Why Jedi are overrated

[Aries_04]

Those guys are nothing without the sabre sword....hth they are terrible. They can amp their acrobatics and speed plus use a few force tricks and such but thats it. I bet Mandarin without his rings.....just his force field and chi pumping could take Kenobi, Dooku, Vader, and Palpatine by himself.


Kenobi, Dooku, Vader, Palpatine can force amp and hurl objects

vs.

Mandarin without rings....only forcefield and chi pumping

Mandy wins 9 outta 10

[UncleBob]

You should watch Clone Wars and check out Windu in that...

Yeah, there's a reason Samuel L. Jackson is the only man bad enough to play him.

[Aries_04]

I'm almost convinced that Windu and Yoda are better than all of them. That's the only reason I didn't include them cause that might be too much for Mandarin. He could take the rest though.

[UncleBob]

Palpatine was hurling those very large senate chair things... so I'll give it to team jedi :D

[Aries_04]

true.....but I say through chi pumping Mandarin could dodge em just as easily...probably more easily than Yoda.

[UncleBob]

true.....but I say through chi pumping Mandarin could dodge em just as easily...probably more easily than Yoda.

He's tough, but I say all 4 working together, combined with the force lightning and force choking and things, they'd take him.

Now with 1 ring, it would be over.

With all the rings... well... the Jedi would be wiped out within seconds.

[SuperSaiyaMan12]

true.....but I say through chi pumping Mandarin could dodge em just as easily...probably more easily than Yoda.
You don't know much about Jedi/Sith don't you? Like the powers of the Light Side and Dark Side of the Force? Palpantine wins this on his own with Force Lightning.

[Hiromi]

So...the main theme of this is Jedi are nothing but fast and aerobatic with a couple of force tricks without their light sabers? Erm, so what? Kenshin Himura ain't exactly that much without a sword as far as I recall. The Lightsaber is their main, and sometimes only tool, so yeah I think they're gonna rely on it a good deal.

And that's not counting the ones that can throw big heavy things with TK, choke the life out of someone with a gesture, or fry em with Lightning...

[Cyke]

Obi-Wan didn't do so badly against Jango Fett in hand to hand, considering that Jango was in a full suit of armor and was already one of the premier assassins in the galaxy.

[Draconomicon]

Knights of the Old Republic
NUFF SAID

[The MunchKING]

Kyle Katrin

[MKTerra]

Kyle Katarn ;)

[The MunchKING]

Kyle Katarn ;)


To-may-to

To mah-to

[LibrarianThorne]

Someone hasn't paid attention to the expanded universe, has he? You know, where powerful Jedi can huck moons and snuff out suns (though the sun-snuffing was a Sith, granted), and Emperor Palpatine can shatter a capital ship with the Force.

[Smokey]

people are just ignorant and think since they only see one power in the movie (ignoring the fact that canon..ill repeat canon sources have confirmed much much more force powers etc.)

[Eagle299]

Someone hasn't paid attention to the expanded universe, has he? You know, where powerful Jedi can huck moons and snuff out suns (though the sun-snuffing was a Sith, granted), and Emperor Palpatine can shatter a capital ship with the Force.

No, Palpatine cannot destroy Stardestroyers. The standard for other sources being canon is If they do not contradict the movies. As movie Palpatine cannot destroy ships, as evidensed by him needing the Death Star to take out the Rebel, there is a contradiction, so the feat is disgarded.

[Smokey]

No, Palpatine cannot destroy Stardestroyers. The standard for other sources being canon is If they do not contradict the movies. As movie Palpatine cannot destroy ships, as evidensed by him needing the Death Star to take out the Rebel, there is a contradiction, so the feat is disgarded.

we dont know if it was NEEDED, palpy cant destroy planets but we dont know anything about his ship busting skills

[Jared]

Someone hasn't paid attention to the expanded universe, has he? You know, where powerful Jedi can huck moons and snuff out suns (though the sun-snuffing was a Sith, granted), and Emperor Palpatine can shatter a capital ship with the Force.

Palpatine only did that when his spirit was in a young clone body, didn't he?

The fight with Yoda is probably the biggest display of Force power in the movies, and it didn't even destroy the Senate chamber. I have a hard time buying one of those same characters could rip a warship apart.

[LibrarianThorne]

No, Palpatine cannot destroy Stardestroyers. The standard for other sources being canon is If they do not contradict the movies. As movie Palpatine cannot destroy ships, as evidensed by him needing the Death Star to take out the Rebel, there is a contradiction, so the feat is disgarded.

It doesn't contradict anything, the Death Star was never built for effectiveness, it was built as a terror weapon. Who would join the Rebellion if they knew that at any point in time the Empire could annihilate them with a single ship?

Remember, Clone Wars Volume 1 and 2 are canon, confirmed by George Lucas. In those series, Yoda singlehandedly stops a droid landing force and Mace Windu nigh-singlehandedly destroys a droid army. Palpatine is, without spoiling anything, at least on their level.

Though true, it may have been because Palpatine was in a younger, more fit body that we able to conjure up the Force Storm, but this is also a being who was able to influence thousands of people simultaneously and keep his presence hidden from the Jedi Council while sitting no more than 10 feet from them. That was in an old, broken body, so I can understand if he couldn't shatter a star destroyer, but with his mental powers he's more than formidable enough.

[Artemis1]

Team Jedi 7/10.

[Infinity Chameleon]

Kenshin Himura ain't exactly that much without a sword as far as I recall.

The presence or absence of a sword wouldn't impact Kenshin's supersonic -- yes, *literally* supersonic -- close-quarters-combat reflex speed and short distance running speed. It also wouldn't impact his multiton superstrength.

Kenshin could still kill a whole lot of normals unarmed.

[CrossoverManiac]

Someone hasn't paid attention to the expanded universe, has he? You know, where powerful Jedi can huck moons and snuff out suns (though the sun-snuffing was a Sith, granted), and Emperor Palpatine can shatter a capital ship with the Force.

Which is why the novels and comic books aren't considered canon in the CBR board.

[Metaphysician]

Um, having the Emperor personally atomize your planet of residence would be *more* terrifying than him having a battlestation that zaps planets.

That said, even movie Jedi aren't exactly sucky, from a live-action sci-fi perspective, as opposed to a comic book one. Moderately enhanced physical abilities, low-mid psionic abilities, a really killer sword, and in-story justified extraordinary luck is nothing to sneeze at.

[The MunchKING]

Um, having the Emperor personally atomize your planet of residence would be *more* terrifying than him having a battlestation that zaps planets. I dunno, you can't SEE the Emporer coming.

A small Moon Parks itself outside your planet, EVERYONE on the Planet starts pissing themselves and then being good little Imperial Subjects....

[Genma:TheDestroyer]

Which is why the novels and comic books aren't considered canon in the CBR board.

Actually, they are unless they directly contradict something from the movies.

[CrossoverManiac]

Actually, they are unless they contradict something from the movies.

Try citing Dark Empire as evidence of Palpatine's abilities in a Palpatine vs. fights and see what happens. I can promise you the majority of the board will not accept it as canon and will allow for material from the movies.

[Genma:TheDestroyer]

Try citing Dark Empire as evidence of Palpatine's abilities in a Palpatine vs. fights and see what happens. I can promise you the majority of the board will not accept it as canon and will allow for material from the movies.

Not the best example, considering it does basically what I just mentioned.


It makes Palpatine out to be in the cosmic range, where there was never even a hint of that in the movies.

[Jared]

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=59059&highli

We were just talking about SW canon in this thread.

Dark Empire's Palpatine, as noted, is a young-bodied clone who comes around years after Endor, inhabited by his spirit. And IIRC, some other EU story with Mara Jade hinted he may even have been an impostor. For all intents and purposes, he's not the same Palpatine we see in the movies.

[Lord Foul]

It should be noted that the force storm was acting basicaly like a summoned attack. While when a person is cut off from the force he loses his powers, the force storm was still around and killed him.

Most of the other bigger end feats also deal with Jedi/Sith artifacts. The moon one is a new one to me though. The supernova was caused by the personal flagship of Naga Shadow, basicaly a force powered superweapon.

Though you do have some nasty feats like crushing an AT-AT's head. There more like thier clone wars verisons than DBZ characters....

[Lord Foul]

It should be noted that the force storm was acting basicaly like a summoned attack. While when a person is cut off from the force he loses his powers, the force storm was still around and killed him.

Most of the other bigger end feats also deal with Jedi/Sith artifacts. The moon one is a new one to me though. The supernova was caused by the personal flagship of Naga Shadow, basicaly a force powered superweapon.

Though you do have some nasty feats like crushing an AT-AT's head. There more like thier clone wars verisons than DBZ characters....

[Genma:TheDestroyer]

It should be noted that the force storm was acting basicaly like a summoned attack. While when a person is cut off from the force he loses his powers, the force storm was still around and killed him.

Most of the other bigger end feats also deal with Jedi/Sith artifacts. The moon one is a new one to me though. The supernova was caused by the personal flagship of Naga Shadow, basicaly a force powered superweapon.

Though you do have some nasty feats like crushing an AT-AT's head. There more like thier clone wars verisons than DBZ characters....


Nihilus didn't need artifacts to pull off his stunts (like turning whole planets into lifeless husks, and mind-controlling an entire fleet), though operating at that level of power had basically made him a slave to his own hunger.

[CDTM]

That Sith clone from Zahn's trilogy was hella powerful.. Joruus something or other. He was reconstructing minds and controlling entire armies at light years apart from the comfort of his Star Destroyer.

[Metaphysician]

Nihilus didn't need artifacts to pull off his stunts (like turning whole planets into lifeless husks, and mind-controlling an entire fleet), though operating at that level of power had basically made him a slave to his own hunger.

To be fair, Darth Nihilus isn't a fair example of a force user, as he didn't get that way just by mastering the force ( AFAIK ).

[Nega Knight]

That Sith clone from Zahn's trilogy was hella powerful.. Joruus something or other. He was reconstructing minds and controlling entire armies at light years apart from the comfort of his Star Destroyer.

Joruus C'Baoth. He wasn't really a Sith, just really really insane. He really didn't strike me as beyond Palpatine level, really. It was suggested that the reason he could control the clone-armies so easily was because they were all modeled on just a handful of minds. Whenever he used his powers on an army of non-clones, he was straining himself to the point of exhaustion.

[CDTM]

Joruus C'Baoth. He wasn't really a Sith, just really really insane. He really didn't strike me as beyond Palpatine level, really. It was suggested that the reason he could control the clone-armies so easily was because they were all modeled on just a handful of minds. Whenever he used his powers on an army of non-clones, he was straining himself to the point of exhaustion.

True, but he was getting better at it the more he practiced. He did take direct control of Thrawns personal ship, though you'd think he'd have had a wall of Ysalmari considering how he plans ahead...

In terms of range in the movies, Vader and Luke were able to project some light years distance.

[CDTM]

But yeah, Joruus actually works to drive home just how big EU Palp really was, as he was said to constantly consolidate and drive his entire Empires forces. And when he passed on, that's when things were said to really fall apart...

[Genma:TheDestroyer]

To be fair, Darth Nihilus isn't a fair example of a force user, as he didn't get that way just by mastering the force ( AFAIK ).

Even before becoming a wound in the Force, he was one of Darth Traya's pupils, and an extremely talented Sith.


After witnessing what happened on Malachor, he and his followers developed techniques to specifically take advantage of this strange new ability. Even the Sith Assassins supposedly had more control over that than The Exile. He was simply more powerful than them, and thus was able to defeat them anyway.


Nihilus, on the other hand, took it to a whole new level, and was the pinnacle of what could be achieved using it. Making himself a 'wound in the Force' in the process.

So since what he became (and what he could do) were the result of Sith techniques and teachings, I'd say he should count. Kreia even states that others could end up just like him if they use the same methods.

[Smokey]

Even before becoming a wound in the Force, he was one of Darth Traya's pupils, and an extremely talented Sith.


After witnessing what happened on Malachor, he and his followers developed techniques to specifically take advantage of this strange new ability. Even the Sith Assassins supposedly had more control over that than The Exile. He was simply more powerful than them, and thus was able to defeat them anyway.


Nihilus, on the other hand, took it to a whole new level, and was the pinnacle of what could be achieved using it. Making himself a 'wound in the Force' in the process.

So since what he became (and what he could do) were the result of Sith techniques and teachings, I'd say he should count. Kreia even states that others could end up just like him if they use the same methods.


its unfair to call it a sith technique, actually its better just to leave it as a cosmic accident, since no jedi had even ever heard of such a thing, it was an accident the exile discovered it, and nihilus took advantage, he might of crafted it, but he didnt create it and without it he would of been casually swiped away by the exile

also the exile wasn't just more powerful, he became that way by absorbing and gaining power of the people he defeated and his allies

[Dhusk]

Someone hasn't paid attention to the expanded universe, has he? You know, where powerful Jedi can huck moons and snuff out suns (though the sun-snuffing was a Sith, granted), and Emperor Palpatine can shatter a capital ship with the Force.

And people wonder why non SW fans don't take EU canon seriously. :rolleyes:

Remember when Star Wars was kinda science fiction-y, with believable tech and a Jedi's skill and courage mattered more than his chi--er, force powers? When it wasn't in a verisimilitude-killing death spiral of ever increasing power levels, ludicrous tech, and shallow characterization? I mean really, what's gonna happen in episode 7, if it ever gets made? The emperor is gonna get all muscle-y, grow long blond hair, and transform into Super Sith Level 2?

I used to really like Star Wars, but the franchise has become a sad parody of itself.

[Genma:TheDestroyer]

its unfair to call it a sith technique, actually its better just to leave it as a cosmic accident, since no jedi had even ever heard of such a thing, it was an accident the exile discovered it, and nihilus took advantage, he might of crafted it, but he didnt create it and without it he would of been casually swiped away by the exile

Nihilus didn't create the ability, but he and his followers *were* the ones who learned how to harness it properly, and developed techniques and styles based on it.

Essentially, the stuff they created would have made it possible for any Force-user to potentially become a wound in the Force, or leave dead areas of space behind. Kreia outright states this, and says it's a very good reason why he and all of his subjects should be destroyed.

[Gorthaur]

And people wonder why non SW fans don't take EU canon seriously. :rolleyes:

Remember when Star Wars was kinda science fiction-y, with believable tech and a Jedi's skill and courage mattered more than his chi--er, force powers? When it wasn't in a verisimilitude-killing death spiral of ever increasing power levels, ludicrous tech, and shallow characterization?Come now, Star Wars was always more of a fantasy movie set in space than science fiction, with shallow characters and ludicrous tech, from the start. It was just a well executed space fantasy made by someone with enough vision and creativity to compensate for his lack of writing ability.

Not that I disagree about the EU power levels, mind you.

[Genma:TheDestroyer]

Remember when Star Wars was kinda science fiction-y, with believable tech and a Jedi's skill and courage mattered more than his chi--er, force powers? When it wasn't in a verisimilitude-killing death spiral of ever increasing power levels, ludicrous tech, and shallow characterization? .

Oh please, even the minor characters in the EU get more characterization than some of the major movie folks.



Let's compare Dooku's development to...oh...Bastila's. Maul's to Calo Nord's. Han Solo to Canderous Ordo.

We certainly knew a heck of a lot more of Exar Kun's past, motivations, and conflict than we did the Emperor or Vader in the first three movies.



Superior tech? What do you expect? The non-Force using folks back in the Old Republic had to co-exist with *thousands*, even tens of thousands of Jedi and Sith. It's only logical they'd develop swords with cortosis weaves to survive combat with a lightsaber, implants to improve physical ability or provide regeneration, equipment that allowed them to handle a blaster better, or force-fields that allowed them to absorb all types of attacks. In a galaxy where dangerous crap happened, you had to be ready.


And with the power came great draw-backs. Nihilus, arguably one of the strongest ever, became a slave to his hunger, and would literally die if he didn't continue to absorb the Force from beings who could use it. His mind was almost completely erased, replaced with nothing more than instinct and an ever increasing appetite.


You speak about stories (in novel, comic or game form) that you haven't even bothered reading before bashing.

[CDTM]

Come now, Star Wars was always more of a fantasy movie set in space than science fiction, with shallow characters and ludicrous tech, from the start. It was just a well executed space fantasy made by someone with enough vision and creativity to compensate for his lack of writing ability.

Not that I disagree about the EU power levels, mind you.

I pretty much stopped with Zahns trilogy, the Jedi Acadomy stuff, Truce at Bakura, and the Courtship of Princess Leia, so was more or less spared the ever rising power level problem.

Although, I might note that the prequels certainly had greater displays of power then the original trilogy, what with the mega leaping of Anakin in ep 2, the bigger, badder force lightning, blocking force lighting and the force levitation tricks of Yoda, Dooku, and Palpatine. Nothing huge, but definately a step up.

...and what's with these anti DBZ fanboys...

[Phrozen]

Regardless of what the jedi can do, they are still fighting someone who can take apart Iron Man armors with his bare hands.

[Eagle299]

It doesn't contradict anything, the Death Star was never built for effectiveness, it was built as a terror weapon. Who would join the Rebellion if they knew that at any point in time the Empire could annihilate them with a single ship?

Remember, Clone Wars Volume 1 and 2 are canon, confirmed by George Lucas. In those series, Yoda singlehandedly stops a droid landing force and Mace Windu nigh-singlehandedly destroys a droid army. Palpatine is, without spoiling anything, at least on their level.

Though true, it may have been because Palpatine was in a younger, more fit body that we able to conjure up the Force Storm, but this is also a being who was able to influence thousands of people simultaneously and keep his presence hidden from the Jedi Council while sitting no more than 10 feet from them. That was in an old, broken body, so I can understand if he couldn't shatter a star destroyer, but with his mental powers he's more than formidable enough.

But they are still inferior canon to the movies. Lucas has said that all other canom comes after the movies.

And since it was firmly established in AOTC that a large Droid army could defeat Jedi in open combat (Mace Windu was losing that battle with at least a couple dozen Jedi at his back, and Yoda needed a Clone army to turn the tide), those displays in CW are thrown out because of what was shown in the Movie.

[sir_snikt'alot]

Those guys are nothing without the sabre sword....hth they are terrible. They can amp their acrobatics and speed plus use a few force tricks and such but thats it. I bet Mandarin without his rings.....just his force field and chi pumping could take Kenobi, Dooku, Vader, and Palpatine by himself.


Kenobi, Dooku, Vader, Palpatine can force amp and hurl objects

vs.

Mandarin without rings....only forcefield and chi pumping

Mandy wins 9 outta 10

the mandarin was nothing without his rings,just a poor man's dr doom,the jedi/sith would crush his body into a gooy pulp with the force.

[Lord Foul]

Nihilus didn't need artifacts to pull off his stunts (like turning whole planets into lifeless husks, and mind-controlling an entire fleet), though operating at that level of power had basically made him a slave to his own hunger.
Well this "wound of The force" stuff sounds a bit different than normal Jedi powers. Compare that to the Jedi using temples to move starship and one of them still dying from it.

[Rabid Trekkie]

And people wonder why non SW fans don't take EU canon seriously. :rolleyes:

Remember when Star Wars was kinda science fiction-y, with believable tech and a Jedi's skill and courage mattered more than his chi--er, force powers? When it wasn't in a verisimilitude-killing death spiral of ever increasing power levels, ludicrous tech, and shallow characterization? I mean really, what's gonna happen in episode 7, if it ever gets made? The emperor is gonna get all muscle-y, grow long blond hair, and transform into Super Sith Level 2?

I used to really like Star Wars, but the franchise has become a sad parody of itself.

What universe did you grow up in. Star Trek with all the technobable of Voyager was closer to believable than Star Wars.

And I don't see the super Jedi as all that bad. I mean Vader did say that destroying a planet wasn't anything terrific compared to the Force. It was just that the Jedi/Sith weren't that strong any more. The Force was out of balance, Vader completes his destiny, the Force is back on track and the power starts going up again.

Also its fantasy and some writers can make it work. And I can't wait for my bro to open KOTOR on his birthday.

[UncleBob]

What universe did you grow up in. Star Trek with all the technobable of Voyager was closer to believable than Star Wars.

And I don't see the super Jedi as all that bad. I mean Vader did say that destroying a planet wasn't anything terrific compared to the Force. It was just that the Jedi/Sith weren't that strong any more. The Force was out of balance, Vader completes his destiny, the Force is back on track and the power starts going up again.

Also its fantasy and some writers can make it work. And I can't wait for my bro to open KOTOR on his birthday.

So you like giving people presents just so you can play with them too, huh?

That's why I constantly get my friends things that I like... like clothes that only I would wear...

[Lord Foul]

I think what he is trying to say is that there is a difference between the SW's movies and DBZ, and noboby told the writers of the EU about it.



And I always though Vader was talking more about the formation of the Empire than any weird force storm to me. The power to corrupt and cause galaxy wide war.

[Draconomicon]

Oh please, even the minor characters in the EU get more characterization than some of the major movie folks.



Let's compare Dooku's development to...oh...Bastila's. Maul's to Calo Nord's. Han Solo to Canderous Ordo.

We certainly knew a heck of a lot more of Exar Kun's past, motivations, and conflict than we did the Emperor or Vader in the first three movies.



Superior tech? What do you expect? The non-Force using folks back in the Old Republic had to co-exist with *thousands*, even tens of thousands of Jedi and Sith. It's only logical they'd develop swords with cortosis weaves to survive combat with a lightsaber, implants to improve physical ability or provide regeneration, equipment that allowed them to handle a blaster better, or force-fields that allowed them to absorb all types of attacks. In a galaxy where dangerous crap happened, you had to be ready.


And with the power came great draw-backs. Nihilus, arguably one of the strongest ever, became a slave to his hunger, and would literally die if he didn't continue to absorb the Force from beings who could use it. His mind was almost completely erased, replaced with nothing more than instinct and an ever increasing appetite.


You speak about stories (in novel, comic or game form) that you haven't even bothered reading before bashing.

I'm in full agreement with this.
Heck, even "Corpses" in the Kotor games have become storylines around them (Star Wars tales #23).

The EU characters are very well developement and the SW world is pure magic there.
If anything, the EU Storylines should take precedence over the movies because they are just so great written. The History of the Sith / Jedi is very interesting if you actually spend time reading it up instead of just bashing it.

[Dhusk]

If anything, the EU Storylines should take precedence over the movies because they are just so great written. The History of the Sith / Jedi is very interesting if you actually spend time reading it up instead of just bashing it.

I'll admit I'm a literati snob when it comes to written science fiction; what franchise fiction I've read is substantially inferior to that written by independent authors. Workf or hire does not tend to inspire groundbreaking work. I'm sure there are some good individual books, but I'm not going to slough through the mountain of crappy ones to find them.

My point was that in the original trilogy, the universe of Star Wars had this very gritty, nut-and-bolts feel where likable characters took center stage. The tech and the Force were cool, but didn't overshadow the people the story was about. It was a world that was very easy to suspend disbelief in.

But that's pretty much been evaporated thanks to the awful reworking in the not-so-special editions and horrible prequels and apparently the EU material. Now its just yet another fictional land with Joseph Campbellian archetypes with ever more unbelievable super powers and uber-tech spectacle. I very, very much doubt that when Lucas first conceived of the Force he envisioned it doing something so ludicrous as extinguishing stars. I mean really, you tell any non-SW fan that in the stories wrinkled old guys can destroy solar systems with a thought just by training really hard, and you don't expect them to roll their eyes? :rolleyes: You're pretty much into DBZ territory here.

[Draconomicon]

I'll admit I'm a literati snob when it comes to written science fiction; what franchise fiction I've read is substantially inferior to that written by independent authors. Workf or hire does not tend to inspire groundbreaking work. I'm sure there are some good individual books, but I'm not going to slough through the mountain of crappy ones to find them.

Well, im not any better, really ^^. I hardly read any Sci-Fi books. Heck until this year, I hadnt read anything else about SW than the Thrawn Trilogy :)


My point was that in the original trilogy, the universe of Star Wars had this very gritty, nut-and-bolts feel where likable characters took center stage. The tech and the Force were cool, but didn't overshadow the people the story was about. It was a world that was very easy to suspend disbelief in.

There was a kind of balance between the characters, the story, with the ships, blasters and force taking a second place behind. I know what you mean.


But that's pretty much been evaporated thanks to the awful reworking in the not-so-special editions and horrible prequels and apparently the EU material. Now its just yet another fictional land with Joseph Campbellian archetypes with ever more unbelievable super powers and uber-tech spectacle. I very, very much doubt that when Lucas first conceived of the Force he envisioned it doing something so ludicrous as extinguishing stars. I mean really, you tell any non-SW fan that in the stories wrinkled old guys can destroy solar systems with a thought just by training really hard, and you don't expect them to roll their eyes? :rolleyes: You're pretty much into DBZ territory here.

See, this is where you are actually wrong.
While the Force has been shown to be more powerful in the EU (especially in the Old republic) the characters STILL take center stage. Yes, they get even developed in a way Luke, Vader and co never got in the movies.

And the old time wasn't less gritty, but it was also more beautiful. We have incredible settings with Korriban, Tomb World of the Sith , with Malachor V (a world ravaged since a superweapon was used on it). We have Dark, but admirable characters like Revan, who got his memory and powers taken just to work himself up to the top again (Kotor), or Exar Kun, who was a man tained with pride and curiosity who fell to the Dark side and nearly conquered the republic in an open "Hyperspace War". We hae Ulic Qel-Droma, who tried to stop a faction of Dark side Sorcerers from taking over a part of the Universe and become an apprentice to Exar Kun, just to later get cut off from his powers and die as a good man, a jedi still at heart.

We learn how there were ancient sith who lived centuries, how there were expansionists as well as isolationists who just wanted to hold on what they had. We learn about the rise and fall of Naga Sadow, who used subterfuge and blackmailing to lead the Sith to the first war with the republic, and how he had to flee to Yavin 4 to escape being punished by Sith and the Old Republic alike.

Yes, there are feats of immense power in the EU, but there is also an immersive backstory, the magic of Star Wars has been renewed and increased (no midlochlorians shit for example) and the history of the SWU has been enriched with beautifully developed characters, Jedi as well as Sith.

The EU has a lot to give to the Star Wars Universe, but you see, on a battleboard, its hard to actually learn about all the character developements if all that counts is their battle prowess ;)

Oh, and I disagree about the Jedi/Sith "training" themselves to DBZ levels.
With DBZ, those powers are internal of every character and very plot device'ish. The Force is some kind of universal power that is accessible to everyone if they spend the time to learn it and even in the first movie it has been said

Darth Vader: Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.

[sir_snikt'alot]

saying dbz is similar to star wars is showing ignorance to the context,it so completelt different.

mace windu doesnt take an hour to power up.

anakin doesnt beat obi-wan because hes super jedi level 4

its completely different.

and saying jedi are overated is like saying yoda is tall,your wrong.

[Dizzy D]

I think what he is trying to say is that there is a difference between the SW's movies and DBZ, and noboby told the writers of the EU about it.



And I always though Vader was talking more about the formation of the Empire than any weird force storm to me. The power to corrupt and cause galaxy wide war.

To use a quote from the same voice-actor:

Steel isn't strong. Flesh is. What is the sword compares to the hand that wields it.

I interpret that Darth Vader quote the same way: a weapon of mass destruction vs. a tool that can make billions obey you (either through subtle enhancement of charisma or outright mental manipulation), predict the future in very limited, though still significant ways and enhance your lifespan.

[Lord Foul]

Please, a semantic augurment? Of course they don't take an hour to power up. As the people you mention are now some of the weakest Jedi thanks to the EU, think about it.


Of course it is a predeposition to the orginal movies and the flaming of fan-boys that makes me dislike the EU power levels. But I can even handle clone wars powerful, but planet destroying? Some vague saying hardly allows for that in my humble opionion.

But yes the EU has its stars of well made stories and its black holes of shit-tastic writing. Even the power level of some Jedi doesn't take away from it that much. And KOTOR 2 and the older stories is passable becuase it is the high point of Jedi/Sith warfare and secret techinques and weapons are belivable. But why is the New Jedi Order more munckin than movie Jedi Order? Thats crap.

[Lord Foul]

To use a quote from the same voice-actor:


I interpret that Darth Vader quote the same way: a weapon of mass destruction vs. a tool that can make billions obey you (either through subtle enhancement of charisma or outright mental manipulation), predict the future in very limited, though still significant ways and enhance your lifespan.


Exactly. Both the Jedi and Sith have used the force to guide the civalaztion of the galaxy for thousands of years. The destruction of a planet or two is hardly comparable to that type of influrence.

[Ghost]

And people wonder why non SW fans don't take EU canon seriously. :rolleyes:

Remember when Star Wars was kinda science fiction-y, with believable tech and a Jedi's skill and courage mattered more than his chi--er, force powers? When it wasn't in a verisimilitude-killing death spiral of ever increasing power levels, ludicrous tech, and shallow characterization? I mean really, what's gonna happen in episode 7, if it ever gets made? The emperor is gonna get all muscle-y, grow long blond hair, and transform into Super Sith Level 2?

I used to really like Star Wars, but the franchise has become a sad parody of itself.

We won't see any Episode VII. Lucas has out-right stated that Star Wars is the story of Anakin Skywalker. It's starts with him as a child and ends with his death. Lucas haven't even considered what happened afterwards.

(However, we will get to see a live action TV-series, supposedly set between Episode III and IV, during the rise of the Empire and forming of the Rebel Alliance.)

As for Star Wars being a sad parody on itself, I think you're exagerating. I used to have similar thoughts, but then I realised that this is what it all looks like, in the end. Had Lucas had the same resources and technology when he made the original trilogy as he has today, they would have turned out just like the new one. The man doesn't even think of it as six movies. He thinks of it as one huge movie that's cut up in six parts.

Besides, much of that feeling is nothing but nostalgia. I've seen kids form secret Jedi clubs after seeing TPM. They'll grow up with the same relationship to these movies as you had to the original ones. And isn't that what it's all about?

[UncleBob]

hahaha, Star Wars nerds...

Luckily I'm not a nerd!

Now let me get back to posting about recent comic books I have read...

[sir_snikt'alot]

We won't see any Episode VII. Lucas has out-right stated that Star Wars is the story of Anakin Skywalker. It's starts with him as a child and ends with his death. Lucas haven't even considered what happened afterwards.

(However, we will get to see a live action TV-series, supposedly set between Episode III and IV, during the rise of the Empire and forming of the Rebel Alliance.)

As for Star Wars being a sad parody on itself, I think you're exagerating. I used to have similar thoughts, but then I realised that this is what it all looks like, in the end. Had Lucas had the same resources and technology when he made the original trilogy as he has today, they would have turned out just like the new one. The man doesn't even think of it as six movies. He thinks of it as one huge movie that's cut up in six parts.

Besides, much of that feeling is nothing but nostalgia. I've seen kids form secret Jedi clubs after seeing TPM. They'll grow up with the same relationship to these movies as you had to the original ones. And isn't that what it's all about?


well said.

[Ghost]

well said.

Thank you.

[Sir Christopher]

Ever seen the PSA commercial where artistic quality goes to hell but nobody knows any different because all the quality stuff was forgotten? Absolute relativism is the worst defense for the prequels you could've possibly mentioned.

[Ghost]

Ever seen the PSA commercial where artistic quality goes to hell but nobody knows any different because all the quality stuff was forgotten? Absolute relativism is the worst defense for the prequels you could've possibly mentioned.

I'm not quite following you. :confused:

[Rabid Trekkie]

So you like giving people presents just so you can play with them too, huh?

That's why I constantly get my friends things that I like... like clothes that only I would wear...

Yeah. I mean he really wanted it too (he knows a Warsie at his school who does nothing but sing the praises of the game) but it was mainly so I can play. I'm going to get my mom to get him a SW game for the PS2 as well. Or Alias season 1, I'm not sure.

[Vaders shoeshine boy]

Are the Jedi overrated?

You be the judge...

http://www.amiright.com/parody/90s/willsmith2.shtml

[Vaders shoeshine boy]

Are the Jedi overrated?

You be the judge...

http://www.amiright.com/parody/90s/willsmith2.shtml


On second thought,I'll just post it here;


"Men in Black" Based on the performance by Will Smith
"Men in Brown" Parody by Steven Cavanagh

They do the same job. They have the same attitude. Hell, even half the aliens look the same.

Here come the Men in Brown
Save you from disaster
Here come the Men in Brown
Padawan and Master

Here come the Men in Brown
Save you from disaster
Here come the Men in Brown
Padawan and Master (uh uh, uh uh)

The good guys dress in brown. What's goin' down?
We're the joes in the dark brown robes, and we're in town.
We got the swords of light, Jedi Knight
The real deal with the skills and the insight.
So don't fear,
here we are and then we're gone
Brown robes and the real tall boots on
We got power, dealin' the butt kick,
Guard against enemies of the Republic
But though we ain't no official police
We don't walk the beats,
Just come in and keep the peace
See something bad
Do not try
Just leave it to the men in brown, call the Jedi.
Uh and...

Here come the Men in Brown (here they come)
Save you from disaster (right on, right on)
Here come the Men in Brown (men in brown)
Padawan and Master (uh uh, uh uh)

Now, up in the biggest tower in sight
We're guarding Padme, Artoo givin' the night light
Creepies crawl, my saber gets them all
Hear Padme call and see Kenobi falling
So I leave her, jump in a speeder
Diving faster, catch the master
Then we're on the case in a speeder chase
And we get the pace
on lizard face
I get above her and then I'm dropping
Excuse me!
Get her rockin', gun's poppin' on me
That's the first, last and only time I survive
a skydive like I own the universe.
We go crashin', smashin',
and then I get a tongue lashin', we're catchin'
assassin
Toxic dart comes in and puts her down
(who we work for?)
Men In Brown.

(The Men In Brown)
Right on, Right on
The Men In Brown (The Men In Brown)
Let me se ya just bow with me
Just bow with me
Just bow with me, c'mon
Get a speeder and fly with me
Just fly with me
Come fly with me, c'mon
Let me see ya use the Force with me
Use the Force with me
Use the Force with me, c'mon
Now wave a saber.
Now freeze.

Here come the Men in Brown (here they come)
Save you from disaster (right on, right on)
Here come the Men in Brown (men in brown)
Padawan and Master (uh uh, uh uh)

And Kenobi's
checkin' out this thing with clonin'
Me, well I'm the one that's chosen
And Padme, even if our love's forbidden
Believe me, I can't keep it hidden
Cause we want things that we just can't be
And this is testing out my loyalty
But you'll be my wife,
and if it brings a frown
I still got the brown suit,
and we're the men in
we're the men in

Here come the Men in Brown (here they come)
Save you from disaster (right on, right on)
Here come the Men in Brown (men in brown)
Padawan and Master (uh uh, uh uh)

[jadehorde]

I dunno, you can't SEE the Emporer coming.

A small Moon Parks itself outside your planet, EVERYONE on the Planet starts pissing themselves and then being good little Imperial Subjects....

On the other hand...ANY ISD can be carrying the Emperor....or a shuttle for that matter.

[jadehorde]

What universe did you grow up in. Star Trek with all the technobable of Voyager was closer to believable than Star Wars.

And I don't see the super Jedi as all that bad. I mean Vader did say that destroying a planet wasn't anything terrific compared to the Force. It was just that the Jedi/Sith weren't that strong any more. The Force was out of balance, Vader completes his destiny, the Force is back on track and the power starts going up again.

Also its fantasy and some writers can make it work. And I can't wait for my bro to open KOTOR on his birthday.

I don't take it to be physically more powerful...people claim a pen is mightier than a sword, and in many ways it is, but not in a knife fight.

[jadehorde]

Well, im not any better, really ^^. I hardly read any Sci-Fi books. Heck until this year, I hadnt read anything else about SW than the Thrawn Trilogy :)



There was a kind of balance between the characters, the story, with the ships, blasters and force taking a second place behind. I know what you mean.



See, this is where you are actually wrong.
While the Force has been shown to be more powerful in the EU (especially in the Old republic) the characters STILL take center stage. Yes, they get even developed in a way Luke, Vader and co never got in the movies.

And the old time wasn't less gritty, but it was also more beautiful. We have incredible settings with Korriban, Tomb World of the Sith , with Malachor V (a world ravaged since a superweapon was used on it). We have Dark, but admirable characters like Revan, who got his memory and powers taken just to work himself up to the top again (Kotor), or Exar Kun, who was a man tained with pride and curiosity who fell to the Dark side and nearly conquered the republic in an open "Hyperspace War". We hae Ulic Qel-Droma, who tried to stop a faction of Dark side Sorcerers from taking over a part of the Universe and become an apprentice to Exar Kun, just to later get cut off from his powers and die as a good man, a jedi still at heart.

We learn how there were ancient sith who lived centuries, how there were expansionists as well as isolationists who just wanted to hold on what they had. We learn about the rise and fall of Naga Sadow, who used subterfuge and blackmailing to lead the Sith to the first war with the republic, and how he had to flee to Yavin 4 to escape being punished by Sith and the Old Republic alike.

Yes, there are feats of immense power in the EU, but there is also an immersive backstory, the magic of Star Wars has been renewed and increased (no midlochlorians shit for example) and the history of the SWU has been enriched with beautifully developed characters, Jedi as well as Sith.

The EU has a lot to give to the Star Wars Universe, but you see, on a battleboard, its hard to actually learn about all the character developements if all that counts is their battle prowess ;)

Oh, and I disagree about the Jedi/Sith "training" themselves to DBZ levels.
With DBZ, those powers are internal of every character and very plot device'ish. The Force is some kind of universal power that is accessible to everyone if they spend the time to learn it and even in the first movie it has been said

Darth Vader: Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.


So Force Storms capable of tearing ships apart isn't plot devicish and completely natural?

[jadehorde]

We won't see any Episode VII. Lucas has out-right stated that Star Wars is the story of Anakin Skywalker. It's starts with him as a child and ends with his death. Lucas haven't even considered what happened afterwards.

(However, we will get to see a live action TV-series, supposedly set between Episode III and IV, during the rise of the Empire and forming of the Rebel Alliance.)

As for Star Wars being a sad parody on itself, I think you're exagerating. I used to have similar thoughts, but then I realised that this is what it all looks like, in the end. Had Lucas had the same resources and technology when he made the original trilogy as he has today, they would have turned out just like the new one. The man doesn't even think of it as six movies. He thinks of it as one huge movie that's cut up in six parts.

Besides, much of that feeling is nothing but nostalgia. I've seen kids form secret Jedi clubs after seeing TPM. They'll grow up with the same relationship to these movies as you had to the original ones. And isn't that what it's all about?


Maybe...but if he had remained a hungry young director trying to prove himself...and not trying to make more bucks than god...we might have more palatable movies for the prequels. He might actually have had to listen to some criticism.

[Draconomicon]

So Force Storms capable of tearing ships apart isn't plot devicish and completely natural?

Considering the EU background, its nothing new or "Out of the blue".
Doesn't take away from how immensely the characters are developed.
I am impressed with the high standard of writing in the "Star Wars Tales" and "Star Wars Empire" books.

Btw: Thank you for Ignoring the rest of what I wrote...

And you'll probably hate the attached scan ;)

It takes place between Episode 4 and 5.

[jadehorde]

Considering the EU background, its nothing new or "Out of the blue".
Doesn't take away from how immensely the characters are developed.
I am impressed with the high standard of writing in the "Star Wars Tales" and "Star Wars Empire" books.

Btw: Thank you for Ignoring the rest of what I wrote...

And you'll probably hate the attached scan ;)

It takes place between Episode 4 and 5.

The rest of what you wrote is nothing I can comment on as I've not read any EU, so I ignored it...didn't realize we had such a close relationship that this would offend you.

Why the hell would I care about the pic?

EDIT - And we've already commented on the Vader line so there wasn't much left to discuss in your post.

[Draconomicon]

EDIT: Yeesh, breathe, man, breathe!

[sir_snikt'alot]

the vader 'noooooooooooooooo' line was corny,but it didnt ruin the movie or the character.

[Aries_04]

the vader 'noooooooooooooooo' line was corny,but it didnt ruin the movie or the character.


LMAO on that part.

[Matt]

the vader 'noooooooooooooooo' line was corny,but it didnt ruin the movie or the character.

It came pretty damn close, though.

[Donald Stone]

It came pretty damn close, though.I think something along the lines of a gutteral scream would have been more appropriate.

[Dizzy D]

I think something along the lines of a gutteral scream would have been more appropriate.

The chamber shaking around them was reaction enough. He didn't need to scream or say anything.

[Ghost]

Maybe...but if he had remained a hungry young director trying to prove himself...and not trying to make more bucks than god...we might have more palatable movies for the prequels. He might actually have had to listen to some criticism.

Listen to criticism? We are talking about a man who deliberatly uses cuts with wooden acting because he considers it part of his vision! This is a man who made a PG-13 rated movie for an audience of mainly kids, because "that's what the story looks like."

George Lucas does not compromise. What we get is Star Wars in it's purest form. You either like it or you don't, in which case you can go and make your own sci-fi epic for all that he cares.


"I have to tell a story. I'm not making [the prequels], oddly enough, to be giant, successful blockbusters. I'm making them because I'm telling a story, and I have to tell the story I intended."

In his own words.

[Rabid Trekkie]

Listen to criticism? We are talking about a man who deliberatly uses cuts with wooden acting because he considers it part of his vision! This is a man who made a PG-13 rated movie for an audience of mainly kids, because "that's what the story looks like."

George Lucas does not compromise. What we get is Star Wars in it's purest form. You either like it or you don't, in which case you can go and make your own sci-fi epic for all that he cares.



In his own words.


"Now get out of here so I can go back to countin' me money!" -George Lucas

[UncleBob]

"Now get out of here so I can go back to countin' me money!" -George Lucas

"And tell Tiny Tim he will go hungry again this year!" - George Lucas

[Aries_04]

the mandarin was nothing without his rings,just a poor man's dr doom,the jedi/sith would crush his body into a gooy pulp with the force.


Mandarin was regarded as being one of the greatest martial artists on earth without his rings. In addition he had toughened all the striking surfaces of his body to the point where he could break steel. He was a scientific genius able to invent teleport devices and personal force fields.

[sir_snikt'alot]

Mandarin was regarded as being one of the greatest martial artists on earth without his rings. In addition he had toughened all the striking surfaces of his body to the point where he could break steel. He was a scientific genius able to invent teleport devices and personal force fields.

as i said,a poor man's dr doom.

[Ghost]

"Now get out of here so I can go back to countin' me money!" -George Lucas

Really now! Mr Lucas has people to count his money for him. ;) :p
Heck, I bet he even has people to count the people who's counting his money.

[Gorthaur]

Really now! Mr Lucas has people to count his money for him. ;) :p
Heck, I bet he even has people to count the people who's counting his money.Don't be foolish.

He has droids for that.

[Aries_04]

as i said,a poor man's dr doom.

Doom's abilities were more like window washing....Mandarin's abilities coincide with the character. Doom is a little of this and a little of that.....Mandarin was an accomplished fighter.

[MichaelChen]

Not sure why it is being compared negatively to Doom. They are very different characters.

Doom is someone who wants to make the world a better place with himself in charge. Doom would give us all free healthcare as long as we kissed his ass.

The Mandarin wants to plunge the world into chaos and become the dominate warlord in a world in chaos.

Doom revels in prep and defeating his foes without ever having to lower himself to direct combat with dirty peasants. Prep proves how much smarter he is than everyone else, and he takes an artists loving pride in it.

The Mandarin revels in single combat, and loves nothing better than to end a fight with his shirt ripped and the blood of his enemy splattered all over him. Mandarin preps to conquer the world because he has to, but he doesn't revel in prep the way Doom does. Prep for Mandarin is a reluctant acknowledgement that he can't just kung fu his way into world conquest.

[Alan2099]

the vader 'noooooooooooooooo' line was corny,but it didnt ruin the movie or the character.

Of course not. It was quite well ruined before that point.

[Siriel]

You know that Jedi are overrated when a thread about why they're overrated is raised from the dead almost four years later.^^

Of course, some would blame the search function. But that is foolish.

[Surtur]

If this is about why jedi are overrated I don't understand the need for Mandarin. Not being able to beat certain characters doesn't mean they aren't overrated. However, I personally don't find them overrated. I think they're quite underpowered actually, but that's for another time.

[Alan2099]

Of course, some would blame the search function. But that is foolish.
... the search function works?

[Siriel]

... the search function works?

In the sense that it will only show very old or very new threads and will pretend that anything more recent than three years ago and older than two weeks ago does not exist, yes, it works.

[Stretch Dude]

DIE ZOMBIE!

*chainsaws the thread's head off*

[Len Ikari145]

In the sense that it will only show very old or very new threads and will pretend that anything more recent than three years ago and older than two weeks ago does not exist, yes, it works.

Yeah, even with Advanced Search (which usually worth a damn) shows...absolutely nothing relevent to what was inputted.

I hate this site sometimes. I really do.

[God_of_Awesome]

I don't have that problem, but then I only look for thread I started.

[Len Ikari145]

I don't have that problem, but then I only look for thread I started.

Lucky you, I can't even find that much unless I go to my profile.

[cosmic eagle]

In the sense that it will only show very old or very new threads and will pretend that anything more recent than three years ago and older than two weeks ago does not exist, yes, it works.

So that's where my old WWII fighter aces thread went.....