Bizarre GCD Omissions

[Slam_Bradley]

I've been picking up a number of Gladstone's EC Annuals lately. Wanting to look at a couple of things from the original source material, I hopped over to the Grand Comics Database. I then found that "Vault of Horror" is almost completely unindexed. This is classic EC, yet there are no covers, story descriptions, etc.

I don't know if I have a point. Just seemed pretty darn odd.

[TheHistorian]

It could be on someone's "reserved to index" list and has ended up idle. Or it could just be one of those weird things.

[Slam_Bradley]

I noticed there are missing issues of "Haunt of Fear" also. These just seem like such important books to be unfinished.

[Cei-U!]

This is especially odd when you consider how many affordable reproductions of these books exist.

Cei-U!
I summon the puzzlement!

[Lone Ranger]

As well as the fact that EC books are super easy to index, as much of the artwork is signed and/or the artists are very recognizable.

I understand that the GCD is a volunteer driven group, but I do find it annoying that so many issues are 'reserved' and yet there is no update for months and months.

As well, many book come up as 'indexed' when the info is incomplete or non-existant. This leads to corrections and additions - I have made a few, but some emails have gone unanswered.

[Sir Tim Drake]

They are also missing many, many issues of Creepy and Eerie. This is especially odd since indexing them would be as simple as copying the relevant data from The Warren Companion.

And on a more minor note, there were three New Teen Titans Drug Awareness Specials published in 1983, but the GCD only lists the first two; there is no indication that the third one even exists. So when I bought the third one, I was very confused and almost started a thread on this board to ask what it was that I had bought. Luckily a visit to www.titanstower.com cleared up my confusion.

[MDG]

As well as the fact that EC books are super easy to index, as much of the artwork is signed and/or the artists are very recognizable.
And the fact that ECs were (probably) among the first comics ever indexed,

MDG

[CArchivist]

FYI to all those who may not understand what is going on with missing titles.
The only reason those books do not appear is because no one has indexed them yet.
We are strictly a volunteer organization and as a result there are a number of key books that have far too few issues indexed yet, the previously mentioned E.C. books, but also significant runs of Archie, Sad Sack, Casper, Richie Rich, 2000AD, Beano, Dandy, Commando, and the thousands of comic-strip reprint books out there.
Anyone interested in indexing their issues?
By the way, we need the originals indexed when you are indexing the original issues, you should not index off a reprint--regardless of how much it is the same. There are always differences between the two an indexer might miss.
So, can I help anyone on this?

my best
-Ray Bottorff Jr
Board Chairman Grand Comic-Book Database

P.S. No email to the Error list goes unanswered. I, myself, have a backlog of over 300 email errors to go through this summer. Once the work is done, all is replied to. I extend my offer to anyone here to become an indexer so they can be a part of adding and fixing indexes.

P.P.S. If you see a book that is reserved that you'd like to index, contact us and we'll make sure that 1) it isn't already done, and 2) if the indexer who reserved it is interested in letting you have it. BUT you will need to become an active indexer.

[CArchivist]

They are also missing many, many issues of Creepy and Eerie. This is especially odd since indexing them would be as simple as copying the relevant data from The Warren Companion.

One cannot do that without the author's permission, that is copyright infringement. Besides, we want people to index the comic in front of them, not index someone else's index. It is a good way for errors to creep in.

FYI
my best
-Ray Bottorff Jr

[Sir Tim Drake]

Welcome to CBR, Ray. Nice to have you aboard. :)

But is it really copyright infringement if you're only reproducing factual data? I remember reading that chess games are uncopyrightable, because the moves of a chess game are factual events that have occurred, and the record of a chess game is just a factual report of those events. I wonder if the same is true of the contents of a comic book-- although certainly you would know better than I.

[TheHistorian]

By the way, we need the originals indexed when you are indexing the original issues, you should not index off a reprint--regardless of how much it is the same. There are always differences between the two an indexer might miss. So, can I help anyone on this?

I understand the concept, but is there any flexibility? I have a full EC library and the Tales Of Terror companion (which indexes the entire line) but no originals from the 1950s. From that I could clearly fill in the whole thing in short order. Or you could wait for someone with a run of Vault Of Horror (example mentioned before) to come along.

[T GUy]

significant runs of ... Dandy, Commando, and the thousands of comic-strip reprint books out there.
Anyone interested in indexing their issues?

I could index the odd issue of Commando (well, quite a few, I suppose... but not enough to make a dent in 3, 800 issues) and the odd DC and S&K romance book.

So, can I help anyone on this?

Yes. Fix it so that someone other than the 'reserved' indexer can put information on.

This is something of a pet peeve of mine, so I hope you'll understand and forgive any rudeness. But, frankly, I'ld be astonished if anyone has complete sets of any of the following: Commando, War Picture Library, Cowboy Adventure Library, Girls' Love Stories, Secret Heart, Secret Romance, Young Love, Young Romance Comics. Well, not that astonished in most cases. But you seem to want that limited number of people to have the resource to index the whole series.

By the way, we need the originals indexed when you are indexing the original issues, you should not index off a reprint--regardless of how much it is the same. There are always differences between the two an indexer might miss.

we want people to index the comic in front of them, not index someone else's index. It is a good way for errors to creep in.

Absolutely, completely, definitely right.

T Guy

[Cei-U!]

I understand where Ray's coming from. In the years(!?) I've been working on my seemingly-never-to-be-finished-but-will-be-some-day-I-swear Collectors' Guide to Earth-2, I've had lots of offers from well-intentioned people to index the books I'm missing for me but I always politely decline. I'm happy to use scans or even b/w photocopies but the only way I can be certain I don't miss something, is if I read it myself, often several times. It's not that I'm the only one capable of writing a decent index entry. It's that any errors that creep in should be my fault, not someone else's.

And, yes, GCD does respond to e-mailed corrections or additions. Ray himself answered when I sent in the writing credit for the B'wana Beast issues of Showcase. (I knew Bob Haney wrote it as soon as I saw the phrase "big buster." Short of having a character named Cathcart, nothing screams "Haney" more.) I'm still waiting to hear back on a couple but I have faith I will.

Cei-U!
I summon Djuba!

[Lone Ranger]

FYI to all those who may not understand what is going on with missing titles.
The only reason those books do not appear is because no one has indexed them yet.
We are strictly a volunteer organization and as a result there are a number of key books that have far too few issues indexed yet, the previously mentioned E.C. books, but also significant runs of Archie, Sad Sack, Casper, Richie Rich, 2000AD, Beano, Dandy, Commando, and the thousands of comic-strip reprint books out there.
Anyone interested in indexing their issues?
By the way, we need the originals indexed when you are indexing the original issues, you should not index off a reprint--regardless of how much it is the same. There are always differences between the two an indexer might miss.
So, can I help anyone on this?

my best
-Ray Bottorff Jr
Board Chairman Grand Comic-Book Database

P.S. No email to the Error list goes unanswered. I, myself, have a backlog of over 300 email errors to go through this summer. Once the work is done, all is replied to. I extend my offer to anyone here to become an indexer so they can be a part of adding and fixing indexes.

P.P.S. If you see a book that is reserved that you'd like to index, contact us and we'll make sure that 1) it isn't already done, and 2) if the indexer who reserved it is interested in letting you have it. BUT you will need to become an active indexer.

Ray,

Thanks for the input.

We all understand that it is a volunteer organization, and know that the GCD is a valuable asset is to all comic book fans.

I think that much of the the confusion/frustration comes from the number of titles/issues that have been 'reserved' and have not see any activitiy for a long, long while.

Granted, if somone is sitting at home indexing, no one should start duplicating that effort - but if someone has reserved much more than he or she can handle, it doesn't make sense to leave it 'reserved' for more than 6 months or so. Others may be champing at the bit to index that title.

[Mike Kuypers]

I've been picking up a number of Gladstone's EC Annuals lately. Wanting to look at a couple of things from the original source material, I hopped over to the Grand Comics Database. I then found that "Vault of Horror" is almost completely unindexed. This is classic EC, yet there are no covers, story descriptions, etc.

I don't know if I have a point. Just seemed pretty darn odd.

Sometimes when you can't find something on the GCD it may be due to indexer error. For instance, you're not going to find TALES OF THE MYSTERIOUS TRAVELER unless you know to add an extra L:

http://www.comics.org/covers.lasso?SeriesID=1187

[Slam_Bradley]

Sometimes when you can't find something on the GCD it may be due to indexer error. For instance, you're not going to find TALES OF THE MYSTERIOUS TRAVELER unless you know to add an extra L:

http://www.comics.org/covers.lasso?SeriesID=1187


Ooooo...that reminds me of another thing that would be nice on the GCD. A "fuzzy" search for those of us that may forget how to spell a certain creator's name.

[T GUy]

Slam Bradley: Ooooo...that reminds me of another thing that would be nice on the GCD. A "fuzzy" search for those of us that may forget how to spell a certain creator's name. Sienkiewicz.

[Red Oak Kid]

I think what most of the people on this thread are asking is, why can't individual issues of a title be indexed? For example if I have only one issue of Creepy, but it is an issue that is not indexed on the GCD, why can't I submit my info on that one issue?

If such a thing were possible, I think the holes in certain titles would be filled up quickly.

But the problem is, who verifies the info that is sent in? There needs to be some kind of double and triple checking on this info to prevent more errors than there already are. I don't know how this could be done.

I'm not even sure I like the idea of people being able to upload cover scans without some kind of verification. I see too many reprint covers being uploaded as originals. Also, one time while searching covers for the GTCC game I noticed that someone had inserted a picture of Michael Jackson in the bar code box on a cover scan.(sorry, I can't remember what title it was)

The GCD is really amazing and lately I have gotten quick responses to the emails I have sent them regarding errors.

[TheHistorian]

I think you're on the right track. If it were decentralized, and run more like a wiki, we'd all be wmpowered to make the corrections as we found them.

But it has been around for a long time, and it isn't necessarily fair for us to ask the process to change as outsiders.

I really don't know the answer.

[CArchivist]

Welcome to CBR, Ray. Nice to have you aboard. :)

But is it really copyright infringement if you're only reproducing factual data? I remember reading that chess games are uncopyrightable, because the moves of a chess game are factual events that have occurred, and the record of a chess game is just a factual report of those events. I wonder if the same is true of the contents of a comic book-- although certainly you would know better than I.

Data is not copyrightable, but the format and method of collection can be. Besides, it is bad karma to use other people's work without their OK. It is a good way to ask for trouble when you don't need to.

Most people usually have no problem with letting us use their work if we give them all due credit.

my best
-Ray

[CArchivist]

I understand the concept, but is there any flexibility? I have a full EC library and the Tales Of Terror companion (which indexes the entire line) but no originals from the 1950s. From that I could clearly fill in the whole thing in short order. Or you could wait for someone with a run of Vault Of Horror (example mentioned before) to come along.

In an ideal world, yes that would be prefered to use the originals. Sometimes it isn't possible but people have used microfilm or microfiche of the originals instead.

Technically, what you would be indexing is not the original comics, but the EC Library itself, which is perfectly fine too.

Somthing to consider.

my best
-Ray

[CArchivist]

I could index the odd issue of Commando (well, quite a few, I suppose... but not enough to make a dent in 3, 800 issues) and the odd DC and S&K romance book.



Yes. Fix it so that someone other than the 'reserved' indexer can put information on.

This is something of a pet peeve of mine, so I hope you'll understand and forgive any rudeness. But, frankly, I'ld be astonished if anyone has complete sets of any of the following: Commando, War Picture Library, Cowboy Adventure Library, Girls' Love Stories, Secret Heart, Secret Romance, Young Love, Young Romance Comics. Well, not that astonished in most cases. But you seem to want that limited number of people to have the resource to index the whole series.


One can reserve entire runs, or individual issues. I looked up the examples to see if anyone foolish enough reserved the entire run and here is what I found:
Commando (only about 15 of the 3000+ issues have been reserved, rest are available)
War Picture Library (not yet in the database, so all is ready to index)
Cowboy Adventure Library (not yet in the database, so all is ready to index)
Girls' Love Stories (has already been mostly indexed, abourt 23 issues left for someone to reserve)
Secret Heart (almost completely indexed, only 22 issues left which were reserved)
Secret Romance (if this is the Charlton series, none of the issues have yet to be indexed and none reserved. All available to be indexed)
Young Love(The DC issues have the first part of the run already indexed but most of the early issues are reserved. the Prize run, only a handful of issues are reserved, the rest are available to be indexed)
Young Romance (the Crestwood run, had about 30 issues indexed, the rest available to be indexed. The DC run, 25 issues have been indexed, the remainder have been reserved).

The purpose of this list is to spell out a couple of points I want to make.

1) If a title has been reserved for an extended period of time, and you want to index the issue, feel free to ask the GCD and we will contact the indexer to see if they wish to give up any issues in question.

2) If the database is giving you trouble in reserving issues listed as unreserved, let us know, we will fix as necessary if need be.

Finally about the idea that we want to limited our indexers. The last time I checked, we had about 70-80 indexers that have indexed at least one comic over the ten years of the GCD. There is no limitation to one's participation in the group except probably competency.

I would welcome you aboard at anytime as an indexer, feel free to contact me.

my best
-Ray

[CArchivist]

Sometimes when you can't find something on the GCD it may be due to indexer error. For instance, you're not going to find TALES OF THE MYSTERIOUS TRAVELER unless you know to add an extra L:

http://www.comics.org/covers.lasso?SeriesID=1187

You can search stuff by portions of the title. So if you look up "Tales" or "Mysterious" you will find it.

If you see ANY errors, email the GCD error list at:

GCDEditor@lists.comics.org

And they will be queued up to be fixed.

my best
-Ray

[CArchivist]

I think what most of the people on this thread are asking is, why can't individual issues of a title be indexed? For example if I have only one issue of Creepy, but it is an issue that is not indexed on the GCD, why can't I submit my info on that one issue?...

...But the problem is, who verifies the info that is sent in? There needs to be some kind of double and triple checking on this info to prevent more errors than there already are. I don't know how this could be done.

I'm not even sure I like the idea of people being able to upload cover scans without some kind of verification. I see too many reprint covers being uploaded as originals. Also, one time while searching covers for the GTCC game I noticed that someone had inserted a picture of Michael Jackson in the bar code box on a cover scan.(sorry, I can't remember what title it was)

First question, yes, you can reserve single issues.

The group of GCD editors verify as much as they can, but no system catches everything. And we do rely on the goodwill on comic fans not to mess around with database too. So far no creeps have shown up to ruin it for others.

If the cover thing wasn't free and open, there is no way we'd be up to 83,000 scanned covers. We just fix the very few (in comparison) errors as we find them.

And that picture, send the error list a correction for that!

my best
-Ray

[CArchivist]

By the way, while not perfect, the GCD does aim to at least try to make it the best as possible. Since many of you do seem to enjoy using the GCD on occassion, how about thinking about us when voting for the Usenet Squiddy Awards... here is their press release:

"Squiddy Award Time!
Press release follows.
Monday, April 04, 2005

2004 SQUIDDY AWARDS VOTING BEGINS

The voting period for 2004's Rec.Arts.Comics Awards (popularly
known as "The Squiddies") is underway.

The Squiddies are the rec.arts.comics newsgroups' annual comics
industry awards. Except for the CBG awards, no still-existing
industry award is older. Known originally as "the Great Usenet
Comics Poll," the Squiddies have been continuously awarded every
year since the mid-1980's.

All readers of any of the rec.arts.comics.* newsgroups are
invited to vote. Whether fan or professional, lurker or poster,
occasional or regular reader, we want to hear from you. Last
year, vote totals in many categories were extremely close. Every
vote makes a difference--including yours.

Copies of the ballot have been posted to the following
newsgroups:

rec.arts.comics.dc.lsh
rec.arts.comics.dc.universe
rec.arts.comics.dc.vertigo
rec.arts.comics.elfquest
rec.arts.comics.marvel.universe
rec.arts.comics.marvel.xbooks
rec.arts.comics.misc
rec.arts.comics.strips

You can also get a copy via Google Groups.
http://tinyurl.com/5v94u

If you would like to publicize the voting, feel free to
distribute copies of this announcement.

This year's voting period will run from Friday, 1 April 2005
through Sunday, 24 April 2005. Run-offs will take place after the
voting, if required. Winners will be announced later in May.

The 2004 Squiddies are being administered by Johanna Draper
Carlson and Carl Henderson. If you have any questions, or have
problems finding an official copy of the ballot, please email
questions2004@squiddies.org

For more information, check out the Squiddy FAQ.
http://www.squiddies.org/"

my best
-Ray

[T GUy]

CArchivist: One can reserve entire runs, or individual issues.My apologies. Next time I must try to get my facts straight. I looked up the examples to see if anyone foolish enough reserved the entire run and here is what I found:
Commando (only about 15 of the 3000+ issues have been reserved, rest are available)
Girls' Love Stories (has already been mostly indexed, abourt 23 issues left for someone to reserve)
Secret Heart (almost completely indexed, only 22 issues left which were reserved)
Young Love(The DC issues have the first part of the run already indexed but most of the early issues are reserved. the Prize run, only a handful of issues are reserved, the rest are available to be indexed)
Young Romance (the Crestwood run, had about 30 issues indexed, the rest available to be indexed. The DC run, 25 issues have been indexed, the remainder have been reserved).I must arrange to find out if any issues I have of any of these titles are not on the GCD and reserve 'em. I've just checked out Secret Hearts 123 and 135 - I had 'em to hand as they only arrived the other month - and they're both on. I probably exaggerated the extent of the problem on DC romance (and, to a lesser extent, Prize/Crestwood).
Secret Romance (if this is the Charlton series, none of the issues have yet to be indexed and none reserved. All available to be indexed)Put me down to index No.s 44 and 48. I've just scanned the covers of VF copies into my computer ready to go. And, yes, this is the Charlton series. Incidentally, it says 'All New' on the cover - machine lettering on 1979/80 Charltons? And art that looks mid-fifties to mid-sixties to me (both these reprint-alert atributes are only on some of the stories, I should mention). War Picture Library (not yet in the database, so all is ready to index)
Cowboy Adventure Library (not yet in the database, so all is ready to index)Sadly, I don't have the first issue of either of these comics, so don't know officially when they began (come to think of it - I have the same problem with the last issue. Only more so). I think this precludes them going on. Or does it? And if so, is there a way round it?

Finally about the idea that we want to limited our indexers.I think my view/assumption was that you were doing this whether or not you wanted. The last time I checked, we had about 70-80 indexers that have indexed at least one comic over the ten years of the GCD. There is no limitation to one's participation in the group except probably competency.Excellent!
I would welcome you aboard at anytime as an indexer, feel free to contact me.Excellent!*

What have I let myself in for?*

*Delete as applicable.

As I said above, I'm ready for a bit of secret romance. I shall PM you if anything else crops up (probably the odd issue of Commando).

T Guy

[Mike Kuypers]

You can search stuff by portions of the title. So if you look up "Tales" or "Mysterious" you will find it.

Yes, I'm sure this is how I located the title the first time. I was thinking someone who had a particular issue of TOTMT and wanted to look it up might assume it wasn't indexed when there was no match.

[Slam_Bradley]

Ray,

Thanks for the input and the info. I wasn't being disrespectful of the work that's gone in to the GCD when I posted the topic. I use the GCD a lot. It just struck me as odd that some significant runs of very important books weren't indexed. Hopefully with the discourse here the folks at CBR can help fill in some of the holes. I appreciate your input.

[rarndt]

Ray is right. It's rude to 'borrow' someone else's work without asking or, at the very least, noting their contribution. As he is aware, I've done complete credits for all of the Warren (more correct than those in The Warren Companion--done using the actual issues with corrections from actual artists & writers) and the Skywald B&W plus the Marvel horror B&W's, Web Of Horror, the Seaboard books, about 25 1970's era fanzines and more at my site at www.enjolrasworld.com {then look for Richard's page}. If you're interested you can find out a lot of material there, including commentaries on each issue and many interviews with editors, writers & artists who worked on those books.

Ray asked and I allowed him to use the info on the Skywald material with the approriate credit for my work and when that project is completed, we'll probably discuss the Warren & Marvel books, neither of which are fully credited on GCBD. None of the fanzines I've covered appear there.

Doing annotations takes time, a fair amount of money and some amount of detecting skill {how does one identify an artist or writer when the credits aren't there?, etc.} and the folks at GCBD do a good job for such a huge ongoing effort.

Best

Richard Arndt

[CArchivist]

Sometimes when you can't find something on the GCD it may be due to indexer error. For instance, you're not going to find TALES OF THE MYSTERIOUS TRAVELER unless you know to add an extra L:

http://www.comics.org/covers.lasso?SeriesID=1187

FYI
I fixed this.

my best
-Ray

[CArchivist]

Put me down to index No.s 44 and 48. I've just scanned the covers of VF copies into my computer ready to go. And, yes, this is the Charlton series. Incidentally, it says 'All New' on the cover - machine lettering on 1979/80 Charltons? And art that looks mid-fifties to mid-sixties to me (both these reprint-alert atributes are only on some of the stories, I should mention)....Sadly, I don't have the first issue of either of these comics, so don't know officially when they began (come to think of it - I have the same problem with the last issue. Only more so). I think this precludes them going on. Or does it? And if so, is there a way round it?

T Guy, email me direct at CArchivist@aol.com and I'll start the process to get you started on the indexing learning curve!

As far as the missing issues not yet indexed, one can enter skeleton indexes for future indexing and can later enter the info when known. I do own a number of British comic book indexes done by CJ Publications that I can refer to find out last issue numbers and the like.

my best
-Ray

[CArchivist]

Ray asked and I allowed him to use the info on the Skywald material with the approriate credit for my work and when that project is completed, we'll probably discuss the Warren & Marvel books, neither of which are fully credited on GCBD. None of the fanzines I've covered appear there.

Doing annotations takes time, a fair amount of money and some amount of detecting skill {how does one identify an artist or writer when the credits aren't there?, etc.} and the folks at GCBD do a good job for such a huge ongoing effort.

I am glad you reminded me Rich, I have to talk to the person entering the Skywald index to see how his progress is going. He was about 75% of the way through it and his computer died just after Xmas. He only recently returned, so I am going to get with him soon for an update on the rest.

Art and writer credits require some serious detective skills. I have a rather anal-rententive personality and even art identification gives me fits. Those who can spot a Superman inker based on the shape of the "S" on his chest have my complete admiration. And figuring out writers is even more beyond me, but people like Martin O'Hearn, who can I.D. a writer based on his/her tendacies in what style of sound-effects used just blows me away.

my best
-Ray

[CArchivist]

You can search stuff by portions of the title. So if you look up "Tales" or "Mysterious" you will find it.

If you see ANY errors, email the GCD error list at:

GCDEditor@lists.comics.org

And they will be queued up to be fixed.

my best
-Ray

It might be helpful if I give you the RIGHT email address. Sending email to the closed editor list will result in an effort of frustration. Mea Culpa!
Here it is:

gcd-errors@lists.comics.org

my best
-Ray

[Mike Kuypers]

FYI
I fixed this.

my best
-Ray

Nice job, Ray. If I come across any similar problems I'll use that corrected email address.