IDENTITY CRISIS: Questions & Discussion *Spoilers*

[Dennis K]

I can't really put my finger on the reason why, but I was slightly disappointed with the final issue. Other than that, I thought it was great.

[Huh?]

I can't really put my finger on the reason why, but I was slightly disappointed with the final issue. Other than that, I thought it was great.Probably for the same reason I was - the killer was a let down. In addition, none of the side issues were tied up.

[Phoney Bone]

It worked and I'm hooked. I will be reading the titles that pick up where IDC ends, just like DC said it would when the book was initially promoted. Identity Crisis was to be the jumping-on point, leading to other things.

That's the way it was hyped from the very beginning, as far back as December 2003.

Or maybe I just imagined all of those articles saying that IDC was only the starting place. They say memory is the first thing to go.

[Huh?]

It worked and I'm hooked. I will be reading the titles that pick up where IDC ends, just like DC said it would when the book was initially promoted. Identity Crisis was to be the jumping-on point, leading to other things.

That's the way it was hyped from the very beginning, as far back as December 2003.

Or maybe I just imagined all of those articles saying that IDC was only the starting place. They say memory is the first thing to go.It may be a starting place, but you tell me why we needed 7 issues ($22) extra to tell us information that encompassed maybe 15 panels total. That is all the space that was devoted to the issues that are unresolved. This was marketed as something that would "shake the DCU to its core" - that is not what happened. It shook my wallet to its core, but that was about it.

Again, not to say it was a bad story, just don't think it was important for everyone to read, nor do I see it as a major event.

[JeffreyWKramer]

In addition, none of the side issues were tied up.

Wha...? Tied up?

You looking for bondage comics or something? ;)

Actually, there was a fair bit of that. Jean tied up...that hood thing Deathstroke put on Black Canary. Definitely non-consensual and non-safe, though..., so the book fails even on terms of being a good bondage comic. :)

[jetter_cheeze]

It may be a starting place, but you tell me why we needed 7 issues ($22) extra to tell us information that encompassed maybe 15 panels total. That is all the space that was devoted to the issues that are unresolved. This was marketed as something that would "shake the DCU to its core" - that is not what happened. It shook my wallet to its core, but that was about it.

Again, not to say it was a bad story, just don't think it was important for everyone to read, nor do I see it as a major event.

It was a mystery and when looking for clues in a mystery you will come across several that have nothing to do with the mystery. Red Herrings, etc...

[JeffreyWKramer]

. This was marketed as something that would "shake the DCU to its core" - that is not what happened.

Actually, it did. What was shaken - or, rather, shattered and stomped to smithereens - was the moral core of the DCU heroes. We now have the Justice League of Hypocrites, a Superman who willfully ignores obvious immorality and a sense of darkness and cynicism that brings the DCU closer to the Wildstorm U.

What Meltzer - and IC - did to the DCU isn't much different than what Dr. Light did to Sue Dibny.

[Phoney Bone]

but you tell me why we needed 7 issues ($22) extra to tell us information that encompassed maybe 15 panels total.



So Rags and Meltz can get a sweet, sweet slice of the royalty pie that normally goes to overated hacks like Bendis, Millar, JMS, Morrison, Quitely, Winnick, Leifeld, and so on and so forth.

[The Shadow]

So Rags and Meltz can get a sweet, sweet slice of the royalty pie that normally goes to overated hacks like Bendis, Millar, JMS, Morrison, Quitely, Winnick, Leifeld, and so on and so forth.
now they get to add their names to the "hack" list! LOL

And I wouldn't say they were hacks. Who ISN'T a hack in YOUR opinion?

It was a mystery and when looking for clues in a mystery you will come across several that have nothing to do with the mystery. Red Herrings, etc...
But the CONCLUSIONS should have shown those things to BE red herrings etc. The "clues" should have shown where they were misleading and, more importantly, WHY they were included in the first place!

[Phoney Bone]

...a sense of darkness and cynicism that brings the DCU closer to the Wildstorm U.



Like then darkness and cynicism that permeated DC in the 70's...where all business men were evil, someone died a horrible death in every other issue (even if they were mostly bit characters), and every other issue after that the villian was a demon.

[pureclint]

It worked and I'm hooked. I will be reading the titles that pick up where IDC ends, just like DC said it would when the book was initially promoted. Identity Crisis was to be the jumping-on point, leading to other things.

That's the way it was hyped from the very beginning, as far back as December 2003.

Or maybe I just imagined all of those articles saying that IDC was only the starting place. They say memory is the first thing to go.


It would be nice to read some of the original solicits.

Wha...? Tied up?

You looking for bondage comics or something? ;)

Actually, there was a fair bit of that. Jean tied up...that hood thing Deathstroke put on Black Canary. Definitely non-consensual and non-safe, though..., so the book fails even on terms of being a good bondage comic. :)


We need a Wonder Woman tie in then!

I can't really put my finger on the reason why, but I was slightly disappointed with the final issue. Other than that, I thought it was great.


Yeah the end could have been better it could have tied into the history of Dr. Light and the JLA (I think the Atom met Cronos in his 3rd issue appearance to). The strength of the DCU is its history/legacy and IC failed to use that in its conclusion.

[Huh?]

So Rags and Meltz can get a sweet, sweet slice of the royalty pie that normally goes to overated hacks like Bendis, Millar, JMS, Morrison, Quitely, Winnick, Leifeld, and so on and so forth.I agree with you on Rags, the art was very good on these issues. I don't know enough about Brad to say one way or the other. I have no problem with supporting creators and giving them money. I just felt like there didn't need to be a mini for this. I will go along with calling Leifeld a hack (he is awful), but the other guys you mentioned have done some pretty good work in their careers. Okay, not Winnick - I don't care for much he has written. :)

[JeffreyWKramer]

So Rags and Meltz can get a sweet, sweet slice of the royalty pie that normally goes to overated hacks like Bendis, Millar, JMS, Morrison, Quitely, Winnick, Leifeld, and so on and so forth.

Eh, Meltzer makes gazillions on novels. Like Kevin Smith, the comics stuff is chump change, and more of an ego thing than a career.

Rags, I have no problem with him making a buck. I've liked his stuff for as long as I can remember him being in the business. The only reason I ever bought some of those wretched DnD comics way back was his art. Said art was often the high point of books like BLACK CONDOR and HOURMAN.

What makes me sad is when really skilled artists like Rags get handed crappy stories like IC - or GL: REBIRTH in the case of Ethan Van Scriber, or MARVILLE in the case of Mark Bright.

[Phoney Bone]

Eh, Meltzer makes gazillions on novels. Like Kevin Smith, the comics stuff is chump change, and more of an ego thing than a career.

Rags, I have no problem with him making a buck. I've liked his stuff for as long as I can remember him being in the business. The only reason I ever bought some of those wretched DnD comics way back was his art. Said art was often the high point of books like BLACK CONDOR and HOURMAN.

What makes me sad is when really skilled artists like Rags get handed crappy stories like IC - or GL: REBIRTH in the case of Ethan Van Scriber, or MARVILLE in the case of Mark Bright.
I thought I was the only one who knew the Black Condor book existed! :eek:

I even have some Valiant Morales-drawn Turoky-goodness.

BTW, Rags will be drawing Wonder Woman in 2005.

'Tis enow to make me weep with joy.

We may GET a good bondage comic! :D

[JeffreyWKramer]

I thought I was the only one who knew the Black Condor book existed! :eek:

No, I bought the full run. I think I'm one of about 19 people who did.

I even have some Valiant Morales-drawn Turoky-goodness.

TUROK was so mind-numbingly dumb I couldn't make myself buy more than the first couple issues, even if Jack Kirby had risen from the dead to draw the book.

BTW, Rags will be drawing Wonder Woman in 2005.

'Tis enow to make me weep with joy.

We may GET a good bondage comic! :D

The bondage is always a good thing :)

Not sure about Rags drawing WW, though. Too often his women look way sexy (always good) but not particularly strong (not good for WW). Will give it a shot, though.

[Matt Algren]

In archers quest we found out Ollie knew all along about Connor...Suddenly I'm glad I don't read GA anymore. Interesting that this minor retcon was written by none other than Brad Meltzer. Hmmmm...
No we are talking about morals, Ollie has never been portayed as Jesus. He hit Speedy when he found out he was on drugs, he has had [to] make up with Canary due to a wandering eye, in JLA:Y1 he hid the fact he was sposoring the whole team from the concerned team, and on and on
I have no problem with the things you listed---they're in line with someone who's passionate and who has a bit of a short fuse. (Except for the deal with JLA: Y1. I don't see how that one's germane to the discussion.)

Covering up a rape because he was out-voted is a different class of reaction. (Incidentally, I've been surprised that this hasn't been more of an issue. Regardless of what Zatanna did to Dr. Light's mind, THEY LET A RAPIST OUT ON THE STREET. For Pete's sake, they weren't even sure it would take!) I'm not asking for anyone to be portrayed as Jesus. Just in character.
I understand killing someone is perfectly valid in certain situations, but how can you feel it is valid for Ollie to be ok with killing someone who is about to rape Dinah but not remove the "evil" part of Lights thoughts (from reading it the "he is dumb" was a mistake).It's been awhile since I read the Longbow Hunters, but IIRC, there was no real alternative that didn't result in Dinah being raped. I have no problem with his actions there. Conversely, Ollie and the Thugs DID have other, more reasonable, more heroic, options when they arrived AFTER Sue's rape had occurred.

Secondly, I would infer from the story that a lot of the cover up was because of the "mistake". I wonder if they'd have been as secretive if things had gone to plan?
So dead and not thinking is ok but alive and not being a criminal mastermind is not...Given the circumstances presented here, absolutely.
Are you ok with them removing bits of memories?To be honest, I haven't given it a lot of thought. Off the top of my head, I'd say that performing brain surgery, magical or not, to protect secret identities is wrong. It's much easier to just, you know, keep the secret.

(And before you start, I understand that this was common practice in the Silver Age. It also wasn't delved into as a separate issue. The creative decision to not highlight mindwipes removes any reasonable assumption that something could go wrong. Therefore, the audience is left to assume that it was a perfectly safe procedure that could not result in any negative ramifications.)

[Phoney Bone]

Oops...we're starting to agree too much, Jeffery.

You monkey-head doo-doo brain!

And you'll get more of the same in your Inbox once I create a fake Yahoo account!

That'll learn you!

[pureclint]

Suddenly I'm glad I don't read GA anymore. Interesting that this minor retcon was written by none other than Brad Meltzer. Hmmmm...
I have no problem with the things you listed---they're in line with someone who's passionate and who has a bit of a short fuse. (Except for the deal with JLA: Y1. I don't see how that one's germane to the discussion.)

The part with JLA Y1 was germane as it showed Ollie is willing to keep a secret from fellow heroes when it suits his purpose.

Covering up a rape because he was out-voted is a different class of reaction. (Incidentally, I've been surprised that this hasn't been more of an issue. Regardless of what Zatanna did to Dr. Light's mind, THEY LET A RAPIST OUT ON THE STREET. For Pete's sake, they weren't even sure it would take!) I'm not asking for anyone to be portrayed as Jesus. Just in character.
It's been awhile since I read the Longbow Hunters, but IIRC, there was no real alternative that didn't result in Dinah being raped. I have no problem with his actions there. Conversely, Ollie and the Thugs DID have other, more reasonable, more heroic, options when they arrived AFTER Sue's rape had occurred.

Secondly, I would infer from the story that a lot of the cover up was because of the "mistake". I wonder if they'd have been as secretive if things had gone to plan?
Given the circumstances presented here, absolutely.

To be honest, I haven't given it a lot of thought. Off the top of my head, I'd say that performing brain surgery, magical or not, to protect secret identities is wrong. It's much easier to just, you know, keep the secret.

(And before you start, I understand that this was common practice in the Silver Age. It also wasn't delved into as a separate issue. The creative decision to not highlight mindwipes removes any reasonable assumption that something could go wrong. Therefore, the audience is left to assume that it was a perfectly safe procedure that could not result in any negative ramifications.)


Did they let DR Light go? I figured they tossed him in prison after the whole thing, but now I am not certain.

This is how I see what happened:

Light gets caught and he gets severly beaten up, then procededs to taunt the Heroes (even commenting on wedding rings and such) to the point that they try a techinque, after much in fighting and discussion, that they had used as in the past just, one that as you say "perfectly safe procedure that could not result in any negative ramifications" but, with a slight twist. Batman catches them and in a moment of panic they use the "perfectly safe procedure that could not result in any negative ramifications". Now of course the "twist" did not work as expected, Ollie as shown was VERY down troden, to the point of loosing faith in something he highly believed in (something he even secretly funded) over the hole thing. Sure he did not rat out his friends or himself, Ollie has always been a bit selfish and was more then likely highly embaressed he went along with it. And as time pased he learned to live with what they did, even though he knew it was wrong.

It still confounds me that you and a few others think killing Light is so far and above removing the sadistic side of his personality. I see killing him at the least as a equal...

[Smarty Jones]

"It still confounds me that you and a few others think killing Light is so far and above removing the sadistic side of his personality. I see killing him at the least as a equal..."

Sometimes I read your posts, and I think you either are honestly clueless or you're trying on purpose not get people's points. Either way, you come off as incredibly dense.

The people are not saying they wanted to see Green Arrow or Hawkman commit wanton or premeditated murder. What they are saying given the nature of the events in "Identity Crisis 2" and their personalities, they could understand if they were in such a rage over the events that they killed Dr. Light. What they are saying is that given their established personalities, they could see either one trying to protect Sue Dibny to the point where they killed him accidentally.

Once Dr. Light was captured and started showing the graphic light images, they could see either Green Arrow or Hawkman stirred up. But once they cooled down to a more rational level they would see the danger has passed.

What is so disturbing about "Identity Crisis" is that after the second issue, the rape was never mentioned again. It only existed in that one book and never revisited, which makes it yet an unnecessary footnote in this series.

P.S. Maybe I overlooked it, but tell me in which "Identity Crisis" issue did Green Arrow quit The JLA. I saw nothing to suggest he quit after the Dr. Light incident, which would be contrary to the reasons he quit in canon.

[The Shadow]

What is so disturbing about "Identity Crisis" is that after the second issue, the rape was never mentioned again. It only existed in that one book and never revisited, which makes it yet an unnecessary footnote in this series.
That also bothered me.

It seemed the whole series was going to be about Sue, her rape, the mind wipes and Sue's murder... setting up a cool (though admittedly graphic) mystery.

It was crap, and didn't need to be done.

[pureclint]

Sometimes I read your posts, and I think you either are honestly clueless or you're trying on purpose not get people's points. Either way, you come off as incredibly dense.


Maybe you need to read the posts I am comenting on and the posts of other discussions on this matter, a lot of people have said they would have been fine with the scene if Carter killed Dr Light and the same for Ollie....

I said

So dead and not thinking is ok but alive and not being a criminal mastermind is not..

He replied

Given the circumstances presented here, absolutely.

That means to me he is ok with Ollie killing Light, I have never ONCE until your post seen one person mention Ollie or Carter killing anyone accidentely.

You do know Smarty that if you shoot someone with a arrow or hit them with a big mace fueled by Super Strength they can die right? So once you learn to take in all the data then start talking to me about clueless.

As to him quiting I would have to go reread the books to give you where I got the impression he quit. I do remember in 7 there was a scene of him leaving very distrought and stateing how the league was ruined but hey I might be wrong and he did not quit officially.

P.S. I still find it funny that you said I take it "persona"l but so far I am the one who keeps getting attacked personally for the sole fact that I think different then a few people.



And I am done with the IC discussion you guys hated it, I have stated what i dislike but that I enjoyed the series. This unlike more serious fact based issues this really comes down to personal prefernece like reviewing a movie. Have a good one.

[hitokiri_]

I
We may GET a good bondage comic! :D


that's why i love you.

[Apathy Boy]

I thought I was the only one who knew the Black Condor book existed! :eek:

I even have some Valiant Morales-drawn Turoky-goodness.

BTW, Rags will be drawing Wonder Woman in 2005.

'Tis enow to make me weep with joy.

We may GET a good bondage comic! :DWell, it's not Rags Morales, but we do have the FLASH/WONDER WOMAN crossover beginning in February ...


http://comics.toonzone.net/solicitations/2005-02/dcuniverse/flash219.jpg

[Smarty Jones]

"You do know Smarty that if you shoot someone with a arrow or hit them with a big mace fueled by Super Strength they can die right? So once you learn to take in all the data then start talking to me about clueless."

I read what everyone has stated concerning Green Arrow and Hawkman and I agree. Given the circumstances -- these two are walking in on an innocent victim being raped, with the victim being a friend and the wife of one of the JLA members and the attacker a villain -- and their personalities and tendencies, it would have been understandable that either man went into a rage and killed Dr. Light. In the heat of such moment, I think that is understandable.

But yet after cooling down and having a more rational state of mind, they decided to alter his personality. Green Arrow and Hawkman took part in a conspiracy to do psyhcological surgery. The former would be considered an act of defense (stopping a crime) while the latter would be considered a crime (an assault of their own).

I have to ask you: How old are you? You don't seem to grasp the nuances of such situations and your posts seem to not have much understanding of the context of life experiences.

"As to him quiting I would have to go reread the books to give you where I got the impression he quit. I do remember in 7 there was a scene of him leaving very distrought and stateing how the league was ruined but hey I might be wrong and he did not quit officially."

This is not the first time you have interpreted something in "Identity Crisis" that wasn't there. Green Arrow did not say anything about quitting The Justice League after the incident with Dr. Light. In canon, Green Arrow quit the team after Firestorm was introduced and he felt the team was moving away from fighting crime on a street level.

"P.S. I still find it funny that you said I take it "persona"l but so far I am the one who keeps getting attacked personally for the sole fact that I think different then a few people."

I have no problem if you like "Identity Crisis;" what I do have a problem with is your logic in defending it. It seems by reading your comments you didn't read about a lot of the characters in the Silver Age JLA prior to this story, nor do you have a grasp of the concepts of storytelling, superhero style or a mystery.

The basic plot and conclusion had incredibly gaping holes and inconsistencies. The book may have had some good interaction moments (Hal Jordan and Green Arrow talking at the gravesite, Superman and Ma Kent in the field) but it was blighted by an overall badly painted picture of The JLA and the DC Universe superheroes in general.

C'mon, look at the checklist:

* A hypocritical Superman that knows his teammates are doing acts he would consider criminal?

* The JLA has a clandestine inner group that altered villains' minds?

* Batman being assaulted by his own teammates to cover up one of their acts as a part of their cowardice?

* Sue Dibny retroactively raped for shock value that had nothing to do with her murder (not to mention it was clear in the first issue she was attacked, not what happened in the lame conclusion in the final issue)?

* An apparent off-his-rocker Elongated Man acting as if he was expecting his wife to talk to him from the grave?

* Arguably the most nonsensical conclusion to a major storyline I have ever seen? We have a long-time JLA associate who accidentally kills her friend yet brings a flamethrower "just in case," and has the father of another superhero killed even though there has never been a history of Jean Loring knowing who Jack Drake was, much less knowing Tim Drake was Robin. It's made even more hilarious by the fact that Robin's secret identity was a guarded secret within the Bat community at one point, much less the DC Universe.

Maybe people would not have been so pissed at "Identity Crisis" if it was an Elseworlds story, where continuity is not an issue and the creators have more license to play around with events. But that was not the case; this book is considered part of DC canon, which means a lot of what was seen contradicted so much with the established characters.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Well, it's not Rags Morales, but we do have the FLASH/WONDER WOMAN crossover beginning in February ...


http://comics.toonzone.net/solicitations/2005-02/dcuniverse/flash219.jpg


You know, I'm always up for a good bondage cover, but I really wish Howard Porter would back off the extreme-distorted-anatomy thing. As drawn, Wonder Woman is, what, 17 heads tall? Her proportions aren't too bad until you get to the lower rib cage - at which point it appears her upper body was grafted onto the lower body of someone 11 feet taller than her.

[pureclint]

I read what everyone has stated concerning Green Arrow and Hawkman and I agree. Given the circumstances -- these two are walking in on an innocent victim being raped, with the victim being a friend of one of the JLA members and the attacker a villain -- and their personalities and tendencies, it would have been understandable that either man went into a rage and killed Dr. Light. In the heat of such moment, I think that is understandable.

But yet after cooling down and having a more rational state of mind, they decided to alter his personality. Green Arrow and Hawkman took part in a conspiracy to do psyhcological surgery. The former would be considered an act of defense (stopping a crime) while the latter would be considered a crime (an assault of their own).

I have to ask you: How old are you? You don't seem to grasp the nuances of such situations and your posts seem to not have much understanding of the context of life experiences.



I am dropping the IC talk as I said, I feel it is reasonable to think they would do this.

But where do you come off talking about my life experiences you ass?

I have probably lived through more hardships then 90% of the country and if some lunatic (who again we have all admitted it was ok to kill) continues ranting on and on about raping my family(so there was NO cooling down period it is not like they waited a freaking week to do this he continued to goad them moments after raping a close friend), and I have a proven means of stopping that(but I guess you like your bad guys inept, Hey I am now batman Ill just forget to look under his mask or that he is bruce wayne) and I know the courts/prison sytem constantly fails yes I could see them altering his brain.

So I would try to(and therefore I can justify that they would to) protect my family and loved ones.

You would send him to jail and he would be out in a month a year whatever to rape your mother.

As I have said my tastes are different then yours, most Silver Age stories are wacky, fluffy (and are they all canon after CoIE?) crap to me, so I have no qualms about some one adding a dose of reality/darkness into it.

Geez even your high and mighty Superman has executed criminals, used Super Hypnotisim and let innocents die to gain favor with Lois...Hell Batman weilded a gun for a long time!

[CaptMagellan]

My problem with GA's characterization (in addition to what's already been listed by critics above) is that when confronted by Wally he fully defends and rationalizes the actions. From his words at least he feels that ultimately they were justified and RIGHT in what they did.

Every time Wally brings up a moral point (ones which, based on previous characterizations, GA should be agreeing with) GA tells him to stop judging.

I could possibly.....POSSIBLY... suspend my disbelief enough to believe that GA would keep a secret not to be a narc... but I just don't buy him justifying and rationalizing the actions that he supposedly disagreed with. He never had a problem with telling Hawkman or anyone else off to their face, in public, (hell even on TV in JLA Incarnations) when he thought they were wrong... why would he suddenly have a problem disagreeing with the choice in a private conversation with someone he's known and gotten along with for years.

Unless Meltzer is trying to portray him as actually condoning the actions.

Also, there's nothing in the series indicating that he quit the league over this. the 'walking away' scene is when everone went home from the controversial incident. Nowhere does he say that he left. It does hint that this was the beginning of his 'political' problems with Carter...which would indicate that he stayed in the league in order to have those 'political' debates that followed this initial falling out.

[Phoney Bone]

Well, it's not Rags Morales, but we do have the FLASH/WONDER WOMAN crossover beginning in February ...


http://comics.toonzone.net/solicitations/2005-02/dcuniverse/flash219.jpg
As usual, Porter draws a horrible Wonder Woman.....

...on the other hand, she's tied up AND blindfolded!

Moulston would be proud.

[pureclint]

My problem with GA's characterization (in addition to what's already been listed by critics above) is that when confronted by Wally he fully defends and rationalizes the actions. From his words at least he feels that ultimately they were justified and RIGHT in what they did.

Every time Wally brings up a moral point (ones which, based on previous characterizations, GA should be agreeing with) GA tells him to stop judging.

I could possibly.....POSSIBLY... suspend my disbelief enough to believe that GA would keep a secret not to be a narc... but I just don't buy him justifying and rationalizing the actions that he supposedly disagreed with. He never had a problem with telling Hawkman or anyone else off to their face, in public, (hell even on TV in JLA Incarnations) when he thought they were wrong... why would he suddenly have a problem disagreeing with the choice in a private conversation with someone he's known and gotten along with for years.

Unless Meltzer is trying to portray him as actually condoning the actions.

Also, there's nothing in the series indicating that he quit the league over this. the 'walking away' scene is when everone went home from the controversial incident. Nowhere does he say that he left. It does hint that this was the beginning of his 'political' problems with Carter...which would indicate that he stayed in the league in order to have those 'political' debates that followed this initial falling out.


Ok the point about him quitting is duely noted it was just my interpitation of the after effects and was wrong. Must have been Wally saying "You walked away, you let them do it" that led me to think that, since walking away usually means quitting.

And the arguement about Ollie/Wally is one I have never disputed, I just took it as he had learned to live with his actions, was embarased about it and was more like "you where not there" type of attidute. But remember this is all about Dr Light, Ollie could have felt more shame since he was depicted as being against the whole thing, but most people years later regret bad desiciions but do not want ot be chastized for them so I can understand (plus Ollie has always been selfish and is not quite the Hippy he was) his attitude even if I do not agree with his characterization 100%. However, with Bruce I truely think that, after rereading the dialogue with wally again, that Ollie felt bad about his actions. The whole unanimous thing is over played by the haters in the segment Ollie definenlty did not roll over and say "Ok lets mindwipe bats" nor does he seem nonchalant about it currently.

Anyway as I said I am not going to debate this anymore but I did want to validate CMs points.

[Phoney Bone]

that's why i love you.
Doesn't everybody?

[niall mc cann]

Wow! Look at those divided opinions!

I have to pick this up when it's collected!

[Screwtape]

Blech. Hated it. Not the worst thing I've ever read (that award goes to the old issues of "Supreme" I bought because I liked the Alan Moore run), but I waited for month after month to find out who the killer was and what motivated the killer, and I was just dumbfounded when I found out. Who cares? The explanation wasn't interesting, it doesn't explain the thirty-odd plot threads left dangling, and it didn't resolve the story to my satisfaction. Oh well. Just MHO.

edited: Sorry! Possible spoilers deleted!

[CaptMagellan]

Anyway as I said I am not going to debate this anymore but I did want to validate CMs points.

Thanks. As a new poster I appreciate that. :)

[Calamas]

It seemed the whole series was going to be about Sue, her rape, the mind wipes and Sue's murder... setting up a cool (though admittedly graphic) mystery.
It was crap, and didn't need to be done.
I’m not going to get into why the above was started if there was going to be no follow-through; it’s been covered. But there are still inconsistencies within the parts they did chose to follow. No has ever--or will ever be able to--explained why Batman had to be mindwiped, when he’s done far worse than everybody else in the room, with the exception of Dr. Light. But that’s been covered too. Here’s the new question, or at least new to me; if it’s been brought up, I’ve missed it:

How’s it possible for Ralph not to know about the mindwipes? Surely the second greatest detective in the DCU noticed Dr. Light never came to trial and his wife did not have to testify. Or did I just miss it.

[Smarty Jones]

"I have probably lived through more hardships then 90% of the country and if some lunatic (who again we have all admitted it was ok to kill) continues ranting on and on about raping my family(so there was NO cooling down period it is not like they waited a freaking week to do this he continued to goad them moments after raping a close friend), and I have a proven means of stopping that(but I guess you like your bad guys inept, Hey I am now batman Ill just forget to look under his mask or that he is bruce wayne) and I know the courts/prison sytem constantly fails yes I could see them altering his brain."

I think the issue here is really that you liked "Identity Crisis," everything else be damned. It seems to be more about you than about the other issues discussed, and that anyone who criticizes the story is seen as a threat to your satisfaction.

[bfrank]

I think the issue here is really that you liked "Identity Crisis," everything else be damned. It seems to be more about you than about the other issues discussed, and that anyone who criticizes the story is seen as a threat to your satisfaction.
you're doing the same thing but from your standpoint, so what's the big deal...

[Matt Algren]

The part with JLA Y1 was germane as it showed Ollie is willing to keep a secret from fellow heroes when it suits his purpose.Secretly funding the JLA is LIGHTYEARS away from hiding the fact that you've invaded and injured another and then assaulted a key ally so he wouldn't blow the whistle.

LIGHTYEARS.
Did they let DR Light go? I figured they tossed him in prison after the whole thing, but now I am not certain.

This is how I see what happened:

Light gets caught and he gets severly beaten up, then procededs to taunt the Heroes (even commenting on wedding rings and such) to the point that they try a techinque, after much in fighting and discussion, that they had used as in the past just, one that as you say "perfectly safe procedure that could not result in any negative ramifications" but, with a slight twist...Sorry, I have to stop you there to reiterate the point of the line of mine you referenced, emphasis added. I said "I understand that [removing pieces of memories] was common practice in the Silver Age. It also wasn't delved into as a separate issue. The creative decision to not highlight mindwipes removes any reasonable assumption that something could go wrong. Therefore, the audience is left to assume that it was a perfectly safe procedure that could not result in any negative ramifications."

The moment the act was highlighted, Meltzer created a question that hadn't existed before. Again, when it was a throwaway line to explain why Lex doesn't out Superman, it could be treated as a throwaway that was trivial (at best) to the story. That's not what we have here in IDC.

Back to your post......Batman catches them and in a moment of panic they use the "perfectly safe procedure that could not result in any negative ramifications". Now of course the "twist" did not work as expected, Ollie as shown was VERY down troden, to the point of loosing faith in something he highly believed in (something he even secretly funded) over the hole thing. Sure he did not rat out his friends or himself, Ollie has always been a bit selfish and was more then likely highly embaressed he went along with it. And as time pased he learned to live with what they did, even though he knew it was wrong.Again, heroes need to act heroically. My hunch is that Meltzer was trying to say that everyone's a hero, even if they've done something wrong, blah, blah, blah. That doesn't work with the icons in the DCU because they have to be better than that. Something that is unnatural in the real world has to be a standard for the JLA in the DCU. Otherwise, they aren't icons.

Even if I could accept the notion of these heroes doing such a thing, I would expect them to do more than learn to live with what they did. Accountability is so important here because without it the JLA turns into Ollie and the Thugs.
It still confounds me that you and a few others think killing Light is so far and above removing the sadistic side of his personality. I see killing him at the least as a equal...Like Smarty said, it has to do with timing. When Ollie walked into the room to find Dr. Light raping Sue, it would've been understandable, from a character standpoint, for Ollie to smash in Dr. Light's skull. After that was prevented, it would NOT have been reasonable, from a character standpoint, for Ollie to up and kill him.

Removing a part of his personality is something that took planning. The Justice League (emphasis on "Justice") doesn't do that. I don't think it was a coincidence that Meltzer chose rape as the catalyst for the JLA mentally raping Dr. Light.

Metaphor notwithstanding, I still think it was a stupid thing to put in a comic book. Even stupider to not mention it afterward. But that's another issue.

[Smarty Jones]

"So I would try to(and therefore I can justify that they would to) protect my family and loved ones.

You would send him to jail and he would be out in a month a year whatever to rape your mother."

So because I said The JLA altered the mind of a criminal somehow I'm begging for my loved one to be attacked?

That's so inane it's laughable. The reality is that The JLA in "Identity Crisis" did essentially a criminal act, one to which they hold their villains accountable. The fact they did it to a teammate to cover it up shows that they know their act was criminal.

Also, I'm not following your logic. Are you suggesting that it's more understandable to alter someone's mind after such an event than someone walking in on a loved one being attacked as such and using force to stop the act in question?

"As I have said my tastes are different then yours, most Silver Age stories are wacky, fluffy (and are they all canon after CoIE?) crap to me, so I have no qualms about some one adding a dose of reality/darkness into it."

Well, thank goodness I don't live with a mindset that most people are amoral, abusive and destructive criminals. I don't call that realism, unless you're one of the Trenchcoat Mafia.

Quite frankly, superhero stories don't work with elements of storytelling most likely to be seen on "The Shield." Not to mention having some dumb developments that are not consistent with continuity.

"Geez even your high and mighty Superman has executed criminals, used Super Hypnotisim and let innocents die to gain favor with Lois...Hell Batman weilded a gun for a long time!"

Again, making comments about characters without any context whatsoever. Has Superman killed before? Yes. Has he murdered anyone? No.

I assume you're talking about the Kryptonians in the alternate reality he was forced to kill with their version of Kryptonite. Those Krpytonians destroyed their version of Earth and Superman had no other choice on stopping them (again, it's interesting you're an advocate of mind-tampering but not for such actions stated above). Superman also showed a tremendous amount of grief and dejection for his actions.

Say what you want, but The JLA members in "Identity Crisis" -- most notably Green Arrow -- did not show remorse for their actions of altering people's minds. Green Arrow seemed upset over the mind wipe of Batman to keep their dirty little secret, but during his conversations with The Flash years later he showed no remorse.

As for Batman toting a gun, when was that? The early years of his creation, with more updated versions shown in "Batman: Year One." You're grabbing at straws here.

"you're doing the same thing but from your standpoint, so what's the big deal..."

And to think, you've yet to add anything beyond juvenile banter to this issue.

[pureclint]

I think Ollie acted as real person would have years after a mistake you don't stop trying to drag me back with personal insults Smarty..I am not getting into it. Your not going to convince me that I did not like the series or that Ollie was WAY out of character, he is a flawed character, he is selfish, he has made many other mistakes(and after 5 to 10 years and dying he has healed over his actions) so add one more ohh no. I am happy for you that you only like fluffy super heroics and that you hated IC. Because we all know how exciting it is to read about Heores who never falter.

I never said I don't condone killing of criminals, your the one who holds the heroes to a high standard pf perfection.

Both the Superman/Batman statements where used to show no Hero is perfect, extreme cricumstances call for extreme actions and that characters change with the time. Executing a person with out a trial is a crinimal act to you know. IC is all tied together by one theme to me:
Super Hero (Secret or Public) Identies are not infallable, Ollie, Clark, Hal etc know this. and I would not expect them or their love ones to live in constant fear or isolation. They may not like what had to be done but they did it for the safety of many innocent people.

But I only posted again to esentially ask you guys one question that I am curious about...

What would you have had Ollie do different(he really seems to be the crux of your out of character opposition)?
Go rat out his friends? Turn himself in to the police? Help the rapist escape?

P.S. IC is a launching point for other tales we have yet to see the full ramifications of the mind wipes..so acountability may still come(and they "nay" three where downtroden and felt the league was ruined that is remorse)

[Smarty Jones]

"I think Ollie acted as real person would have years after a mistake you don't stop trying to drag me back with personal insults Smarty..I am not getting into it."

Drag you back? You never left! You're the one who keeps saying "That was my last post," and then whenever someone posts a remark you're still on here. I thought you were leaving four posts ago?

"Your not going to convince me that I did not like the series or that Ollie was WAY out of character, he is a flawed character, he is selfish, he has made many other mistakes(and after 5 to 10 years and dying he has healed over his actions) so add one more ohh no."

That is my point -- to you, it's not really about how logical or illogical "Identity Crisis" is. You enjoy it and you think any comments that could contest your enjoyment or cause you to have mixed feelings is a personal challenge. That's why you're still posting, because you're only responding to those who challenge and criticize it.

"I am happy for you that you only like fluffy super heroics and that you hated IC. Because we all know how exciting it is to read about Heores who never falter."

Again, I don't think you have an idea what you're talking about. No one ever said superheroes had to be perfect beings, just human beings. I don't translate "humanstic" or "realistic" into amoral characters who have no regret over their actions.

This isn't "The Shield" here or "The Authority," both of which are filled with characters whose motives are not that different from the foes they fight. If it was either one, that would be appropriate for those characters -- who were created in that light to have questionable values. The JLA were not created in such light, which made a lot of what happened in "Identity Crisis" detestable.

"I never said I don't condone killing of criminals, your the one who holds the heroes to a high standard pf perfection."

That's because they are fictional paragons of truth and justice. I expect Green Arrow to have a higher moral ground than Deathstroke. I expect Superman to have more compassion than Lex Luthor. If that is not the case, why even have heroes, people whose values with which the common reader can identity as right and just?

If this was Apollo or Jack Hawksmoor, I may agree with you. But this is not.

"Both the Superman/Batman statements where used to show no Hero is perfect, extreme cricumstances call for extreme actions and that characters change with the time. Executing a person with out a trial is a crinimal act to you know."

The Kryptonians lost any right to a fair trial when they destroyed their planet and decided to destroy their alternate universe. Superman had no choice, especially since we're talking three people who had his matrix of powers (power levels plus skill). And unlike his apparent depiction in "Identity Crisis," we know Superman has shown remorse and grief over his actions, even though it was the right thing to do.

Again, Batman changed by going forward. In "Identity Crisis," we're talking about retro changes, changes put into the past of long-established characters. It's not like Hawkman or Green Arrow just became mind-alterers (moving forward); the book stated they ALWAYS were like this (moving backward). It's not progressive, but retconning.

"Super Hero (Secret or Public) Identies are not infallable, Ollie, Clark, Hal etc know this. and I would not expect them or their love ones to live in constant fear or isolation. They may not like what had to be done but they did it for the safety of many innocent people."

Again, Green Arrow had no remorse over his actions. Oliver Queen tried to rationalize in his mind it was right, but in reality what he did was criminal. We never heard Superman's perspective; we've been fed intimations that he is a moral hypocrite who knows The JLA were committing acts he would consider criminal.

The protecting the identity thing is even more contradictory when you figure how many of the heroes have some degree of public identity. In fact, only Batman and Superman have some aspect of a secret identity in the DC Universe, and Batman's is known by several of his most dangerous foes (Ra's al Ghul, Dr. Hugo Strange, Bane, David Cain, Hush, likely Lex Luthor and possibly The Joker). The Flash's identity was publicly known, The Elongated Man's is known, Kyle Rayner's has been found out by so many people, Wonder Woman and Aquaman have no secret identity at all, etc. What's the big secret? It's a shock when a hero DOES have a secret identity nowadays.

Also, if protecting identities are such a high priority, then why are Green Arrow and Flash saying their comrades' real names openly? All The Calculator did was eavesdrop in their conversations and now he must know the first names of half The JLA's identities. How careful is that?

Your comments would work if that mindset actually was executed in "Identity Crisis" and the DC Universe prior to the book. Had it been a villain who committed the crimes, I would agree. But when it was the loopy ex-wife of a JLA member -- plus adding in the aforementioned -- your comments ring hollow, because the loved ones of superheroes now should live in fear of and isolation from each other (talk about contradictory).

"But I only posted again to esentially ask you guys one question that I am curious about... What would you have had Ollie do different (he really seems to be the crux of your out of character opposition)? Go rat out his friends? Turn himself in to the police? Help the rapist escape?"

This has been answered several times, including by myself. The seven JLA members should have been held accountable for their actions and been expelled from the team. But since this is all a retcon, this did not happen at all.

That's another part of "Identity Crisis" that makes it deplorable. In order to have these talking points in the book, Brad Meltzer had to change continuity of long-established characters -- and in the end, all those changes had NOTHING to do with who killed Sue Dibny! Why go back in time and have Dibny raped by a character who never showed any history of sexual violence and then have The JLA become amoral violators themselves WHEN IT WAS NOT RELEVANT AT ALL TO THE STORY?!?! That is why people are generally pissed about the ending to "Identity Crisis."

"P.S. IC is a launching point for other tales we have yet to see the full ramifications of the mind wipes..so acountability may still come(and they 'nay' three where downtroden and felt the league was ruined that is remorse)."

In other words, it's too much to address it in the book that created such trash -- if it is ever addressed beyond "Identity Crisis." I'm sorry, this is not the '90s where people should have to be forced to buy other titles just to see how a story in another title plays out. The fact is that a lot of this stuff could have been addressed in other books without even having "Identity Crisis."

[king mob]

That also bothered me.

It seemed the whole series was going to be about Sue, her rape, the mind wipes and Sue's murder... setting up a cool (though admittedly graphic) mystery.

It was crap, and didn't need to be done.

It didn't and its offensive to see rape treated so casually as a throwaway plot device in a mainstream DC comic along with all the other snide bits of misogyny scattered around the book.
If the next issue had deleved more into Sue and Ralph coming to terms with it then it might, just might have been excusable.As it was it never happened and the end result is DC seem to think the abuse of women is a throwaway plot point and therefore carry on killing and abusing female characters guys.

If the point of the scene was to have Dr Light be set up as the likely suspect while showing a possible reason for Sue to have been killed, then surely a writer of the obvious talent of Meltzer could have come up with something else apart from having one of the few positive female DC characters undergoing a humiliating rape?

The series has left a nasty aftertaste, especially the way Jean is written off as "mad" and then dumped in Arkham with the Joker and his ilk which again treats a female charater badly with Meltzer's badly handled understanding of insanity.

I'm sad this will be the launching point for the restructure of the DCU over the next year or so, it could have been a great little well written mystery but instead we got a half arsed attempt at something "shocking" to try and shake things up.

[Huh?]

It didn't and its offensive to see rape treated so casually as a throwaway plot device in a mainstream DC comic along with all the other snide bits of misogyny scattered around the book.
If the next issue had deleved more into Sue and Ralph coming to terms with it then it might, just might have been excusable.As it was it never happened and the end result is DC seem to think the abuse of women is a throwaway plot point and therefore carry on killing and abusing female characters guys.

If the point of the scene was to have Dr Light be set up as the likely suspect while showing a possible reason for Sue to have been killed, then surely a writer of the obvious talent of Meltzer could have come up with something else apart from having one of the few positive female DC characters undergoing a humiliating rape?

The series has left a nasty aftertaste, especially the way Jean is written off as "mad" and then dumped in Arkham with the Joker and his ilk which again treats a female charater badly with Meltzer's badly handled understanding of insanity.

I'm sad this will be the launching point for the restructure of the DCU over the next year or so, it could have been a great little well written mystery but instead we got a half arsed attempt at something "shocking" to try and shake things up.I understand what your saying about the rape and the overall lack of good writing for female characters. I didn't understand the whole rape thing anyway. Dr. Light goes into space and decides to rape somebody? What? I can't wait for the next crossover when we're treated to the Joker, Lex Luthor and Dr Freeze gangbanging Lois Lane on Pluto.

The rape was a cheap device, and was really out of place in the DCU. I was willing to let it go early on because I thought it would have some bearing on the story - but it didn't and didn't need to be in the story. I was excited for this after the first couple issues. But slowly, with issues 4-7, my hopes faded. The conclusion was the biggest ripoff I have read in a while. To me, there was a lot of potential wasted with this mini.

[JeffreyWKramer]

I can't wait for the next crossover when we're treated to the Joker, Lex Luthor and Dr Freeze gangbanging Lois Lane on Pluto.

No, DC has to keep amping up the level of nastiness. IC gave us Sue Dibny's rape. ACTION gave us Prius raping women to death.

Thus, I predict that if they do the story they describe, Lois' rape-gang will also include Grodd and a mind-controlled Krypto. The only question is wheter Austen or Meltzer will be the writer, or whether it will be a coordinated effort.

[king mob]

I understand what your saying about the rape and the overall lack of good writing for female characters. I didn't understand the whole rape thing anyway. Dr. Light goes into space and decides to rape somebody? What? I can't wait for the next crossover when we're treated to the Joker, Lex Luthor and Dr Freeze gangbanging Lois Lane on Pluto.




The way DC treat women characters i can see this as a 64 page hardcover with an introduction by Michael Winner titled Phwoar!!! Rape!

[CaptMagellan]

This has been answered several times, including by myself. The seven JLA members should have been held accountable for their actions and been expunded from the team. But since this is all a retcon, this did not happen at all.

Although I would have preferred the rape, the conspiracy, etc. to have never been written (I also agree that unethical behavior does not automatically equal realism), once I read #2 the ousting of the seven conspirators (at least those still alive) was exactly what I was hoping to see. That's what I was hoping the big shakeup to the DC universe was going to be.

I thought the only realistic and plausible resolution to the mini was for all of this to come out and for the power pact members to essentially be persona non grata in the Universe.

Then, with the spotlight on these characters, the authors of their respective books would get to attempt telling compelling stories about their quests for redemption and the consequences of their dirty secret.

This may still happen but the Flash's silence, the possibility of Supes knowing, the possibility of Batman knowing/having done something similar just sullies the whole league.

[Huh?]

Although I would have preferred the rape, the conspiracy, etc. to have never been written (I also agree that unethical behavior does not automatically equal realism), once I read #2 the ousting of the seven conspirators (at least those still alive) was exactly what I was hoping to see. That's what I was hoping the big shakeup to the DC universe was going to be.

I thought the only realistic and plausible resolution to the mini was for all of this to come out and for the power pact members to essentially be persona non grata in the Universe.

Then, with the spotlight on these characters, the authors of their respective books would get to attempt telling compelling stories about their quests for redemption and the consequences of their dirty secret.

This may still happen but the Flash's silence, the possibility of Supes knowing, the possibility of Batman knowing/having done something similar just sullies the whole league.Please send your resume to DC, maybe they could make you editor in chief because your statement made a whole lot of sense and should have been the route DC took with IC. :)

[Matt Algren]

In answer to your question:
What would you have had Ollie do different(he really seems to be the crux of your out of character opposition)?Ideally, he should have done what the character tends to do, which is to not allow such an obvious breach of ethics to occur. But given that that didn't happen,
Go rat out his friends?Yes.
Turn himself in to the police? Yes.
Help the rapist escape?WTF? Seriously, I'm trying to follow your logic here, but I don't get this. Who gave you the idea that Dr. Light should be let go?
P.S. IC is a launching point for other tales we have yet to see the full ramifications of the mind wipes..so acountability may still come(and they "nay" three where downtroden and felt the league was ruined that is remorse)No. People paid for a limited series with a beginning, a middle, and an end. That's what we should've gotten.

[bfrank]

No. People paid for a limited series with a beginning, a middle, and an end. That's what we should've gotten.
ahh...but part of the hype, for months was that this was a launching point, so people knew what they were getting...

[bfrank]

So because I said The JLA altered the mind of a criminal somehow I'm begging for my loved one to be attacked?

That's so inane it's laughable. The reality is that The JLA in "Identity Crisis" did essentially a criminal act, one to which they hold their villains accountable. The fact they did it to a teammate to cover it up shows that they know their act was criminal.

Also, I'm not following your logic. Are you suggesting that it's more understandable to alter someone's mind after such an event than someone walking in on a loved one being attacked as such and using force to stop the act in question?



Well, thank goodness I don't live with a mindset that most people are amoral, abusive and destructive criminals. I don't call that realism, unless you're one of the Trenchcoat Mafia.

Quite frankly, superhero stories don't work with elements of storytelling most likely to be seen on "The Shield." Not to mention having some dumb developments that are not consistent with continuity.



Again, making comments about characters without any context whatsoever. Has Superman killed before? Yes. Has he murdered anyone? No.

I assume you're talking about the Kryptonians in the alternate reality he was forced to kill with their version of Kryptonite. Those Krpytonians destroyed their version of Earth and Superman had no other choice on stopping them (again, it's interesting you're an advocate of mind-tampering but not for such actions stated above). Superman also showed a tremendous amount of grief and dejection for his actions.

Say what you want, but The JLA members in "Identity Crisis" -- most notably Green Arrow -- did not show remorse for their actions of altering people's minds. Green Arrow seemed upset over the mind wipe of Batman to keep their dirty little secret, but during his conversations with The Flash years later he showed no remorse.

As for Batman toting a gun, when was that? The early years of his creation, with more updated versions shown in "Batman: Year One." You're grabbing at straws here.



And to think, you've yet to add anything beyond juvenile banter to this issue.


If you don't like the mirror, be angry with your self, how ever you are describing yourself here, kiddo:

I think the issue here is really that you liked "Identity Crisis," everything else be damned. It seems to be more about you than about the other issues discussed, and that anyone who criticizes the story is seen as a threat to your satisfaction.


so again, what's the problem....

[Huh?]

Can anyone tell me when the rape would fall in our time? Meaning the rape that was recounted in IC would take place at about what issue # or year in JLA, Superman, Batman etc?

[pureclint]

Neither of you fully answered my question...(and necktie the three little bits where just posssibiities, by "help the rapist escape" I obviously ment fight the rest of the JLA and try to save Light from the mind alteration)

Ollie gets out voted in the Light mindwipe what should he have done?

I also have no idea where you get "reall = amoral". Real (non perfect) people make mistakes or have moments of poor judgement, regret is not a constant feling either. Any person who makes a mistake does not dwell on it for the rest of their lives they usually progress ebyond the regret into a more compliant state.

[Matt Algren]

ahh...but part of the hype, for months was that this was a launching point, so people knew what they were getting...You know, I saw that one coming. In fact, I started a post providing a link to the official press release and decided that it wasn't necessary. But since you asked, here's the official press release (http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=3395) from March 16, 2004. Official Press Release

The deadliest secret…
IDENTITY CRISIS

At the end of 2003, Wizard Magazine declared IDENTITY CRISIS the number one pick in its 2004 preview, calling it "the next great DC epic… a redefining of the DCU from top to bottom."

IDENTITY CRISIS is not a crossover in the traditional sense, but its effects will be reflected throughout the DCU titles. Its repercussions are so profound, so encompassing, IDENTITY CRISIS already is inspiring creative talent to incorporate direct effects as well as subtle nuances into upcoming storylines. It will have an impact on how the DCU is perceived both immediately and in the future.

IDENTITY CRISIS is a 7-issue DCU limited series by New York Times best-selling author Brad Meltzer (The Zero Game, GREEN ARROW: ARCHER'S QUEST), illustrated by the JSA and HAWKMAN team of Rags Morales & Michael Bair, with covers by Aspen Studios' Michael Turner (SUPERMAN/BATMAN).

By the end of June's issue #1, you'll realize you're seeing the DCU from a whole new perspective. You'll suspect a most dangerous secret held by the members of the JLA - a secret they'll fight to keep, a secret they're willing to sacrifice themselves for. But this sacrifice, this victim seems almost too much for them to bear.

You'll know enough to hold your breath until issue #2 to see who may be the next victim - and what other secrets may be revealed.

Meltzer, a gifted suspense storyteller known as much for his thorough research as for his arresting plots, melds his uncanny knack for dramatic pacing with his passionate knowledge of DCU heroes and their histories. Morales, always a master craftsman, delivers on a grand scale, balancing action-packed sequences with evocative moments of revealing characterization. Bair, with his dramatic inking style, brings an added dynamism to Morales' detailed pencils. Turner, one of the most popular artists of our time, adds compelling cover art that blends his modern artistic sense with a fan's reverence for these classic characters… and their fates.

This project is supported with a full-color, 22" x 34" poster, a 5-page preview in Wizard #150, trade and house ads, and a minisite at www.dccomics.com. Retailers, please consult your Order Form for a special ordering incentive.

IDENTITY CRISIS is 7-issue limited series edited by Mike Carlin. The 48-page issue #1 is scheduled to be in stores on June 9 with a price of $3.95 U.S. Subsequent issues are 40 pages at $3.50 U.S.

That's it. The entire thing. They never said that it was a "launching point" for other stories or that I'd have to buy God-knows-how-many-books for God-knows-how-many-months to get the entire story. They said that the direct effects and subtle nuances would be seen in other books.

Distrust in the JLA, Atom's journey, and the new rapetastic tone of the DCU, can be called direct effects or subtle nuances. The location of Luthor's armor, along with all the other dangling threads that we were led to think were important, cannot.

[Matt Algren]

Neither of you fully answered my question...(and necktie the three little bits where just posssibiities, by "help the rapist escape" I obviously ment fight the rest of the JLA and try to save Light from the mind alteration)

Ollie gets out voted in the Light mindwipe what should he have done?

I also have no idea where you get "reall = amoral". Real (non perfect) people make mistakes or have moments of poor judgement, regret is not a constant feling either. Any person who makes a mistake does not dwell on it for the rest of their lives they usually progress ebyond the regret into a more compliant state.
1. Not "obviously".

2. Yes I did answer your question fully. Go back and reread, please. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200.

3. Non-perfect is acceptable. Causing harm to others and harming still others to escape repercussions is not.

4. I can't explain it any better than I already have several times. If you don't understand that actions have consequences and iconic heroes should be prepared to accept those consequences (and that if they don't, they cease to be heroes) I can't help you.

[Phoney Bone]

Can anyone tell me when the rape would fall in our time? Meaning the rape that was recounted in IC would take place at about what issue # or year in JLA, Superman, Batman etc?
I would think that this took place around issue #200 of Justice League of America. Zatanna is wearing her her Perez-designed costume, which she began wearing shortly after Green Arrow quit in #181-182. However, Arrow re-joined in #200 (Zee was still wearing this costume). No Hawkgirl was mentioned or seen during this (she had been separated from Hawkman), so that puts it in the time period. Dr. Light had already appeared (and been beaten with the rest of the Fearsome Five) by the New Teen Titans in issue #7 of their comic. His appearances in the early issues of New Teen Titans was the first time he incorporated the light tech into his costume, instead of various guns and weapons. In IDC, his light powers were in his costume.

Still with me folks?

Dr. Light formed the Fearsome Five as a group to take out the League. The only reason he went after the Titans was as trial run. To hone the teamwork of the Five. He was no more or less competant than any other super-villian. It wasn't until around issue #19 that Light started to become an imbecile (the issue of New Teen Titans where Hawkman guest stars). At the end of the issue, Hawkman give Light a look that makes him faint. Every appearance after that issue, Light is a inept moron.

So...That places the mind/personality-tampering (it wasn't just a simple memory wipe, like they did with Batman and the others) of Dr.Light somwhere between Justice League of America #200 and The New Teen Titans #19.

And all of that came from memory. Am I a geek or what? :p

http://milehighcomics.com/cgi-bin/backissue.cgi?action=fullsize&issue=45019795106%20200%20CGC%209.6

http://milehighcomics.com/cgi-bin/backissue.cgi?action=fullsize&issue=86228870930%2019

[Matt Algren]

And all of that came from memory. Am I a geek or what?
Not just A geek. King geek. All hail!

[Phoney Bone]

Not just A geek. King geek. All hail!
You may kiss the royal replica Legion flight ring.

[Huh?]

I would think that this took place around issue #200 of Justice League of America. Zatanna is wearing her her Perez-designed costume, which she began wearing shortly after Green Arrow quit in #181-182. However, Arrow re-joined in #200 (Zee was still wearing this costume). No Hawkgirl was mentioned or seen during this (she had been separated from Hawkman), so that puts it in the time period. Dr. Light had already appeared (and been beaten with the rest of the Fearsome Five) by the New Teen Titans in issue #7 of their comic. His appearances in the early issues of New Teen Titans was the first time he incorporated the light tech into his costume, instead of various guns and weapons. In IDC, his light powers were in his costume.

Still with me folks?

Dr. Light formed the Fearsome Five as a group to take out the League. The only reason he went after the Titans was as trial run. To hone the teamwork of the Five. He was no more or less competant than any other super-villian. It wasn't until around issue #19 that Light started to become an imbecile (the issue of New Teen Titans where Hawkman guest stars). At the end of the issue, Hawkman give Light a look that makes him faint. Every appearance after that issue, Light is a inept moron.

So...That places the mind/personality-tampering (it wasn't just a simple memory wipe, like they did with Batman and the others) of Dr.Light somwhere between Justice League of America #200 and The New Teen Titans #19.

And all of that came from memory. Am I a geek or what? :p

http://milehighcomics.com/cgi-bin/backissue.cgi?action=fullsize&issue=45019795106%20200%20CGC%209.6

http://milehighcomics.com/cgi-bin/backissue.cgi?action=fullsize&issue=86228870930%2019So, that puts the incident in 1982. Which means everything after that technically happened after all of these mind wipes. That's 22 years of stories!

and, you are not a geek... nerd, yes. :D

[Phoney Bone]

So, that puts the incident in 1982. Which means everything after that technically happened after all of these mind wipes. That's 22 years of stories!

and, you are not a geek... nerd, yes. :D
Notice the coveer art on those two links? I know this because I worship the ground George Perez trodeth upon and the only true comic knowledge I have locked away in my LTM are books he has touched with his magical presence......thus, making me a geek.





Or a stalker. :eek:

[Corrina]

Dr. Light was also the villian in the first revamp of the Teen Titans, the 1970s series by Bob Rozakis.

Light attacked and defeated all the Titans by sending out a false alarm from their cave headquarters.

But he was defeated by none other than...Mal Duncan! Who used an exo-skeleton and the uniform of the old Guardian character that the Titans inexplicably had in storage.

I also remember some really bad artwork in that issue.

*Oh, the presence of the Guardian costume was later explained by the first Guardian (I'm talking the guy with the blue spandex, golden shield & helmet) being a great-uncle of Roy Harper aka Speedy. Speedy showed up later as a guest-star in the Superman Family, investigating what had happened to his late relative. The answer had something to do with an army of Jimmy Olsen clones but my memory is fuzzy on that.

Mal ditched the exo-skeleton and Guardian uniform in short order and later obtained a mystical horn from the Angel Gabriel. But apparently all this was even too silly for him and he quit the hero business and married Karen (forget the last name) aka the Bumblebee. They showed up in Perez' run but I forget what happened to them eventually.

But...back to IC, that defeat by Mal Duncan seemed to me the first time Dr. Light was turned into a blithering idiot. C'mon. Mal was the Titan mascot! But, of course, it's all out of continuity and can't be used as part of the retcon.....so all this is just me blathering on.

[Corrina]

Notice the coveer art on those two links? I know this because I worship the ground George Perez trodeth upon and the only true comic knowledge I have locked away in my LTM are books he has touched with his magical presence......thus, making me a geek.
Or a stalker. :eek:

Do you have the Wolfman/Perez Fantastic Four issues?

[Phoney Bone]

Do you have the Wolfman/Perez Fantastic Four issues?
Do I ?

You betcher sweet bippy I got 'em!

My favorite of the Wolfman/Perez Fantastic Four is the Annual (#14) where The Salem's Seven try to resurrect Nicholas Scratch, Agatha Harkness' son.

Speaking of Perez and the Fantastic Four, the first Marvel book I can recall picking out on the spinner rack and saying, "Mama, I want THIS one," was FF #186

And speaking of the League, the first DC was JLA #

http://milehighcomics.com/cgi-bin/backissue.cgi?action=fullsize&issue=30949298416%2014

http://milehighcomics.com/cgi-bin/backissue.cgi?action=fullsize&issue=30929984076%20186

http://milehighcomics.com/cgi-bin/backissue.cgi?action=enlarge&issue=45019795106%20148

Damn, I'm old.

[Calamas]

I thought the only realistic and plausible resolution to the mini was for all of this to come out and for the power pact members to essentially be persona non grata in the Universe.

Then, with the spotlight on these characters, the authors of their respective books would get to attempt telling compelling stories about their quests for redemption and the consequences of their dirty secret.
Please send your resume to DC, maybe they could make you editor in chief because your statement made a whole lot of sense and should have been the route DC took with IC. :)

I agree with Huh?--wholeheartedly. Add my name to the petition:

CaptMagellan for DC Editor-in-chief

[Phoney Bone]

The Power Pact (especially with Jordan on the way back) have become...



...wait for it...




...the only true "outsiders" in the DCU.

[Corrina]

Phoney, the first JLA I have is the induction into the League of...Ralph Dibny!

To which Sue has this to say: "It's about time!"

I also have the issue where it's revealed Black Canary is actually her own daughter. It's complicated but there was a mind-wipe involved. :)

[Smarty Jones]

"Although I would have preferred the rape, the conspiracy, etc. to have never been written (I also agree that unethical behavior does not automatically equal realism), once I read #2 the ousting of the seven conspirators (at least those still alive) was exactly what I was hoping to see. That's what I was hoping the big shakeup to the DC universe was going to be."

The sad part is the signs were aligned to do this type of story without retconning continuity. Basically a character like The Key -- who was altered by Zatanna -- could have fit into this story.

I also was expecting the old satellite JLA members to face some sort of retribution from the superhero community for their actions, especially now that Hal Jordan would be coming back to life. But we're cheated of that, and instead we're left with the image of Zatanna, Green Arrow, etc. not having to deal with any consequences.

[Dr. Hfuhruhurr]

Do I ?

You betcher sweet bippy I got 'em!

My favorite of the Wolfman/Perez Fantastic Four is the Annual (#14) where The Salem's Seven try to resurrect Nicholas Scratch, Agatha Harkness' son.

Speaking of Perez and the Fantastic Four, the first Marvel book I can recall picking out on the spinner rack and saying, "Mama, I want THIS one," was FF #186

And speaking of the League, the first DC was JLA #

http://milehighcomics.com/cgi-bin/backissue.cgi?action=fullsize&issue=30949298416%2014

http://milehighcomics.com/cgi-bin/backissue.cgi?action=fullsize&issue=30929984076%20186

http://milehighcomics.com/cgi-bin/backissue.cgi?action=enlarge&issue=45019795106%20148

Damn, I'm old.


Got you beat, bud. Mine was FF 167 with the Hulk vs. the Thing.... old? Man, right now I'm happy to see the gray hairs just because they're, you know, hair.

[CaptMagellan]

I agree with Huh?--wholeheartedly. Add my name to the petition:

CaptMagellan for DC Editor-in-chief

Aw shucks. :D You guys are making me blush.


But seriously, why is it so unreasonable to expect resolution within the mini-series? Not "completely dealt with....no more mileage in this idea" resolution. But the resolution of issues within the context of the story so that other authors can continue with their own threads based upon those in the mini instead of having to resolve the ones that Meltzer failed to tie up.

It's hard not to see this as either a marketing gimmick or bad writing (or both) when the most interesting part of the series (IMHO), namely the conspiracy, wasn't resolved at all.

[CaptMagellan]

The sad part is the signs were aligned to do this type of story without retconning continuity. Basically a character like The Key -- who was altered by Zatanna -- could have fit into this story.

I loved Morrison's take on The Key so I would've loved to see him as the villain.

But really, anyone but Jean "I'm burnin' for you Ray!" Loring would have been a better villain.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Ollie gets out voted in the Light mindwipe what should he have done?

Tried to talk some sense into Hal. Failing that, fight until he was KO'd. And once he woke up, assuming he wasn't also mind-wiped, contact J'onn and Superman.

Heroism isn't about doing the easy thing. Of course, Meltzer's real message is apparently that heroism cannot be pure, and that if it appears to exist at all, you're most likely really seeing either delusion or hypocricy.

[stealthwise]

Tried to talk some sense into Hal. Failing that, fight until he was KO'd. And once he woke up, assuming he wasn't also mind-wiped, contact J'onn and Superman.

Heroism isn't about doing the easy thing. Of course, Meltzer's real message is apparently that heroism cannot be pure, and that if it appears to exist at all, you're most likely really seeing either delusion or hypocricy.

Wait, didn't Hal vote AGAINST the mindwipe... just a second.

Sure looks that way to me.

[yeoman]

You may kiss the royal replica Legion flight ring.


I heard Tenzil gets a cut of the royalties on those.


(Relatively obscure and not that funny Legion joke for those that don't get it.)

[yeoman]

I would think that this took place around issue #200 of Justice League of America. Zatanna is wearing her her Perez-designed costume, which she began wearing shortly after Green Arrow quit in #181-182. However, Arrow re-joined in #200 (Zee was still wearing this costume). No Hawkgirl was mentioned or seen during this (she had been separated from Hawkman), so that puts it in the time period. Dr. Light had already appeared (and been beaten with the rest of the Fearsome Five) by the New Teen Titans in issue #7 of their comic. His appearances in the early issues of New Teen Titans was the first time he incorporated the light tech into his costume, instead of various guns and weapons. In IDC, his light powers were in his costume.

Still with me folks?

Dr. Light formed the Fearsome Five as a group to take out the League. The only reason he went after the Titans was as trial run. To hone the teamwork of the Five. He was no more or less competant than any other super-villian. It wasn't until around issue #19 that Light started to become an imbecile (the issue of New Teen Titans where Hawkman guest stars). At the end of the issue, Hawkman give Light a look that makes him faint. Every appearance after that issue, Light is a inept moron.

So...That places the mind/personality-tampering (it wasn't just a simple memory wipe, like they did with Batman and the others) of Dr.Light somwhere between Justice League of America #200 and The New Teen Titans #19.

And all of that came from memory. Am I a geek or what? :p

http://milehighcomics.com/cgi-bin/backissue.cgi?action=fullsize&issue=45019795106%20200%20CGC%209.6

http://milehighcomics.com/cgi-bin/backissue.cgi?action=fullsize&issue=86228870930%2019

It is, however, worth noting that when Light Appears in TNTT #7, which, as you note, is the first time his powers are in his costume, The Titans pretty much sneer and laugh at the idea of fighting him, as if he had always been a joke in the Hero community.

Also, while I'd have check, IC #2 would imply that light became an idoit before ever meeting the Titans. Which is impossible given that his powers were in a gun before that, something he clearly didn't have when he fought the League.

What makes even less sense is that in IC #2 Light is a monster that it takes most of the Leauge to bring down physically. In early issues of the New Teen Titans Robin can slap him around.

Edit: I'll have to take you on your word on Light getting even dumber, as I'm getting all my info from TNTT Archives I picked up cheap in the last month or so.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Wait, didn't Hal vote AGAINST the mindwipe... just a second.

Sure looks that way to me.

Which makes it even dumber. If Ollie had been a lone standout, he should have still fought, but who seriously believes anyone there could have forced the issue if Hal had just said "No way?" What, *Hawkman* is gonna take out Hal Jordan? Not very likely. I note he's also known specifically for *willpower*... you know, things like self-determination and resisting peer pressure...

[Smarty Jones]

"Which makes it even dumber. If Ollie had been a lone standout, he should have still fought, but who seriously believes anyone there could have forced the issue if Hal had just said 'No way?' What, *Hawkman* is gonna take out Hal Jordan? Not very likely. I note he's also known specifically for *willpower*... you know, things like self-determination and resisting peer pressure..."

Well, just to play devil's advocate, The Flash was on the side that agreed to the mind wipe of Dr. Light so I could see him taking on Hal Jordan if it came down to it. The Flash is fairly powerful himself and with his speed would present problems for even Jordan.

But then again, I have a problem with Barry Allen voting for this in the first place (hitting my head on the computer because of the moral quagmire that is "Identity Crisis").

[The Shadow]

But seriously, why is it so unreasonable to expect resolution within the mini-series? Not "completely dealt with....no more mileage in this idea" resolution. But the resolution of issues within the context of the story so that other authors can continue with their own threads based upon those in the mini instead of having to resolve the ones that Meltzer failed to tie up.

It's hard not to see this as either a marketing gimmick or bad writing (or both) when the most interesting part of the series (IMHO), namely the conspiracy, wasn't resolved at all.
Ah... the MILLION dollar question!

[The Shadow]

(hitting my head on the computer for the moral quagmire that is "Identity Crisis").
Don't hurt yourself! LOL :p

[JeffreyWKramer]

[color=darkred][font=arial]Well, just to play devil's advocate, The Flash was on the side that agreed to the mind wipe of Dr. Light so I could see him taking on Hal Jordan if it came down to it. The Flash is fairly powerful himself and with his speed would present problems for even Jordan.

Nah. Hal would have problems *beating* Barry, but that's irrelevant to the situation at hand. He can just put himself in a force bubble that Barry would be completely unable to crack, and he'd easily be able to prevent Z from conducting the mindwipe.

[lonewolf23k]

Only thing that surprises me is how over 60% of readers on this board could think Identity Crisis was anything other then pure BS... More so that you could've redone the whole thing much better, without even sinking to the level of mature elements added just for shock value.

For exemple: Sue Dibny's rape? Completly unnecessary. You could've done a much better "emotional impact" scene by just having stand around her, chatting politely, if threateningly, before the Justice League arrived, so he could face them and smirk at Ralph Dibny: "I was just talking to your lovely wife.. ...I really have to come over to your place sometime.."

There. No Rape. And in fact, this is even more frightening, because then the reader is left to imagine what Dr Light could possibly do if left unchecked.

Frankly, Mr Meltzer, I'm very disappointed.

[Smarty Jones]

"Nah. Hal would have problems *beating* Barry, but that's irrelevant to the situation at hand. He can just put himself in a force bubble that Barry would be completely unable to crack, and he'd easily be able to prevent Z from conducting the mindwipe."

The fact we're even discussing The Flash vs. Green Lantern for the right to tamper with Dr. Light's mind is making me hit my head on the computer even more.

What's even more disgusting is that both Barry Allen and Hal Jordan agreed to mind wipe BATMAN yet were at odds about Dr. Light (still hitting my head on the computer because of "Identity Crisis").

[heystacy]

Why didn't they mindwipe Dr. Light so he would do something productive other than be "less dangerous." Why not make him a vegetable, or a nurse's assistant. Something other than a villain. What the hell did the mindwipe do anyways, just make him a coward?

[comic_lover]

Mods: Go ahead and integrate this into one of the other IC threads if it was inappropriate for me to start a new one.

Now that IDENTITY CRISIS has wrapped up, what is your verdict? Good, bad, ugly?

Personally, I actually REALLY liked it. The reason I really liked Identity Crisis was because we saw so little of the big 3 (Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman). With the exception of one issue, we really only saw Batman & Superman through the eyes of the "Tier 2" heroes. It was interesting to see how much respect, reverence, fear, and even resentment the other heroes hold for them.

It actually read more like a Marvel story written by Bendis (heavy on mood, characterization, dialogue). IMO, this story will (if it hasn't already) get more Marvel readers reading DC again.
I consider myself a Marvel guy (with the exception of Batman and to a lesser extent, Superman) but I decided to check out IDENTITY CRISIS. Now I'm buying Green Lantern, Flash, Superman, etc. again.

THOUGHTS? Bad,just really bad.

[StoneGold]

Why didn't they mindwipe Dr. Light so he would do something productive other than be "less dangerous." Why not make him a vegetable, or a nurse's assistant. Something other than a villain. What the hell did the mindwipe do anyways, just make him a coward?
Because that wasn't the plan. Batman f'd it up.

[Huh?]

I can't remember this. I don't have the issues in front of me because I'm at work, but did they mind wipe Sue too?

[king mob]

Only thing that surprises me is how over 60% of readers on this board could think Identity Crisis was anything other then pure BS... More so that you could've redone the whole thing much better, without even sinking to the level of mature elements added just for shock value.

For exemple: Sue Dibny's rape? Completly unnecessary. You could've done a much better "emotional impact" scene by just having stand around her, chatting politely, if threateningly, before the Justice League arrived, so he could face them and smirk at Ralph Dibny: "I was just talking to your lovely wife.. ...I really have to come over to your place sometime.."

There. No Rape. And in fact, this is even more frightening, because then the reader is left to imagine what Dr Light could possibly do if left unchecked.

Frankly, Mr Meltzer, I'm very disappointed.

Yes but you forget that DC enjoy making female characters suffer and making rape a trivial plot point to make books seem edgy and realistic to the passing fanboy.

Subtlety seems to be a thing of the past, as does actually treating certain subjects with a bit more respect and effort.

[Gingold]

I found IC to be flawed but compelling for the first 4 or 5 issues. I thought the art was very good, I liked how Meltzer showed the interaction of the characters,the villains were nicely portrayed, it seemed like it was an interesting mystery to be solved, and I actually like the idea of showing the less than perfects aspects of the earlier days- ths was despite the fact that one of my favorite characters was killed off and retroactively raped. But the ending killed the whole thing for me. Like most readers, I immediately suspected Jean the moment she survived her attack, but thought- "that's just too damned obvious. He's a better writer than that." And she gave it away with a slip of a tongue ("did they ever who wrote that note?" arrrgghhh.). It's not really a mystery if it only gets solved because the killer gives it away him/herself!!! And how did Jean know who Tim was, let alone his dad? Does no one edit these books anymore? It was an accident? She just happened to pack a flamethrower and a gun, just in case? She left footprints on her brain? Argggggggg. Ths could have been good. But it turned out to be the most disapointing comic of the year.

[Calamas]

. . . And she gave it away with a slip of a tongue ("did they ever who wrote that note?" arrrgghhh.). It's not really a mystery if it only gets solved because the killer gives it away him/herself! . . .
Exactly! One of my biggest pet peeves. In the last decade or so, Robert B. Parker has done this a lot. Travel three hundred pages beside a detective only to have the case solve itself. And killer often walks away free because there’s no proof. The protagonist was only there for wisecracks and to beat people up. But Brad Meltzer was always better than this, and had that one last surprise up his sleeve. Why he didn’t take the same care here that he does in his novels, I’ll never understand. His name is still on both.

[Mister Mets]

Good. Enjoyable suspense, and battle sequences, but a lot of major developments were glossed over, and it really wasn't very self-contained. There was all the cliche of three people realizing who the killer is at the same time.

[heystacy]

Because that wasn't the plan. Batman f'd it up.

Thanks for the input.

By coincidence the mind alterling fails when Dr. Light sees the League beating up on Deathstroke. Now he wants to challenege the Titans again. So is he this monster of a villain, or somewhat mild-altered man who know's he's been tampered with?

[comic_lover]

Yes but you forget that DC enjoy making female characters suffer and making rape a trivial plot point to make books seem edgy and realistic to the passing fanboy.

Subtlety seems to be a thing of the past, as does actually treating certain subjects with a bit more respect and effort. Sounds like the old " less is more " arguement... A Nightmare On Elm St. or Psycho ? I prefer psychological titilation over saturation any day... :cool:

[GUTB]

IC sucked.

The mini was trumped as having major reprecussions -- a MAJOR death and major new villian. Let's put it this way: a major death in the DCU with major reprecussions? I'm there. Of course we found out that the death wasn't major, and there were no reprecussions. But the point was to start a buzz and they did do that. As a murder mysery it was abysmal. As a superhero yarn it was horrid with some of the stupidest fights ever seen. But the buzz about such a "major" crossover event carried the book, nothing else. If DC released this without any of the hype, how much do you think it would sell? Probably wouldn't have broken the top 50.

[king mob]

Sounds like the old " less is more " arguement... A Nightmare On Elm St. or Psycho ? I prefer psychological titilation over saturation any day... :cool:


To an extent it is but if a writer feels they have to be graphic then its down to them to handle it well, this was clearly not what happened in an all ages comic book.

[Huh?]

IC sucked.

The mini was trumped as having major reprecussions -- a MAJOR death and major new villian. Let's put it this way: a major death in the DCU with major reprecussions? I'm there. Of course we found out that the death wasn't major, and there were no reprecussions. But the point was to start a buzz and they did do that. As a murder mysery it was abysmal. As a superhero yarn it was horrid with some of the stupidest fights ever seen. But the buzz about such a "major" crossover event carried the book, nothing else. If DC released this without any of the hype, how much do you think it would sell? Probably wouldn't have broken the top 50.But, the question is will we all learn our lesson? The answer: probably not. I wasn't going to buy IC at all, but after the first three issues it was getting pretty good reviews and word of mouth so I bought it. It wasn't until the end of the series that it's true craptastic nature became abundantly obvious. Does anyone have the willpower to not buy "Countdown" in March?

[The Shadow]

But, the question is will we all learn our lesson? The answer: probably not. I wasn't going to buy IC at all, but after the first three issues it was getting pretty good reviews and word of mouth so I bought it. It wasn't until the end of the series that it's true craptastic nature became abundantly obvious. Does anyone have the willpower to not buy "Countdown" in March?
Good point!

I will LOOK at Countdown... maybe lip through it on an issue by issue basis... which means they'll have hooked me... *sigh*

LOL @ "craptastic" That's freakin funny!

[Huh?]

Good point!

I will LOOK at Countdown... maybe lip through it on an issue by issue basis... which means they'll have hooked me... *sigh*

LOL @ "craptastic" That's freakin funny!Is countdown supposed to be more like IC in scope or more like War Games? IE is it going to interrupt regular monthlies or is it going to be a mini?

[HomerJay]

Let's put it this way: a major death in the DCU with major reprecussions? I'm there. Of course we found out that the death wasn't major, and there were no reprecussions.

I thought the death of Firestorm was a much more major event (only given 2 pages) than the wife of one of the minor heroes. Had Lois Lane been killed, now THAT would have been major.

[Huh?]

I thought the death of Firestorm was a much more major event (only given 2 pages) than the wife of one of the minor heroes. Had Lois Lane been killed, now THAT would have been major.But, wasn't he like the third or fourth Firestorm to die? I just figured they would replace him with another one like they always do.

[Dreadstar]

I'm sorry, I heven't read the rest of the replies yet, but I'm sorta confused that there's 3 positive choices in the poll, and only one negative choice (and then a joke choice).

Personally, I don't think "BAD" covers it. Not even remotely.

This was a big bag of canine diarrhea in a brown paper bag, set flaming at the door of the unsuspecting fan of the DC universe.

So yeah, I voted "bad." I only wish I could have voted "horrendously awful."

[Dreadstar]

What would you have had Ollie do different(he really seems to be the crux of your out of character opposition)?
Go rat out his friends? Turn himself in to the police? Help the rapist escape?
To not have been a party to it in the first place. Along with the other 6 or 7.

Basically, I'd prefer it never have happened. C'mon, it's all fine and dandy to want to bring real-world grim and gritty realism into the comics world, but that way lies madness. Batman especially is a Gordian knot, doomed to paradoxical non-existence when examined under such a microscope, simply for suffering the Joker to continue to breath.

[Phoney Bone]

But, the question is will we all learn our lesson? .... Does anyone have the willpower to not buy "Countdown" in March?

Nope. I don't.

It's an 80-page comic for one dollar.

ONE DOLLAR!

I don't care what they put in between the covers. It's kind of like digging through the quarter bins at a comic shop.

Comic collector #1: "Hey, I found a whole run of Wild Dog in the quarter box!"

Comic Collector #2: "Wild Dog sucked."

Comic collector #1: "Yeah...BUT THEY WERE A QUARTER EACH!"

Yep. I'm hooked.

[Huh?]

Nope. I don't.

It's an 80-page comic for one dollar.

ONE DOLLAR!

I don't care what they put in between the covers. It's kind of like digging through the quarter bins at a comic shop.

Comic collector #1: "Hey, I found a whole run of Wild Dog in the quarter box!"

Comic Collector #2: "Wild Dog sucked."

Comic collector #1: "Yeah...BUT THEY WERE A QUARTER EACH!"

Yep. I'm hooked.Isn't that just the first issue?

[Viking Bastard]

But, wasn't he like the third or fourth Firestorm to die? No, not really. He's had several incarnations, but it's always been the same
Ronnie Raymond or Professor Whatyacallhim core, I think. He's had several
different 'merges', though.

I assume Ronnie Raymond will probably merge with Jason, anyway.

So no big whoopie.

[glennsim]

No, not really. He's had several incarnations, but it's always been the same
Ronnie Raymond or Professor Whatyacallhim core, I think. He's had several
different 'merges', though.

I assume Ronnie Raymond will probably merge with Jason, anyway.

So no big whoopie.

If you're being picky, there are the following Firestorms:

Ron and Prof Stein
Ron and Russian guy
Ron and Russian guy and African guy (briefly)
Prof Stein alone (elemental)
Ron alone (Extreme Justice forward)
Jason (not breaking out into each merge)
You could count Pozhar if you wanted, since he would later merge with Ron.

[LiefieldFanboy]

Putting aside the revulsion I felt for having Sue raped, up until the final issue I thought the story was "interesting". After reading the final issue I felt like I was raped :( Man, for something that was hyped as DC universe changing it was the most lame premise and storyline ending ever. Man, I really felt gyped and I wasted my time reading the preceeding issues. Man DC is 0 for 2 right now with me. Both Hush and Identity Crisis started off strong and them both of them turned to crap at the end. At this point I don't have high hopes for whatever "DC universe changing" storyline they have in store for '05.

[king mob]

But, the question is will we all learn our lesson? The answer: probably not. I wasn't going to buy IC at all, but after the first three issues it was getting pretty good reviews and word of mouth so I bought it. It wasn't until the end of the series that it's true craptastic nature became abundantly obvious. Does anyone have the willpower to not buy "Countdown" in March?


No, mainly because i want to see if DC can somehow redeem the mess IC left behind it.

[Huh?]

No, mainly because i want to see if DC can somehow redeem the mess IC left behind it.Come on, you want to see how there going to screw up next. It's okay, we are all like that. ;)

[olympichero62]

Identity Crisis is nothing but Garbage. Garbage I say!!

[king mob]

Come on, you want to see how there going to screw up next. It's okay, we are all like that. ;)


Shhhhh, don't let them know that...

[bannermanonemillion]

All I'll say is that if you want a great JLA story that doesn't orbit around the Big Three with drama, action, and mystery check out "JLA: Year One" and "DC: New Frontier." Both are I think much better than IC.

[The Xenos]

I think DC missed out on this. They needed more Identity Crisis moichandising. "Moichandising?" you say.

Yes, moichandising! Moichandising, where the real money from the comic book is made. Identity Crisis the T-shirt, Identity Crisis the Breakfast Cereal,

Identity Crisis the Coloring Book,
http://img142.exs.cx/img142/9808/iccolorcopy6js.jpg

Identity Crisis the Lunch box,
http://img142.exs.cx/img142/2476/iclunchboxcopy9oy.jpg

Identity Crisis the Flame Thrower!! *whoosh*
http://img142.exs.cx/img142/7071/icflamethrowercopy9xw.jpg


Shame on DC. I thought they were always up for moichandising.

-Xenos, with apologies to Mel Brooks

[bannermanonemillion]

I think DC missed out on this. They needed more Identity Crisis moichandising. "Moichandising?" you say.

Yes, moichandising! Moichandising, where the real money from the comic book is made. Identity Crisis the T-shirt, Identity Crisis the Breakfast Cereal,

Identity Crisis the Coloring Book,
http://img142.exs.cx/img142/9808/iccolorcopy6js.jpg

Identity Crisis the Lunch box,
http://img142.exs.cx/img142/2476/iclunchboxcopy9oy.jpg

Identity Crisis the Flame Thrower!! *whoosh*
http://img142.exs.cx/img142/7071/icflamethrowercopy9xw.jpg


Shame on DC. I thought they were always up for moichandising.

-Xenos, with apologies to Mel Brooks

You managed to put a smile on my face while talking about IC. Kudos. :)

[Matt Algren]

I think DC missed out on this. They needed more Identity Crisis moichandising. "Moichandising?" you say.

Yes, moichandising! Moichandising, where the real money from the comic book is made. Identity Crisis the T-shirt, Identity Crisis the Breakfast Cereal,

Identity Crisis the Coloring Book,

Shame on DC. I thought they were always up for moichandising.

-Xenos, with apologies to Mel Brooks

Very funny.

(Pssst. Typo on the first one. FYI.)

[jade_nova]

I was wondering if Identity Crisis could be considered an end to 'Bronze' Age of comics. In issue seven there is a quote by Arthur Miller talking about how an era is over when preconviced notions are no longer valid or something like that. Wally West believed that his fellow heroes are somewhat infallible then he finds out they had brainwiped Batman. The Golden Age ended during the fifties with the creation of the comic code and the Silver Age could have ended with 'Crisis on Infinite Earths'. So where would this current Age end?

[Expletive Deleted]

IDENTITY CRISIS could conceivably alter the tone of the DCU if Meltzer and company run with their changes, but it's not exactly a paradigm shift for superhero comics in general.

I mean, if we're talking deconstruction and grim-'n-grittification, Miller and Moore got there first and did it better. You can't end an era that's already over.

[stealthwise]

I'm hoping that Identity Crisis would signify the end of the "grim and gritty", deconstructionist types of comics. Otherwise I'll just buy a bunch of older DC trades and back issues.

[The Xenos]

IC did anything but END the grim and gritty trend. If anything, it *(%$ing wallowed in it. I also agree with Expletive that Moore and Miller did all this back in the 80s and did it better. For me, IC was a Watchmen wannabe using and abusing the DCU. IC was a run on sentence with no point. It was an overhyped event that went nowhere. If this is where comics are heading, then consider me moving away from comics.

Ages are defined long after they're over anyway. This grim and gritty fad from the 80s is still haunting us with crap like IC. Now I freaking love grim and gritty comics. I love Dark Knight Returns, Watchmen, and Gaiman's Sandman. Yet not every character and comic has to do that route. Superman and most of the people in IC just seem so out of place with the horribe scenes of that mini serise. Yes, you can do darma and darkness with those characters, but you can also very easily over do it just to seem edgy. I think IC fell into that.

-Xenos

[Tom]

IC was a run on sentence with no point.
Oh, that's perfect.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

IC Is the end of an era for DC Heroes. Thier villains are now more personal In a way. Thier Villains or Rogues will test them In ways that will effect the heroes.

If anything IC moved laughable villains and made them serious & angry. I personally can't wait to see Green Arrow vs Merwyn now.

[Evan Waters]

IC Is the end of an era for DC Heroes. Thier villains are now more personal In a way. Thier Villains or Rogues will test them In ways that will effect the heroes.

They've done this before. Going after the spouse/girlfriend/relative is one of the oldest cliches in supervillainy (and one that makes little sense to me- all that it does is piss the hero off, ensuring that he'll go after the villain in a righteous rage and beat the crap out of him.)