Raw 05-16-2005: What, you thought Christian wasn't jobbing?

[Leslie Lee III]

Bitch away Coalition.

[GoGo Yubari]

This is the most counterproductive push in AGES.

That is all.

[Leslie Lee III]

And wasn't it great how they didn't stop at him just losing, they had him get bitched by Batista just to add that extra "FU" to the fans. Great stuff WWE, seriously. And thanks for the Edge and Lita hook up. People really wanted that.

[Howard Allan]

And wasn't it great how they didn't stop at him just losing, they had him get bitched by Batista just to add that extra "FU" to the fans. Great stuff WWE, seriously. And thanks for the Edge and Lita hook up. People really wanted that.


The Edge/Lita hookup was figured out 2 weeks ago.

[sir_snikt'alot]

at least they have multiple angles/storys going on now,instead of just the triple h show.

[GremlinClr]

And wasn't it great how they didn't stop at him just losing, they had him get bitched by Batista just to add that extra "FU" to the fans. Great stuff WWE, seriously. And thanks for the Edge and Lita hook up. People really wanted that.

We really didn't, but how many people wanted to see Lita/Kane? Did you enjoy the whole wedding thing?

I bet J.R. was loving last night. You know he was just burning to scream at Lita and call her a harlot. I think it'll be cathardic for the WWE to just get it out there and talk about it. And the fans had turned on Lita for Matt anyway, just make her a full fledged heel.

[Sean Walsh]

The Edge/Lita hookup was figured out 2 weeks ago.

Actually, people were talking about them hooking up onscreen when the news broke online.

Although I'm not sure any of them were serious about it actually happening...

[marshal99]

Yup , without Triple H , Christian has gotten quite a bit of airtime and it looks like Christian will be getting payback on Batista so their feud is far from over. It can only help Christian leading up to the draft.

I like how RAW still continue to use Viscera as the "sexual chocolate" even after his loss to Kane in the backlash PPV , have to say that i am curious as to where it's leading with this Lillian Garcia/Viscera angle. Viscera is comedy gold with this angle.

If only Triple H can stay away from RAW for a few more months...

[sir_snikt'alot]

me and my house mate were watching raw while drinkin some beers and there were two occasions where we both almost similtaniously vomited our beer out-

1-seeing chris masters,he makes me want to bottle myself.

2-edge and lita kissing,its bad enough what they did to matt,now we have to see them doing stuff,and i cant tell which one has the bigger jaw bone?!

[Howard Allan]

Actually, people were talking about them hooking up onscreen when the news broke online.

Although I'm not sure any of them were serious about it actually happening...


I was talking about it happening on camera during the finals of the tournament. We all knew about her skanking around long ago.

[sir_snikt'alot]

I was talking about it happening on camera during the finals of the tournament. We all knew about her skanking around long ago.

edge should be known as mr dick in the skank,it has a better ring to it.

[Ray192]

Christian jobbed to Flair. FLAIR! The master jobber!

But hey, it's still a nice "feud."

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Pretty decent show.

The Benoit/Tajiri tease was productive in that it will eventually lead to Heyman showing up and sticking up for ECW.

Candice vs Christy was fluff but Viscera actually turning on Lilian is a angle to see played out. I wonder if Lilian will go far with old Mabel.

Christian/Flair was pretty decent but I guess Christian getting jobbed out will just lead to his departure and push against Cena on Smackdown. Only way to go unless something unique happens next week during the Batista/Edge match. One way or another, Christian or Kane will interfere with that one and botch the ending.

The Batista/Flair relationship was shown in good standing but of course it's just another teased Flair face turn. He's still sucking to Cripple H too much for his own good.

Lita turned against Kane as the WWE reacted to the "We Want Matt" and "You Screwed Matt" chants by aligning her with Edge. The heat should be fun to hear next week. Considering how weak both are in their offscreen lives, it's well deserved.

Benjamin/Jericho vs Hassan/Divari was a quick paced tag team match. Jericho took the lost and looked frustrated at first but later on in the backstage skit with Shelton, he played if off like it didn't matter. Some believe it's going to lead to a Hollywood Heel Rock-like turn where he's too big for the business but who knows. Wouldn't make much sense to see Jericho turn back heela after he just turned face last year leading to WM XX.

A nice 8/10 for all around effect of Raw this week and with no Cripple H, hopefully the quality can continue.

[GoGo Yubari]

Yup , without Triple H , Christian has gotten quite a bit of airtime and it looks like Christian will be getting payback on Batista so their feud is far from over. It can only help Christian leading up to the draft.

But, see, if the point of this whole thing is to make Christian a contender for Cena's belt, it would be a good idea to HAVE HIM WIN A FREAKING MATCH AT SOME POINT.

Christian gets mic time, which is nice, but he's also made out to look like a complete and total jobber, which kills that momentum dead.

[JohnPopa]

Jobbing doesn'y affect momentum if the company decides to push somebody, look how many jobs Batista did just last year, for example. Now he's an unbeatable monster even though he did job after job as late as last summer.

Christian can be made to look credible with one push, no problem.

[Gaz]

Jobbing doesn'y affect momentum if the company decides to push somebody, look how many jobs Batista did just last year, for example. Now he's an unbeatable monster even though he did job after job as late as last summer.

Christian can be made to look credible with one push, no problem.
Yeah, and he can go on a cheating/winning streak when he jumps brands.

[hangmanjury]

I've always said that I don't take the wrestlers' personal lives into account when i'm enjoying their product, but...

Poor Matt. Poor, poor Matt.

However, I can't help but think that if the internet weren't so damn vocal about the whole Lita/Edge issue, partly because of Matt, it would have never come to this.

[ace hole]

i remember matt hardy had to job to everyone (including zach gowan) when he was due to jump to raw, i think this is whats happening with christian.

i cant believe they built up masters so much to feud with steven richards.

[Shade]

i cant believe they built up masters so much to feud with steven richards.

Screw that! I think it's awesome! Richard's should be used more for sure and can probably make Masters lame ass look good to some extent. Plus after he broke his nose and all it's a built in angle that maybe they can do better than the Chavo/Kidman bit.

[titanfan]

The people around me in the arena when Richards attacked Masters: "Who is that? I can't tell? Do you know who just attacked him?" I didn't know either at first. Stevie Richards makes so few RAW appearances these days that he's not immediately recognizable.

[Leslie Lee III]

Jobbing doesn'y affect momentum if the company decides to push somebody, look how many jobs Batista did just last year, for example. Now he's an unbeatable monster even though he did job after job as late as last summer.

Christian can be made to look credible with one push, no problem.

But considering he's hot with the fans RIGHT NOW it might be smart to start that push RIGHT NOW instead of having him lose every week. I don't know, maybe that's just crazy talk but it makes sense to me.

[Shade]

The people around me in the arena when Richards attacked Masters: "Who is that? I can't tell? Do you know who just attacked him?" I didn't know either at first. Stevie Richards makes so few RAW appearances these days that he's not immediately recognizable.

So? They have to see Hulk Hogan come out to care? Maybe being there live they don't have the benefit of having the commentators to explain the history that doesn't negate the potential of the possible storyline.

[GremlinClr]

The people around me in the arena when Richards attacked Masters: "Who is that? I can't tell? Do you know who just attacked him?" I didn't know either at first. Stevie Richards makes so few RAW appearances these days that he's not immediately recognizable.

So does that mean if you see it live you can't hear King and J.R. commentary? If so that just sucks, and another reason TV is better than live.

[GoGo Yubari]

Jobbing doesn'y affect momentum if the company decides to push somebody, look how many jobs Batista did just last year, for example. Now he's an unbeatable monster even though he did job after job as late as last summer.

Christian can be made to look credible with one push, no problem.

Batista, when he started his push, has lost like twice and I believe both were to Randy Orton to set-up the short term Orton/HHH program.

Meanwhile, Christian is being pushed right now and he's jobbing to EVERYONE. The difference between Batista and Christian is that even when losing two times he looked like a credibile threat. Christian, meanwhile, looks like a loser with delusions of grandeur.

[JohnPopa]

Batista did ample jobs as a member of Evolution. He did the jobs in the tag matches all over the place, jobbed to Jericho, jobbed to Benoit. He jobbed all over Raw and PPV. Then they decided to push him and now everyone thinks he's unstoppable.

Look, despite the delusion of the Peeps, Christian IS a loser with delusions of grandeur, that's his character. If the company changes that, then it will change pretty quickly because he gets a great reaction from the audience and audiences don't care about long-term win/loss records. But he's NOT a main event heel right now, he's midcard comedy, nothing more. Not everyone who gets a pop for comedy is destined to be a main player.

[GoGo Yubari]

Batista did ample jobs as a member of Evolution. He did the jobs in the tag matches all over the place, jobbed to Jericho, jobbed to Benoit. He jobbed all over Raw and PPV. Then they decided to push him and now everyone thinks he's unstoppable.

You are missing my point. Batista was not being pushed as a main event threat. Then they started pushing him as a main event threat and he beat Benoit in NINE MINUTES. It is FINE that Batista jobbed in the past before he got a push. But when they started pushing him, he didn't job all over the place anymore.

Look, despite the delusion of the Peeps, Christian IS a loser with delusions of grandeur, that's his character.

And this gimmick will get you NOWHERE when the goal is to make Christian a challenger to Cena's belt (which is what they've been foreshadowing for a month now). This is not an undercard comedy schtick. This is an attempt to make Christian a possible headliner, and it's absolutely braindead.

If the company changes that, then it will change pretty quickly because he gets a great reaction from the audience and audiences don't care about long-term win/loss records. But he's NOT a main event heel right now, he's midcard comedy, nothing more.

You're right. All the blatantly obvious foreshadowing that he's going to be transfer to Smackdown and feud with John Cena totally means he's just a midcard comedy act.

[JohnPopa]

Batista was in Evolution when he did his jobs. Evolution absolutely was a main event heel team, always pushed as the focal point of the shows and major programs. He was being pushed heavily and doing jobs at the same time. It didn't affect his credibility when he got pushed into the title program.

My point is obvious: Christian is not a main eventer on Raw. Christian can go to Smackdown right now and if they push him against Cena, people will buy it because people react to Christian, regardless of his push. Wins and losses don't matter, reactions do. Wrestling 101.

[Royal]

You guys got to tune in to PWI. Belfi & Buck is putting the hit on a indie promoter!

http://www.sportstalkcleveland.com/

[Jamal]

Raw sucked again.

They have never push Christian correctly the guy has proven that he is ready for the top spot time and time again but anytime someone gets close to that top Heel spot they get jobbed down to nothing ( Jerico, Orton etc ).
Note: I'm not even a big fan of the guy.

The Lita/Edge angle was typical WWE crap and hope it comes back and bites them in the ass.

The way they are doing the ECW angle is turning me off of the PPV, I think I'm going to just wait for the dvd of the Hardcore Homecoming show that Shane Douglas is putting on.

And "no" you can't hear the commentary at the live shows ( I alway hated that ).

[Leslie Lee III]

But he's NOT a main event heel right now

And how does he become that, by magic? No, you push him properly. WWE should be doing it, they aren't doing it. He shoudl be a main event heel, instead he's being held down and jobbing in the mid-card for no good reason.

Wins and losses don't matter, reactions do. Wrestling 101.

Jobbing a guy out in WWE will kill a guys reaction, especially a guy who hasn't gotten over the world title hump yet. This is just more poor booking by the WWE, not taking advantage of the best opportunity to make a star. Instead, it's Edge getting a title shot...when he already has one. Nice to see WWE taking cues from TNA.

[JohnPopa]

Wins aren't going to elevate Christian. He's not a top player. He's a good worker with a lot of personality.

Roddy Piper never beat Hulk Hogan or Jimmy Snuka and yet he's the only heel people remember from the eighties and those are the two biggest WWE feuds of the decade. Wise ass heels can be all talk and no results and it doesn't hurt them. They exist to PUT OVER FACES, nothing more. Christian SHOULD be jobbing to Benjamin for a strong IC title. Benjamin needs the rub from an established heel like Christian. That would be a sensible push.

So you'd rather Christian wins the Gold Rush tournament and does another world title TV job like he did last month? Because not everyone gets to be World Champion, you know. Maybe when Russo books but nowhere else.

[Leslie Lee III]

Wins aren't going to elevate Christian. He's not a top player.

He's not a top player because he hasn't been elevated.

So you'd rather Christian wins the Gold Rush tournament and does another world title TV job like he did last month? Because not everyone gets to be World Champion, you know. Maybe when Russo books but nowhere else.

He should have gone on a Gold Rush win streak then get jaked out of the title by HHH, which is the exact same thing that's going to happen to Edge except with Kane OR HHH. Let's see, so losing to Kane, again, then Ric Flair, HHH's manager, isn't better than than winning a tournament over the top stars then losing in a screwy fashion. Christian done his IC title jobbing, it's time to move him to bigger and better things.

There is no more Hulk Hogan to hold the belt for forever, you can't get away with that now so the fact that Piper never got the belt doesn't matter in a world where Batista is world champ. Christian has everything it takes to be a main eventer, and a world champ. Now would be a good time to start moving him towards that position. Now is not a good time to job him out for no reason at all.

[JohnPopa]

No, he's not a top player because he's a cartoony goof who isn't a strong enough physical presence to get over his own moves. His offense isn't convincing and his moves aren't intimidating. He's funny and he's a good worker-to-worker performer, holding together sloppier workers and meshing well with top workers when putting them over or stealing chincy heel wins that don't elevate him. Heels aren't going to get clean wins (other than HHH.) If Christian is going to get over with wins, it's only going to work if he's a face, something no one is putting forth when everyone wants him to run to Smackdown! and feud with Cena to get 'elevated.'

Honestly, I didn't get the Flair angle either, especially not heel-to-heel. But the Kane/Edge thing makes a lot better business sense than Christian beating Kane or having Christian wrestle Edge, who people would rather see together than against one another.

[titanfan]

So? They have to see Hulk Hogan come out to care? Maybe being there live they don't have the benefit of having the commentators to explain the history that doesn't negate the potential of the possible storyline.

No, not at all. They just need to do it in such a way where it doesn't seem so random. Would have been great for example if Masters accidently pulled a disguised Stevie Richards from the audience. (He is known for dressing up in any case) Eventually of course, everyone in the audience realized who it was, but when things just happen out of nowhere like that it seemed silly.

Omaha never gets good RAW/Smackdown shows. Best moment of the night was Viscera singing. And yeah, you can't hear commentary. I don't know if that would be better or worse. I mean when you go to a football game, you can't hear commentary either. On the other hand, I would have loved to hear JR call Lita a harlot.

[lboinyamouf4sho]

No, he's not a top player because he's a cartoony goof who isn't a strong enough physical presence to get over his own moves. His offense isn't convincing and his moves aren't intimidating. He's funny and he's a good worker-to-worker performer, holding together sloppier workers and meshing well with top workers when putting them over or stealing chincy heel wins that don't elevate him. Heels aren't going to get clean wins (other than HHH.) If Christian is going to get over with wins, it's only going to work if he's a face, something no one is putting forth when everyone wants him to run to Smackdown! and feud with Cena to get 'elevated.'

Honestly, I didn't get the Flair angle either, especially not heel-to-heel. But the Kane/Edge thing makes a lot better business sense than Christian beating Kane or having Christian wrestle Edge, who people would rather see together than against one another.


i'm with you on this 1, christan is funny on the mic and solid in the ring but i don't really care to see him in the mainevent as a heel or face. on the other hand anyone is better than hhh to me.

[Tusk]

Lita and Edge together is BS to me. Besides that on "Captain Charisma's" behalf, I think he'll get title shot, but it'll be against John Cena at SmackDown on some PPV.

[Knightmare]

I don't think Christian needs the wins to get over right now. He's really working the mic well. The lose to flair didn't really mean much but it wasn't well planned. 1) Does it really help Flair to beat Christian--no. 2) It would have helped Christian, though again it didn't hurt him 3) But what did is being btiched by Batista. After the lose Flair could have got beaten on or something for Christian to work with the following week. Insted--batista murdered him and Tomko * and it really sucks that he's getting airtime for the simple fact that he ahngs with Christian right now).

Christian however will never be a main event player on Raw, doesn't have the physical presence. But on Smackdown, which I'm hoping he goes just because he'd give me a reason to go to the shows when they come to cleveland.

Edge's push is so much BS. Not just because of the Lita thing, but simply because I find him over rated. And they should really not be playing with the lita edge thing. I've noticed the chants start to die out a bit but the WWE is just keeping it goign. Has to really suck for Lita to know when the fans are chanting, "She's a Crackwhore," that they really mean it.


And on a last remark.....

When you close your eyes....

[stealthwise]

Christian will never be a main eventer.

That's not a knock on his mic skills or in-ring talent, because I think that both are definitely excellent. He's paid his dues, worked his ass off and is recognized by the fans for it.

But he's got no credibility whatsoever. He wins through cheating or in survival matches (like the TLC/ladder/table junk in the tag division) and has been seen jobbing to everyone under the sun. He takes great bumps and has little to no innovative offense, or at least stuff that people would recognize and associate with him, other than the awkward-looking Unprettier that he rarely gets to use.

And that's the way his character has been for the past decade or so. It's not a bad thing, but it does cripple his ability to be seen as a credible champion.

The only way to go about it is to actually give him a strong string of wins, much like WWE did for JBL. And like JBL, they would have to give Christian a whole new look and gimmick to almost completely disassociate him with his past jobbing, much like they did when he started working the mic in his post-Brood days. Unfortunately, that would probably kill some of his heat, which he also needs right now.

The best thing WWE could do for Christian is to have him jump to Smackdown, start kicking the crap out of everyone in his way with a minor gimmick overhaul, and then find a way to beat out Cena. Cena's already over, he's already champ, have Christian take the belt and run with it until Mania, where he might be able to get the same kind of credibility that JBL (supposedly) built for himself. But right now, the Raw jobs aren't helping in the slightest.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Thier planting seeds for Christian and Orton most likely to be put on Smackdown. Christian Is just a few wins away from being a Main Event heel people. Did you see his fued with Jericho last year ? The man Is gonna Main Event a Brand at some point.

People lose matches. Christian though as he told Tomco : " Its not over ! "

I think he's gonna get Involved In the Edge/Batista match as well as jump Ric Flair next week. Remember he lost matches to Jericho last year In thier heated fued , but he always came back and delivered a great mic battle or match.


The ECW Hype continues as you just know...Paul Heyman will show up next week. He'll show up and just go ape sh-t on Bischoff. I also expect to see Sandman , Dreamer and a few older ECW Stars show up backstage and scare Bischoff.

This has to make you wonder. Why was the RAW/Smackdown Draft pushed back to hype ECW ? Maybe because McMahon wants It to sell and see If he can relaunch It as a brand. The fans are also taking part booing Bischoff's anti-ECW hatred. Brings a huge smile to my face.


Good RAW. Mutiple storylines are running and the show looks 10 times better. Maybe someone listened and decided that a show with a bigger focus works.

[VCreed32]

Just about ANY live event that you attend, you can't hear the on-air commentart. Wrestling, football, basketball, whatever.

Jeez, was Candice supposed to knock Christy da f*** out of the ring like that?

[Dennis K]

The only way it's going to be even slightly possible to make Kane interesting again is to put the mask back on and make him the one man wrecking crew.

[sir_snikt'alot]

The only way it's going to be even slightly possible to make Kane interesting again is to put the mask back on and make him the one man wrecking crew.

the maskless kane was stale the second he started fighting shane mcmahon,bring back scary old school kane.

[stealthwise]

Thier planting seeds for Christian and Orton most likely to be put on Smackdown. Christian Is just a few wins away from being a Main Event heel people. Did you see his fued with Jericho last year ? The man Is gonna Main Event a Brand at some point.

People lose matches. Christian though as he told Tomco : " Its not over ! "

I think he's gonna get Involved In the Edge/Batista match as well as jump Ric Flair next week. Remember he lost matches to Jericho last year In thier heated fued , but he always came back and delivered a great mic battle or match.

And Jericho couldn't buy a win during his push and unsuccessful title reign either. Reason being that he never was given any clean, meaningful wins, which hurt his credibility.

[hangmanjury]

And Jericho couldn't buy a win during his push and unsuccessful title reign either. Reason being that he never was given any clean, meaningful wins, which hurt his credibility.
Yeah, sure, but that aside, Chris Jericho is now one of the few men on Raw who wouldn't even benefit by holding a championship. Credible, not credible, winner, loser, the man is so over that the crowd will pop for him when he's a face and boo him when he's a heel. That's how over he is, credible or not. I believe that at one point before he even won the undisputed championship, he had seven straight pay-per-view losses, but that doesn't hurt his standing. Wins on Raw only really matter in the short term, and won't even play into the long-term push unless J.R. and King keep harping on it.

[stealthwise]

Yeah, sure, but that aside, Chris Jericho is now one of the few men on Raw who wouldn't even benefit by holding a championship. Credible, not credible, winner, loser, the man is so over that the crowd will pop for him when he's a face and boo him when he's a heel. That's how over he is, credible or not. I believe that at one point before he even won the undisputed championship, he had seven straight pay-per-view losses, but that doesn't hurt his standing. Wins on Raw only really matter in the short term, and won't even play into the long-term push unless J.R. and King keep harping on it.


The point I was trying to make is that if you have no credibility, it's hard to put others over and do the same for them. The only one on Raw with some solid cred is HHH, and a win over him gets you over like clover (until he comes back and buries you, of course).

[marshal99]

the maskless kane was stale the second he started fighting shane mcmahon,bring back scary old school kane.

Not going to happen , the scary old school kane was lost the minute they teamed him up with X-crap and then have Tori as his "girlfriend".