pre crisis superboy vs Mo'nel

[CDTM]

Always wanted to see this.

Who wins?

[Pendaran]

Did they never actually do this one? That's kind of sad.

[Smokey]

hmmmm..i dunno..i dont know if mon el has displayed any huge strength feats like superboy has..i.e. tugging several planets at once..err..i dunno..

[CDTM]

hmmmm..i dunno..i dont know if mon el has displayed any huge strength feats like superboy has..i.e. tugging several planets at once..err..i dunno..

I dunno either. But, Daxamites were stated on numerous occasions as being exactly equal with Superboy/Superman....

..then again, Daxamites were stated as being STRONGER then Superman post crisis, and that hasen't really been the demonstrated case..

[Smokey]

well then i'd say superboy, since IIRC mon el was knocked around by daxamites

[CDTM]

well then i'd say superboy, since IIRC mon el was knocked around by daxamites

I dunno why, but for some reason Mon just strikes me as more of a fighter. He did go right after those Darkseid servents, freezing them up then chasing down Darkseid himself, where he got put in a coma... Just seems more agressive.

But maybe Superboys kicked some ass himself...

[Smokey]

i think mon el would probably be more aggressive, it would only get interesting once he pissed superboy off, then i dont know if he could handle it seeing as superboy is equal to a daxamite, but if superboys equal wouldnt superman be stronger then a daxam?

[CDTM]

i think mon el would probably be more aggressive, it would only get interesting once he pissed superboy off, then i dont know if he could handle it seeing as superboy is equal to a daxamite, but if superboys equal wouldnt superman be stronger then a daxam?

They're both young. And anyways, PC characters basically had their max power levels as an infant.

[Gumbo Maximillian]

Except Mon-El was in his twenties while Superboy was in his teens.

[CDTM]

Except Mon-El was in his twenties while Superboy was in his teens.

You sure about that? I could've sworn the Legion had an age cut off, which was sometime after 16-18 or so, and then they kicked out the former member after memory wiping him.

[CDTM]

http://members.shaw.ca/legion_of_super-heroes/constitution/

Looks like it's just a limit for induction, not expulsion.

[Gumbo Maximillian]

Well; I remember he was definately older than clark, too old to go to the school with him and he had to pretend to be a salesman who travelled the country.

[CDTM]

But if all members must have at least one unique power, then how does Ultra Boy and Mo'nel coexist? Ultra Boy basically has all the powers a daxamite does, only he can use them one at a time.

Or how about Superboy being a member?

It also says no one with artificial powers could be a member. Guess that rules out Captain America or Iron Man.

And yet, didn't Brainiac 5 have nothing but his tech? So what's his genuine super power?

[Gumbo Maximillian]

Don't forget Supergirl and Saturn Girl, not the telepathic one.

[CDTM]

Don't forget Supergirl and Saturn Girl.

You're right. I think Supergirl was just a reservist though, so they might have different standards... But, I'm pretty sure Superboy was a bona fide full member.

[raoulduke]

But if all members must have at least one unique power, then how does Ultra Boy and Mo'nel coexist? Ultra Boy basically has all the powers a daxamite does, only he can use them one at a time.

Or how about Superboy being a member?

It also says no one with artificial powers could be a member. Guess that rules out Captain America or Iron Man.

And yet, didn't Brainiac 5 have nothing but his tech? So what's his genuine super power?

Being SUPER-smart can be considered a power.

And where does it say they must have at least one unique power? All I can find is they must have one GENUINE super power.

[CDTM]

Being SUPER-smart can be considered a power.

And where does it say they must have at least one unique power? All I can find is they must have one GENUINE super power.

It was stated in the same story where Wildfire becomes a member. Basically, he was denied because all the powers he was showing off were one's existing members already had.

[raoulduke]

It was stated in the same story where Wildfire becomes a member. Basically, he was denied because all the powers he was showing off were one's existing members already had.

Then how'd he become a member?

[CDTM]

Then how'd he become a member?

He saved colossul boys life by taking off his mask and emtying out his anti energy. They all thought he was dead, and it took him awhile to make his way back to Legion headquarters and wish himself back in his suit with The Miracle Machine or some plot device related thing.

So I guess his desperation attack counts as unique enough, although maybe it wouldn't have mattered after proving his character like he did.

[Mr. X]

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/47820374406.1.GIF

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/01436986896.339.GIF

:D

Anyhow, a bit more on topic, in the 70's I know Mon-El was a bit below Superboy. Last time they went after Grimbor, before Zero Hour, Mon-El said "I'm almost the equal of Superboy! How could this hurt me?". And I remember hearing that more than once...

[Smokey]

im leaning more towards superboy too

[CDTM]

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/47820374406.1.GIF

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/01436986896.339.GIF

:D

Anyhow, a bit more on topic, in the 70's I know Mon-El was a bit below Superboy. Last time they went after Grimbor, before Zero Hour, Mon-El said "I'm almost the equal of Superboy! How could this hurt me?". And I remember hearing that more than once...

The second comic looks for sure like one of those pretend to fight and foil the villian comics.

But was the first one for real?

[Mr. X]

Hell If I remember, been forever and a day since I've touched any older Legion stuff. :(

[SiliconDream]

You sure about that? I could've sworn the Legion had an age cut off, which was sometime after 16-18 or so, and then they kicked out the former member after memory wiping him.

Silver Age Legion's cutoff age for joining was 18, but they had no rules about dumping you once you got older than that. You may be thinking of their kicking out and mindwiping Superboy and Supergirl, but that wasn't because they got too old (once it was because of a Kryptonite cloud that made them useless in c30, later Superboy quit for personal reasons.)

PC Superboy said at least once that Mon-El was stronger than him, when they were fighting Omega. That makes sense, since
a) Mon-El was at least three years older than Superboy (he was 18 in his first appearance, and still physically that age when he joined the Legion, while Superboy was 15 at the time) and
b) Mon-El was a trained space explorer to start with, so presumably was unusually physically capable before he even got his powers.

That was in 1979...Mr. X, was the Grimbor fight before or after that? You mentioned Zero Hour, but that was a typo, right?

Probably Superboy surpassed Mon-El as he grew to his full stature, but I bet he was weaker early on.

*Edit* and no, that fight on "The Lad Who Wrecked The Legion" cover wasn't for real. That was a hallucination induced in the other Legionnaires by Command Kid, one of the Legion's approximately 10 billion new members who were secretly villains. :)

[CDTM]

Silver Age Legion's cutoff age for joining was 18, but they had no rules about dumping you once you got older than that. You may be thinking of their kicking out and mindwiping Superboy and Supergirl, but that wasn't because they got too old (once it was because of a Kryptonite cloud that made them useless in c30, later Superboy quit for personal reasons.)

PC Superboy said at least once that Mon-El was stronger than him, when they were fighting Omega. That makes sense, since
a) Mon-El was at least three years older than Superboy (he was 18 in his first appearance, and still physically that age when he joined the Legion, while Superboy was 15 at the time) and
b) Mon-El was a trained space explorer to start with, so presumably was unusually physically capable before he even got his powers.

That was in 1979...Mr. X, was the Grimbor fight before or after that? You mentioned Zero Hour, but that was a typo, right?

Probably Superboy surpassed Mon-El as he grew to his full stature, but I bet he was weaker early on.

*Edit* and no, that fight on "The Lad Who Wrecked The Legion" cover wasn't for real. That was a hallucination induced in the other Legionnaires by Command Kid, one of the Legion's approximately 10 billion new members who were secretly villains. :)

Hnn... So, Superboy and Mon-El never went at it for real?

For that matter, did the Daxamite have feats up there with Supes, like time travel, planet moving, or what have you?

[SiliconDream]

Hnn... So, Superboy and Mon-El never went at it for real?

For that matter, did the Daxamite have feats up there with Supes, like time travel, planet moving, or what have you?

Oh, sure. He flew to a distant galaxy, located a rare element and came back in "mere minutes;" fought a star-eating creature (not "the" Sun-Eater) inside the Sun and heat-visioned him so hard that even this critter (who was perfectly comfortable with stellar temperatures, obvously) fled within instants; and created a new anti-gravity element by merging three elements and "rearranging their molecules" via super-rubbing. And that was just in his Legion application exam!

He also broke the time barrier all the time, just like Superboy. So did Ultra Boy and Flash, for that matter.

[Pendaran]

it would be hilarious if they had M'onel in the new Legion book, if he ever shows, be that drunkenly powerful. It won't happen, but it would be priceless.

[CDTM]

Oh, sure. He flew to a distant galaxy, located a rare element and came back in "mere minutes;" fought a star-eating creature (not "the" Sun-Eater) inside the Sun and heat-visioned him so hard that even this critter (who was perfectly comfortable with stellar temperatures, obvously) fled within instants; and created a new anti-gravity element by merging three elements and "rearranging their molecules" via super-rubbing. And that was just in his Legion application exam!

He also broke the time barrier all the time, just like Superboy. So did Ultra Boy and Flash, for that matter.

O_o Ultra Boy??

Funny thing about him, he's supposed to be able to use only one power at a time...

You'd think that'd stop him from being able to punch someone, or move at super speed and have his invulerabiliy protect him, but that's never really the case.

[Fallman]

O_o Ultra Boy??

Funny thing about him, he's supposed to be able to use only one power at a time...

You'd think that'd stop him from being able to punch someone, or move at super speed and have his invulerabiliy protect him, but that's never really the case.
With super strength, whatever causes the body to be super strong must be upping the muscles, bone, and skin to match, otherwise they would tear themselves apart. Hence someone being able to punch with superstength without being invulnerable. Superstrength automatically confers comperable superdurability as a facet of the increased muscle and bone strength.

With the super speed, the above applies. I guess his super speed comes with the standard speedster adaptations.

I think that each of his powers automatically gives him the adaptations to use it without self-mutilation, otherwise his heat vision would fry his eyes and face, and he'd have a hell of a time inflating his invulnerable lungs.

[Pendaran]

I have never comprehend why they bothered with Ultra Boy, I can see wanting to have multiple Supermans around, but, an extra, degraded Superman made pathetically redundant?

[CDTM]

I have never comprehend why they bothered with Ultra Boy, I can see wanting to have multiple Supermans around, but, an extra, degraded Superman made pathetically redundant?

Yeah, he did seem pointless.

His "handicap" wasn't exactly pronounced either, from what I've seen of Great Darkness.

[SiliconDream]

it would be hilarious if they had M'onel in the new Legion book, if he ever shows, be that drunkenly powerful. It won't happen, but it would be priceless.

It kinda happened in the reboot, with the White Triangle Saga--basically, a bunch of racist Daxamites go on a galactic killing spree. They weren't exactly pre-Crisis, but they were buffer than Superman...flying at high FTL and such. The Legion got completely owned (until they won via the twin plot devices of Brainiac 5 and Element Lad).

It was kind of a story that begged to be told...what's the point of amassing a bunch of people from various planets with various powers when one of the planets is populated by Superman clones?

Sadly, though, I think the time of "transmuting elements by rubbing them really hard" has passed, along with "blowing Earth back into its orbit" and "sailing an FTL longboat through an asteroid storm by hand." Writers just don't snort that much Windex in one sitting anymore. :)


I have never comprehend why they bothered with Ultra Boy, I can see wanting to have multiple Supermans around, but, an extra, degraded Superman made pathetically redundant?

At least a couple of his powers were better than Superboy's...his vision could see through and melt lead (in fact his vision was his only power originally), and IIRC it was occasionally mentioned that his invulnerability was superior. I wish they'd gone ahead and done that with his other powers--it'd be cool if his one-power limitation was balanced by each power being above-Kryptonian.

Without that, though, he does come off pretty poorly next to the Kryptonians and Daxamites. But then so do Ferro Lad, and Blok, and Timber Wolf...all strong and/or fast and/or tough in some combination, but all inferior to the real Superguys in every way.

Ultra Boy's currently the Legion heavy hitter...we're expecting Valor/Mon-El to show up soon, possibly after the whole Infinite Crisis deal, and it'll be interesting to see Jo's reaction to being outshined.

[Pendaran]

See, all those other guys have a shtick though that plays into their name, character, personality, and so forth. Ultra Boy's specific shtick is "I can use one of Superman's powers, one at a time"

[SiliconDream]

With super strength, whatever causes the body to be super strong must be upping the muscles, bone, and skin to match, otherwise they would tear themselves apart. Hence someone being able to punch with superstength without being invulnerable. Superstrength automatically confers comperable superdurability as a facet of the increased muscle and bone strength.

Actually, the editors mentioned once (and it showed up in a couple of stories) that Ultra Boy can't use his strength as effectively as Superboy, precisely because he can't be truly invulnerable at the same time. So he becomes fatigued faster if he's holding up something heavy for a while, and he risks sprains and torn ligaments and that kind of thing.

But as CDTM says, that kinda goes out the window when it's time for a fight scene. Hell, Ultra Boy held his own against Mon-El in a fight in the Silver Age (though he had to force Mon-El to rescue some folks so he could finally escape.)

And sometimes it looked an awful lot like he was using all his powers. I mean, he once swung a ship around and around on the end of a rope, so fast it broke into hyperspace! That's gotta take speed/flight and strength and invulnerability. I don't even remember which one the writer said he was using.

Oh, I was wrong about the time barrier thing; you need a speed-invulnerability combo to do that. Ultra Boy could survive in the timestream unprotected, but needed to travel with Superboy or Mon-El to get there in the first place. For the same reason, he couldn't fly to other planets under his own power.

[SiliconDream]

See, all those other guys have a shtick though that plays into their name, character, personality, and so forth. Ultra Boy's specific shtick is "I can use one of Superman's powers, one at a time"

Timber Wolf didn't. He just had vaguely pointy ears and big eyebrows. Other than that, he wasn't wolfish in the slightest (nor did his origin or powers have anything to do with wolves.)

Ultra Boy didn't even have all of Superman's powers--no breath, no hearing, no super-IQ. But at least he was gangsta! After the Silver Age, anyway. He got to be the Legion's permanent Bad Boy eventually, and they reeeally needed one...

[Fallman]

Actually, the editors mentioned once (and it showed up in a couple of stories) that Ultra Boy can't use his strength as effectively as Superboy, precisely because he can't be truly invulnerable at the same time. So he becomes fatigued faster if he's holding up something heavy for a while, and he risks sprains and torn ligaments and that kind of thing.

But as CDTM says, that kinda goes out the window when it's time for a fight scene. Hell, Ultra Boy held his own against Mon-El in a fight in the Silver Age (though he had to force Mon-El to rescue some folks so he could finally escape.)

And sometimes it looked an awful lot like he was using all his powers. I mean, he once swung a ship around and around on the end of a rope, so fast it broke into hyperspace! That's gotta take speed/flight and strength and invulnerability. I don't even remember which one the writer said he was using.

Oh, I was wrong about the time barrier thing; you need a speed-invulnerability combo to do that. Ultra Boy could survive in the timestream unprotected, but needed to travel with Superboy or Mon-El to get there in the first place. For the same reason, he couldn't fly to other planets under his own power.
Just saying that there's a good science reason for him to be able to fight effectively at that level. A reason that his ribs don't crack from Mon-El punches. At least, not right off. And I imagine that his fists would start to hurt fairly quickly.

[Pendaran]

He had a distinct identity beyond "I can use all of Superman's powers, one at a time", even if your power set is just "am generally tough", ok, you're generally tough guy, with a motif, and so forth, Ultra Boy's concept is literally "all of Superman's most notable powers, but of far less versatile utility with them!", all he was missing was a U on his chest, or perhaps a less than sign, and a Superman shield.

[Fallman]

He had a distinct identity beyond "I can use all of Superman's powers, one at a time", even if your power set is just "am generally tough", ok, you're generally tough guy, with a motif, and so forth, Ultra Boy's concept is literally "all of Superman's most notable powers, but of far less versatile utility with them!", all he was missing was a U on his chest, or perhaps a less than sign, and a Superman shield.
Enh. On the one hand, he didn't measure quite up to Superman. On the other hand, who did? He still had a bunch of useful powers, so it wasn't like he just sat around. He certainly rated above people like Bouncing Boy, Star Boy, and the Legion of Substitute Heroes.

[Pendaran]

See.. but they all have a sort of flavour to them, if you will. Bouncing boy, he's, y'know, Bouncing Boy. Timber Wolf, rarrh, he's tough wolflike guy, tough like a wolf is tough. Karate Kid, with all the, well, Karate. Cosmic Boy, he's all with cosmic forces.

But Ultra Lad..

"Ultra Lad? Is that like Super Boy?"

"Yes, but, uh, not quite."

Ultra Lad! Ultra in the sense of not being quite Super! If you follow me. I guess making him the bad boy sort of made him stand out more later on. I mean his name was practically "not quite Superman".

The name itself seems to intentionally invite direct comparison, in which he comes up wanting.

Whereas Mon-El, sure, the name invites comparison too, but the guy is basically Supes' equal, so that comparison should be there.

[Fallman]

See.. but they all have a sort of flavour to them, if you will. Bouncing boy, he's, y'know, Bouncing Boy. Timber Wolf, rarrh, he's tough wolflike guy, tough like a wolf is tough. Karate Kid, with all the, well, Karate. Cosmic Boy, he's all with cosmic forces.

But Ultra Lad..

"Ultra Lad? Is that like Super Boy?"

"Yes, but, uh, not quite."

Ultra Lad! Ultra in the sense of not being quite Super! If you follow me. I guess making him the bad boy sort of made him stand out more later on. I mean his name was practically "not quite Superman".

The name itself seems to intentionally invite direct comparison, in which he comes up wanting.

Whereas Mon-El, sure, the name invites comparison too, but the guy is basically Supes' equal, so that comparison should be there.
Random Legionaire: "So,your whole deal is being not quite Superboy? That kinda sucks."

Ultr Boy: "Look, I might not be Superboy, but you are nowhere near not quite Superboy, so if you don't fuck off about, I'll kick your head into another galaxy, got it?"

Random Legionaire: "Uh, yeah."

Anyway, I always thought that Ultra was better than Super, with Mega not being as good as Super.

Not saying he has as good a theme or anything, just that he isn't useless or anything.

[Hecate]

Didn't they say the Daximites are stronger than Kryptonians? I don't know much about Mo'nel but Superboy has a whole host of impressive feats under his belt.
I'd go with Superboy on this one.

[CDTM]

He had a distinct identity beyond "I can use all of Superman's powers, one at a time", even if your power set is just "am generally tough", ok, you're generally tough guy, with a motif, and so forth, Ultra Boy's concept is literally "all of Superman's most notable powers, but of far less versatile utility with them!", all he was missing was a U on his chest, or perhaps a less than sign, and a Superman shield.

What's Timber Wolfs deal anyways? Is he basically Legions version of Wolverine, minus the adamantium? Street/meta level?

[CDTM]

Didn't they say the Daximites are stronger than Kryptonians? I don't know much about Mo'nel but Superboy has a whole host of impressive feats under his belt.
I'd go with Superboy on this one.

They said that post crisis.

And really, it's not demonstrated by the stories, especially these days.. I suppose the fact Supes was nearly killed by an inexperienced, younger Lar Gand aka Mon-El might've played into that though. It was a close fight still...

But that sort of went out the window when they decided to write an Eclipsed Superman defeat Captain Marvel and swat Lobo like a bug, and then later have normal Supes beat Eclipsed Lar Gand, on the surface of the moon with the air knocked out of his lungs.

[Mr. X]

What's Timber Wolfs deal anyways? Is he basically Legions version of Wolverine, minus the adamantium? Street/meta level?

Pre-Crisis he was a bit below Superboy, Mon-El and the like. It never really showed though. He'd flip around and tear something big out of the ground, but the "I'm almost as strong as Superboy" never really shined through. Lack of true, powerful flight probably didn't help, as almost every feat back then centered around flight, usually in space. :D

After Zero Hour, yeah, he's a lower lever metahuman. Right after the five year gap, when he mutated to his uppermost, uh, powerful form, he was Daxamite level. Lobo still casually kicked his ass. :(

[CDTM]

Pre-Crisis he was a bit below Superboy, Mon-El and the like. It never really showed though. He'd flip around and tear something big out of the ground, but the "I'm almost as strong as Superboy" never really shined through. Lack of true, powerful flight probably didn't help, as almost every feat back then centered around flight, usually in space. :D

After Zero Hour, yeah, he's a lower lever metahuman. Right after the five year gap, when he mutated to his uppermost, uh, powerful form, he was Daxamite level. Lobo still casually kicked his ass. :(

O_o What, is Lobo's immortality extending into Legion time?

[Mr. X]

Silver Age Legion's cutoff age for joining was 18, but they had no rules about dumping you once you got older than that. You may be thinking of their kicking out and mindwiping Superboy and Supergirl, but that wasn't because they got too old (once it was because of a Kryptonite cloud that made them useless in c30, later Superboy quit for personal reasons.)

PC Superboy said at least once that Mon-El was stronger than him, when they were fighting Omega. That makes sense, since
a) Mon-El was at least three years older than Superboy (he was 18 in his first appearance, and still physically that age when he joined the Legion, while Superboy was 15 at the time) and
b) Mon-El was a trained space explorer to start with, so presumably was unusually physically capable before he even got his powers.

That was in 1979...Mr. X, was the Grimbor fight before or after that? You mentioned Zero Hour, but that was a typo, right?

Probably Superboy surpassed Mon-El as he grew to his full stature, but I bet he was weaker early on.

*Edit* and no, that fight on "The Lad Who Wrecked The Legion" cover wasn't for real. That was a hallucination induced in the other Legionnaires by Command Kid, one of the Legion's approximately 10 billion new members who were secretly villains. :)

No, no typo. What I meant was this. The last time that The Legion fought Grimbor, you know, when he was trying to "chain the earth" and he was holed up in his castle? Pretty much the last time they fought him before Zero Hour. Wait, no, didn't Grimbor appear after the five year gap? He was a sadistic animal trainer after ZH. Hurm, sorry for the confusion.

About Omega, god, badass. "More powerful than Validus". It was also said in that comic that Validus didn't know the meaning of hate. Nice way to elaborate on a character when he isn't even there. :D

[Mr. X]

O_o What, is Lobo's immortality extending into Legion time?

Heh, well, back then he wasn't immortal. I mean, it hadn't been established in the comics yet, just long lived I suppose.

[CDTM]

No, no typo. What I meant was this. The last time that The Legion fought Grimbor, you know, when he was trying to "chain the earth" and he was holed up in his castle? Pretty much the last time they fought him before Zero Hour. Wait, no, didn't Grimbor appear after the five year gap? He was a sadistic animal trainer after ZH. Hurm, sorry for the confusion.

About Omega, god, badass. "More powerful than Validus". It was also said in that comic that Validus didn't know the meaning of hate. Nice way to elaborate on a character when he isn't even there. :D

O_O There was a more powerful character then Validus???

Who wasn't Darkseid?

Anyone here have a pic and/or list or powers/feats?

[Mr. X]

Well, you know Mangog right? Made up of the hate of billions and billions of beings? Well, Omega was a being created by The Miracle Machine by an insane Braniac 5, the embodiment of all the hate in the universe. He wasn't too too much more powerful than Validus, I mean, he didn't dwarf him or anything.

Feats? He took apart a stellar Legion roster. Wildfire let him have everything he had, I mean EVERYTHING. Blew apart the Legion headquarters, Inertron and all. Omega didn't much care. Superboy, Mon-El, they were just getting batted around space... I think Mon-El only got hit once anyway but that was enough for him. Omega was struck by The Karate Kid, after Val found his weak spot. Val just didn't have the strength to affect it though, kind of like Karnak and The Hulk. Then again, Karate Kid isn't strong enough to affect Validus. But, who was it... Umbra I think affected the nerves in Validus' hands once to make him drop her. Didn't hurt him at all, but still.

Omega was stopped when Matter Eater Lad ate the Miracle Machine, went insane in the process. It was invulnerable to everything else, so yeah. God, amazing story.

[CDTM]

Well, you know Mangog right? Made up of the hate of billions and billions of beings? Well, Omega was a being created by The Miracle Machine by an insane Braniac 5, the embodiment of all the hate in the universe. He wasn't too too much more powerful than Validus, I mean, he didn't dwarf him or anything.

Feats? He took apart a stellar Legion roster. Wildfire let him have everything he had, I mean EVERYTHING. Blew apart the Legion headquarters, Inertron and all. Omega didn't much care. Superboy, Mon-El, they were just getting batted around space... I think Mon-El only got hit once anyway but that was enough for him. Omega was struck by The Karate Kid, after Val found his weak spot. Val just didn't have the strength to affect it though, kind of like Karnak and The Hulk. Then again, Karate Kid isn't strong enough to affect Validus. But, who was it... Umbra I think affected the nerves in Validus' hands once to make him drop her. Didn't hurt him at all, but still.

Omega was stopped when Matter Eater Lad ate the Miracle Machine, went insane in the process. It was invulnerable to everything else, so yeah. God, amazing story.

So that's when the fabled miracle machine eat happened.

Would you by chance know the issue?

[Mr. X]

Superboy and The Legion of Super Heroes 250 methinks. :)

You know, if you want, I can pretty much send you every Legion comic, ever. All of Superboy and The Legion, everything after the five year gap... Yadda Yadda Yadda. :)

[Mr. X]

Oops, the actual eating of the MM happened in #251. :)

[SiliconDream]

Pre-Crisis he was a bit below Superboy, Mon-El and the like. It never really showed though. He'd flip around and tear something big out of the ground, but the "I'm almost as strong as Superboy" never really shined through. Lack of true, powerful flight probably didn't help, as almost every feat back then centered around flight, usually in space. :D

And wasn't remotely wolflike until the five-year-gap. Except that occasionally someone would brainwash him and he'd go "Raarrgh!" Other than that...well, strength and toughness and "super-acrobatics" don't scream "wolf" to me.

Since the whole point of his original "Lone Wolf" moniker was that he didn't want to join the Legion, I dunno why they didn't just scrap the name entirely once he did join...


After Zero Hour, yeah, he's a lower lever metahuman. Right after the five year gap, when he mutated to his uppermost, uh, powerful form, he was Daxamite level. Lobo still casually kicked his ass. :(

Was he Daxamite level? Not in invulnerability, certainly...I remember he got shot by a couple of Science Police and got pretty badly wounded.

My favorite version of T-Wolf was actually Gail Simone's, in the last few issues of the Reboot Legion. Basically Pre-Crisis Timber Wolf with a healing factor and super-senses added. Some people claimed it made him a Wolverine clone, but since Cockrum's Wolverine design was inspired by T-Wolf, I figure turnabout is fair play.


O_o What, is Lobo's immortality extending into Legion time?

That wasn't the real Lobo...it was a clone or Probe created by Darkseid.

Though as of DC 1 Million, Lobo survived past Legion times up until the 853rd century, when he left for another universe.

[Mr. X]

Was he Daxamite level? Not in invulnerability, certainly...I remember he got shot by a couple of Science Police and got pretty badly wounded.

My favorite version of T-Wolf was actually Gail Simone's, in the last few issues of the Reboot Legion. Basically Pre-Crisis Timber Wolf with a healing factor and super-senses added. Some people claimed it made him a Wolverine clone, but since Cockrum's Wolverine design was inspired by T-Wolf, I figure turnabout is fair play.

That wasn't the real Lobo...it was a clone or Probe created by Darkseid.

Though as of DC 1 Million, Lobo survived past Legion times up until the 853rd century, when he left for another universe.

Well, I remember it being said when he was going feral on one of B.I.O.N's clones that he was Daxamite level. And Daxamites got really pathetic at one point, so feh. :(

"Set your guns to Daxamite level!" :D

I forget about the clone thing, feh. :(

Any idea what Lobo was like in the 853rd? Did it say why he left? Did he... change?

[SiliconDream]

Well, I remember it being said when he was going feral on one of B.I.O.N's clones that he was Daxamite level. And Daxamites got really pathetic at one point, so feh. :(

"Set your guns to Daxamite level!" :D

Ah, so that would have been later in the 5YL stuff...after Giffen left and the Bierbaums got a little silly, yes? :)


I forget about the clone thing, feh. :(

Any idea what Lobo was like in the 853rd? Did it say why he left? Did he... change?

He was a fat slob. Basically, the universe got way too nice for him. No one needed the services of a hired killer anymore, so he hired himself out as a circus act. "See the fabled prehistoric monster!" kind of thing.

Finally, a clone of Darlene took pity on him and wanted to give him purpose for his life. She hired him to kill a villain she thought was fictional, but turned out not to be. Lobo got back on the job, killed a few members of some Justice Legion auxiliary, made an adjacent galaxy go homicidally insane via telepathic link, and headed out of the universe through a black hole in pursuit of the villain.

[Mr. X]

Ah, okay, thanks a bunch, it's appreciated. :)

I thought he might of turned over a new leaf or something, but nope, I should of known better. :D

He seems to be an overweight loser in the Kingcom Come timeline too...

[Dracon]

I have never comprehend why they bothered with Ultra Boy, I can see wanting to have multiple Supermans around, but, an extra, degraded Superman made pathetically redundant?

Sorry for the thread necromancy.

Also none of supermans weaknesses.

Doesn't lose his powers under a red sun (most common star in the universe, you'd think the legoins spacetravelling would have touched on that)

Not affected by kryptonite, can see through lead, etc.

Did Ultra Boy have any weaknesses of his own, beyond the one-power thing?

[Captain Morgan]

Hey, what happened to the GLC in LoSH time periods?

[Rik Levins]

Sorry for the thread necromancy.

Also none of supermans weaknesses.

Doesn't lose his powers under a red sun (most common star in the universe, you'd think the legoins spacetravelling would have touched on that)

Not affected by kryptonite, can see through lead, etc.

Did Ultra Boy have any weaknesses of his own, beyond the one-power thing?

Yes, it was established that there was a type of radiation that would affect him like kyrptonite, whether or not he was using invulnerability. It appeared in one or two stories, but was simply referred to as "radiation", nothing specific about what kind of radiation. Personally, I didn't like that idea; if he only has one power at a time, then, dammit, he shouldn't have any weaknesses.

Silicon: was it ever specifically stated that Mon-El was STRONGER than Superboy, or did they just say, "more POWERFUL"?
The latter was commonly acknowledged, I recall, simply due to the fact that Mon had none of Superboy's weaknesses. He was already immune to kryptonite, and Brainy's serum protected him from lead and red-sun radiation. But I can't remember anyone actually saying he was stronger, in the sense that he would win an arm-wrestle. (Granted it's been a couple of centuries since I read those books, so my memory could easily be at fault.)

I do, however, recall one scene (don't ask me which book), in which Superboy, Mon-El, and Ultra Boy were gathered around some kind of super-bomb that was about to go off and destroy the planet (or the universe, or the galaxy, or something--anyway, it was going to really fuck things up if they didn't get in close and contain the blast).
Afterward, Mon-El and Ultra Boy were out cold, while Superboy was still on his feet (though he looked like he was coming off a three-day bender).

From that instance, I always assumed that Pre-Crisis Superboy was [Church Lady Voice] just a liiiiiitttllllle bit superior to Daxamites [/Church Lady Voice].

[Sharpandpointies]

I do, however, recall one scene (don't ask me which book), in which Superboy, Mon-El, and Ultra Boy were gathered around some kind of super-bomb that was about to go off and destroy the planet (or the universe, or the galaxy, or something--anyway, it was going to really fuck things up if they didn't get in close and contain the blast).
Afterward, Mon-El and Ultra Boy were out cold, while Superboy was still on his feet (though he looked like he was coming off a three-day bender).


Oooo! I had that one. Then Karate Kid showed up with a space-cop, and Modru turned out to be one of the guys wearing cloaks!

Edit: Okay, that made little sense.

Yeah, it was some kind of massive space bomb, and there were one or two more people trying to contain it, one of them the nuclear guy. And only Superboy was left awake (on one knee).

[SiliconDream]

Silicon: was it ever specifically stated that Mon-El was STRONGER than Superboy, or did they just say, "more POWERFUL"?

Literally stronger. For instance,

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y92/silicondream/LSH/superboylsh250-13.jpg

and

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y92/silicondream/LSH/Action-384-28-08.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y92/silicondream/LSH/Action-384-29-09.jpg

Generally, Superboy would make noises about Mon-El being stronger, and Mon-El would make noises about them being equal. I tend to credit them both with equal modesty and say Mon-El was slightly stronger at first, thanks to being to being bigger, older and more experienced; as they aged, though, Superboy/man eventually surpassed him by a similarly small margin.


I do, however, recall one scene (don't ask me which book), in which Superboy, Mon-El, and Ultra Boy were gathered around some kind of super-bomb that was about to go off and destroy the planet (or the universe, or the galaxy, or something--anyway, it was going to really fuck things up if they didn't get in close and contain the blast).
Afterward, Mon-El and Ultra Boy were out cold, while Superboy was still on his feet (though he looked like he was coming off a three-day bender).

Superboy & the LSH 244, apparently. Note that Superboy was apparently hit so hard he couldn't access his powers for a while!

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y92/silicondream/LSH/SuperboytheLegionofSuperheroes24-1.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y92/silicondream/LSH/SuperboytheLegionofSuperheroes244-2.jpg

We could explain that away via Superboy happening to take a slightly smaller fraction of the total blast, just because his body's a little smaller...or we could just say he has a little more heart than Mon-El. Especially when the narration invokes the whole "He will one day be Superman, most über of heroes" deal, which for PC Superboy was much the same as a $200 debt is for Luke Cage.

Feats-wise, I think Mon-El did slightly better against a number of foes than Superboy did, though you can plead extenuating circumstances a lot of the time.

Validus: Superboy stunned himself ramming Validus and then got stomped while he was on the ground in a daze. Mon-El tried the same trick on Validus, and although he just bounced off too, he wasn't notably injured either; then Validus threw him through a planet and he just came right back.

The Atomic Axe: Superboy grabbed the Axe and the Persuader used it to take control of his body, and forced him to smack himself; the blow left him actually paralyzed for a few minutes. Mon-El took an Axe swipe to the head and was merely stunned for a few seconds, and in a later fight he blocked the Axe with his arm and took no real damage--he was just rubbing his arm after the impact, while the Persuader was KOed by the blast.

The Emerald Eye: Superboy kicked it and it didn't budge. Mon-El punched it and knocked it a few hundred feet, although it wasn't otherwise fazed.

Karate Kid, in his own series: Val stalemated Superboy in a straight fight and later managed to KO him. Earlier, he was quarreling with the other Legionnaires over something and, just after KOing Lightning Lad, he threw a punch "that could shatter steel" at Mon-El. Who caught it in one hand without blinking. It wasn't a very serious fight, though; just one of those Xmen-ish "We can only express our interpersonal emotional conflicts through violence!" deals.

[Rik Levins]

Heh.

Okay, that's just overkill, you convinced me with that first link. :p

[SiliconDream]

Heh.

Okay, that's just overkill, you convinced me with that first link. :p

Well, it's a subtle enough difference that I figured it needed examples. Most of the time they were treated as simple equals.

And I like Mon-El more, so I want to make sure it's not just bias. :-)

[Froggy]

Superboy and The Legion of Super Heroes 250 methinks. :)

You know, if you want, I can pretty much send you every Legion comic, ever. All of Superboy and The Legion, everything after the five year gap... Yadda Yadda Yadda. :)

that'd be kewl sir