Would Jean Be As Popular Today If She Stayed Dead?

[Cyke]

And by staying dead, I mean before she was resurrected in the 80s for X-Factor.

I ask because I just finished 1602, and last year I finished the whole Earth X trilogy, and the Phoenix entity makes appearances in both. Plus, of course, the Phoenix has the cameo in the movie and she's a legend now.

But would Jean/Phoenix still be popular today if she stayed dead? Twenty years is a long time, and I think most readers (like myself) have pretty bad memories. :)

[DDM]

Yes, considering The Dark Phoenix Saga is still in print.

[someone777]

And by staying dead, I mean before she was resurrected in the 80s for X-Factor.

I ask because I just finished 1602, and last year I finished the whole Earth X trilogy, and the Phoenix entity makes appearances in both. Plus, of course, the Phoenix has the cameo in the movie and she's a legend now.

But would Jean/Phoenix still be popular today if she stayed dead? Twenty years is a long time, and I think most readers (like myself) have pretty bad memories. :)

Then maybe. But now Marvel may have to bring her back. Now that This Scot and Emma thing is slowly starting to bring the hole X-Men fame down. :evilangry

[Brian M.]

How's Bucky doing?

[The Fury]

Becuase of the way she died, her sacrifice and the epicness of the moment.

Yes.

[The Fury]

How's Bucky doing?
Popularity wise? Don't know, he's just Cap's Dead sidekick.

That question should be asked for Captain Marvel.

[someone777]

Becuase of the way she died, her sacrifice and the epicness of the moment.

Yes.

You do know that Emma is slowly bring the X-men fame down. And DC is starting to take over what Marvel and the X-Men had. :evilangry

[atoningunifex]

I think she'd be thought of as a more itneresting chracter had she stayed dead. now she's just the chick who dies and comes back.

[iGotKittyPryde]

You do know that Emma is slowly bring the X-men fame down. And DC is starting to take over what Marvel and the X-Men had. :evilangry

Um, since you mentioned it two posts ago, I'm fairly sure we know that's how you feel...

[Flight]

I've always liked Jean. She's always secretly had a thing for Havok

[atoningunifex]

I've always liked Jean. She's always secretly had a thing for Havok


She's also a Scots man named Bryn.

[The Fury]

You do know that Emma is slowly bring the X-men fame down. And DC is starting to take over what Marvel and the X-Men had. :evilangry
Febuary sales sugest otherwise, I'm afraid.

http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/6620.html

30 of the Top 50 are Marvel books.

[someone777]

Febuary sales sugest otherwise, I'm afraid.

http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/6620.html

30 of the Top 50 are Marvel books.

That still lesser then what there where getting. And I said slowly. :eek:

[Flight]

That still lesser then what there where getting. And I said slowly. :eek: From when?
Emma and Scott have been together for ages now. The thought was there from at least 4 years ago in the New X-Men 2001 Annual

[someone777]

From when?
Emma and Scott have been together for ages now. The thought was there from at least 4 years ago in the New X-Men 2001 Annual

Look DC is getting all the wins and Marvel is getting all the misses. ASTONISHING is a good comice even that the writter hate Emma. And it's NEW AVENGERS that's the top one. ASTONISHING was top one now it's two. And X4 was grat at frist but in the end. Well it scuked!!! so Jean sacrifices herself to lave it in the hands of some who tolks to Mystery person to get rid of Kittey. Good one Jean. :(

[PhoenixBoyX]

I wonder, too. The thing is her return gave us years and years of new stuff...there'd be no Grey-Summers kids, there'd be no Return to Phoenixness, X-Factor probably would have happened differently, resulting in either no Inferno or just Illyana in Inferno...it would be a very hard thing to qualify. Makes a GREAT "What If," but my opinion is if she were dead then, she'd probably have some fan base, but there wouldn't be the legions of us...I mean, she'd've lasted from issue 1-66, then 94-whenever she left, then 121-136...and to me, that less than 100 issue run where she wasn't consistently there....it just wouldn't be the same Jean
-Nick

[Flight]

Look DC is getting all the wins and Marvel is getting all the misses. ASTONISHING is a good comice even that the writter hate Emma. And it's NEW AVENGERS that's the top one. ASTONISHING was top one now it's two. And X4 was grat at frist but in the end. Well it scuked!!! so Jean sacrifices herself to lave it in the hands of some who tolks to Mystery person to get rid of Kittey. Good one Jean. :( Don't you tell me to 'look'
How is New Avengers being the number 1 comic a win for DC and a miss for Marvel?
Are you on crack? Are you 7 years old? I don't understand that bit about Jean and Kitt"e"y

[The Fury]

Look DC is getting all the wins and Marvel is getting all the misses. ASTONISHING is a good comice even that the writter hate Emma. And it's NEW AVENGERS that's the top one. ASTONISHING was top one now it's two. And X4 was grat at frist but in the end. Well it scuked!!! so Jean sacrifices herself to lave it in the hands of some who tolks to Mystery person to get rid of Kittey. Good one Jean. :(
I'm confused about your point here.

Marvel can't be getting misses with sales like that.

They have signed many exclusives and got them selves a writer that is helping push their book.

It's not not in the red any more, It's making profit.

Astonishing being at No 2, to NA another Marvel book? Not really a sad thing for Marvel there.

And we're talking about Jean's first sacrifice, the one on the moon. Not the Recent event.

[Bryan Rios]

Look DC is getting all the wins and Marvel is getting all the misses. ASTONISHING is a good comice even that the writter hate Emma. And it's NEW AVENGERS that's the top one. ASTONISHING was top one now it's two. And X4 was grat at frist but in the end. Well it scuked!!! so Jean sacrifices herself to lave it in the hands of some who tolks to Mystery person to get rid of Kittey. Good one Jean. :(
Sacrifice herself to leave something up to Emma, who is talking to a "mystery person?" Umm, Jean didn't sacrifice herself to leave Emma in charge, she did it for everybody around her. This has nothing to do with the possibility of somebody wanting to get rid of Kitty. We also don't even know that whoever it is wants to get rid of Kitty.

And another Marvel book selling the highest is by far not a miss to Marvel.

[jetter_cheeze]

You do know that Emma is slowly bring the X-men fame down. And DC is starting to take over what Marvel and the X-Men had. :evilangry

Emma? All by herself? In a team book?


...that bitch.

[PhoenixBoyX]

Emma? All by herself? In a team book?


...that bitch.
:)
10 points.
-Nick

[atoningunifex]

I wonder, too. The thing is her return gave us years and years of new stuff...there'd be no Grey-Summers kids, there'd be no Return to Phoenixness, X-Factor probably would have happened differently, resulting in either no Inferno or just Illyana in Inferno...it would be a very hard thing to qualify. Makes a GREAT "What If," but my opinion is if she were dead then, she'd probably have some fan base, but there wouldn't be the legions of us...I mean, she'd've lasted from issue 1-66, then 94-whenever she left, then 121-136...and to me, that less than 100 issue run where she wasn't consistently there....it just wouldn't be the same Jean
-Nick

Jean had little to do with Cable and Rachel. Rachel is from an alternate timeline where Phoenix didn't die on the moon. She was established after the death adn worked jsut fine as a character. Cable is Scott and Madelyne's son- another character created after Phoenix died but before Jean returned.

Inferno would have probably never happened. it's hard to speculate how Claremont would have gone without the obvious trigger of Scott ditching Maddie to go be with Jean.

I have no idea how you would relate to Jean had she not come back. I don't feel she's progressed much since her return. She became the Phoenix again and died again. OTherwise she's still fundamentally the same character she was when she returned. And her return puts a bit of a damper on a story I like very muchly.

In the end I suppose it doesn't matter much. She came back and she'll be back again. Maybe whoever brings her back will do something besides have her re-enter her relationship with Scott. Maybe a new writer will have her grow more as a person. We can hope.

[iGotKittyPryde]

The thing about this is... Jean dying wasn't the plan, right? So isn't this almost like the Psylocke deal, where it wasn't a question of if she'd be back, it's more when they'd allow her to return.

Jean dying was an editorial decision based on the fact that she'd killed so many people and thus really ought to be punished for it.

I think the more interesting question is: what would have happened had it went the original way and she ended up lobodomized or whatever was supposed to happen to her? Wasn't there some supposed plan about someone reawakening the Dark Phoenix or some such?

[atoningunifex]

The thing about this is... Jean dying wasn't the plan, right? So isn't this almost like the Psylocke deal, where it wasn't a question of if she'd be back, it's more when they'd allow her to return.

Jean dying was an editorial decision based on the fact that she'd killed so many people and thus really ought to be punished for it.

I think the more interesting question is: what would have happened had it went the original way and she ended up lobodomized or whatever was supposed to happen to her? Wasn't there some supposed plan about someone reawakening the Dark Phoenix or some such?

it was an editorial decision but it was a GOOD editorial decision.

When Uncanny X-men 137 happened it was amazingly moving. Highly emotional and truly heroic. her death resonated to the core of the book. Every character was affected by it and things changed because of it.

The editorial decision to bring her back was a weak decision. it was a return to the status quo and invalidated what is arguably the greatest X-Story ever told.

And from what I remember- the original story had Jean's powers blocked from her use. Eventually Magneto was supposed to re-awaken them in 150. I don't know if she was slated to die at that point or what. But I think the opriginal story is far more powerful and said far more about Jean Grey's character than the original plan would have.

[Huzzah!]

well Claremont came around and wasnt in favor of her return if i recall.

[atoningunifex]

well Claremont came around and wasnt in favor of her return if i recall.

I read that Claremont had offered them tessa as a substitute. I wonder how different things would have been if Sage had been a founding memeber of X-Factor.

[Huzzah!]

I read that Claremont had offered them tessa as a substitute. I wonder how different things would have been if Sage had been a founding memeber of X-Factor.

Well i wouldnt hate Cyclops and Jean so much now for one thing. Although one wonders what they would have done with maddie

[PhoenixBoyX]

I read that Claremont had offered them tessa as a substitute. I wonder how different things would have been if Sage had been a founding memeber of X-Factor.
Now that's a What If book. I love Sage and just how Claremont used her. She was a great, creative spin on an older, probably mostly forgotten character. I just hated to see how she left. It kind of makes me wonder how she would have fit into the '91 two book thing...Uncanny/X-Men.

It's so funny but I always think about how one character in a different position changes EVERYTHING. Jean's being dead all this time would have made things like X-Cutioner's song never happen...no legacy virus...no Inferno...no Planet X...a different telepath probably would have come in sooner. We could all be talking about the role TelePrincess, that girl who is dating Scott Summers who is headmistress, and appeared in '85, just as a new X-Book was coming out will play in House of TelePrincess. It would mean the role Rachel Grey has played in Marvel would be very different. Hell, we might have even found out Ray was just Jean with amnesia/fake memories and THAT'S how she came back. Who knows!? What a GREAT thread idea!
-Nick

[PhoenixBoyX]

I JUST THOUGHT OF SOMETHING!

If Jean had stayed dead, this thread wouldn't have happened!
-Nick

[someone777]

I JUST THOUGHT OF SOMETHING!

If Jean had stayed dead, this thread wouldn't have happened!
-Nick

Good one. :D

[atoningunifex]

I JUST THOUGHT OF SOMETHING!

If Jean had stayed dead, this thread wouldn't have happened!
-Nick

I would ahve happened, but in alternate reality where Jean didn't die.

Like this one.

We're, like, totally alternat reality characters. I wonderif House of M will retcon us.

[venuscameback]

I read that Claremont had offered them tessa as a substitute. I wonder how different things would have been if Sage had been a founding memeber of X-Factor.

I think X-Factor with Rachel instead of Jean would have made for a much more interesting book.

It is more interesting for me to follow Atoning's line of thought as to what would have happened between Scott & Maddy had Jean not returned. Would he have eventually come to understand that Maddy was not Jean, would some behavioural differences finally show and come between them? i can imagine a situation like that slowly turning Scott psychotic, giving him a breakdown and leading to a much darker Cyclops.

and while I very much enjoyed the Jamaica Bay scenes in X-Factor #1, I really don't think Scott & Jean would realistically have got back together and so committed so quickly. but I guess the writer and/or editors wanted them serious again, so they were.

I don't think Jean is especially popular now, so I suspect she might have been more popular had she never returned to the books.

The Dark Phoenix Saga is still legendary - and while I understand why Atoning thinks Jean's later stories really messed up that great story I can still happily re-read and ignore all the ret-cons that followed. The ret-cons only affect my enjoyment of any new stories and the stories the ret-cons featured in, not the original - and I think it always would be. Jean's tragic death, if not ret-conned by a Maddy story, would be as magical a moment as ever, but I don't think it would necessarily make the character more popular.

the other problem is that because we would still have Maddy & Rachel in the books, echoes of Jean would abound through x-history; would this make readers hark back to Jean's final story with greater affection, or see it as just one impressive chapter in her family history? it could have gone either way.

If there weren't echoes of Jean throughout the x-universe in characters like Maddy & Rachel, I think Jean would be only mildly popularity, with cult appeal (altohugh the DP Saga would remain iconic and adored). a more popular Bucky - remembered for dying, but not much else, remembered more for that story than for her personality.

The sad thing is, if Jean hadn't been brought back for X-Factor #1, i'm she would have come back later. and if not before then, had Jean's character been included in the film (Maddy or Rachel would be so hard to explain to non-readers, unless they wrote Jean out of x-history altogether and wrote one of them as if they were the original, and not a clone or from the future; which I think fans would hate as it removes what's unique about them and makes them Jean by any other name) then I think at that point we can be sure Marvel would bring her back. and that many fans would be excited about it, moreso than would be complaining.

and I think fans would love to have Jean in that film despite her having been dead in the comics for 20 years - because they'd be drooling over the possibility of a DP Saga film. as many are right now.

so what is most sad about this discussion - and I think it's a fascinating what if question (I'm surprised there hasn't been such a What If issue on this subject) - is that it feels inevitable that Jean would have come back at some point, whether X-Factor #1, later or much later.

venus

[venuscameback]

I would ahve happened, but in alternate reality where Jean didn't die.

Like this one.

We're, like, totally alternat reality characters. I wonderif House of M will retcon us.


*giggles*



ten characters

[DDM]

I wonder, too. The thing is her return gave us years and years of new stuff...there'd be no Grey-Summers kids, there'd be no Return to Phoenixness...
-Nick

Rachel Summers became Phoenix II in Uncanny X-Men #199 before Jean Grey was found alive in Avengers 263, Fantastic Four #286. Phoenix was going to return, but just not as Jean Grey. Claremont had been building Rachel's story for months from Uncanny X-Men #184-209 when she was written out of X-Men for her ill-fated Phoenix limited series which never was published.

[phoenixrising]

I really doubt that if Jean had stayed dead she would even be a factor to any of us fans who starte dreading after 1990. She'd be like Sunfire or Mimic or something....just a team member that was there, then wasn't. I'm (obviously) a huge fan and I doubt I would have even gone back to read the Phoenix Saga in trades if I hadn't read about her in the curren tissues at the time.

Makes me wonder if her popularity would slowly die off if she stays dead this time...

[HellFrost]

I really doubt that if Jean had stayed dead she would even be a factor to any of us fans who starte dreading after 1990. She'd be like Sunfire or Mimic or something....just a team member that was there, then wasn't. I'm (obviously) a huge fan and I doubt I would have even gone back to read the Phoenix Saga in trades if I hadn't read about her in the curren tissues at the time.

Makes me wonder if her popularity would slowly die off if she stays dead this time...
eh... I'd be really pissed if she stayed dead. I love Jean with a mad fiery passion... not be confused with the Phoenix... again... sounded better in me head. Lol.

Maybe on some level her fandom would decrease but for me, once a Jean fan, always a Jean fan. Even if she did almost kill Emma on numerous occasions. :D

[PhoenixBoyX]

eh... I'd be really pissed if she stayed dead. I love Jean with a mad fiery passion... not be confused with the Phoenix... again... sounded better in me head. Lol.

Maybe on some level her fandom would decrease but for me, once a Jean fan, always a Jean fan. Even if she did almost kill Emma on numerous occasions. :D
Yay! EmmaJean love! It's possible to like both! But seriously, one has to wonder if without Uncanny 281, would Emma be a good guy?
-Nick

[DDM]

Yay! EmmaJean love! It's possible to like both! But seriously, one has to wonder if without Uncanny 281, would Emma be a good guy?
-Nick

I doubt it. Claremont would have kept Emma Frost as the White Queen.

[someone777]

I doubt it. Claremont would have kept Emma Frost as the White Queen.

DERR on that. Claremont mader her.

[Neolucifer]

Who knows ? Claremont himself turned bad guys into good ones .
Anyway she has been in the good side for ages , hell she probably shouldnt even get any attitude from a few xmen given their own past .
Besides Emma and Scott had been a more than necessary evil , and a fresh "new" couple , and gave Cyclops a personality he has been missing for years .
Hell it could even be a good thing for any future resurrection of Jean grey , as she might grow to be more than scotty's wife hosting the phoenix :D .

Opinions aside , i cant even believe the silliness of tieing scott and emma to a decline of sales :p :D .

[DDM]

I read that Claremont had offered them tessa as a substitute. I wonder how different things would have been if Sage had been a founding memeber of X-Factor.

Sage's story is more than likely identical what Claremont revealed about her in X-Treme X-Men:


Xavier found Sage the same time he formed the original X-Men, yet he kept her apart from the team.
As a result of her cyberpathy & personality, Sage became Tessa, a spy for Xavier & infiltrating the Hellfire Club through Sebastian Shaw.
The other original X-Men more than likely would not trust Sage at first. Fundamentally, X-Factor would be a different book.
Madelyne may have followed Scott to New York to be with him.


Claremont still has not revealed Sage's complete origin & her link to Xavier & Shaw. All we know is Sage saved both men from harm.

[bakla]

Emma? All by herself? In a team book?


...that bitch.


I haven't laughed out as loud at a post in SO long! thanks!:D:D:D

[bakla]

Well i wouldnt hate Cyclops and Jean so much now for one thing. Although one wonders what they would have done with maddie

Claremont DID have a plan. Scott was to be written off the book by marrying him off to Maddie in Uncanny 175, and they would have lived 'happily ever after in Alaska.' It was stated by Claremont either in person or in an interview - I cant recall where anymore. But John Byrne always despised Phoenix and wanted the original Marvel Girl back, and he was intrumental in finding a way for Marvel Girl/Jean Grey to return for X-factor.

Frankly, I think Jean was rather uninteresting in X-factor during the whole time she was in it, and I can't recall if her popularity had waned then from the time that she was Phoenix. In the time that she wasn't Phoenix, she remained Jean Grey, not even Marvel Girl, and I got the impression that the writers didn't really know what to do with her. The fact that they didn't even give her a codename for so long struck me as their not knowing who she could be (to the point that her not having a codename stuck on both the cartoons and the movies). I thought this was rather telling. Anything after the dramatic sacrifice of Phoenix on the moon was anticlimactic in the story of Jean Grey, which to me is why they reverted her back - the writers just couldn't find a way to make her as interesting.

To answer the question about if Jean would have remained popular if she had remained dead? Probably not so much. Her death would be recognized as a pivotal point in X-men history, but maybe, much like Gwen Stacy's death in Spiderman, its impact would have faded in time. And if they made a movie 20 years after her death, I doubt they would have had Jean in it because why bother? Gwen Stacy wasn't in Spiderman, and Wolverine wasn't in the original X-men yet he was in the movie as a founding character while Beast and Angel have yet to be full X-men.

[Huzzah!]

I think she would have been more popular. It isnt like she has had a good story in the last like 15 years or anything. Better to go out in blaze of glory than to fizzle like she did.

[Cyke]

Yes, considering The Dark Phoenix Saga is still in print.

That's one story. The question is pretty much asking, Would Jean/Phoenix still be widely used today if she hadn't died (especially in Marvel-wide crossovers), would she be in the movies, et all.

The Death of Gwen Stacey is still in print and has been told from different perspectives, but these days MJ has her eclipsed. Whether or not it's justifiable is another matter altogether, but I'm using Gwen Stacey as an example of what *could* happen if Jean stayed dead.

[jeangreydp]

I don't think she'd be as popluar. I would probably not have really gotten to know her character.

Some chick that was killed off before I was old enough to read, who cares?

I don't think I would have thought twice about her, had she not been in comics when I started reading them.

So, I'm glad she came back. And I like X-factor just how it happened. The original 5 are my favs. :)

[DDM]

That's one story. The question is pretty much asking, Would Jean/Phoenix still be widely used today if she hadn't died (especially in Marvel-wide crossovers), would she be in the movies, et all.

The Death of Gwen Stacey is still in print and has been told from different perspectives, but these days MJ has her eclipsed. Whether or not it's justifiable is another matter altogether, but I'm using Gwen Stacey as an example of what *could* happen if Jean stayed dead.

Chris Claremont kept going to back to Jean Grey, Phoenix, in flashbacks after her death throughout Uncanny X-Men or Bizarre Adventures #27. For example, in Uncanny X-Men #145, Storm remembers a conversation she had with Jean about her telepathy. Jean told Storm the problem with being a telepath is not reading people's minds since a telepath's power is always on. Jean had to concentrate to create psi-dampers in order not to read people's minds. Within the same storyline, Storm freed herself from her statue-like prison, but kept drawing on more raw power. Storm transformed herself into a true goddess; she was on the edge of being corrupted by her own mutant powers. However, Colossus shocked Storm to her senses as she remembered Jean Grey being consumed by Dark Phoenix. The shock of her friend's death awoke Ororo to her senses. Ororo released the excess energy high above the Earth & dispersed the hurricane she created.

Another example is when Claremont introduced Madelyne Pryor in Uncanny X-Men #168-175. Madelyne's airplane crashed the moment Jean died on the moon. Pryor looked, acted, & sounded just like Jean Grey--yet she wasn't Jean Grey. Nightcrawler explained the corruption of Phoenix to Rogue, who had just joined the X-Men, & why everyone was forelorn about Phoenix.

Another reminder of Jean Grey is Rachel Summers from Uncanny X-Men #184-209, Annual 9 since she took the name & powers of Phoenix herself.

Claremont was doing this again as recently in X-Treme X-Men through Sage. Sage regretted that she was not able to reach Phoenix in time before she was corrupted by the Hellfire Club.

That's how you keep a dead girl popular. Keep bringing in flashbacks important to the story, although they may appear to be tangents.