The Editors

[The Fury]

They are not doing their job.


After iGotKittyPryde told me how the Editors are responisble for the bullcrap story currently being told in Phoenix Endsong (no bad on Greg Pak or Greg Land who have to work with it). And this post by Fishtaco:

They never seem to do their job by stopping a writer making a move that goes against continuity. They apparently didnt even stop him when Quentin Quire was using telekinesis.

Where were they when Scott Lobdell completely screwed up Rogue's history with Mystique?

Where were they when Rob Liefeld used Forearm (who is dead) in his new X-Force series.

Where were they when Rob Liefeld was misusing Spiral by having her insult Shatterstar because he has a spine?

Where are they for art errors?

Where were they when Claremont brought back Masque (who is dead)?

Editors should never write stories.

It makes me think that they really aren't doing their job at all. If they are they are doing a crap job of it.

Phoenix Endsong is filled with bullcrap like:

Cyclops' blast not affecting Emma Frost even when she was only in Diamond form. It should have punched her through a wall. She's not the blob.

And Phoenix needing Cyclops blast energy to survive? what crap is that? Seriously.

And Quentin now all of a sudden alive and having TK. Even the small fact that Angel is in Endsong when he's not even at the mansion a the moment.

They really need to keep an eye on their books and do thier job.

[PhoenixBoyX]

::hugs::
-Nick, who can't help but agree on a few of those.

[Titanium]

Quinten never actually died, he was going through a secondary mutation and now he's done and has more power.

[The Fury]

Quinten never actually died, he was going through a secondary mutation and now he's done and has more power.
No, he died. Editors bought him back told the above for the Phoenix story. And just becuase that stupid character looked a little like him at the end of 'Here Come Tomorrow'.

[foxfire]

Even the small fact that Angel is in Endsong when he's not even at the mansion a the moment.


This doesn't bother me too much, because I guess you can justify it as different story arcs being told at different times in the MU.

But yeah I definately agree about the editors and continuity. To me, it seems that editors have two main jobs: obvious editing stuff, and making sure that contradictions aren't made in stories. Im sure some are going to come and argue "Who cares if a writer uses a second-rate character that died 10 years ago in a story?", but I disagree with that. It's a shared universe with a common history for a reason.

[DDM]

Comatose Marvel editors are somnabulist gatekeepers. It's great they can edit words phrases, paragraphs, diagram sentences, but they know squat about the history of the Marvel Universe. All Marvel editors should have an intense comprehensive history lesson about the Marvel Universe--or lose their jobs outright. All of these editorial mistakes keep piling up into an embarrassing stinking mess.

Jim Shooter kept a tighter ship in the 70's & 80's; however, unlike Joe Quesada, Shooter knew what he was doing.

[fishtaco]

Here are some more:

When Sebastion Shaw came back from the dead without reason in X-Force 49.

Bob Harras not letting some of Claremont's incredible stories to be published (ask DDM for some examples).

Where were they when Akira Yoshida brought back AOA Dani Moonstar apparently back from the dead?

They fail to realize that the upcoming Kitty mini is a "little" bit like Wolverine: Soultaker, being that it is in Japan, has ninjas, is by the same writer, etc. Yet they failed to realize that and granted him the book, even about a year ago when Claremont proposed a series called X-men: Year Zero that had some very interesting plans.

They make writers lean towards altering their stories so that they could be understood by new readers when they can just put in those little notes at the bottom of the panel like they used to.

They hype, hype, and hype about House of M and other books like Astonishing

Where were they during the "Draco"?

Where were they when Joss Whedon went against the Dead is Dead rule? Because that led up to more resserections.

Where were they during the Sex Sells Grant Morrison issue?

Where were they during the Draco when Mystique was already in use?

Where were they to tell John Cassaday that he is drawing the wrong Xavier Institute design?

Where were they to notify Joss Whedon that Kitty was already at the mansion?

Where were they when Jim Shooter used Magneto in his Secret Wars when he was already being used?

Where were they in the Fall of the Mutatnts X-over when Pestilence died, and then another writer killed him off, apparently not paying attention to what happened in the last issue of the X-over?

my god editors can be pathetic.

[Tenebrae]

Editors have always made continuity errors. In the grand scheme of things, considering just how much continuity there is and how many titles are published a month, featuring thousands and thousands of characters, they've done pretty well overall. For many many years they ran a tight enough ship that a Crisis/Zero Hour style massive retcon has never been even remotely necessary.

Lately, though, continuity mistakes and characters acting differently to what we've come to expect has become more common. I tend to doubt its just because all of a sudden the editors are too lazy to bother checking their facts (though I'm sure that's the case with a handful of them and probably always has been). I think, instead, their focus is somewhere else.

Whether its an overall editorial mandate or not, I have no idea, but Marvel is much more interested in telling stories spread across a certain amount of issues that can be slotted into trade paperbacks, without the complication of tons of history having to be explained alongside it. They'd rather the characters fitted into those stories in a more simplistic way. Continuity is less important than telling the story the writers and editors want to see told, the story they hope will sell the best. And maybe they're not all wrong to do that. I don't like it myself (I can't express my fury when Skin's name was wrong on his gravestone) but Marvel is a business first, the art comes second. I can understand their need to sell more books. I do think they run the risk of losing the audience they already have in the process, however.

This is a generalisation, of course, and all just my opinion. Its probably a little more charitable than assuming Marvel's staff just doesn't give a crap though.

[StarsAndGarters]

I have one thing to say: bring back editor's notes!

If you want another thing, here's a bonus: bring back editors who know enough to write editor's notes!

[Rachel Grey]

I have one thing to say: bring back editor's notes!

If you want another thing, here's a bonus: bring back editors who know enough to write editor's notes!

Amen, ma brothah! Aaaaaaamen!

[HellFrost]

Here are some more:
They hype, hype, and hype about House of M and other books like Astonishing

Where were they when Joss Whedon went against the Dead is Dead rule? Because that led up to more resserections.

Where were they to tell John Cassaday that he is drawing the wrong Xavier Institute design?

Where were they to notify Joss Whedon that Kitty was already at the mansion?

Although I agree on certain issues, I have this to say:

gee... one sided much...

[Twigglet]

Here are some more:


Bob Harras not letting some of Claremont's incredible stories to be published (ask DDM for some examples).


They fail to realize that the upcoming Kitty mini is a "little" bit like Wolverine: Soultaker, being that it is in Japan, has ninjas, is by the same writer, etc. Yet they failed to realize that and granted him the book, even about a year ago when Claremont proposed a series called X-men: Year Zero that had some very interesting plans.

my god editors can be pathetic.

If the editors didn't let them be used, ever thought because their was a very good reason, or the fact that the story wsa just plain crap. Hell if a series called X-men:Year Zero was scrapped it would probably be because the editors didn't think it would sell at all, or it was a crap idea.

People seem to forget the great job the editors do, without editors the Phoenix saga would only be a good story, instead of one o the best X-men reads,

[Bryan Rios]

Yeeah, I'm with HellFrost and Twigglet here. And while they do make their fair share of mistakes, most also don't do so bad.

[jetter_cheeze]

No, he died. Editors bought him back told the above for the Phoenix story. And just becuase that stupid character looked a little like him at the end of 'Here Come Tomorrow'.

My interpretation is that he transcended to something more than human. he became one with the phoenix force in the white hot room. Thus he became like jean and a bit of the phoenix force is what is driving him.

Am i wrong? Did I miss something?

Curious....

[Grendel0606]

No, he died. Editors bought him back told the above for the Phoenix story. And just becuase that stupid character looked a little like him at the end of 'Here Come Tomorrow'.

Umm, that actually was supposed to be Quentin. It's in Morrison's script.

Apart from that, I agree on a lot of what you say. Editors have to do a lot to make sure the book comes out, but most of them aren't continuity nuts, and it would be great if Marvel hired somebody like Peter Sanderson who read through the titles and made sure that continuity problems don't occur.
BTW, where did you hear that Endsong was an editorially mandated story? Just curious.




Where were they when Akira Yoshida brought back AOA Dani Moonstar apparently back from the dead?
According to Yoshida it's supposed to be her sister Dana. The one that made so many appearances in the MU. THAT sister.



Where were they when Joss Whedon went against the Dead is Dead rule? Because that led up to more resserections.
There was no real "dead is dead " rule. That was just a ruse to make readers believe Magneto had really bought it.

Where were they during the Sex Sells Grant Morrison issue?
What was the problem about the issue? It was just a small gag.


Where were they during the Draco when Mystique was already in use?
No big problem either. The Draco (horrible as it was) took place before Mystique 1 and unlike the Mystique series it offered an explanation (such as it was) as for how Mystique had returned from Abyss' ...umm... abyss.



Where were they to notify Joss Whedon that Kitty was already at the mansion?
Is that really a problem either? Kitty had joined the X-treme team and later returned tot he mansion under very sudden circumstances. Wouldn't it amke sense that she took some time off (before Astonishing 1) to return to Chicago and take care of her apartment, taking a sabbatical from university, all that stuff?

Where were they when Jim Shooter used Magneto in his Secret Wars when he was already being used?
Again, I don't get it. Where was Magneto used at the time (to my memory he wasn't) and why does it matter, as all 12 issues of Secret Wars usually took place between two issues of a title (e.g. Uncanny X-Men #180 & 181)

[The Dosadi Experiment]

If the editors didn't let them be used, ever thought because their was a very good reason, or the fact that the story wsa just plain crap. Hell if a series called X-men:Year Zero was scrapped it would probably be because the editors didn't think it would sell at all, or it was a crap idea.

People seem to forget the great job the editors do, without editors the Phoenix saga would only be a good story, instead of one o the best X-men reads,

Yashida also had a brilliant idea for the Age of Apocalypse. And apparantly The Draco was also good enough to get published... gee and here you are, connecting editors and their descisions with quality... boy, you're pretty fearless aren't you?

Claremont's age-old story about Wolverine becoming and evil bastard emplyed by the Hand was veto'ed because of the characters involved, they didn't want to take the risk with their cash-cow.

Millar comes along, and guess what we get, a rather meaningless fluffy story about Wolverine going evil and working for the Hand. It's Claremont-lite, with an idea as the main storyline, but eventually Millar creates a whole that is lacking in actual story and development. A hollow reminder of an old idea he stole... I mean... 'borrowed' or 'got inspired by'.

[Twigglet]

Yashida also had a brilliant idea for the Age of Apocalypse. And apparantly The Draco was also good enough to get published... gee and here you are, connecting editors and their descisions with quality... boy, you're pretty fearless aren't you?

Claremont's age-old story about Wolverine becoming and evil bastard emplyed by the Hand was veto'ed because of the characters involved, they didn't want to take the risk with their cash-cow.

Millar comes along, and guess what we get, a rather meaningless fluffy story about Wolverine going evil and working for the Hand. It's Claremont-lite, with an idea as the main storyline, but eventually Millar creates a whole that is lacking in actual story and development. A hollow reminder of an old idea he stole... I mean... 'borrowed' or 'got inspired by'.

See, I don't assume everything I hate was crap, didn't Austens Draco sell more than Claremonts latest run on the book? As well as the AOA series and the recent Millar Wolverine run? Millars run has been definitly well received as a good book, Claremonts idea could of been similar but went in a completly different way which the readers didn't like.

[fishtaco]

If the editors didn't let them be used, ever thought because their was a very good reason, or the fact that the story wsa just plain crap. Hell if a series called X-men:Year Zero was scrapped it would probably be because the editors didn't think it would sell at all, or it was a crap idea.

People seem to forget the great job the editors do, without editors the Phoenix saga would only be a good story, instead of one o the best X-men reads,
From what Claremont posted on X-fan, his idea was certainly not crap. It would probably sell well, too. Marvel does not think straight, since they reject an idea like that but grant Akira Yoshida an X-man/FF mini just for sales. Wasnt that book 3.50?

[fishtaco]

Is that really a problem either? Kitty had joined the X-treme team and later returned tot he mansion under very sudden circumstances. Wouldn't it amke sense that she took some time off (before Astonishing 1) to return to Chicago and take care of her apartment, taking a sabbatical from university, all that stuff & 181)Thats only a theory. Joss didnt take the time to explain. Too wraped up in his unsubtle showings of nostalgia with Kitty's memories of the Xavier Institute. It isnt like she hasnt been there in like 20 years. The title of AXM was called ProfessorX is a jerk! That is just unsubtle nostalgia that has nothing to do with the plot at all. Where are the editors for stuff like that.

[Twigglet]

From what Claremont posted on X-fan, his idea was certainly not crap.

Yeah, well to be honest, a lot of writers describing thier idea could probably make it sound good. X4 was obviously commisioned to have a tpb to coincide with the F4 movie, thus fans of the X-men and F4 movie have somethign to pick up.

What the hell is wrong with commisioning a book just for sales? THATS WHAT EVERY SINGLE MARVEL BOOK OUT THIER IS FOR.

[Grendel0606]

Thats only a theory. Joss didnt take the time to explain. Too wraped up in his unsubtle showings of nostalgia with Kitty's memories of the Xavier Institute. It isnt like she hasnt been there in like 20 years. The title of AXM was called ProfessorX is a jerk! That is just unsubtle nostalgia that has nothing to do with the plot at all.
Kitty was reminiscing about her times as a student, as she was returning for the first time as a teacher, not to mention to a rebuilt version of the mansion she hadn't been to before. Ok, I get that you don't like the story, but why the heck should editors do something about the way the presents the storyline? Examples like this one seem to be splitting hairs to me.

[The Fury]

My interpretation is that he transcended to something more than human. he became one with the phoenix force in the white hot room. Thus he became like jean and a bit of the phoenix force is what is driving him.

Am i wrong? Did I miss something?

Curious....
The Phoenix chooses who it inhabits, I can see your reasoning and understand if Morrison even wrote that as Quentin. but he had no connection to the Phoenix ever and ot me that mkaes no sense. But he died. To me anyway.


BTW, where did you hear that Endsong was an editorially mandated story? Just curious.
From another poster and it's a big rumour going around the net.

There was no real "dead is dead " rule. That was just a ruse to make readers believe Magneto had really bought it.
So, we had to wait years for Colossus and Psylocke to stay dead? Claremont had the plan of killing Psylocke only to bring her back in X-treme X-men, he couldn't becuase of this rule, that is real and Joe Q came up with it. Morrison had the Magneto/Xorn idea from the begining of his run and he used it. All the editors had to do is say that no one could use Mags until Morrison was done with him.

As soon as Wheodn came aboard and bought Colossus back, it was open season again. Character came back to the writers that wanted them, Psylocke (which was not a bad thing), and then all the stupid ones in X-froce (which were bad).

[Huzzah!]

well dead means dead was a fake rule, thus they really couldnt break it until we got the turd known as planet x.

[Bryan Rios]

I thought the Dead is Dead rule was tossed out the window when the Planet X arc was done?

Thats only a theory. Joss didnt take the time to explain. Too wraped up in his unsubtle showings of nostalgia with Kitty's memories of the Xavier Institute. It isnt like she hasnt been there in like 20 years. The title of AXM was called ProfessorX is a jerk! That is just unsubtle nostalgia that has nothing to do with the plot at all. Where are the editors for stuff like that.
Yes, it's only a theory, but it's a theory that makes sense. It's not like Kitty is going to return to the school to help rebuild only to suddenly forget about her life in Chicago, or to forget that everything she has is there. And "Professor Xavier is a Jerk!" was not title. Kitty was looking back (possible as a teacher) and remembering times he had as a student.

[Huzzah!]

well to be honest she might not have stayed that long nor saw it finished until then.

[Fede]

u know, when u talk about those things and such mistakes, is when i dislike marvel. not the x-men, not the stories (well, some of them), but the people in charge. they should worry less about the money and much more about their readers.
we have tons of books, and some of them are really crap. but do they really care?and what about the movies they're making? money is the only thing that matters

couldnt they have little chats with their readers? hear about their complains, and then, satisfying us? cause we're the ones that matter

[The Fury]

couldnt they have little chats with their readers? hear about their complains, and then, satisfying us? cause we're the ones that matter
I guess the Letter pages are exactly that, but they aren't really any good. they rarely publish them much. If they do they will select the good and bad ones that they have answers for.

But worst of all. There are no letters pages for miniseries like Endsong, no way we can voice our grievence. Maybe what they should do is have a representitive post at boards like this, but have it in a Mod controlled thread where the Mod feeds in the answers to the questions we ask. So it doesn't get out of control.

[newscott]

I think asking where the editors are for poor story decisions is different that asking about glaring errors with contenuity. Forearm and Masque coming back to life with no explanation is different than a bad story making it to print.

[The Dosadi Experiment]

See, I don't assume everything I hate was crap,

Draco was crap, quality wise, I can be objective and call it crap, I can be subjective and call it crap.

The new Age of Apocalypse, without emotional attachment, looking at it from an objective angle, I can still call it crap.

but that isn't relevant, because you've twisted my words around. I never said anywhere that these two were crap in the message you replied to, I made a comment about their quality, but then again, low dirty tactics aren't all too uncommon, now are they?

Especially seeing how you ignore the point I made. If you say that editors value quality and be objective in passing a story, then there shouldn't be any stories published lacking in quality as much as the two examples I gave you. You connected editors and published material with quality.

Yes, truly, you've convinced me, the nineties were a decade of utter and complete quality!

didn't Austens Draco sell more than Claremonts latest run on the book?As well as the AOA series and the recent Millar Wolverine run?

Oh this is rich indeed. You simply must turn this into a Claremont bashing game, musn't you? Because all the while you go and moan about how you don't assume that everything you hate is crap, you make a comment like this.

But you don't have your eyes covered with runny cow-manure, so I think of you not as a complete inbred moron, and point out that not even you are as hopelessly dimwitted as to believe that sales equal quality.

Millars run has been definitly well received as a good book,

And most people also comment on it being rather fluffy and light. Which was my original comment. We get a story that's fluffy and meaningless. That doesn't mean that people can't enjoy it anymore. I haven't heard anyone say that Miller's Wolverine is a deep and meaningful book, one which resonates through the entire line, a paragorn of brilliance, a gathering of excellence.

Claremonts idea could of been similar but went in a completly different way which the readers didn't like.

Really, how do you know? My oh my, such strong convictions for such a little individual... you've actually visited this weird alternate dimension in which Claremont's plans were actually excecuted?

[Huzzah!]

I dont see why anyone would care that masque is alive. Its not like it couldnt have faked its death to get out of morlock duties.

[streator]

editor mistakes i can think of, and these are rather anal:
an uncanny issue where nortstar was blinding the lobo werewolves and the effect was not shown by the coloring whatsoever
completely getting skin's name wrong on his tombstone in 427
m not being able to fly away from the plane as it crashed in austen's hope arc 410 or 411 (he admitted not knowing she could, editors missed it as well)
sage's facial tattoos disappearing for the beginning of claremonts recent run 444-until i think the arc when park illustrated her
havok's scar being there/not being there
gambit being super-powered and the leader of both guilds in his series during revolution, yet under claremont none of these developments are shown
colossus and rogue kissing with no effect in xmen 100
the 2 lady masterminds in uncanny and xxm (casey was using the one previously shown, claremont decided to remake her blonde and change her name to regan wyngarde or something; they were written off as sisters later on)
is cassandra nova ernst or not
how many guthries are there and why do their names change from appearance to appearance
exodus not being revealed as 'magneto' until the end of the uncanny 99 annual, yet the issue is spoiled by having him prominently on the cover
blackheart no longer being involved in the hellfire club
as of now, "courtney ross" in uncanny
yukio being paralyzed and potentially never walking again in wolverine 174-175, yet flying high in her next appearance (im pretty sure it was xxm, the arena)
mimic not being a mutant, so in 379 he shouldnt have lost his powers with all the other mutants
donald pierce returning after being captured by khyber in wolverine 130's, he was basically a head at that time
locus and tempo changing races, appearances