Ultimate X-Men #41 - A Contradiction?

[Brian Cronin]

Tossing in a slightly different perspective- Bendis's run certainly wasn't my favorite. The Wolverine arc felt padded out and ultimately unnecessary, though it did have some fun moments. But there was a terrific single-issue story in there that's well worth checking out (sorry, can't remember the number), and the run as a whole certainly wasn't terrible... just not exactly the most memorable either.

-D

Even THAT issue, though, Drew, looks really bad when you reread the entire run, as it totally contradicts everything Millar did during his run on the book.

-Brian

[Hi-Fi]

Even THAT issue, though, Drew, looks really bad when you reread the entire run, as it totally contradicts everything Millar did during his run on the book.

-Brian

Why do you think that, Brian? Care to explain? :)

BTW, i though Millar's run was awesome, Brian's was good and Vaughan's is perfect!

One of the best books out there!

[Brian Cronin]

Millar does 33 issues of "pacifism! pacifism!" and Bendis has Xavier kill a little kid because of fear of bad publicity.

Magneto attacks the US directly, and Xavier spares him; this kid accidentally kills a bunch of people, and Xavier has him murdered?

Doesn't jibe for me.

-Brian

[Hi-Fi]

Makes sense...but see, Xavier didn't know how to help this kid, and whose to say Logan did it by himself without consulting Xavier?

Oh, and Xavier is kinda of a proud selfish man(in his way). I can see he trying to reform Magneto just to prove he can do it...

But you're right, its kinda of a condradiction...

[Brian Cronin]

Xaiver didn't know how to help him, so he kills him?

Does that sound at all like the Xavier of the first 33 issues?

If Logan DID do it on his own, then yeah, that'd be different, but the story (I just reread it right now just to make sure ;)) certainly indicated that he was there on Xavier's orders, what with the cover story of the chemical leak and all.

-Brian

[Siddon]

Xaiver didn't know how to help him, so he kills him?

Does that sound at all like the Xavier of the first 33 issues?

If Logan DID do it on his own, then yeah, that'd be different, but the story (I just reread it right now just to make sure ;)) certainly indicated that he was there on Xavier's orders, what with the cover story of the chemical leak and all.

-Brian

I don't think you got the really dark side of Xavier, I mean this is the guy that mind-wiped Bobby, left his wife and son, and let a genocidal murderer run around free and clear. The whole point of Xaiver seems to be that as the school becomes more successful he becomes darker and the team starts to fall apart. As for the kid thing it was pretty much a S.H.I.E.L.D. decision that was in Xavier’s benefit.

[Hi-Fi]

I know, i just reread it too....Logan has this paper with what he's suppose to say for the kid...you're right.. : )

[Brian Cronin]

I don't think you got the really dark side of Xavier, I mean this is the guy that mind-wiped Bobby, left his wife and son, and let a genocidal murderer run around free and clear. The whole point of Xaiver seems to be that as the school becomes more successful he becomes darker and the team starts to fall apart. As for the kid thing it was pretty much a S.H.I.E.L.D. decision that was in Xavier’s benefit.

None of which involved murdering an innocent kid because of possible bad publicity.

Xavier was willing to hide Magneto from SHIELD, but not an innocent kid?

-Brian

[Brian Cronin]

I know, i just reread it too....Logan has this paper with what he's suppose to say for the kid...you're right.. : )

Hehe...I like that we both went to reread the issue for clarity's sake. :D

-Brian

[Hi-Fi]

Hehe...I like that we both went to reread the issue for clarity's sake. :D

-Brian

I know! Clarity's sake always in first place! ;)

Are you enjoying Vaughan's run, Brian?

[Brian Cronin]

Are you enjoying Vaughan's run, Brian?

More than Bendis' run. ;)

-Brian

[Beast]

Actually, Xavier didn't order Wolverine to kill that kid. It's left ambigious in the actual storyline, but I believe the recap pages clearly state that it was Fury. I may be wrong on that, I don't have that issue infront of me. The New Mutants storyline does however indicate that it was Fury who sent Wolverine to kill that kid. It's discussed in the President's War Room.

[atoningunifex]

I guess bendis must have realized what a huge mistake he'd made and covered his ass at the first available opportunity.

[Brian Cronin]

I guess bendis must have realized what a huge mistake he'd made and covered his ass at the first available opportunity.

Sounds likely.

EDITED TO ADD that I am pleased that he DID retcon it.

-Brian

[Siddon]

None of which involved murdering an innocent kid because of possible bad publicity.

Xavier was willing to hide Magneto from SHIELD, but not an innocent kid?

-Brian

He wasn't innocent he kind of killed a couple hundred people, stuff like that seems to have consequences.

[Doom Hammer]

Sounds likely.

EDITED TO ADD that I am pleased that he DID retcon it.

-Brian

I'm sure you're exactly right.

In the recap page, it did say that SHIELD issued the assignment, but I doubt that was the original intention...

[Brian Cronin]

He wasn't innocent he kind of killed a couple hundred people, stuff like that seems to have consequences.

Sure, there should be consequences.

But death by Xavier isn't one of them.

Note that apparantly even BENDIS admitted that it didn't make sense, by retconning it so that it was Fury, not Xavier, who ordered the hit.

-Brian

[Siddon]

Sure, there should be consequences.

But death by Xavier isn't one of them.

Note that apparantly even BENDIS admitted that it didn't make sense, by retconning it so that it was Fury, not Xavier, who ordered the hit.

-Brian

Do you really think it was a retcon or do you think it was a clarification because I thought Fury sent Wolverine the first time I read the story. And its not like Xavier is above killing kids whose powers go all wacky, he did it before.

[Brian Cronin]

When did Xavier kill kids whose powers went wonky?

-Brian

[Hi-Fi]

I'm glad Bendis cleared up that it was Fury, not Xavier...so no contradiction anymore : )

[Brian Cronin]

I'm glad Bendis cleared up that it was Fury, not Xavier...so no contradiction anymore : )

Me too. :)

-Brian

[Grendel0606]

He wasn't innocent he kind of killed a couple hundred people, stuff like that seems to have consequences.
He WAS innoncet as he was a victim of his powers.

[Brian Cronin]

He WAS innoncet as he was a victim of his powers.

Agreed.

Which is interesting to note that perhaps this is an early indication of the "evil Nick Fury" that we are beginning to see in Ultimates Vol. 2.

-Brian

[Siddon]

When did Xavier kill kids whose powers went wonky?

-Brian

He killed his kid when his powers went wonky which also meant killing Betsy. It was kind of a big deal, they did a whole arc on it.

[Beast]

He killed his kid when his powers went wonky which also meant killing Betsy. It was kind of a big deal, they did a whole arc on it.
That's a bit unfair. The kid in #41 and his son are very different cases. For one, Proteus was insane, mad with power, and planning to kill the X-Men, as well as millions of others. He nearly murdered Bobby, and did a great deal of damage to poor Beast. They had no choice but to kill him in that case, because he was killing of his own choice and desires. :)

[Siddon]

That's a bit unfair. The kid in #41 and his son are very different cases. For one, Proteus was insane, mad with power, and planning to kill the X-Men, as well as millions of others. He nearly murdered Bobby, and did a great deal of damage to poor Beast. They had no choice but to kill him in that case, because he was killing of his own choice and desires. :)

Mad with power or mad because of his power

[Brian Cronin]

He killed his kid when his powers went wonky which also meant killing Betsy. It was kind of a big deal, they did a whole arc on it.

As Beast points out, there is a big difference between the two HAD Xavier killed Proteus.

However, such explanations are unneccesary....

For Xavier DIDN'T kill Proteus, remember?

Colossus did it on his own.

Xavier couldn't bring himself to do it,remember?

Betsy was screaming at him to kill her, Moira was screaming at him to kill her son, but he couldn't do it, for Charles states, "No, there must be another way, Moira. I refuse to accept that...that...barbarism is the only solution to the problem at hand."

And then Colossus comes up from behind and crushes Psylocke's body with a car.

So if Xavier couldn't bring himself to kill somoene THERE, then he certainly isn't going to kill a kid for the reasons specified in #41.

-Brian

[Siddon]

As Beast points out, there is a big difference between the two HAD Xavier killed Proteus.

So if Xavier couldn't bring himself to kill somoene THERE, then he certainly isn't going to kill a kid for the reasons specified in #41.

-Brian

Well if you want to split hairs he didn't kill the kid in 41 either, Wolverine did.

Going back to poor David's death

Remember how the issue ended, Xavier even said at the end of this drama that he was careless and naive and that it made him even more dangerous.

Bendis wrote a story, some fans didn't get it, Bendis explained himself in the recap to help you guys out.

The only mistake here, was done by the readers who didn't pay attention to the progress of the story, so try and find out something else to complain about Bendis.

[Brian Cronin]

If you by splitting hairs you mean that in the first example, Xavier did not kill anyone and professed his abject disdain for killing, and in the second, he ordered an X-Man to kill someone (until Bendis thankfully retconned it), then we are agreed.

-Brian

[Siddon]

If you by splitting hairs you mean that in the first example, Xavier did not kill anyone and professed his abject disdain for killing, and in the second, he ordered an X-Man to kill someone (until Bendis thankfully retconned it), then we are agreed.

-Brian

But he never ordered an X-man to kill Wolverine now did he? You read the scene and thought Xavier sent him to kill the little fella but now that I've read it again I am convinced that the problem with the issue was that your reading comprehension was lacking. As harsh as it is (and as strongly as you don’t want to believe it) Bendis didn’t make a mistake with his story, you did.

Lets go with rhetorical question number 2

the piece of Paper Wolverine has
“Says here your mutation, your specific mutation deals radiates toxins and acid-like poisons”

now does that sound like information derived from
A.) a pacifist Telepath
B.) a fuzzy mutant with memory issues
C.) the head of a militaristic branch of the government

Don’t ban me

[The Lucky One]

Millar does 33 issues of "pacifism! pacifism!" and Bendis has Xavier kill a little kid because of fear of bad publicity.

Whether it was originally intended to be Xavier who ordered the hit, or Nick Fury, I'm sure we'll never know. But with a universe like this one, you're never going to get the perfect balance, because some writers want to change everything and some want things to be as similar as possible. (Really, the bigger continuity contradiction was Ellis's depiction of the Logan/Fury relationship in Ultimate Nightmare.)

I'm biased, of course- Millar's depiction of a liberal Xavier who won't kill no matter what, but will cheerfully manipulate anyone and everyone in his way with no scruples whatsoever, never really did it for me. When it comes down to it, I'd rather a guy has a ton of empathy but is willing to kill if absolutely necessary, rather than wants to save everyone but has no actual emotional attachment to them. Mileage will vary, of course.

-D

[Brian Cronin]

Whether it was originally intended to be Xavier who ordered the hit, or Nick Fury, I'm sure we'll never know. But with a universe like this one, you're never going to get the perfect balance, because some writers want to change everything and some want things to be as similar as possible. (Really, the bigger continuity contradiction was Ellis's depiction of the Logan/Fury relationship in Ultimate Nightmare.)

I'm biased, of course- Millar's depiction of a liberal Xavier who won't kill no matter what, but will cheerfully manipulate anyone and everyone in his way with no scruples whatsoever, never really did it for me. When it comes down to it, I'd rather a guy has a ton of empathy but is willing to kill if absolutely necessary, rather than wants to save everyone but has no actual emotional attachment to them. Mileage will vary, of course.

-D

Oh, sure, if you didn't LIKE Millar's approach to Xavier, then sure, it makes sense that you would dig Bendis' approach in #41.

-brian

[Brian Cronin]

But he never ordered an X-man to kill Wolverine now did he? You read the scene and thought Xavier sent him to kill the little fella but now that I've read it again I am convinced that the problem with the issue was that your reading comprehension was lacking. As harsh as it is (and as strongly as you don’t want to believe it) Bendis didn’t make a mistake with his story, you did.

Lets go with rhetorical question number 2

the piece of Paper Wolverine has
“Says here your mutation, your specific mutation deals radiates toxins and acid-like poisons”

now does that sound like information derived from
A.) a pacifist Telepath
B.) a fuzzy mutant with memory issues
C.) the head of a militaristic branch of the government

Don’t ban me

Xavier has a device that alerts him to mutants.

A mutant shows up whose power kills hundreds of people.

And Xavier doesn't know?

Does that follow?

-Brian

[Go Go]

Or did Xavier know the kid was a mutant but didn't realize the effect the kid's powers would have until they manifested?

[Siddon]

Xavier has a device that alerts him to mutants.

A mutant shows up whose power kills hundreds of people.

And Xavier doesn't know?

Does that follow?

-Brian

The points isn't acknowledgment rather its a point of specifics. Sure Xavier would know about a mutant boy, but he wouldn't have the chemical information now would he. Plus you would be completely ignoring the whole under Shield/government plot change that occured at the end of Millers run.