All Purpose Buffy The Vampire Slayer

[DrDoomX]

Ok I never really followed buffy, never disliked it, but I am enjoying Astonishing X-Men. I was at Walmart yesterday and found Buffy season 1 for 14.99 should I give it a try...I seen maybe part of an episode, and am willing to try it out...what do you guys say?

[adamthered]

By all means pick it up. That's about half up MSRP I believe. It's only 12-13 episodes but it's great. If you like it then rush right out and get season two, which blows all the other seasons of Buffy away.

[DrDoomX]

By all means pick it up. That's about half up MSRP I believe. It's only 12-13 episodes but it's great. If you like it then rush right out and get season two, which blows all the other seasons of Buffy away.

I think i will, and what is msrp? I donot mean to sound retarded...or anything just wondering what that is....Thanks for the reccomendation

[marshal99]

Season 1 wasn't particularly a strong season , the series was still finding its feet. Season 2 & 3 were definitely its strongest seasons i felt .

[B. Herren]

Great series and loaded with comic references and jokes. Definately worth watching.

[Phil Clark]

... and what is msrp?

Manufacturers suggested retail price.

[DrDoomX]

Manufacturers suggested retail price.

Thanks I made my decision, i think will pick it up...saw an episode today where this character named xander got split into two halves. enjoyed it enough to pick it up, but nothing mind blowing though...

[Gaz]

Thanks I made my decision, i think will pick it up...saw an episode today where this character named xander got split into two halves. enjoyed it enough to pick it up, but nothing mind blowing though...
That's a filler episode really, some nice gags but they missed the opportunity to do some cool scenes with the two of him as the actor ACTUALLY HAS an identical twin brother, who acts.

[DMike]

From what I've heard, the brother doesn't act very well, which is why he's mostly Nick's stunt double.

[Gaz]

From what I've heard, the brother doesn't act very well, which is why he's mostly Nick's stunt double.
So? Have him do the fight scenes with Nick and use Nick for both parts in coverage but cut in some wide shots of them interacting.
Besides, Nick's got the least range of the actors on ANY Whedon show. No slight on him but Aly, Amber, Seth, Tony, Alexis, Stephanie, Summer, Jewel, Nathan, David and Amy all have tremendous range and variety in their performances, Nicky played "Chandler" for 6 years.

[DMike]

Besides, Nick's got the least range of the actors on ANY Whedon show. No slight on him but Aly, Amber, Seth, Tony, Alexis, Stephanie, Summer, Jewel, Nathan, David and Amy all have tremendous range and variety in their performances, Nicky played "Chandler" for 6 years.

Have you forgotten about Marc Blucas? His range makes SMG's husband look well-rounded.

[TheUnknownZombie]

So? Have him do the fight scenes with Nick and use Nick for both parts in coverage but cut in some wide shots of them interacting.
Besides, Nick's got the least range of the actors on ANY Whedon show. No slight on him but Aly, Amber, Seth, Tony, Alexis, Stephanie, Summer, Jewel, Nathan, David and Amy all have tremendous range and variety in their performances, Nicky played "Chandler" for 6 years.
I don't agree. Nick's acting was great, I loved the way you could tell Xander had anger issues (amongst a lot of other issues). My least favourite Whedon actor (talent wise) is Gina Torres. But don't tell her, 'coz Morpheus'll come & beat me up.

[Blueferret]

Have you forgotten about Marc Blucas? His range makes SMG's husband look well-rounded.


Don't jack with Riley, man. He played ball at Wake!!!!!!!

[Ilash]

Yup, Buff's my all time favourite show so I would definitely recommend picking season 1 up. However, I should mention that the first season is actually one of the worst and it only moved from immense fun and really good to brilliant about halfway through its second season.

[Gaz]

I don't agree. Nick's acting was great, I loved the way you could tell Xander had anger issues (amongst a lot of other issues). My least favourite Whedon actor (talent wise) is Gina Torres. But don't tell her, 'coz Morpheus'll come & beat me up.
Like I said, I'm not insulting him. Almost everyone was good, but he was like the worst of the good, get me?

And yes, Blucas has the same charisma as a brick.

[Phil Clark]

Thanks I made my decision, i think will pick it up...saw an episode today where this character named xander got split into two halves. enjoyed it enough to pick it up, but nothing mind blowing though...

So where did you find it for that price?

[Steve]

So where did you find it for that price?
I believe he said Walmart.

Amazon had a 50% off awhile ago with their Fox DVD box sets, so I picked the first season up for 14.99 as well.

Now if I can find Seasons 2 and 3 for that cheap.

[profesorx2690]

does anyone miss the buffy the vampire slayer show its sad its over

[Tommy]

does anyone miss the buffy the vampire slayer show its sad its over
I liked it. But season Six and Seven made Buffy the most unlikable charector ever. And in many ways damn stupid.

[Ilash]

Well, yeah. TV Hasn't been the same since. However much I like stuff like Lost and the OC, Buffy is still my favourite show of all time. That said, I do think it had run it's course as a TV show. A new movie on the other hand, well that I'd love. The loss of Angel actually smarts more because it had just come off it's strongest season to date and could have done with at least another season.

[Steve]

Do I miss it? Not really. My viewing schedule is fat as heck and I have plenty to fall back on.

[Deathstroke]

I miss it, but I make do by reading three different fan fic seasons on line.

One that continues Buffy with Season 8, one that's a spinoff called Watchers and one the focuse on Willow.

[cosmicspidey]

I wouldn't say I miss it. I really, really liked the show, but it's better that it ended before it got really bad (hey! I liked the last two seasons!). I'd certainly be watching it every week if it was still on, but i can make due with the 7 seasons on DVD, along with 5 of Angel, and one of Firefly, plus Joss's writing on Astonishing X-Men.

[Scorpion13]

I miss it, but I make do by reading three different fan fic seasons on line.

One that continues Buffy with Season 8, one that's a spinoff called Watchers and one the focuse on Willow.

Can I get some linkage, please?

[Luigi]

It was my cult classic show. The one I would follow to the end of the earth. I miss it with all my heart.

[Rachel Grey]

After seasons 6 & 7, I'm glad it's gone.

I dont know who those people were, but they were not the Buffy, Willow, Xander & Giles that I loved lo those many years ago.

[Greg Hatcher]

To be honest? I enjoy it more now that it's over. When it was airing, I learned to dread Wednesday mornings because there'd invariably be some sort of shouting match going on HERE about it that I'd have to referee. Nothing sucks all the fun out of a show you like as much as having people fight about it all the time, especially if you're the one with the job of persuading them to play nice with each other.

Now that it's gone I can relax, enjoy the DVDs, and see the show a big chunk of a season at a sitting, which actually plays a lot better anyway.

[GremlinClr]

I so loved the show, but really I think it was time for it to go. The last 2 seasons really weren't the best and it seemed to be dragging a little. Still highly enjoyable though.

A show I am angry about is Angel, season 5 was almost perfect (except for killing of my beloved Fred, bastards) and I was really sad to see it go. It did however have quite possibly the best series finale of any show so that helped the pain a little.

[The Shadow]

I i can make due with the 7 seasons on DVD, along with 5 of Angel, and one of Firefly, plus Joss's writing on Astonishing X-Men.
Me too.

And Serenity is coming out in September!

[Gaz]

OK, I've heard almost everyone, EVER say that Buffy's final seasons were the work of the Dark Lord himself, not fit for human eyes... and so on.
My point is, while not as good as S2-5 (some of 4 I'll argue, and 1 was on par) it was still better than 75% of all TV at the time anyway. I know I preferred it to more Charmed, Andromeda or reality TV.
So, am I alone in this hopelessly positive sentiment, or is there some else that can look past the relative weakness to see the little nuggets of gold inside?

[KenK]

I LOVED season six!! I think it played out beautifually, with Buffy's resurrection, and Willow's descent into darkness. Especially when Giles came back and chewed her out for bringing Buffy back. I think her transition was just great, and the way it was paced out through the season was great. You figure, "who's gonna be the big bad this season?" Yeah, there's the Trio, but they turn out to be lightweights compared to WILLOW!! I mean, to see her turn evil was a shock, regardless of the fact that it was hinted at so beautifully throughout the season. And who saves the day?!? Not Buffy, XANDER!!! I thought it was just a fantastic storyline that played out.

[Gaz]

I LOVED season six!! I think it played out beautifually, with Buffy's resurrection, and Willow's descent into darkness. Especially when Giles came back and chewed her out for bringing Buffy back. I think her transition was just great, and the way it was paced out through the season was great. You figure, "who's gonna be the big bad this season?" Yeah, there's the Trio, but they turn out to be lightweights compared to WILLOW!! I mean, to see her turn evil was a shock, regardless of the fact that it was hinted at so beautifully throughout the season. And who saves the day?!? Not Buffy, XANDER!!! I thought it was just a fantastic storyline that played out.
The handling of the "addiction" thing was ham fisted, but pretty much everything else worked fine, imo. And it watches better in long chunks, on DVD than weekly, I feel.

[Grant]

Not me. I liked the last two seasons.

[Grant]

Not really. I think it ended at the right moment. Angel on the other hand I really missed this year.

[roguespirit]

Haven't seen it yet but I've only heard good things about it

[spoon_jenkins]

I'm a big enough fan that I own season 1-3 on DVD and yet I barely watched season 7 because it wasn't an enjoyable use of my time.

[Dr. Banner]

I hated the last 2 seasons of Buffy with a passion that burns hotter than a thousand suns.

[DMike]

They weren't as good as S1-S5, but I don't hate either season by any means beyond certain isolated episodes (mainly Wrecked and First Date). In all fairness, however, I didn't start watching until a month after the show ended, so I didn't watch it as the seasons were unfolding like most people.

Ironically, I probably wouldn't even have started watching if I hadn't come to this very site and seen all the people bitching about it. The reason I watched my first episode (Lie to Me) was to see what everyone was being all pissy about. And I got hooked, even when FX showed S6 & S7 since reading people's posts already spoiled me about the big things that happened.

And I'd still watch either season over any NBC sitcom (minus Scrubs), FOX sitcom (aside from Sunday nights), or anything on UPN.

[berk]

I like the idea of series ending before they decline in quality, but I do miss it in that I haven't found anything to take its place yet. I mean a genre (supernatural/SF/fantasy) series I look forward to watching every week, whose characters come alive to me, etc, etc. Battlestar Galactica might do it, a lot will depend on the direction they take next year.

[Predator]

There were several things I liked about the last season. I feel that James Marsters did some fantastic work with Spike that year (particularly in his flashback episode to his early time as a vampire, can't remember the title), it was IMO some of his best work. Nathan Fillion played a great character in Caleb, especially in his first episode which still gives me goosebumps to this day. And the addition of Drew Goddard to the writing team was a much-needed injection of new blood; he wrote some fantastic episodes.

So although the 7th wasn't the strongest season--and suffered from numerous problems, which I won't go into now--I thought it had some very good things in it.

[Deathstroke]

Here's the requested links -

Buffy Season 8 (http://www.virtuallunatics.com/pvtwelcome.html)

Watchers The Virtual Series (http://www.thewatcherscouncil.net)

I'm sorry but the Willow series is all screwed up, so I'm not going to provide the link.

However, i do have Angel Season 6 (http://ats-nolimits.com/seasonsix/season.php)

[Grant]

I hated the last 2 seasons of Buffy with a passion that burns hotter than a thousand suns.

Really? If somehow we can tap into that energy we could find an effective renewable power source. Think of the possibilities. We could run entire cities with the power of your hatred towards Season 6 and 7. What a major breakthrough.

And quite possibly making them the greatest seasons ever.

[Deathstroke]

I loved the last two seasons of Buffy as a matter of fact.

[Patient Boy]

Weren't the best the series had to offer, but they had their good points. I felt they were more about Spike than any of the Scoobies though.

[Duy]

I liked 'em just fine.

I didn't think they were as good as seasons 2, 3, and 5, but I still liked 'em.

[SlightlyMad]

It was always going to be hard to top Season 5 (fighting a GOD, where are supposed to go after that!?!) and Season 6 didn't start out too well, the Scoobies were so dark & broody, it was a good job the Trio were there to lighten things up a bit. The series got a lot better towards the end, although...

The handling of the "addiction" thing was ham fisted, but pretty much everything else worked fine, imo. And it watches better in long chunks, on DVD than weekly, I feel.

That episode ("Wrecked") was a very heavy-handed "Drugs are bad, m'kay" although there was some excellent acting from Alyson as the "addict".
The episodes leading up to & the Finale were at least as good (in some cases better) than any that had gone before & I loved the way that Xander was the one who saved the day (the "crayon" speech was very moving).

Season 7 I didn't have any problems with, except that it was the final series. However, I guess the time was right & I thought the end was both brilliant & appropriate.
Angel still had more life (no pun intended) in & should've had at least one more season. :mad:

[Sean Walsh]

Never realized, until I watched S6 a few months ago, that the big bad of that season *was* Willow. Gave me a new perspective - and as a result more respect for - that season.

Still can't forgive them for splitting up Xander and Anya, though... :-/

[Ryan K]

I think Season 6 had a lot of problems. There were some very good stand alone episodes like Once More With Feeling and Tabula Rasa, but I felt the arc of the season was weak the way it played out. The season was far too whiney for me. Everyone whined. And the braking up of Xander and Anya at the altar was so cliche'd and terrible that it's almost unforgivable.

I hated Season 7 when I was watching it on TV, but it plays 100 times better when watched all at once on DVD. Great new supporting characters like Andrew and Principal Wood. Caleb the villain was great. The comedy was lacking and Kennedy sucked but other than that I felt it was a very strong season.

[Kirayoshi]

Season Seven was simply the show running out of steam. I never bought Spike as a good-guy(it worked better with him on Angel's last season because at least he was still a bad-a$$, as opposed to Buffy 7, when he was essentially Angel-lite). IMO, Buffy and Spike worked best as reluctant allies. Not as actual friends, and never as lovers.

My main gripe about season 7 was the fact that, thanks largely to the events of season 6, the core of the show, the Scooby Gang, the center around which all else rotated in the Buffyverse, had fallen apart. By the end of "Chosen", I got the impression that Buffy, Xander and Willow had decided at that point to never cross paths again! Their friendship had weathered everything the Hellmouth had to throw at them. To see them simply drift apart was saddening. Except for the actual final ep, the show limped to the finish line.

Consider; in an interview for Entertainment Weekly(when she announced she was leaving the show), Sarah Michelle Gellar stated that she and James Marsters both opposed the Buffy/Spike romance(and Buffy listed that scene from 'Dead Things' where Spike screwed her in the Bronze as her least favorite moment in the show). When the stars who lived these roles for years know that a plotline is a bad idea and the show's producer goes ahead with it anyway, then there's something fundamentally wrong with the show.

[DMike]

My main gripe about season 7 was the fact that, thanks largely to the events of season 6, the core of the show, the Scooby Gang, the center around which all else rotated in the Buffyverse, had fallen apart. By the end of "Chosen", I got the impression that Buffy, Xander and Willow had decided at that point to never cross paths again! Their friendship had weathered everything the Hellmouth had to throw at them. To see them simply drift apart was saddening. Except for the actual final ep, the show limped to the finish line.

Which, if we can believe Andrew, is what ended up happening anyway. In a way, I actually don't mind the fact that their friendships slowly drifted apart, if only for the fact that it was a continuation of the way things were going in Season 4. With all the things they've been through, the only logical solutions were either them becoming even tighter in their bonds or taking time off/becoming more distant from each other.

[Grant]

My main gripe about season 7 was the fact that, thanks largely to the events of season 6, the core of the show, the Scooby Gang, the center around which all else rotated in the Buffyverse, had fallen apart. By the end of "Chosen", I got the impression that Buffy, Xander and Willow had decided at that point to never cross paths again! Their friendship had weathered everything the Hellmouth had to throw at them. To see them simply drift apart was saddening. Except for the actual final ep, the show limped to the finish line.

I don't see where they decided to never cross paths again. Even in Angel Andrew mentioned everyone would see each other on occasion. The feeling I got from Chosen is Buffy was able to move on and not have the weight of the world on her shoulders. I think that's true of everyone else.

But as for the drifting away thing well friendships are like that. I have friends from high school I barely talk to anymore and maybe see once every two or three years. I think the show in it's last two seasons was showing that everyone was growing up and going into different directions.

I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing creatively.

[Gaz]

Season Seven was simply the show running out of steam. I never bought Spike as a good-guy(it worked better with him on Angel's last season because at least he was still a bad-a$$, as opposed to Buffy 7, when he was essentially Angel-lite). IMO, Buffy and Spike worked best as reluctant allies. Not as actual friends, and never as lovers.

My main gripe about season 7 was the fact that, thanks largely to the events of season 6, the core of the show, the Scooby Gang, the center around which all else rotated in the Buffyverse, had fallen apart. By the end of "Chosen", I got the impression that Buffy, Xander and Willow had decided at that point to never cross paths again! Their friendship had weathered everything the Hellmouth had to throw at them. To see them simply drift apart was saddening. Except for the actual final ep, the show limped to the finish line.

Consider; in an interview for Entertainment Weekly(when she announced she was leaving the show), Sarah Michelle Gellar stated that she and James Marsters both opposed the Buffy/Spike romance(and Buffy listed that scene from 'Dead Things' where Spike screwed her in the Bronze as her least favorite moment in the show). When the stars who lived these roles for years know that a plotline is a bad idea and the show's producer goes ahead with it anyway, then there's something fundamentally wrong with the show.
Which is also partly why Charisma left Angel, she HATED the romance with Angel. But some fans loved it (I wasn't one). I agree that Buffy and Spike's chummyness should have been ditched, in favour of being a couple that have chemistry but also don't really like each other.
OTOH, Spike and Faith had one of my favorite moments in that season, when they're discussing sex. :D

[sehthan]

Season 6 was a lot darker than many fans apparently wanted to see, but it was the culmination of a lot of stuff they'd been building up for a long time. I enjoyed it a lot. Season 7, as a whole, felt a little weak to me. I liked most of the individual episodes, but as an arc - especially as the final one - it didn't feel tight enough. I don't hate it by any stretch, but it's not my favorite.

[Tommy]

The first was a horrible, stupid villian who did everything it could to fail in a lame attempt to make itself scary. (Problem with season seven #1)

Buffy was a total bitch and Raving Lunitic (Problem with season seven #2)

Spike sucked (Problem since season four)

The final four episodes of season six and parts of season seven were great but on the whole they and the fourth season were undeniably beneath the normal level that Buffy was on.

[Gaz]

The first was a horrible, stupid villian who did everything it could to fail in a lame attempt to make itself scary. (Problem with season seven #1)

Buffy was a total bitch and Raving Lunitic (Problem with season seven #2)

Spike sucked (Problem since season four)

The final four episodes of season six and parts of season seven were great but on the whole they and the fourth season were undeniably beneath the normal level that Buffy was on.
Yes, for the most part they were below par, compared with the rest of the show (and season one ain't great either). But compare it to Andromeda, which would you rather watch?

[Ilash]

No way, the last two seasons were damned good. Season six was pretty much excellent even if it was a bit tough to watch at times as Joss really put the characters through the wringer. Not only did Once More With Feelings rule (my favourite episode, in fact) but the closing six-or -so episodes were excellent too. And hey, Tabula Rasa was freaking funny too. Season seven is my least favourite season aside for the first but it was still good. My problems with it were two fold: 1) The First's intangibility and lack of real personality made it the worst big bad of the show and 2) moving away the focus from the Scoobies to the Slayers in training BUT Caleb was awesome and more than made up for the first and they actually made Andrew a cool character, who would hjave thought. All in all, Buffy never became bad, in my opinion - it just dipped slightly in quality.

[Gaz]

No way, the last two seasons were damned good. Season six was pretty much excellent even if it was a bit tough to watch at times as Joss really put the characters through the wringer. Not only did Once More With Feelings rule (my favourite episode, in fact) but the closing six-or -so episodes were excellent too. And hey, Tabula Rasa was freaking funny too. Season seven is my least favourite season aside for the first but it was still good. My problems with it were two fold: 1) The First's intangibility and lack of real personality made it the worst big bad of the show and 2) moving away the focus from the Scoobies to the Slayers in training BUT Caleb was awesome and more than made up for the first and they actually made Andrew a cool character, who would hjave thought. All in all, Buffy never became bad, in my opinion - it just dipped slightly in quality.
*hugs Ilash* This is EXACTLY my view! :) And Nathan Fillion's V/O section at the end of "Dirty Girls" ("There is nothing, in this world, so bad that it cannot be made better with a story...") is brilliant!

[Alex]

I just rewatched season 6, and i like it more everytime i see it.
Some of the willow is a junkie bits are just horribly overdone and obvious, but overall, it wasn't that bad, and i thought Warren had great moments of villiany.

[Alex]

*hugs Ilash* This is EXACTLY my view! :) And Nathan Fillion's V/O section at the end of "Dirty Girls" ("There is nothing, in this world, so bad that it cannot be made better with a story...") is brilliant!
The problem with season 7 was it didn't get good until it was already halfway done.
I loved caleb, and always saw him as a more capable Warren (Who i just mentioned i liked), and it had one of my favorite buffy episodes ever, the one where Principal Wood tried to kill spike.
That fight was possibly the most brutal fight in the seven seasons of the show.

[Gaz]

I just rewatched season 6, and i like it more everytime i see it.
Some of the willow is a junkie bits are just horribly overdone and obvious, but overall, it wasn't that bad, and i thought Warren had great moments of villiany.
Yes, and you grow to like Tara a LOT until she dies. :)
But they cut a great line she had! In the episode where Buffy tells Tara about her and Spike she says something like "You don't know what it's like! Sneaking around, lying to your family about who you're sleeping with!" to which Tara was gonna reply "Sweetie, I'm a fag, I know." :p

[Adaptoid]

Buffy Season 1-3 were stellar. Season 4 was passable, but mediocre. But the rest was crap. It wasn't the same at all. No magic -- nothing. There was nothing special at all about seasons 4 through 7, with the exception of the Joss Whedon scripts, i.e., "The Freshman", "Hush", "Who Are You", "The Body", "The Gift" and "Once More, With Feeling."

The main problem was the Whedon handed creative control to people who did not possess his level of talent and did not have Whedon around to guide and re-write them as needed.

A good example of this is the "Faith" character. That's as good a character as it gets. Whedon worked her into early episodes of Angel fairly well, but her later appearances in Buffy were crap -- a completely different character.

The Whedon-less Buffy is akin to Berman and Braga Star Trek episodes.

[Scorpion13]

Hey, the Glory arc ruled.

[Blueferret]

I think season 4 was the worst of all the seasons. The first half of the season was almost unbearable to watch at times. Season 6-7 were good, but the show became all about the payoff in the last five minute. But Damn, those last five minutes were awesome. I can't tell you how many nights I ended up an extra 2-3 hours because I wanted to see what happened next.

[Deathstroke]

I just rewatched season 6, and i like it more everytime i see it.
Some of the willow is a junkie bits are just horribly overdone and obvious, but overall, it wasn't that bad, and i thought Warren had great moments of villiany.


Oh my gawd, the world is coming to an end. Alex and I were both watching Season 6 at the same time.....

I just finished watching it two days ago.

[spoon_jenkins]

My main gripe about season 7 was the fact that, thanks largely to the events of season 6, the core of the show, the Scooby Gang, the center around which all else rotated in the Buffyverse, had fallen apart.
Mm-hm. I felt a lot of the later character interaction (though I skipped out on a lot of season 7) was depressing rather than warm - a real downer to watch.

Consider; in an interview for Entertainment Weekly(when she announced she was leaving the show), Sarah Michelle Gellar stated that she and James Marsters both opposed the Buffy/Spike romance(and Buffy listed that scene from 'Dead Things' where Spike screwed her in the Bronze as her least favorite moment in the show).
I really agree with SMG here. I know Joss Whedon imagines himself to be the grandmaster of all male feminists, but IMO it really seemed that Buffy was degraded and treated hatefully during that period. As someone who'd grown attached to the character, it was painful to watch.

[tangentman]

Count me as another Buffy fan who liked the last 2 seasons. By no means am I saying that they're my favorite seasons, but they provided better TV viewing than almost all other shows at the time. I liked the overall idea of the Season 6 arc--"Grow Up Already!" The angst and uncertainty that can come with life after high school seemed very believable to me. I especially enjoyed the twists and turns taken by Willow and Tara, as well as the growth in Dawn's character. I thought she really stepped up from the brat she was Pre-Body in Season 5!

The addiction metaphor was indeed heavy-handed and bothered me because I would have better believed the notion of Willow becoming enamored of her growing power. Bringing in a "disease model" for her dark magick seemed like it took the responsibility for this downward spiral away from the character and placed it on a half-assed "addiction".

Still, I liked the payoff that came with the finales and the way the overall story connects together so well!

[Kirayoshi]

I don't see where they decided to never cross paths again. Even in Angel Andrew mentioned everyone would see each other on occasion. The feeling I got from Chosen is Buffy was able to move on and not have the weight of the world on her shoulders. I think that's true of everyone else.

But as for the drifting away thing well friendships are like that. I have friends from high school I barely talk to anymore and maybe see once every two or three years. I think the show in it's last two seasons was showing that everyone was growing up and going into different directions.

I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing creatively.

Maybe not, but what Buffy, Willow and Xander had wasn't an ordinary friendship. They fought beside each other in an ugly and secret war against evil. Yes the stress would take its toll, and people and relationships change, but the way they imploded toward the end of the season(kicking Buffy out of her own house), it was like the first five seasons never happened! Like they had become total strangers! Oh, and why kick Buffy out? It was her house, she should have kicked them out!

And Kennedy. Why, Willow, why? I used to think Buffy and Riley were the show's most chemistry-free couple, until I saw Willow and Kennedy! OY VEY!

[Rachel Grey]

The problem is that in seasons 6 & 7 they did beome strangers. Not to each other, but to the audience. Who are these people? They're not the Buffy, Willow, Xander & Giles that I knew!! :eek:

[Grant]

The problem is that in seasons 6 & 7 they did beome strangers. Not to each other, but to the audience. Who are these people? They're not the Buffy, Willow, Xander & Giles that I knew!! :eek:

They grew up.

Honestly if everyone was the same as they first started I think it'd get pretty boring at least to me. I'm not the same person I was in High School. I saw someone a few months ago I haven't seen in eight years and she didn't even recognize me. But I'm sure if I was on a tv show people would be clamoring for "classic" Grant young, optimistic, and with a full head of hair.

[Grant]

Maybe not, but what Buffy, Willow and Xander had wasn't an ordinary friendship. They fought beside each other in an ugly and secret war against evil. Yes the stress would take its toll, and people and relationships change, but the way they imploded toward the end of the season(kicking Buffy out of her own house), it was like the first five seasons never happened! Like they had become total strangers! Oh, and why kick Buffy out? It was her house, she should have kicked them out!

They've had a lot of blow ups over the years. I can't think of a season where there wasn't a moment where they weren't all yelling at each other. They are close and they love each other. But they also tend to really piss each other off. Like all good friends.

Also honestly if they didn't have some sort of conflict between them at that point in the season it'd be pretty boring.

[Captain Smith]

The last season had so many plot holes that it become unwatchable. The finale was idiotic. Teams of slayer teens waving swords when none of team looked like they could fight their way out of a paper bag.

The Glory Arc was the last really coherent story line.

Dark Willow was OK until she decided to destroy the world with a gadget that just happened to by nearby. Stupid. They could have had the same dramatic ending with Xander intervening to stop her from killing the other Trio guys. That would have had more impact than the old end of the world. Just as stupid as the mayor turning into a snake that simply gets blown up. Duh.

Wheldon is a fraud as a feminist - his gay stuff and SM sex are obviously his fat boy fantasies that he parades as feminisim.

[Nate Grey]

I loved the last season of Buffy. Wasn't my favorite season (that would be season 5), but I still loved it a lot.

[John Aston]

I liked the last two seasons as well.

Season 7 was probably the weakest because it's function was to tie up the series. Many of the stories in the final season were housekeeping.

I didn't find Willow's addiction to be heavy-handed because her character arc began waaaaaaaaaaay back in season three when she became interested in magicks. By the time we get to season six, she's bottoming out and losing control big time.

[Gaz]

The last season had so many plot holes that it become unwatchable. The finale was idiotic. Teams of slayer teens waving swords when none of team looked like they could fight their way out of a paper bag.

The Glory Arc was the last really coherent story line.

Dark Willow was OK until she decided to destroy the world with a gadget that just happened to by nearby. Stupid. They could have had the same dramatic ending with Xander intervening to stop her from killing the other Trio guys. That would have had more impact than the old end of the world. Just as stupid as the mayor turning into a snake that simply gets blown up. Duh.

Wheldon is a fraud as a feminist - his gay stuff and SM sex are obviously his fat boy fantasies that he parades as feminisim.
Except they were being trained for months before that.
And the S&M stuff? That was Marti Noxon's influence, look at her episodes, most feature one of the guys shirtless and someone getting tied up. She's even admitted that was her contribution. And Willow being gay? We didn't even see them KISS for a whole season.

[Rachel Grey]

They grew up.

Honestly if everyone was the same as they first started I think it'd get pretty boring at least to me. I'm not the same person I was in High School. I saw someone a few months ago I haven't seen in eight years and she didn't even recognize me. But I'm sure if I was on a tv show people would be clamoring for "classic" Grant young, optimistic, and with a full head of hair.

I'm gonna dispute that.

To me they seemed more mature as individuals in high school. It seemed more like entropy than growth. I have no problems with people growing up, but if I see someone I like becoming less mature, I'm going to let them know so that they dont regress further.

[Grant]

I'm gonna dispute that.

To me they seemed more mature as individuals in high school. It seemed more like entropy than growth. I have no problems with people growing up, but if I see someone I like becoming less mature, I'm going to let them know so that they dont regress further.

I didn't really see a regression just a struggle trying to figure out how to be an adult (which I felt was the key theme of Season Six). Considering Buffy lost her mom and Giles went back to England they had to do it on their own. They made their share of mistakes but they were mistakes many adults make (rushing into marriage, addiction, self destructive relationships).

[slively]

I miss it terribly! I realize that no show can go on forever and I appreciate that the actors et al were probably tired and needed to move on, but I became so attached to those characters that I felt like I lost a close friend.

I, too, am still pissed off about Angel's cancellation. That was THE stupidest network decision ever. Season 5 was the best season and it is mind boggling that they would cancel it when the momentum was so strong. It was all politics and ego, with the WB not even considering their audience but rather trying to send a message to FOX.

They came to realize the extent of their mistake when the hue and cry went out from fans and they tried to backpeddle with talk of Angel movies, but by then Joss and the David were too pissed off to even consider it (although Joss, I think, changed his stance somewhat later).

[Blueferret]

Yeah, they screwed up cancelling Angel. There was so much potential for season 6 with the way they ended the show. Having 10,000 pissed off demons after you is never fun.

[Bright-Raven]

I liked the cast, but the overall writing for the show went to complete drivel after Season III.

The plots of the major arcs for Seasons IV-VIII were incredibly poorly thought out and presented.

The Initiative was so incredibly inept it was sad. They didn't know who or what Buffy was? Sheesh! I would think that with all the monsters they were catching, someone would have said, "You with the Slayer?" or some such and tipped them off. Or the Initiative Patrols would have been aware of her activities in passing. They sure didn't just arrive there and have an underground facility and crap over the summer and have nobody notice. They'd had to have been there right along.

Dawn / Glory? Claire Kramer was a terrible actress as Glory. Maybe I could've liked it better if someone else had been cast. I doubt it, though. The storyline SHOULD have been the plotline from the Buffy novel BLOODED, by Christopher Golden and Nancy Holder. Vampire who you can stake, but reforms in a new body, with complete memories. And the novel mention's Joyce's illness significantly and would have made 'The Body' much better.

Season Six, or as I call it, "The Dark Willow Saga", ripped off by Joss Whedon and Co., based on an original story by Chris Claremont and John Byrne. Probably why Marvel got Whedon on X-Men; figured he could ape Claremont well enough.

Season Seven... loose ends, basically. Interesting elements were to be had, but overall... just there.

ANGEL was much more engaging, I hate to say. (And they had a lot of story problems themselves.) I really felt at times that the incredibly gifted cast was shot down with such bad stories... I was amazed it lasted seven seasons.

[Corrina]

The last season had so many plot holes that it become unwatchable. The finale was idiotic. Teams of slayer teens waving swords when none of team looked like they could fight their way out of a paper bag.

The Glory Arc was the last really coherent story line.

Dark Willow was OK until she decided to destroy the world with a gadget that just happened to by nearby. Stupid. They could have had the same dramatic ending with Xander intervening to stop her from killing the other Trio guys. That would have had more impact than the old end of the world. Just as stupid as the mayor turning into a snake that simply gets blown up. Duh.

Wheldon is a fraud as a feminist - his gay stuff and SM sex are obviously his fat boy fantasies that he parades as feminisim.

I agree the last season made little plot sense, particularly when they kicked Buffy out of the house.

Kennedy apparently was a replacement for bringing back Tara. According to what I read on another Buffy board, there was going to be an episode where Buffy received one wish in exchange for all her work in saving the world (something like that). When we cut back to reality, Willow is asking her what she wished and Buffy says it was all a fraud. Then Tara shows up and says she's sorry about that and Buffy says "it's okay."

Other good moments in the last two season are the musical episode (I forgive everything bad about that season for the musical episode), and Tabula Rosa. Doublemeat Palace and the episode that brought back Riley I want to wipe from my brain. I also liked the one where Buffy is hallucinating that she's in an insane asylum.

I don't think Whedon is a feminist fraud at all. That last episode, much as you hate the army of slayers, has feminism all over it. Not only did it solve Buffy's own worry about being 'the only one,' but it reached out to it's audience of girls and said "the power is within all of you." It was very true to the spirit of the series.

My two oldest kids were outside playing "Buffy" one day last summer. My son says "But I wanna be the slayer!"

"Only *girls* can be the slayer," answers my daughter.

[Perry Holley]

Seasons 6 & 7, to me, had some serious flaws to be worked past (although to be fair, so did seasons 4 & 5, to a lesser degree). They also each had some excellent episodes, which made them overall more uneven then horroble.

Quite frankly, bad Buffy still tends to be better than much of the crap out there on TV.

[Bright-Raven]

Perry:

It was better than a lot of other shows mainly because it was different from all the cop / lawyer / medical dramas, and the reality Tv crap. Give TV a wider variety of genre, and it probably wouldn't stand up as well, unfortunately.

Not that it wasn't good for what it is.

[Peter]

They grew up.

Into abusive jerks and hypocritical morons who you wanted to smack around the back of the head and scream, "What the ****ing hell is wrong with you?!"

Anyway...

Sorry boys and girls, but count me as somebody else who *hated* seasons six and seven. Utterly.

Season six -- the musical episode notwithstanding (because, let's face it, that was brilliant, and there's no other way of saying it), the season featured incredible steps backwards for *everyone*. Like I said above, everybody matured into complete jerks. While I agree with the underlying subtext, the "Willow is a junkie!" plot was just bad. The finale was weak and meaningless. And breaking up Xander and Anya's wedding was -- out and out -- *unforgiveable*. And two or three Spike-sex-scenes would've been okay, but didn't we end up with about fifteen to twenty?

Season seven -- halfway through season seven, I just gave up. It was crap. You have the First, the lamest villain in the history of fiction (or at least, it could have been an effective villain, had it not been handled so terribly). You have Kennedy, a truly irritating character that Willow inexplicably falls for the first second she meets her. The UberVamps were effective for all of five seconds, until they remembered that they were the badguys and died like rabbits. You have Caleb, who was just offensive. Jonathon being killed was the point where I simply gave up. And as for the season finale? Whedon should've been arrested for that, it was so bad.

The First's great plan? To let the UberVamps run wild, if they weren't too busy tripping over their own feet, which would somehow make the First tangible (good thing they never explained how). Buffy's great plan? Take 30 young girls into the Hellmouth (which is suddenly a giant cave on the "Lord of the Rings" set) and fight countless millions of demons. Yeah, great plan that. Caleb is killed and ignored. The First's plan regarding the Slayer-potentials is forgotten, as is the First's plan regarding Spike. A magical amulet that nobody's ever heard of before and has never been seen before *suddenly* shows up (on another show, no less) and is the key to saving the world.

As for the totally needless and pointless death of Anya -- as said, Joss should've been arrested for that. And wasn't it great that, seconds after learning of Anya's death, Xander was joking about the mall. And nobody seemed to give a rat's ass that Spike had just sacrificed himself to save the world. Those ungrateful brats.

And the lesson we learned? When Evil Nasty Men give girls superpowers against their wishes, it's wrong. But when Wicca Lesbian Goddesses give girls superpowers against their wishes, it's wonderful and happy and kewl.

That's not feminist ideology, that's a double-standard so enormous that it's no wonder Sunnydale sank under the weight of it.

[Captain Smith]

A wise post. Again about feminisim. Joss just gets hot with the lesbian idea. That's the core of the reason he added that to the show. Maybe you have to be a guy to understand it. He did not do it for some political cause.

Same with the potentials - making women strong but really portraying obnoxioius weak whiners who get hysterical and killed.

The show just fell apart as did Angel.

[Gaz]

A wise post. Again about feminisim. Joss just gets hot with the lesbian idea. That's the core of the reason he added that to the show. Maybe you have to be a guy to understand it. He did not do it for some political cause.

Same with the potentials - making women strong but really portraying obnoxioius weak whiners who get hysterical and killed.

The show just fell apart as did Angel.
OK, when did Angel fall apart? The last seasons of Buffy had issues, that I accept, but Angel continually got better.

[Bright-Raven]

Peter:

Everything they did with Anya was reportedly because Emma Caulfield turned into a complete uber-b and essentially caused the writers to screw her character over. So I don't entirely blame Whedon & Co. for that. It's not the first time a performer has screwed themselves.

I never liked Xander / Anya anyway.

Gaz: Angel jumped the shark with bringing back Darla, or with Connor, Cordy carrying the baby and dying (though that one at least you have to say was required given Charisma was preggers), Angel running Wolfram & Hart, the death of Fred... plenty of choices to pick from.

[Gaz]

Peter:

Everything they did with Anya was reportedly because Emma Caulfield turned into a complete uber-b and essentially caused the writers to screw her character over. So I don't entirely blame Whedon & Co. for that. It's not the first time a performer has screwed themselves.

I never liked Xander / Anya anyway.

Gaz: Angel jumped the shark with bringing back Darla, or with Connor, Cordy carrying the baby and dying (though that one at least you have to say was required given Charisma was preggers), Angel running Wolfram & Hart, the death of Fred... plenty of choices to pick from.
The Cordy thing was a combo of her getting knocked up (so the Connor/evil Cordy arc got accelerated) and being unhappy with the show's direction (thus she left after S4).
Bringing back Darla? In S2? Yes, because the first season was brimming over with stand-out episodes (mid-season, there's about 7 terrible epsiodes, including "She",which I fell asleep watching, it was that bad)... :rolleyes:
Connor? True, not my favorite character, but that was kinda the point.
Angel running W&H? Perfect way to illustrate the grey area he's in and how easily the Big Bad can corrupt you.
Killing Fred? Yet we then get Illyria, both a great display of how varied Amy could be but an intriguing character to boot.

[slively]

I loved all of Buffy. Even episodes that were not consistently excellent throughout had something of value in them...a moment of dialogue, a moment of breathtaking acting...that made you realize just why it is that you loved the show.

[Alex]

Oh my gawd, the world is coming to an end. Alex and I were both watching Season 6 at the same time.....

I just finished watching it two days ago.
Im actually making my way through the entire show with someone else, as she had never seen it.
We're at season 3, and i think once they got to 5, they did a much better job of moving the story along. Even filler like Tabula Rasa added to the plot in very important ways, but if you look at season three, epsiodes like The Zeppo, while very fun, added nothing much to the storyline.

[Peter]

Everything they did with Anya was reportedly because Emma Caulfield turned into a complete uber-b and essentially caused the writers to screw her character over. So I don't entirely blame Whedon & Co. for that. It's not the first time a performer has screwed themselves.

So, instead of simply off-camera dropping her character from the "ever see again" list, the writers give an F-YOU! to all her fans and kill her off (in the most pathetic, meaningless way ever) purely because the actress was difficult to work with.

I can't say my opinion of the show's creators is going up, any.

[Z-man]

Where did this "Making the First become tangible" idea come from? I certainly don't recall it from anywhere in the seventh season.

[Z-man]

And the lesson we learned? When Evil Nasty Men give girls superpowers against their wishes, it's wrong. But when Wicca Lesbian Goddesses give girls superpowers against their wishes, it's wonderful and happy and kewl.

That's not feminist ideology, that's a double-standard so enormous that it's no wonder Sunnydale sank under the weight of it.

No, Buffy asked the potentials beforehand, she didn't give them powers against their will. And she didn't force upon them a mission, either, like the elders did.

[Peter]

No, Buffy asked the potentials beforehand, she didn't give them powers against their will.

But then there was that shot of all those little girls all around the world, including the young girl (maybe 8 or 9) playing softball or baseball or whatever. They didn't get much of a choice.

Edit -- and I remember during Buffy's speech, didn't she specifically mention that every girl who "Could stand up, will stand up" or something?

And indeed, Willow's magic appeared to be empowering every potential slayer (through the power of the scythe). Whether they'd said yes or no to Buffy's offer, they probably still wound up with super-powers, regardless.

[Z-man]

But then there was that shot of all those little girls all around the world, including the young girl (maybe 8 or 9) playing softball or baseball or whatever. They didn't get much of a choice.

Edit -- and I remember during Buffy's speech, didn't she specifically mention that every girl who "Could stand up, will stand up" or something?

And indeed, Willow's magic appeared to be empowering every potential slayer (through the power of the scythe). Whether they'd said yes or no to Buffy's offer, they probably still wound up with super-powers, regardless.

She's still not charging them with any sort of duty. She's not giving them powers to fight the monsters she is unwilling to fight.

[tangentman]

Given that monsters often seek out innocent girls in the Buffyverse, Willow's spell actually seems like a good deal to me. Even though the "girls around the world" didn't ask for the Slayer package, there were a few who clearly benefited from it.

The little girl playing softball seemed reluctant and uncertain of herself when she came up to bat. After the spell goes off, she grins when she feels that empowerment. Personally, I wanted to see her knock that ball outta the park!

Then there's the teen girl in the trailer park, being slapped around by her father (?). She catches that arm and stops the beating. Not a negative in my book.

Regardless of the individual quality of the last two seasons, I think that they fit quite well into the overall meta-story of Buffy.

[B. Herren]

I liked the last two seasons. They were just such a departure from the the first five that I think some fans weren't comfortable with them. As stated, the 6th Season was very dark and didn't follow the established Big Bad formula. Season 7 played much more into the bigger overall storyarc and didn't play well when aired episodically. I think the show worked best and was at it's peak in Seasons 2 & 3, but many of the strongest individual episodes were in the later seasons (as well as some of the weaker ones). On a whole the show continually delivered compelling characters, stories, and dialogue.

The last few seasons may not have been the brightest or snappiest of the bunch but were necessary to the characters arcs and progression of the major players, as the show was always primarily about pains of "growing up".

Angel on the other hand: Season One and Two were good, Three and Four really, really sucked, and Season Five was phenomenal.

[Peter]

The little girl playing softball seemed reluctant and uncertain of herself when she came up to bat. After the spell goes off, she grins when she feels that empowerment. Personally, I wanted to see her knock that ball outta the park!

Then there's the teen girl in the trailer park, being slapped around by her father (?). She catches that arm and stops the beating. Not a negative in my book.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing, not at all. I'm not saying that nobody benefitted from it, or that it was a bad idea. As you said, given the perils young women face normally (never mind vampires and monsters), granting them a small amount of superstrength, durability and speed isn't a bad thing.

I'm here wondering why the show itself called it a good thing.

Again, when the Men gave young girls superpowers, it was wrong and nasty and bad. And when Wicca Lesbian Goddess gives young girls superpowers, it's wonderful and cool.

That's not feminist ideology, that's a staggeringly apparent double-standard of the highest calibre. Men = bad, women = good. And that's something I just can't wrap my head around.

[Z-man]

I'm not saying it's a bad thing, not at all. I'm not saying that nobody benefitted from it, or that it was a bad idea. As you said, given the perils young women face normally (never mind vampires and monsters), granting them a small amount of superstrength, durability and speed isn't a bad thing.

I'm here wondering why the show itself called it a good thing.

Again, when the Men gave young girls superpowers, it was wrong and nasty and bad. And when Wicca Lesbian Goddess gives young girls superpowers, it's wonderful and cool.

That's not feminist ideology, that's a staggeringly apparent double-standard of the highest calibre. Men = bad, women = good. And that's something I just can't wrap my head around.

When the men gave young girls superpowers and force them to die fighting while the men would live hiding, that was bad. When Wicca Lesbian Goddess gives young girls superpowers so they can choose to aid Wicca Lesbian Goddess and her friends in the war against evil, or not, that was good.

Cowardism=bad, bravery=good
Slavery=bad, freedom of choice=good.

[Chuckg]

When the men gave young girls superpowers and force them to die fighting while the men would live hiding, that was bad. When Wicca Lesbian Goddess gives young girls superpowers so they can choose to aid Wicca Lesbian Goddess and her friends in the war against evil, or not, that was good.

Cowardism=bad, bravery=good
Slavery=bad, freedom of choice=good.

And what choice did all those girls around the world get? What choice did Dana the Crazy Slayer-Potential get?

Zero. The only choices were for Buffy and her little clique. The rest of the Potentials all around the world? None at all.

[Chuckg]

She's still not charging them with any sort of duty. She's not giving them powers to fight the monsters she is unwilling to fight.

Buffy is, at present, night-clubbing in Rome.

[Gaz]

And what choice did all those girls around the world get? What choice did Dana the Crazy Slayer-Potential get?

Zero. The only choices were for Buffy and her little clique. The rest of the Potentials all around the world? None at all.
"Do I fight the forces of darkness, or not?" is the choice. See, with hundreds of Slayers, the job isn't mandatory anymore. Hence why Buffy was bumming around Europe.
And Dana was damaged psychologically BEFORE the powers, they just let her break out of the hospital, and try and mutilate the SOB that did it to her.

[Gaz]

Buffy is, at present, night-clubbing in Rome.
Yeas, she chose to take a break from being all SuperGal and is just having fun with her new bf. Just like the other girls can choose to do other stuff.

[Z-man]

Buffy is, at present, night-clubbing in Rome.

And yet when there's a battle to be fought, like one against several hundred super vampires, she doesn't let the presense of a whole lot of other Slayers keep her from charging right in there.

She's been given the choice, as well.

[Z-man]

And what choice did all those girls around the world get? What choice did Dana the Crazy Slayer-Potential get?

Zero. The only choices were for Buffy and her little clique. The rest of the Potentials all around the world? None at all.

I must have missed the part of the little montage in which people tracked these potentials down and started forcing them to fight monsters. They're not "the one," so there's no obligation there. And they're not being at all forced into fighting anyone or anything. They simply have the power, it's up to them what they do with it.

It's the difference between selling a fattening high cholesterol sandwhich and cramming it down somebody's throat. Just because it's there does not mean you HAVE to use it.

[Peter]

When the men gave young girls superpowers and force them to die fighting while the men would live hiding, that was bad.

Granted my memory of season 7 is sketchy, but I recall that there was no force involved (at least, not in the "go out and fight demons for us" thing). The girl could've -- and given her powers, it would've been fairly easy -- simply thought, "Screw you guys, thanks for the powers. You can fight your own damn battles. I'm outta here."


freedom of choice=good.

And that's what all those thousands of girls around the world didn't get -- the choice. That's the point I'm trying to prove here -- the girls around the world didn't get the freedom of choice, they just got given the powers.

There really is no difference between what the men did and what the Wicca Lesbian Goddess did -- so again, why is the former nasty and horrible, and the latter wonderful and great? I'm sorry Z, but there's no way around it, because we keep coming back to Men = Bad, Women = Good.

(for the record, I don't hold it against her that, now that she doesn't have to be the Sole Defender Of Humanity, she *can* go and holiday in Rome with a new boyfriend or whatever. Like I said, I don't consider what Willow did to be necessarily a bad thing. And I hate disagreeing with you about this stuff, but I think there's just no way around this. When Willow did it, it was great, but when the Men did pretty much the exact same thing, it was terrible)

[Peter]

I must have missed the part of the little montage in which people tracked these potentials down and started forcing them to fight monsters. They're not "the one," so there's no obligation there. And they're not being at all forced into fighting anyone or anything. They simply have the power, it's up to them what they do with it.l

Which isn't the issue. If it was good when Willow did it -- and all the potentials around the world got exactly the same choice as the original Slayer, ie, none -- why was it bad when the Men did it? And if it was bad when the Men did it, why was it wonderful when Willow did it?

Because of the army of Ubervamps? There were demons and monsters that needed to be fought back then as well.

[Z-man]

Granted my memory of season 7 is sketchy, but I recall that there was no force involved (at least, not in the "go out and fight demons for us" thing). The girl could've -- and given her powers, it would've been fairly easy -- simply thought, "Screw you guys, thanks for the powers. You can fight your own damn battles. I'm outta here."




And that's what all those thousands of girls around the world didn't get -- the choice. That's the point I'm trying to prove here -- the girls around the world didn't get the freedom of choice, they just got given the powers.

There really is no difference between what the men did and what the Wicca Lesbian Goddess did -- so again, why is the former nasty and horrible, and the latter wonderful and great? I'm sorry Z, but there's no way around it, because we keep coming back to Men = Bad, Women = Good.

(for the record, I don't hold it against her that, now that she doesn't have to be the Sole Defender Of Humanity, she *can* go and holiday in Rome with a new boyfriend or whatever. Like I said, I don't consider what Willow did to be necessarily a bad thing. And I hate disagreeing with you about this stuff, but I think there's just no way around this. When Willow did it, it was great, but when the Men did pretty much the exact same thing, it was terrible)

Umm, Peter? I'm sorry, but it sure seems here like you said earlier in this post that the Slayer was not forced to be the sole defender of humanity, and now you mention that she was, up until the spell was cast.

Take a young woman, put something into her that you wouldn't dare put into yourself, and tell her that her friends and family will die if she doesn't go around killing things, drill into her head concepts such as "sacred birthrights," and you've pretty much forced her to wade into battle with dark forces while you stay over here, behind this pillar. Which Buffy and friends did not do.

[Gaz]

Besides, guys with mucho magic that lets them give girls that power? I don't know that they would have been that easy for her to fight.

[berk]

I didn't hate them, but I did think the quality was a little more variable than in the earlier seasons. I'm looking forward to watching them all on dvd sometime, because I've heard so many people say they like them better the 2nd time around, with no mid-season breaks of several weeks' duration, to hinder the story's flow.

[Gaz]

I didn't hate them, but I did think the quality was a little more variable than in the earlier seasons. I'm looking forward to watching them all on dvd sometime, because I've heard so many people say they like them better the 2nd time around, with no mid-season breaks of several weeks' duration, to hinder the story's flow.
The highs were better (Once More, With Feeling) but the lows were worse (Doublemeat Palace)

[DMike]

I think in regards to the shared power aspect that it was probably for the Potentials's own good even if they didn't have the choice. Before Chosen they were being hunted down and killed by the Bringers, and had Buffy's army failed, the Ubervamps would have come after them. Since the Girl Power montage didn't show any Watchers, chances are those girls were untrained and probably defenseless. At least with the power they were given they have the opportunity to defend themselves if Buffy's people lost and Potentials were still being hunted and slaughtered.

Doesn't necessarily make it right, but at least it served some purpose.

[Bright-Raven]

Gaz:

Bringing back Darla? In S2? Yes, because the first season was brimming over with stand-out episodes (mid-season, there's about 7 terrible epsiodes, including "She",which I fell asleep watching, it was that bad)...

I disagree with the "bad" episodes in Season I, but more importantly I saw nothing that the Darla character did that couldn't have been done as well if not better by a new character, or using Druscilla. One of the biggest pet peeves I've always had is that with the exception of when Dru killed the one Slayer in Buffy Season II, she's been little more than a backdrop piece. She's FAR more interesting a character than Darla ever was.

The Cordy thing was a combo of her getting knocked up (so the Connor/evil Cordy arc got accelerated) and being unhappy with the show's direction (thus she left after S4).

Yeah, and they basically screwed her character over as much as they did Emma Caulfield's Anya. Hey Peter! How come you're not whining about that, too?

Connor? True, not my favorite character, but that was kinda the point.

I never saw all of season III (no TV for a year where I lived) but what I have seen in syndication... I didn't like Wesley, Connor, Angel being a "dad", Cordy... the characters just went kaput. I almost didn't bother continuing with the series after missing Season III and at times wished I hadn't bothered, but there wasn't anything else to watch anyhow.

Killing Fred? Yet we then get Illyria, both a great display of how varied Amy could be but an intriguing character to boot.

Yes and no. Illyria had potential and yes, Amy Acker was doing a good job in the role, but the character wasn't around long enough, IMO.

I think the biggest downfall about both BUFFY and ANGEL was that they were always trying to hook the two leads up with someone else. Why the hell can't a person be happy with themselves without a partner of some kind, at least for a little while (say, two seasons)?

[Chuckg]

Isn't one of the things the new Watchers' Council is doing post-Chosen going around and rounding up all the new Slayers they can find?

The Slayer squad that showed up in Angel episode 5x11 ("Damage") was /not/ just the Potentials from Sunnydale, was it?

So much for lettin' the girls go their own way.

[Gaz]

Isn't one of the things the new Watchers' Council is doing post-Chosen going around and rounding up all the new Slayers they can find?

The Slayer squad that showed up in Angel episode 5x11 ("Damage") was /not/ just the Potentials from Sunnydale, was it?

So much for lettin' the girls go their own way.
It might have been, and we don't know how they're doing it. They might be going to the girls and saying "Wanna be a superhero, you may die?" "No, thanks" "Ok, then. Next Slayer?"

[Peter]

Umm, Peter? I'm sorry, but it sure seems here like you said earlier in this post that the Slayer was not forced to be the sole defender of humanity, and now you mention that she was, up until the spell was cast.

She wasn't. But she didn't get a choice in receiving the powers.

Just like all the potentials around the world received absolutely no choice when Willow did her magic.

And -- again -- when Willow did it, it was fantastic.

If freedom of choice = good, why was it treated so wonderful that said freedom was thrown out the window?

"Whether you like it or not, you're getting these fancy superpowers, and that's all there is to it." The attitude of both the original Nasty Men, and Willow/Buffy in "Chosen".


Which Buffy and friends did not do.

Which again is not the issue. The issue is that when the men gave the Slayer her powers, Buffy (I think in that speech she gave the potentials she specifically referred to those big bad men who forced powers onto young girls) hated it. And in the same breath, she praised the idea that now that Willow will be handing out superpowers, *that* was okay.

Fair enough Buffy didn't hunt down each and every Slayer and force her into the ring with a monster, okay. Again, not the issue. The fact is Buffy (and the writers) treated the two instances of the exact same happening in two totally different lights, and the only difference is that one was because of Men, and the other was because of Wicca Lesbian Goddess. And that still stinks, no matter how you look at it.

[Donald Stone]

Count me as one person who thinks the show would have been much better ending at "The Gift". IMO the only good thing in seasons 6 and 7 was "Once More with Feeling."

[Blueferret]

I've got a question about a topic I've seen on this thread and other Buffy threads:Kennedy! I never watched Buffy when it was on, but have caught up with it by DVD. What was the opinion of everyone when the show was still on? I think she's annoying as hell and should've been killed in the finale, but I wonder what people were saying back then?

[Z-man]

Isn't one of the things the new Watchers' Council is doing post-Chosen going around and rounding up all the new Slayers they can find?

The Slayer squad that showed up in Angel episode 5x11 ("Damage") was /not/ just the Potentials from Sunnydale, was it?

So much for lettin' the girls go their own way.

Is there a single bit of on screen evidence that they forcibly recruited these women? We've only seen that they want to deal with the crazy Slayers.

[berk]

Blueferret said:
I've got a question about a topic I've seen on this thread and other Buffy threads:Kennedy! I never watched Buffy when it was on, but have caught up with it by DVD. What was the opinion of everyone when the show was still on? I think she's annoying as hell and should've been killed in the finale, but I wonder what people were saying back then? I thought she was fine, but I do remember reading quite a few negative comments about her on various msgboards at the time.

[Chuckg]

I've got a question about a topic I've seen on this thread and other Buffy threads:Kennedy! I never watched Buffy when it was on, but have caught up with it by DVD. What was the opinion of everyone when the show was still on? I think she's annoying as hell and should've been killed in the finale, but I wonder what people were saying back then?

Back then? On the Buffy fan boards I was on, Kennedy was loathed only slightly less than Jar-Jar Binks.

And still is.

[Chuckg]

From "Chosen", Buffy season 7 episode 22


WILLOW
We changed the world. I can feel them, Buffy. All over. Slayers are awakening everywhere.

DAWN
We’ll have to find them.

WILLOW
We will.


From Angel season 5, episode 11, "Damage"


ANGEL
All the potentials become slayers.

WESLEY
An army of slayers. Brilliant stratagem. But with the watchers council
destroyed, how will these new slayers receive their necessary—

ANDREW
Mr. Giles and a few key Sunnydale alum have been tracking down the
recently chosen... uh, guiding them, training them... giving them the full X-Men, minus the crappy third act.


From later on in the same episode...


ANDREW
Yeah. Of course, uh...she's in Rome. Dawn's in school there. Italian school.

SPIKE
Well. Rome, eh? Never pegged her for the expatriate show.

ANDREW
Yeah. She was rounding slayers up in Europe, decided she liked it there, I guess. You think that, um...


You know, I don't see one bit of on-screen evidence that the Slayer Army they're building /is/ made of volunteers. It's all about 'rounding up' and 'the training that they need'.

[eJm]

Count me as one person who thinks the show would have been much better ending at "The Gift". IMO the only good thing in seasons 6 and 7 was "Once More with Feeling."
Agreed, but only if they tuned up the episode a bit more, maybe make Glory and Buffy fall down together into the portal thing and killed each other, thus making the 'Ultimate Sacrifice' thing really work.

[KenK]

The highs were better (Once More, With Feeling) but the lows were worse (Doublemeat Palace)

HEY! I LOVED Doublemeat Palace! What's funnier than Buffy having to get a job, and at a fast food joint no less! I thought it was quite inspired; a warrior for the forces of good against demons and all the forces of evil, and she's slingin' burgers to make ends meet!! And the kicker: The doublemeat burgers were MEATLESS!!!! That's bloody priceless!!

And can someone refresh my memory about what 'Tabula Rasa' was about again? I figure it's one of the more memorably episodes, but I never paid much attention to the episode titles unless they were featured in the commercial ads.

[Scorpion13]

Tabula Rasa was the one where Willow inadvertantly erases all thier memories. Friggin awesome ep.

"Stay away from Randy!!"

[Gaz]

Tabula Rasa was the one where Willow inadvertantly erases all thier memories. Friggin awesome ep.

"Stay away from Randy!!"
Sorta ironic that he forgot what it's about, huh?

[shades of eternity]

What always bugged me is that after Spike got a soul, and Drusilla got resurected, they never crossed paths again.

I would love to see if they would still love each other (about the only truely good thing when they first arrived), and/or became mortal enemies.

Would Spike try to get Drusilla a soul, or would drusilla have Spike return to being william the bloody.

Ah the ever popular what if.

[Z-man]

From "Chosen", Buffy season 7 episode 22



From Angel season 5, episode 11, "Damage"



From later on in the same episode...



You know, I don't see one bit of on-screen evidence that the Slayer Army they're building /is/ made of volunteers. It's all about 'rounding up' and 'the training that they need'.

The X-men aren't exactly known for their draconian recruitment techniques.

And I don't see one bit of on-screen evidence that the Slayer Army they're building is /not/ made of volunteers.

And, now that I've tracked it down, I will quote you the exact line from "Get it done" that explains why the men were bad. "No, you don't understand. You violated that girl because you're weak, your pathetic, and you obviously have nothing to show me."

See, unlike them, Buffy and Willow understood (because of 6+ years of experience each), and they're not weak. They can fight the monsters and they still fight the monsters. They didn't chain a single girl up and force hert to fight some big bad that they could not or would not fight.

[Z-man]

What always bugged me is that after Spike got a soul, and Drusilla got resurected, they never crossed paths again.

I would love to see if they would still love each other (about the only truely good thing when they first arrived), and/or became mortal enemies.

Would Spike try to get Drusilla a soul, or would drusilla have Spike return to being william the bloody.

Ah the ever popular what if.

Drusilla never died and never got resurrected.

But, yeah, I wanted to see a post soul Spike/Drusilla meeting.

[KenK]

Sorta ironic that he forgot what it's about, huh?

Ha Ha. That was a good! :D

[berk]

I'd love to see Drusilla get her soul back. Now that there's already two vampires with souls, there's no point inpretending it's a uniques phenomenon any more. A vampire Drusilla with a soul would be a fascinating contrast to Spike and Angel, since she was such a very different personality from those two, before and after becoming a vampire. Always thought she was a great character and I love the way Landau played her.

[Reptisaurus!]

I'd love to see Drusilla get her soul back. Now that there's already two vampires with souls, there's no point inpretending it's a uniques phenomenon any more. A vampire Drusilla with a soul would be a fascinating contrast to Spike and Angel, since she was such a very different personality from those two, before and after becoming a vampire. Always thought she was a great character and I love the way Landau played her.

That.

Is a good idea. Love t' see that.

(And although Buffy is certainly one of my fave shows ever, I was always busy on Tuesdays for the last few years of it's life. So I missed the last couple seasons wholesale. Although the first ep. of Season... six? Seven? Was really good. And the one where Willow

Killed those dudes

made me really uncomfortable.)

[shades of eternity]

Spoilers please.

How did Dru and Spike break up from each other?

[KenK]

I don't know, I think vampire Drusilla with a soul would have staked herself rather quickly, being as stark-raving mad as she was before becoming a vampire, and having to deal with being a vampire with a soul.

[Gaz]

Spoilers please.

How did Dru and Spike break up from each other?
Basically, Spike became obsessed with Buffy and Drusilla started cheating on him.

[Tommy]

Basically, Spike became obsessed with Buffy and Drusilla started cheating on him.
He seemed like a nice guy.

[Gaz]

He seemed like a nice guy.
I'm sure he was, she obviously didn't tell him she was still involved with someone. And his suit was very neat.

[Tommy]

I'm sure he was, she obviously didn't tell him she was still involved with someone. And his suit was very neat.
Well when you have infinit time to date you should expect to run into one or two ex's where things were left unresolved.

[Gaz]

Well when you have infinit time to date you should expect to run into one or two ex's where things were left unresolved.
True, but you forget... she's $%£&in' nuts!

[Tommy]

True, but you forget... she's $%£&in' nuts!
So true. She even gave birth to her own Grandmother.

[shades of eternity]

man I must have missed that.

I gotta hear the spoiler for that one. :)

[DMike]

SPOILER

When Darla came back to life, so did the syphilis that was killing her as a human. Right after she learned to accept the time she had left, Wolfram & Hart had Drusilla kill & re-vamp her.

Darla -> Angelus -> Dru -> Darla

[TheDarkestHorse]

I didn't have cable when buffy was actually on. I've been catching the reruns on FX (4 a day!), and I believe I've seen all of sasons 5 and 7, but I'm just now seeing most of the season 6 eps...and WTF?!

Now, I love 7. 5 is my favorite...Giles cleaning up behind Buffy by killing Ben was incredible, and felt very real. Spike was flawless..."I'm a monster, but you treat me like a man." gave me shivers. I cried when Buffy said "This is where I gave up." in the ep where Willow went into her mind. And I, for one, LOVED Glory.

In season 7, everything gets complicated, lots of new characters and subplots, which is how I like it. Just having all the supporting fighters together, fighting on a massive scale, did it for me SO good. The scene where the scoobies kind of played out their original roles, almost did a skit, instead of saying goodbye was insanely powerful, and I cried again. Also, Spike going through all he did to get his soul back, and not being rewarded for it (even having Buffy comment on how much weaker he's become : "You were a better fighter then."), and finally, Spike and Buffy spending one night in eachothers arms, not screwing, just being together...I was touched. Spike always accepted Buffy for what she was, and his first loyalty is to her (remember when she trusted him to protect Dawn, even if it meant the end of the world?), and this bond between them was handled in a subtle, beautiful way.

Or so I thought.

Turns out, in season 6, this bond was soiled and ruined. Buffy's friends and family are begging her to spend time with them, and she's blowin them off to get nailed?! She's supposed to be out patrolling, and instead the two best demon-fighters in Sunnydale are getting freaky! Who was keeping the vampires from running rampant, for god's sake!?

In season 7, Buffy was very aloof and unrelateable, but I liked that...She was a hero. She'd been fighting a war, carrying the weight of the world on her shoulders, and it had hardened her. She didn't relate to her friends because she was stronger than them, and she had to be. In season 6, it's the exact opposite...she's weak, and whiny, and altogether iresponcible! God, what an unlikeable bitch! When she was crying into Tara's lap, I just wanted Tara to knee her in the face! "Get a grip!" That part in The Bronze was just sick! It was worse than the Riley episodes!

Anyway, I just wanted to defend season 7, and slam season 6. I was wondering...can anyone give me a reason they hate Kennedy? I thought she was the least annoying potential! At least she wasn't all whiny and cowering like the others.

I also wanted to comment on the whole Men/Women, power-giving-lesbian-witch-men-bad topic...the way I took it, the reason the men were wrong to do it was more because they made ONLY one slayer. Wasn't the whole point that they could have made all potential girls slayers, but instead decreed that there could be only one, thereby making sure the world would be safe, without giving women an edge over men? I think they were wrong for holding back the power, condemning one girl to a life of total responsibility, when they could have spread the wealth and made the world a better place, but they were too afraid of losing control. Willow was just finishing what those guys were too mesogynistic to go through with, right?

Just my two cents.

[jadegiant77]

I watch Buffy on FX religiously(gotta get my Slayer fix!). In my watching I have come up with two questions:

1)What was the meaning of that whole "guy with cheese" thing on the dream episode?

2)Who was "the Immortal" that Buffy was gadding about with on one of the final Angel episodes?

[Gaz]

I watch Buffy on FX religiously(gotta get my Slayer fix!). In my watching I have come up with two questions:

1)What was the meaning of that whole "guy with cheese" thing on the dream episode?

2)Who was "the Immortal" that Buffy was gadding about with on one of the final Angel episodes?
1) There is none, Joss himself said that the point was to have something in the dreams that made NO sense whatsoever, because that often happens in real dreams.
2)Everything we know about the Immortal is in that episode, he was created for it.

[DMike]

What Gaz said about the Cheese Guy is entirely true, but if you look around on Buffy sites, there are a lot of interesting theories as to what they think he represents.

[Gaz]

What Gaz said about the Cheese Guy is entirely true, but if you look around on Buffy sites, there are a lot of interesting theories as to what they think he represents.
Dude, what Joss meant the curtains to mean in Willow's dream was enough for me.... ;)

[jadegiant77]

Ok, just WHO was the Immortal? was he a vamp or something? I don't have a strong recall of that episode. Another question: was Dawn/the Key actually projected into the past and born as an actual child, or were just everyone's memories altered into thinking she was there all along? the reason i ask is that the comic seems to inply the former.

BTW, has the Buffy comic been canceled?

[Z-man]

Ok, just WHO was the Immortal? was he a vamp or something? I don't have a strong recall of that episode. Another question: was Dawn/the Key actually projected into the past and born as an actual child, or were just everyone's memories altered into thinking she was there all along? the reason i ask is that the comic seems to inply the former.

BTW, has the Buffy comic been canceled?

The Immortal was just what he was said the whole episode: An immortal. Not a vampire, just an immortal. Would he die if you chopped off his head? Nobody knows. Stop obsessing about it.

Everyone's memories were messed with.

I dunno about the comic, but I know Angel's comic has moved to IDW.

[Legato]

Was turning Willow gay a good or bad decision on Joss part? Did he originaly intended on having her turn gay?

During the early seasons of Buffy Willow showed no signs of being interested in women but when Terra came she automatically started to have feelings.

[Flight]

Tara not Terra.

I heard Whedon was deciding to make either Xander or Willow gay.
Seth Green (Oz) wanted to leave so that settled it.

[VCreed32]

The early seasons also had bi-Vamp Willow.

[Phil Clark]

I have nothing against gay characters in movies and TV shows, and I have several gay friends. But when a characters sexual preference becomes a major plot element of every episode of a show after he/she comes out is a sure way to hamper a show. It is like when Ellen came out for real and on her sitcom. The sitcom became a one joke show. It killed the show for me. Not because she was gay, but because it seemed as if she felt like she had to constantly slap us in the face and scream "I'm GAY!!!!".

[JohnPopa]

I don't think it hindered the show at all. It was a character arc that fit in with many of the other themes the show discussed in regards to teenagers and their progression into adulthood (and, of course, amping those themes into monsters for the action-oriented angles of the show.)

[BoosterBronze]

I'd argue that Willow being gay was one of the most sensitive and realistic portrayals of a young lesbian on television today.
If I recall right, the first time she kissed Tara, it was when Joyce Summer's died, and it was done with such honest emotion it didn't come off as the LEAST exploitive. Hell, I didn't even notice it as a LESBIAN KISS, until it was over because I was caught in the scene.

[Arvandor]

It was a bad idea - because Alyson Hannigan was clearly uncomfortable with the role, and she was absolutely the LEAST convincing lesbian in the history of acting.

There was absolutely NO passion and NO chemistry between Willow and Tara. They never even kissed until halfway through Season 5, and then it was with about as much passion as two disinterested cousins.

Somebody should have made Alyson sit down and watch THAT kiss in Cruel Intentions over and over and over, and then made her practice until she got it RIGHT!
If Sarah Michelle Gellar could do it, then she should have been able to as well. But she couldn't, and that's why Sarah's the superior actress.

[JohnPopa]

How do you know Allyson Hannigan was uncomfortable in the role? Has she said so?

[The Shadow]

The early seasons also had bi-Vamp Willow.
And DAMN was she HOT!

I liked it when she came out.. it didn't fit with the stereotypical tv show that has been on for decades... Joss did something unexpected... made a central character gay but it didn't DOMINATE the show... she was still Willow, still helping Buffy, still kicking ass... just with Tara instead of Oz.

[The Shadow]

But when a characters sexual preference becomes a major plot element of every episode of a show after he/she comes out is a sure way to hamper a show. It is like when Ellen came out for real and on her sitcom. The sitcom became a one joke show. It killed the show for me. Not because she was gay, but because it seemed as if she felt like she had to constantly slap us in the face and scream "I'm GAY!!!!".
But it didn't change anything. Willow would have been just as upset if she stayed straight and Oz got killed.

Willow was always hugging and kissing Oz... she exhibited the same behavior with Tara.

Somebody should have made Alyson sit down and watch THAT kiss in Cruel Intentions over and over and over,
I know I did... :eek:

If Sarah Michelle Gellar could do it, then she should have been able to as well. But she couldn't, and that's why Sarah's the superior actress.
Sarah is a MUCH better actress than Hannigan... no question!

[tangentman]

I think that some of you miss the point about the Tara/Willow relationship if you write it off as "bad writing" because of a supposed "lack of chemistry". The two actresses certainly DID share chemistry--it came out in the tender caresses and glances shared, the devotion that they conveyed, and the believable sense of loss showed by Willow in early Season 7.

Tara and Willow can't be honestly compared with Catherine in CRUEL INTENTIONS because Catherine was a promiscuous and manipulative bitch who was toying with Selma Blair's character. Will and Tara shared an intimate, gentle, and tender relationship. They weren't intended to act out a porno fantasy.

[Gaz]

I think that some of you miss the point about the Tara/Willow relationship if you write it off as "bad writing" because of a supposed "lack of chemistry". The two actresses certainly DID share chemistry--it came out in the tender caresses and glances shared, the devotion that they conveyed, and the believable sense of loss showed by Willow in early Season 7.

Tara and Willow can't be honestly compared with Catherine in CRUEL INTENTIONS because Catherine was a promiscuous and manipulative bitch who was toying with Selma Blair's character. Will and Tara shared an intimate, gentle, and tender relationship. They weren't intended to act out a porno fantasy.
Except in Restless. And the episode when Tara died. :p
And since when is SMG more talented than Hannigan? (I don't even concede she's better than Dushku) Alyson is more nuanced and subtle, much like her husband (who stole most of Angel's 3rd and 4th seasons)

[Jared]

I'm not sure which actress it was who was uncomfortable, perhaps boht, but the scenes of I've seen of them (granted, not that many) I didn't think they came off very convincing either. With glances and dialougue, maybe, but anything physical, and you can tell at least one of them must have felt akward during filming, which kills the chemistry.

Also, I never really got how Willow could have gone from being in love with Xander, then in love with Oz, to being a full-on lesbian over the course of a year. That her vampire doppleganger from an alternate universe hit on her hardly is exactly serious foreshadowing. She could certainly be bi, and maybe she'd just come to female relationships overall, but it seems to me that she just became disenterested in men totally, and automatically interested in the one other lesbian character who appeared, even though Kennedy was a bitch. No chemistry with her, either.

[Michael P]

From Joss's point of view, it was a good move.

From the point of view of the male fans who harbored sexual fantasies about Willow (i.e., all of them), it was a bad move.

And thus was television (and fanfiction) history made.

[The Shadow]

From the point of view of the male fans who harbored sexual fantasies about Willow (i.e., all of them), it was a bad move.
I dunno... instead of just ME and Willow... it was ME, Willow AND Tara :D :D

Seems like a better fantasy ta me :D

[Headhunter]

I understand why Joss made the decision, but it didn't work that well. It was done with respect, but the focus on Willow's sexuality ended up hurting the show.

Xander became a peripheral character, which was a HUGE mistake in my opinion. Tara got too involved in the central storylines, as did Andrew in Season 7.

The best seasons were 1, 2 and 3; characters we loved got the attention they deserved. After that, the world got a little bigger and the focus a little duller, and it was pretty good but not great. :(

[Gaz]

I understand why Joss made the decision, but it didn't work that well. It was done with respect, but the focus on Willow's sexuality ended up hurting the show.

Xander became a peripheral character, which was a HUGE mistake in my opinion. Tara got too involved in the central storylines, as did Andrew in Season 7.

The best seasons were 1, 2 and 3; characters we loved got the attention they deserved. After that, the world got a little bigger and the focus a little duller, and it was pretty good but not great. :(
Tara got too MUCH focus?
WHEN?!
She was "Willow's girlfriend, then ex, then... oops she's dead"
That was the sum total of the character development she got!
She NEVER played a major part in the central arcs, she was basically a McGuffen in seasons 5 and 6. (It could have been any of Glory's zombies in 5, and the big honkin' tower o' crazy should have been obvious) And 6? Don't get me started with how dumb the death was, despite how great it was performed by both women.

[tangentman]

C'mon, Tara was a member of the SUPPORT cast. As much as I love the character, the show IS called "Buffy The Vampire Slayer" ;)

Tara received enough important scenes and sub-plots to garner fair attention. Examples:

1. Tara triggered the spike in Willow's magical power and helped her heal from Oz' abandonment.

2. Tara struggled with the fear of being a demon, which ran from "Goodbye Iowa" in Season 4 to "Family" in Season 5.

3. She played a key role in returning Buffy to her own body. Tara was the one who sensed Faith in Buffy's body, and helped Willow perform the spell to recreate the magical device to restore them.

4. Tara sensed the true nature of the haunted frat house in "Where The Wild Things Are" and distracted the poltergeists long enough to allow Anya and Xander entry into the house to save Buffy and Riley.

5. Although I'm never sure about the true story behind this one, Tara acted as the voice for the First Slayer in "Restless". She seemed to be a "Dream Guide" in that episode to Willow and Buffy.

6. The whole "Family" episode was a Tara spotlight.

7. Tara helped Willow cast the spell which teleported Glory out of Sunnydale Hospital, which was important in showcasing Willow's first real use of offensive magic in the series.

8. Stepped up as the comforter and a maternal figure in "The Body". Tara comforted Willow and reached out to Buffy as the sole person who understood the loss of a mother.

9. Tara helped cast the resurrection spell that brought back Buffy in "Bargaining".

10. Tara was the moral center and mother figure of the cast in Season 6, particularly to Dawn.

11. Killed the leader of the biker demons.

12. Served as Buffy's confidante when she needed to vent the truth about her relationship with Spike.

13. Stood up for Willow's decision not to use magic as a convenient solution in "Older and Far Away".

For a supporting character, Tara played a pretty important role in Seasons 4-6. Oh, and I can't forget the focus she had in "Once More With Feeling"! :D

[Corrina]

Tara got as much screen time as Anya did. In fact, I think Anya got more after she broke up with Xander than Tara did after she broke up with Willow.

[tangentman]

Given that the thread title is "Buffy Question", I'm going to ask one.

It's a Casting Call. If Buffy or Angel had kept going, who would you cast as guest stars or even new cast members? Give me an actor, character name, and function; at least two of the three.

I'll kick off:

Actor: Kathleen Robertson
Character: Wimberly McCain, hottie gadgeteer & amateur demon-hunter
Role: Xander's new girlfriend in "Season 8" of Buffy.

[Shellhead]

I think that some of you miss the point about the Tara/Willow relationship if you write it off as "bad writing" because of a supposed "lack of chemistry". The two actresses certainly DID share chemistry--it came out in the tender caresses and glances shared, the devotion that they conveyed, and the believable sense of loss showed by Willow in early Season 7.

Tara and Willow can't be honestly compared with Catherine in CRUEL INTENTIONS because Catherine was a promiscuous and manipulative bitch who was toying with Selma Blair's character. Will and Tara shared an intimate, gentle, and tender relationship. They weren't intended to act out a porno fantasy.

Good points. And just how many straight guys in this thread are passing judgment on convincing lesbian behavior? Surprise, real lesbians usually don't look or act like porn stars doing lesbian scenes.

[Gaz]

C'mon, Tara was a member of the SUPPORT cast. As much as I love the character, the show IS called "Buffy The Vampire Slayer" ;)

Tara received enough important scenes and sub-plots to garner fair attention. Examples:

1. Tara triggered the spike in Willow's magical power and helped her heal from Oz' abandonment.

2. Tara struggled with the fear of being a demon, which ran from "Goodbye Iowa" in Season 4 to "Family" in Season 5.

3. She played a key role in returning Buffy to her own body. Tara was the one who sensed Faith in Buffy's body, and helped Willow perform the spell to recreate the magical device to restore them.

4. Tara sensed the true nature of the haunted frat house in "Where The Wild Things Are" and distracted the poltergeists long enough to allow Anya and Xander entry into the house to save Buffy and Riley.

5. Although I'm never sure about the true story behind this one, Tara acted as the voice for the First Slayer in "Restless". She seemed to be a "Dream Guide" in that episode to Willow and Buffy.

6. The whole "Family" episode was a Tara spotlight.

7. Tara helped Willow cast the spell which teleported Glory out of Sunnydale Hospital, which was important in showcasing Willow's first real use of offensive magic in the series.

8. Stepped up as the comforter and a maternal figure in "The Body". Tara comforted Willow and reached out to Buffy as the sole person who understood the loss of a mother.

9. Tara helped cast the resurrection spell that brought back Buffy in "Bargaining".

10. Tara was the moral center and mother figure of the cast in Season 6, particularly to Dawn.

11. Killed the leader of the biker demons.

12. Served as Buffy's confidante when she needed to vent the truth about her relationship with Spike.

13. Stood up for Willow's decision not to use magic as a convenient solution in "Older and Far Away".

For a supporting character, Tara played a pretty important role in Seasons 4-6. Oh, and I can't forget the focus she had in "Once More With Feeling"! :D
Half of 1 is shaky. (Willow's power wasn't "triggered" by her, they were just stronger together, but Willow was always supposed to be powerful, because she cast the Calderash spell)
2 and 6 are the same thing. That story was touched on in two beats and one character ep, which is far less than other supporting characters got.
3, 4 and 5 are exposition, which frankly should have been her job once ASH left in S6.
7 and 9 are Willow
8, 10, 12 and 13 (13 is closer to her role as the girlfriend, though) are all the same thing really, and again tie to what she should have been in S6. (She should have taken Giles' place, frankly)
And 11 is the ONLY time she killed anything, which is again, much less than anyone else. (Not sure if that's bad though)

[tangentman]

Willow had hit her plateau by Season 4. Joining hands with Tara in the laundry room opened the door to Willow's power potential. Willow became capable of casting major spells WITHOUT them misfiring, with only two exceptions ("A New Man", "Triangle"). This happened because of Tara.

I stand by point number two because that was a long-running subplot. The strange behavior and hints weren't paid off until "Family". Also, Family wasn't just the resolution of Tara's fear, but the beginning of her increased assertiveness and her full inclusion into the Scoobies.

A character providing exposition doesn't discount the amount of attention that she receives in a series. In those episodes, Tara displayed a considerable amount of insight and occult knowledge. These scenes highlighted her expertise of Witchcraft from hereditary practice, which set her apart from the more "scholarly" approach taken by Willow. Willow was very cerebral in her take on magic, Tara was more intuitive and principled.

Willow's power was what set off the teleporting and resurrection spells, but Tara helped her both times in conducting the preliminary rituals that helped Willow shine with those power displays. Expand the credit for "Bargaining" to give props to Anya and Xander for their roles in that plot point.

Whether or not similar moments happen, they were scenes that gave focus to Tara. I don't need to list unique examples for every single point to show that she received a fair amount of attention in those season. I also listed them historically to show her character arc and level of participation in the stories.

Tara wasn't really the "demon-killer" of the Scoobies--she was moral center, nurturer, and "support team" in their patrols or fights. Despite only killing the one demon, she certainly used her powers enough in several defensive maneuvers to show her effectiveness as a witch--guiding Willow in barricading the laundry room against the Gentlemen, anchoring Willow in their ethereal scan to find Buffy's spirit and create the McGuffin device needed, confusing Jonathon's demon with the fog spell, helping cast the teleport spell against Glory, hurling a magic missile at the biker who nabbed Anya, freeing the Scoobies and hurling a heavy piece of furniture at a demon in "Normal Again".

Tara had plenty of occasions to shine on Buffy :) If Angel had gone to Season 6, I would've liked seeing Tara coming back to serve the Fang Gang as their new "Seer" for the Powers.

[The Shadow]

Quick Angel question regarding Charisma... did she want off the show or did Joss write her off to stir things up?

[tangentman]

Charisma became pregnant, Joss wrote her off. The official line was that "Cordelia's story had run it's course". Make of that what you will to reach your own truth.

[Gaz]

Charisma became pregnant, Joss wrote her off. The official line was that "Cordelia's story had run it's course". Make of that what you will to reach your own truth.
Um, no. She wasn't happy with the direction the character took and decided not to come back for S5. (at least that's HER story, and the one Minear and others stick by)

[BoosterBronze]

I have a question and this seems like the right thread for it.

OK, if Vampire dont have souls, how is it that Spike still loved his momma when he became a vampire, but then used the explanantion that vampires don't have souls to explain why his momma didn't love him anymore once she was a vampire.

[Pariah128]

im just saying THANK GOD they did not make xander gay, that would of just been..wrong

and also I dont mind gay characters, but it seems like every damn shown has to have a homosexual just to be diverse..but that gets annoying

[JerrBear81]

I have a question and this seems like the right thread for it.

OK, if Vampire dont have souls, how is it that Spike still loved his momma when he became a vampire, but then used the explanantion that vampires don't have souls to explain why his momma didn't love him anymore once she was a vampire.

Spike had the memories of William, so did Angelus have the memories of his human self. So therefore they'd still have those feelings.

From what I get a lack of a soul doesn't rule out love, it just rules out the ability to make a relationship really work.

As for Spike's mother, either he was using that as an excuse to make himself feel better or the theory is the more loving and good a person is the more evil the vampire they are. Look at Willow's vampire self.

Re: Convinceability of Lesbians -

Ok, I don't get it. Why were they so unconvincing? I've seen Buffy many times over, Season 1-6 at least 5 times, and they never looked unconvincing to me as lesbians. In fact they looked very loving.

[JerrBear81]

im just saying THANK GOD they did not make xander gay, that would of just been..wrong

and also I dont mind gay characters, but it seems like every damn shown has to have a homosexual just to be diverse..but that gets annoying

How would it be wrong?

[tricksterpup]

I have a question and this seems like the right thread for it.

OK, if Vampire dont have souls, how is it that Spike still loved his momma when he became a vampire, but then used the explanantion that vampires don't have souls to explain why his momma didn't love him anymore once she was a vampire.
Just picture the soul to be like that little voice that tells you to not stick that fork in someone's eye. They could feel emotions, just no restraint or guilt.

[DMike]

OK, if Vampire dont have souls, how is it that Spike still loved his momma when he became a vampire, but then used the explanantion that vampires don't have souls to explain why his momma didn't love him anymore once she was a vampire.

"Spike: You can't tell me that there isn't anything there between you and me. I know you feel something.
Buffy: It's called revulsion. And whatever you think you're feeling, it's not love. You can't love without a soul.
Drusilla: Oh, we can you know. We can love quite well... if not wisely." from the episode Crush.

[BoosterBronze]

"Spike: You can't tell me that there isn't anything there between you and me. I know you feel something.
Buffy: It's called revulsion. And whatever you think you're feeling, it's not love. You can't love without a soul.
Drusilla: Oh, we can you know. We can love quite well... if not wisely." from the episode Crush.

So how come Spike's momma didn't love him anymore?

[tricksterpup]

So how come Spike's momma didn't love him anymore?
Because William was a whinney little brat.

[JerrBear81]

So how come Spike's momma didn't love him anymore?

The more good a person is in life, the more evil a vampire is in unlife. That's why they're so choosy about who they turn. Because someone more evil than you will potentially have an easier time stabbing your back.

Spike wasn't that good of a person in life. But his mother was a saint.

[Gaz]

The more good a person is in life, the more evil a vampire is in unlife. That's why they're so choosy about who they turn. Because someone more evil than you will potentially have an easier time stabbing your back.

Spike wasn't that good of a person in life. But his mother was a saint.
Not strictly true.
Darla was hardly a saint, nor was Liam.
I don't think Spike mum ever DID love him, she needed him but didn't truly care for him.

[JerrBear81]

Not strictly true.
Darla was hardly a saint, nor was Liam.
I don't think Spike mum ever DID love him, she needed him but didn't truly care for him.

Well I always hypothesized that Darla and Liam were actually good people deep down.

I mean, they weren't exactly evil, even by today's standards. Just lost (Like Faith was).

[Gaz]

Well I always hypothesized that Darla and Liam were actually good people deep down.

I mean, they weren't exactly evil, even by today's standards. Just lost (Like Faith was).
Yes, but they weren't AS good as they were bad post-vamping.

[JerrBear81]

Yes, but they weren't AS good as they were bad post-vamping.

I suppose that perhaps Neutral People make the most evil of vampires. I mean, if Spike's mom is any indication, then most of those vampires that were good people in life are killed right away because they don't know how to lie, therefore are always honest about what they will do. They're just too honest. While neutral people like Liam and Darla, their memories serve well for an evil vampire.

[VCreed32]

Not strictly true.
Darla was hardly a saint, nor was Liam.
I don't think Spike mum ever DID love him, she needed him but didn't truly care for him.
Seconded..

[JerrBear81]

I think Spike's mom loved him. Mothers don't usually sing to kids they don't like.

I do think, however, she didn't like some of his traits, and the demon took those as a way to insult Spike.

I still hold by my theory, mostly because of Vamp Willow and Xander. Both very evil.

[Nate Grey]

I have a question and this seems like the right thread for it.

OK, if Vampire dont have souls, how is it that Spike still loved his momma when he became a vampire, but then used the explanantion that vampires don't have souls to explain why his momma didn't love him anymore once she was a vampire.

When you're turned, your soul departs, and a demon takes over, but your BRAIN remains, obviously. That's why the vampire has personality traits of the body its in, only tweaked or even exaggerated. Spike was still a talker once he was turned, he just lost his corniness, if you think about it.

Also, whoever you loved/hated in life you kept those feelings in death, its just no telling how your vampire self will interpret that. Spike felt an obvious extention of his love for his mother was to turn her. He was wrong, but evil beings view things in a skewed way.

[Ilash]

Not sure if this is the best place to post this but here is some new info about the forthcoming Buffy comic (coming out in March apparently) from the Entertainment Weekly. I am apprehensive about Buffy comics because of how bad so many of them have been in the past but Whedon is writing the first four issues and is overseeing the rest so this looks real promising. I cannot wait for this.

Check the link here. (http://www.ew.com/ew/report/0,6115,1562057_3_0_,00.html)

[MikeVic]

I know a thread exists for Buffy/Angel discussions... but I've never seen the entire series before. I've so far watched season 1 and 2, and started season 3 of Buffy. I had someone to ask in person about anything I had questions about up to this point... but I don't anymore. So I was hoping I can keep this thread up for questions that I might need answered as I'm watching...

However, if a question I have is answered in the show eventually, please let me know. :) Thanks.

Questions:
- Angel just came back from the demon world. From a previous episode (the one where a demon slave master was kidnapping homeless people to help him build something), I learned that 1 day in our world is really 100 years in the demon world. So to me it made sense when the homeless people would come back old after spending a day in the demon world (they would age 100 years). So since Angel has been gone for a while (the summer?), would he have aged thousands of years? And gone through thousands of years of torture? Or am I misunderstanding the demon world?

-When should I start watching the Angel series? Or can I watch all seven season of Buffy, and then watch Angel?

[Aggie]

Questions:
- Angel just came back from the demon world. From a previous episode (the one where a demon slave master was kidnapping homeless people to help him build something), I learned that 1 day in our world is really 100 years in the demon world. So to me it made sense when the homeless people would come back old after spending a day in the demon world (they would age 100 years). So since Angel has been gone for a while (the summer?), would he have aged thousands of years? And gone through thousands of years of torture? Or am I misunderstanding the demon world?

-When should I start watching the Angel series? Or can I watch all seven season of Buffy, and then watch Angel?

i think angel was in a different hell dimension, it's been a while since i've seen s3 but if i remember correctly, angel suffered torture for a significant period of time, but didn't age at all...now this could also be due to the fact that he's a vampire, but to my knowledge, that was never really explained...

if i were to suggest a starting point for angel i would have to say after s3 of buffy, cuz that's when the spin off first aired...there are things that happen in later seasons in buffy that directly corrolate to angel and visa-verse...i hope that helps some...:)

[BoosterBronze]

those might have been different demon worlds, but then again, thousands of years of torutre is keeping with Angel's 'no luck' gimmick.

There are no SERIOUS problems watching all of Buffy, then watching Angel, but if your an uber fan, you'd probably want to start alternating.

BUFFY 1, 2, 3, Angel 1, Buffy 4, Angel 2, Buffy 5, Angel 3, Buffy 6, Angel 4, Buffy 7, Angel 5

[NDHorse]

BUFFY 1, 2, 3, Angel 1, Buffy 4, Angel 2, Buffy 5, Angel 3, Buffy 6, Angel 4, Buffy 7, Angel 5

I would actually watch the Buffy Season 4 before Angel Season 1 just because when they were on TV, Buffy was on right before Angel, so if there was a two parter, it would immediately continue from Buffy right into Angel. If you watch Angel Season 1 first, you will get part two of any crossovers and then see the first part when you watch Season 4 of Buffy.

I actually watched them together on DVD at the exact same time, so I would watch Buffy Season 4, Episode 1 and then Angel SEason 1, Episode 1, and so on. It matched up perfectly.

[BoosterBronze]

I actually watched them together on DVD at the exact same time, so I would watch Buffy Season 4, Episode 1 and then Angel SEason 1, Episode 1, and so on. It matched up perfectly.

Well, I just set up my TV and my laptop so I'm watching the AT THE EXACT SAME TIME!!! (All while listeing to the novelizations on my CD player)

I'm geeking out on a whole new level!

[MikeVic]

Thanks for the answers!

Ok, so I'm not alone in being a bit confused about the demon world and why Angel wasn't really aged.

Looks like I'll try to sync my Buffy season 4 and Angel season 1.

[jwd]

Thanks for the answers!

Ok, so I'm not alone in being a bit confused about the demon world and why Angel wasn't really aged.

Looks like I'll try to sync my Buffy season 4 and Angel season 1.

Angel's a vampire. Vampires don't age. That's it. The time he spent in hell is unknown. I think its mentioned it was hundreds of years but I can't recall specifics. Time passes different in different dimensions.

[MikeVic]

Angel's a vampire. Vampires don't age. That's it. The time he spent in hell is unknown. I think its mentioned it was hundreds of years but I can't recall specifics. Time passes different in different dimensions.

I thought vampires do age (albeit slowly)? There was one episode where Buffy and Faith (so must have been in the first few episodes of season 3, since I'm only on episode 6 right now) fight the oldest vampire alive. And he's all old and I think they mention he's dying? His hands look all weird, and it was mentioned that's what happens when vampires get really old.

I think that's what is confusing me.

[Ryan Day]

Some of the older vampires seem to age, or at least grow more demonic. But those are the really, really old ones.

Angel's also got a soul, so maybe that holds off some of the demonization.

[DonC]

Questions:
- Angel just came back from the demon world. From a previous episode (the one where a demon slave master was kidnapping homeless people to help him build something), I learned that 1 day in our world is really 100 years in the demon world. So to me it made sense when the homeless people would come back old after spending a day in the demon world (they would age 100 years). So since Angel has been gone for a while (the summer?), would he have aged thousands of years? And gone through thousands of years of torture? Or am I misunderstanding the demon world?

I'm reasonable certain they mention he was in that hell dimension for the equivalent of around 400 years.

-When should I start watching the Angel series? Or can I watch all seven season of Buffy, and then watch Angel?

The shows only cross over a handful of times. Most of the those are just guest-starring episodes. In fact, I believe there was only one instance where the events in one series effected the other. Angel finds the amulet that Spike wears in the final episode of Buffy. I could be forgetting some things, though. It's been a couple years since I watched these shows.

[SnowTrooper]

I thought vampires do age (albeit slowly)? There was one episode where Buffy and Faith (so must have been in the first few episodes of season 3, since I'm only on episode 6 right now) fight the oldest vampire alive. And he's all old and I think they mention he's dying? His hands look all weird, and it was mentioned that's what happens when vampires get really old.

I think that's what is confusing me.

Most modern Vampires dont age. Vampires from thousands of years ago dont really age either, they just turn more demonic(like Ryan Day said). That vampire from season 3(Kakistos), as well as The Master and The Prince of Lies when you get to season 5 of Angel, look that way because they were among the first vampires and there blood hasnt been mixed with humans blood over thoudands of years so its more pure and demonic.

I think vampires have to be a couple thousand years old before they start showing signs of age. Angel is around 300(400+ counting hell dimension) so he isnt going to look very different.

[Chiasm]

The shows only cross over a handful of times. Most of the those are just guest-starring episodes. In fact, I believe there was only one instance where the events in one series effected the other. Angel finds the amulet that Spike wears in the final episode of Buffy. I could be forgetting some things, though. It's been a couple years since I watched these shows.

Staying vague so as not to spoil anything.

Season IV of Buffy has a direct crossover involving Oz where events in Buffy lead to events in Angel.

Then later in season IV of Buffy the return of a certain character in Buffy then leads to some characters going over to Angel.

And of course a certain Buffy character arriving in Angel during season IV of Angel is very important to events in Angel and then in Buffy given who comes back with the character.

[Kirayoshi]

Also(here there be spoilers):
Angel appeared in an episode of Buffy Season 4, without telling Buffy. When Buffy found out, she followed Angel to LA, and appeared in that night's ep of Angel.

A Buffy/Angel crossover(Buffy S.5, Angel S.2), with both episodes on the same night, told the same flashback story, giving us details in the early lives of Spike, Darla and Angelus.

After the BtVS S.5 finale, Willow visited Angel at the end of his S.2 finale to tell him of Buffy's death. Her(temporary) death did affect Angel, especially in the following season premiere.

[MikeVic]

Thanks for the replies. I'll read the text in spoiler tags last on in my watching. :)

Just watched season 3, episode 11 of Buffy ("Gingerbread"). Had a few questions/comments. Keep in mind that I don't want anything spoiled with upcoming episodes and seasons. :)

-Who is this Amy girl? When they show the gang in the lunch room, they all seem to know who she is and greet her... talk about patrolling around her. Was she introduced as a part of the gang before, and I completely forgot? Haven't seen her in the past few episodes at least...

-I hate Buffy's mom. I know most of the bad things with her weren't her fault... but I still hate her.

-I find some of the actor/actress choices amusing. One of the episodes had that Scofield guy from Prison Break as a swimmer, and now in "Gingerbread," the little boy was Andrew van De Kamp from Desperate Housewives. :)

[marshal99]

-Who is this Amy girl? When they show the gang in the lunch room, they all seem to know who she is and greet her... talk about patrolling around her. Was she introduced as a part of the gang before, and I completely forgot? Haven't seen her in the past few episodes at least...

-I find some of the actor/actress choices amusing. One of the episodes had that Scofield guy from Prison Break as a swimmer, and now in "Gingerbread," the little boy was Andrew van De Kamp from Desperate Housewives. :)

Amy is a powerful witch and classmate of Buffy from school. She actually appeared in several episodes in season 1 & 2.
Wentworth miller has appeared in bit parts in a lot of shows , he was in the very first episode of Ghost Whisperer before his breakthru part in Prison Break.

[kalorama]

Amy is a powerful witch and classmate of Buffy from school. She actually appeared in several episodes in season 1 & 2.
Wentworth miller has appeared in bit parts in a lot of shows , he was in the very first episode of Ghost Whisperer before his breakthru part in Prison Break.

He was also in Underworld.

[MikeVic]

I just caught parts of Underworld... he had hair!

So it seems like I've forgotten that Amy has been introduced as knowing about Buffy then? It caught me offguard that they were talking about Buffy's patrolling with her around.

Another question:
-In the episode where Cordelia wishes for Buffy to never have come to Sunnyvale, Angel still knows who she is and all that. I'm guessing that this is because his destiny (as he said it) was to come to Sunnyvale and help out Buffy. So no matter what else happened, that was still his destiny, correct? So when he came to Sunnyvale and she wasn't there, he was probably confused lol. Or is there more to this...?

[marshal99]

I just caught parts of Underworld... he had hair!

So it seems like I've forgotten that Amy has been introduced as knowing about Buffy then? It caught me offguard that they were talking about Buffy's patrolling with her around.

Another question:
-In the episode where Cordelia wishes for Buffy to never have come to Sunnyvale, Angel still knows who she is and all that. I'm guessing that this is because his destiny (as he said it) was to come to Sunnyvale and help out Buffy. So no matter what else happened, that was still his destiny, correct? So when he came to Sunnyvale and she wasn't there, he was probably confused lol. Or is there more to this...?

In the season 2 episode "becoming" where Angel turned bad , they had a flashback that showed when Whistler recruited bum Angel from the streets and revealed Angel's destiny as a force of good and took Angel to spy on pre-sunnydale Buffy. That was when Angel fell in love with Buffy and decides to wait for her in sunnydale to help her out. (since there's where the hellmouth is)
I'm guessing that part still holds true in "the wish" alternate reality except Buffy went to Cleveland instead of Sunnydale.

[MikeVic]

In the season 2 episode "becoming" where Angel turned bad , they had a flashback that showed when Whistler recruited bum Angel from the streets and revealed Angel's destiny as a force of good and took Angel to spy on pre-sunnydale Buffy. That was when Angel fell in love with Buffy and decides to wait for her in sunnydale to help her out. (since there's where the hellmouth is)
I'm guessing that part still holds true in "the wish" alternate reality except Buffy went to Cleveland instead of Sunnydale.

Ok, thanks! I remember hm spying on her, but forgot it was pre-Sunnyvale(dale?). Makes sense.

[kalorama]

So it seems like I've forgotten that Amy has been introduced as knowing about Buffy then? It caught me offguard that they were talking about Buffy's patrolling with her around.

Amy first appeared in a story in which her mother used witchcraft to switch bodies with her daughter, so she could relive the glory days of her youth as a cheerleader (Mom/Amy was bumping off potential cheerleading rivals, including Buffy, who was trying otu for the team). Buffy and the gang broke the spell, returning Amy to her body and trapping mom's soul in some kind of vessel (don't remember which one). After that, Willow and Amy (who, like mom, studied witchcraft) became buddies and studied magic together.

[MikeVic]

Amy first appeared in a story in which her mother used witchcraft to switch bodies with her daughter, so she could relive the glory days of her youth as a cheerleader (Mom/Amy was bumping off potential cheerleading rivals, including Buffy, who was trying otu for the team). Buffy and the gang broke the spell, returning Amy to her body and trapping mom's soul in some kind of vessel (don't remember which one). After that, Willow and Amy (who, like mom, studied witchcraft) became buddies and studied magic together.


Ahh.. I think that was one of the first episodes? Or at least one of the first in the second season. I remember that. Wasn't the mom trapped in some sports trophy?

[kalorama]

I'm pretty sure it was Season One. And I believe mom was trapped in a cheerleading trohpy that eneded up being kept in a display case at the school.

[NDHorse]

I'm pretty sure it was Season One. And I believe mom was trapped in a cheerleading trohpy that eneded up being kept in a display case at the school.

They actually made a joke in a later episode about the trophy. Someone else was looking into the trophy case and remarked that they eyes of the trophy seemed to follow them. It was one of those little one-off remarks, I think by Oz or somebody who wasn't a part of the original episode, that gives a nice nod to continuity.

[Chiasm]

They actually made a joke in a later episode about the trophy. Someone else was looking into the trophy case and remarked that they eyes of the trophy seemed to follow them. It was one of those little one-off remarks, I think by Oz or somebody who wasn't a part of the original episode, that gives a nice nod to continuity.

It was Oz as I clearly remember him saying it in the deadpan way he had of saying a lot of things but I have no idea which episode it was.

[MikeVic]

Just watched episodes 15 and 16 of Buffy Season 3. Episode 15 was one of the most emotional episodes so far for me. When Buffy lets out that initial crying noise after she gets to Willow's... that was powerful.

I remember seeing bits and pieces of the series, so I know of certain things that happen, but I had no idea Faith kinda went bad (unless this is some big plan of theirs or something).

I know that Willow eventually hooks up with some female witch. But I had no idea they hint at her being gay in season 3! I had one question about that... when Cordelia first makes that wish for Buffy to never have come to Sunnydale... Willow and Xander were like a vampire couple or something. At least it looked that way. Do you think Whedon changed his mind in between those episodes? Or was Willow just toying around with vampire Xander?

[Gaz]

It's not clear. Whedon himself planted the hints of it in one of his season 3 eps, as I recall, but he didnt write the original doppleganger ep. He later claimed that he intended one of them to come out from the start, but he didn't decide which until further on.

Now, given that there are signs of such long-term planning in some episodes and plot points, it's quite possible that's true.

[tangentman]

Vamp Willow appeared to be bisexual, and Angel unwittingly hints at things to come in a throwaway remark in Dopplegangland. I loved that particular awkward moment! :D

[MikeVic]

Vamp Willow appeared to be bisexual, and Angel unwittingly hints at things to come in a throwaway remark in Dopplegangland. I loved that particular awkward moment! :D

Ahh, bisexual! That makes sense then. :)

[BoosterBronze]

I vaguely remember an episode from the last season of Buffy (I think) where Dawn met two other kids at school, two kids who were practically her own Xander and Willow, and they had a little adventure, like they were perhaps being set up to be new recurring characters.

Did those teens ever come back? Or am I totally misremembering this?

[NDHorse]

I vaguely remember an episode from the last season of Buffy (I think) where Dawn met two other kids at school, two kids who were practically her own Xander and Willow, and they had a little adventure, like they were perhaps being set up to be new recurring characters.

Did those teens ever come back? Or am I totally misremembering this?

Spoiler Below
They were never to be seen again. I think they even mention it in the commentary on the DVD that they hoped to bring them back, but with everything happening in Season 7 and the ever growing Potential population, they just couldn't work them in.

[marshal99]

Maybe those questions should go to the main buffy/angel thread , wouldn't want to ruin this guy's thread with spoilers.

[NDHorse]

Maybe those questions should go to the main buffy/angel thread , wouldn't want to ruin this guy's thread with spoilers.

Spoiler text added

[malephoenix]

Most modern Vampires dont age. Vampires from thousands of years ago dont really age either, they just turn more demonic(like Ryan Day said). That vampire from season 3(Kakistos), as well as The Master and The Prince of Lies when you get to season 5 of Angel, look that way because they were among the first vampires and there blood hasnt been mixed with humans blood over thoudands of years so its more pure and demonic.

I think vampires have to be a couple thousand years old before they start showing signs of age. Angel is around 300(400+ counting hell dimension) so he isnt going to look very different.

I was under the impression that you stayed exactly how you were whenever you were sired. That you were frozen at that age forever. The line from the Kakistos (sp?) episode was something like "He's a demon so old that his hands and feet are cloven." I took that to mean that he was turned so long ago that he was still going through evolution or some crap like that. Not that he changed as he got older.

[MikeVic]

Just updating on my thoughts of the series... no real questions right now.

Buffy: The second half of season 3 was really good. I liked a lot of the episodes. Found it odd that Jonathan tried to commit suicide with a sniper rifle though lol.

The first half of season 4 was slow, but it started to pick up. I'm on episode 16 or 17 right now, and am loving it. The last episode was odd... Jonathan as some super-guy lol.

Angel: First half of season 1 was slow too. But it picked up either in the episode where Doyle dies, or somewhere close to that. I'm on episode 16 or 17 too, and have liked it recently.

[MikeVic]

I'm watching an episode of Angel, and a question struck me.

How did Cordelia survive that big metal pole going through her side? I completely forget.

[The Foreigner]

I'm watching an episode of Angel, and a question struck me.

How did Cordelia survive that big metal pole going through her side? I completely forget.

It just didn't hit any major organs.

[Typo Lad]

It actually was based on an actual injury the actress had.

[MikeVic]

I can't find the thread I started about Buffy and Angel so that I don't come across any spoilers... but I was wondering if it's safe to watch season 5 of Buffy from episode 13 and on without watching Angel season 2 episode 13 and on?

I wanted to watch both series in the order as they first aired, but Buffy season 5 has got me so excited. While Angel season 2 hasn't really.

I'm asking because I don't want to watch any cross-over episodes out-of-order. I don't want to know how the episodes cross-over, just whether they do...

Thanks!

[marshal99]

I don't think there's a direct crossover episodes with any of the main casts of either shows but there's sort of crossover with minor buffyverse characters - i.e a non-regular character would appear in Buffy , have a bit of hijinx , then appears on Angel next and have a bit of hijinx there , and vice versa , specifically Harmony & Darla. Don't think you really have to follow it in order to make sense.

However , you have to watch the finale of Buffy season 5 first before Angel season 2 because a character from Buffy will appear in the last part of angel finale.

[DrewTheXenocide]

So I started watching Buffy recently, and I gotta say, I don't know what took me so long. I ran through season 3 in, like, one weekend, and currently running my way through season 4. The only thing I didn't like thus far was the beginning of season 4, with Buffy pining over that Parker guy like that. It seemed to me that she should've been at least somewhat stronger than that.

[marshal99]

The void left by Angel was never really filled , both in the show and in Buffy's personal life.

[Blueferret]

Here's a question that I don't think I've seen an answer on: Whatever happened to Whistler? I was watching Becoming the other day and noticed that he filled the exact same role as Doyle in Angel season 1.

[acagle7]

Here's a question that I don't think I've seen an answer on: Whatever happened to Whistler? I was watching Becoming the other day and noticed that he filled the exact same role as Doyle in Angel season 1.

He just sort of disappeared after Becoming: Part 2. He was originally planned to serve as a sidekick for Angel on Angel's show. But the actor who played Whistler was unavailable so they decided to create the character of Doyle to replace him with.

[DrewTheXenocide]

Towards the beginning of Season 7,

How exactly does Spike sire all those guys? As I remember, in order to sire someone, you've gotta bite them, then they've gotta bite you and all that fun stuff. How'd he skip this step?

Oh, and these potentials are starting to annoy me.

[Chiasm]

Towards the beginning of Season 7,

How exactly does Spike sire all those guys? As I remember, in order to sire someone, you've gotta bite them, then they've gotta bite you and all that fun stuff. How'd he skip this step?

Oh, and these potentials are starting to annoy me.

He doesn't skip anything or so I got the impression. They just never really show it on screen.

[Nick Kal]

I've just been watching all 7 seasons, straight. This is like one of the best shows in T.V. History. If only Season 8 would make it to tv... =/

[Blueferret]

I've just been watching all 7 seasons, straight. This is like one of the best shows in T.V. History. If only Season 8 would make it to tv... =/


Welcome to the club:D

[Hi-Fi]

I've just been watching all 7 seasons, straight. This is like one of the best shows in T.V. History. If only Season 8 would make it to tv... =/
Dude, where were you??


Yeah, Buffy is the best TV show ever.

[SnowTrooper]

I just started getting back into Buffy and Angel. Ever since Angel got cancelled I havent watched maybe more than a couple episodes of each show. Now since summer is here and im really bored I have been TiVo-ing every re-run and watching them.

I have to say that my favorite season of Buffy is season 6 and my favorite season of Angel is season 3.

[Ryan K]

I have to say that my favorite season of Buffy is season 6 and my favorite season of Angel is season 3.

I'd say my least favorite season of Buffy is season 6 and my second least favorite season of Angel is season 3 (season 4 being the worst by far . . . maybe the worst season of television Joss Whedon ever produced IMO).

[Nick Kal]

Dude, where were you??


Yeah, Buffy is the best TV show ever.


Hey man! So busy with school.

I've been rewatching the whole series, I followed it when it was on t.v., and got the Chosen Collection and just rekindled my love for Buffy!

[Nick Kal]

Just finished... The series is over. I'm sad.

[Chiasm]

I have to say that my favorite season of Buffy is season 6 and my favorite season of Angel is season 3.

Those are my two favs as well. There is a lot of hate out there for these seasons for some reason which I just don't get.

Buffy had some of the greatest episodes of the whole series. And the whole Dark Willow thing was sweet. All I can think is that there are a lot of bitter Tara fans out there.

And season 3 of Angel is when we finally got to see scruffy Wesley. I wouldn't go gay for scruffy Wesley but if you put a gun to my head and said pick a man well scruffy Wesley would surely be at the top of my list.

[Nick Kal]

Well, the Musical Episode was certainly one of the best things I have seen, but I think Season 5 was pretty frakin' sweet.

First of all, The Body was heartbreaking. I've never seen a t.v. show handled in that way. It was pretty brilliant. Then the finale was just great, and the end was awesome. Buffy is the most self centered brat, but she grew in ways that overshadowed that.

The character development in this show was just amazing. It should be brought back!

P.S. Anya dying sucks. =(

[Chiasm]

I'm one of the four Buffy fans in the world that absolutely hated The Body.

It was a good episode for about ten minutes. Then the Scoobies showed up and ruined it, particularly Anya who is a character I never ever liked and especially hated in this episode.

And the end of the episode was so entirely lame. This episode would have bee much better without the vampire in the morgue. Just let the whole thing be about Joyce's death and leave the monsters out it for an episode.

[Nick Kal]

I'm one of the four Buffy fans in the world that absolutely hated The Body.

It was a good episode for about ten minutes. Then the Scoobies showed up and ruined it, particularly Anya who is a character I never ever liked and especially hated in this episode.

And the end of the episode was so entirely lame. This episode would have bee much better without the vampire in the morgue. Just let the whole thing be about Joyce's death and leave the monsters out it for an episode.

I love Anya. I think her reaction was so heartbreaking because she voiced all these minute things you don't think about when it comes to death and she was probably most human in this episode than she had been the whole series.

And, I think the whole point of the Vampire was to show just how weak Buffy was and that this natural death was something all involved couldn't handle so they each changed... Buffy became a child, Xander who is childish became an angry man who punched walls, once again Anya more human than she has ever been...

[SnowTrooper]

Buffy had some of the greatest episodes of the whole series. And the whole Dark Willow thing was sweet. All I can think is that there are a lot of bitter Tara fans out there.

And season 3 of Angel is when we finally got to see scruffy Wesley. I wouldn't go gay for scruffy Wesley but if you put a gun to my head and said pick a man well scruffy Wesley would surely be at the top of my list.

I love season 6 of Buffy for 3 reasons.

1. Emotions. Tara dying and Willow going all evil out of love and hate.
2. The Trio. Funniest batch of villians I can ever recall in a TV show.
3. Once More With Feeling. 'Nuff said.

The whole Holtz/Sahjahn/Connor storyline and the development of Badass Wesley is the reason why season 3 of Angel is my favorite.

[Nick Kal]

Anyone else love Clem?

[SlightlyMad]

Who doesn't love Clem?

http://i.imdb.com/Photos/HH/0495262/clem2.JPG

Ladies love cool Clem!