Sauron in the Warhammer Fantasy world

[T-1000]

Pretty simple, Sauron (with the Ring) gets transplanted from the Tolkienverse to the Warhammer Fantasy world, along with all of Mordor and all his armies (including the Ring Wraiths).

How well does he do?

[LibrarianThorne]

Well, I wouldn't bet heavily on the Empire or Bretonnia being able to stop him. If this is pre_War of the Beard/War of Vengeance, the High Elf/Dwarf alliance slaughters him so horrendously hardcore. Post that war, an alliance of Empire and Dwarfs could likely stop him. Slaan would out magic him so tremendously it's silly, not to mention what a horde of Chaos would do to him...

[Rabid Trekkie]

Is this the universe with the insane space marines and other weird stuff? If so Sauron needs some new ground troops and fast.

[T-1000]

Is this the universe with the insane space marines and other weird stuff? If so Sauron needs some new ground troops and fast.

No, that's Warhammer 40K. The Warhammer Fantasy world is designed by the same people, but is a very different setting.

[Anthony Johanson]

Is this the universe with the insane space marines and other weird stuff? If so Sauron needs some new ground troops and fast.

No, its the one in the past, but I doubt Sauron could survive getting blasted by the magics of the warhammer world, or at least the forces of chaos.

[LibrarianThorne]

No, its the one in the past, but I doubt Sauron could survive getting blasted by the magics of the warhammer world, or at least the forces of chaos.

Warhammer Fantasy is not the past of Warhammer 40,000. Warhammer 40,000 is *our* universe in the 41st millenium, the Warhammer World of Warhammer Fantasy is a separate world/universe.

And I agree, Chaos is the deciding factor here. Sauron's evil is *nothing* compared to these guys. Tzeentch makes Sauron look like a schoolyard bully trying to fight the Joker.

[Anthony Johanson]

Warhammer Fantasy is not the past of Warhammer 40,000. Warhammer 40,000 is *our* universe in the 41st millenium, the Warhammer World of Warhammer Fantasy is a separate world/universe.

And I agree, Chaos is the deciding factor here. Sauron's evil is *nothing* compared to these guys. Tzeentch makes Sauron look like a schoolyard bully trying to fight the Joker.

I meant by the past is what you just said.

[Jagatai_Khan]

Sauron could manage to carve himself out a little Empire somewhere, I think. Other warlords, wizards, and generals managed to do that from time to time. Granted, he probably wouldn't be such a major player in a world full of beings of similar power to himself, but he'd be noticeable.

People would probably just assume that he's another Tomb King or Vampire Count, since that's what he and his magics most closely resemble. Of course, the fact that his realm controls vast armies of Orcs and Goblins would confuse some folks.

For that matter, actually, I think the TK and VCs would be his best bet for allies, given that they're of similar mind.

[Jagatai_Khan]

Warhammer Fantasy is not the past of Warhammer 40,000. Warhammer 40,000 is *our* universe in the 41st millenium, the Warhammer World of Warhammer Fantasy is a separate world/universe.

And I agree, Chaos is the deciding factor here. Sauron's evil is *nothing* compared to these guys. Tzeentch makes Sauron look like a schoolyard bully trying to fight the Joker.

What, are we going to plant Mordor in the middle of the Chaos wastes, between the Empire and the north?

I don't see how Chaos's evil is so much worse than Sauron. He wants to conquer the whole mortal world and visit untold oppression and suffering and terror upon them. The Chaos Gods.... want to conquer the mortal world and visit untold oppression and suffering upon them.

Not seeing a huge difference, other than the fact that the Chaos gods are also insane and far less well-organized that Sauron, especially now that Archaon is dead at the hands of Valten and Karl Franz.

[Grazzt]

Something that should be noted is that Sauron is not too proud to serve. He may operate under a more powerful warlord (as a vassal) for a bit, so that he can bring his magicks up to the Warhammer level.

[Mole_mans_revenge]

he would prolly get impaled on a bolt thrower lol.

i believe as others have said, that he would be defeated by the awsome magics of the fantasy universe.

[T-1000]

Well, I wouldn't bet heavily on the Empire or Bretonnia being able to stop him. If this is pre_War of the Beard/War of Vengeance, the High Elf/Dwarf alliance slaughters him so horrendously hardcore. Post that war, an alliance of Empire and Dwarfs could likely stop him. Slaan would out magic him so tremendously it's silly, not to mention what a horde of Chaos would do to him...

Aye, but what happens when someone like Gotrak goes up against the Witch King!

[Anthony Johanson]

What, are we going to plant Mordor in the middle of the Chaos wastes, between the Empire and the north?

I don't see how Chaos's evil is so much worse than Sauron. He wants to conquer the whole mortal world and visit untold oppression and suffering and terror upon them. The Chaos Gods.... want to conquer the mortal world and visit untold oppression and suffering upon them.

Not seeing a huge difference, other than the fact that the Chaos gods are also insane and far less well-organized that Sauron, especially now that Archaon is dead at the hands of Valten and Karl Franz.

Well, T-1000 didn't explain where Sauron was, but either way, he gets pwnd.

The Chaos Gods are different than Sauron, Khorne is maybe identical to him, but the others are different, Nurgle wants to disease the Warhammer World, while Tzeentch wants the people to die in a mutation of change, and Slannesh wants the people to die in a perversion of self-indulgence and joy. They all think differently.

If the Chaos forces know that there is a threat, they will band together (at least for the moment) to repel the threat and if Sauron thinks he can destroy them, he is going to get owned bad. Although Chaos's lack of missile would hinder them a bit, with their magics (think green flame, violet flame, pestilence, etc.) Sauron gets whupped.

Archeaon would have won if Grimgor had not butted in, damn him.

[Jagatai_Khan]

i believe as others have said, that he would be defeated by the awsome magics of the fantasy universe.

Nobody here has yet to show *how* Sauron would get pwned. Furthermore, he's got some awesome magic of his own. It's not like he's just a mortal in black armor. He's a creature of living flame, a Maiar. Sauron is, for all intents and purposes, a Greater Daemon/Daemon Prince. Which is inferior to the Chaos Gods, true. But it's not so little that he would just get rolled over.

[Jagatai_Khan]

The Chaos Gods are different than Sauron, Khorne is maybe identical to him, but the others are different, Nurgle wants to disease the Warhammer World, while Tzeentch wants the people to die in a mutation of change, and Slannesh wants the people to die in a perversion of self-indulgence and joy. They all think differently.

If the Chaos forces know that there is a threat, they will band together (at least for the moment) to repel the threat and if Sauron thinks he can destroy them, he is going to get owned bad. Although Chaos's lack of missile would hinder them a bit, with their magics (think green flame, violet flame, pestilence, etc.) Sauron gets whupped.

Once again, you guys are ignoring several things:

1) Sauron *also* has some pretty powerful magic, as do his leutenients. Black Breath, anyone? Morgul Blades? The Storm of Ash?

2) Sauron isn't stupid. He knows how to bide his time, he knows how to play dumb and play weak, and he isn't too proud to serve or to follow a power greater than himself. He followed Morgoth, after all.

The perfect strategy for Sauron: Say hello to Sauron, new Champion of Chaos , Lord of the End Times, Daemon Prince of Chaos United.

In Sauron's mind, if ruling the world means having none except for the 4 powers of Chaos above him, then he'd be willing to live with that.

[The Watcher]

Let's not throw pejoratives around. This can be debated in a civil manner.

[Donald Stone]

The perfect strategy for Sauron: Say hello to Sauron, new Champion of Chaos , Lord of the End Times, Daemon Prince of Chaos United.

In Sauron's mind, if ruling the world means having none except for the 4 powers of Chaos above him, then he'd be willing to live with that.At least, until he figures out how to take them out as well. But Sauron's got time. He's what you'ed call a long term planner:)

[Jagatai_Khan]

Character limit dance.

[Jared]

But Sauron's got time. He's what you'ed call a long term planner:)

So is Tzeentch.

[Jared]

Warhammer Fantasy is not the past of Warhammer 40,000. Warhammer 40,000 is *our* universe in the 41st millenium, the Warhammer World of Warhammer Fantasy is a separate world/universe.


Well they do still hint pretty strongly at the Warhammer Fantasy world* being some isolated planet in time-warp in the 40K setting, or some other, vaguer connection.

BTW, is there any name for the world?

[Winterwolf]

Well they do still hint pretty strongly at the Warhammer Fantasy world* being some isolated planet in time-warp in the 40K setting, or some other, vaguer connection.

BTW, is there any name for the world?

I think GW has always left it up to the individual players as to how the 40k and fantasy worlds are connected (if at all).

As for the battle, I think Sauron takes a large chunk of land and has a sizeable empire, probably in the south, I think he niether conquers the Fantasy world But I don't think he is totally defeated.

I think If the Good armies in the fantasy world are capable of feding off Hoards of Orcs, Chaos Incursions etc. they can do the same with Sauron, but are so weakened in the process that they can't finish the job by totally defeating finishing him off.

I really don't know how he would interact with the Neutral and evil armies to tell you the truth.

[Anthony Johanson]

Once again, you guys are ignoring several things:

1) Sauron *also* has some pretty powerful magic, as do his leutenients. Black Breath, anyone? Morgul Blades? The Storm of Ash?

2) Sauron isn't stupid. He knows how to bide his time, he knows how to play dumb and play weak, and he isn't too proud to serve or to follow a power greater than himself. He followed Morgoth, after all.

The perfect strategy for Sauron: Say hello to Sauron, new Champion of Chaos , Lord of the End Times, Daemon Prince of Chaos United.

In Sauron's mind, if ruling the world means having none except for the 4 powers of Chaos above him, then he'd be willing to live with that.

Once again, you are missing some things:

1) Khorne, if you remember, his troops are nigh invulnerable to magic so he takes care of the magic users while the others mop the rest up.

2) Neither is Tzeentch, he would know if Sauron is playing dumb or stupid, after all, he knows all, as soon as he tries that, Tzeentch tells the others, and they are still tearing Sauron apart.

You are also forgetting a fctor, Daemons, I dont think any of Sauron's forces can survive the kind of pain they bring, especially the greater ones.

Say hello to Sauron: Rotting corpse on Chaos Wastes

[SAMAS]

Once again, you guys are ignoring several things:

1) Sauron *also* has some pretty powerful magic, as do his leutenients. Black Breath, anyone? Morgul Blades? The Storm of Ash?

That's nothing. You can find stuff in the Hordes of Chaos Army book that outdoes most of that.

And in the fluff: One of my favorite stories they has was about this tatooed man who walks into an inn, and starts striking up a conversation with a warrior. He talks to the warrior about a Tattooed champion of Tzeentch who was a mighty warrior, until he was killed in battle. But the man who killed the Chaos Champion soon took on the tattoos and allegiance of the man he killed.

For centuries this went on, the Tattoo passing on to the warrior who killed it's present bearer. Until one day, a man actually rejected it. So this warrior came up to the guy(who was the rejector), and asked him: If given a second chance, would the man reject such power again?

The man in the tavern turns around, the tattoos now covering his body, smiles at the now lifeless(and unmarked) corpse of the man who walked in, and says: "I thought not."

[jadehorde]

That's nothing. You can find stuff in the Hordes of Chaos Army book that outdoes most of that.

And in the fluff: One of my favorite stories they has was about this tatooed man who walks into an inn, and starts striking up a conversation with a warrior. He talks to the warrior about a Tattooed champion of Tzeentch who was a mighty warrior, until he was killed in battle. But the man who killed the Chaos Champion soon took on the tattoos and allegiance of the man he killed.

For centuries this went on, the Tattoo passing on to the warrior who killed it's present bearer. Until one day, a man actually rejected it. So this warrior came up to the guy(who was the rejector), and asked him: If given a second chance, would the man reject such power again?

The man in the tavern turns around, the tattoos now covering his body, smiles at the now lifeless(and unmarked) corpse of the man who walked in, and says: "I thought not."


Maybe it's too late for me, but I can't quite follow what happened here. So the tattooed man died? And who got tattooed? Was there another warrior that entered into the conversation and asked tattoo guy the question?

[Lord of Nonsensical Crap]

'Tis a little off topic, I say.
In order to gain control of the Chaos hordes, Sauron would first have to defeat Archaon (who, despite what Jagatai says, did NOT die during the Storm of Chaos). And defeating the big guy would be no easy task: his daemon sword slices through armour with horrific ease, and the eye-artifact in the middle of his helmet's forehead allows him to predict his enemies' moves (and percieve their weaknesses -- such as the FINGER THAT HAS THE ONE RING ON IT)
If he tries to take over the Old World by himself, he'll have one hell of a fight on his hands -- the Empire and the Dwarfs have been fighting Orcs and Undead for centuries, and the other Orc Warlords and Vampire Counts would be none too happy about his meddling, either.

[Jagatai_Khan]

2) Neither is Tzeentch, he would know if Sauron is playing dumb or stupid, after all, he knows all, as soon as he tries that, Tzeentch tells the others, and they are still tearing Sauron apart.

Tzeentch wouldn't tell the others. Tzeentch doesn't even tell his greatest servants the truth half the time, even if it means thier deaths. He certainly does not share such valuable intelligence with the other Chaos Gods.

They don't call him "The Deciever" for nothing. Tzeentch is honest to nobody, and he holds any loyalty to his followers or allies as nothing. Tzeentch would probably encourage Sauron to try to become the new Archaeon, just to see what would happen. After all, having such a powerful pawn in his corner would be to his benefit.

[Jagatai_Khan]

If he tries to take over the Old World by himself,

Which he wouldn't do, so you can stop right there.

Why is it that everybody on this thread seems to think that Sauron is a stupid, incompetent, shortsighted brick who'll get eaten alive by Warhammer fantasy. Guys, the Warhammer Fantasy world ain't that tough. It's a generic fantasy world. It's not the be-all end-all of fantasy, just like Warhammer 40k is'nt the be-all end-all of Sci Fi.

Sauron is powerful, intelligent, crafty, and dangerous. He's a long-term planner, he's not too proud to retreat, and he knows how to get people on his side. He'll know when he's overmatched and he'll know when he needs to cool his heels and slowly build up forces.0 He's not going to get "pwned" or any other such rubbish. If you think he is, then you're either ignorant of the character, or you're just a WFB fanboy.

[Lord of Nonsensical Crap]

I never said he would be pwned (or at least, that easily anyway). I just said that Sauron will find that he'll have a lot of work on his hands if he tries to become a power in the Warhammer world.
Mind you, however, Sauron does have what it takes to become another power in the Warhammer world (though he'll probably have to bring his own Orcs -- the Orcs of WHFB are pretty resistant to subsversion by Chaos and other external powers). He'll have a lot of competition on his hands, but he could do it.

[Rabid Trekkie]

So pretty much Sauron is thrown in with a bunch of guys who are pretty much like him, just some having more power? He makes allies with one who can't read his mind and plays loyal servant for a few thousand years until he finally has the forces and power to destroy him.

Or maybe he would stay with that one lord if it would bring him enough power. He had no qualms making himself a chief lieutenant to Morgoth.

[Lord of Nonsensical Crap]

In terms of the craftiness factor, I'd say the one WHFB villian who matches him in that category is Malekith, the Witch King of the Dark Elves. In terms of intelligence, though, Sauron runs rings around Archaon.

[SAMAS]

Maybe it's too late for me, but I can't quite follow what happened here. So the tattooed man died? And who got tattooed? Was there another warrior that entered into the conversation and asked tattoo guy the question?

The guy who walked in was likely already dead. The Tattoo animated his body and sought out the guy who killed him before to re-make the offer.

[Jagatai_Khan]

I never said he would be pwned (or at least, that easily anyway). I just said that Sauron will find that he'll have a lot of work on his hands if he tries to become a power in the Warhammer world.
Mind you, however, Sauron does have what it takes to become another power in the Warhammer world (though he'll probably have to bring his own Orcs -- the Orcs of WHFB are pretty resistant to subsversion by Chaos and other external powers). He'll have a lot of competition on his hands, but he could do it.

It should be noted that the bulk of Sauron's forces overall were not, in fact, Orcs. They were the corrupted Easterling and Southron men. Haradrim, etc.

Orcs were fought the most by the armies of the West because they make for more evil protagonists, and Tolkien didn't want the heroes to be slaughtering other human beings, it doesn't make for as clear a Good vs Evil story if the foes you're felling aren't literally monsters.

Sauron is plenty good at corrupting men, and he'll do so at his earliest possible oppurtunity. Humans are plentiful in the WFB world, and that'll be the core of the Empire he builds. Sauron also has some extensive knowledge of Necromancy, and so undead and spirits will likely be a major factor.

[Grazzt]

Other factors in Sauron's favour:

1) Mordor is surrounded by mountains on three sides, making defense that much easier.
2) He also has the three Dwarven rings, which he might be able to use to corrupt powerful dwarves.
3) A decent supply of mithril, most of it carted off from Moria. Useful in trade.

I don't know if Sauron can conquer, but he certainly has a wonderful defensive position on his hands to build on.

[SAMAS]

Other factors in Sauron's favour:

1) Mordor is surrounded by mountains on three sides, making defense that much easier.

That doesn't help much against Night Goblins and Skaven.

2) He also has the three Dwarven rings, which he might be able to use to corrupt powerful dwarves.

Warhammer Dwarves are naturally magic-resistant.

3) A decent supply of mithril, most of it carted off from Moria. Useful in trade.

Depends on how it stacks up against Gromril.

[Grazzt]

That doesn't help much against Night Goblins and Skaven.

That's assuming that he ends up sharing one of his borders with either of those races.

Warhammer Dwarves are naturally magic-resistant.

So are Tolkien dwarves. But the Dwarven Rings still increased their lust for gold and other precious metals and stones. He might be able to use them to fuel trade wars or other disagreements amongst his enemies.

Depends on how it stacks up against Gromril.

Don't know about that one.

[LibrarianThorne]

That's assuming that he ends up sharing one of his borders with either of those races.



So are Tolkien dwarves. But the Dwarven Rings still increased their lust for gold and other precious metals and stones. He might be able to use them to fuel trade wars or other disagreements amongst his enemies.



Don't know about that one.

It's kind of hard to not encounter Skaven or especially Goblins. They're the kind of beings that get exactly where you don't want them to be.

As to Dwarfs, I highly doubt the rings will work on them. I don't think cross-universal items will work in the way they're intended to in a different universe. Could be wrong, though.

[Jagatai_Khan]

As to Dwarfs, I highly doubt the rings will work on them. I don't think cross-universal items will work in the way they're intended to in a different universe. Could be wrong, though.

The ring's didn't really work on Tolkien-dwarves either. Which is why when he took them back, he gave them to more lords of men instead. That's what the Mouth of Sauron was, among others. They just hadn't had enough time to turn into more Wraiths yet.

Sauron will have a plenty powerful empire in WFB once he starts handing out Greater Rings to power-hungry nobles and wizards.

[Gordon Smith]

The ring's didn't really work on Tolkien-dwarves either. Which is why when he took them back, he gave them to more lords of men instead. That's what the Mouth of Sauron was, among others. They just hadn't had enough time to turn into more Wraiths yet.



There is no textual evidence which even remotely suggests that Sauron handed out one of the Seven to anyone after he had retrieved them, much less to the Mouth of Sauron. While the latter was described as a sorcerer, it is nowhere hinted that he bore a Great Ring of any sort.

[LibrarianThorne]

I hadn't considered Sauron tempting power hungry nobles and wizards. That's a very, very, very viable tactic and Sauron is about as good at that as Tzeentch. He'd be able to carve himself a nice little empire, possibly even taking the Border Princes.

[Jared]

Weren't some of the Dwarven rings missing? ISTR some mention that some were suppossedly consumed by dragon fire, others just lost in caves.

The Mouth of Sauron was a Numenorean, IIRC.

[Jared]

I think GW has always left it up to the individual players as to how the 40k and fantasy worlds are connected (if at all).

As for the battle, I think Sauron takes a large chunk of land and has a sizeable empire, probably in the south, I think he niether conquers the Fantasy world But I don't think he is totally defeated.

I think If the Good armies in the fantasy world are capable of feding off Hoards of Orcs, Chaos Incursions etc. they can do the same with Sauron, but are so weakened in the process that they can't finish the job by totally defeating finishing him off.

I really don't know how he would interact with the Neutral and evil armies to tell you the truth.

Well from what i recall, they've had 40K items uncovered on the Fantasy world as mysterious artifacts, and a Daemon in 40K whose name and background matches nicely with a deamon from WFB. And of course, Sigmar's story sounds a bit like a Primarch's. And I recall someone mentioning that the rules in an older edition actually allowed the use of Chaos Space Marines in WFB.

[Gordon Smith]

Weren't some of the Dwarven rings missing? ISTR some mention that some were suppossedly consumed by dragon fire, others just lost in caves.



The Great Rings given to the Dwarves by Sauron are known as the Seven. According to Gandalf, whose version of these events is not disputed elsewhere, four of these rings were destroyed by dragons while the remaining three were eventually recovered by the Dark Lord.


The Mouth of Sauron was a Numenorean, IIRC.

The Mouth of Sauron was descended of the so-called Black Númenóreans, those men of Westernesse who fell into Sauron's service during the latter part of the Second Age. They survived into the Third Age, mingling with other races. The Mouth of Sauron is said to have enlisted in Sauron's cause after Barad-dûr rose again, an event which occurred in TA 2951 (some 67 years before the Quest was undertaken), so he was probably close to Aragorn and Denethor in age, though he might have been working on his second century. The Mouth of Sauron is said to have forgotten his name during his service with the Dark Lord, something I strongly suspect was not a natural event. I believe it probable that he voluntarily sacrificed this memory in order to acquire access to arcane lore, but that is admittedly speculation on my part.

[Jagatai_Khan]

There is no textual evidence which even remotely suggests that Sauron handed out one of the Seven to anyone after he had retrieved them, much less to the Mouth of Sauron. While the latter was described as a sorcerer, it is nowhere hinted that he bore a Great Ring of any sort.

Eh, okay, whatever. I still think it's at least implied. But it doesn't matter. Sauron *has* handed out Greater (and Lesser, for that matter) rings to people in order to get a hold on them, even if not specifically that guy, and to make them into usufully powerful tools. This scenario, with him winning nobles and other such to his side, will be no different.

Elector Counts, Knights, and especially Empire Wizards,of various sorts would be the perfect targets for such a ploy. As would Brettonian Knights and nobles to a lesser extent. Thier legendary chivalry and purity might protect them to some degree, with thier Empire equivalent's lack. On the other hand, the martial pride and arrogance of Brettonian nobility is also legendary, and such things are easily twisted to the service of Sauron, given time.