S/B #18: Changes for the Bat?

[the Monitor]

Mods: Very sorry if this discussion is started somewhere already. I really expected it to be and didn't see it.

I just ready Superman/Batman 18. Lots of interesting stuff, especially with all the larger stuff happening in the DCU this year.

For Batman, specifically, a major event has occured. The defining tragedy in his life has been tempered somewhat by actually getting to live a life with his parents, albeit in an alternate reality that exists as dim memories.

Also we have the events of Identity Crisis and Infinite Crisis having Batman confront his distrust of the League, which it seems is really metaphor for the inner darkness that has increasingly defined that character since Frank Miller's Year One. I'm not alone (i gather) in reading this on a meta level as a sort of "explaination" of the personality changes wrought on Bruce in the late 80s and afterwards.

Now, I prefer a little darkness in the Batman character, but do feel he has become perhaps a little too humorless over the years, a little too jerkish to those close to him. I've seen others express those sentiments as wel.

Any chance that finally getting to deal with the SOURCE of these feelings, coupled with an event that could be written to give Bruce SOME measure of inner peace (to wit, getting some time and love from his parents*) might lead to a slightly more human Batman; one, say, a little closer to the animated-JLU version?

[Jaye]

Mods: Very sorry if this discussion is started somewhere already. I really expected it to be and didn't see it.


No worries, thanks for checking.
For some reason a lot of the Superman/Batman gets discussed on the Superman board, but its more than welcome here as well.

[the Monitor]

No worries, thanks for checking.
For some reason a lot of the Superman/Batman gets discussed on the Superman board, but its more than welcome here as well.


Thanks. I posted in a thread on the Superman board too. But since this question really focuses on Bruce I thought I'd try it here. (Truth told, I think S/B discussions should be in the DCU forum...it's a far reaching book generally)

Think there's any merit to my little rambling?

[Gandt]

I'm not really sure how much of this arc is going to show up in other Bat-titles. I really think that you are right about Batman's attitude being a product of the mindwipe or whatever, but I'm not sure what they are going to do with it. I read in Wizard that Geoff Johns is writing the new Crisis, and that scares me a bit, because it seems that he has a general disgust for Batman, even though he is one of the most prolific writers out there.

[Forsaken_One]

I think they're generally discussed because most of it concerns Superman, with Batman helping. Just look at the first two arcs; we had Superman and Lex Luthor (with Batman) and Superman with Supergirl (with Batman).

As for the shift; I kinda hope it doesn't affect anything, primarily because I like to think of Superman/Batman as an elseworld and don't want Batman to start being changed based upon time travel and alternate reality. This is the same time I didn't want what happened in the recent Batman to happen; Batman's world should be more true to our world than most of the rest of the DCU.

Realistically I heavily doubt they're going to pull a arc from a non-Batman comic (and I don't think S/B is a Batman comic at all) as a major plot point and/or character moment for Batman core books. It seems to me most characters who have their own book largely ignore anything outside of that; Batman almost never mentions or calls the JLA in his core books, Robin didn't talk about Young Justice at all and hasn't talked about the Teen Titans in his own book, Nightwing hasn't started blathering on about Outsiders in his book, and so on. I know, I know, all Bat-books but that's what I read. Besides which, it just helps my point. :)

[Guts/Batman]

Realistically I heavily doubt they're going to pull a arc from a non-Batman comic (and I don't think S/B is a Batman comic at all) as a major plot point and/or character moment for Batman core books.


I got that sense too. I have only read S/B 11-13 so i may have no basis to be posting on this thread but i did think he was out of his element when he went to Apokolips.

When he says "I shouldn't be here. Gotham city is where i should be." I think he knows he was out of his league by taking on Darkseid on Apokolips..even if WW and Superman was with him.

[the Monitor]

Ordinarily I'd agree with Foresaken One completely about not using events from "other" books as impetus for character development within the core Bat books. It just seems that this particular personality trait of Batman -- his current assholishness -- is one of the running themes in the larger DCU stories right now. I COULD see events in these larger stories being pushed down to the core books.

I like the idea of reading S/B as an elseworlds!

I have a question sort of related to that....
In the first arc of S/B, Luthor is revealed as an egomaniac and left going "underground" swearing revenge. How did he get back to rich and powerful Luthor still being shown in the other DCU books? Or is this just a case of S/B as an Elseworlds?

[Sean Walsh]

In the first arc of S/B, Luthor is revealed as an egomaniac and left going "underground" swearing revenge. How did he get back to rich and powerful Luthor still being shown in the other DCU books? Or is this just a case of S/B as an Elseworlds?

Oh, S/B is not Elseworlds...

Lex is a criminal mastermind. He surely had enough cash stashed away to keep himself functioning in the evil underworld while the world at large thinks he's dead.

[Guts/Batman]

Oh, S/B is not Elseworlds...

Lex is a criminal mastermind. He surely had enough cash stashed away to keep himself functioning in the evil underworld while the world at large thinks he's dead.

Kinda like norman osborn before he "died"?

[the Monitor]

Oh, S/B is not Elseworlds...

Lex is a criminal mastermind. He surely had enough cash stashed away to keep himself functioning in the evil underworld while the world at large thinks he's dead.


I know it's not ACTUALLY an elseworlds..just wondering if this is a case of S/B continuity not matching up to DCU continuity.

And I can buy Lex having money stashed away to keep himself operating as a criminal mastermind. But in the current Question and Lex Luthor minis he is building a massive skyscraper and acting as head of LexCorp...that's a far cry from the disgraced and hiding Lex shown at the end of the first S/B arc.

So has there been an in story explanation as to how Lex returned to this status? Or did I just misread his status at the end of the S/B arc?

[Sean Walsh]

Didn't know this about the Question and Lex Luthor minis.....

Could it be that these minis take place in the past, before S/B #6? It does seem very odd that LexCorp, now owned by Bruce Wayne, is making a comeback. Batman would *kinda* know something about that...

[Forsaken_One]

Well the new Lex Luthor: Man of Steel mini was delayed for a year last I heard, and is supposed to have something to do with the old Man of Steel miniseries. I have no clue if the Quesiton miniseries was delayed as well, I just treat both as taking place in the past, even if the Science Spire doesn't seem to be in Metropolis at current.

[the Monitor]

Didn't know this about the Question and Lex Luthor minis.....

Could it be that these minis take place in the past, before S/B #6? It does seem very odd that LexCorp, now owned by Bruce Wayne, is making a comeback. Batman would *kinda* know something about that...


Actually, I'm realizing now that the "LexCorp" part was an assumption of mine. What the Lex Luthor mini showed is Lex being treated as head of SOME corporation with a janitor whom he knew by name and lots of corporate resources at his disposal. I assumed it was LexCorp, but it may not have been.

Be that as it may, it seems that there HASN'T been an explanation of Lex's move from cursing Superman from under a wharf in his armor to being back in business suit running an international corporation. So did I read the events of S/B wrong? Didn't the first arc end with Luthor being returned to criminal status?

[Forsaken_One]

Be that as it may, it seems that there HASN'T been an explanation of Lex's move from cursing Superman from under a wharf in his armor to being back in business suit running an international corporation. So did I read the events of S/B wrong? Didn't the first arc end with Luthor being returned to criminal status?
I think the explenation is no one but Loeb wanted the mad scientist/power suited Luthor back. Certainly it seemed out of character to me for Luthor to suddenly be injecting himself with Venom (a very harmful drug) laced with Kryptonite (which Luthor had to regrow his body/make a deal with the devil to get back to life thanks to it's poisoning his old body), get in a giant power suit, and fight Superman on national television when he was the President of the United States.

So I think the rest of the writers, in effect, said "well, it happened but he's better now." I think the same thing will happen next time we see Darkseid outside of Loeb's pen, or whatever else is in Superman/Batman. As I said, I try to read S/B as an elseworld; that solves a lot of continuity problems.

[Sean Walsh]

Well the new Lex Luthor: Man of Steel mini was delayed for a year last I heard, and is supposed to have something to do with the old Man of Steel miniseries. I have no clue if the Quesiton miniseries was delayed as well, I just treat both as taking place in the past, even if the Science Spire doesn't seem to be in Metropolis at current.

I *think* (and your mention of the Science Spire kinda reminds me of it) the Question mini was supposed to set in the Brainiac-enhanced Metropolis......which of course is gone now. Whether it was because it was delayed in shipping or written that way, I don't know...

The Lex Luthor mini was delayed quite a while, so hopefully that story has nothing to do with post-S/B#6 Luthor...

[the Monitor]

I think the explenation is no one but Loeb wanted the mad scientist/power suited Luthor back.

So I think the rest of the writers, in effect, said "well, it happened but he's better now." I think the same thing will happen next time we see Darkseid outside of Loeb's pen, or whatever else is in Superman/Batman. As I said, I try to read S/B as an elseworld; that solves a lot of continuity problems.


Yeah, I'm beginning to think you're right. If the other writers aren't going to follow up on such a huge development from that book it certainly can't hurt to treat it like an elseworlds

[Beastfan07]

I'm not really sure how much of this arc is going to show up in other Bat-titles. I really think that you are right about Batman's attitude being a product of the mindwipe or whatever, but I'm not sure what they are going to do with it. I read in Wizard that Geoff Johns is writing the new Crisis, and that scares me a bit, because it seems that he has a general disgust for Batman, even though he is one of the most prolific writers out there.

He does not have disgust for Batman, he just doesn't like the way he's portrayed right now.

[fuaak]

I think the explenation is no one but Loeb wanted the mad scientist/power suited Luthor back. Certainly it seemed out of character to me for Luthor to suddenly be injecting himself with Venom (a very harmful drug) laced with Kryptonite (which Luthor had to regrow his body/make a deal with the devil to get back to life thanks to it's poisoning his old body), get in a giant power suit, and fight Superman on national television when he was the President of the United States.

So I think the rest of the writers, in effect, said "well, it happened but he's better now." I think the same thing will happen next time we see Darkseid outside of Loeb's pen, or whatever else is in Superman/Batman. As I said, I try to read S/B as an elseworld; that solves a lot of continuity problems.

Very true. Basically, everything Loeb writes happens in Loebsville, and is effectively, if not officially, out of continuity.

[Lorendiac]

Very true. Basically, everything Loeb writes happens in Loebsville, and is effectively, if not officially, out of continuity.

Reminds me of what I saw someone say a few months ago, I think. "In his 'Chapter One' series about Spider-Man's early days, John Byrne asserted that Flint Marko (Sandman) was a long-lost relative of Norman Osborn. Like everything else Byrne does these days, this has been firmly ignored by every other writer."

Or words to that effect. It must be nice to be such a Big Name Writer that Marvel or DC will let you tell any kind of story you feel like telling about any character . . . while quietly permitting all the other writers to totally ignore your work as not really being "in continuity"; you're just tolerated because your name on a cover can add something to sales of the stuff you write, but has no impact on what anyone else writes after you're done! How lucky can a man get, I ask you? ;)

[Deathstroke]

Nicely handled wrap up to the story. I thought it got tied up quite nicely and we got the Adult Legion.

Which means that this book stays in my Legion collection rather than gets eBayed.

[Forefinger]

This arc has made me decide to start collecting this book again. I dropped it after the horrible one shot with Robin and Superboy, and then the Supergirl was the straw that broke the camel.
I was more concerned with Batman outright killing Ras in issue 18. He was supposedly himself again, but he chose to kill even though that's his core value. Maybe I'm reading it wrong though, I have just been picking up and reading this series in the comic book shop lately.

I wish that they would change the title to Trinity and feature Wonder Woman monthly in this title as well.