cause her to still be an un-stable person...even today ?


I know most have argued that Jean couldn't have done this and that Meltzer was reaching naming her the person responsible. But It seems like he nailed an old silver age concept that Jean may have stayed crazy and not told anyone.


Plus you have Batman who quit the Justice League In Batman & the Outsiders 1# . The old Team of the 80's all sit and are In shock. Maybe his quitting was something else entirely to go along with his mind being wiped.

That a reason Its taken him so many years to trust his old friends In the JLA Is that very reason too. In all Identity Crisis continues to have these little ripple effects.

[Kevinroc]

But Jean going crazy should have been brought up in Identity Crisis. As a murder mystery, it is EXTREMELY unfair not to bring this information up within the story as there are a lot of readers who don't know Jean's history. In fact, for many, this was the first time they ever saw Jean.

Sorry, but Meltzer definitely wasn't playing fair with Jean.

[Mon-el]

I knew about Jean Loring being crazy multiple times even before reading that in Wizard because I have those issues. So when it was finally revealed that she was the killer in IC that was the first thing that I thought of when I read IC, But then again I am one of the few that enjoyed IDC from start to finish and even in retrospect even with the plot holes, go figure.

[Kid Seven]

That's my exact problem, well on of my exact problems ;) with Identity Crisis. As Kevinroc said, in a murder mystery there are certain rules that you play by. You cannot have a motivation for a character that jumps in out from left field in the Silver Age. You've got to reference it in the story. It HAS to be self-contained.

Meltzer shoulda hired Anglea Lansbury as a story consultant. ;)

[Captain Jim]

I know most have argued that Jean couldn't have done this and that Meltzer was reaching naming her the person responsible. But It seems like he nailed an old silver age concept that Jean may have stayed crazy and not told anyone.

That wasn't really the point for me. I knew Jean didn't have a clean slate when it comes to mental stability, and besides that, she was a real bitch at times (i.e., when she divorced Ray). But that wasn't my objection to Jean being the killer. My objections are...

1) I don't think she had the scientific know-how to shrink down into Sue's brain, and I'm not entirely sure she should have even been able to use Ray's size shrinking apparatis.

2) There's no way she should have known Tim Drake was Robin, despite what Meltzer says.

3) Ray was always chasing Jean, not the other way around. There's no way she would have resorted to all this tretchery to get his attention.

[Avi Green]

Well said, Jim. As far as her going nuts goes, let me just point out that Jean may have only gone crazy - from the work of villains - twice. Once in 1969, and the second time in 1977, in Super-Team Family. In fact, after what happened in the Sword of the Atom Special in 1985, I don't think she would've wanted to go anywhere near Ray's equipment (and no, in the years to follow, she didn't, even if she reconciled as a friend with him later on). What Meltzer did here was to distort past history, and that was just simply dishonest.

[Calamas]

I've come to question how important "scientific know-how" is anyway. All the bad guys had to do to kidnap Arsenal’s kid in Outsiders was smash a keypad.

[The Shadow]

Worst. Story. Of. The. Year.

You guys all nailed my objections... from Tim's identity to not mentioning Jean's history. I'm a long time reader of JLA and I knew OF it... but not that it was serious enough to be relevant today.

[Kevin Street]

That wasn't really the point for me. I knew Jean didn't have a clean slate when it comes to mental stability, and besides that, she was a real bitch at times (i.e., when she divorced Ray). But that wasn't my objection to Jean being the killer. My objections are...

1) I don't think she had the scientific know-how to shrink down into Sue's brain, and I'm not entirely sure she should have even been able to use Ray's size shrinking apparatis.

2) There's no way she should have known Tim Drake was Robin, despite what Meltzer says.

3) Ray was always chasing Jean, not the other way around. There's no way she would have resorted to all this tretchery to get his attention.

My objection was simply that Ray wouldn't have left his spare superhero rig at her house. His powers work by using a chunk of a white dwarf star, and both of the chunks known to be on Earth were already accounted for in previous Atom stories.

That said however, I did enjoy the Identity Crisis miniseries and Jean as the killer makes sense from a thematic point of view.

[Captain Jim]

Btw, count me as one who liked this series...up until the last issue. :(

(Which doesn't mean that I approved of everything that happened in it, however. Killing Jack Drake was a horrible idea.)