Questions about Crisis on Infinite Earths.

[Buried Alien]

Anyone who's read CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS and the DC comics that came before and after the maxiseries knows what a disorganized mess the Post-CRISIS reboots were. When the series ended at issue # 12, the characters were still in Pre-CRISIS mode: that was Earth-1's Superman still mourning his slain cousin Supergirl at the end of CRISIS # 12, and people still recalled the Earth-1 Wonder Woman who had been a founding member of the JLA. The Post-CRISIS reboots didn't take place until several months or even a year later, with the publications of MAN OF STEEL, BATMAN YEAR ONE, and George Perez's new WONDER WOMAN series.

If you take this within the storyline context, there must have been a moment for each of the characters when, unbeknownst to him or her, their realities changed. There must have been a moment when the Earth-1 Superman became the Byrne Superman (without his knowing it, of course), and where the Earth-1 Batman became the Post-Miller Batman (ditto). If you were to write a comic covering the moment of transformation for the major characters, how would you do it? Would they start their day as their Pre-CRISIS selves and end their day as their Post-CRISIS selves, unaware that their lives have been changed forever?

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Tynne]

To their credit, they did have an "in story" explanation at the time: Everyone who was present at the Monitor/Spectre battle before the Beginning of Time kept their old memories, at least for a while.

Of course, this didn't explain things like Brainiac, the Marvel Family, etc. still hanging around in Pre-Crisis mode...but I digress.

I don't know how such a story would be done...mostly because it would be pretty confusing.

Like when a TV series replaces one actor with another for a well known character.

In the context of the series that characters can't refer to it.

So why bother with an entire story where the point is "everything's changed, but no one notices anything so it makes no difference to them, only to the reader"?

[Buried Alien]

It'd be a tough one to pull off, that's for sure, but I think it could be very emotionally involving for readers familiar with both versions of the characters. The story itself would probably deal with a fairly ordinary day in the lives of the characters...almost mundane, except that subtle changes are occurring in their realities that the reader recognizes to be final farewells to an old world.


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[marshal99]

For batman , the switch isn't that apparent from pre-crisis to post-crisis , it just is. The rest like Superman & Wonder woman went through major revamps & reboot , Batman didn't.

[Buried Alien]

For batman , the switch isn't that apparent from pre-crisis to post-crisis , it just is. The rest like Superman & Wonder woman went through major revamps & reboot , Batman didn't.

Batman personally did not experience much of a change, but his supporting cast did. The stories of Dick Grayson, Jason Todd, Jim Gordon, Barbara Gordon, and others (including some villains) were radically modified Post-CRISIS, so Batman's changes are defined primarily through his relationships with his supporting cast.


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Patient Boy]

I think something ala Planetary/Batman would be a nice as an exploration of how the transition happened, with maybe a single character bearing witness to the fact that all these people were oblivious to the fact that in a single instant all time and space had changed forever.

[Buried Alien]

From an illustrator's point of view, the moment of transition can be pretty dramatic and subtle at the same time. For Superman, for example, you can have Superman flying over a Pre-CRISIS looking-Metropolis drawn in the classic Curt Swan style. Then, in the next panel, an almost identical-looking scene except the city is clearly Post-CRISIS, and Superman looks as if John Byrne drew him.


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[JolietJake]

For batman , the switch isn't that apparent from pre-crisis to post-crisis , it just is. The rest like Superman & Wonder woman went through major revamps & reboot , Batman didn't.


Cf. Check out Batman #400. It definately has a "Last Hurrah" feel to it. I.e., It has all of Batman's rogue's gallery escaping from Arkham to wreak havoc on Gotham as well as the final appearances of Pre-Crisis treatments of Batman's supporting cast like Talia, Catwoman, and Jason Todd. Overall, I felt it had a very melancholy and "end-of-an-era" feel to it. Moreover, after Batman: Year One has concluded, the cover title of the series was briefly (thru issue #417) Batman: the New Adventures.

While I would agree that Batman's reboot wasn't as hyped as the others, anyone who followed the series can certainly mark where one era ends and the next begins.

[Paradox]

Hmmm...seems to me the only one that's even a little ambiguous is Batman. He's the only one that had big changes that didn't have a marking point around that time. Supes changed with Man of Steel #1, WW with Wonder Woman #1. Who else changed BIG that didn't have a marker? Justice League of America was changed, but the version at that time wouldn't have had a noticable change. Flash died and Wally took his place, but that wasn't any retconning AND he got a new #1. J'onn's origin changed (a couple of times) but not so's you'd notice anything in the present.

No idea where you'd put Bats. I say, for everyone, it's All-Star Squadron #60, in Aug. '86, when Mechanique finally let the full effects of Crisis hit. I think Roy may have timed it that way on purpose, as that was the last month of the regular Superman titles, followed by "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow" and then rebooting.

[Buried Alien]

No idea where you'd put Bats. I say, for everyone, it's All-Star Squadron #60, in Aug. '86, when Mechanique finally let the full effects of Crisis hit.

I remember that issue. It's hard to believe that a robot had the power to manipulate the DCU's reality like that.

How long was it after the publication of that A.S.S. (love that acronym) issue that MAN OF STEEL # 1, BATMAN YEAR ONE, and WONDER WOMAN # 1 were published?



Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Paradox]

Buried Alien wants dates:

I remember that issue. It's hard to believe that a robot had the power to manipulate the DCU's reality like that.

Hey, she was the robot from Fritz Lang's "Metropolis". She's gotta be pretty powerful! :p Besides, all she did was hold BACK some of the effects, not really manipulate things much.

How long was it after the publication of that A.S.S. (love that acronym) issue that MAN OF STEEL # 1, BATMAN YEAR ONE, and WONDER WOMAN # 1 were published?

BAD BURIED! It's A-SS. :)

Well, Man of Steel #1 started in in Oct. of '86, but, as I editted in while you were typing your post, the pre-Crisis Supes was seen no more after Aug. "Year One" in Batman was March '87, but they were already referencing the new relationship between he and Supes in Nov. '86. Wondy came back in Feb. '87, but her old mag ended in Feb. '86 and, except for the apocryphal Busiek/Robbins Legend of Wonder Woman, she wasn't seen again until her reboot.

[Eyeswithoutaface]

re: pre-crisis Batman

I don't know the complete details (Going by a single story in a TPB Greatest Stories ever told compilation) but Batman was married to Selena Kyle Pre-Crisis, and had Helena Kyle (Huntress) as a daughter, no?

That's a major retcon. Not only for Bruce, since he has no daughter post-crisis as far as I know, but for Huntress as well because she's been Helena Bertinelli in regular continuity for quite some time now.

[Buried Alien]

re: pre-crisis Batman

I don't know the complete details (Going by a single story in a TPB Greatest Stories ever told compilation) but Batman was married to Selena Kyle Pre-Crisis, and had Helena Kyle (Huntress) as a daughter, no?

Yes, but this was only true of the Golden Age Batman, who resided on Earth-2 in the Pre-CRISIS era. The Silver Age Batman who resided on Earth-1 had no such history.



Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Patient Boy]

re: pre-crisis Batman

I don't know the complete details (Going by a single story in a TPB Greatest Stories ever told compilation) but Batman was married to Selena Kyle Pre-Crisis, and had Helena Kyle (Huntress) as a daughter, no?

That's a major retcon. Not only for Bruce, since he has no daughter post-crisis as far as I know, but for Huntress as well because she's been Helena Bertinelli in regular continuity for quite some time now.

It was Helena Wayne. She was only Helena Kyle in the TV series, I believe.

I've always thought that the strained present day relationship between Batman and the Huntress was somehow a product of their having the faintest idea in their unconscious regarding their pre-Crisis history.

[marshal99]

It was Helena Wayne. She was only Helena Kyle in the TV series, I believe.

I've always thought that the strained present day relationship between Batman and the Huntress was somehow a product of their having the faintest idea in their unconscious regarding their pre-Crisis history.

In Pre-crisis , Earth 2 Helena Wayne Huntress had a good relationship with Earth 1 Batman. If u can find it , they had that first meeting in Batman family issue 17 which was a cool issue when Huntress goes to earth 1 for some advice from batman and he referred her to Barbara Gordon Batgirl and Kathy kane Batwoman and they had a teamup against Catwoman and Poison Ivy.

Earth 2 batman had died already a few years before Crisis.

[Jack]

It was Helena Wayne. She was only Helena Kyle in the TV series, I believe.

I've always thought that the strained present day relationship between Batman and the Huntress was somehow a product of their having the faintest idea in their unconscious regarding their pre-Crisis history.
Well in the Huntress/Question: Cry for Blood mini (yes, I know it was Huntress/Batman but come on, he was in about three panels) Vic did point out to Helena that Batman was her father figure, and there's a certain truth to what he was saying.

[AllisterH]

Wouldn't the dividing line for Batman be the new Jason Todd?

I distinctly remember reading pre-Crisis Titans and Batman stories with Jason Todd and he seemed like, well, like Tim Drake in personality.

Post-Crisis, he was a grade A jerk....

[Reptisaurus!]

Stuff like this makes my head hurt.

The way I see it, there wasn't a specifically post Crisis Batman 'till Year One, which was a year or two after the Crisis mini ended.

And some of the Pre-Crisis stories are still in continuity, and some aren't, and there's no way of telling which is which. We know that the first appearance of the Joker (from the fourties) and Silver Saint Cloud (from the seventies) are still in continuity, but we have to assume that most of the pre-new-look stories never happened, and that the Post New-Look stories May or May not have happened depending on how the editors and writers are feeling any given day.

Probably.

And Justice League is even *worse.*

All of these stories happened, except that Superman and Wonder Woman weren't around, none of the Earth-two team-ups, which is impossible because without the Earth-two team-ups, the Red Tornado and Black Canary couldn't exist, but they *do*, and Black Canary is now a founding member of the Justice League instead of Wonder Woman, which means that everyone should have died in JLA # 151 (I think I have the issue number right...)

Now, the easy answer is just to not think about it too hard, but wasn't the point of Crisis that DC has some kind of logical continuity that stands up to basic common sense?

This is whi I never get a decent nights' sleep. Thanks a *lot*, DC.

[Reptisaurus!]

Wouldn't the dividing line for Batman be the new Jason Todd?

I distinctly remember reading pre-Crisis Titans and Batman stories with Jason Todd and he seemed like, well, like Tim Drake in personality.

Post-Crisis, he was a grade A jerk....

I don't think so.

That was just writers who either didn't understand or didn't *like* the character, IMO. They magnafied and distorted some of Jason's character traits until he was a completely different and thoroughly unlikeable character.

[Paul Newell]

I don't think so.

That was just writers who either didn't understand or didn't *like* the character, IMO. They magnafied and distorted some of Jason's character traits until he was a completely different and thoroughly unlikeable character.
From what I remember the character was "re-imagined" Post-Crisis. Going from memory, I think #400 was the last hurrah for the Pre-Crisis Batman, then the Post-Crisis Batman began in #401 with Batman: Year One. Just after that they did a new origin for Jason Todd where he became a "tough as nails" street kid with a jerky personality. I seem to remember he tried to steal the Batmobile. I couldn't tell you what his Pre-Crisis origin was, but I think it was quite different and involved the circus.

Also an in-continuity explanation for the uneven changeover to the Post-Crisis continuity was given in All-Star Squadron #60 where the robot from the future, Mekanique, used her powers to hold back the full affects of the Crisis for a period of time. I also remember reading something about the goddess Athena doing the same in the last issue of the Legend of Wonder Woman mini-series.

[Ontir]

I liked the pre-Crisis Jason Todd. Many of his traits seem to have been re-created in the third Robin.

I F&@#*&! hated the post-Crisis Jason! Max Allan Collins re-imagined the character into a nasty little street thug, who was unsavory at best, and one that DC Readers voted dead? This was also after his Mad Dog (I think) character went on his crime-fighting run through the DCU, before being almost completely forgotten.

I think the transition is far more tricky than it was supposed to be. Wolfman intended that when Crisis was over, only readers would remember that it happened. For the characters, the new single universe would just always have been. That didn't happen for a number of reasons. It took another year for both Superman and Wonder Woman to be retro-fitted for the new universe, with rammifications that wrankled on into both the Titans and the Legion, and continue to this day. There was also Barbara Randall's "New" Flash, which more or less finally saw the light of day (no pun intended) in the Tangent Universe Flash book. After much discussion of this character, DC shelved it in favour of putting Wally West into the Flash costume. Basically, at the point that these events occurred, it was Post-Crisis, but even after that, we have the multiple re-bootings of Hawkman, Donna Troy, and the teeming members, enemies, and supporting characters of the Legion.

[Paradox]

Paul Newell needs noogies for not reading my earlier post:

From what I remember the character was "re-imagined" Post-Crisis. Going from memory, I think #400 was the last hurrah for the Pre-Crisis Batman, then the Post-Crisis Batman began in #401 with Batman: Year One.

Your memory fails you, good Paul (I know how that goes...I'm the Mayor of Brain Fart City ;)). "Year One" started in #405. I will agree with your cutting point, though, as #401 was the one with Magpie (the character from the Batman issue of Man of Steel) that referenced the "new" relationship with Superman.

Just after that they did a new origin for Jason Todd where he became a "tough as nails" street kid with a jerky personality.

Immediately after, with #408, to be precise.

I seem to remember he tried to steal the Batmobile.

Yes. And the beginning of my intense dislike for the little post-Crisis creep.

I couldn't tell you what his Pre-Crisis origin was, but I think it was quite different and involved the circus.

IIRC, it was virtually identical to Dick's (circus performer, both parents killed by a criminal...in this case Killer Croc and they didn't die performing, but fighting him), which Max Collins must've thought incredibly cheesy, and I have to agree.

Also an in-continuity explanation for the uneven changeover to the Post-Crisis continuity was given in All-Star Squadron #60 where the robot from the future, Mekanique, used her powers to hold back the full affects of the Crisis for a period of time.

Is there an echo in here? :evilsmile

I also remember reading something about the goddess Athena doing the same in the last issue of the Legend of Wonder Woman mini-series.

I vaguely remember such a thing as well. But, I pretty much consider Legend of Wonder Woman an apocryphal paean to WW's legacy and don't really count it, thereby laying it all at Mechanique's shiny feet. YMMV.

[Paul Newell]

Is there an echo in here? :evilsmile
I know, I know...I really need to pay attention more. :)

I vaguely remember such a thing as well. But, I pretty much consider Legend of Wonder Woman an apocryphal paean to WW's legacy and don't really count it, thereby laying it all at Mechanique's shiny feet. YMMV.
Did you read the mini? Give us a summary.

[Paradox]

Paul Newell wants the Legend skinny:

Did you read the mini? Give us a summary.

Can't. I read it, WAAAAAAY back when it came out. Never reread it. I'm not a big fan of Trina Robbins' "paper doll" art, even though I do recognize its talent. IIRC, it's an "untold tales of Paradise Island" kind of thing, but even that I can't recall clearly. It might not be at all. Maybe Kurt'll drop by and give one. He wrote the thing. :p

I'll see if I still have it. If so, I'll run through it and run it down for y'all here.

[Paradox]

Here's a summary I found online at this site (http://grimkun10.50megs.com/ww1.htm):

Surprisingly there was one last pre-Crisis Wonder Woman story after this but it was written as a Golden Age Wonder Woman story. The Legend of Wonder Woman by Trina Robbins and Kurt Busiek was their homage to the original H.G. Peters illustrated, Charles Moulton written version they had loved in their own childhoods. In this series Atomia, the Evil Queen of the Atom Galaxy from a seventies pseudo Golden Age Wonder Woman story in Wonder Woman 211 returned to menace Wonder Woman thinking her the main obstacle to Atomia's plans of global conquest. She was right!

In her original appearance Atomia had attacked Paradise Island, gassing and minaturizing Wonder Woman and several other amazons. Her neutron robot slaves then bound and carried the captive Amazons into Atomia's subatomic world. There Atomia revealed her plan to enslave them and use them as her army to conquer Earth! Wonder Woman used her own telepathy to take control of the Neutrons and escape. Her plans foiled Atomia vowed to return. Which brings us back to the Legend of Wonder Woman miniseries. In this Atomia again captures Wonder Woman and convinces Etta Candy's niece (who has been tagging along with WW) that evil is fun and to switch sides. Suzie shows a definite flare for evil though Wonder Woman doesn't seem to take either Suzie or Atomia very seriously. However she is a bit worried that she hasn't done a very good job as Suzie's guardian. Anyway Wonder Woman escapes pretty easily as she wasn't shackled by a man so the chains are child's play to break. She just played along hoping Suzie would reject Atomia's influence. We could speculate that knowing she could break free at any time so she might as well enjoy it is why she doesn't actually break free until Steve Trevor arrives at her cell. But maybe we're reading too much into it. Then again ... Anyway this series was the last hurrah for the original Wonder Woman. It was time for DC to unveil the new and improved (though this is very debateable) Wonder Woman.

[Kurt Busiek]

Here's a summary I found online at this site (http://grimkun10.50megs.com/ww1.htm):

Surprisingly there was one last pre-Crisis Wonder Woman story after this but it was written as a Golden Age Wonder Woman story. The Legend of Wonder Woman by Trina Robbins and Kurt Busiek was their homage to the original H.G. Peters illustrated, Charles Moulton written version they had loved in their own childhoods. In this series Atomia, the Evil Queen of the Atom Galaxy from a seventies pseudo Golden Age Wonder Woman story in Wonder Woman 211 returned to menace Wonder Woman thinking her the main obstacle to Atomia's plans of global conquest. She was right!

Atomia didn't debut in that Seventies story, but in a 1950s story that got redone (badly) in the 1970s. All the characters we used in LEGEND OF WONDER WOMAN (except Suzie the Brat Girl) were from 50s WW stories Trina had loved as a kid.

So ... it's not really a GA WW homage, but a Fifties WW homage!

kdb

[Paradox]

Kurt Busiek gives the true tale:

Atomia didn't debut in that Seventies story, but in a 1950s story that got redone (badly) in the 1970s. All the characters we used in LEGEND OF WONDER WOMAN (except Suzie the Brat Girl) were from 50s WW stories Trina had loved as a kid.

So ... it's not really a GA WW homage, but a Fifties WW homage!

Thanks, Kurt.

See? He's just like Cthullu. :D

[Buried Alien]

At the end of CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS # 10, what was left of the Multiverse was wiped out in the battle between the Anti-Monitor and the Spectre/collected DC superheroes. That should have been all she wrote for the DC time-space continuum, but somehow, at the beginning of CRISIS # 11, the Post-CRISIS DC Universe was born. What was the spark that started the new universe after the demise of the old multiverse?


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[SUPERECWFAN1]

At the end of CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS # 10, what was left of the Multiverse was wiped out in the battle between the Anti-Monitor and the Spectre/collected DC superheroes. That should have been all she wrote for the DC time-space continuum, but somehow, at the beginning of CRISIS # 11, the Post-CRISIS DC Universe was born. What was the spark that started the new universe after the demise of the old multiverse?


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


I believe and this Is my theory. The Spectre used his God and Universe type powers to restart the new Universe and World by doing the "Big Bang" . At the end of 10# he keeps pouring more and more power Into his battle with the anti-Moniter. He used some spare power to restart things with the Big Bang.


Thats my theory. He was the spark.

[Paradox]

Damage! :D

No...wait...

[Son of Shadow]

The Power of the Imagination.

[yenaled]

Marv Wolfman :D

[DDM]

The Spectre's fight against the Anti-Monitor at the Dawn of Time rebooted the multiverse back into a single universe. However, since all the heroes were present at the Dawn of Time, they were spared from being erased--such as the Earth-2 Huntress, Robin, Superman etc al--when time rebooted. Harbinger explains the contradictions clearly throughout Crisis On Infinite Earths #11 to both the Earth-2 Superman & the Huntress.

[Paradox]

DDM gives just the facts, ma'am:

The Spectre's fight against the Anti-Monitor at the Dawn of Time rebooted the multiverse back into a single universe.

I think that's a given to Buried. His question is "how and why"? What caused the universes to be reborn as one instead of just the multiverse being destroyed and that being the end of it?

[DDM]

I think that's a given to Buried. His question is "how and why"? What caused the universes to be reborn as one instead of just the multiverse being destroyed and that being the end of it?

The energy both characters released enough energy to create the universe. The Spectre's power is good; while the Anti-Monitor's power is evil. The dichotomy & equal power created a surge as reality shifted & time rebooted. The anti-matter universe remained, despite the mutiverse was erased in place of a single universe that combined all aspects of the previous multiverse. Now, the hand Krona sees is the Anti-Monitor's, a time paradox since it was Krona's deed that created the mutliverse & the evil anti-matter universe in the first place.

[Paradox]

DDM goes further in depth:

The energy both characters released enough energy to create the universe.

So you're saying that the energy released by the battle was essentially the Big Bang? Interesting...

[Buried Alien]

Another interesting thing to consider is how much "time" might have passed between the destruction of the Multiverse in CRISIS # 10 and the birth of the new Universe in CRISIS # 11. The idea of measuring "time" is tricky here because, after all, nothing existed between the end of the Multiverse and the beginning of the Universe. If it were possible to measure this "time', however, I wonder how much time it would be. An instant? Several billion years? The recent DC ENCYCLOPEDIA referred to Pre-CRISIS continuity as a "previous reality"...which can be interpreted as meaning that the Pre-CRISIS Multiverse existed some time beyond 15 billion years in the past...the time of the Big Bang that created the current Universe. How much before, however, is unknown.


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Paradox]

Buried Alien tries to apply:

Another interesting thing to consider is how much "time" might have passed between the destruction of the Multiverse in CRISIS # 10 and the birth of the new Universe in CRISIS # 11. The idea of measuring "time" is tricky here because, after all, nothing existed between the end of the Multiverse and the beginning of the Universe. If it were possible to measure this "time', however, I wonder how much time it would be. An instant? Several billion years? The recent DC ENCYCLOPEDIA referred to Pre-CRISIS continuity as a "previous reality"...which can be interpreted as meaning that the Pre-CRISIS Multiverse existed some time beyond 15 billion years in the past...the time of the Big Bang that created the current Universe. How much before, however, is unknown.

Sorry, Buried, but when you're talking about restarting a whole universe from the beginning, terms like "before" and "after" are pretty inapplicable. The "previous" can only refer to publishing time, not "inside continuity" time.

As for the "between time", again, the terms are inapplicable. My own theory is that there was no "time" between the universes. The old one wasn't so much destroyed as "changed". The Spectre/Anti-Monitor Big Bang would have taken the place of the original "about to split into multiverse" Big Bang and things down the timeline would just alter to compensate. That wouldn't take "time". One second things would be one way, and then the next they would be the new way.

It gets REALLY weird if we think about Mechanique "holding back" the changes back in WW II and how it altered things down the line. Now THAT would actually have some "time" involved. I wonder if that "mid-Crisis" universe ever gets listed amongst all the other DCU-verses.

[Buried Alien]

The "previous" can only refer to publishing time, not "inside continuity" time.

Here's the quote in question, Dox:

"The most significant event ever to shake the universe is the one almost no one can remember. In an earlier reality, creation was ordered into a "multiverse" with multiple parallel Earths..."

In this context, it sounds like the writer of the article meant for "earlier reality" to be understood in terms of continuity, not publishing history. As logically faulty as it is, that seems to be the way it's being presented.

And I think it isn't as crazy as it sounds, and might make for a better use of the term "hypertime" than the one DC's officially given us. Let's say there's a "hypertimeline" on which both the Pre-CRISIS Multiverse existed and the current Post-CRISIS Universe exists. Some untold time ago (way more than 15 billion years) on this hypertimeline, the Multiverse was created. It endured for 15 billion years until the Crisis event hit in the Earth year 1985. The Crisis event destroyed the Multiverse, and an unknown period of "time" (some sort of transition) passed on the hypertimeline. Then, a new Big Bang created the Post-CRISIS Universe on the same hypertimeline...at some point farther ahead on the hypertimeline than the destroyed Pre-CRISIS Multiverse. This "new" Universe then progressed 15 billion years to the present.

And if you've followed all that I've typed up to this point, help yourself to an Advil. :D



Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[The Shadow]

Another interesting thing to consider is how much "time" might have passed between the destruction of the Multiverse in CRISIS # 10 and the birth of the new Universe in CRISIS # 11. The idea of measuring "time" is tricky here because, after all, nothing existed between the end of the Multiverse and the beginning of the Universe. If it were possible to measure this "time', however, I wonder how much time it would be. An instant? Several billion years? The recent DC ENCYCLOPEDIA referred to Pre-CRISIS continuity as a "previous reality"...which can be interpreted as meaning that the Pre-CRISIS Multiverse existed some time beyond 15 billion years in the past...the time of the Big Bang that created the current Universe. How much before, however, is unknown.


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
... you just gave me a headache

[Kevin Street]

As for the "between time", again, the terms are inapplicable. My own theory is that there was no "time" between the universes. The old one wasn't so much destroyed as "changed". The Spectre/Anti-Monitor Big Bang would have taken the place of the original "about to split into multiverse" Big Bang and things down the timeline would just alter to compensate. That wouldn't take "time". One second things would be one way, and then the next they would be the new way.

That's the way I've always interpreted it, too. In a way, just a handful of characters like Flash and the Anti-Monitor "died" in Crisis - the rest, all those teeming infinite masses populating the alternate Earths (and the other worlds in their universes), were saved because the Spectre/Anti-Monitor battle changed history. Or to put it more accurately, the universe never split into alternate Earths. Earth 1, Earth 2 and the rest were never "created" in the first place, but they still exist in the combined universe. Now and forever, from the Big Bang to the End of Time, there is only Earth Sigma (Thanks for that link, Buried Alien. :)) and the antimatter universe of Qward.

Other stuff like the Time Trapper's pocket universe, the various alternate futures and Zero Hour are filigrees added on to this basic structure. Hypertime, the Milestone and Wildstorm universes, and the Marvel crossovers involve a larger cosmological structure of parallel dimensions and hypertimelines that the Earth Sigma/Qward universes fit within.

Some characters from the alternate Earths (like the golden age Superman)survived because they were involved with the events of Crisis itself, but their original worlds weren't destroyed so much as wiped from existence.

Are the populations of the old alternate Earths dead? I don't think we can really say that, since most of them were variants of each other - and since they never split, it's logical to conclude that they are all still "alive" in the combined universe of Earth Sigma. For instance, the current Lois Lane is the Lois from Earth 1 and the Lois from Earth 2, and a whole bunch of other Loises as well. Other, wilder variants that had no counterparts to the Earths we know (like alternate Earths where dinosaurs ruled the planet) are more completely gone - but once again, it's not that these realities are dead - rather, they never were.

It gets REALLY weird if we think about Mechanique "holding back" the changes back in WW II and how it altered things down the line. Now THAT would actually have some "time" involved. I wonder if that "mid-Crisis" universe ever gets listed amongst all the other DCU-verses.

I try not to think about that. ;) The whole Mechanique/Aphrodite thing is just whacked. :confused: :eek:

[Paradox]

I can follow what you're saying, Buried (sans analgesics, even), but to me, the whole thing is like trying to measure a fifth dimensional object with a tape measure. :) The very concepts are off.

And, sorry, I consider the quote referenced as nothing more than awkward, inaccurate writing.

[DDM]

So you're saying that the energy released by the battle was essentially the Big Bang? Interesting...

Yes. The Spectre (God's vengeance personified) & the Anti-Monitor (evil incarnate) are equal opposites--yin & yang--that caused the multiverse to be erased back into the single universe it was meant to be.

[Ontir]

It would have been great if the DCU HAD been re-booted @ that point, but what we got was "Dada-world" where whatever was left existed, often, as anachronisms for the better part of the year that followed. Superman was still the Earth 1 version. Wonder Woman of Earth 2 was still in existence, along with Wonder Girl, and Fury, but over the next year we got to see Trina Robbins' WW mini, which was completely different from what we've seen before (sort of an uber-dyke riff on the earlies stories), and then Perez began his series, negating Earth 2 Diana, and forever separating her from Fury and Wonder Girl. This was about the same time Superman got "Byrne-d," and Jason Todd got a whole new origin, turning him into the dark/skid-row version of Bruce Wayne, which ultimately lead to him becoming someone DC readers wanted to drop a building on, and were willing to pay the phone charges to see it happen!

Basically, I think the Spectre vs. Anti-Monitor thing is what was supposed to happen, but by that point, the story had been thrown out the window, so you just have to accept that with issue 11, we get the ending they decided to produce, despite the fact that it's not really based on any events in the actual story.

[DDM]

It would have been great if the DCU HAD been re-booted @ that point, but what we got was "Dada-world" where whatever was left existed, often, as anachronisms for the better part of the year that followed. Superman was still the Earth 1 version. Wonder Woman of Earth 2 was still in existence, along with Wonder Girl, and Fury, but over the next year we got to see Trina Robbins' WW mini, which was completely different from what we've seen before (sort of an uber-dyke riff on the earlies stories), and then Perez began his series, negating Earth 2 Diana, and forever separating her from Fury and Wonder Girl. This was about the same time Superman got "Byrne-d," and Jason Todd got a whole new origin, turning him into the dark/skid-row version of Bruce Wayne, which ultimately lead to him becoming someone DC readers wanted to drop a building on, and were willing to pay the phone charges to see it happen!

Basically, I think the Spectre vs. Anti-Monitor thing is what was supposed to happen, but by that point, the story had been thrown out the window, so you just have to accept that with issue 11, we get the ending they decided to produce, despite the fact that it's not really based on any events in the actual story.


All heroes from all Earths were present at the Dawn of Time; therefore, they survived the rebirth, but their Earths did not. Harbinger explains it clearly in the examples of Superman & Batman plus the fact that neither Earth-2's Superman, Huntress, & Robin did not survive the "rebirth." Harbinger explains they were present at the Dawn of Time which made them immune to the rebirth. Harbinger later explained that the Anti-Monitor's weak death beams did not kill Wonder Woman from Earth-1, but it had devolved her back to her original state. Time likewise fold back in reverse which basically erased the Amazon's pre-Crisis history...

[Kevin Street]

It would have been great if the DCU HAD been re-booted @ that point, but what we got was "Dada-world" where whatever was left existed, often, as anachronisms for the better part of the year that followed. Superman was still the Earth 1 version. Wonder Woman of Earth 2 was still in existence, along with Wonder Girl, and Fury, but over the next year we got to see Trina Robbins' WW mini, which was completely different from what we've seen before (sort of an uber-dyke riff on the earlies stories), and then Perez began his series, negating Earth 2 Diana, and forever separating her from Fury and Wonder Girl. This was about the same time Superman got "Byrne-d," and Jason Todd got a whole new origin, turning him into the dark/skid-row version of Bruce Wayne, which ultimately lead to him becoming someone DC readers wanted to drop a building on, and were willing to pay the phone charges to see it happen!

Heh, well put. :)

Basically, I think the Spectre vs. Anti-Monitor thing is what was supposed to happen, but by that point, the story had been thrown out the window, so you just have to accept that with issue 11, we get the ending they decided to produce, despite the fact that it's not really based on any events in the actual story.

I still prefer to think of things as going the way they were supposed to. ;) It's true that the first year or so after Crisis was madness, since most of the creators couldn't even seem to agree among themselves about what had happened and what should happen next. But looking back on things now, the Earth Sigma thing (by whatever name) seems to be what most of them were aiming for.

[hitokiri_]

yeah, the monitor from CoIE, at the first part, the heroes were telling that the monitor is an arms dealer, so my question, is monitor related to the combine? (flash villain) they have the same skin tone, almost the same outfit. what issue did monitor actually sell some fire arms?

[Paradox]

No relation, I'm sure.

And Monitor wasn't a standard "arms dealer". He sold super-tech to various villains, not guns.

[marshal99]

Crisis was a long term project by DC, a year or two before Crisis officially started , the monitor and Lyla were already introduced into the DCU , the monitor would be hidden in shadows with an air of mystery , always monitoring events and appearing in many different DC comics and does seemed to be a bad guy as he was supplying high tech stuffs to bad guys .

[hitokiri_]

Crisis was a long term project by DC, a year or two before Crisis officially started , the monitor and Lyla were already introduced into the DCU , the monitor would be hidden in shadows with an air of mystery , always monitoring events and appearing in many different DC comics and does seemed to be a bad guy as he was supplying high tech stuffs to bad guys .


well.... that is what the combine is doing right?

[converge241]

what books did Monitor appear in before Crisis? It might be stated in the books but I dont recall and dont feel like digging them or the HC out.

I bought a lot of stuff back then but just can't recall if or where he appeared

[Toreador]

Well, the handy-dandy dcuguide lists New Teen Titans #21 (1982) as the Monitor's first appearance. And it has him hopping around different books for the next 3 years until Crisis started. Might want to take a wander over there and look up the entire list.

[Blueferret]

You basically saw his hands looking through a monitor watching various heroes and talking to Lyla, who was shown. He did make a facial in one book before Crisis, although I don't remember which one.

[Blueferret]

Oh, yeah. It was almost like Claw on Inspector Gadget :D

[Paradox]

Blueferret wants the full frontal:

You basically saw his hands looking through a monitor watching various heroes and talking to Lyla, who was shown. He did make a facial in one book before Crisis, although I don't remember which one.

He was fully revealed before Crisis started in one of the war books, but I'll be damned if I can ever remember which one. Li'l help?

[Paul Newell]

what books did Monitor appear in before Crisis? It might be stated in the books but I dont recall and dont feel like digging them or the HC out.

I bought a lot of stuff back then but just can't recall if or where he appeared

According to the official guide to Crisis crossovers, the Monitor or Lyla appeared in this order:

New Teen Titans #21 - First Monitor.
New Teen Titans Annual #2 - First Lyla.
Green Lantern #173, #176, #178.
Flash #338, #339 - Behind the scenes in #338
Tales of the Ten Titans #47
Blue Devil #5
Fury of Firestorm #28
Batman and the Outsiders #14, #15
Action Comics #560
Justice League of America #232
Tales of the Legion of Super-Heroes #317
Wonder woman #321
Infinity Inc. #8
All-star Squadron #40
DC Comics Presents #76
Superman #402
Saga of the Swamp Thing #30, #31
Justice League of America #234
Vigilante #14 - Behind the scenes only.
Superman #403
World's Finest #311
Tales of the Legion of Super-Heroes #319, #320
Amethyst #2
G.I. Combat #275, #276 - First time the Monitors physical appearance is revealed.
Wonder woman #323
Action Comics #564
Warlord #91
Jonah Hex #90
Batman #384
Detective Comics #551 - Behind the scenes only.
Tales of the Teen Titans #58 - First chronological appearance of Harbinger.
DC Comics Presents #78 - Last Pre-Crisis appearance of the Monitor and Lyla as they watch the destruction of Earth 3 begin.

[Paradox]

Paul Newell does my research for me:

G.I. Combat #275, #276 - First time the Monitors physical appearance is revealed.

Thanks. I'll TRY to remember that this time. :)

[Paul Newell]

Thanks. I'll TRY to remember that this time. :)
I've never seen those particular issues...Anyone got any pictures they can post of the Monitor?

[dancj]

If I remember rightly, The Monitor was originally created to be a Teen Titans villain and made a couple of appearances in Teen Titans before Crisis got underway and Marv Wolfman decide he was a good character to use in that - at which point he started appearing in other comics

Dan

[converge241]

thx for the info!

now i wonder if Monitor (or someone associated with him) is involved in Project OMAC..seems a little similar witht eh satellite watchign everyone from the basic plot

i know i know reaching for straws and all..but im waiting for any of the specific Crisis people to show up..if Pariah shows up ina random issue of JLA or whatever and warns of danger im going to "poop" 10 bricks :)

[marshal99]

Not sure what u are talking about but i'm pretty sure Pariah and Harbinger was only introduced in Crisis itself.

[dancj]

Harbinger appeared in the pre-crisis appearances in other comics - just not in her costume

[marshal99]

Yeah , she appeared in her civilian id "Lyla" in most of those pre-crisis appearances but she only appeared as "Harbinger" in crisis itself.

[Ecoman]

Okay. Here's the deal.
I don't really know that much about the DCU and I was wondering if there might be someone out there who could overlook my blunt ignorance and inform me on the nature of Crisis On Infinite Earths?
What's it all about?
Who died?

Cheers n' Peace,

-Ecoman. :D

[Expletive Deleted]

All the alternate earths that DC had either created, retconned, or acquired over the years were mooshed into one allegedly cohesive DCU. Lots of characters (most minor) died and plenty more were retroactively changed or eliminated.

It's more complicated than that, but that should cover you in terms of the basics. If you want more information, this site (http://www.io.com/~woodward/chroma/crisis.html) is a good resource.

[Ecoman]

If you want more information, this site (http://www.io.com/~woodward/chroma/crisis.html) is a good resource.

It certainly is. Thank you.

[Paul Newell]

Yeah , she appeared in her civilian id "Lyla" in most of those pre-crisis appearances but she only appeared as "Harbinger" in crisis itself.

Tales of the Teen Titans #58 has her appearing as Harbinger. It was published after the Crisis mini had started, but chronologically happened before the Crisis.

From what I remember, she brings Psimon to the Monitors satellite to wait until he's needed.

[Halcyon]

The most coherent explaination of the Crisis that I've seen took place in a Swamp Thing story arc where he was lost in time and talking to Merlin about time travel.

[mckracken]

Okay. Here's the deal.
I don't really know that much about the DCU and I was wondering if there might be someone out there who could overlook my blunt ignorance and inform me on the nature of Crisis On Infinite Earths?
What's it all about?
Who died?

Cheers n' Peace,

-Ecoman. :D
You dont wanna read one of the best comic stories ever by yourself?
Shame on you.

[converge241]

yeah you need to try and read this story

[Dark Knight]

Im reasonably new to the DC Universe and I keep reading about the "crisis" and "earth 2". Could someone fill me in please?

[Matt Algren]

To get the whole story click here (http://www.io.com/~woodward/chroma/crisis.html), but you might want to get comfortable. There's a lot to tell.

Here's the short explanation for Earth-1 and Earth-2.

Earth-1
The Silver Age. Justice League, Superman II, Flash II (Barry Allen). Largely identical in history to the real world. Almost all post-Golden Age comics through the Crisis took place here, beginning between 1945 (first appearance of Superboy) and 1955 (first appearance of the Martian Manhunter). First defined in Flash v1#123 (1961), first named in JLA v1#21 (1963).
Earth-2
The Golden Age. Justice Society, Superman I, Flash I (Jay Garrick). Largely identical in history to the real world up through the mid-70s, at which point minor differences creep in (such as South Africa becoming free decades early). Only a few post-Golden Age comics were ever set there, notably Infinity Inc., the second run of All-Star Comics, and All-Star Squadron. "Defined" and "named" info same as for E1.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Pre-Crisis: This was Earth 2 and various other Earths that DC Charactors existed on. On Earth 2 Superman aged like In real time. He grew old and married Lois Lane.

This also was the world for the Golden Age Flash , Jay Garrick and the JSA heroes who also aged and grew up. In the 1960's DC Introduced a new Flash and Green Lantern and explained It all In Flash 123# ( Vol.1) . Barry Allen ( Silver Age Flash) met Jay Garrick and this Earth 2 was born.


Soon DC started adding more heroes like Captain Marvel and the Marvel family and explained they existed on a seperate Earth. This was also the explanation for the DC War Titles. In those Worlds It was World War II and not much had changed.


In the Western Titles thing were explained that It too was a different Earth. Soon DC had Earths 1,2,S,X and various others. It was getting a tad confusing for some DC Editors and writers and In the early 1980's Marv Wolfman Introduced a plan to clear the decks and align all the heroes under 1 Earth and lay out DC from square 1 after 50 years of existance.


Crisis on Infinate Earths: Wolfman and Perez had pretty much made New Teen Titans a huge seller for DC and thier Idea to retcon,change and kill various heroes and viallins was met with a go ahead.

This was the biggest change In comics and the 1st big huge Mini-series that would Impact a whole line. It ran from 1985-1986 and pretty much destroyed the Infinate Earths of DC. Gone was Supergirl , Superboy and the Streaky the super cat.

Batman was changed as well. Gone was the Huntress as his daughter. The Golden Age Wonder Woman from Earth 2 married Steve Trevor and the Earth 1 version went back to clay to be reborn....


Post Crisis: The Crisis helped Superman , Wonder Woman and a few other titles. But It hurt Hawkman and the Legion of Superheroes to a huge degree.

DC Editors used the ole saying that some of the Pre-Crisis stuff did happen and a lot didn't. Superboy was a key and Important member of the LOSH at thier exception and had been Involved In a lot of thier big storylines.

But under DC's Post Crisis history he did not. There was no Superboy and he didn't exist til Bryne's Man of Steel retcon. Clark never became Superboy under Bryne and this created a huge void In Legion history which numerous DC Editors and writers tried to fill....and fill for years.

Hawkman suffered numerous revamps til Geoff Johns went with a simple one. Hawkman was a reincarnated God who had existed In a lotta forms In the DCU. Hope that helps.



Zero Hour: In 1994 DC decided that Legion of Superheroes needed fixing. The Crisis had pretty much did too much damage to the charactors and books and DC wiped everything clean and restrated from square 1# ala Wonder Woman's revamp under Perez In 1987.

This would last 10 years. Til Waid and company re-revamped the LOSH again. Hopefully this sticks.


Crisis...Was It worth It ? : I enjoyed It. You can buy TPB right now. I suggest ya pick it up. Its a fantastic read and Perez's art Is as good then as It Is now.

[DDM]

Earth-2:

The Golden Age Batman married the Golden Age Catwoman; they sired a daughter, Helena Wayne who became a lawyer & partner with Dick Grayson, the Golden Age Robin. After Batman had died, Catwoman's old villain partners convinced her to wear her costume again. Selina Kyle died. To avenge her mother's death, Helena Wayne became The Huntress. She joined the JSA not long after her debut in All Star Comics #69. Post-Crisis, The Huntress no longer existed. The current Huntress is not related to either Batman or Catwoman; she is a far more violent character than her pre-Crisis counterpart.

Kara Starr, Power Girl, was the Earth-2 version of Earth-1's Supergirl. She is the cousin of the Golden Age Superman. She started a software company & joined the JSA not long after her debut in All Star Comics #58. On Earth-2, Clark Kent married Lois Lane. Post-Crisis, Powergirl still existed, but her origin was still up in the air. Her Atlantean origin--written in the late-80's--is no longer the truth. Expect to read Kara's new origin in the current JSA book.

Dr. Fate is an original Earth-2 character.

[sikkbones]

in the memories of the DCU characters did the crisis even happen at all or has it been totally forgotten?

just reading an old post crisis superman where he meets the pocket universe superboy and mentions meeting a superboy during the crisis but at other times supes and othercharacters seem to have no memory of the crisis.

whats up with that?

[The Adventurer]

A Crisis happened. It wasn't EXACTLY like the one we read, the Anti-Monitor was trying to destroy the possitive matter universe, SuperGirl never existed among other changes. All the heroes involved have very fuzzy memories of it, don't remember much of what accualy happened except Barry Allan died saving the universe during.

[Matt]

Yes, the Crisis did happen but not in the way that is portrayed in the Crisis on Infinite Earth comics.

The Anti-Monitor came along and tried to destroy the Universe, the Monitor died, Lylah became Harbinger, Barry Allen kicked the bucket, etc etc.

As mentioned the pre-Crisis Supergirl never existed as far as the post-crisis heroes are concerned; she played no part in the known Crisis.

Most of what we know happened actually comes from a storyarc in Flash wherein Wally travelled back in time to the Crisis and tried to take Barry's place, battling the Anti-Monitor along the way.

[Paul Newell]

As I said in the Infinite Crisis thread:

The Crisis did happen...But the nature of it was changed.

During the revamps of Superman and Wonder Woman an edict came down that aspects of the DC Universe that were no longer relevant to the new DCU would no longer appear, or something to that order.

Examples included things like the characters that were at the beginning of time remembering the Multiverse, as well as the characters that existed like the Golden Age Superman, Superboy, Supergirl and the Golden Age Wonder Woman.

There was a period where they were still remembered and would "appear". Things like the All-Star Squadron and Infinity Inc. remembering the Earth 2 heroes that no longer existed, Huntress was still considered a member of Infinity Inc., The Legion of Super-Heroes had a statue of Supergirl in their memorial room, Superman remembering the Earth Prime Superboy, etc. The new Earth, at this point, was a mixture of the Pre-Crisis histories, but all situated on one Earth.

After the edict was handed down, all these little details disappeared and to explain the situation there was a story in All-Star Squadron where a robot from the future called Meckanique was using her powers to hold back the "full effects" of the Crisis. Another story, in the final issue of a mini series called Legends of Wonder Woman #4, had the Goddess Athena doing the same. The mini was a look back at the history of the Golden Age Wonder Woman, I think.

After Meckanique and Athena stopped doing this, the final effects of the Crisis were presumed to have "taken hold". The results were that reality was changed and all characters except the Psycho-Pirate lost their memories of the pre-Crisis history. The Earth-2 Aquaman, Batman, Green Arrow, Huntress, Robin, Speedy, and Wonder Woman, the Golden Age Captain Marvel and Marvel Family, the Earth-Prime Superboy and Earth-1's Hawkman, Hawkwoman, Supergirl, and Wonder Woman ceased to exist, along with all memory of their existence.

For years afterwards, the Crisis was mentioned, but not the nature until the JLA: Incarnations mini-series which had, in issue #4 or #5, the Anti-Monitor destroying different time era's with his anti-matter, causing time to compress and merge, rather than destroying alternate Earths.

So the some characters did remember the Crisis the way it happened for awhile, then that memory was erased by the actions of Mechanique and Athena, as well as the existence of some characters. Now only the Psycho Pirate remembers and the Linear Men had a record of the events as they originally happened, as shown in Zero Hour.

[Paul Newell]

Most of what we know happened actually comes from a storyarc in Flash wherein Wally travelled back in time to the Crisis and tried to take Barry's place, battling the Anti-Monitor along the way.

There's also issue #5 of JLA: Incarnations which explains the Post-Crisis Crisis. :)

[Matt]

The Guardians of the Universe also seemed to know about the true Crisis and Hal Jordan (as Parallax) mentioned it somewhere as well, iirc.
Likewise, the Spectre seems clued in as well.

[DDM]

Read History of the DC Universe by Marv Wolfman & George Perez. Essentially, the last two issues of Crisis On Infinite Earths #11-12 happened, but many of the heroes & villains memories faded away the true events of the Crisis. Only the Psycho Pirate remembers the DC multiverse & he was insane afterwards. Therefore, no one believed him.

[Paul Newell]

The Guardians of the Universe also seemed to know about the true Crisis and Hal Jordan (as Parallax) mentioned it somewhere as well, iirc.
Likewise, the Spectre seems clued in as well.

I wondered if Parallax knew, it wasn't made clear in Zero Hour. He mentions finding and absorbing Chronal energy left over from the Crisis, but doesn't mention if he means the original or retconned.

[Paul Newell]

Read History of the DC Universe by Marv Wolfman & George Perez. Essentially, the last two issues of Crisis On Infinite Earths #11-12 happened, but many of the heroes & villains memories faded away the true events of the Crisis. Only the Psycho Pirate remembers the DC multiverse & he was insane afterwards. Therefore, no one believed him.
The JLA: Incarnations issue shows that quite a bit more went on than just the last two issues though, the first story in the issue happens when the time went screwy in the middle issues and the second story, I think, shows Barry Allen's death in the new reality. It now appears that most of the events that happened still happened, but some with a different spin.

[sikkbones]

The JLA: Incarnations issue shows that quite a bit more went on than just the last two issues though, the first story in the issue happens when the time went screwy in the middle issues and the second story, I think, shows Barry Allen's death in the new reality. It now appears that most of the events that happened still happened, but some with a different spin.
how did barry allen die then?

[Sanagi]

I haven't read any of the stuff that retcons the crisis, but I can't help thinking that rewriting an event that was in itself the ultimate rewrite represents the fastening of the last strap in the straightjacket.

[Paul Newell]

how did barry allen die then?
Same way, but the machine had a different purpose. Unfortunately I no longer have the issue so I'm operating from memory, but the Anti-Monitor's machine was, originally being used to slow the vibratory fields of the 5 Earths so that they would evntually solidify into the same reality and space and destroy each other. In the new version I think its purpose was to collapse all time periods into a single point and wipe out the positive matter universe.

[sikkbones]

is barry allen the black flash?

[Paul Newell]

is barry allen the black flash?
The one that appeared for a time in Flash, Titans and JLA?

No, I think he was an older version of Wally West from Hypertime.

[Captain Jim]

I think somebody on Star Trek once said (something like), "All this time travel stuff makes my head hurt." When it comes to looking back on Crisis, I know the feeling. ;)

[Matt]

Wasn't the Black Flash the Death of Speedsters who had an uncanny ability to make photographs go weird (heh, someone was watching The Ring, I guess)?

The Dark Flash was Walter West, a Wally from an alternate time.

[sikkbones]

Wasn't the Black Flash the Death of Speedsters who had an uncanny ability to make photographs go weird (heh, someone was watching The Ring, I guess)?

The Dark Flash was Walter West, a Wally from an alternate time.
thats who i was talking about... the death flash... is that barry?

[Paul Newell]

OOH! My mistake. What's the story with the Black Flash?

[Matt]

The Black Flash was, more or less, the Grim Reaper for speedsters.

He was apparently there when Johnny Quick died, Max Mercury saw him once when he was sure he was going to die years ago ... and the Black Flash came for Wally at a time when he thought Linda was dead and had grown this stupid looking little beard.

Speedsters who have their photo taken just prior to their 'time' have the Black Flash appear, somewhat blurred, standing behind them.

And to answer the original question, the Black Flash was not Barry. It was more a personification of an aspect of the Speed Force and Death. It's exact origins were never explained.

[sikkbones]

how come some comics like the supergirl comics have had characters meet pre-crisis versions of themselves/others?

[Matt]

One word: Hypertime.

The only Pre-Crisis character I know of who lived through the Crisis unchanged was the golden age Superman who was shunted off to a pocket world/paradise and appeared again in The Kingdom.

[Apathy Boy]

I wondered if Parallax knew, it wasn't made clear in Zero Hour. He mentions finding and absorbing Chronal energy left over from the Crisis, but doesn't mention if he means the original or retconned.Well, Hal's master plan was to re-create the multi-verse ("I can even make an earth for the JSA!"). It didn't seem like he knew he was "undoing" anything, though, so maybe it was a sub-conscious memory.

One word: Hypertime.

The only Pre-Crisis character I know of who lived through the Crisis unchanged was the golden age Superman who was shunted off to a pocket world/paradise and appeared again in The Kingdom.THE KINGDOM wimped out on explicitly stating that was the Golden Age Superman, though. The place in THE KINGDOM sure didn't look like paradise, either, so I'd prefer to think that wasn't really the Golden Age Supes.

And to be fair, a lot of other characters made it through the Crisis unchanged (the Titans minus Donna Troy and Nightwing, the Outsiders, Wally West, Blue Devil. Yeah, we're not exactly talking the icons here).

[The Adventurer]

I have kind of a convuluted theory on the Crisis.

The Crisis, HAPPENED exactly the way discribed in Crisis on Infinite Earths, and prior to that the universe was split into an infanite number of Universes. When the Timelines all combined everyone forgot how the Crisis accualy went down because in the new timeline most of it was an Imposiblity due to there never been Infinate Earths. So if you time travel in the new timeline you stick to the new timeline BUT that doesn't mean the infinate earths never existed, they just arn't there any more and nobody remembers them.

So in closing, the Crisis happened, and the multiverse existed, but you can't see any signs of it's existence because all the rules that determines it's existence were wiped out.

[Paradox]

That doesn't work, though, Adventurer. They rebooted everything at the "beginning of time". It wouldn't be possible to draw a line at Crisis and say "there were before, and now there are not multiple Earths". The fact that things were changed so it had "always" been like this "now" was pretty implicitly stated in the book.

EDIT: Oops, I kind of misread you. What you're actually describing IS Hypertime, to an extent. There's one version of the Crisis as it actually "happened" out there, of course, but the way it happened in what is now the mainstream DCU happened differently, out of necessity.

[sikkbones]

why after the crisis did LEGION of superheros ackowlege supergirls death for a long time if she never exsisted?
and if someone tells me that the heros that died during crisis never exsisted in current DC contuinity then please explain the f'in anomaly that barry allen/ wally west is.

[Matt]

While the pre-crisis Supergirl never existed (to keep that whole sole survivor of Krypton thing happening for Superman), no such plot element effected Barry Allen.

[Paradox]

sikkbones needs the "delayed effect" explanation:

why after the crisis did LEGION of superheros ackowlege supergirls death for a long time if she never exsisted?

Ready? 'Cause it's kind of strange. There's a weird "in-between" time that existed for about a year after Crisis until approximately the debut of the Man of Steel mini-series that revamped Superman. At that point, not much had changed but the melding of the five Earths that were left. This is explained thusly.

A robot from the future called Mechanique had appeared during the time of the Crisis in a few books, primarily All-Star Squadron but also in Justice League of America and Infinity, Inc.. Part of her plan involved holding back some of the effects of the Crisis for a while. When this "holding back" was released, the final effects of Crisis became the new DCU, where Superman really WAS the "Last Son of Krypton" and had never been Superboy and there was no Supergirl. This "releasing" took place in All-Star Squadron #60.

http://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/2583/200/2583_2_60.jpg

Paul Levitz, who was writing the Legion book at the time, apparantly HATED that Supergirl had been pulled out of his mythos, and he made sure to acknowledge her death in the pages of Legion of Super-Heroes. This took place while Crisis was still being published, actually, even before the "in-between time".

Later, after the effects had settled in, Paul actually tried to bring back Supergirl in the guise of a "mystery" Legionnaire named Sensor Girl, but when editorial found out about it, they nixed it, and he had to change it to actually being Princess Projectra instead.

and if someone tells me that the heros that died during crisis never exsisted in current DC contuinity then please explain the f'in anomaly that barry allen/ wally west is.

Not everyone who died in the Crisis was deemed to have retroactively not existed. Several were, but not all.

Retroactive disappearances from continuity included:

Supergirl (and basically anyone from Krypton pre-Crisis, although some just had their origins changed)

Earth-2 Superman
Earth-2 Batman
Earth-2 Robin
Earth-2 Wonder Woman
Earth-2 Green Arrow
Earth-2 Speedy
Earth-2 Aquaman...see a trend, here? If they had an exact (more or less) Earth-2 duplicate, the Earth-2 one was gone.

Earth-1 Wonder Woman was devolved into clay near the end of Crisis, wiping her out from the very beginning of the changes, making way for the Pérez version later.

Power Girl, Huntress, Fury (the Earth-2 Wonder Woman's daughter) and Wonder Girl all had to have their origins completely changed because of their connections to characters now gone.

Jason "Robin" Todd and Nightwing both had large parts of their history changed for what appears to be no good reason at all.

Many of the supporting casts of Superman and Batman had revised histories due to the changes.

Barry Allen and Wally West came through with their histories intact, despite the fact that Barry had died.

Many others of the dead were mostly minor characters that didn't have to be retroactively eliminated because they were "small fry" and their deaths didn't really effect much. Kole from the New Teen Titans was specifically created to die, IIRC, although I don't think Marv intended it to be in the Crisis at the beginning.

[Paul Newell]

They also had the goddess Athena holding back the full effects of the Crisis as well in Legends of Wonder Woman #4.

[sikkbones]

how did barry allen die exactly in post crisis?

[Paul Newell]

how did barry allen die exactly in post crisis?
Look up to where I answered that question.

Exactly the same way only it woulddestroy the positive matter universe using a different method.

[Paradox]

Paul Newell makes me query:

They also had the goddess Athena holding back the full effects of the Crisis as well in Legends of Wonder Woman #4.

Did we ever determine if that actually counted or not? Fine book though it is, Kurt and Trina's book is somewhat iffy continuity wise, isn't it?

[Paul Newell]

Did we ever determine if that actually counted or not? Fine book though it is, Kurt and Trina's book is somewhat iffy continuity wise, isn't it?
I only count it now as I've seen it mentioned at so many other sites...One day I should read the bloody thing. :)

[Buried Alien]

To add to what the others have said, all characters imported from other publishers and placed on alternate Earths were also incorporated onto Post-CRISIS Earth after CRISIS. Thus, the Pre-CRISIS Marvel Family, which had their own Earth (Earth-S) Pre-CRISIS, now originated on the same Earth that everyone else did...and ditto Charlton characters such as Blue Beetle and Captain Atom that had previously been on Earth-4.


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Kevin Street]

Not everyone who died in the Crisis was deemed to have retroactively not existed. Several were, but not all.

Retroactive disappearances from continuity included:

Supergirl (and basically anyone from Krypton pre-Crisis, although some just had their origins changed)

Earth-2 Superman
Earth-2 Batman
Earth-2 Robin
Earth-2 Wonder Woman
Earth-2 Green Arrow
Earth-2 Speedy
Earth-2 Aquaman...see a trend, here? If they had an exact (more or less) Earth-2 duplicate, the Earth-2 one was gone.

The way I see it, nobody is gone exactly. They're just sort of...merged together. It's like a Monet painting with thousands of little dots that coalesce with distance to create a single image - except in this case we're talking about people instead of dots. All of the different versions of the heroes (and everybody else) from the infinite earths still exist, but they're sort of smooshed together into one Earth Sigma. The Earth 2 heroes that were killed in Crisis like Earth 2 Robin aren't really dead now, since the Crisis retconned itself by removing the event that created the infinite earths in the first place. Earth 2 Robin "lives on," so to speak, in the current Dick Grayson, along with the Earth 1 version and many more.

I figure it was an additive process, where the people who existed in the greatest number of infinite earths became part of the new Sigma. (Superheroes existed in more infinite earths than not, so they became part of Sigma, and so on.) People who existed on only a few Earths are...out of luck, since they just weren't born on this highest probability Earth.

Barry Allen is out of luck too, even though he made it into the new merged universe and was smooshed together with all the alternate Barry Allens - because they all died in the Crisis. If there had been an Earth 1 Barry and an Earth 2 Barry, and one died but the other did not, they might have both survived, after a fashion. Jay Garrick survived the Crisis, but he's a completely different character. So that was it for all the infinite Barrys.

[sikkbones]

To add to what the others have said, all characters imported from other publishers and placed on alternate Earths were also incorporated onto Post-CRISIS Earth after CRISIS. Thus, the Pre-CRISIS Marvel Family, which had their own Earth (Earth-S) Pre-CRISIS, now originated on the same Earth that everyone else did...and ditto Charlton characters such as Blue Beetle and Captain Atom that had previously been on Earth-4.


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
shazam had a retcon book...

[Buried Alien]

shazam had a retcon book...

Two, in fact. Post-CRISIS, the origins of Billy Batson and Captain Marvel were told in a miniseries called SHAZAM: A NEW BEGINNING (1987) and again in THE POWER OF SHAZAM (1994). Neither of these origins jibed exactly with the Pre-CRISIS origin (which was the original Fawcett Comics origin).

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Captain Jim]

Jason "Robin" Todd and Nightwing both had large parts of their history changed for what appears to be no good reason at all.

AMEN!

.....

[sikkbones]

speaking of retcons... how exactly did captian marvel and black adam end up in the JSA?

[methanolcereal]

The Crisis makes my head hurt. Especially when trying to fit in how Wally is the Flash etc.

[Matt]

What do you find confusing about Wally's career?

[methanolcereal]

What do you find confusing about Wally's career?
How exactly Barry died in the actual continuity, when Wally was Kid Flash, when he took the mantle of Flash etc. I know Barry's death was explained in this thread but the whole concept is a bit confusing to me.

[Matt]

It's pretty straight forward.

Barry was the Flash and was so for a number of years, saving the world and beating up bad guys. Along the way he picks up a sidekick called Wally who calls himself Kid Flash.
The Anti-Monitor comes along and tries to destroy the positive matter universe, with a rather large cannon being somewhat important to his plans.
Barry get captured by the Anti-Monitor and the Psycho Pirate, manages to break loose and promptly goes to the cannon and destroys it ... sacrificing himself in the process.
The Anti-Monitor goes on a rampage on Earth and the various heroes, including Kid Flash, go forth and beat him up.
Soon enough, Wally adopts his Uncle's costume and name to honour him.

[Paul Newell]

speaking of retcons... how exactly did captian marvel and black adam end up in the JSA?
Uh....No retcon....They joined. :confused:

[Paul Newell]

How exactly Barry died in the actual continuity, when Wally was Kid Flash, when he took the mantle of Flash etc. I know Barry's death was explained in this thread but the whole concept is a bit confusing to me.
http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=19188

[Paradox]

Yes, I have to agree that Barry and Wally's story is probably the EASIEST to understand. Everything happened more or less just the way the comics told from the beginning all the way through, except the Anti-Monitor's cannon had a slightly different purpose.

[Buried Alien]

Any interactions that Barry or Wally had with Pre-CRISIS characters have naturally changed. For example, in Post-CRISIS continuity, Barry probably never met Wonder Woman (at least not the Princess Diana version), the Marvel Family (who didn't debut until after the Crisis in Post-CRISIS continuity), or the original Kara Zor-El Supergirl (who didn't exist in this continuity). Also, Barry never went to Earth-2 to meet Jay Garrick (the replacement story is told in LIFE STORY OF THE FLASH) because there was no Earth-2 to travel to. So yes, even Barry and Wally's histories were affected to some extent.


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[barbgrayson]

i believe the memory that was erased was that there was once an infinite number of earths... not the crisis event even hal jordan as parallax made mention of the crisis when he talked about how he started the zero hour fiasco to guy gardner i believe it was during that time only the psycho pirate who had a vivid memory of what exactly happened during the crisis

[Buried Alien]

i believe the memory that was erased was that there was once an infinite number of earths... not the crisis event even hal jordan as parallax made mention of the crisis when he talked about how he started the zero hour fiasco to guy gardner i believe it was during that time only the psycho pirate who had a vivid memory of what exactly happened during the crisis

There was a Crisis event, but it wasn't the Crisis on *Infinite Earths*. It's more than memories being erased; it's an entire line of comic-book reality being erased. Only a select few "above the fray" cosmic-types know the truth.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Paradox]

Buried Alien is the Fastest Flash Fan Alive:

Any interactions that Barry or Wally had with Pre-CRISIS characters have naturally changed. For example, in Post-CRISIS continuity, Barry probably never met Wonder Woman (at least not the Princess Diana version), the Marvel Family (who didn't debut until after the Crisis in Post-CRISIS continuity), or the original Kara Zor-El Supergirl (who didn't exist in this continuity). Also, Barry never went to Earth-2 to meet Jay Garrick (the replacement story is told in LIFE STORY OF THE FLASH) because there was no Earth-2 to travel to. So yes, even Barry and Wally's histories were affected to some extent.

Bah. Mere detail nitpicking, my dear Buried. ;)

[Kevin Street]

There was a Crisis event, but it wasn't the Crisis on *Infinite Earths*. It's more than memories being erased; it's an entire line of comic-book reality being erased. Only a select few "above the fray" cosmic-types know the truth.

And to elaborate on what you're saying - in a way, what the DC heroes remember now is the truth. The Crisis happened two different ways on two different timelines, and both are real in the sense that they actually happened. Nobody has "false" memories or anything.

(But I have to wonder how much they remember of Earth 2 Superman going to his final reward. How did that play out in the revised version of Crisis as a time event?)

[Buried Alien]

(But I have to wonder how much they remember of Earth 2 Superman going to his final reward. How did that play out in the revised version of Crisis as a time event?)

There were no witnesses to Kal-L's final victory over the Anti-Monitor other than the Superboy of Earth-Prime and maybe Alexander Luthor of Earth-3, and both of them joined Kal-L in "Heaven" after the final battle of the Crisis. Even in the unaltered Pre-CRISIS timeline, none of the surviving heroes that returned to Earth knew of Kal-L's final fate (only that he obviously won the final battle because the Anti-Monitor did not plague them again).



Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Kevin Street]

Hmmm, interesting. But then, who delivered the final blow to Anti Monitor in the revised Crisis? Was it the Superman who exists today? :confused:

[Paul Newell]

Hmmm, interesting. But then, who delivered the final blow to Anti Monitor in the revised Crisis? Was it the Superman who exists today? :confused:
My guess would be that the fight ended when the heroes focused their powers on Dr. Light and she blew the Anti-Monitor away.

[Buried Alien]

Hmmm, interesting. But then, who delivered the final blow to Anti Monitor in the revised Crisis? Was it the Superman who exists today? :confused:

I remember that one of the SECRET FILES books released in the late 1990s (I think it was JLA IN CRISIS: SECRET FILES or some such...a one-shot dedicated to memorializing the JLA's historical biggest battles up to that point) mentioned that the Anti-Monitor was finally destroyed when Superman (meaning the Post-CRISIS Superman) threw him into the sun. That might or might not still be considered canon.


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Paul Newell]

I remember that one of the SECRET FILES books released in the late 1990s (I think it was JLA IN CRISIS: SECRET FILES or some such...a one-shot dedicated to memorializing the JLA's historical biggest battles up to that point) mentioned that the Anti-Monitor was finally destroyed when Superman (meaning the Post-CRISIS Superman) threw him into the sun. That might or might not still be considered canon.


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
The only prolem with that BA is that both the pages depicting the Crisis and the pages of the first JLA/JSA team up were, very clearly, the Pre-Crisis versions...Something I found, at the time, very interesting for DC to acknowledge.

But it would be very logical for it to be the Earth1 Superman to have taken Kal-L's place. Though it does bring up another question....Was Alexander Luthor around? And if not, well, who opened the portal to the Anti-Matter Universe? :)

[Buried Alien]

The only prolem with that BA is that both the pages depicting the Crisis and the pages to the first JLA/JSA team up depicted were, very clearly, the Pre-Crisis versions

Another problematic matter is the Post-CRISIS Superman's power level at the stage of his career when the Post-CRISIS Crisis (what a hell of an unwieldy name) occurred: that was Pre-Doomsday, which is kind of the turning point for the Post-CRISIS Superman as far as the growth and development of his powers. The Byrned Superman couldn't get far into space under his own power, and needed an oxygen mask to boot. I don't think he would've been strong enough to hurl the Anti-Monitor into the sun: that's something that only Kal-L or the Pre-CRISIS Kal-El should have been capable of.



Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Matt]

The last (and only time, come to think of it) I've seen that battle depicted from the post-crisis viewpoint was in a Flash story that had Wally time travelling back to that point.
The battle, at least in that story, did indeed look like finishing when the female Dr Light (whatever happened to her anyhow?) got a power boost and blasted the Anti-Monitor to itty bitty pieces.

[Paul Newell]

The last (and only time, come to think of it) I've seen that battle depicted from the post-crisis viewpoint was in a Flash story that had Wally time travelling back to that point.
The battle, at least in that story, did indeed look like finishing when the female Dr Light (whatever happened to her anyhow?) got a power boost and blasted the Anti-Monitor to itty bitty pieces.
Ending the battle at that point gets rid of a few other problems as well, as the first thing the Anti-Monitor does when he rises to attack again is blast Wonder Woman out of existence....At a time Diana had yet to leave Paradise Island and become Wonder Woman.

EDIT: Forgot to add....The female Dr. Light quit after her brief career and went back to astronomy. I vaguely remember a much later story arc in one of the JLI titles where she guest starred and stated as such.

[Buried Alien]

It's also as anticlimatic as hell, however. There's a sort of poetic justice in having the very first superhero and DC's eternal icon put down the most destructive villain in DC history; for a minor character created expressly for the CRISIS and then seldom heard from again after that to do it seems kind of...meh. :)


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Matt]

Ah great, now you've got me curious about the exact sequence of events in that comic ... have to go find it now. Flash #150, here we come...

(wow, I'd forgotten how good Paul Pelletier's pencilling work looks)


Let's see. Wally zips back to the final Crisis Battle where a gigantic Anti-Monitor is doing to meglomanical speech thing while crushing several heroes .. the heroes aren't doing so well because the AM is more powerful because Barry died before the AM's cannon could be destroyed.
Wally joins in the fight by launching rather huge objects at the AM at super speed and speeding up the assorted heroes.
Dr Light absorbs energy from the anti-matter star overhead and uses the power boost to fell the Anti-Monitor.

(of course, due to the plot the AM gets straight back up and kills everyone but that's not important)

Wally's internal monologue certainly strongly suggests that the battle did end with Dr Light's attack - it seems it was that which was the final blow against the Anti-Monitor.

[Paul Newell]

It's also as anticlimatic as hell, however. There's a sort of poetic justice in having the very first superhero and DC's eternal icon put down the most destructive villain in DC history; for a minor character created expressly for the CRISIS and then seldom heard from again after that to do it seems kind of...meh. :)


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
I agree entirely, but the Dr. Light thing makes much more sense...After all the Monitor did create her to defeat the Anti-Monitor, though she had all the help and powers of the DC heroes that entered the Anti-Matter Universe to do it.

[Paradox]

While I loved the actual ending, I thought the "we killed him...no, here he comes again" bit over and over and over was pretty anti-climactic. I'll lose GA Supes if we can lose that bit, too.

[Matt]

EDIT: Forgot to add....The female Dr. Light quit after her brief career and went back to astronomy. I vaguely remember a much later story arc in one of the JLI titles where she guest starred and stated as such.

Hmm, I may be mistaken but I seem to recall her appearing in the Eclipso annuals.

You know, rereading Flash #150 ... it would have been such a perfect way for the character of Wally West to have been retired.
Not that I'm saying he should have been (then we'd never have gotten the great current Geoff Johns issues) but it would have been the absolute perfect send off.

[Buried Alien]

While I loved the actual ending, I thought the "we killed him...no, here he comes again" bit over and over and over was pretty anti-climactic. I'll lose GA Supes if we can lose that bit, too.

But Dox, then we wouldn't have had that double-sized final issue that we forked over...how much *did* we fork over in 1985 for the privilege of buying that last issue? :)

But the seeming unkillability of the Anti-Monitor is what made that issue so gripping. It wouldn't have been the same if the Anti-Monitor folded faster than a cheap K-Mart tent.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Paradox]

One man's suspense is another man's tedium.

Best case scenario, of course, would just be to have him go down, and come back ONCE and then let Kal-L take him out.

But...not an option in the present day DCU scenario we're talking about.

So, who would you choose to be the one to take out the big, bad A-M, then?

Heh, Sandman and Crimson Avenger hold the "first" position now, IIRC, and I can hardly see old Wesley sleep-gassing ol' chalk face into submission. :p

Kal-El is always a possibility (probable, most likely) but that's so cliché. It wasn't so much with Kal-L because he was always a tad further down on the scale the the Earth-1 version. He eeked his way out with "grit"!

I think to make it work both in continuity and story/drama-wise we'd almost have to come up with a completely new ending.

[Matt]

I'd also make the ending completely different.

I'd have the amassed Earth heroes all gathered to fight the Anti-Monitor but after a short battle they realise that they have absolutely no hope at all of winning. But they fight on regardless ... all looks bleak when in swoops the Green Lantern Corps (weary from battling the weaponers of Qward but still eager for a good fight). They get in some shots and together with the Earth Heroes they make some headway ... but they can't seem to make any decisive damage and slowly they're being forced back.
At which point an unearthly voice is heard from all around them and a gigantic Spectre, pissed off from his earlier failure and a talking down he received from his boss, materialises. He says a sentence or two about the greatest possible number of souls cry out for vengeance, etc ... and the final battle ensues with the Spectre being the decisive factor in the fight.

[Paul Newell]

But...not an option in the present day DCU scenario we're talking about.

So, who would you choose to be the one to take out the big, bad A-M, then?

If it was present day, he'd be taken out by Batman! ;)

[west3man]

Ah great, now you've got me curious about the exact sequence of events in that comic ... have to go find it now. Flash #150, here we come...

(wow, I'd forgotten how good Paul Pelletier's pencilling work looks)


Let's see. Wally zips back to the final Crisis Battle where a gigantic Anti-Monitor is doing to meglomanical speech thing while crushing several heroes .. Would that be... "monologuing?" :D

[west3man]

I don't know if anyone mentioned it, as I only got through the first four pages or so, but even though Barry couldn't have gone to Earth 2 to have met Jay Garrick, he DID MEET Jay Garrick, because Jay has mentioned how he felt when Barry asked if he could use the name.

Neat stuff.

(That said, I'm bothered by a revision of the revision vehicle. It's never made sense to me and still doesn't.)

[Typo Lad]

I don't know if anyone mentioned it, as I only got through the first four pages or so, but even though Barry couldn't have gone to Earth 2 to have met Jay Garrick, he DID MEET Jay Garrick, because Jay has mentioned how he felt when Barry asked if he could use the name.

Neat stuff.

(That said, I'm bothered by a revision of the revision vehicle. It's never made sense to me and still doesn't.)

They explained it in Life Story of the Flash. Want I should mail you my copy?

[DDM]

I agree entirely, but the Dr. Light thing makes much more sense...After all the Monitor did create her to defeat the Anti-Monitor, though she had all the help and powers of the DC heroes that entered the Anti-Matter Universe to do it.

The Anti-Monitor shifted the entire positive matter Earth into the anti-matter universe in Crisis On Infinite Earths #11-12. Alexander Luthor absorbed the energy of one star; whereas, Dr. Light absorbed the energy of the other binary star. Alexander Luthor & Dr. Light were weakening the Anti-Monitor indirectly. The other heroes were weakening the Anti-Monitor directly. Also, the magicians changed the shadow demons nature so when the Anti-Monitor--desperate for energy--absorbed them, the changed shadow demons acted like noxious poisons in his body.

Alexander Luthor used his vast powers to shift the Earth back into its rightful orbit in the positive matter universe. The Earth-2 Superman & Earth-prime Superboy--no longer in true existence anymore--stayed to kill the Anti-Monitor. I believe Alexander Luthor teleported Superman, Superboy, Lois Lane & himself to Heaven, although he just stated the place to be "paradise." I also believe all of this really happened, but it was faded from the survivors' memories as a kind of cosmic adjustment.

[west3man]

They explained it in Life Story of the Flash. Want I should mail you my copy?
I've got that book. I thought I'd read the whole thing, but this is the second time someone's said something I don't remember from it. I guess it was too many years, ago... but still.

Hmm. I'm going to have to flip through it, again, soon.

Thanks, though.

[Indy24LA]

Can anyone cobble together a sort of check list of comics after Crisis on Infinite Earths that refer to it.

[Paul Newell]

Can anyone cobble together a sort of check list of comics after Crisis on Infinite Earths that refer to it.
Too many just mention in passing, or do you mean show parts of?

So far we have for actually showing parts:

Flash #150
JLA: Incarnations #5

And I have a nagging feeling that one of the early Flash Secret Files had something.

[sikkbones]

They explained it in Life Story of the Flash. Want I should mail you my copy?
can i have a copy?

[sikkbones]

The Anti-Monitor shifted the entire positive matter Earth into the anti-matter universe in Crisis On Infinite Earths #11-12. Alexander Luthor absorbed the energy of one star; whereas, Dr. Light absorbed the energy of the other binary star. Alexander Luthor & Dr. Light were weakening the Anti-Monitor indirectly. The other heroes were weakening the Anti-Monitor directly. Also, the magicians changed the shadow demons nature so when the Anti-Monitor--desperate for energy--absorbed them, the changed shadow demons acted like noxious poisons in his body.

Alexander Luthor used his vast powers to shift the Earth back into its rightful orbit in the positive matter universe. The Earth-2 Superman & Earth-prime Superboy--no longer in true existence anymore--stayed to kill the Anti-Monitor. I believe Alexander Luthor teleported Superman, Superboy, Lois Lane & himself to Heaven, although he just stated the place to be "paradise." I also believe all of this really happened, but it was faded from the survivors' memories as a kind of cosmic adjustment.

why wouldn't superboy still exist in the post-crisis?
would have made things easy for the legion of superheros .. or was that the earth prime superboy?

[sikkbones]

Too many just mention in passing, or do you mean show parts of?

So far we have for actually showing parts:

Flash #150
JLA: Incarnations #5

And I have a nagging feeling that one of the early Flash Secret Files had something.

the superman comics that had the legion and superboy (pocket universe version) refer to it quite a lot...

[Paul Newell]

why wouldn't superboy still exist in the post-crisis?
would have made things easy for the legion of superheros .. or was that the earth prime superboy?

That was the Earth-Prime Superboy. He had nothing to do with the Legion.

[Paul Newell]

the superman comics that had the legion and superboy (pocket universe version) refer to it quite a lot...

But they don't really explain much. Superboy mentions the red skies and the wall of anti-matter, but then it all disappeared. The Time Trapper mentions snatching the "pocket of time" while the Crisis was happening, though, from what I remember, the Crisis is never actually mentioned by name.

the issues I listed actually show segments of the Crisis as it happened Post-Crisis. Not just mention it.

[sikkbones]

so is the pocket universe the earth prime superboy?
if he remebers the crisis

why didnt superboy exsist in the new universe?
was that just an editoral decison?

wouldnt he have just become the young superman in smallville ?

[Paul Newell]

so is the pocket universe the earth prime superboy?
if he remebers the crisis

why didnt superboy exsist in the new universe?
was that just an editoral decison?

wouldnt he have just become the young superman in smallville ?
He wasn't the Earth-Prime Superboy he was a dimensional alternative of the Pre-Crisis Superboy. There's a bit of info about him, as well as the behind the scenes stuff in the Legion FAQ on the FAQ Forum. :)

[sikkbones]

link???please?

[Paul Newell]

At the top of the board you'll see a link to the FAQ Forum. The thread is there. :)

[Paradox]

sikkbones needs his questions answered:

so is the pocket universe the earth prime superboy?

Nope. The pocket-universe Superboy was an attempt at "fixing" the Legion's history after Man of Steel indicated that Superman had never been Superboy in the first place. Paul Levitz and John Byrne got together to try and repair the Legion's history to have it both ways. IMHO, it caused more trouble and confusion instead of less. It probably would have been better to excise Superboy from the Legion mythology right away, as they did later on, and replace him with Lar Gand/Mon-el/Valor.

why didnt superboy exsist in the new universe?
was that just an editoral decison?

More or less, yeah. The "disappearance" of Superboy didn't have much to do with Crisis, but rather with the Superman revamp in Man of Steel a year later. Byrne's idea, from what I heard, but certainly with editorial approval.

[sikkbones]

thank you...
where does cosmic boys legends story fit into current contuinty?
and did barry allen still live in the 30th century in post-crisis, zero hour contuinity?

[Buried Alien]

and did barry allen still live in the 30th century in post-crisis, zero hour contuinity?

Yes, he did. Barry spent a happy final month of his life in the 30th Century with his wife Iris before perishing in the Crisis. What we've since learned, however, is that during that one month, he had one visit with his grandchild XS and at least two visits with Wally (one in which Wally came to the 30th Century, and one in which Barry briefly returned to the 20th/21st Century).



Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[sikkbones]

Of course, Supergirl died in CRISSIS ON INFINTE EARTHS NO. 7 (October 1985), but the last Supergirl's appearance as Kara without her Supercostume, will occur in CHRISTMAS WITH THE SUPER-HEROES NO.2 (1989), not in a Superman story but in a Deadman story written by Alan Brennert and drawn by Dick Giordano. Deadman complains, in Christmas Day, about nobody sees him helping people, when someone who sees him, tells him about the silent and altruistic work of the Super-Heroes, and refering to herself says: "...We do it because it needs to be done. Because if we don't, no one else will. And we do it even if no one knows what we've done. Even if no one knows we exists". When Deadman ask for her name, she answers: "My name is Kara. Though I doubt that'll mean anything to you."

[sikkbones]

Yes, he did. Barry spent a happy final month of his life in the 30th Century with his wife Iris before perishing in the Crisis. What we've since learned, however, is that during that one month, he had one visit with his grandchild XS and at least two visits with Wally (one in which Wally came to the 30th Century, and one in which Barry briefly returned to the 20th/21st Century).



Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

was wally the flash or kid flash at the time?

[Paradox]

sikkbones finds other details:

where does cosmic boys legends story fit into current contuinty?

He's got to be completely cut out of that, I think, unless someone wants to invoke the Hypertime clause. That Cos "never existed" due to the Legion's Zero Hour reboot (except in that one Time Trapper story that I never could understand EXACTLY how all those alternate Legions fit in).

and did barry allen still live in the 30th century in post-crisis, zero hour contuinity?

That he did, and he and Iris sired twins who each has super-hero speedster children. Impulse (now Kid Flash over in Teen Titans), who came back to this century, and XS (jury's still out about her "existence" until we find out exactly what's currently going on in the Legion's new title), a Legionnaire in the 30th/31st Century. Barry's appearances in Crisis and his subsequent death take place after that.

[fumetti]

I bet DC now wished it never bothered with Crisis On Infinite Earths. Parallel universes are INFINITELY easier to understand than this crock of horse**** that now constitutes DC's "continuity."

I was there when Crisis happened. I loved it. I wanted all the Earths' characters to be on the same world. I wanted more frequent interaction between the "Earth One" and "Earth Two" characters.

I knew--I KNEW--there was trouble brewing when DC refused to restart the Batman continuity. Fans immediately wanted to know which of their old comics counted as official Bat-continuity and which were retconned out of existence. DC's answer? Basically, "we'll be making that up as we go." I knew that was going to be trouble. But the real trouble didn't come until HAWKWORLD. DC already had shown that the Silver Age Hawkman was part of the new post-Crisis continuity when the new Superman met the old Hawkman. But Hawkworld was so good, DC wanted it to be the official post-Crisis Hawkman storyline. They simply ignored that issue of Superman's appearance. Then came Green Lantern Emerald Dawn, rewriting Hal Jordan's origin. DC jumped from the young Hal in ED1 and ED2 to the older, graying Hal in GL #1. Inbetween those years? A lot of vague adventures pulled from his pre-Crisis issues.

The big problem was that they should have restarted everything else when they restarted Superman. There is simply WAY too much pre-Crisis interaction between Superman and everybody else.

Case in point: IDENTITY CRISIS. The whole story is based on JL-of-A continuity from the late 1970s. Wasn't that retconned away by Crisis? How can Superman have been a part of that old era JL-of-A when he never met them as they were back then? Barry Allen is a big part