JLU - The Clash: BEST EPISODE EVER!!!

[kash]

it just aired on friday in Canada.

AMAZING EPISODE. Captain marvel was all he is and was should be...TRUTH JUSTICE AND A HERO.

amazing work from JM Dematties every scene flawless, IMO the best episode of the series EVER

[Michael P]

The Clash joined the Justice League? Rockin'!

[Kevinroc]

You're Canadian?! ;)

[kash]

Indeed Toronto born and bred :D

[Adem]

Its my second favourite episode so far. The best part was when Captain Marvel was holding Supes above his head and yelling shazam.

Kask do u live in Rexdale?

[Astonishing X-Fan]

It was an amazing episode, that's for sure. One of the best fight scenes in the series.

[lonewolf23k]

Yeah, definetly one of the best episodes I've seen so far. ...And I absolutly loved Luthor.. ...Lex is Back, better and badder then ever.

[Mainline]

The episode proves two things:

1. For the third time, the magic lightning tactic fails to work for Billy.... in KC, LST, and now "The Clash", he's always stopped from using it and caught in his vulnerable form.

2. The creators of the show fail to understand Superman... even their own version of him.

That said, it was an entertaining fight.

[kash]

Its my second favourite episode so far. The best part was when Captain Marvel was holding Supes above his head and yelling shazam.

Kask do u live in Rexdale?


Yuh-huh born n raised in the rex

[Astonishing X-Fan]

"2. The creators of the show fail to understand Superman... even their own version of him."

The whole POINT of the episode was to show that Supes is CHANGING. That he's becoming more like his Justice Lord counterpart.

[Adem]

Yuh-huh born n raised in the rex

Nice I thought I was the only person who read comics in Rexdale.

Also about the show its nice to see its keeping the plot going.

[THE OG GL]

great episode. Captin marvel owned

[Mainline]

"2. The creators of the show fail to understand Superman... even their own version of him."

The whole POINT of the episode was to show that Supes is CHANGING. That he's becoming more like his Justice Lord counterpart.

Besides the fact people don't change overnight (much less that drastically), it's missing the POINT that a CHANGE has to be FROM something to something. Changing to his Justice Lord counterpart is one thing, but he has to LEAVE something that's never properly established in the series.

We get that Marvel looks up to him. We get that Superman was the moral core of the team and an inspiration (from the episodes where he's thought to be dead). This is all implicit. And that's the problem. On screen, we've never seen the Superman that Marvel is mourning the loss of. Superman was never an inspiring idol in the series making Marvel's expectations pointless, unrealistic, and lacking impact... apparently, whomever wrote him, saw an entirely different Superman from the rest of the series.

[cactusmaac]

Besides the fact people don't change overnight (much less that drastically), it's missing the POINT that a CHANGE has to be FROM something to something. Changing to his Justice Lord counterpart is one thing, but he has to LEAVE something that's never properly established in the series.

We get that Marvel looks up to him. We get that Superman was the moral core of the team and an inspiration (from the episodes where he's thought to be dead). This is all implicit. And that's the problem. On screen, we've never seen the Superman that Marvel is mourning the loss of. Superman was never an inspiring idol in the series making Marvel's expectations pointless, unrealistic, and lacking impact... apparently, whomever wrote him, saw an entirely different Superman from the rest of the series.

There was a post at the DC boards which pretty much said the same thing.

I just got to see "The Clash" and even Captain Marvel got more looks of wonder than Supes ever did. What happens is the wholesale rape of Superman's character... every moral fiber, sense of justice, knowledge of right and wrong is thrown out the window.

Then we're supposed to mourn the loss of his honor, never properly established by the series. We get that Marvel honors Supes... but we don't rightly know why. It's implicit... but never shown. It's implicit, that Supes believes in justice and the system, otherwise he would've taken Luthor out on his own terms long ago... it's implicit that he's the Leader of the Justice League and that they mourn his death/disappearance because he stood for something more and was the moral core of the team- followed because of his character, not his powers (otherwise Martian Manhunter would be the chairman)...

...and yet, it's never pulled off on screen for us to see.

We just don't get that commanding presence from Timm-verse's Superman... instead we get a impulsive, angry, jealous, sarcastic, and often foolish Supes. The Clash exhibits everything wrong with the Timm-verse's view of Superman and his fans... that we're drawn purely to his power(s) and just want to see big fights.

Alex Ross says (in reference to "Peace on Earth" how Superman learns to lead through example instead of hands on), "To me, Superman as a fictional character is just as important as if he existed in flesh and blood- either way he is inspirational, and that's what's relevant."

To me, this is key and this is what was completely missed by the animated version... powers, costume, plot points, etc... all close... but completely missing out on the CHARACTER of Superman.

I'd have to agree and say that the Timmverse version of Superman has been its' biggest misfire.

[lonewolf23k]

On the one hand, I do agree that Superman is more then just a powerful hero, he's a role model, and he should be treated as such.

On the other hand, even in the comics, Superman has never been "perfect". He has some doubts, he does feel some anger, and sometimes he makes mistakes. What makes him a hero is that in spite of it all, he tries his best, fights against impossible odds to protect people, and is determined to stop evil.

Looking at "The Clash", I could understand why Superman was as suspicious as he was. Remember, this Superman's been lied to before and trickedby people who claimed to be good people. I can especially understand his willingness to believe the worst of Luthor, given their past track record. And as it happened, Superman was right to be suspicious of Luthor, but failed to see through his schemes before it was too late.

All in all, none of this seemed perticularly out-of-character by my understanding of the characters and their background.

[methanolcereal]

The Clash joined the Justice League? Rockin'!
Did The Spectre bring Joe Strummer back or was there some other mystical force behind it?

[hangmanjury]

I want a Captain Marvel cartoon so badly.

[lonewolf23k]

I want a Captain Marvel cartoon so badly.

I'm surprised DC hasn't tried bringing back the "Power of Shazam!" Cartoon yet, actually. I mean, talk about a Superhero who's made for kids!

[SuperManny]

I missed the episode! Did it come out this past Saturday in the States, or was this a treat for the Canadians??

[shadow of a madman]

Great episode,no doubt.
But anyone else find it odd that Superman and Captain Marvel could get into a knock-down drag-out fight that causes untold havok and destruction and the JL doesn't send anyone down to try and break them up and/or contain the damage?

[Sean Whitmore]

I missed the episode! Did it come out this past Saturday in the States, or was this a treat for the Canadians??

*can't find it on LimeWire*


*Cough* It's there. *Cough*....


SEAN

[Grant]

*Cough* It's there. *Cough*....


SEAN

Currently waiting in line for it. Position 10. I need to see animated Captain Marvel... NOW!

[hangmanjury]

I'm surprised DC hasn't tried bringing back the "Power of Shazam!" Cartoon yet, actually. I mean, talk about a Superhero who's made for kids!
Yep, and that whole segment where he flies to Fawcett City, with that music in the background?

That was really screaming spinoff to me. I'd love to see the entire Marvel Family, in that all-ages way.

[Doom]

Besides the fact people don't change overnight (much less that drastically), it's missing the POINT that a CHANGE has to be FROM something to something. Changing to his Justice Lord counterpart is one thing, but he has to LEAVE something that's never properly established in the series.

We get that Marvel looks up to him. We get that Superman was the moral core of the team and an inspiration (from the episodes where he's thought to be dead). This is all implicit. And that's the problem. On screen, we've never seen the Superman that Marvel is mourning the loss of. Superman was never an inspiring idol in the series making Marvel's expectations pointless, unrealistic, and lacking impact... apparently, whomever wrote him, saw an entirely different Superman from the rest of the series.

Look at the scene where Superman is landing that falling plane. Listen as they play the Superman theme.
It's all about bringing up /making everyone remember that this IS the same Superman as that animated series. Those were his glory days. This show acknolwedges the fact that it was not created in a vacuum, and so acknolwedges the shows that came before it.

I loved this episode and everything about it. But I've always prefered Captain Marvel to Superman.

[lonewolf23k]

Great episode,no doubt.
But anyone else find it odd that Superman and Captain Marvel could get into a knock-down drag-out fight that causes untold havok and destruction and the JL doesn't send anyone down to try and break them up and/or contain the damage?

Well, by the time the League heard of the fight, it was probably over...

[Doom]

Anyone think J'onn was being a bit heelish when Batman requested he send back up?

I don't think this is evidence that he's acting like a traitor or anything, just he knew that Captain Marvel was on the way and would be helping Batman out.

I definitly think CM's going to show up towards the climax of the series, to save everyones bacon.
However I'm a bit worried that the Question may not survive much longer if the next episodes preview of him in a torture chamber is anything to go by.

[Sean Whitmore]

Anyone think J'onn was being a bit heelish when Batman requested he send back up?


I just took it as trying to capture the feeling of the old Giffen/Demattis League. That, and when Batman called Marvel "sunny". :) Slightly OOC, but funny.


SEAN

[Ekko]

Grrrrr. I feel cheated. Here everyone is talking about how great the episode was, and Cartoon Network has the nerve not to televise it so they could put that Clone Wars garbage on. It's bad enough CN has decided to only air the show once a week (unlike Static or freaking Teen Titans which is on all the time), but they hose me on the one chance I do get. It's bad enough I'm already way behind on episodes, they're not helping out. Is there any word that the show might start airing more than it currently is on CN or any other network soon?

[Sam]

Grrrrr. I feel cheated. Here everyone is talking about how great the episode was, and Cartoon Network has the nerve not to televise it so they could put that Clone Wars garbage on. It's bad enough CN has decided to only air the show once a week (unlike Static or freaking Teen Titans which is on all the time), but they hose me on the one chance I do get. It's bad enough I'm already way behind on episodes, they're not helping out. Is there any word that the show might start airing more than it currently is on CN or any other network soon?

Well, Cartoon Network is waaaay behind. I think they still have yet to air "Task Force X", with all the other ones to follow.

The only way to see the new ones in America is to download them illegally.

[Sean Whitmore]

Well, Cartoon Network is waaaay behind. I think they still have yet to air "Task Force X", with all the other ones to follow.

The only way to see the new ones in America is to download them illegally.


Or wait until this Saturday, when Cartoon Network starts showing the new episodes :)

Still be a bit of a wait until "Clash", though. First they gotta get through "Task Force X", "The Balance", "Double Date", and "Hunter's Moon". But they're all good too. ;)


SEAN

[Adaptoid]

I have to agree that this episode was well written. With so many fight and chase episodes, at least the fight and chase stuff was meaningful and directly advanced the story.

It may be that Timm and company understand Superman better than we do. I think it's fair to criticize the JLU Superman, but I must reject the criticism. The writers are not changing him, they are extrapolating how Superman would evolve given the changes in the world.

Superman is a character with few weaknesses, but his lack of objectivity as far as Luthor is concerned is a weakness. Batman's strength -- his cold objectivity -- was wrong and Superman's cynicism of Luthor was right. But wasn't it great how that all played out? And I cannot imagine a better use of Captain Marvel. The story made no sense without his presence. Marvel's inclusion was a stroke of genius.

This is the best of the "Arc" episodes. I still cannot see a reason why the government would go to such lengths to protect against a hypothetical, theoretical, potential future when so many actual and realized threats and crisis situations exist. Where's the government effort to battle super-villians?

But Superman is in character. His lengthy service as a hero has hardened him beyond recognition in some respects. I wonder when Lois will enter the picture in some meaningful way to center Superman again? Isn't that all Superman really needs? The JLU Lois is a throwaway so far. Too bad.

But since this is the best written comic book series going, I have every confidence that everything will work out to the satisfaction of all the die hard fans.

I love this series and only wish they would produce as many as possible and show them all year around. A box set DVD would be great. The Ultimate Jimmy DVD's for season two were excellent. Now if only there was a DVD along the lines of the MTV Spider-Man TV show. Shazam!

[Mainline]

Look at the scene where Superman is landing that falling plane. Listen as they play the Superman theme.
It's all about bringing up /making everyone remember that this IS the same Superman as that animated series. Those were his glory days. This show acknolwedges the fact that it was not created in a vacuum, and so acknolwedges the shows that came before it.

I loved this episode and everything about it. But I've always prefered Captain Marvel to Superman.

I disagree, if you've watched the Superman series you'll remember he never really provided the inspiring awe that Billy's talking about... he was pretty much just another cape. You had people like Flash showing up in his series with little fan fare either way... people weren't in awe of their heroes, they were placing bets on who'd win. In The Clash you have one little girl looking out the window and showing glee... vs Marvel's awed flyover the citizens.

The point is, sure, they're acknowledging the show, but even his own show never acknowledge Superman's character.

[Kevinroc]

This is another episode of build-up to the 5 part season finale.

The episode was meant to show how much Superman can act like his Justice Lords counterpart.

In the end, Superman acknowledged that he screwed up.

A lot of the Superman episodes featured smaller threats and were much smaller in scale than many of these Justice League plots.

[Mainline]

I have to agree that this episode was well written. With so many fight and chase episodes, at least the fight and chase stuff was meaningful and directly advanced the story.

I still find it contrived... the irony is that everyone is acting out of character AND pointing it out! Batman is appreciating a sunny personality. Captain Marvel calls the League out for their behavior. Luthor can't believe Superman (and Marvel) did what they did. Superman can't believe it himself. The League in awe of Marvel acting unlike himself at the end (not to mention, it takes two to tango- if he had stopped fighting, at worse, only the generator would have been destroyed). It's a bunch of people all acting differently than expected and we're supposed to buy it.

I'll buy the plot points as necessary to the arc- JLU credibility further strained, Luthor's bid for president looking unstoppable, Batman's awareness of a conspiracy, etc.- but in the context of The Clash they weren't pulled off plausibly for my money.

[Mainline]

The episode was meant to show how much Superman can act like his Justice Lords counterpart.

In the end, Superman acknowledged that he screwed up.

That's an important part... if Superman is at all the same one from the comics, he's supposed to be humbled by it and learn from his mistakes. I'll put $5 on him NOT learning anything for the short term... raging when his fellow League member falls.

A lot of the Superman episodes featured smaller threats and were much smaller in scale than many of these Justice League plots.

Regardless, it's not the powers or the feats (otherwise Amazo, Dr. Fate, or J'onn would be leader)... big or small tasks, are an opportunity for Superman's honor/character to show through... something that his own show didn't (at least not to the extent that Batman's Dark Knight icon was properly exhibited). Superman's cartoon character was much of the power without the personality.

[i5hawn]

best episode ever? yep
advance in overall jlu plot? nope

ever since the doomsday ep we haven't really seen any more of this whole cadmus arc. the series just seems to be plodding on. i kind of miss the start of the series...with so many characters (even though it's fun to see some of them) the show is just stretched really thin. i can't wait for the end of this series. looks like we'll be seeing the beginnings of the superman/batman series.

[Sean Whitmore]

best episode ever? yep
advance in overall jlu plot? nope


Well, that depends whether or not Captain Marvel plays a role later on. Also, we finally get confirmation that Luthor is working with Cadmus (whereas before it was merely conjecture)


ever since the doomsday ep we haven't really seen any more of this whole cadmus arc.


What about "Task Force X" and "The Balance"? Both are quite Cadmus-heavy.


i can't wait for the end of this series.


Not me. I hope it lasts longer than all the previous Batman 'toons combined! :)



SEAN

[shadow of a madman]

Well, by the time the League heard of the fight, it was probably over...


Well the fight lasted like five minutes and I think there was some pretty heavy news coverage on that.They were already there for the Lexor city thing.

[SuperManny]

best episode ever? yep
advance in overall jlu plot? nope
ever since the doomsday ep we haven't really seen any more of this whole cadmus arc. the series just seems to be plodding on.

Are you kidding? This season has been nothing BUT plot-heavy. I was looking at the line-up for the rest of the season the other day and I noted how there weren't any more of those one-shot episodes with guest villains and heroes. This series definitely needs more of those, in order to showcase the tapestry of characterization the DCU really is. And hopefully they will be in receipt if a 5th season is approved.

Speaking of which, the end of this season suggests a closure of the series...?? Say it isn't so! :( The show is super-popular!!

Or wait until this Saturday, when Cartoon Network starts showing the new episodes :)

But that's what I asked in my previous post, if "The Clash" was showcased in the U.S., and nobody answered.

This is one of those rare cases where I can wait until Cartoon Network premieres it......why bother downloading it when the anticipation isn't there anymore...?

*can wait*

[lonewolf23k]

Well the fight lasted like five minutes and I think there was some pretty heavy news coverage on that.They were already there for the Lexor city thing.

Here are some factors to consider: First the JLU has to recieve the emergency call. If they're monitoring the news, then that's fast enough. Now, consider that J'onn needs to find supers who can stop a superhuman brawl between Superman and Captain Marvel. Preferably a large number of them.

Then, if any of them are on other emergencies, he has to pull them off of those as fast as possible. As seen at the start of the episode, that can be a serious delay, if said super is already busy saving a few hundred lives and needs a few minutes to finish it.

Then, they have to arrive on the scene as fast as possible; that can be another serious delay, especially if they were on the other end of the earth or in deep space at the time they got the call. And once on the scene, they have to locate Superman and/or Captain Marvel to stop and seperate them.

In the real world, it can sometimes take the police 5 to 10 minute to respond to an emergency call, and that's with patrol cats making the rounds in neighborhoods. I can believe it would take the Justice League the same amount of time to respond to emergencies on a global level.

[Lord Foul]

The whole Superman character thing is compleatly understandable, he was jealous, suspious, and screwed up. Let the guy be human and give us a better character.

[Doom]

I disagree, if you've watched the Superman series you'll remember he never really provided the inspiring awe that Billy's talking about... he was pretty much just another cape. You had people like Flash showing up in his series with little fan fare either way... people weren't in awe of their heroes, they were placing bets on who'd win. In The Clash you have one little girl looking out the window and showing glee... vs Marvel's awed flyover the citizens.

The point is, sure, they're acknowledging the show, but even his own show never acknowledge Superman's character.

Oh I disagree.

The Superman show people were in awe of Superman. People betting on him or the Flash, well that's a tradition that stretches all the way back to Pre Crisis.
People in the Superman cartoon would look up and point at Superman, whenever he flew over head. Note how big an impact him going evil had in the last few episodes on the people. How stunned they were.
Or how Darksied thought that chaining Superman up and putting him on his tank would break the spirit of Metropolis.

The big thing about the Timm show was, even though Superman was seen as an icon, it was made clear he wasn't. Superman was just the ultimate hero, but he was Clark Kent. He was a fantastic human being, a really good man. But a man none the less. While even if everyone looked up to Superman, he wasn't a perfect figure they saw. He himself had all too human doubts and worries.

It's one of Superman's biggest dilema's (both in character in the stories, and outside his stories when you try and examine him.) He's this icon, perfect symbol to everyone.
But inside he's a man. A Super Man, but a man none the less. He's not Jesus 2: Jes-El, the guy who's never wrong and if he is, then the universe will do it's damndest to alter itself until Superman is right.

Marvel looked up to Superman as an icon, as someone who was perfect and always knew what to do. But Superman himself isn't perfect. That's what we got out of this episode.

I think Father Ted said it best.
"It just goes to show. You should never meet your heroes. You'll just be disapointed."

[Adaptoid]

The big thing about the Timm show was, even though Superman was seen as an icon, it was made clear he wasn't. Superman was just the ultimate hero, but he was Clark Kent. He was a fantastic human being, a really good man. But a man none the less. While even if everyone looked up to Superman, he wasn't a perfect figure they saw. He himself had all too human doubts and worries.

Marvel looked up to Superman as an icon, as someone who was perfect and always knew what to do. But Superman himself isn't perfect. That's what we got out of this episode.

"It just goes to show. You should never meet your heroes. You'll just be disappointed."

Big tip of the hat to you Doom. You get it. I hope other fans are as discerning. I firmly believe that JLU is the best-written comic book in all comicdom -- even if it isn't a technically a comic book at all. One more season and then on to something new and hopefully even better.

[hangmanjury]

Big tip of the hat to you Doom. You get it. I hope other fans are as discerning. I firmly believe that JLU is the best-written comic book in all comicdom -- even if it isn't a technically a comic book at all. One more season and then on to something new and hopefully even better.
Yes... like a Captain Marvel cartoon!

What? Captain Marvel cartoon?

Yes, a Captain Marvel cartoon!

[SuperManny]

One more season and then on to something new and hopefully even better.

Actually if we're all lucky, two more seasons, considering the 52-episode limit I keep hearing about that Cartoon Network presses.

*crosses fingers*

[Smokey]

i was very shocked when supes shoved luthor and then marvel..it did seem a bit out of character, tho it was fun to see marvel get his ass beat

was anyone else wondering why superman destroyed the playground when he could easily just do his spin thingy to get underground? he even does it later in the ep, i found that funny

[Forsaken_One]

After watching this episode (Go Bittorrent!) and a few others in quick succession I have to say that the JLU sure is an... authoritarian orginization, isn't it? I mean, telling a superhero that any and all statements have to go through them first? Okay, you're a member, but that's more than a bit harsh. Double Date (which I also just watched) is the same kinda thing, with the Justice League acting in generally unheroic (but realistic) ways and being really, really hard lined. Not to mention giving superhero ID cards. That was great, what with the picture showing Huntress with a mask on. Yes, that's a great picture ID, very useful. :p

I mean, the government isn't much better, what with Camdus being more a paramilitary weapons research program, cloning Supergirl, creating a limited life-span super team, using Suicide Squad in all but name, and so on. But still... gah. I'm starting to believe the Question is the only sane one.

[Smokey]

After watching this episode (Go Bittorrent!) and a few others in quick succession I have to say that the JLU sure is an... authoritarian orginization, isn't it? I mean, telling a superhero that any and all statements have to go through them first? Okay, you're a member, but that's more than a bit harsh. Double Date (which I also just watched) is the same kinda thing, with the Justice League acting in generally unheroic (but realistic) ways and being really, really hard lined. Not to mention giving superhero ID cards. That was great, what with the picture showing Huntress with a mask on. Yes, that's a great picture ID, very useful. :p

I mean, the government isn't much better, what with Camdus being more a paramilitary weapons research program, cloning Supergirl, creating a limited life-span super team, using Suicide Squad in all but name, and so on. But still... gah. I'm starting to believe the Question is the only sane one.

i think it makes sense what they did to marvel, the league cant afford to be endorsing supervillains for the presidency, why? they are popular, the people would probably follow someone they supported..if lex gets elected president and then blows up the world, who is there to blame? oh the league told us he was ok...

so i can see where they were coming from

[Forsaken_One]

i think it makes sense what they did to marvel, the league cant afford to be endorsing supervillains for the presidency, why? they are popular, the people would probably follow someone they supported..if lex gets elected president and then blows up the world, who is there to blame? oh the league told us he was ok...

so i can see where they were coming from
But that's just it. The Justice League didn't endorse luthor, Captain Marvel did. If they're PR team is so bad at people associate what one member says with the whole of the Justice League, well, they have problems. Furthermore they're saying they're all for truth and justice but, guess what? Captain Marvel is a United States citizen, and the Justice League is attempting to tell him not to use his rights under the First Amendment. Superman, of all people, should care about upholding that little peice of the Constitution.

Granted, there is the worry of them getting involved in politics, either of their own members or of the public at large. They're already damn close to an Authority style control of the world and they seem to have thousands of superheros at their beck and call, so they're getting involved in politics isn't a good thing. But they didn't call Captain Marvel on that problem, they didn't warn him about the perils of any superhero attempting to influence the public. No, they warned him specifically because he commented that he was giving Luthor a second chance, which is in and of itself political. They wouldn't have done it, as I see it, if he'd endorsed the other canidate.

Of course even ignoring US law and the questionable ethics of their reasoning, it's still an authoritarian action to tell a member of your orginization that they must put all public comments through you before he can actually say it. Justified or not, it's very authoritarian. Just as their actions towards the Huntress, justified or not, were authoritarian. Just look at the way they talk; it's not "Okay Superman" or "Sure thing Superman" it's "Yes sir." Thou shalt obey the orders from on high at all costs, what the Martian or Kryptonian is to say is the way it is and you cannot do anything of your own will. It sounds to me more like a para-military orginization with clear chains of command than a collection of powerful people attempting to do more good by joining forces.

[cactusmaac]

Oh I disagree.

The Superman show people were in awe of Superman. People betting on him or the Flash, well that's a tradition that stretches all the way back to Pre Crisis.
People in the Superman cartoon would look up and point at Superman, whenever he flew over head. Note how big an impact him going evil had in the last few episodes on the people. How stunned they were.
Or how Darksied thought that chaining Superman up and putting him on his tank would break the spirit of Metropolis.

The big thing about the Timm show was, even though Superman was seen as an icon, it was made clear he wasn't. Superman was just the ultimate hero, but he was Clark Kent. He was a fantastic human being, a really good man. But a man none the less. While even if everyone looked up to Superman, he wasn't a perfect figure they saw. He himself had all too human doubts and worries.

It's one of Superman's biggest dilema's (both in character in the stories, and outside his stories when you try and examine him.) He's this icon, perfect symbol to everyone.
But inside he's a man. A Super Man, but a man none the less. He's not Jesus 2: Jes-El, the guy who's never wrong and if he is, then the universe will do it's damndest to alter itself until Superman is right.

Marvel looked up to Superman as an icon, as someone who was perfect and always knew what to do. But Superman himself isn't perfect. That's what we got out of this episode.

I think Father Ted said it best.
"It just goes to show. You should never meet your heroes. You'll just be disapointed."


Naah, I didn't get that vibe at all from Superman TAS.

Some villain would show up, Supes would beat the crap out of him and that was it.

[Doom]

Naah, I didn't get that vibe at all from Superman TAS.

Some villain would show up, Supes would beat the crap out of him and that was it.


*Dismayed silence.*

Sure and the instances of him in pain and having to think up clever ways of defeating villians were just so the story would stretch to fill the 20 minute time slot.

[Mainline]

Naah, I didn't get that vibe at all from Superman TAS.

Some villain would show up, Supes would beat the crap out of him and that was it.

Yep. It's hilarious that Superman spends more time paying tribute to Batman's icon (World's Finest- 3 eps, Knight Time, The Demon Reborn - episodes that helped to highlight who Batman was; not to mention Lobo, Flash, GL, Aquaman, Supergirl, Steel, and villains-of-the-week) than his own. With only 54 episodes ONE FIFTH were dedicated to other heroes and about two thirds to his rogues (bulk of episode was developing the villain).

Blow of all blows, the series goes out with Superman getting defiled and Turpin being the source of inspiration. Turpin! I mean, granted, he was a beloved side character that got cameos and maybe 15 minutes of accumulated screen-time... but it says something when your grand finale is a slap to your title-character's face and the most inspirational moment in the entire series comes from a bit role.

Clever ways of defeating enemies is in EVERY hero's playbook... being an inspiration and moral pillar is Superman's trademark.

[SuperManny]

Blow of all blows, the series goes out with Superman getting defiled and Turpin being the source of inspiration. Turpin! I mean, granted, he was a beloved side character that got cameos and maybe 15 minutes of accumulated screen-time... but it says something when your grand finale is a slap to your title-character's face and the most inspirational moment in the entire series comes from a bit role.


How was the final episode a slap in the face for Supes? He defeated Darkseid's plan and saved the world.....maybe at the cost of his reputation but he even promises at the end he would work on earning everyone's trust.
There's a man that won't give up. The Turpin dedication was a reference/tribute to Jack Kirby's work, since Turpin was designed after Jack's real life look. Not knowing who Jack Kirby was, those other Superman fans can say that even Superman cared about EVERYONE on Earth, with that source attribute.

It's good to see someone as powerful as Superman portrayed as someone who can STILL be manipulated and having degrees of self-doubt. Makes him more than just 1-dimensional.

*thought Fleischer's cartoons were fun to watch though, even with no inner continuity*

[Mainline]

How was the final episode a slap in the face for Supes? He defeated Darkseid's plan and saved the world.....maybe at the cost of his reputation....

Right there pretty much answers your own question. It's one thing to perform an act of heroism which stops the world from fearing and hating you... it's another when they STILL fear and hate you in the aftermath. If it wasn't a stain, then the JLU episodes wouldn't keep referring to it. Heck, Lois- of ALL people- refers to it. Put another way, in many ways, reputation is all Supes has... the series and JLU did a lot to tear down something that wasn't fully established to begin with.

[Doom]

Because the people should have just gone "we love you Superman" then started singing his theme music in the last episode?

I liked the Timm Superman show and much prefere it's presentation of Superman. I like him as being a "human on the inside" hero over some Icon who everyone worships and does nothing wrong.

I think Five For Fighting got it right.

[Mainline]

Because the people should have just gone "we love you Superman" then started singing his theme music in the last episode?

I liked the Timm Superman show and much prefere it's presentation of Superman. I like him as being a "human on the inside" hero over some Icon who everyone worships and does nothing wrong.

Obviously not by that point, it's just the cherry on top of a steaming pile of characterization gone awry. A finale to prove a trend.

Timm's Superman was just human period. Again, never asked for a flawless icon (you could show me where I do, if I've forgotten)... I just asked for an icon period BEFORE you start tearing it down (it's fine if that's what you want to do storywise, but you can't tear down what isn't there). Every example that's been given of him being a person of character/inspiration/icon has been a viewer reading waaaay deeper than what was actually presented on screen.

[Doom]

But that's the problem.

People ascribe the status of Icon-ness to Superman.

He's seen as being this special fictional characters, that's purer or better then others. It's an intangable part of his character that people inscribe iconess to him. (Either his fans outside the books, or other superheroes in the DCUniverse when talking about him.)

I'm sure if you talked to Superman he'd neither understand nor want the iconess ascribed to him.

[Mainline]

I'm sure if you talked to Superman he'd neither understand nor want the iconess ascribed to him.

Disagree. That's the premise behind "Peace on Earth", "Lost", and a half a dozen other stories, recognizing his own value as a symbol and example of hope.

[hangmanjury]

Yeah, but I think he neither understands nor wants the iconness ascribed to him. He recognizes it and recognizes his responsibility as a symbol, but he doesn't want it nor does he really understand why he has it.

[Sam]

Disagree. That's the premise behind "Peace on Earth", "Lost", and a half a dozen other stories, recognizing his own value as a symbol and example of hope.

On the other hand, I've seen more than one story which made the point that Superman is such an icon largely because he's largely oblivious to the fact that he's an icon, and just tries to help people as best he can.

[Doom]

(I lost this post before posting it, so I'm trying to recreate it from memory.)

The thing to remember is Captain Marvel hadn't met Superman before the Clash. Everything he knew about him was based off hearing about him. And so he created this iconic, perfect Superman in his head without actually meeting the guy himself.

So he meets him in the Clash, and he's crushed to learn that Superman isn't as iconic as he imagined him to be. Of course not, he imagined Superman as a perfect, unfaliable guy. He had never met the actual Superman before. It's just like basing your opinion on someone based on what you've heared and not what they are really like.
And it's unfair for Clark Kent (IE the real Superman) to try and compeat with this Superman of verisimilitude.

[LtMarvel]

What a neat episode. I got chills when Cap flew to Fawcett City and changed to Billy.

I didn't understand why Superman was so miffed in the first scene.

I loved that the Flash had to look away during "We don't endorse deoderants" line.

Is Steel the second JLer named but never seen (after Plastic Man)?

Oh, and who were those quartet of super-villians Superman and Batman took down while talking shop? I think the big guy was Black Mass (or something like that), but I can't remember their powers or backstories...

[IamtheRock3]

But that's just it. The Justice League didn't endorse luthor, Captain Marvel did. If they're PR team is so bad at people associate what one member says with the whole of the Justice League, well, they have problems. Furthermore they're saying they're all for truth and justice but, guess what? Captain Marvel is a United States citizen, and the Justice League is attempting to tell him not to use his rights under the First Amendment. Superman, of all people, should care about upholding that little peice of the Constitution.

Granted, there is the worry of them getting involved in politics, either of their own members or of the public at large. They're already damn close to an Authority style control of the world and they seem to have thousands of superheros at their beck and call, so they're getting involved in politics isn't a good thing. But they didn't call Captain Marvel on that problem, they didn't warn him about the perils of any superhero attempting to influence the public. No, they warned him specifically because he commented that he was giving Luthor a second chance, which is in and of itself political. They wouldn't have done it, as I see it, if he'd endorsed the other canidate.

Of course even ignoring US law and the questionable ethics of their reasoning, it's still an authoritarian action to tell a member of your orginization that they must put all public comments through you before he can actually say it. Justified or not, it's very authoritarian. Just as their actions towards the Huntress, justified or not, were authoritarian. Just look at the way they talk; it's not "Okay Superman" or "Sure thing Superman" it's "Yes sir." Thou shalt obey the orders from on high at all costs, what the Martian or Kryptonian is to say is the way it is and you cannot do anything of your own will. It sounds to me more like a para-military orginization with clear chains of command than a collection of powerful people attempting to do more good by joining forces.

Actully if your part of an orgnazation you CAN get in trouble for what you say in the public eyes

First Ammedement doest all ways GURANTEE you wont get fired for stuff you say.

[IamtheRock3]

this show the best animated show ever

man Supes was being a COMPLETE jerl to Cap at first. I mean from the start. He really could of avoided the fight if he was nicer

I would of been like "Listen undestand you want to trust the guy but he nuts...I mean he has been evil like a week ago. He a good lier..least keep your eyes open will you kid..I mean dang"


Although understand his doughts..pretty mad Lex for the whole you know trying to kill him and his loves ones a 100 of times and maybe destroying the world in the future.

Lex did make a great point about hawkgirl



Pres Lex...unrealistc in the comic as well as the Cartoon and yes I AM going by comic book standards too

It MUCH be a Season DVD

none of this 3 episodes strung together bullshit

Fucking The Batman got a DVD season 1
Why not JLU which 10 times more superior..and I like The batman

[Sanagi]

This was an awesome episode, and a perfect reminder of how Captain Marvel is the most woefully neglected of all superheroes. More, please!

Superman was sure in Superjerk mode, though. Much as I enjoyed the tension between him and Marvel, I would like to see Supes straighten out his mood swings and get back to deservedly being the guy everyone looks up to. I suppose we'll probably see him ramp up to Justice Lord mode before turning things around, though...

[Sean Whitmore]

Is Steel the second JLer named but never seen (after Plastic Man)?


We saw Steel in "The Return" last season. He and Supergirl broke into Luthor's safehouse, and then got trashed by Amazo.

And the Canadians have seen him a couple of times since then, too. :)


SEAN

[Justin D.]

Right there pretty much answers your own question. It's one thing to perform an act of heroism which stops the world from fearing and hating you... it's another when they STILL fear and hate you in the aftermath. If it wasn't a stain, then the JLU episodes wouldn't keep referring to it. Heck, Lois- of ALL people- refers to it. Put another way, in many ways, reputation is all Supes has... the series and JLU did a lot to tear down something that wasn't fully established to begin with.

The fact that he performed the act of heroism and some people still feared him only increases the heroic nature of the act. It's doubtful Superman thought that doing the deed would make everyone suddenly trust him again. He went into it knowing what the likely outcome would be, yet still had little or no hesitation with following through. In no way do I think that it is a stain on the character.

[davids]

It repeats tonight 10:30 cartoon network!

[derekwc]

Oh, and who were those quartet of super-villians Superman and Batman took down while talking shop? I think the big guy was Black Mass (or something like that), but I can't remember their powers or backstories...
Ditto. Are those real DC villians or not? I didn't recognize them.... :confused:

[Lex]

This just in from the Obscure Character Nerd:

The quartet of super-villains that Batman and Superman were fighting was a group called the Cadre. The members shown in this episode were Black Mass (big, strong guy), Shaterfist (guy with glowing hands), Fastball (lame baseball themed villain) and Crowbar (who... has a magic crowbar). In the comics, they were major villains for the Detroit Era Justice League and, more recently, they teamed-up with Dr. Polaris and battled the Power Company.

Thus ends the Obscure Character Nerd's sermon. :D

I just saw this episode. It was great! It managed to capture some of Captain Marvel's best qualities and showed why he's such a great character. It was fun and had a lot of character issues, specifically with Superman and Captain Marvel. And, the fight in Lexor City was way cool!

I was a little disappointed that they didn't go into Cap's origin, but they probably didn't have time to go into it.

All in all, one of the best JLU episodes yet.

[derekwc]

This just in from the Obscure Character Nerd:

The quartet of super-villains that Batman and Superman were fighting was a group called the Cadre. The members shown in this episode were Black Mass (big, strong guy), Shaterfist (guy with glowing hands), Fastball (lame baseball themed villain) and Crowbar (who... has a magic crowbar). In the comics, they were major villains for the Detroit Era Justice League and, more recently, they teamed-up with Dr. Polaris and battled the Power Company.

Thus ends the Obscure Character Nerd's sermon. :D

I just saw this episode. It was great! It managed to capture some of Captain Marvel's best qualities and showed why he's such a great character. It was fun and had a lot of character issues, specifically with Superman and Captain Marvel. And, the fight in Lexor City was way cool!

I was a little disappointed that they didn't go into Cap's origin, but they probably didn't have time to go into it.

All in all, one of the best JLU episodes yet.


Right the guys from Vibe and Steel Gypsy LEague and the Giffen Era....

[bannermanonemillion]

I want to point out that this is a Superman who is starting to show the strain of what's been going on the past few years (TV time). First of all he still carries the guilt of being brainwashed by Darkseid and used as a weapon against Earth. Second, he's coming to grips with how he's truly perceived by the public either as an ultimate icon or as that alien guy who could kill us all if he got brainwashed again. He's also still dealing with the fact that in another reality, he made one choice which led him down the path to being just as bad as Luthor. How could that not scare him? AND after the Thanagarian mess, he and the Leaguers had to pull together to keep Earth safe, so in one sense, yeah they're turning into the Authority, but now we see that Clark is starting to see how far he's strayed from the hero we remember from the early Timm years (back when he sounded like Tim Daly :D )

[Captain Smith]

I think it was a great episode. Those who hyperanalyze it in terms of some mythic set of universal Superman behavioral laws need to chill out a tad.

The fight was a really well done piece. It would nice to see Supes kick butt on a villian like he did on Marvel. In a sense, he was beating on a child which I found a touch troublesome. Marvel was childlike in the satellite with his reaction to all the heroes.

One question, what was under Supes costume when he got hit by the lightning. It was gray. So was it a burned up Super hairy chest or an undershirt?

[LtMarvel]

My understanding is that is one nasty burn on Superman's chest.

[SuperManny]

It repeats tonight 10:30 cartoon network!

Wow I wish I read this message board right after I missed it the first time :p

*having difficulty finding a working LimeWire version*

[Sean Whitmore]

*having difficulty finding a working LimeWire version*


Hang in there. :) It's where I got mine, so they've definitely got at least one uncorrupted file.

*currently having the same problem with "Panic in the Sky"*


SEAN

[Bouncing_Beast]

AMAZING EPISODE. Captain marvel was all he is and was should be...TRUTH JUSTICE AND A HERO.
I totally agree, although that may be because I am such a fan of Captain Marvel and I loved seeing the "Big Red Cheeze" in the series. I think they did a great job on his character, and I hope its not the last we see of Billy. :D

I really liked the way they handled the fight between Superman and Captain Marvel, too. Showed the sort of "fallout" that should be much more common when such powerful being start fighting in the middle of a city. ;)

[vazel]

best episode ever!!

sorry, i just had to say that. loved seeing captain marvel. :D

[Peter]

I'm a massive Captain Marvel fan, so yeah, I *loved* seeing him in this episode. Particularly being treated as Superman's equal (okay, so technically he lost that fight at the end, but they were trading blows pretty evenly up to that point).

But I have to admit, seeing Superman spend five minutes pounding his face, and then watching him totally pwn the Justice League before quitting -- "You're not heroes anymore" -- was kind of depressing.

It's like, Captain Marvel and Superman are the two trademark "they have to fight" heroes. Stick them together in any way, and they *have* to throwdown at some point.

And I agree that Superman spent the entire episode in "dick" mode, but after all, that was the point -- Luthor probably knew he'd be intimidated by Captain Marvel, and certainly goaded him into acting like a jerk -- which Batman helped Superman realise right at the end. But as said, Captain Marvel is partly to blame -- if he'd just trusted Superman, they would not have destroyed the city (and Luthor could've always built another generator anyway).

And what a fight. That was awesome. Beings with that much power throwing down, they *should* be causing that kind of collateral damage. It's always good to have a nice solid abandoned city to destroy.

And Atom got a bit-part! Yay!

I hope Captain Marvel comes back at some point, is all.

[Jared]

And what a fight. That was awesome. Beings with that much power throwing down, they *should* be causing that kind of collateral damage. It's always good to have a nice solid abandoned city to destroy.
.

nitpick: I remember back on Superman TAS, Supes was reluctant to fight it out with the Phantom Zone criminals on some planet, because he feared the damage a battle between them could cause. I thought that was absurd then, consideirng how many throw-downs he had with superpowerful beings just in the Metropolis area during the series.

BTW, I think that it's because of his own series, that Supes is assumed to be the leader and awe-inspiring figure, even if JL/JLU hasn't gone as far to show it. In the animated chronology, Superman was the second major hero to show up in modern times, after Batman. And Supes right away was more than an urban legend, was was quickly became famous known for people from accidents, disasters, and of coursestopping rampaging robots/monsters/etc...
All before there was a Manhunter, or GL, Captain Marvel.

When JL started, it was Superman that the government teamed with to disarm the world's nuclear arsenals. I figure he's always been *the* big name in the superhero community, as far as the public and most the heroes are conscerned.