Marvel Knights Spider-Man #12 ~ Discussion and Spoilers

[Doom Hammer]

Interesting issue, if nothing else. Despite its seemingly bland setup, it was a decent issue, with a spectacular conclusion.

The issue starts off with the showdown at the bridge. Now, before you call this unoriginal, please note that Norman says he picked out an all new bridge, just for MJ. It's kinda funny, it was like Millar himself was saying, "See? I'm not that obvious!"

Anyway, time for the big showdown, right? In order to save his family, Norman tells Peter to kill himself (like in issue #1). Not quite so agreeable with said plan, Peter questions Norman's intentions when Doctor Octavius busts in. Drugged to hell, he intends to follow his mission and "kill Osborn by midnight tonight". However, as he is drugged so heavily, he's not fighting so effectively. But Otto distracts Norman long enough to make him drop MJ (onto the bridge, not off) and Peter takes the oppurtunity to attack.

They rumble, blah blah, MJ busts out her piece and caps Norman, etc etc, the kick of the gun in her untrained hands propels her off the bridge. Peter goes through his neccesary angsty Gwen remembrance, and webs MJ with about 5 strands to give her enough support sp her neck remains un-snapped. Yay!

Norman goes to impale Pete on his glider (with his hands, not while he's riding it, but rather trying to shove the glider into Peter) when Ock attacks yet again. Norman's swingin' his glider like a wild-man, Ock's tentacles are all up and about, and they're on a raised platform. Now, do they:

A.) Get STRUCK BY LIGHTNING
B.) Fall off the bridge after having electricity ravage their bodies
C.) Stop fighting and have tea

If you guessed A and B - which I hope you did - you're correct my good sir!

In the meantime, Peter figures out where May's at. Now before you say "Deus Ex Machina", listen to how things come together...

1.) There was new turf on Ben's grave.
2.) Rachel Grey had a vision of a tombstone. Maybe she wasn't dead, but rather trapped...?
3.) That sicko pervert Norman used all kinds of psychotic puns regarding May being in the ground.

And there you have it! May's been buried in a coffin in Uncle Ben's grave, anaesthetized into a coma essentially, with her body all but shut down. Peter uses CPR and revives her in the nick of time. Yay for Peter!

The conclusion, however, made Millar's whole run woth it IMO.

1.) Ock was fished out of the river, having lost his memory of the last two months.
2.) Osborn is missing, presumed dead (yeah right).
3.) Peter found Felicia recovering soundly in the hospital, and realized that she was still "smitten as a kitten" with him.
4.) Mac decided he would tell no one of Peter's secret, because he didn't want to "share the only stick [he'd] ever have to beat [Peter] with."
5.) Because of JJJ's beliefs about Spider-Man, the hero now has the support of the Bugle.
6.) Now here's the real good part. I know one of the reasons I didn't like the series so much was because of super-angsty Spider-Man. I know he has the burden of responsibility, but I still think that overall he should be a lighthearted character. Now, his Aunt May verbalizes this. She reassures him of Spider-Man's importance, and leaves a sign that Peter's angst was never meant to be a permanent fixture in the series. She says, "Now come along home and stop being silly. Mary Jane said you throw a hissy-fit about this job every couple of years, but you eventually see sense again." That line totally did it for me. Mark Millar never wanted to take a depressing, suicidal look at Spiderman as a whole. Instead, he wanted to show Peter having a spectacularly rough time. His take on Spidey as a whole is not dark and gritty, but he wanted to show that Spidey was more than capable of having such times. He justifies the darkness of his run. It seemed to me that with that one line, Mark Millar was explaining the purpose his whole run, and dispelled a lot of my doubts regarding his story. With that one line, Peter began to come out of his depressive funk and back to where he should be. It was like Millar was saying, "Okay, I did that. Now somebody needs to come on this book and do something totally different." I dunno, it just made me take a second look at the run.
7.) Norman's assistant sends one of many possible Hannibal-to-Clarice like letters to Peter, and adds a slightly different dimension to their relationship.

Anyway, with all the open doors and possible scenarios that Millar left, I think I'm sure to have fun reading Spider-Man down the road.

[Hero For Hire]

I enjoyed it. We'll see how things go with the new team. The only thing about Millar that bothers me is his dialogue. It sounds stupid but the way he words what characters say sort of annoys me and sounds the same in several of his books, and a little out of character for some of the characters. It's hard to explain... one example that immediately comes to mind is how everyone says incidentally... in Ultimate X-men, Ultimates, Wolverine, and here. It's kind of as if characters just developed a different kind of vocabulary. It was OK in the ultimate universe because he pretty much pioneered it. But now he's writing Marvel U... haha nobody probably even understands what the hell i'm talking about

[olympichero62]

I must admit that I didn't really enjoy this series at first. But that letter at the end really got me. Norman Osborn is really sick. It's like he thinks that what he does is helping Peter, helping him to become a better superhero. It's almost like he wants Peter to beat him.

Really great ending I must say.

Also, I am not looking forward to the Art on MK #13-24.... :mad:

[chicainery]

It was enjoyable, but not great. I'm glad I got every issue of Millar/Dodson's run, don't get me wrong. I just could have done without so much change for the sake of change. A good story on it's own merits would have been good enough.

[Jake V]

I dug the book, and had basically the same reaction as the rest of you.

But I offer this one piece of trivia. This issue is the first ever meeting of the Green Goblin and Doctor Octopus. Swear to god, it has never been done before in the 40 years of history Spidey has. They've never shared a scene together. Until now.

Pretty weird, huh?

[Brian R]

I dug the book, and had basically the same reaction as the rest of you.

But I offer this one piece of trivia. This issue is the first ever meeting of the Green Goblin and Doctor Octopus. Swear to god, it has never been done before in the 40 years of history Spidey has. They've never shared a scene together. Until now.

Pretty weird, huh?

LIAR! That has to be a lie... right? How in heck did they go forty YEARS without meeting ONCE!??

[Brian R]

The issue starts off with the showdown at the bridge. Now, before you call this unoriginal, please note that Norman says he picked out an all new bridge, just for MJ. It's kinda funny, it was like Millar himself was saying, "See? I'm not that obvious!"

As a reformed Millar fan, I have to say that, to me, that scene says "See, my writing is hit or miss, I can give you gold and then I can give you dreck". The bridge thing is BEYOND played out, its not even funny in a ridiculous sort of way.

I will grant that I havent read anything past issue three, and the quality may have improved since then, but an improvement over crap is not that interesting to me.

[Jake V]

Millar swears by it. He claims to have had a bunch of editors look into it. It helps that Norman Osborn was dead for a while, but he's never met Doctor Octopus at all in the comics.

[Santanico]

Pity that such a momentous occasion was so thoroughly pissed away here, then. Gobby's doing that tired old Mwahaha-look-how-damn-evil-I-am routine that gets trotted out every time a writer really has no idea how to write for his character, and Ock is a brainwashed zombie who probably doesn't even know where he is. And it all takes place on yet another sodding bridge. Suffice it to say, they both deserved better.

On the upside, I did like the letter at the end. It's just a shame Norman wasn't played that way throughout the rest of this story arc.

[The Joker]

I dug the book, and had basically the same reaction as the rest of you.

But I offer this one piece of trivia. This issue is the first ever meeting of the Green Goblin and Doctor Octopus. Swear to god, it has never been done before in the 40 years of history Spidey has. They've never shared a scene together. Until now.

Pretty weird, huh?

WOW!

Thats some weird, wild stuff there. At first I thought you had to be kidding, but with Norman supposedly being dead for so long, it makes sense. Oh well, atleast it FINALLY happened!

About time. :D

[Chachi]

I didnt care for this whole arc once it was reveled that Norman was once again behind it. Come up with something new people. I may give one or two issues of the new team a chance but its not looking promising.

[jade_nova]

Not a bad issue. I loved how Spider-Man told the Green Goblin that he is a fifty-five year old man that shouldn't be doing this. I felt that was sort of a reference to how fans feel about the Green Goblin nowadays. The ending with the letter was a nice touch, a sort of nice explaination of why the Green Goblin does what he does. I didn't like the reference to the Pulse issue that took place before the first issue of this series. When I heard that there was an issue of the Pulse that would show the fight between Spider-Man and the Green Goblin that ended in issue one, I was psyched, then I find out the fight is between the Green Goblin and Luke Cage. :eek: :mad:

[Dennis K]

It was a great way to wind up the arc, even if it strained the bonds of suspended disbelief. Here's hoping the next team can keep up the high standards established over the first dozen issues.

[We R. Venom]

I loved the ending. Total twister and gave everything retro. Everything that is excpet for venom and scorpion which I hated. He can go to hell for that one. The art on 13-24, is pretty much garbage, but we shall see.

[cosmicspidey]

I loved how Spider-Man told the Green Goblin that he is a fifty-five year old man that shouldn't be doing this. I felt that was sort of a reference to how fans feel about the Green Goblin nowadays.

That actually irritated the hell out of me. GG is constantly murdering people, and Peter tells him to act his age? WTF?! The fact that he's 55 doesn't make his exploits any more or less ridiculous. He's a psycho! What does it matter how old he is?

But the rest of the issue I really liked. I was really not expecting much after last issue's big letdown of ending at the bridge. Hopefully, Norman will be gone for a while. I liked that Gargan has been set up for someone else to use down the line. And I loved Spidey finding Aunt May, and the final scene on the bridge, even though the bridge scene was a little cliched.

Oh, one more thing I hated: Peter "saying" he killed Gwen becuase the impact snapped her neck. That seemed really out of character to me. I think there should always be (and always has been) the question in the back of Peter's mind about whether the shock or the snap killed Gwen. He's never known for sure if he killed her or GG did. For Spidey to so readily accept direct blame for her death seemd out of character to me.

So I guess Millar's run goes down for me as a good one. Not great, but good. Of course, the rampant disregard for continuity really pissed the hell out of me.

[Santanico]

That actually irritated the hell out of me. GG is constantly murdering people, and Peter tells him to act his age? WTF?! The fact that he's 55 doesn't make his exploits any more or less ridiculous. He's a psycho! What does it matter how old he is?

God, yes. That bit of dialogue actually made me burst out laughing, it was just so ludicrous. Apparently, running around dressed as a freaking goblin is just fine when you're in your forties, but once you hit the big five-oh, you'd better give it a rest - might make you look undignified.

(Odd, though, to think of Norm as actually being halfway to sixty. I'm used to thinking of him as being at least five years younger than the fortysomethingish Doc Ock.)

[Master Darque]

I agree with all the original poster of this thread had to say .... and I gotta say , Norm's letter to Pete at the end was just chillingly twisted . Made me think " DAMN Pete .... maybe you need to go all Dark Knight Returns on his ass ....."

[onizuka]

overall i thought it was a good run for Miller. my only beef is the same beef i got with the whole Spidey universe right now and thats that there is not enough continuity between em.

but ultimately i won't let that ruin a good story arc. loved Scorps decent into madness. loved the final confrontation with Gobby, i really feel the way Miller worked the dialogue it didn't feel like it was the overdone bridge scene i thought it was gonna be.

the art was great too.

it was a great book, i wonder where Hudlin is gonna take it from here.

[Grant]

God, yes. That bit of dialogue actually made me burst out laughing, it was just so ludicrous. Apparently, running around dressed as a freaking goblin is just fine when you're in your forties, but once you hit the big five-oh, you'd better give it a rest - might make you look undignified.

Hey when my dad hit his forties he bought a jeep. So it's not that weird Osborn decided on the glider instead...

...okay it is. Still I always thought Green Goblin was Stan Lee's bizarre way of depicting the midlife crisis.

[sleeepy2]

As a reformed Millar fan, I have to say that, to me, that scene says "See, my writing is hit or miss, I can give you gold and then I can give you dreck". The bridge thing is BEYOND played out, its not even funny in a ridiculous sort of way.



It didn't bother me when I read it, but a moratorium on flinging-people-from-bridge scenes may be a good thing.

Loved the series, looking forward to 13-24.

[CodeMonkey]

I felt this entire arc was a waste.

It had some potential, but didn't really go a heck of a lot.

Big set ups, and big let downs.

Aunt May was buried in a grave and kept unconscious and protected from the ENTIRE MARVEL UNIVERSE by a hack mentalist in the big city for a grand? I don't think so.

Osborn gets a big group of villains together to whoop on Spider-Man. Instead, a bunch of heroes fight them and Spider-Man has a few pages tops of face time with them.

Scorpion becomes Venom, but doesn't appear to act or do anything different. You get the chance to have someone else take the role of Venom and instead of going in a new direction we get the same old junk.

Scorpion decides to "keep his secret" because he can use it later. Yeah. Sure. I sort of bought it with the Riddler since he's a freaking loon with a psychosis that may make him keep it a secret (referring to the Hush story in Batman), but a two-bit thug like Scorpion..er...Venom now I guess? Not for one millisecond.

Spider-Man running around angsty for the 500,000th because the ones he loves were kidnapped, bridge scenes, money problems, etc. All rehashed stuff.

So while not a terrible run, I certainly don't think it was anything special, and certainly not worth the hype.

[Crimson]

It was an alright issue... I was kind of hoping for Doc Ock to knock GG off the bridge and Peter to save him after I saw last issue someone was going off the bridge.

Thank god Osborn is out of the light for a while. I just hope he's not used for a couple of years. He's an awesome villian but way overused. I doubt it'll happen as the ending has left another "Master Plan" in wait... hopefully I'm the only one who spoted it.

[Alan2099]

Didn't care for it.

Norman has become a horribly parody of himself. He doesn't even have a personality anymore other than "I'm evil. This is for your own good, Spider-man. Oh yeah. I'm evil. Let me go drop somebody off a bridge."

Doc Ock was wasted here. The Sinister twelve was written off rather than being a huge threat. Scorpion is now Venom and actually seems to be a weaker character. Oh yeah, he's totally insane now as well and they're selling his old costume.

A hack mentalist was able to hide Aunt May from People that have proven themselves to be high end on the power scale.

The @%$& BRIDGE AGAIN! Even the writter accnowledges that this has been played out and over done.

The dialo just didn't work for me. Characters didn't sound like who they were supposed to be.

It just basically stank. The story could have been told in 4 issues.

[Crimson]

You know what I was thinking... where the hell is Uncle Ben's body now?

[onizuka]

You know what I was thinking... where the hell is Uncle Ben'd body now?

HAHA, yeah, where is that thing man?

[onizuka]

oh, and i will be picking up this new arc. haven't read Black Panther, but it's a Spidey book so i gotta get it. i hope it doesn't suck.

[Gorakmev]

oh, and i will be picking up this new arc. haven't read Black Panther, but it's a Spidey book so i gotta get it. i hope it doesn't suck.

Pather's art was very good indeed and the story wasn't bad either. :) It's a spidey book? I didn't know that.

[Gorakmev]

HAHA, yeah, where is that thing man?

I think Gobby dug down enough to put May in but did not remove Ben, however, you never know. If there was a second coffin in the ground, who's to say that Gobby left Ben in it? Spidey didn't open it (duh), so what if they made a story about Gobby or one of his minions trying to reanimate Ben and giving Pete all sorts of grief over it? Far out, but I never would have exspecked May to be in the ground either.

[Crimson]

Pather's art was very good indeed and the story wasn't bad either. :) It's a spidey book? I didn't know that.

Which didn't you know was a Spider-Man book?

He's talking about the team taking over Marvel Knights: Spider-Man :confused:

[Gorakmev]

Which didn't you know was a Spider-Man book?

He's talking about the team taking over Marvel Knights: Spider-Man :confused:

Ummm... I'm not sure. I'm confused. :confused:

[Will.S]

I enjoyed it. We'll see how things go with the new team. The only thing about Millar that bothers me is his dialogue. It sounds stupid but the way he words what characters say sort of annoys me and sounds the same in several of his books, and a little out of character for some of the characters. It's hard to explain... one example that immediately comes to mind is how everyone says incidentally... in Ultimate X-men, Ultimates, Wolverine, and here. It's kind of as if characters just developed a different kind of vocabulary. It was OK in the ultimate universe because he pretty much pioneered it. But now he's writing Marvel U... haha nobody probably even understands what the hell i'm talking about
I know what you mean. This title has it's fair share of Millar'isms like..."for_____ sake!" and "You idiot/moron!".

He uses alot of these in Wolverine as well but I suppose that's how he usually writes stuff. It comes off to me as kind of lame and overly dramatic but overall I can forgive a bit of that since he has some good story ideas.

Back to the issue it was a decent ending to "The Last Stand" arc and a pretty well tied up ending to his run. I wished that Millar had used another location other than the George Washington bridge. Like many have stated, including myself, the way it played out was just really cliche despite the Goblin's joking reference to it. It was neat to see Spidey web onto Mary Jane in various points so that she would be extra secure and preventing him from self doubt in case something did go wrong though.

Another cool thing was the Doctor Octopus and Green Goblin confrontation. I didn't even notice that they never met up before this so it makes this issue feel extra special so thanks for that heads up on that Jake V. The way Millar ended the confrontation between Doc Ock and Green Goblin by using a bolt of lightning was lame. It was as if Millar ran out of space and had to move the story along using that moment of extreme coincidence. For some reason I'd like to think that it was Electro that separated them but that doesn't make much sense either.

There's another bolt of lightning that comes out of nowhere, mostly for effect so it wasn't such a big deal, but it was right before May's revival. I don't quite know if these bolts of lightning had any meaning attatched to them but they were odd effects that stuck out like a sore thumb. BTW regarding Goblin's referencing his fight with Luke Cage, where does MK Spiderman take place? After the Pulse's "Thin Air" I take it?

Anyway, the end of the issue after the confrontation, is where I thought the issue had its best moments like Peter finding Aunt May, Peter visiting Felicia in the hospital, Gargan tossed in jail but left for future use, the Scorpion costume up for grabs, the nice talk between Aunt May and Peter (which again seemed to me similar to Aunt May's talk to Peter in Spiderman 2 about having to stay a hero so that people would be inspired by them and that it was a good thing to do) and finally that insanely calm and creepy letter by Norman.

The Terry and Rachel Dodson art duo art looked great as usual. They were solid throughout their entire run and the Frank Cho's issues looked and worked well enough with the Dodson art that this book remains consistently good looking even in trade form.

Millar's overall run I'd give a 7/10. He made Venom, Scorpion and Electro really cool villains again and had some nice (even while somewhat pointless) guest stars. He fell into alot of cliches at the end, especially with Norman being behind everything again but he was portrayed as a bastard enough for me to not be completely disappointed with it. The concept of most of the villains being put against Spidey because they were bankrolled by Norman was another interesting idea which makes some sense but it feels exactly like the what Riddler did in Hush using Matt Gargan in his place and with a less significant role.

As a "Shush" type story it works in some places for Spiderman and doesn't in others. While "Hush" was pretty good, I didn't feel that it was a definitive Batman story to start modeling other stories after, especially after the not-so-good loose end on the identity of Hush which now seems like a mess that the Batman books are still trying to sort out.

[Crimson]

What was the joke about the fake name the doctor checked Black Cat in under?

Its going straight over my head but I feel I should be getting it...

[Alan2099]

She was the actress that played Catwoman.

[Doom Hammer]

Pather's art was very good indeed and the story wasn't bad either. :) It's a spidey book? I didn't know that.

Black Panther isn't a Spiderman book, but the writer for it, Reginald Hudlin, is also going to be writing Marvel Knights: Spiderman. That's why Black Panther was referred to.

[Crimson]

Has anyone read this whole run in one go? The story does seem to work alot better... I didn't even notice that the guy Aunt May said was helping with his finances was the same guy who was working for Owl as a body guard.

[Astonishing X-Fan]

The lightning taking out Goblin and Doc Ock was about the lamest, stupidest way the fight could have ended. I was so into this story and that one moment really ruined it for me.