Understanding the relationship between Pre-CRISIS and Post-CRISIS cosmologies?

[Buried Alien]

What is the exact nature of the relationship between the Pre-CRISIS and Post-CRISIS DC cosmologies?

Do we consider the Post-CRISIS universe what the Pre-CRISIS multiverse was transformed into as a result of the Crisis?

Or, is the Post-CRISIS universe actually an entirely separate entity from the Pre-CRISIS multiverse (which still exists in some form)...and our attention was simply shifted away from the Pre-CRISIS multiverse to the Post-CRISIS universe after the Crisis?


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Forefinger]

I'd go with the one that since 1985, we have been paying attention to one particular universe, out of the multiverse. And I guess it's anti-matter equivalent. The JLA/Avengers showed that there are other universes, so it indeed must be a multiverse. The pre-Crisis universe is probably out there somewhere.

[DDM]

I'd go with the one that since 1985, we have been paying attention to one particular universe, out of the multiverse. And I guess it's anti-matter equivalent. The JLA/Avengers showed that there are other universes, so it indeed must be a multiverse. The pre-Crisis universe is probably out there somewhere.

Other alien dimensions exist such as Dream, the Land of the Fairy, Azarath, Gemworld, etc al, but the multiverse no longer exists. For instance, the Golden Age Superman was confused because he witnessed elements of Earth-1 & Earth-2 existed on the new reformed Earth, but he assumed he was on Earth-1 anyway. The Golden Age Flash & Kid Flash used Barry's cosmic treadmill to bridge to the dimensions in Crisis On Infinite Earth #11 shows that Earth-2 no longer exists. The single matter universe & the anti-matter universe exists.

[bones]

Other alien dimensions exist such as Dream, the Land of the Fairy, Azarath, Gemworld, etc al, but the multiverse no longer exists. For instance, the Golden Age Superman was confused because he witnessed elements of Earth-1 & Earth-2 existed on the new reformed Earth, but he assumed he was on Earth-1 anyway. The Golden Age Flash & Kid Flash used Barry's cosmic treadmill to bridge to the dimensions in Crisis On Infinite Earth #11 shows that Earth-2 no longer exists. The single matter universe & the anti-matter universe exists.
till the next rewrite..retcon...

[SUPERECWFAN1]

This Is a hard one. But I'm always reminded of Marv Wolfman's explanation. After Crisis no one was supposed to remember It and everything would begin with a clean slate.

Except some DC Editors didn't like that. In fact they felt this was too big a change and hurt existing charactors. In a sense they were partly right.


Some a wierd line was drawn up. Some of the Pre-Crisis stuff actually happened. In Batman he had a young Robin named Jason Todd. He wasn't Dick Grayson who had grew up and was Nightwing. So DC went back to the drawing board and Introduced Todd again In a new Origin that made even more fans at the time gnaw thier teeth at him.


It was told that Grayson had quit being Robin and wanted out of Batman's shadow after years as his 1st Robin. So a lotta Pre-Crisis happened there.

But Todd's 1st origin didn't. Thats why they revamped It. Plus they revamped Catwoman as well Post Crisis.

In Superman they had Bryne bring him up to speed pretty quick after his Re-Introduction In Man of Steel. Bryne had wanted a Superman still learning on the job. DC nixed that and wanted thier Icon back as Veteron Hero he once was.

Most of Superman's Pre-Crisis was tossed and this revamp worked out very well.

Hawkman was a hero hurt most by this. It seems his origin was changed countless times. Hawkworld didn't help things eithor. By the mid 1990's It was hard to really see what Hawkman was. One moment he was connected to the Pre-Crisis Hawkman , the next he wasn't.

So DC tried saying he was all versions of a great HAWK GOD. That due to Crisis after effects he was part responsible for I suppose , different Hawkman were bleeding Into the DCU at times. Wierd....then he became One Hawkman and that lasted awhile.

I like DC's explanation now that he's a reincarnated Hawkman thru the years and Is back yet again. Least It works better than what Zero Hour did.


But ya see here. There at times was no differance between Pre-Crisis and Post-Crisis. DC Editors and writers used what elements they wanted and said that ...this happened. And this didn't.

Confusing to say the least.

[hangmanjury]

Other alien dimensions exist such as Dream, the Land of the Fairy, Azarath, Gemworld, etc al, but the multiverse no longer exists. For instance, the Golden Age Superman was confused because he witnessed elements of Earth-1 & Earth-2 existed on the new reformed Earth, but he assumed he was on Earth-1 anyway. The Golden Age Flash & Kid Flash used Barry's cosmic treadmill to bridge to the dimensions in Crisis On Infinite Earth #11 shows that Earth-2 no longer exists. The single matter universe & the anti-matter universe exists.
The Dreaming, Faerie, and to some extent, Gemworld, aren't alien dimensions. They're more states of mind.

[glennsim]

As discussed in the "what changed because of Crisis" thread, the original Multiverse was the result of Krona trying to view the beginning of time. As a result, what was a single universe became a multiverse. As a result of Crisis, all of those were collapsed into one universe again.

None of which addresses the concept that alternate timelines can exist, which have many of the same qualities as the Multiverse, but the separation is for a different reason.

The implication is that we're still reading about the universe that resulted from the collapse of the Multiverse. But, meanwhile, theoretically, there are alternate timelines where a) Krona never split the single universe into a Multiverse b) the Multiverse was never collapsed back into a single universe and c) all of that happened, but other events made them diverge.

[Gingold]

This Is a hard one. But I'm always reminded of Marv Wolfman's explanation. After Crisis no one was supposed to remember It and everything would begin with a clean slate.

Except some DC Editors didn't like that. In fact they felt this was too big a change and hurt existing charactors. In a sense they were partly right.



You know, I don't recall Marv attempting to reboot his own corner of the DCU (the Titans) back to square one following the Crisis either. Maybe he didn't because nobody else did?

[DDM]

You know, I don't recall Marv attempting to reboot his own corner of the DCU (the Titans) back to square one following the Crisis either. Maybe he didn't because nobody else did?

Wolfman had to rewrite Donna Troy's origin since Wonder Woman did not exist until recently. "Who is Wonder Girl" linked Donna Troy to the Titans of Myth rather than the Greek gods & Wonder Woman's history. Wolfman & Perez remade Wonder Girl into Troia.

[Jason H]

I've been reading DC comics off and on since before Crisis on Infinite Earths and I've always considered the current DC universe to be the post crisis merged world with some tweaking here and there, not a totally different Universe. Whether that's right or not I don't know (Does anybody?)

[Paradox]

**shrugs** With Hypertime, it's all true.

[Shellhead]

From what I've heard, Busiek's current JLA storyline ties into JLA/Avengers, which mean there is still a Multiverse. Krona was stomping around across the dimensions, destroying alternate realities.

There was a major storyline in Swamp Thing during the Crisis, called American Gothic. The evil cult driving that storyline anticipated the Crisis, and used it as an opportunity to unleash a vast, primordial evil, in an attempt to destroy Heaven. The actual release of the evil happens post-Crisis, but several supernatural characters, including John Constantine, knew this was going to happen even before the Crisis started. In the big battle in the Afterlife, the supernatural characters still remembered the Crisis and referred to it several times. Their memories of the Crisis may have since faded.

[Kevin Street]

What is the exact nature of the relationship between the Pre-CRISIS and Post-CRISIS DC cosmologies?

Do we consider the Post-CRISIS universe what the Pre-CRISIS multiverse was transformed into as a result of the Crisis?

Or, is the Post-CRISIS universe actually an entirely separate entity from the Pre-CRISIS multiverse (which still exists in some form)...and our attention was simply shifted away from the Pre-CRISIS multiverse to the Post-CRISIS universe after the Crisis?

I'd say the evidence is pretty definite for your first option.

As discussed in the "what changed because of Crisis" thread, the original Multiverse was the result of Krona trying to view the beginning of time. As a result, what was a single universe became a multiverse. As a result of Crisis, all of those were collapsed into one universe again.

Exactly. There have always been parallel dimensions and alternate universes, like the DCU and the Marvel universe. The Infinite Earths were a subset of this larger group, all of them linked together by their common origin with Krona. (Maybe that's why it was so comparatively easy to travel from Earth 1 to Earth 2 and back again - they were always parts of a sundered whole.) The Crisis removed that origin and "collapsed" the Infinite Earths back together again. (So to speak.) But the single Sigma DCU universe is still part a larger cosmological "multiverse" with many alternate dimensions. It's just a lot harder to get to them.

Hypertime just adds an extra feature to these universes, but it doesn't change the basic structure of the whole. And they seem to have abandoned hypertime now.

[LukeRed5]

Instead of Crisis, I wonder why DC didn't just do what the Ultimate universe has done and start from scratch?

[Jason H]

Instead of Crisis, I wonder why DC didn't just do what the Ultimate universe has done and start from scratch?

I think it was because at the time of Crisis, DC had 50 years of comic history/continuity that I'm sure they didn't want to just sweep under the rug and say never happened.

[DDM]

Instead of Crisis, I wonder why DC didn't just do what the Ultimate universe has done and start from scratch?

The people reading the DC books then would question DC why they started everything over from scratch. Crisis on Infinite Earths simply removed the multiverse from the DC canon.

[glennsim]

The people reading the DC books then would question DC why they started everything over from scratch. Crisis on Infinite Earths simply removed the multiverse from the DC canon.


In addition, you had series like New Teen Titans that were big-time hot sellers at the time. But if they had rebooted the DCU, that would have effectively cancelled the series. At best, they could have brought it back after a few years with the young Robin, Kid Flash, etc., but it wouldn't have been the same book.

[DDM]

In addition, you had series like New Teen Titans that were big-time hot sellers at the time. But if they had rebooted the DCU, that would have effectively cancelled the series. At best, they could have brought it back after a few years with the young Robin, Kid Flash, etc., but it wouldn't have been the same book.

Alan Moore was writing Swamp Thing at this time too. Cancelling the book outright may have made Moore mad enough to leave the series. True, The New Teen Titans would not be the same book either if it were rebooted since this was the classic Marvel Wolfman & George Perez stories.

[glennsim]

Alan Moore was writing Swamp Thing at this time too. Cancelling the book outright may have made Moore mad enough to leave the series. True, The New Teen Titans would not be the same book either if it were rebooted since this was the classic Marvel Wolfman & George Perez stories.

More importantly, would the readers who were digging young adults Raven, Cyborg, and Starfire still be interested in reading about 13-year-old Aqualad, Speedy, and Wonder Girl?

[bfrank]

the multi verse still exisits thanks to hyper time...all those elseworlds stories as well as kingdom come had to take place some where...

my take on the current universe is this...we are looking at the world that exisited at the end of crisis, we now know the back story of not only this current world (the one that made it's debut at the start of COIE #11), but the worlds that exisited before...

Meaning pre crisis happened as it happened multiple worlds and all that, until COIE #10 when they fought the anti monitor at the begining of time....I believe that all of those present at that battle have the potential to remember the pre crisis worlds...I use the Kingdom, Planet Krypton, Superman/Batman and JSA as evidence for my theory....