Are we all really closer than ever?

[meethraa]

I'm doing research for a work on blogs, and as I was writing down some notes today I couldn't get past this sentence: "Contrary to what science fiction had suggested throughout the last century, inter-personal barriers have been winding down in this contemporary global society."

My point is that we're more likely these days to see people anywhere in the world openly sharing their thoughts with just about everyone else, and a lot of those are people who might not do so ten or twenty years ago. Also, anyone these days knows that they can talk about any subject since there's bound to be a on-line community devoted (almost) exclusively to that, whereas a few years ago if no one in your close circle of friends was into furry-loving, for example, you were screwed (not literally, though).

So, on one hand I can agree with that idea. Still, something in the back of my head kept telling me it was a flawed premise.

If one of the main reasons we're so open to spill our guts to others on an open forum is the anonymity aspect of the internet, isn't that a barrier in itself?
And maybe my parents' generation is right and we actually reached the peak of human relations on the flower power days, and kids these days are just so self-centered that the blog phenomenon should be seen as a exercise of exhibitionism instead of human relations.

So what do you think, are we really talking, or just flashing each other?

[Sanagi]

It may be a local phenomenon, but in my experience young people are quieter and more private in their daily lives. For instance, I've noticed, and some of my college teachers have commented on this, that the classes I'm in are very quiet and it's hard to get anyone to say anything. Compared to other adults I'm a quiet person but I'm practically teacher's pet compared to how often my classmates(most of whom are a few years younger than me) respond to questions and speak up during class.

[meethraa]

It may be a local phenomenon, but in my experience young people are quieter and more private in their daily lives. For instance, I've noticed, and some of my college teachers have commented on this, that the classes I'm in are very quiet and it's hard to get anyone to say anything. Compared to other adults I'm a quiet person but I'm practically teacher's pet compared to how often my classmates(most of whom are a few years younger than me) respond to questions and speak up during class.
But do you think those same young people are just as private on-line?

Are you?

I guess another question is how much emphasis will historians in the future give to the blog phenomenon. Will they see it mostly like this (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showpost.php?p=1394463&postcount=1) , or will it be considered a major revolution in the way we communicate?

[Joe Grendel]

Blogs will be forgotten as a trend within two years.

I was "blogging" in the mid-1990s at my GeoCities site, getting hundreds, sometimes thousands of hits a day. It has totally failed to revolutionize my life or anyone else's. It's trendy to talk about it today, because it finally became easy enough for people who felt GeoCities was too complicated to do, but most people know, in their hearts, that no one really gives a crap about their kitten or why they want "Farscape" to come back or their picks for who's going to win "American Idol." And, over time, people who are just posting for sheer vanity tend to give up on it, except for the super-vain, and they provide blessed comic relief for the rest of us.

Once blogs join hula hoops and Rubik's cubes on the discarded fad pile, the people who actually have a USE for blogs -- families communicating long-distance in a one-to-many format, small businesses announcing new products and services, genuine celebrities managing their own control of PR to the diehard fans -- will continue using them as they have for years now.

The Internet is revolutionary. Blogs are a blip.

[meethraa]

Blogs will be forgotten as a trend within two years.

I was "blogging" in the mid-1990s at my GeoCities site, getting hundreds, sometimes thousands of hits a day. It has totally failed to revolutionize my life or anyone else's. It's trendy to talk about it today, because it finally became easy enough for people who felt GeoCities was too complicated to do, but most people know, in their hearts, that no one really gives a crap about their kitten or why they want "Farscape" to come back or their picks for who's going to win "American Idol." And, over time, people who are just posting for sheer vanity tend to give up on it, except for the super-vain, and they provide blessed comic relief for the rest of us.

Once blogs join hula hoops and Rubik's cubes on the discarded fad pile, the people who actually have a USE for blogs -- families communicating long-distance in a one-to-many format, small businesses announcing new products and services, genuine celebrities managing their own control of PR to the diehard fans -- will continue using them as they have for years now.

The Internet is revolutionary. Blogs are a blip.

That's pretty much how I saw the whole blogosphere phenomenon, but more recently it seems that more and more people are actually giving some serious use to it, like for example a politician over here who started a blog to widely divulge and discuss the "NO" option on the European Constitution referendum. And one of the most interesting things about that is that there's a genuine sense of democratic equality when it comes to that kind of debate. Granted, maybe the use of a blog is just following a trend, and the really revolution as you said is the Net itself, but there's something much more immediate and direct about a blog, not just in creating one, but also in commenting on it.

[K'Nort]

There was a study released recently on the influence/impact of bloggers on the media and on public perceptions of current events. Apologies if it has already had a thread:

Experimental research from the Pew Internet & American Life Project and BuzzMetrics suggests that political bloggers can make an impact on politics, but they often follow the lead of politicians and journalists.

A report released today, entitled “Buzz, Blogs and Beyond: The Internet and the National Discourse in the Fall of 2004,” employed new word-of-mouth tracking and cross-media correspondence techniques to examine the impact of online buzz on the national agenda during the last two months of the 2004 presidential election.

PIP and BuzzMetrics examined the interplay of blogs, online citizen chatter in newsgroups, the mainstream news media and official political spin from the Democrat and Republican election camps. They also conducted a case study of the “Rathergate” scandal involving CBS News and unauthenticated memos about George W. Bush’s record in the National Guard.

http://www.pewinternet.org/ppt/BUZZ_BLOGS__BEYOND_Final05-16-05.pdf

On a more social level, I do know that I have several very anti-social friends/relations who end up interacting with a lot of people online, and sometimes even meeting them in real life. And they wouldn't have made as many friends if left to real life-only. So it's most likely a positive for them. And people I know who are social but also talk to people on-line have continued to be just as social in real life as before.

But blogs are having a different sort of impact on the high school level, probably. There are certainly regular local news stories about how it's a heck of a rumour mill. And people's feelings can be very hurt. The anonymity helps that.

I'm in grad school and haven't noticed that people participate less in class discussions than when I was an undergrad pre-web. In fact, no one shuts up. But at 34, I'm one of the younger students, so it's too late for technology to influence us much.

[Spider69]

I personely...have devloped freindships and have learned to respect and hate people on this site.....i have talk about some pretty nerdy stuff...to really serious stuff, and help some people threw some bad times....as when they help me threw mine........
in other words....some people might be flashing....but as far as i'am concern.....i'am not.

[west3man]

So what do you think, are we really talking, or just flashing each other?
True to form, I suppose, I believe the answer is both.

There's a lot of flashing out there, just like in our offline lives. There will always be people who just want attention or just want to show off their "shticks."

There are also a lot of people out there whose online passion is derived from the reality and substance of the relationships they've formed online. They sometimes take things too seriously or care too much, as a consequence, but that's just another example of the depth to which we can observe or expose each others personalities online.

Which is there more of? Probably more flash, but often it takes the flash to help build the substance of the thing.


Btw, meeth, great topic.

[Spider69]

True to form, I suppose, I believe the answer is both.

There's a lot of flashing out there, just like in our offline lives. There will always be people who just want attention or just want to show off their "shticks."

There are also a lot of people out there whose online passion is derived from the reality and substance of the relationships they've formed online. They sometimes take things too seriously or care too much, as a consequence, but that's just another example of the depth to which we can observe or expose each others personalities online.

Which is there more of? Probably more flash, but often it takes the flash to help build the substance of the thing.


Btw, meeth, great topic.

My setiments....... exactly!

[bfrank]

This may be a bit of topic, but I find that the idea of personal space seems to be loosing acceptance...I can not tell you how many times over the last few months I've had to tell someone to back up...in line at the store, the movies, Macy's, some one is always in my space...makes for an even grumpier rob...that ain't a good thing...

[west3man]

This may be a bit of topic, but I find that the idea of personal space seems to be loosing acceptance...I can not tell you how many times over the last few months I've had to tell someone to back up...in line at the store, the movies, Macy's, some one is always in my space...makes for an even grumpier rob...that ain't a good thing...
lol

I only know one or two people who are "close talkers," as Seinfeld referred to them. The one guy who comes to-mind is from another country, I think. I'm not sure which. He frequently gets all in my grill when he wants to talk to me. It makes me less uncomfortable than it used to, but I'd still prefer that he back the hell up*. I've tried to communicate this with my body-language, but I think it's a cultural thing that's not going away. As long as I can remain comfortable, I won't call him out explicitly. I don't want to hurt his feelings, but sometimes one just has to be direct.





* - The fact that I'm kinda self-conscious about the potential for dragon-breath FROM ME makes me particularly uncomfy with close-talkers. I'm sure I give people the impression that I'm more shy than I actually am because I tend to look or turn to the side a bit when I speak to them.

[bfrank]

lol

I only know one or two people who are "close talkers," as Seinfeld referred to them. The one guy who comes to-mind is from another country, I think. I'm not sure which. He frequently gets all in my grill when he wants to talk to me. It makes me less uncomfortable than it used to, but I'd still prefer that he back the hell up*. I've tried to communicate this with my body-language, but I think it's a cultural thing that's not going away. As long as I can remain comfortable, I won't call him out explicitly. I don't want to hurt his feelings, but sometimes one just has to be direct.





* - The fact that I'm kinda self-conscious about the potential for dragon-breath FROM ME makes me particularly uncomfy with close-talkers. I'm sure I give people the impression that I'm more shy than I actually am because I tend to look or turn to the side a bit when I speak to them.

I will note, and I hope that no one takes this the wrong way, but it usually asian woman who are doing this....Now the young hot ones, I don't mind...but them old ladies...back up, back up, back up...and I find that one has to speak up, in that if I was doing something that made them uncomfortable, I would hear (have heard) about it....

[Ghost]

I'm doing research for a work on blogs, and as I was writing down some notes today I couldn't get past this sentence: "Contrary to what science fiction had suggested throughout the last century, inter-personal barriers have been winding down in this contemporary global society."

My point is that we're more likely these days to see people anywhere in the world openly sharing their thoughts with just about everyone else, and a lot of those are people who might not do so ten or twenty years ago. Also, anyone these days knows that they can talk about any subject since there's bound to be a on-line community devoted (almost) exclusively to that, whereas a few years ago if no one in your close circle of friends was into furry-loving, for example, you were screwed (not literally, though).

So, on one hand I can agree with that idea. Still, something in the back of my head kept telling me it was a flawed premise.

If one of the main reasons we're so open to spill our guts to others on an open forum is the anonymity aspect of the internet, isn't that a barrier in itself?
And maybe my parents' generation is right and we actually reached the peak of human relations on the flower power days, and kids these days are just so self-centered that the blog phenomenon should be seen as a exercise of exhibitionism instead of human relations.

So what do you think, are we really talking, or just flashing each other?

I can't speak for blogs, since I neither read nor write them, but I think the internet is a wonderful tool for communicating information, which I believe is something we are doing more then ever before. When push comes to shove, we still require human contact and always will. Online communication is more of an addition.

Seriously, how can online anonymity be a barrier when it's the very thing that allows us to communicate so freely? In my personal life I talk with the friends I have nearby, and online I discuss things with the likes of you people. Without the net, I would only have my RL friends and the world would have been a much, much smaller place. Now that's a barrier!

(I might add that there was a time when I had nearly no friends at all. During that stage of my life, this place provided alot of comfort.)

So no, I don't think we're just flashing each other. There's a whole lot of great exchange going on and, amazingly, you keep getting back more then you give. You are able to reach and touch the hearts of people on the other side of the planet, and all the dreams and ideas and amazing stuff humanity is capable of imagining is finally available to a single individual. And that's a very powerful thing.

[meethraa]

There was a study released recently on the influence/impact of bloggers on the media and on public perceptions of current events. Apologies if it has already had a thread:

http://www.pewinternet.org/ppt/BUZZ_BLOGS__BEYOND_Final05-16-05.pdf

That makes sense when I think about it and I was going to say "unfortunately", but I'm not so sure it's necessarily a bad thing.
My first reaction is to say that yes, that's how most people seem to function on the real world, repeating sound bites instead of forming their own opinion, so there's no reason why bloggers would act differently... BUT, at the same time, if you're going to start a blog and update it regularly, eventually there will be some of you in it, I think. Maybe I'm being too optimistic but, barring some exceptions, a blogger will work his own perspective into the blog even if following a general direction dictated by someone else.
And that has to better than complete apathy, no?

On a more social level, I do know that I have several very anti-social friends/relations who end up interacting with a lot of people online, and sometimes even meeting them in real life. And they wouldn't have made as many friends if left to real life-only. So it's most likely a positive for them. And people I know who are social but also talk to people on-line have continued to be just as social in real life as before.
I agree. And I clearly remember hearing the exact opposite from "experts" when it became obvious that the internet was completely conventionalized around here.
But blogs are having a different sort of impact on the high school level, probably. There are certainly regular local news stories about how it's a heck of a rumour mill. And people's feelings can be very hurt. The anonymity helps that.
That's VERY interesting, and the first time I hear anything about it. Are we talking about private blogs that people get somehow pointed to, or a "bulletin board" kind of thing where anyone can post? Either way it's something I had never thought about, and once again it makes complete sense.
I'm in grad school and haven't noticed that people participate less in class discussions than when I was an undergrad pre-web. In fact, no one shuts up. But at 34, I'm one of the younger students, so it's too late for technology to influence us much.
I don't see it isolating younger kids in class either. It was the same thing with mobile phones, with the media creating this image of kids between classes isolating themselves and taking on the phone instead of relating to each other, but somehow they seem to forget that those are tools primarily used to communicate. Which is not to say that it doesn't happen at all, but I don't believe it's the epidemic that some feared.

[meethraa]

I personely...have devloped freindships and have learned to respect and hate people on this site.....i have talk about some pretty nerdy stuff...to really serious stuff, and help some people threw some bad times....as when they help me threw mine........
in other words....some people might be flashing....but as far as i'am concern.....i'am not.
Your "brother-lover" episode is a good example of what I was just saying. Sure some might be disgusted, or sceptic, or just simply amused, but it's still a very personal and individual point of view that would never travel the whole world in the pre-web days.
Which begs the question, why didn't you put that story in a blog? :D

[meethraa]

Double post.

[meethraa]

True to form, I suppose, I believe the answer is both.

There's a lot of flashing out there, just like in our offline lives. There will always be people who just want attention or just want to show off their "shticks."

There are also a lot of people out there whose online passion is derived from the reality and substance of the relationships they've formed online. They sometimes take things too seriously or care too much, as a consequence, but that's just another example of the depth to which we can observe or expose each others personalities online.
True, true. I'm not sure if there's even a point in trying to distinguish between blogs and other types of online communication in this regard, but I wonder if this kind of closer proximity between people to a point where they can actually hurt each other's feelings is something that can normally happen in the context of a blog, without something else like a forum or a chat room providing some "history"...
It's not that I don't see people taking things too seriously in blogs about movies or music (or politics, obviously) and getting into heated arguments, but an actually sense of relationship within a blog (or group of blogs)... is that common?
Which is there more of? Probably more flash, but often it takes the flash to help build the substance of the thing.
Yes! That's exactly what I meant before. More quantity will inevitably over time mean more quality.
Not that exhibitionism and quality have to be mutually exclusive...
Btw, meeth, great topic.
Eh, thanks. Since I only start one or two threads a year I guess it's best to make them count.

[meethraa]

This may be a bit of topic, but I find that the idea of personal space seems to be loosing acceptance...I can not tell you how many times over the last few months I've had to tell someone to back up...in line at the store, the movies, Macy's, some one is always in my space...makes for an even grumpier rob...that ain't a good thing...
You think it might somehow be on topic? I can't see it affecting my generation or the previous ones, but it wouldn't surprise me that much if people growing up with the internet would start loosing that sense of personal time and space, seeing as everything is so immediate and so connected online. Plus, with mobile phones there's that possibility of reaching anyone at anytime, and from there to the actual physical space starting to shrink is just a small step.

[meethraa]

Seriously, how can online anonymity be a barrier when it's the very thing that allows us to communicate so freely? In my personal life I talk with the friends I have nearby, and online I discuss things with the likes of you people. Without the net, I would only have my RL friends and the world would have been a much, much smaller place. Now that's a barrier!
I'm more inclined to agree than not, but couldn't an argument be made that the anonymity takes the "personal" out of inter-personal relations? Or do you think that what really matters is what's being transmitted, and one's identity is not very relevant in that exchange? And if so, do you think that could work offline?
So no, I don't think we're just flashing each other. There's a whole lot of great exchange going on and, amazingly, you keep getting back more then you give. You are able to reach and touch the hearts of people on the other side of the planet, and all the dreams and ideas and amazing stuff humanity is capable of imagining is finally available to a single individual. And that's a very powerful thing.
Is this the norm, though? I used to think so, but now I'm not so sure.
I'm wondering if it's possible that the internet is starting to mimic offline live so closely that this sense of sharing is being replaced by a more mundane cycle of every day's highs and lows and you end up getting just what you give when you encounter others willing to give it as well...

[Spider69]

Your "brother-lover" episode is a good example of what I was just saying. Sure some might be disgusted, or sceptic, or just simply amused, but it's still a very personal and individual point of view that would never travel the whole world in the pre-web days.
Which begs the question, why didn't you put that story in a blog? :D
Last time i checked, those were my feelings....not a story.

[meethraa]

Last time i checked, those were my feelings....not a story.
But your feelings are not in the post, they're in you. Fact or fiction, once you tell it or write it down it becomes a story.

[K'Nort]

Here's a pretty thorough NYT article on high school blogs. Not the bullying kind though. Still trying to dig one up. But this is about kids who have live journals and share things they're not willing to tell their friends in person and such. It's interesting. Hopefully the link works.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/11/magazine/11BLOG.html?pagewanted=1&ei=5007&en=f832eb26156e750a&ex=1389157200&partner=USERLAND

[K'Nort]

Okay, here's one. It's been an issue for a few years.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/1230/p11s01-legn.html?entryBottomStory

For one middle-school girl it was a rumor, circulated via text messaging, that she had contracted SARS while on a trip to Toronto. She returned to school and found nobody would come near her.

For an overweight boy in Japan, it was cellphone pictures, taken of him on the sly while he was changing in the locker room and then sent to many of his peers.

And for Calabasas High School in California, it was a website - schoolscandals.com - on which vicious gossip and racist and threatening remarks grew so rampant that most of the school was affected.

The actions themselves - rumors, threats, gossip, humiliation - are nothing new. But among today's adolescents - a generation of instant messengers, always connected, always wired - bullies are starting to move beyond slam books and whisper campaigns to e-mail, websites, chat rooms, and text messaging.

While in some ways it's no worse than old-fashioned bullying, cyberbullying has a few idiosyncrasies. Websites and screen names give bullies a mask of anonymity if they wish it, making them difficult to trace.

The pressure for kids to be always online means bullies can extend their harassment into their victims' homes.

And the miracle of the Web means that sharing an embarrassing photo or private note - with thousands of people - requires little more than the click of a key.

The most common instances often involve instant messaging, or IM - the instantaneous chats that have spawned a lingo of their own and are a constant presence on most kids' computers. Bullies can send a mean or threatening IM with no identification beyond a selected screen-name. If that name gets blocked, they choose another.

More recently, it's cellphones. For several years now, bullying via text messaging and cellphone photos has been a concern in countries such as Britain and Japan, where such technologies are common. Stutzky says he's just beginning to see it in the US. He heard from a high-school boy who got text messages questioning his sexual orientation, and from a middle-school girl who got messages like: "Where did your mom get you those shoes? K-Mart?"

Other times, it's a website. Some circulate rumors, ask students to vote on the ugliest or fattest kid in school, or focus on one individual. When Will, a middle-schooler in Kansas, broke up with his girlfriend, she created a website devoted to smearing him.