SPLIT: Superman turning a blind eye? *spoilers*

[Kevinroc]

But I just named quite a few books that are pretty much grit-free(and there are others), that you can enjoy just fine. You can pretend Infinite Crisis isnt even happening, the same way I pretend AD didnt happen. :) And why would we need to forgive them? For what? For exploring different paths with these sacred characters? Even if you hate what they are doing, if writers never try anthing different than how are the characters supposed to evolve?

Why stop buying comics simply because of one storyline? You can say "The DCU is getting darker", and thats true overall, but many of its books still are not dark books by any stretch, and most of them are quality books.

I avoid the X-Books over at Marvel like the plague for the most part(AXM is excellent), yet that doesnt stop me from enjoying other Marvel titles. :)

I'm not talking about hating the creators. I've met several of these folks and they were all pretty cool. Geoff and Gail are especially nice.

It's not that I have any objection to exploring the darker side of the super hero. I love Bendis' Daredevil. But there's a difference between Bendis' Daredevil and the current DCU direction. Daredevil's nervous breakdown feels a lot more natural than suddenly saying the JLA are a group of brainwashers and Superman turns a blind eye to these actions.

Meanwhile, we keep getting Batman as "THE MOST PARANOID CHARACTER IN THE HISTORY OF FICTION".

J'onn practically throws Blue Beetle out of the Watchtower as soon as Beetle has "recovered" from his injuries. These guys aren't acting like heroes. They are acting like self-centered ****s.

[Brian R]

I'm not talking about hating the creators. I've met several of these folks and they were all pretty cool. Geoff and Gail are especially nice.

It's not that I have any objection to exploring the darker side of the super hero. I love Bendis' Daredevil. But there's a difference between Bendis' Daredevil and the current DCU direction. Daredevil's nervous breakdown feels a lot more natural than suddenly saying the JLA are a group of brainwashers and Superman turns a blind eye to these actions.

Meanwhile, we keep getting Batman as "THE MOST PARANOID CHARACTER IN THE HISTORY OF FICTION".

J'onn practically throws Blue Beetle out of the Watchtower as soon as Beetle has "recovered" from his injuries. These guys aren't acting like heroes. They are acting like self-centered ****s.

I agree about the Batman thing, but thats been problematic for YEARS. Not that it makes it any better, just that Bat-Dick has become the standard. As for Supes turning a blind eye, to me that was textbook Supes. He hates what they did, but he understands on some level and he doesnt want to stir shit up between the League, because he knows how vital they are as a unit and he doesnt want to risk them imploding(see: AD).

[Kevinroc]

I agree about the Batman thing, but thats been problematic for YEARS. Not that it makes it any better, just that Bat-Dick has become the standard. As for Supes turning a blind eye, to me that was textbook Supes. He hates what they did, but he understands on some level and he doesnt want to stir shit up between the League, because he knows how vital they are as a unit and he doesnt want to risk them imploding(see: AD).

This is where your vision of Superman differs from mine. Superman turns a blind eye for the sole purpose of fearing the JLA would implode?

What it basically boils down to is does Superman turns a blind eye to injustice when his friends do it?

To me, I'd say no. He doesn't. A good example of this is during Mark Waid's JLA run. When Ra's steals Batman's files and defeats the JLA, it is Superman that casts the tie-breaking vote to remove Batman.

With the fear of the League imploding, Superman asks Batman to make things right. He didn't turn a blind eye. He wanted Batman to cop to what he did and show he has changed. He didn't turn a blind eye.

What Superman should have done is similar to what he did with Batman. Not just sit back and do nothing. Because then they will keep doing it.

And basically the kind of JLA story we are going to get now is the JLA imploding because of these things that they did in ID Crisis.

[Brian R]

This is where your vision of Superman differs from mine. Superman turns a blind eye for the sole purpose of fearing the JLA would implode?

What it basically boils down to is does Superman turns a blind eye to injustice when his friends do it?

To me, I'd say no. He doesn't. A good example of this is during Mark Waid's JLA run. When Ra's steals Batman's files and defeats the JLA, it is Superman that casts the tie-breaking vote to remove Batman.

With the fear of the League imploding, Superman asks Batman to make things right. He didn't turn a blind eye. He wanted Batman to cop to what he did and show he has changed. He didn't turn a blind eye.

What Superman should have done is similar to what he did with Batman. Not just sit back and do nothing. Because then they will keep doing it.

And basically the kind of JLA story we are going to get now is the JLA imploding because of these things that they did in ID Crisis.


Its not that I think Supes would turn a blind eye to injustice, but I dont see what the JLA did as being that. Except for Batman(thats the one that bugs me), the rest of the people mindwiped were SCUM, people who in real life would have been murdered, so I guess I dont see the big problem there. But, has it been established that Supes knows about Batman getting wiped? Im not sure he does, he might, I just dont know.

I dont think Supes is the type of person to let bad deeds go unpunished, I agree with you on that, I guess you are right in that it is a departure from the classic Superman, that he would not say anything about them mindwiping villains. Its just that "I" dont have a problem with them doing that, but Superman should, you are right.

[Kevinroc]

Its not that I think Supes would turn a blind eye to injustice, but I dont see what the JLA did as being that. Except for Batman(thats the one that bugs me), the rest of the people mindwiped were SCUM, people who in real life would have been murdered, so I guess I dont see the big problem there. But, has it been established that Supes knows about Batman getting wiped? Im not sure he does, he might, I just dont know.

I dont think Supes is the type of person to let bad deeds go unpunished, I agree with you on that, I guess you are right in that it is a departure from the classic Superman, that he would not say anything about them mindwiping villains. Its just that "I" dont have a problem with them doing that, but Superman should, you are right.

Superman is just supposed to let them off the hook because these guys were villains?

Superman even suggested doing something like what the JLA did to Dr. Light to his new enemy Ruin.

So it's not just that Superman is turning a blind eye, he wanted to do it too. And it's possible he knows about what happened to Batman as well (although that has yet to be outright stated).

You even admit that Superman is behaving out of character. So it's not that you don't recognize this.

[Brian R]

Superman is just supposed to let them off the hook because these guys were villains?

Superman even suggested doing something like what the JLA did to Dr. Light to his new enemy Ruin.

So it's not just that Superman is turning a blind eye, he wanted to do it too. And it's possible he knows about what happened to Batman as well (although that has yet to be outright stated).

You even admit that Superman is behaving out of character. So it's not that you don't recognize this.

Yeah, I was agreeing with you, to an extent. I dont know anything about what is going on with Ruin, but if Superman actually suggested mindwiping him, thats very much not Clark, in my opinion, so that would be bad. I dont think Supes thinks what the League did is good by any stretch, Im just saying he probably had his reasons for letting it go on. After all, he has to consider Lois' safety, as well as the other families.

And to me, whether he knows about Batman or not is the linchpin, because if he did, and didnt tell him... well then, how is Bats ever supposed to trust him again? Superman is one of the only other heroes that has some measure of trust from Bruce, in part because of how honorable he is, so if he knew all these years and didnt tell him, that would fragment their relationship completely.

[Captain Jim]

This thread does not have a "spoiler" label. So, if you intend to reference specific events from Countdown, please use spoiler labels-- [ spoil] [ /spoil]. Thanks!

[Kevinroc]

Yeah, I was agreeing with you, to an extent. I dont know anything about what is going on with Ruin, but if Superman actually suggested mindwiping him, thats very much not Clark, in my opinion, so that would be bad. I dont think Supes thinks what the League did is good by any stretch, Im just saying he probably had his reasons for letting it go on. After all, he has to consider Lois' safety, as well as the other families.

And to me, whether he knows about Batman or not is the linchpin, because if he did, and didnt tell him... well then, how is Bats ever supposed to trust him again? Superman is one of the only other heroes that has some measure of trust from Bruce, in part because of how honorable he is, so if he knew all these years and didnt tell him, that would fragment their relationship completely.

He did fear for Lois' safety. But I still don't think that's an excuse for Superman to completely break his moral code and even suggest doing to Ruin what the JLA did to Dr. Light.

That's not Superman. That's why I dropped Adventures.

This thread does not have a "spoiler" label. So, if you intend to reference specific events from Countdown, please use spoiler labels-- [ spoil] [ /spoil]. Thanks!

Actually, the events I am referencing are from Adventures of Superman #636. Which came out several months ago.

But the spoiler warning idea isn't a problem.

[Brian R]

Could you fill me in on what he said exactly? I mean, did he say "Something needs to be done about Ruin" or "I think it would be spiffy if we windwiped him, call Zee".

[Kevinroc]

Could you fill me in on what he said exactly? I mean, did he say "Something needs to be done about Ruin" or "I think it would be spiffy if we windwiped him, call Zee".

Superman takes Wonder Woman and Batman to the Fortress of Solitude. He said of Ruin "It's like Dr. Light all over again."

Superman then talks about not knowing how to stop Ruin. He talks about how he knew what the JLA did but chose to do nothing for fear that it would rip the JLA in half (Superman should not be a waffler).

"What was I supposed to do, Diana? Was I supposed to take in half of the League? It was wrong, but there wasn't another option."

Wonder Woman says they should have killed him (Light and in this case, Ruin).

[Brian R]

Superman takes Wonder Woman and Batman to the Fortress of Solitude. He said of Ruin "It's like Dr. Light all over again."

Superman then talks about not knowing how to stop Ruin. He talks about how he knew what the JLA did but chose to do nothing for fear that it would rip the JLA in half (Superman should not be a waffler).

"What was I supposed to do, Diana? Was I supposed to take in half of the League? It was wrong, but there wasn't another option."

Wonder Woman says they should have killed him (Light and in this case, Ruin).

Well, in all fairness, he doesnt seem to be advocating a wipe for Ruin right there, although I can see why you might infer that.

And yeah, I guess Superman should not be a waffler.

[Kevinroc]

Well, in all fairness, he doesnt seem to be advocating a wipe for Ruin right there, although I can see why you might infer that.

And yeah, I guess Superman should not be a waffler.

Maybe my memory was playing tricks on me a little but that was how I recalled it. I actually had to pull the issue out (this was one of the last issues of Adventures I picked up before I dropped it) and yeah.

Although he sure comes off as a waffler when it comes to justice and that just isn't Superman. Never was.

[Brian R]

Apparently, we have created an off-shoot of your first thread. Should we be proud? Ashamed? Who knows?

[Kevinroc]

Apparently, we have created an off-shoot of your first thread. Should we be proud? Ashamed? Who knows?

It's still kind of the same thing, really. I don't really think it should have been an off-shoot. It was still a part of the whole "not liking the general direction of the DCU" thread.

And DC now claims that "The Trinity of Superman, Wonder Woman and Batman is split" or some such. And this is supposed to be a major point to upcoming DC stories.

[Paul Newell]

It was thread drift at its finest, boys! :)

And deserved its own thread on a board where it would get more discussion.

[Captain Jim]

Actually, the events I am referencing are from Adventures of Superman #636. Which came out several months ago.

But the spoiler warning idea isn't a problem.

I wasn't referring to anyone in particular, but IIRC there were some comments earlier on that seemed to be speaking pretty openly about the events of Countdown.

[Yoda]

Well, in all fairness, he doesnt seem to be advocating a wipe for Ruin right there, although I can see why you might infer that.

And yeah, I guess Superman should not be a waffler.

I havent read that issue in a while, and don't have it with me to read again but from what i remember I don't really see how you can infer that he was advocating the mindwipeing of Ruin.

His comment "It's like Dr. Light all over again." is in referance to the fact that Light went after the JLA's loved ones, and threatend to do it again, the same thing Ruin just threatened to do. If you can infer anything by what Supermans trying to do in this issue it's looking for some other way to deal with Ruin besides the mindwipe. He knows the mindwipe was wrong and doesnt see it as an option, and he also refuses to kill so Diana's option isnt available to him either. He went to Wonder Woman and Batman for help.

I don't believe Superman knows anything about Batmans mindwipe. It's inconcievable to me that he would allow that to go, and really it makes no sense that he would tell Batman about the Dr. Light incident if he knew Batman was mindwiped.

As for letting the JLA off the hook. I guess one way you can look at it is to say this was a long time ago in the DCU timeline and it was a younger Superman. With the post crisis reboot had he even been in the league at that point?

I think eventually Wonder Woman is going to kill Ruin in front of Superman and that will drive the real wedge inbetween her and Superman & Batman. Batman obviously knows he was mindwiped at this point and now believes Superman allowed it to happen so theres that wedge.

If they have Superman kill Ruin i will be very upset, one because Superman should never kill at least not a "human" villian like Ruin and never for personal reasons. There are instances where I can accept him killing for the greater good, he "kills" Imperix & Brainac a couple of times, and he killed Doomsday. Those were where he had no other option. But to kill ruin to protect lois, or ma or pa - its pretty much set in stone that he would never do that.

[Brian R]

One thing I wanted to add. Even if its not in Superman's character to let things slide, does the fact that he did it once in his career really diminish the character? Its not like hes gonna start letting people off the hook left and right, and even if you think its poor characterization, why let one incident drive you away from a character you like?

Other writers will come along, and write Superman the way you like him, whether its next year or in five years, and it seems silly to abandon the DCU because you dont agree with certain things. You can just avoid the titles that you dislike, dont throw out the baby with the bathwater. :D

[PatrickG]

My ideal Superman would dismantle the League himself if he knew.

[Daniel Lewis]

My ideal Superman would dismantle the League himself if he knew.

Amen.

Besides, you can just make a new League in a year or so.

[HartyPotter]

I was just really surprised at how Martian Manhunter acted. Given, I haven't read that much with him in it, but he seemed particularly rude as well.

[bannermanonemillion]

My ideal Superman would dismantle the League himself if he knew.

The REAL REAL REAL Superman does what's right, not convenient or easy or pragmatic but what's right and what's right here is making the League face up to what they've done, period. And if it destroys the League, fine, they can always restart the recruitment drive. Start over with Wonder Woman Batman and himself.

[Xzio]

Wow, there are a lot of diverse opinions about what has transpired since Identity Crisis! I am glad the story has raised some issues because it shows that we all care for the characters and how they are portrayed. For those that have followed the JLA during the satellite era, could you let me know if Superman's involvement with the Justice League has been retconned because I thought he was not a member back during that time and just assisted on occasion. The other thing that this story points out quite clearly is that the Superman that we know and loved who never waivered from moral decisions in any situation is no longer around. He disappeared with the Crisis. The new Superman or Post-Crisis Superman has been portrayed as an alien raised to be human and since this portrayal he has had his shares of successes and failures. He tries to do the right thing and sometimes fails in this regard. He does not seem to have the instincts that guided his predecessor. Superman is supposed to be the best that we as humans can be and even the best of us make mistakes and are far from perfect. Perhaps as the story is revealed we may see that their was a reason why he chose to be passive and let the League do what they did.

[PatrickG]

Yeah... There have been several retcons.

As it stands now, he was an honorary member of the original JLA and he joined as a full-fledged member in the team's second year (shortly before Snapper Carr betrayed the team) and remained an active member through the end of the Satellite era. Batman was also an active member around the same time.

The details are to be found in JLA: YEAR ONE, JLA: INCARNATIONS and THE SILVER AGE, all of which are in continuity.

[sikkbones]

i like conner's superman in titans tommorow... a superman who totures and kills... ya...