Whatever happened to American animation?

[CDTM]

The mod might hate me for this, but I'm almost hoping this gets moved to the TV forum, cause then everyone here would still see it and follow it there maybe ^_^;

Anyways, I've been thinking a bit about how just about all the TV animations been imported lately that's not some Pixar or Disney movie.. Around the mid 90's or so, we had lots of stuff from Warner Brothers on TV, like Tiny Toons with Pinkey and the Brain, then the later fantastic Animaniacs, and more.. I think all that computer rendered stuff was US made too, right? Beast wars, some Voltron remake (Which I recall was shit, but still..)... It's really a shame the good like BW hasen't inspired more effort for some other Transformers, instead of the really crappy anime we've gotta settle for...



But yeah, what's going on? We the US basically pioneered the animation medium, and now we've just stopped trying and import EVERYTHING. Well, everything but Disney and Warner Brothers, and the pretty substandard animation on Cartoon Network that's based off of Japanese animation anyways...

[warlog]

The mod might hate me for this, but I'm almost hoping this gets moved to the TV forum, cause then everyone here would still see it and follow it there maybe ^_^;

Anyways, I've been thinking a bit about how just about all the TV animations been imported lately that's not some Pixar or Disney movie.. Around the mid 90's or so, we had lots of stuff from Warner Brothers on TV, like Tiny Toons with Pinkey and the Brain, then the later fantastic Animaniacs, and more.. I think all that computer rendered stuff was US made too, right? Beast wars, some Voltron remake (Which I recall was shit, but still..)... It's really a shame the good like BW hasen't inspired more effort for some other Transformers, instead of the really crappy anime we've gotta settle for...



But yeah, what's going on? We the US basically pioneered the animation medium, and now we've just stopped trying and import EVERYTHING. Well, everything but Disney and Warner Brothers, and the pretty substandard animation on Cartoon Network that's based off of Japanese animation anyways...Beast Wars was done by Mainframe, a canadian company.

[CDTM]

Beast Wars was done by Mainframe, a canadian company.

Ahh, thanks. ^_^

Commentary on why we don't at least import other stuff would be in line with the topic too, if you know anything about it. Be it if it's because they're just not trying to market that stuff to us or what have you...

[yeoman]

The mod might hate me for this, but I'm almost hoping this gets moved to the TV forum, cause then everyone here would still see it and follow it there maybe ^_^;

Anyways, I've been thinking a bit about how just about all the TV animations been imported lately that's not some Pixar or Disney movie.. Around the mid 90's or so, we had lots of stuff from Warner Brothers on TV, like Tiny Toons with Pinkey and the Brain, then the later fantastic Animaniacs, and more.. I think all that computer rendered stuff was US made too, right? Beast wars, some Voltron remake (Which I recall was shit, but still..)... It's really a shame the good like BW hasen't inspired more effort for some other Transformers, instead of the really crappy anime we've gotta settle for...


Far as I know Armada and Energon were both American made. Not that it stopped them from being crap.

And, really, there are good animated shows out there.

Megas XLR, Venture Bros. (Which, granted, is not family friendly), Justice League isn't as good was, but it's still good, The most recent Ninja Turtles show kicks serious ass,* and Clone Wars was better than most of the Star Wars movies could even dream of being. And then there is the late, lamented, Invader Zim. And if Samurai Jack ever comes back...

Really, even in the mid ninties you didn't have that many more great shows being on at once.



*Well, the storyline eps do, the one-off ones' tend to be much much weaker.

[yeoman]

Beast Wars was done by Mainframe, a canadian company.

But produced for American Audiences. Otherwise we'd have to classify the first season of Gargoyles as Anime.

[warlog]

But produced for American Audiences. Otherwise we'd have to classify the first season of Gargoyles as Anime.
Animation refers to the style and origin not the primary audience.

[warlog]

Far as I know Armada and Energon were both American made. Not that it stopped them from being crap.

And, really, there are good animated shows out there.

Megas XLR, Venture Bros. (Which, granted, is not family friendly), Justice League isn't as good was, but it's still good, The most recent Ninja Turtles show kicks serious ass,* and Clone Wars was better than most of the Star Wars movies could even dream of being. And then there is the late, lamented, Invader Zim. And if Samurai Jack ever comes back...

Really, even in the mid ninties you didn't have that many more great shows being on at once.



*Well, the storyline eps do, the one-off ones' tend to be much much weaker.
Armada was created from Transformers: Micron Legend and Energon from Transformer: Superlink. They aired in japan first.

[CDTM]

But produced for American Audiences. Otherwise we'd have to classify the first season of Gargoyles as Anime.

O_o So Gargoyles was made by Japan, but targeted to US viewers?

And very good points about Clone Wars, Megas, and Ventures, and Ninja Turtles. Somehow forgot about Turtles and Megas especially, and I love the latter.

Still feels like we're swamped knee deep in Japanese anime more then not though. I love certain shows as much as the next guy, but I can remember a time when Saturday morning cartoons only had Robotech....

[warlog]

Still feels like we're swamped knee deep in Japanese anime more then not though. I love certain shows as much as the next guy, but I can remember a time when Saturday morning cartoons only had Robotech....You have just defined irony.

[CDTM]

You have just defined irony.

How's that?

I meant, only had Robotech compared to all the other stuff from wherever, like Spiderman and his Amazing Friends, the Incredible Hulk, Rubix, Punky Brewster Power Hour... Not sure if Adventures of the Little Prince was made in Japan or not.

[warlog]

How's that?

I meant, only had Robotech compared to all the other stuff from wherever, like Spiderman and his Amazing Friends, the Incredible Hulk, Rubix, Punky Brewster Power Hour... Not sure if Adventures of the Little Prince was made in Japan or not.
Robotech is anime.

[warlog]

Those days are largely gone. Networks don't see the value in the Saturday morning lineup, and with cable channels becoming more and more hyper specialized i doubt they will reconsider.

[CDTM]

Robotech is anime.

Aye, that's what I was trying to get at. Robotech was one of the ONLY anime. The other stuff was either US, or maybe Canadian (I honestly don't know how much stuff I've usually classified as "US" animation may have come from England or Canada or someplace else that's not an Asian country...)

[MissKale]

O_o So Gargoyles was made by Japan, but targeted to US viewers?

And very good points about Clone Wars, Megas, and Ventures, and Ninja Turtles. Somehow forgot about Turtles and Megas especially, and I love the latter.

Still feels like we're swamped knee deep in Japanese anime more then not though. I love certain shows as much as the next guy, but I can remember a time when Saturday morning cartoons only had Robotech....

Gargoyles was made by Disney. It was written in the US, and the animation was done overseas, in the same way the Batman animated, and Justice League are.

I think that was primarily done for production cost reasons more than anything else.

I'm just waiting for Buzz Dixon or Scott Shaw!, or one of the other US animation gurus on this site to turn up.

[CDTM]

Gargoyles was made by Disney. It was written in the US, and the animation was done overseas, in the same way the Batman animated, and Justice League are.

I think that was primarily done for production cost reasons more than anything else.

I'm just waiting for Buzz Dixon or Scott Shaw!, or one of the other US animation gurus on this site to turn up.

Just to get this straight, I've always been under the impression Warner Brothers had their own in house animators for stuff like Justice League or Tiny Toon Adventures.

But all this time, they've been using Japanese animation studios?

[CrossoverManiac]

Back during the 90's, they had some kick ass shows. Batman: TAS, X-Men, Gargoyles, Exo-Squad, Ren and Stimpy, Eek the Cat, Spider-Man. Now, it's all crap unless it's on Adult Swim.

[Matt]

Robotech is anime.

No, Macross is anime.
Robotech is an unholy abomination of anime.

[Dr. Banner]

Gargoyles was made by Disney. It was written in the US, and the animation was done overseas, in the same way the Batman animated, and Justice League are.


Farming out the animations is done because of the bottom line, yes.

To make matters worse with Gargoyles, the final (and worst) season was farmed out to Nelvana in Canada. They couldn't keep up with the workload, so, they in turn farmed much of the work overseas and the quality just kept getting worse and worse. It was a horrible domino effect of animation farming.

To make matters worse, the opening sequence used...that's right...a photoshop lense filter. You just don't do that. :D

[CDTM]

Farming out the animations is done because of the bottom line, yes.

To make matters worse with Gargoyles, the final (and worst) season was farmed out to Nelvana in Canada. They couldn't keep up with the workload, so, they in turn farmed much of the work overseas and the quality just kept getting worse and worse. It was a horrible domino effect of animation farming.

To make matters worse, the opening sequence used...that's right...a photoshop lense filter. You just don't do that. :D

Does both Disney and Warner do this all the time, even in movies?

Does this make the long standing arguments of "US animation vs Japanese animation" even relevent then, if they just farm out to other company's?

[Urusai Wrangler]

Just to get this straight, I've always been under the impression Warner Brothers had their own in house animators for stuff like Justice League or Tiny Toon Adventures.

But all this time, they've been using Japanese animation studios?

Actually, Korean animation houses are used a lot more often. Keyframe animation/animatics are done domestically, and then those are shipped overseas to Asian animation houses (including Japan, yes). This has actually been a common practice for well over a decade. Remember Invader Zim? Animated in Korea.

Disney and Warner Brothers no longer have traditional feature film animation divisions; Warner shut theirs down after Osmosis Jones tanked, and Disney made the decision to close theirs after Treasure Planet bombed. They finished Home on the Range afterwards, and that was the last traditionally animated film they produced. Titan AE was the film that shut down Fox's studio.

In a related note, as far as I know, Don Bluth Studios is the only domestic feature-film animation house still doing things by hand, but last I heard, his Dragon's Lair feature film was mired in preproduction as nobody's been willing to invest in the project.

[Augusto]

The very american GI Joe, where was made?

[Mike Pothier]

I was under the impression that all the actual animation is done overseas, for several years now. I mean, The Simpsons is as American as animation gets, and i know THAT is done overseas.

[the goddamn batman]

Again, as is stated upthread: Keyframe animation/animatics are done domestically, and then those are shipped overseas to Asian animation houses. This has been done since at least the 90's.

[the goddamn batman]

Does this make the long standing arguments of "US animation vs Japanese animation" even relevent then, if they just farm out to other company's?

Yes it does. The style of the drawings has nothing to do with where the majority of the animation was done.

[ultramandingo]

....... the best non "astro base go" type us of a cartoon - ing

http://widget.slide.com/rdr/1/1/3/W/170000000d06ac17/1/73/IJhxKeT_uD8x_hUAtDosQi91NWaWjfKa.jpg (http://www.slide.com/s/QpchYPoP6j_PpEXIGk6DzR_HoB9mW6ZW?referrer=hlnk)

- plus that talking gecko craks me up

[the goddamn batman]

And that's just jacking Rian Hughes. (also, kinda Shag as well)

[ultramandingo]

And that's just jacking Rian Hughes. (also, kinda Shag as well)

.........plus Genndy Tartakovsky and Craig McCracken

[Johnny_Luck]

Still feels like we're swamped knee deep in Japanese anime more then not though. I love certain shows as much as the next guy, but I can remember a time when Saturday morning cartoons only had Robotech....

The problem is it is cheaper for american tv companies to import anime from overseas and dub it or change it as little as possible and then air it, rather than coming up with their own ideas, using original us created product, etc.

Not to mention that so many teenagers and kids are into Manga and anime nowadays that even if good old fashions designs with american voice actors wouldn't last which is said.

we are either going to be stuck with over the top stretched out Japanese style cartoons of cgi movies nowadays. I don't think we'll even really see cartoons with characters that look human and like we grew up with, the good stuff.

Basically it boils down to that stuff sells nowadays and the days of the good natural designs we grew up with will soon be forgotten.

[the goddamn batman]

.........plus Genndy Tartakovsky and Craig McCracken

It's that flat vector/cut out style sure, but those ads actually look like Hughes or Shag drew them. Hughes gets asked if he did them all the time.

They don't stike me as looking like Genndy actually did them. Hughes? yes.

[Sean Whitmore]

http://www.shortpacked.com/comics/20080618animebugs.png


SEAN

[The Xenos]

Again, as is stated upthread: Keyframe animation/animatics are done domestically, and then those are shipped overseas to Asian animation houses. This has been done since at least the 90's.

Both Japanese anime and American animation gets shipped overseas for the in between stuff. Some of those countries are starting to do animation production. Korea used to be more for inbetween, but they're producing some of their own stuff. Still, I count the country of origin as where the cartoon was produced, directed, designed, etc. Batman TAS was somewhat produced in Japan, aside from the more in between stuff, but the creative control was all from America.


Yes it does. The style of the drawings has nothing to do with where the majority of the animation was done.

Yup. That's a key thing. Actually, yeah, design and key animation is some of the terminology.

....... the best non "astro base go" type us of a cartoon - ing

e-surance image (http://www.slide.com/s/QpchYPoP6j_PpEXIGk6DzR_HoB9mW6ZW?referrer=hlnk)

- plus that talking gecko craks me up

You think some of the best US animation, aside from Venture Bros.. is a car insurance ad. That's pretty damn sad. Plus the gecko is realistic CGI and not really animation.

[DWEarhart]

No love for American Pop? In my opinion, no one's been able to Ralph Bakshi. Some have come close.

[Johnny_Luck]

http://www.shortpacked.com/comics/20080618animebugs.png


SEAN

already posted how ridiculous it is to post this compared what people who have the problems are actually saying and how it makes it very clear you have not read or if you have read cannot comprehend what is said about the problems with animation today.

[the goddamn batman]

Both Japanese anime and American animation gets shipped overseas for the in between stuff. Some of those countries are starting to do animation production. Korea used to be more for inbetween, but they're producing some of their own stuff. Still, I count the country of origin as where the cartoon was produced, directed, designed, etc. Batman TAS was somewhat produced in Japan, aside from the more in between stuff, but the creative control was all from America.

Yup. That's a key thing. Actually, yeah, design and key animation is some of the terminology.


I'm not sure if you're agreing with me or arguing with me...:confused:

[Sean Whitmore]

already posted how ridiculous it is to post this compared what people who have the problems are actually saying and how it makes it very clear you have not read or if you have read cannot comprehend what is said about the problems with animation today.

You are correct about one thing:

I can't understand a word you just said.


SEAN

[Johnny_Luck]

wow, then maybe it is impssoible to spell it out to people like you.

That little cartoon shows your ignorance to the subject.

The cartoon tries to make fun us and fails big time because it shows that you clearly don't understand our problems and complaints about how crappy things in animation work nowadays.

[the goddamn batman]

Oh man... this is better than tv!

[Sean Whitmore]

Oh man... this is better than tv!

American TV or Japanese crap?


SEAN

[pariah-1972]

Why don't they show Bugs Bunny on tv anymore? god i miss those shows:frown:

Also Wot about the new Spider-man cartoon is that sort of anime-ish inspired or not ? i can't really tell .
It seems like Japan is beating us on a lot of things and i fully expect them to take over the world someday.

[Ontir]

For some reason Waner Bros. can't figure out that between "Looney Tunes," Hannah-Barbera, and DC they need never go to outside sources for animated entertainment. I can't imagine why. The combined re-runs of these three sources could, played in order, entertain several generations without replaying an episode.

[StoneGold]

already posted how ridiculous it is to post this compared what people who have the problems are actually saying and how it makes it very clear you have not read or if you have read cannot comprehend what is said about the problems with animation today.

I can't comprehend this sentence. Periods. Are. Your. Friends.

[Johnny_Luck]

I can't comprehend this sentence. Periods. Are. Your. Friends.

wow, sorry that you cannot understand the use of the words and as well as or. Though seeing as how I kinda explained it already for the other one who has trouble reading, instead of using unneeded things I'll just quote, what I did to make it simple for your mind.





That little cartoon shows your ignorance to the subject.

The cartoon tries to make fun of us and fails big time because it shows that you clearly don't understand our problems and complaints about how crappy things in animation work nowadays.

[StoneGold]

wow, sorry that you cannot understand the use of the words and and or. Though seeing as how I kinda explained it already for the other one who has trouble reading, instead of using unneeded things I just quote, what I did to make it simple for your mind.

Yes, you're right, it's my fault you write at a level a fourth grader would scoff at. Periods are unnecessary things. Run on sentences rock!

[Johnny_Luck]

Yes, you're right, it's my fault you write at a level a fourth grader would scoff at. Periods are unnecessary things. Run on sentences rock!

Insult not needed, like at all.

However I'm sorry that I don't follow you and your other grammar nazi's who decided that because they cannot read unless everything is perfect they need to comment. My bad. From now on I will get that your brain cannot understand something very simple most others can unless it is 100 perfect by your standards.

at the end of the day Its a message board not a novel or a prize winning essay as long as its possible to understand, which that was grammar doesn't need to be 100 percent correct. You don't have to be an ass for the sake of it, rather than trying to actually you know continue and contribute to the conversation.

that being said before this thread gets closed too, lets get back on topic.

[the goddamn batman]

As much as his insults aren't necessary...


at the end of the day Its a message board not a novel or a prize winning essay as long as its possible to understand

Therein lies the problem.

See, it's not about Nazi's; (which, by the by was an insult too. :wink: ) it's about being able to read it. People, and I'd hope ESPECIALLY comic fans are used to proper punctuation. It's used for a reason. If you want people to understand the points you're making, try properly stating them.:smile:

[Astonishing X-Fan]

The problem, Johnny, is that you immediately dismiss anything anime or anything with a simpler style as "crap".

Just because something isn't drawn "realistically" doesn't make it bad art.

And the simple fact of the matter is, the more detailed the artwork is, the worse it's going to look in motion, unless you have a large budget behind your project. These aren't comic books or paintings, these need to look good while MOVING. They need to flow. They need to ANIMATE well.

I don't blame creators for turning to streamlined designs that will flow better and show less flaws in motion. Especially in action shows, where movement is a very big deal.

[the goddamn batman]

This thread amounts to a bunch of grown men complaininng that childrens cartoons don't appeal to them anymore.

And in doing so, have rallied against the only country producing cartoons for the demographic they actually exist in.

Dumb.

[bushboy]

This thread amounts to a bunch of grown men complaininng that childrens cartoons don't appeal to them anymore.

And in doing so, have rallied against the only country producing cartoons for the demographic they actually exist in.

Dumb.
Psst. You're not supposed to point out the truth on message boards.:rolleyes:

[The Xenos]

Also Wot about the new Spider-man cartoon is that sort of anime-ish inspired or not ? i can't really tell .
It seems like Japan is beating us on a lot of things and i fully expect them to take over the world someday.
Someday?

Though kidding aside, I really don't see how the new Spider-man toon looks like anime. It looks quite American to me. Geez. Make characters a little more angular than Bruce Timm and suddenly they're anime. Anime is from Japan. American toons, influenced or not by anime, are made in America. Totally different companies and creators are involved. Is Teen Titans anime just due to influence? Is Big O not anime because of the Timm influence? No.


already posted how ridiculous it is to post this compared what people who have the problems are actually saying and how it makes it very clear you have not read or if you have read cannot comprehend what is said about the problems with animation today.
Did you get that from the subtitles of a Hong King bootleg anime DVD?

Also, it's Shortpacked. They usually make some pretty good points. If you think a "little cartoon" is irrelevant to arguments, what are you doing in a thread about cartoons? Cartoons are totally a way to bring up points in arguments. I think this one made a good point. People often complain about anime without actually knowing what anime is.


I can't comprehend this sentence. Periods. Are. Your. Friends.
your friend at the end (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2002/10/11/)


I'm not sure if you're agreing with me or arguing with me...:confused:
Agreeing, with a side of extra nitpicky details.

[Ontir]

wow, sorry that you cannot understand the use of the words and as well as or. Though seeing as how I kinda explained it already for the other one who has trouble reading, instead of using unneeded things I'll just quote, what I did to make it simple for your mind.

Stone is right, your posts are a friggin' mess! "or." You really end a sentence with a conjunction? Your second "sentence" just goes in circles telling us your not going to tell us something, which is good, because you don't.

[MegaRaptor Scribe]

Armada was created from Transformers: Micron Legend and Energon from Transformer: Superlink. They aired in japan first.

No,Armada aired in the US first, which is why the US version got incomplete animation and a rushed production schedule.

They were MADE in Japan, by Japanese creators.

As for SL and Energon, the two series ran just about concurrently.

[G. Wayne]

Back during the 90's, they had some kick ass shows. ... Now, it's all crap that's on Adult Swim.

Fixed it for you. :biggrin:

[pariah-1972]

Xenos all i was saying was that it's getting harder to tell if something is even inspired by anime or not.

I think there is a small anime influence on the new Spider-man cartoon just cause he has huge eyes.

But i'm not an expert like you.:tongue:

[The Xenos]

Well, the huge eyes sterotype in anime comes from Tezuka emulating Disney anyway, so it's a snake of sterotypes eating its own tail.

[Pinball]

Dang, Xenos beat me to it, the point (of the Shortpacked strip) that anime ripped off Disney in the first place.

And, y'know, i understood Johnny Luck just fine, he's saying "STUPID!! YOU'RE SO STUPID!!!"

[ChrisIII]

There are some anime that utilizes more realistic character designs than your usual big eyes/small nose/triangle mouth. Take this screenshot from Macross Plus (A spin-off of Macross, the show that was made into part of Robotech)

http://www.concretebadger.net/images/blog/one-off-reviews/macross-plus3.jpg


Although it's still recognizably anime-style in a sense, it doesn't fall into the typical stereotypes.


I think the bigger problem people-especially critics-have with anime is the animation quality. Specifically, the way the characters move-or don't move, rather, being static with only their mouths moving (and even the mouths are sort of loosely animated-from what I understand that's because they do the voice acting afterwards, instead of before). Animation World Magazine has an interesting critique of anime from the POVs of American animation experts and some anime experts (Although it's ten years out of date!):


http://www.awn.com/mag/issue5.09/5.09pages/osmondanime.php3


My own opinion is that the characters fall by the wayside so that scenes where movement is key-in particular, action scenes-can utilize more frames. Sure, some anime has some rather dissiapointing action-take for example the infamous moving background stereotype-but some others such as Evangelion and various OAVs and movies are *very* fluid and dynamic in their action. So characters moving around with the exception of their mouths has to be sacrificed a little. Some see this as a betrayal of the animation genre, I see it as effective considering that most anime are low-budget anyway (Even the Miyizaki films, from my understanding, rarely exceed $20 million in budget).




It seems that with the demise of cell-animated movies in America and more and more CG, that a better understanding and appreciation of Japanese animation has developed among American animators/critics , especially with imaginitive and artistic films like Paprika and Teknokreet (as well as various Miyazaki projects) coming out and getting theatrical play as oppossed to the pokemon/Digimon/Yugioh stuff that came out earlier in the century.


Also, the fact that Lasseter is a vocal champion of Miyazaki doesn't hurt either....

[Augusto]

Well, the huge eyes sterotype in anime comes from Tezuka emulating Disney anyway, so it's a snake of sterotypes eating its own tail.


Dang, Xenos beat me to it, the point (of the Shortpacked strip) that anime ripped off Disney in the first place.

So.....ummmhhh.....after a long journey around the world, and in a twist of the destiny, America is going back to the seeds planted by Walt Disney. It is Disney's legacy.

[Wenatchee the Hatchet]

I think that beyond just anime that stuff like the Triplets of Belleville and Persepolis can get nominated for best animated film is a sign that foreign animation is starting to get more appreciation. We could see this as the glass being half empty because cartoons we saw made in the U.S. aren't around but Thundercats and The Smurfs and Rubik the Amazing Cube aren't all as great as some of the stuff that has come since. Instead of looking at this scene as the demise of American animation what if it's a case of other countries getting to the level we used to be at (or still are at, but have only been at in the best cases)?

I mean, I have nostalgic love for Roger Ramjet but that doesn't mean I'd think the show is really better-written than Teen Titans if I saw it again today.