Starman/Nightwing (Robinson/Graysom) inquiry about rape

[Static-Pulse]

Did Jack's rape at the hands of Mist II get as much flack/complaining as Nightwing's rape by Tarantula II? I've seen a good bit (and been a part of my fair share) of complaining/grousing comments about Nightwing being raped, but being a latecomer to Starman (just read the series this year), I've missed a lot of the conversations about Jack around that time.

Does anyone anyone remembers if James Robinson took as much heat over the rape as Devin Grayson has?

(I also hope this is the appropriate forum, being Starman/Nightwing, I kind of split the difference and assumed it was general enough to to be a Batman or JSA post.)

[Paradox]

Nope. People just took it for the plot point it was. Starman was always a bit more of a mature book than most, without pushing the line to needing a label. People are probably more freaked out that it happened to their precious "child friendly" ex-Robin than it happening in the first place.

It may have been handled poorly with Nightwing, though. I have no idea, not being a Nightwing reader. With Jack, it was just more of the Mist being EEEEEEVIL!

[Loren]

Does anyone anyone remembers if James Robinson took as much heat over the rape as Devin Grayson has?

Well, the rape in Starman did take place back in 1996, and I think most online fandom was still limited to Usenet at the time. These boards were just Jonah's Kingdom Come board at the time.

From my understanding of the events in Nightwing, there are some differences too. The Mist was a villain, had always been a villain, and she drugged Jack and raped him in his sleep. The event itself wasn't shown, but was stated by Mist after the fact. (Plus, down the line, that event proved to be fairly important to the Starman saga that Robinson was building.)

In "Nightwing," Tarantula was practically Nightwing's sidekick at the time of the rape. They fight (and kill) Blockbuster, and then go home where Tarantula rapes Nightwing. And then in the next issue, they're still a crimefighting duo. It didn't seem to phase Nightwing much. And it didn't help that Devin had broken up Dick and Barbara, only to have him get involved with a psycho vigilante who proceeded to rape him.

Loren

[LooksBetterDrawn]

I think it got so much flack because it was completly out-of-character for Nightwing and inappropriate at the time for Turantula to just do that seemingly out of nowhere. It was just another time Devin alienated the core Nightwing fans.

[LooksBetterDrawn]

sorry, double posted

[Matches Malone]

The Mist's rape of Starman made sense. It was a well-told story where a bad thing happened.

The Nightwing/ Tarantula thing did not make any sense at all. It was the climax (pun unintended) of a poorly written story. Add in the writer's continuous creepy sexual references to Nightwing in pretty much every interview she gives, and the disparate reactions make sense.

[Static-Pulse]

Thanks for the replies, especially Loren. I'd not considered that most of these conversations were on Usenet, I can try Googling that. Thank you.

The differences too -- Mist being a villain versus Tarantula being the sidekick, specifically -- was something else I missed when asking about it, I was just thinking of each scene as a sterile, self-contained vulgarity and nothing else. I appreciate the answers. Thanks!

[Dr. Hfuhruhurr]

Just to add my two cents, there was not much "outrage" about Mist's rape of Jack at the time, although there were some comments about whether or not Starman should be placed in the Vertigo line if it was going to deal with mature subject matter like that. But I don't think the two situations are comparable. As many have said, Nash was evil and, my impression at the time was that it was a wonderfully wicked idea: instead of kryptonite, Jack's weakness against Nash would be that she was the mother of his child. I'm not sure that it played out as well as I would have liked, but that was probably due to the fact that Starman was a "limited" series. Had it kept going, I think Kyle Theo would have provided grounds for many good stories.

I didn't read the Nightwing/Tarantula scene, but after reading about it, I don't feel like I've missed anything.

[Matt Algren]

I didn't read the Nightwing/Tarantula scene, but after reading about it, I don't feel like I've missed anything.You haven't.

Just to touch on something no one's mentioned, a part of the problem for me was that DC couldn't decide if Dick had been raped or not. Devin stated it outright in an online chat, but then there was no mention of it in the book. From what I understand, it still hasn't been mentioned. Then (apparently) DC decided it didn't like the R word, so she and they started hairsplitting, settling on "nonconsensual sex". (IIRC, Devin stopped an interviewer when he/she said the R word.) This was, of course, never mentioned in the book either, just in interviews.

I'm still trying to figure out the difference. But that's a whole other can of worms. Or a dead horse, depending on who you ask.

[dancj]

I'm still trying to figure out the difference. But that's a whole other can of worms. Or a dead horse, depending on who you ask.

I'd say they're on dangerous gorund if they suggest there IS a difference

[Bat-Mite]

I'm still trying to figure out the difference. But that's a whole other can of worms.

There is not a difference in the sense that someone got raped, and that's obviously not a nice thing.

What makes the Starman rape less deserving of flak is that it is not retarded. Mist captured Starman and drugged him, like it has been mentioned here before. Tarantula just sat on Nightwing's lap and starting dancing the horizontal mambo while Nightwing just stood there crying, instead of punching her in the neck and throwing her out of the window, which he is very much capable of.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I don't think Dick Grayson really cared he had been having sex with a nutcase. And he really didn't give her permission. Grayson also had something with Huntress awhile back.

The story got overdone really. It served to deliver a bigger storyline as Grayson had his own " Fall From Grace " period and Is slowly trying to find redemption on his way back. It works for me. Sadly most didn't see It that way.


But I do like Grayson's Nightwing. Dixon Intrdouced elements to the charactor , but his run seemed to never go anywhere.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I don't generally read Nightwing, although I did enjoy the hell outta Dixon & McDaniels stuff, but I did check out the first issue of Devin Grayson's first issue with Andre Parks & Phil Hester and I am at a loss to figure out how she's still the writer of this book if this is the quality of her writing.

I mean, I'm willing to suspend my disbelief as much as the next guy when it comes to superhero comics, but I draw the line at having Nightwing be able to successfully join the mafia as an enforcer who won't kill or hurt women, children or "capes" and whose last job was police officer.

How on Earth did an idea that poorly thought-out end up in print?

Now, I'm hearing this about Nightwing being raped and I just throw up my hands. Does Nightwing sell well or something?

[Expletive Deleted]

Now, I'm hearing this about Nightwing being raped and I just throw up my hands. Does Nightwing sell well or something?Pretty well, yeah. For most of Grayson's run, it's been rock solid at around 30k.

Here (http://www.comicon.com/cgi-bin/pulse.cgi?http%3A//www.comicon.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi%3Fubb%3Dget_topic%26f%3D36%26t%3D00 3710) is a link to the current analysis of the ICV2 numbers, but keep in mind that the last few months are a bit skewed thanks to "War Games" and Dixon's storyline. If you look at some of the older lists, there's been very little fluctuation.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I don't generally read Nightwing, although I did enjoy the hell outta Dixon & McDaniels stuff, but I did check out the first issue of Devin Grayson's first issue with Andre Parks & Phil Hester and I am at a loss to figure out how she's still the writer of this book if this is the quality of her writing.

I mean, I'm willing to suspend my disbelief as much as the next guy when it comes to superhero comics, but I draw the line at having Nightwing be able to successfully join the mafia as an enforcer who won't kill or hurt women, children or "capes" and whose last job was police officer.

How on Earth did an idea that poorly thought-out end up in print?

Now, I'm hearing this about Nightwing being raped and I just throw up my hands. Does Nightwing sell well or something?


I think Its the fact that he's an Enforcer and he beats people down while on crutches that has made him special to his Mob Boss. He's undercover , recovering from his bad leg. He's pretty much told them how he'll beat people up and get thier money. But he won't kill and It only helps him that he was a former cop. ( They'll think he has connections to helpin em. )

[18-Till-I-Die]

Starman, Nightwing, Sue Dimby...

:confused:

Anyone ELSE get raped i should know about!? God! Is this where comics have gone, every week it's a race to see who gets raped next...ugh.

I'm gonna go stare at my Jim Lee art.

[bannermanonemillion]

There's an awesom fanfic that deals with this specfically called "Court Martial" on the www.fanfiction.net website.

It's a long one (20 chapters so far) but man is it worth it. It plays out a lot more realistically than it did in the comics. There's a little language (most of it comes from Arsenal, natch) but like I said, it's worth it.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I think Its the fact that he's an Enforcer and he beats people down while on crutches that has made him special to his Mob Boss. He's undercover , recovering from his bad leg. He's pretty much told them how he'll beat people up and get thier money. But he won't kill and It only helps him that he was a former cop. ( They'll think he has connections to helpin em. )

I'm sorry, but no one in organized crime with even half a functioning brain is going to let someone into their family who claims he's no longer a cop but won't kill. And an enforcer who won't touch women or children stretches crediblility even further.

[Sir Tim Drake]

Starman, Nightwing, Sue Dimby...

:confused:

Anyone ELSE get raped i should know about!? God! Is this where comics have gone, every week it's a race to see who gets raped next...ugh.

I'm gonna go stare at my Jim Lee art.

This same pattern (where a female villain rapes a superhero and bears his child) has also happened to Nexus, Tom Strong on two different occasions, and Swamp Thing.

I'm not kidding about that last one. See Swamp Thing #60.

[Mia]

I had a list of sales figures covering the last run of Dixon's run and the sales averaged around 35K per month. They dropped after Devin Grayson took over about 6 thousand issues per month.

03/ 2004: Nightwing #91 -- 29,330 (+ 2.2%)
04/ 2004: Nightwing #92 -- 29,555 (+ 0.8%)
05/ 2004: Nightwing #93 -- 30,816 (+ 4.3%)
06/ 2004: Nightwing #94 -- 30,155 (- 2.2%)
07/ 2004: Nightwing #95 -- 30,392 (+ 0.8%)
08/ 2004: Nightwing #96 -- 44,558 (+46.6%) -- [47,479]
09/ 2004: Nightwing #97 -- 44,038 (- 1.2%) -- [44,961]
10/ 2004: Nightwing #98 -- 43,618 (- 1.0%)
11/ 2004: Nightwing #99 -- 33,708 (-22.7%)
12/ 2004: Nightwing #100 -- 40,022 (+18.7%)
01/ 2005: Nightwing #101 -- 38,098 (- 4.8%) -- [41,243]
01/ 2005: Nightwing #102 -- 36,093 (- 5.3%) -- [40,271]
02/ 2005: Nightwing #103 -- 36,921 (+ 2.3%)
02/ 2005: Nightwing #104 -- 36,411 (- 1.4%)
03/ 2005: Nightwing #105 -- 38,958 (+ 7.0%)
03/ 2005: Nightwing #106 -- 38,772 (- 0.5%)


Issues 96-97 are WG tie ins and 101-106 are by Dixon and Beatty. And issue 100 can be considered one of those aniversary issues everyone buys.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Swamp Thing...really.

Oh, god yes! Now i'll NEVER sleep again!

Rape--it's funtastic!*





*That of course being a joke.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I'm sorry, but no one in organized crime with even half a functioning brain is going to let someone into their family who claims he's no longer a cop but won't kill. And an enforcer who won't touch women or children stretches crediblility even further.


In the history of the Mob , have you ever really heard of them killing children ? I'm honest. I've heard of grown men being killed but never children .

Plus your a Mobster ...do you honestly want a Batman or Superman on your doorstep ? I can see why he said he wouldn't fight no capes. Smart business decision there.


Yes Its comics and It stretches what the Mob would do If a guy on crutches showed up and kicked ass for a Mob Family. But never killed.
But again not enough to say Its completely bonkers for happening. Its a good plot and we'll see how far Grayson takes It.

[Calamas]

I don't have any official sales figures, but go into four of the five comic stores in the Charlotte area and you’ll be lucky to find any copy of the “Year One” arc. The fifth store is to far away for me to casually browse.

Regional and unscientific, I admit, but I found it interesting.