Man batman sure look like an idiot now(spoilers crisis stuff)

[IamtheRock3]

Considering War games

Towel of babel

batman had his share of F ups


But now apparenly he created OMAC, ingore Blue bettle warnings, and imparenlt his contincery planning bit him in the ass again. Something that may threaten EVERY hero in the DCU

Damm security sucks in comcis

[jetter_cheeze]

Considering War games

Towel of babel

batman had his share of F ups


But now apparenly he created OMAC, ingore Blue bettle warnings, and imparenlt his contincery planning bit him in the ass again. Something that may threaten EVERY hero in the DCU

Damm security sucks in comcis


It shows that Batman should not have the loner attitude that has been driving him since Jason Todd's death. See what happens when you don't play well with others?

[Taskmaster]

Ok since this thread already has spoilers in it,Iwanted to ask a question, am I the only one that thought the dark haired Checkmate agent was Sasha, or am i just seeing things

[Lord Darkwolf]

No ...it's her *sigh*

[bannermanonemillion]

It shows that Batman should not have the loner attitude that has been driving him since Jason Todd's death. See what happens when you don't play well with others?

He did play with others once......and they mindwiped him because he disagreed with them.

He wasn't always a loner, but when he welcomed new teammates, they tended to either die or get crippled.

And not planning for the worst? In the JLA? Can you spell "suicide"?

[palaeomerus]

Maybe a lot of Max and Superman's weird behavior here is them being "pushed" by Max?

[Mia]

Considering War games

Towel of babel

batman had his share of F ups


But now apparenly he created OMAC, ingore Blue bettle warnings, and imparenlt his contincery planning bit him in the ass again. Something that may threaten EVERY hero in the DCU

Damm security sucks in comcis

Well you can't win them all. Batman has more successes than failures. You can't account for every contingency. Sometimes you will get your fanny kicked.

As for Batman being a loner, I think that it has more to do with the fact that he likes to be self-reliant because he can control and trust himself. He can't do that with others. And while I think he likes working with the JLA, I have often seen an air of superiority in his dealings with them. He seems to work with them more so for what he can get out of them, than for any general want or desire to work with them.

Barbara wasn't Batgirl when she was shot. She was at home minding her own business. As for Jason and Stephanie. Well it wasn't a wise descision to take them on in the first place. Jason is a loose cannon and Stephanie was a hopeless idiot. Still don't get why he needs a Robin.

[Ilash]

One thing about countdown though was that it did explain why Bats has been such a paranoid, standoffish bastard for so long... He knows... everything.

[IamtheRock3]

He did play with others once......and they mindwiped him because he disagreed with them.

He wasn't always a loner, but when he welcomed new teammates, they tended to either die or get crippled.

And not planning for the worst? In the JLA? Can you spell "suicide"?

yea but lately his plans not only seem to blow up in his face but blow up HUGE!!!!! Hurting others

And he has no yellow fear demon to explain it.

[sikkbones]

why wasn't tim drake more destrught over steph's death?

and don't they have a kid out there somewhere....

give it 20 years and someone will bring spoiler back... or spoilers kid will show up...

[Forsaken_One]

why wasn't tim drake more destrught over steph's death?

and don't they have a kid out there somewhere....

give it 20 years and someone will bring spoiler back... or spoilers kid will show up...
Yes, he should have been more distressed. And angry at Batman.

No, Steph has a kid. Tim was not involved with that child in biological terms.

In twenty years Spoiler's kid will be 5-6 years old. Unless there's hyperaging somewhere out ther it won't be the kid as the main plot point, probably just the kidnapping of the kid.

[sikkbones]

Yes, he should have been more distressed. And angry at Batman.

No, Steph has a kid. Tim was not involved with that child in biological terms.

In twenty years Spoiler's kid will be 5-6 years old. Unless there's hyperaging somewhere out ther it won't be the kid as the main plot point, probably just the kidnapping of the kid.
how old is jason todd these days?

[Forsaken_One]

how old is jason todd these days?
He was sixteen when he died in 1989, so he'd be around 19-20 by now, the Hush age makes sense. The general formula is 4:1 or 5:1 our time:comic time. I've found DC tends to be 4:1 but it varys slightly.

[MJC]

Yes, Batman is a dick.

I've got a feeling this OMAC thing will end up getting him permanently kicked out of the JLA (which probably should've happened a while ago).

[IamtheRock3]

Well I know batman been around for least a decade in comic time.

So yea Jason would be up there

[Guts/Batman]

Well I agree with Batman's logic.

To me it seems NO ONE plans for the worst case scenario, in the comic world or the real world. I don't get why the other JLA member were so pissed at him. And it is suicide being a "normal" human (Flash is human but can go faster than anyone else, and kyle is a human with THE most powerful weapon...period) and not having a plan to defeat the JLA members.

Though it could be argues Batman is not "normal".

[Mainline]

Well I agree with Batman's logic.

His logic is fine, his approach is ENTIRELY wrong.

He keeps creating contingencies that pose and equal or greater threat than a rogue hero. An arms race is NOT the solution, after all, the best you can hope for is mutually assured destruction in such a case. Offense is inherently easier and has the advantage, however, it's not the way to live justly and raises the threat risk to all.

It's similar to the idea of national registry and ID cards... instead of focusing on the enemy you harass your allies. Instead of Batman focusing on working WITH his allies, his focus is on stopping them (perhaps neglecting his enemies in the process).

Both in terms of attitude and pragmatism, an optimistic team-work approach is far more effective than in-fighting. Consider if intelligence agencies (both nationally and internationally) co-ordinated and worked together effectively, versus finger pointing and butting heads and calculating strategies to throw each other off.

[sikkbones]

how many times has one of supermans allies or assumed allies went rogue?
hal jordan? cyborg superman? etc.

[Guts/Batman]

true. *tries to imagine a world without the typical human ego*

*laughs*

[Mainline]

how many times has one of supermans allies or assumed allies went rogue?
hal jordan? cyborg superman? etc.

How many times has it been because they were cut off and without close ties in their time of need? Despite the media, predominately, we live in a society that trusts each other... you wouldn't be able to function if you thought everyone was out to get you and rightly so.

If people there there for Hal- and I don't me just in a namby pamby granola-crunching feel-good "I'm here for you" spiel, but willing to confront and resolve and help and heal depite costs and even if the person spits in your face- then it's arguable he wouldn't have gone nuts (retcons aside).

Heroes are supposed to model the ideal human traits (which is a seperate issue from whether comic book leads should), so who else should be putting aside their egos to work together than the JLA?

Bottom line. A hero/ally does not go rogue randomly 99% of the time. In the case of a truly random event, in all honesty there's nothing you could have really done in the first place... your contingency plans are more a realistic threat than that chance of a random turn to evil. The rest of the time a hero goes rogue it's for preventable reasons. Those same steps that keeps us all from blowing out our brains or going on angry killing sprees whatever the circumstances.

[IamtheRock3]

Well we trust each other in the real world because you or me not going to go evil when we around red rock. Where not going to get mind controled or Clone then try to take over the world

In DC that actully real concerns. Nice to have a back up plan for that. Batman promblem is he keep letting them get out.

Also writer tendecy to stress his buttholeneess every time he does something wrong when really if you look at other charcter they do similar stuff..it just not focused on

One day the may not be able to stop the RED K supes, one day When a starro controled Martmanhunter chucks a tank at a building..it might actully result in killing someone. Batman doesnt know he lives in a comic world..where chucking tanks at building doesnt actully kill innocent people.

He more like "Holy crap did MM just go nuts and almost launch a full scale nukler war"

He worked on the villans..yea but it nice just in case plans for when he friends go nuts. The only promblem we as the reader KNOW the plans will be find out no matter WHAT he does.

[sikkbones]

hey didn't martian manhunter go rogue once and take out the whole jla?

[IamtheRock3]

yea like some months ago

in comic time that could be last week

[Mainline]

Well we trust each other in the real world because you or me not going to go evil when we around red rock. Where not going to get mind controled or Clone then try to take over the world

In DC that actully real concerns. Nice to have a back up plan for that. Batman promblem is he keep letting them get out.

So are clocktower snipers, school shooters, subway chemical attacks, suicide bombers, etc. in the real world. It's not a question of possibility- many almost unthinkable evils are possible- it's a balance against its likelihood. Out of their long histories together heroes go rogue extremely rarely and almost always in a preventable manner. When your plans both theoretically and historically cause more harm than good, maybe it's a good time to rethink your approach/strategy.

Even if his plans work, all he's done is expose a vulnerability to the public. For that matter, which of his plans HAVE worked? I mean, Synthetic Red K makes Superman STRONGER. OMAC is clearly setup to backfire, etc etc.

It Batman had the RIGHT approach, Blue Beetle would still be alive and all that Kryptonite would be in JLA custody.

[IamtheRock3]

actully not that rare. Remeber befor the Tower of babel, Hal went nuts, JLA got possed my starro. They dealing with villans who are telphater, can take over your body, copy your powers, shape shifter, alternate reality evil clones.

Yes some of these preventable but one must take the proper steps to prevent them. Yea OMAC prablly going to blow up in his face..but batman isnt aware that its a magical writer making sure he end up the F up. His plans help take superman down before, Help with the Obsidain age..where they were betrayed. Ther he plan for the worst case scenarion them dieing, help with MM

thing is we plan for snipers, chemical spills, we have drilss. Your talking about beings with the ability to BLOW UP THE EARTH. Also people who have proven untrustworthy in the pass by going clock work orange on people

Also Omac unit was around without him..think he just made the satalite. He wasnt the only one who ignored beetle. Now granted these recent event where is IQ seem to drop about 90 point and everything..EVERYTHING he does seem to magical go to garbage is bad. Aint arguing that.

But the idea of contigency plans is really a smart idea.

[Mainline]

Yes, quite rare. You're talking 50+ years of comic book history, thousands upon thousands of issues/stories... and a tiny handful, comparatively, of times they went rogue. And in almost every case, resolved WITHOUT any contingency plans.

A drill is reactive and not offensive. Batman's plans are- for whatever reason- always offensive. The damage to trust and teamwork alone nullify any possible benefit of his plans.

It's like a parent keeping a gun by their nightstand for the specific purpose of killing their child should they turn into a school shooter. It's nuts.

[IamtheRock3]

50 years of comics. 30 wichs is crisis and neve happem and pre crisis stuff like that happen to supes a lot. See supermanisadick threads

Also note comic time it like 10 years

[IamtheRock3]

Yes, quite rare. You're talking 50+ years of comic book history, thousands upon thousands of issues/stories... and a tiny handful, comparatively, of times they went rogue. And in almost every case, resolved WITHOUT any contingency plans.

A drill is reactive and not offensive. Batman's plans are- for whatever reason- always offensive. The damage to trust and teamwork alone nullify any possible benefit of his plans.

It's like a parent keeping a gun by their nightstand for the specific purpose of killing their child should they turn into a school shooter. It's nuts.

Let look at the child thing

Let say EVERY 300 days your child has a tendecy goes nuts..and try to kill someone. Let say said Child have the ability to punch a hole through the planet killing a millions of people

sure doesnt happen every day but say 1 time out of 300 days

not benifit of the doubt sometime the heroes simply getting taking over

[IamtheRock3]

also note Superman gave him the ring for just an occasion.

[Mainline]

also note Superman gave him the ring for just an occasion.

Err, no not at all. That's a gross misrepresentation. Superman's not so foolish as to believe a puny ring is going to let Batman take him down. After all, it hasn't in the past (in Hush, Batman breaks his hand on Superman's face even with the ring, shortly after Superman busts through the sewers to street level and lifts a car with one hand to drop on Bats... similarly, he wields the ring in an attempt to hurt Preus). Giving the ring to Bats is simply a trust thing NOT a psycho paranoid approach like Batman.

Edit: If it WERE about pragmatic paranoia, then he would have given the ring to Diana, who can and does kill and can stand on more equal footing with Supes.

See, right there, you see the difference in approaches and the more productive of the two. Superman knows the ring is futile was a weapon against him, but he fosters trust with Batman. He's safe against Batman ever knowingly or willingly harming him. He's made enough in roads with him that they co-operate more than any other dissimilar pair. The RIGHT approach.

[Mainline]

Let look at the child thing

Ma and Pa Kent. 'nuff said.

I can see why you think Batman's not screwed up... to you, the parent oughta be ready to kill their kid rather than, say, parent their child.

[Guts/Batman]

A drill is reactive and not offensive. Batman's plans are- for whatever reason- always offensive.


From what i've noticed Batman prefers being proactive, even agrressive or offensive as opposed to reactive.

[Alan2099]

Personally I love how Batman focuses on trying to take down his freinds instead of the people who he knows are already super powered psychopaths.

I've got an idea, bats. How about instead of trying to find the chemical compound that will turn martian manhunter's skin it fire, you go try to figure out how to kill Lobo or Etrigan?

[Guts/Batman]

i saw lobo in marvel vs. dc trade... how many times does he show up in Batman related titles?

[IamtheRock3]

he gave it to him because he know batman one of the smartest man alive and trust him to be the one to figure out how to take him down

Batman does plans for his rouge..they just keep coming back because thier popular and plans for villans

like in obsbian Age, and DC classified

[CjP]

A drill is reactive and not offensive. Batman's plans are- for whatever reason- always offensive. The damage to trust and teamwork alone nullify any possible benefit of his plans.


for whatever reason? how about this reason:

Let's say you're Batman coming up with one of your famous 'good guy gone rogue' continigency plans. You are, for all your smarts and gadgets, a normal human faced with someone with superhuman powers and abilities coming at you with full steam. Assuming the worst, you figure this person has the power and ability to do whatever it takes to put you in the obituaries. Do you:

* Try to rationalize with them, and make them understand/ realize/ remember that they are the good guys? Past history of that tactic says there's pretty good odds you'll get squished in the middle of a monologue.

* Flee, get some space/ breathing room, try to come up with a plan? The second you run away, you may as well hang up the cape...

* Hit them harder, faster, and stronger than they would ever suspect, and do it *before* they get a chance to hit you? Hm... keeps you alive, neutralizes the threat, and buys time to figure out whats going on.... we have a winner!

[sikkbones]

he gave it to him because he know batman one of the smartest man alive and trust him to be the one to figure out how to take him down

Batman does plans for his rouge..they just keep coming back because thier popular and plans for villans

like in obsbian Age, and DC classified

how is batman the smartest man alive?
i can name at least 2 people smarter....

batman might be the most prepared superhero ever.. but he has been outsmarted by both enemies and allies many times...

[bannermanonemillion]

I have a question.

If Black Panther was going through this crap (ie, having his plans abused by villains or blown by writer fiat) would we be having a "Black Panther is a D@#$!!" argument?

[IamtheRock3]

simple marvel doesnt feel the need to spend issues focusing on black Panther dickness


unlike DC who feels the need to to batman. When really a lot of heroes done similar stuff, had there plans go awry (Vanishing, Hank Pym little robot friend, superman cyborgs) but they rarely get as much garbage for it.

What mess up. Batman had a change to call JLA hypocrtis for the mindwipe thing but then OMAC going to make him look like a prick.

[sikkbones]

avenger's assembled was the result of not having a backup plan...

i think some of this summers happenings is going to be the result of batmans plans going awry..

[bannermanonemillion]

simple marvel doesnt feel the need to spend issues focusing on black Panther dickness


unlike DC who feels the need to to batman. When really a lot of heroes done similar stuff, had there plans go awry (Vanishing, Hank Pym little robot friend, superman cyborgs) but they rarely get as much garbage for it.

What mess up. Batman had a change to call JLA hypocrtis for the mindwipe thing but then OMAC going to make him look like a prick.

I should hunt down my "Does God Hate Batman?" thread and maybe resurrect it.

[Alan2099]

avenger's assembled was the result of not having a backup plan...
And Tower of Babel was the result of Having one. What's your point?

[Charagon]

The JLA survived the Tower of Babel for one thing.

[Guts/Batman]

The JLA survived the Tower of Babel for one thing.

Almost to have it ripped apart for good in Divided We Fall.

[Mainline]

he gave it to him because he know batman one of the smartest man alive and trust him to be the one to figure out how to take him down

And the ring is not part of that at all. There are plenty of DCU characters more power than Bats, more willing to kill, more apt at it, and frankly much smarter. And in all honesty, if it came down to a rogue Superman NEEDING to be killed, Bats couldn't do it... this is one area where his iron will is inflexible and an incredible weakness for any of his insane plans.

Again, it's all about Supes showing he trusts Batman. Doctor Fate or Wonder Woman with magic weaponry or Flash with Kryptonite all stand better and more pragmatic chances at stopping a rogue Superman without killing him or themselves (meanwhile, Bats with a ring still risks getting BBQed, squished, frozen, or otherwise killed) so as a gesture Superman gives him the ring. But there's no realistic effectiveness to it.

And besides, for all your theories of how Bats would plan to take Supes out, in reality the best he could come up with was Synthetic K which made Superman stronger and didn't even hinder his ability to use his powers with surgical precision. Not a screaming success that one....

for whatever reason? how about this reason:

All terrible reasons for one simple one. Batman is human. Any plan he comes up will can and will be duplicated and excuted by any other villain, government, etc. afterwards. Bats truly is turning another day at the job into a MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) situation.

Bottom line, Bats needs to take a step back and realize that sometimes he ought to trust in his allies or let the super-powered beings handle things (what HAVEN'T they survived or come through?) rather than being a paranoid psycho that makes things worse.

[Forsaken_One]

My god, you people are arguing like this was real life, like the avengers not surviving Disassembled and the JLA surviving Tower of Bable has some sort of significant meaning regarding contingency plans, rather than being arbitrary decisions by writers and editors.

Carry on.

[Guts/Batman]

Hahahahaha....you're right.

[Ronald Bryan]

My god, you people are arguing like this was real life, like the avengers not surviving Disassembled and the JLA surviving Tower of Bable has some sort of significant meaning regarding contingency plans, rather than being arbitrary decisions by writers and editors.

Carry on.
You keep your "real life" logic out of this, you hear?

[IamtheRock3]

well there are bringing up pass event to explain people actions more.