COUNTDOWN TO INFINITE CRISIS: Spoilers

[west3man]

Yeah well, that was my attitude with IC after the first issue and it got worse and worse and worse...

Seriously though, as many have said, my main issue with the book is just that all the other heroes are really such... self-abosrbed dicks. I mean, if they had so much to do, why did they ALL show up? Surely Hal's ring could have performed a far more throrough scan than anyone elses abilities?
I realized something while reading that. As much as I enjoy Green Lantern and most things related to them/it, when Hal showed up, I was shocked and disappointed. No $#!+. I was really kinda... salty.

I am REALLY hoping that Rebirth turns out well - that I really connect with and enjoy it because seeing Hal and noting my gut-reaction to his presence showed me that bringing him back in a "bad" way will sour his "resurrection" for me. Any time I see him, I'll be bothered and, consequently, distracted.

It's not a *Hal* thing, btw. When he visited from the past, I had NO problems with his presence. In fact, I enjoyed it so much, I was REALLY disappointed when that storyline concluded.

[Ned Leeds]

People are REALLY taking the "everyone was a dick to Beetle" a little too far. Almost EVERY hero that blew Beetle off had a good reason to. Batman was freaking out about the mindwipes. Manhunter had a PLANETARY WAR to deal with. Oracle couldn't be reached. Superman, Hal, and WW ALL treated Ted with respect, but they, too, obviously had important work to do. It SEEMS very cold at first glance, but we have to remember that these heroes were NOT just sitting around having tea and crumpets when Beetle came to them. They were ALL occupied with what they believed were more urgent superhero business.

I know when I'M stressed out...when I have a very big problem on my hands, and I'm in the middle of dealing with it, I get edgy too. Almost everyone does. And when someone else starts bugging me with their apparently lesser problem, I get a little frustrated with them...and I tend to brush them off. That's what happened in Countdown..only on a much larger scale.

I'm not trying to say that in hindsight, they were RIGHT to do it...I'm just saying that they weren't NEARLY the horrible, uncaring monsters some people are making them out to be.


I got the same impression after reading Countdown last night. There were more important things afoot than Ted's missing money and attacks on his life. He is a superhero and they do get attacked. Now afterwards, if the JLA shows no remorse for ignoring BB's claims, then I will start complaining. But I see his death as a wake up call for all the DC heroes.

[titanfan]

I agree. I found myself really caring about Beetle and Booster this issue. What surprised me is that if the JLA regards its B and C listers in this way, they should be dying left and right. They are easy targets without the JLA protecting them.

It seems like since the Morrison era, the JLA have always been a bunch of elitist snobs. And the B and C Listers are pretty much dying left and right. Off the top of my head: (Crimson Fox, Amazing Man, Blue Devil, Maxima, Guy Gardner, Captain Atom -- multiple times, Sue, Firestorm, Triumph, Blue Beetle...) Several of them have come back though.

[titanfan]

I can understand how the death of Blue Beetle might have overshadowed this, but I simply can't believe that no-one has mentioned the murder of SKEETS!

It's a little different with Skeets. He's been rebuilt so many times. As someone has said, when we last saw him, he was supposed to be integrated into Booster's latest costume. (Which I think was destroyed) When Dan Jurgens wants to use him, he'll be back.

When L-Ron is inevitably killed, I probably won't cry over that either.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Has bets L-Ron will bite the dust at some point as well. God knows that making Maxwell Lord Into an emtionless villain the very month he's playing a bumbling good guy In JLA: Classified takes a pure act of genuis.


Its no wonder Giffan Isn't too pleased with DC. :( :mad:

[stealthwise]

Has bets L-Ron will bite the dust at some point as well. God knows that making Maxwell Lord Into an emtionless villain the very month he's playing a bumbling good guy In JLA: Classified takes a pure act of genuis.

The two have nothing to do with one another. Consider the Classified story to be either an "Elseworlds" or "Hypertime" story.

[Satana Hellstrom]

Who's Skeets?

[SUPERECWFAN1]

The two have nothing to do with one another. Consider the Classified story to be either an "Elseworlds" or "Hypertime" story.


Actually It did happen. It was said that this happened months before Identity Crisis. I have no Idea If this happened before or after Green Lantern: Reborn though. But DC has said that the Giffen stories have happened.

[Tom]

Who's Skeets?
Exactly.







Joke!

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Who's Skeets?


He's the distant cousin of 2 Can Sam. The bird on the cereal box.

[Satana Hellstrom]

Exactly.







Joke!
I seriously don't know who that is.

[titanfan]

Has bets L-Ron will bite the dust at some point as well. God knows that making Maxwell Lord Into an emtionless villain the very month he's playing a bumbling good guy In JLA: Classified takes a pure act of genuis.


Now that I think about it. They don't have to necessarily have to kill L-Ron. At this point, I'd say it's 50/50. 50% chance that he's as good as dead. 50% chance that he's just as evil as Max is. (The shocking revelation being that L-Ron is really O-Mac)

[GremlinClr]

Yeah, nice one.

I was saying the exact same thing about Identity Crisis and look how that turned out. If you liked it, that's fine, but for me, it was a letdown and I've learned my lesson.

And when you buy a novel, you're usually not plunking down anywhere near as much as these mini-series and crossover issues are looking to cost.

Ummm, yea. IC IS the first chapter of this "novel". Since all this stuff is spinning out of it. And for the record I liked IC just fine up until the last crap issue (and Rags art, blech).

And in no way am I telling you to buy any of the mini's coming up, I'm just saying your being reactionary. I.E. the whole first chapter comment.

[Tom]

I seriously don't know who that is.
He was Booster Gold's little flying robot buddy.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Now that I think about it. They don't have to necessarily have to kill L-Ron. At this point, I'd say it's 50/50. 50% chance that he's as good as dead. 50% chance that he's just as evil as Max is. (The shocking revelation being that L-Ron is really O-Mac)


You know seeing L-Ron play a bad robot would be funny. The Interaction between L-Ron and Max In JLA : Classified Is pure fun. I could see them argueing about being bad guys now.

L-RON: You know you shot Ted don't you ?

Max: He wouldn't follow me. He was just gonna stop my plans.

L-RON: Ya know Booster will be pissed.

Max: Yes. But we can take Booster. He's a nobody.

L-RON: I'm not thinking of Booster. I see a very mean angry pissed Batman stompin us .

Max: Hey , we can beat Batman !

L-RON: Maybe we can go ahead and give ourselves up. Superman wouldn't be as mean as Batman.

Max: You don't quite get this " bad Guy " deal were on do you.

L-RON : Yeah , you wear black and shoot everyone. But I'm still a good guy.

Max: You blew up Ted's home and nearly killed him ! How can that be a good guy ?

L-RON : You forced me to.Thats what I'll tell Batman as he's stompin our asses .

[blast_front]

Hmm, if I were Oberon, I'd be hitting up Scott and Barda for a boom tube trip to New Genesis right about now...

[Static-Pulse]

L-RON : You forced me to.Thats what I'll tell Batman as he's stompin our asses .

Max: Forced you?

L-RON: Well, you certainly haven't paid me. About that...

Max: I am still holding a gun, L-RON.

L-RON: Forced at gunpoint. Thank you, oh traitorous one.

[Phoney Bone]

In Memorium:

http://omega.animefringe.com/riphunter/4booster.jpg<-- (Skeets)


you were a machine
of metal cold
you helped your buddy
booster gold

you had no hands
you had no feets
you had no ... um ... tastebuds

goodbye, skeets

[EZMOHR]

In Memorium:

http://omega.animefringe.com/riphunter/4booster.jpg<-- (Skeets)


you were a machine
of metal cold
you helped your buddy
booster gold

you had no hands
you had no feets
you had no ... um ... tastebuds

goodbye, skeets

A finer eulogy never written.

[Phoney Bone]

A finer eulogy never written.

Thank you. 'Twas a difficult chore, but, it came from the bottom o' me heart.

:(

[AlanScott606]

In Memorium:

http://omega.animefringe.com/riphunter/4booster.jpg<-- (Skeets)


you were a machine
of metal cold
you helped your buddy
booster gold

you had no hands
you had no feets
you had no ... um ... tastebuds

goodbye, skeets

Dude i so wanna put that in my signature. :D

[Phoney Bone]

Dude i so wanna put that in my signature. :D

Be my guest, pal. :)

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Max: Forced you?

L-RON: Well, you certainly haven't paid me. About that...

Max: I am still holding a gun, L-RON.

L-RON: Forced at gunpoint. Thank you, oh traitorous one.


Max: Now see how this works. Once we take over I'll have the statue of Maxwell Lord built over there.

L-RON: Use the gun.

Max: All the women In the World will follow me. I will be thier sex object. The men will wish to be me.

L-RON: Use the gun ...please! I'm beggin you !

Max: Nope...I'm evil . I'm a bad guy now BWA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA.

L-RON: Dear lord....I feel sorry for those saps at Checkmate.

Max: What was that , L-Ron ?

L-RON: I said Superman Is gonna get his ass handed to him. Wonder Woman will be turned on as you beat him down.

Max: Now thats a good robot , L-RON. Maybe It me but do you ever think Wonder Woman maybe....

L-RON: Lesbian ?

Max: Jesus man! Were evil bad guys. But we have some tact here. Now lets get down to Checkmate business .

L-RON: Ok ole evil one. I wonder If they get paid ?

[Sk8maven]

Still, it was an 80-page for a buck. No way I could refuse that.

I could. And I did.

Maven

[Captain Jim]

I'm really interested to see who finds out about Beetle's death and what it's going to do to the hero community. I bet we're going to see a lot of guilt and infighting over it.

I have a hunch this may happen in the OMAC series. It appears to be more directly linked to these events than the others.

[Captain Jim]

People are REALLY taking the "everyone was a dick to Beetle" a little too far. Almost EVERY hero that blew Beetle off had a good reason to. Batman was freaking out about the mindwipes. Manhunter had a PLANETARY WAR to deal with. Oracle couldn't be reached. Superman, Hal, and WW ALL treated Ted with respect, but they, too, obviously had important work to do. It SEEMS very cold at first glance, but we have to remember that these heroes were NOT just sitting around having tea and crumpets when Beetle came to them. They were ALL occupied with what they believed were more urgent superhero business.

I know when I'M stressed out...when I have a very big problem on my hands, and I'm in the middle of dealing with it, I get edgy too. Almost everyone does. And when someone else starts bugging me with their apparently lesser problem, I get a little frustrated with them...and I tend to brush them off. That's what happened in Countdown..only on a much larger scale.

I'm not trying to say that in hindsight, they were RIGHT to do it...I'm just saying that they weren't NEARLY the horrible, uncaring monsters some people are making them out to be.

I've only had time to skim the issue so far, but my initial impression is much like what's stated above.

[UniqueFrequency]

i haven't read the issue yet (shipping's late in Singapore this week)

but i've read through the thread and i'm disappointed Ted's dead and Max is the villian. it REALLY seems like DC is pissing on Giffen's JLA. which i think is a huge mistake.

from what i've read, i'm surprised no one was taking Beetle seriously. i mean, this is after Identity Crisis. aren't they supposed to be MORE vigilant and all over their fellow heroes? have they forgotten what's happened to Sue?

i've no doubt that when i read it, from a storytelling perspective it's probably gonna be awesome. but i do think how everything plays together just doesn't feel right

[Captain Jim]

In Memorium:

you were a machine
of metal cold
you helped your buddy
booster gold

you had no hands
you had no feets
you had no ... um ... tastebuds

goodbye, skeets

:D :D LOL ! :D :D

[JeffreyWKramer]

I know when I'M stressed out...when I have a very big problem on my hands, and I'm in the middle of dealing with it, I get edgy too. Almost everyone does. And when someone else starts bugging me with their apparently lesser problem, I get a little frustrated with them...and I tend to brush them off. That's what happened in Countdown..only on a much larger scale.

We're not talking about you. Or me. Or anyone real. We're talking about the Justice League. Someone stole Kryptonite? Yeah, so? Big deal, Superman stops people from blowing up planets and stuff like that all the time. Martian Manhunter has survived the destruction of his race. Wonder Woman has been a literal goddess. Batman at least has reason to be pissed, but he's survived being brainwashed, having his back broken, being framed for murder, being poisoned, electrocuted, shot, stabbed and nearly drowned, and almost getting baked alive and eaten by a sentient gorilla. If they get irked and distracted and bent out of shape by the events leading up to COUNTDOWN, they should have died of stress dealing with the events in about half of their past eventures.

Some people these days apparently like the heroes toned down to the point of being just ordinary schmoes. I guess the concept that maybe someone can be better than ordinary is either too threatening for some folk, or they're too limited in their mentality to imagine someone or something better than themselves.

No wonder we end up with the sort of dim-bulb leaders and inane pop stars we have.

[Master Darque]

Just making a comment on metas and mutants from a few posts I saw a few pages ago .... DC has mutants . Metas aren't DCs version of mutants . Flash is a meta human , Jericho of the Titans was a mutant .

Also .... I can't help but wonder .... if Booster is from the future , why the hell didn't he see any of this coming ??

[CodeMonkey]

I also kind of did a double take while reading the issue about people's reaction to Ted. It seems a little odd that he had conclusive evidence that he was specifically being targetted, and was ignored.

Some cases made sense: Batman was probably already aware of Kord's money being stolen and had it on the backburner to investigate and the mention of Dr. Light pissed him off. That's just Bats. Especially the new, "I'm not nice to anyone", bats.

But Martian Manhunter was already showing him the door BEFORE being aware of the Thangarrian invasion. Oh well. At least Barbara tried.

I also felt like Beetle had nothing to do with the files being erased. He showed no real reaction to Max's question about what he had done with them, and just prior he was clicking through them trying to find out what data was in there.

I though Booster and Beetle were actually written well this time and I cared more about them in this single issue than I have in any prior appearance of them I've ever read (i.e. all their apperances in the Justice League and related books).

Overall, I enjoyed the book (even moreso if I ignore the odd reactions to Beetle) but I'm getting sick of books that jump back and forth 12 times an issue.

"12 minutes ago!"
"24 hours ago!"
"3 seconds before the last time we mentioned the time before last!"

[Apathy Boy]

Blue Beetle is one of my favourite characters ever. In fact, the Len Wein series was the first book I regularly picked up and Giffen/Dematties' JLI is one of my favourite comics ever. So do you want to know what pissed me off most about DC COUNTDOWN?

My copy was missing 16 pages. (64 pages is pretty weighty in its own right. How the heck was I supposed to know it was supposed to be weightier?)

But that's my only complaint. Yeah, I bummed that Beetle's dead and Max is evil(er), but DAMN! what a way to go. I couldn't help but smile when Max told Beetle he was never a second-stringer and when Beetle told Max to rot in hell. And Beetle's good-bye to Booster nearly had me in tears.

That was a hell of a send-off and one of the best heroic deaths I've seen in a comic.

[Apathy Boy]

My two cents on some of the major complaints about this book:

1. Yeah, the rest of the superheroes were kind of jerks towards Beetle. But that's only a minor deviation from how they treated him before. Back in the JLI days, Beetle was once brainwashed into trying to assassinate Max Lord and no one even noticed until he stabbed Oberon.

And as J'onn alluded to, most of the heroes trusted Beetle enough to let him take care of himself. You'll notice that Beetle only asked the other heroes for intel, not backup.

[Apathy Boy]

2. I wish people would stop complaining about DC's vendetta against Giffen/Dematties' JLI. Contrary to public opinion, Giffen isn't holding any grudges (http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=4585):

A lot of people seem to think that Giffen hates and resents DC Comics and "Identity Crisis" because of the death of Sue Dibny, who was a prominent character in his "Justice League" stories from the 1980s. This is also untrue. "There's a lot of people out there trying to make a case for me being pissed off at DC and hating 'Identity Crisis,' and being broken hearted about Sue Dibny," Giffen said. " Hey, reality check, Sue Dibny, she's not even real. No, I'm not angry over 'Identity Crisis' or anything that went on it. Do I have issues with DC? I have issues with everybody! No there are no hard feelings and as a matter of fact I read 'Identity Crisis.' It's a good read and I understand why they're doing it. I get it. I really get it."Yeah, the Giffen league isn't exactly being treated well, but that's hardly a unique situation. I mean, when is someone going to start complaining about DC's vendetta against Gerard Jones' JUSTICE LEAGUE AMERICA?

Wonder Woman: blinded
Crimson Fox: dead
Metamorpho: dead, alive, dead, alive and split in two
Nuklon: evil
Obsidian: evil, then not-evil but depowered
Hawkman: in limbo
Fire: uh, the exception that proves the rule?

Or how about Grant Morrison's JLA?

Wonder Woman: blinded
Batman: a dick
Flash: wife miscarried
Green Lantern: replaced by John Stewart and again by Hal Jordan
Aquaman: dead, then alive but not in the League
Superman and Martian Manhunter: sure, they're fine now, but just see if that's the case in a couple of years!

[Forsaken_One]

Hawkman: in limbo
Um... doesn't Hawkman have his own bloody series?

[Apathy Boy]

Um... doesn't Hawkman have his own bloody series?The Carter Hall Hawkman does. The Katar Hol Hawkman from Jones' JUSTICE LEAGUE AMERICA does not.

*takes deep breath* The Katar Hol Hawkman was combined with a bunch of different Hawkmen and Hawkwomen during ZERO HOUR and then was merged with some kind of hawk-avatar thingee and then put into a limbo where Carter Hall's soul also resided and then Carter Hall was resurrected with some of Katar Hol's memories though Katar Hol himself has not been brought back to life himself. I think. *exhales*

[Forsaken_One]

Oh, okay. I figured Hawkman and Hawkman combined to become Hawkman! Now he's an alien and a reincarnated Egyptian pharoh who can, um, twice fly. And use magic and technology. Or something.

I dunno, I'm still confused by him being one thing but Hawkwoman and Hawkgirl being seperate. I'm going to take some advil and go to sleep.

[Paradox]

Phoney Bone joins the queue:

You noticed that, to, eh? When I bought the book yesterday, I was under the assuption that half of Blue's head would be gone and brains would be splattered everwhere and little old ladies would protest in the streets. Not nearly as graphic as the spoilers portrayed it to be.

I'm glad it's not just me. I looked at that pic and thought "That's dead?" I've seen lots of heroes survive worse looking stuff than that. He gets shot at the top of his head over on the right side and his mask rips. There's some blood and a big hole in his MASK, not his head. There's way too much hair drawn there for "brains blown out". Everyone who thinks he's dead is being suckered, IMHO.

It's off to the O.M.A.C. labs for Ted, methinks.

His story's not over by a LONG shot.

[Dr.J.]

Ted cord, became the BB, to carry on Dan Garrets legacy.I think it would be a nice touch, to see this golden age character brought back, to do the same for ted cord. I remember how decent he looked when the late Gil kane did him in a issue of secret origins

[Paradox]

Oh, geez, let me add Skeets to the "would you guys quit jumping the gun!" club. Yes, one tiny familiar component planted on Beetle's goggles means Skeets is no more. Did some of you just start reading comics?

I really liked this book. I'll admit to the "everyone was a dick to Beetle" being a bit over the top, but that didn't detract much from the story for me. It's possible that they ARE acting out of character and that's part of the plot. My roommate even commented (and he's not anywhere near as big a comic geek as the rest of us) "kind of depends on exactly HOW powerful Max has gotten, doesn't it?".

Nice pacing, good story, very nice character bits and I highly doubt Beetle's dead.

Very interested in what's going on here.

[cletus510]

Didn't like Countdown too much. 80 pages that could have been told in 3: Maxwell Lord is heading an anti-metahuman agency with a secret weapon, and Blue Beetle dies. Other than that, lots of talk, hushed reverent tones, and self-pity. (Okay, there were also a couple of pages that were lead-ins to the Rann-Thanagar War and Villains United series.)

Also, I am again offended by a publisher's "death" ploy. We are supposed to be shocked, saddened, and touched by the death and sacrifice of a beloved hero. "We'll miss you, Blue Beetle <sniff-sniff>." Oh, until they bring him back in a year. Cheap.

I also disliked the attempt to make Blue and Gold serious heroes. I don't know about you, but what made me love those guys in the first place was that they ARE sort of goofballs, slightly inept (compared to the A-listers), and not particularly powerful or threatening (and in the case of Beetle, sometimes stricken with a potbelly).

I'm not a comic snob (can there be such a thing?) who poo-poos superhero comics. I liked IC, looked forward to Countdown, and will follow the spin-offs. I just expected more from the book, especially after all the hype that DC and their writers gave it ("It's going to blow people away!"). Here's hoping the follow-ups are more intriguing.

[Paradox]

cletus510 brings up something that annoys me:

Didn't like Countdown too much. 80 pages that could have been told in 3: Maxwell Lord is heading an anti-metahuman agency with a secret weapon, and Blue Beetle dies.

Three pages? You just told it in a sentence. You could with just about any story.

Why has "as short as possible" become some kind of watermark for storytelling these days with some people?

I certainly didn't find this book "padded" or "decompressed" like you can validly say about many...

[palaeomerus]

I liked the writing, but hmmmm.... the revelation and ending reminded me of another story I've read, one that got retconned away (sort of).

DOOM PATROL #57. In short, The Chief has decided it's up to him to better the world for humanity. But, oops, Josh seems to be sticking his nose into things, and BLAM! Josh is shot dead by Chief, who HEY! has been living a lie (he can walk). Cliff finds Josh's body and Chief starts unveiling his master plan to his admitted favorite. So in the end, we have mentor/benefactor betraying his friends. Now, I'll admit Countdown only had one head blown off, and DP basically has two.... still it was more than a little familiar to me already.

<<--R.I.P. Ted Kord.... until Infinite Crisis I hope. Hopefully Donna Troy and Hal Jordan are good recent precedences for a return.

--Scott



Y'know what it reminded me of? Watchmen.

When everybody rushes to confront Veidt and he convinces Doc manhatten that he's right and kicks everyone else's ass what happened? Well it didn't just stop being a Super Hero story at that point. Something else happened. Veidt told them that the plan was already too much in motion to be stopped, that he was a man trying to save the Earth from itself, and that he didn't want to kill anyone but it had to be done to prevent a thermonuclear armageddon and ensure the survival of mankind.

Rorshach didn't take it so well and Doc Manhatten obliterates him leaving only his journal to tell the tale in some scary right wing rag after the fact. But Night Owl II takes his broken nose and agrees to just go along with Veidt and keep his mouth shut. He bleaches his hair and hanges his name and he and silk spectre go to live in the suburbs somewhere. Not very heroic Dan!

As you probably know... the Watchmen were largely based on the Charlton heroes. Veidt was Peter Cannon, The Comedian was sort of an evil Peacemaker, Rorshach was a MUCH crazier Question(we've just got to piss on Ditko now don't we!?) and Night Owl was pretty much an aging tired version of the Blue Beetle!

Well the real Blue Beetle has finally faced his Veidt in the form of Maxwell Lord and unlike Dreiburg he went out spitting and defiant with no desire to compromise away the dream of his predecessor. It's almost like he told Alan Moore and his deconstructionist "realism" to eff off and showed the readers how a real man with convictions who isn't just an empty super hero costume (that ran out of options) dies. Also this comic was pretty much DESIGNED to make you hate the big heroes.(It was also unapologetically pooping all over the Giffen and Dematteis funny JLI stuff. They pretty much cut it out with a scissors and threw it away. It will never read the same way again.) The JLA really let Ted down. But it made you love Ted. It made you love Booster again too.

Of course TED may not be as dead as people want to think. Maxwell Lord is a cyborg with an artificial body after all. And somebody has to be the new O.M.A.C. It's not like it's just gonna be fin headed power armor teleported from a satellite forever! And who knows. Maybe he'll be brought back by the Blue Scarab and become even more Spider Man like. L-Ron is still out there somewhere. He has to made into somethign that's more easily discardable too like Ice and Skeets and all the other victims. Maybe Ted'll wake up on some sinister operating table being modified and repaired by a chilling L-Ron who wants to make wacky and friendly conversation with his paralyzed but aware "friend" about old times as he rewrites memories, replaces organics with inorganics, and implants commands to make Ted loyal to Lord and Checkmate's rogue side...

The big heroes of the DCU definitley have Blue Beetle filed under light weight. But they were wrong about him. They are wrong about a lot of things. They look just as arrogant and myopic as the Jedi of the Starwars Prequels. Like the Jedi they seem to have a downfall in the offing.

It's damn shame that they took a great character and decided that he was only worth one good story. So I hope this is just a stop along the way to a newer better Ted Kord in some form. But if he becomes a damned elemental like Black Orchid I'm gonna quit reading comics probably.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I...think I'll just stay out of this thread.

You're a smarter man than I...

[Phoney Bone]

Well the real Blue Beetle has finally faced his Veidt in the form of Maxwell Lord and unlike Dreiburg he went out spitting and defiant with no desire to compromise away the dream of his predecessor. It's almost like he told Alan Moore and his deconstructionist "realism" to eff off and showed the readers how a real man with convictions who isn't just an empty super hero costume (that ran out of options) dies.


GASP! :eek: Please tell me you didn't just say that! That's like ... like ... spitting on the Holy Bible of funny books!


(GREAT post!)

[Phoney Bone]

You're a smarter man than I...

You're not foolin' anybody. You KNOW you want to. ;) :p

[the Monitor]

In Memorium:

you were a machine
of metal cold
you helped your buddy
booster gold

you had no hands
you had no feets
you had no ... um ... tastebuds

goodbye, skeets

Excellent!!

[the Monitor]

Three pages? You just told it in a sentence. You could with just about any story.

Why has "as short as possible" become some kind of watermark for storytelling these days with some people?

I certainly didn't find this book "padded" or "decompressed" like you can validly say about many...

I agree with 'Dox on this. The story moved at a nice clip.


Decompressed (which, again, I don't think this book was) isn't necessarily a bad thing. It's a tool that can be used to tell effective stories. The problem is that for some writers it seems to be the only tool in their toolbox. <cliche> When all ya got is a hammer, everything starts looking like a nail. </cliche>

Powers, for example, works great decompressed. Your typical Superman story, not so much.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

All in all, I'd say this was a pretty decent send-off for Blue Beetle. Considering how obscure he is, I think the fact that he got such an important and respectfull final adventure is pretty remarkable. Better characters than Blue frickin' Beetle have gotten far less when it came time for their final hurrahs. Even Booster Gold came off pretty well...

I'm a little nostalgic about this final nail being put into the coffin of the Giffen/DeMatties JLA, but I can't get too worked up over it. As much as I loved the early years of those stories and characters, their best years were clearly behind them. The recent Formerly Known as Justice League was pretty amusing, but not exactly amazing.

Maxwell Lord was my favorite character from the Giffen/DeMatties era, but he was so badly abused by Dan Jurgens and Gerry Jones following their departure that I can't exactly cry foul at what's being done to him now. And, I must admit, that I am curious to see what could be done with him as a villain. I'm curious as to how he managed to fool J'Onn all this time. I mean, Max has flirted with the dark side on numerous occasions and J'Onn made a pretty thourough mind scan of him and proclaimed that he was a good man. You have to be pretty slick to fool J'Onn when it comes to telepathy.

By the way, J'Onn was the only guy who seemed out of character in Countdown. I know he doesn't exactly have the fondest memories of his time within the JLI, but he was pretty rude to Beetle even before the Rann/Thanagar thing erupted.

[Shem the Penman]

Mark me down as a Blue Beetle fan (I've even got an action figure of him on my desk here) who doesn't see what all the fuss is about.

Yeah, I hate to see him go out, but at least he did it in style. And I'd rather see him go out doing something than floating around in comics limbo with an occasional guest appearance.

Giffen's JL/JLI/JLA did more damage to Beetle than Countdown ever did, turning him into the League's chauffeur, making his scheming a running joke, and giving him great plotlines like "I'm too fat to fit in my costume!" and "I've got heart disease!" You want to complain about disrespect to Beetle? Start there.

But I agree with one thing: J'onn did seem out of character.

[Karl J. Barnes]

Mark me down as a Blue Beetle fan (I've even got an action figure of him on my desk here) who doesn't see what all the fuss is about.

Yeah, I hate to see him go out, but at least he did it in style. And I'd rather see him go out doing something than floating around in comics limbo with an occasional guest appearance.

Giffen's JL/JLI/JLA did more damage to Beetle than Countdown ever did, turning him into the League's chauffeur, making his scheming a running joke, and giving him great plotlines like "I'm too fat to fit in my costume!" and "I've got heart disease!" You want to complain about disrespect to Beetle? Start there.

But I agree with one thing: J'onn did seem out of character.

True, Giffen and DeMathesis(sp?) made Bettle and Booster into jokes. At first , it was great and wild, but after a while, I thought that the schtick got old.

Martian Manhunter...maybe he is being mind controlled or he ran out of Oreos that day and was in a bitchy mood.

[Viking Bastard]

Everyone who thinks he's dead is being suckered, IMHO.Same here. I'm still sure we're being led.

I liked Countdown, but I see it as a first chapter in a larger tale. It's
Seven Soldiers #0, basically. A prolouge that spins into several series
that tie together into a bigger story.

This is the pilot episode. I'm always forgiving to pilot episodes.

[Adam Crocker]

Everyone who thinks he's dead is being suckered, IMHO.


Well...if you want to be massively spoiled, go to the DC website. They have the preview for the OMAC project up and you can see for yourself exactly what the Blue Beetle's fate is. It also sheds light on how those files on the heroes may have been erased.

[titanfan]

Giffen's JL/JLI/JLA did more damage to Beetle than Countdown ever did, turning him into the League's chauffeur, making his scheming a running joke, and giving him great plotlines like "I'm too fat to fit in my costume!" and "I've got heart disease!" You want to complain about disrespect to Beetle? Start there.

The heart disease wasn't Giffen. It was Giffen acknowledging a Dixon subplot for Beetle that Chuck had in BOP.

The Giffen Blue Beetle had his moments too. He figured out the key to beating Starro. Despero acknowledged him as having the second strongest mind behind J'Onn. (There was also a great serial murderer/virus story in JLIQ that showed how dangerous Beetle could be) When Jurgens took over the book, he took things a step further. Beetle outsmarted the Weapons Master, who had defeated all the other Leaguers. Beetle also lead the "second stringers" on the team (Ice, Beetle, Fire) to a win over Starbreaker.

I would think that while (at times) Beetle came across as overly buffoonish, most people who read the entire JLI series already had a level of respect for Beetle.

[TCJohnson]

Well...if you want to be massively spoiled, go to the DC website. They have the preview for the OMAC project up and you can see for yourself exactly what the Blue Beetle's fate is. It also sheds light on how those files on the heroes may have been erased.

Yup, Ted won't be coming back. Wow, DC editorial must REALLY hate him.

[Gingold]

I'll miss Beetle, (if he really is dead, the pictures werern't all that concusive IMO), but he went down in a well written story that at least made an attempt to respect the character. It seemed pretty clear that when Rucka, Johns, Winnick and co. made the decision, they realized that "this is going to piss a lot of people off, so let's try to do it right." Contrast that to the handling of Hawkeye and the rest's deaths during Avengers Disasembled- where the character's history and fans were barely an afterthought.

ACtually the reveal that Max is a bad guy bothers me a lot more. Mostly because it's been done (and un-done) before, and also because it turns the Giffen era league into the joke that its critics always (incorrectly) claimed it was. "Why do you think I kept the League ineffectual all those years?" Huh? They did save theworld several times over- and the group at various times included Batman, Captain Marvel, Captain Atom, J'onn, Dr. Fate,Flash, Wonder Woman, Metamorpho, Power Girl, Animal Man, Orion, Barda, Mr. Miracle, Hawkman, and Black Canary- hardly DCU lightweights.

Max as a villain is boring, he's simply another ego maniac mastermind with a hatred for metahumans. What made Max interesting all these years was that he was a selfish and ambitious person who decided to become a good person. So we toss that character development out the window in favor of a (seemingly- I know we hardly know the whole story yet) one dimensional manipulator- Lex Luthor with hair.

[Adam Crocker]

Yup, Ted [...]

Spoiler! Spoiler! Have you no consideration for others who wish to remain spoiler free!?

(Do not click on link lest you wish to read spoiler.)

Really the only way he can come back is through magic, in which case I want to see it a mini predicated on this (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showpost.php?p=1184973&postcount=4264)! I'd pay good money to see that.

[glennsim]

ACtually the reveal that Max is a bad guy bothers me a lot more. Mostly because it's been done (and un-done) before, and also because it turns the Giffen era league into the joke that its critics always (incorrectly) claimed it was. "Why do you think I kept the League ineffectual all those years?" Huh? They did save theworld several times over- and the group at various times included Batman, Captain Marvel, Captain Atom, J'onn, Dr. Fate,Flash, Wonder Woman, Metamorpho, Power Girl, Animal Man, Orion, Barda, Mr. Miracle, Hawkman, and Black Canary- hardly DCU lightweights.

Max as a villain is boring, he's simply another ego maniac mastermind with a hatred for metahumans. What made Max interesting all these years was that he was a selfish and ambitious person who decided to become a good person. So we toss that character development out the window in favor of a (seemingly- I know we hardly know the whole story yet) one dimensional manipulator- Lex Luthor with hair.

I've decided that the history of the DCU isn't actually what was published - it's what the current writers remember as being published, complete with generalizations.

The writers remember the Lord League as being funny, and pretty much just remember what happened in the first few issues. So they write their current series based only on that, without actually paying attention to the details.

The probably figure we don't remember (or care about) any more details than they do.

[west3man]

Spoiler! Spoiler! Have you no consideration for others who wish to remain spoiler free!?

(Do not click on link lest you wish to read spoiler.)

Really the only way he can come back is through magic, in which case I want to see it a mini predicated on this (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showpost.php?p=1184973&postcount=4264)! I'd pay good money to see that.
I don't know if you were joking or not, but I wanted to mention that the title of the thread says "***Spoilers!***"

[Adam Crocker]

I don't know if you were joking or not, but I wanted to mention that the title of the thread says "***Spoilers!***"

Partly through exaggerating my reaction, though partly serious. The thread is primarily about COUNTDOWN. I don't know if that spoiler warning applies to the mini-series coming after it so I'm erring on the side of caution.

And now for my thoughts...

It seems that for the most part the thoughts on Countdown are cleaved inbetween people who hated it and people who loved it, and often the people who hated it seem to have a stronger familiarity with the history of the DCU while those who liked it, not so much. I'm not very familiar with the DCU myself, though know a little about the history of the characters in this book, but I don't have much attachment to the main protagonist even if his portrayal made him very likeable and shame to see him killed off. (I'm generalizing here, and I could be off base)

To be honest, this thing has some good ideas going for it but the plot and character logic has serious credibility issues that bugger it. Watching Beetle struggle against the conspiracy was interesting as was his friendship with Booster Gold.

Yet in order for the plot to work I have to believe that all the superheroes in the DCU - particularly the big guns - are not only completely callous but utterly clueless. Blue Beetle's life is threatened again and again in the comic. Enormous amounts of money is siphoned off from his company, a warehouse with one hundred tonnes of Kryptonite is mysteriously looted, he is attacked by hired thugs shortly after the heroes leave his warehouse, his house is destroyed, his vehicle is bombed... and yet Martian Manhunter writes him off is being too paranoid (and before the SOS even comes in from Adam Strange to distract him) while Wonder Woman can only managed a perfunctory "I believe you" and "let me know of the results of your investigation"? Moreover, why isn't Superman helping him, particularly after the Kryptonite tip? Surely it can't take more than an hour for Superman to warn Supergirl and Superboy considering how fast he is before coming back to help BB? I mean an unknown party only stole one hundred tonnes of the one thing that can kill Superman. Yet his response is to fly off mid-sentence and leave Ted to go about his business himself? And Hal Jordan flies off without so much as offering an explanation as to what is keeping him busy.

By the time we got to Watchtower I seriously wondered that if Maxwell Lord waltzed in and announced his presence and nefarious scheme to J'onn or Wonder Woman whether they would do anything because you've got all the obvious signs of a conspiracy here and no one's listening. (Which is really hard to swallow given how the heroes banded together with Sue's death.) And that's what sours his death for me...not that he died, but that he died because DC's superheroes - including some of its best and brightest - weren't willing to help him when faced with obvious signs of a conspiracy. It's a shakey foundation for the ending.

Oh and I thought the new OMAC design was dull as church.

[west3man]

Partly through exaggerating my reaction, though partly serious. The thread is primarily about COUNTDOWN. I don't know if that spoiler warning applies to the mini-series coming after it so I'm erring on the side of caution.
I guess someone has an advance copy or something. Sorry I missed that.

[Tom]

Y'know, upon re-reading it, the only hero who really comes off bad is J'Onn with his "Then you will be leaving." Batman is a jerk to almost everyone, Superman wasn't really a jerk at all and neither was Wonder Woman. In fact, they showed faith in Ted, thinking he could handle whatever was going on. Sure, Shazam blew him off but he's never exactly been cuddly either. Barbara showed concern for what he was going through as well, but again, she trusted him to handle his own affairs.

[Adam Crocker]

I guess someone has an advance copy or something. Sorry I missed that.

There aren't any out yet. The DC website has the previews up for all the countdown to infinite crisis mini series and the preview pages they have posted for The Omac Project have spoilers in regards to the Blue Beetle's ultimate fate as well as the files that were erased in Countdown.

[Tom]

Something else: Calculator is bemoaning the loss of the hundred pounds of kryptonite and says he's contacted Shimmer and Dr. 104 (both transmuters). There are screenshots of the two of them in the background. Luthor says there are other sources and we see screenshots of Firestorm, Breach and...Power Girl? What's that about?

[palaeomerus]

Power Girl can create a wide range of heavy elements by crushing ordinary grains of sand between her enormous super strong breasts which fuses the atoms together into heavier atoms. The process resembles the high energy environments found in massive super novas somewhat. I thought everyone knew that. That's what the cleavage hole in her costume is for.

[west3man]

Something else: Calculator is bemoaning the loss of the hundred pounds of kryptonite and says he's contacted Shimmer and Dr. 104 (both transmuters). There are screenshots of the two of them in the background. Luthor says there are other sources and we see screenshots of Firestorm, Breach and...Power Girl? What's that about?
re: Power Girl

This is just from memory, but I *think* there were people on the screen who were affected by or able to produce kryptonite in some form or fashion. Since Power Girl is "occasionally" affected by k-rock, that might be why she was shown. Maybe.

[Tom]

re: Power Girl

This is just from memory, but I *think* there were people on the screen who were affected by or able to produce kryptonite in some form or fashion. Since Power Girl is "occasionally" affected by k-rock, that might be why she was shown. Maybe.
No shots of Superman, 'boy, or 'girl, though.

[west3man]

No shots of Superman, 'boy, or 'girl, though.
I thought there were.

I also thought there were either multiple panels with different images on the monitors or multiple groups of monitors with different images.

I thought Super-folk, at least Superman, were shown on that page, but it IS just from memory, so you may be right.

[Titan Slade]

SPOLIERS







The Omac Project, by Rucka and Siaz, continues the story of Max Lord and Checkmate, and the organization's shocking ties to Batman. "There is nothing more dangerous than Batman's arrogance" says Rucka. "Max knows that once the superhero community finds out about Blue Beetle, it could bring him into conflict with the only 3 people on the planet he is afraid of: Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman".

Day of Vengeance, by Willingham and Justiniano, finds the Spectre without a human host and losing touch with the people he's bound to judge. Eclipso convince him that all magic must be squashed. The Spectre quickly incapacitates Dr. Fate, Madame Xanadu, and the Phantom Stranger. The unlikeliest of opposition emerges in the form of Jim Rook, Blue Devil, Enchantress, Nightshade, Ragman and Dectitive Chimp. Also joining the fray will be Captain Marvel.

Looks good to me :D .

[Forsaken_One]

Oh, goody. Batman's being thrown down a few more notches. :rolleyes:

I am so bloody tired of this stuff. If that's the case it's a sure bet that I won't be shelling out good money for it.

[Ray192]

Detective Chimp??? :eek:

Now I'll be SURE to get it.

[muimi]

Oh, goody. Batman's being thrown down a few more notches. :rolleyes:

Mm, agreed though I have to admit, I'm quite intrigued. While I disliked some aspects of Countdown -- was never a fan of Blue Beetle but even so... -- I liked it overall and am a sucker almost anything that involves Batman. Now with Rucka acknowledging that Batman's arrogance is dangerous, I'm curious to see how this is going to be explored and if this will help him develop into something other than a grade A arse. *hopes*

[stealthwise]

"Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman"?

What about the guy who nearly rewrote all of DC's history? You know, formerly the most dangerous man in the universe, Hal Jordan?

[pureclint]

"Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman"?

What about the guy who nearly rewrote all of DC's history? You know, formerly the most dangerous man in the universe, Hal Jordan?

Yeah!


Anyone read the Omac Preview on the DCU OWS?

Batman is on Max's ass already.

He deleted all of Max's Info seems he DID listen to Ted after all but in typical Bats fashion ment he would handle it when he said he would handle it!

Yeah I know it is a spoiler thread but he I respect those who do not want to be spoiled about OMAC.

[cletus510]

Three pages? You just told it in a sentence. You could with just about any story.

Why has "as short as possible" become some kind of watermark for storytelling these days with some people?

I certainly didn't find this book "padded" or "decompressed" like you can validly say about many...

Yeah, but at least other books do it in 22 pages, not stretch it out to 80. Of course I don't expect a 3 page story, but the plot didn't merit 80 pages. I was expecting a whole lot more.

[west3man]

No shots of Superman, 'boy, or 'girl, though.
I don't know if you'd already done so, but since I'm home, I checked that page, again. You were right.

[Astonishing X-Fan]

Whenever someone complains that a book should be compressed, I always find myself looking at the book in question and seeing how horrible it would be if it were shorter. If Countdown was a normal sized comic, so much characterization and good dialogue would have been cut out. You know, just because a scene isn't important to the story, doesn't mean it shouldn't be there.

But that's just me. I'm not the "get on with it!" type...I like it when a lot of time is spent on character buildup and interaction.

[AlanScott606]

Whenever someone complains that a book should be compressed, I always find myself looking at the book in question and seeing how horrible it would be if it were shorter. If Countdown was a normal sized comic, so much characterization and good dialogue would have been cut out. You know, just because a scene isn't important to the story, doesn't mean it shouldn't be there.

But that's just me. I'm not the "get on with it!" type...I like it when a lot of time is spent on character buildup and interaction.

I feel the same way, I would rather read an extra few pages of good characterization than just a bunch of hurried up action scenes.

[west3man]

I feel the same way, I would rather read an extra few pages of good characterization than just a bunch of hurried up action scenes.

I think I'm far more forgiving of such things when I get the story all at once, as opposed to every few weeks. When a year goes by, I don't care if it IS only 12 issues, I want to be able to look back over those issues and know that something HAPPENED. That the money I spent on all those comics went toward actual entertainment.

If it's an 80-page one-shot, as opposed to a 60-page one-shot... ehn. No biggie.

[Deathstroke]

Cool issue!

So we learn that Batman really does know what the league did to him.

Checkmate was one of my favorite series in the 80's, and it's a little disconcerting that they've basically made it into the SS for the government. Max even does the whole racist speech.

Maxwell Lord is the evil genius? I sure wouldn't have thought that.

Skeets was kidnapped and murdered?

Hey the woman Blue Beetle fights trying to escape, was that supposed to be Black Thorn?

I am very interested to see where this is going. Plus Batman apparently behind the actual creation of OMAC? Okay, that's going to raise hell with the rest of the community.

[Captain Jim]

I also disliked the attempt to make Blue and Gold serious heroes. I don't know about you, but what made me love those guys in the first place was that they ARE sort of goofballs, slightly inept (compared to the A-listers), and not particularly powerful or threatening (and in the case of Beetle, sometimes stricken with a potbelly).

You make it sound like that was their original portrayal. One reason I did NOT like JLI all that much was that it took two serious heroes, ignored all that made them unique, and turned them into clowns.

[JeffreyWKramer]

You make it sound like that was their original portrayal. One reason I did NOT like JLI all that much was that it took two serious heroes, ignored all that made them unique, and turned them into clowns.

Well, actually, Blue Beetle was barely even a presence in the DCU prior to the launch of the Giffen-era JL. Up to that point, he had appeared exclusively in one issue of SECRET ORIGINS, a few issues of CRISIS (in the last-gasp of his Charlton incarnation), the LEGENDS miniseries and a couple issues of his own post-CRISIS title. In his title, he was a joker, but not a complete joke. The problem is, JL focused on just the jokes.

Booster, though... well, he was definitely done a disservice in JL. His backstory was pretty much entirely ignored, his supporting cast weren't present, etc.

[Captain Jim]

Well, actually, Blue Beetle was barely even a presence in the DCU prior to the launch of the Giffen-era JL. Up to that point, he had appeared exclusively in one issue of SECRET ORIGINS, a few issues of CRISIS (in the last-gasp of his Charlton incarnation), the LEGENDS miniseries and a couple issues of his own post-CRISIS title.

I just double-checked, and his own book had 24 issues (1986-1988)

In his title, he was a joker, but not a complete joke. The problem is, JL focused on just the jokes.

Booster, though... well, he was definitely done a disservice in JL. His backstory was pretty much entirely ignored, his supporting cast weren't present, etc.

Definitely. I never thought BB's book was all that memorable, but I enjoyed Dan Jurgens' original Booster title. It had a lot to make it unique, none of which was reflected in JLI/JLA.

[Captain Jim]

Since this has been asked a couple of times, my interpretation is that the spoiler tag in the thread title applies ONLY to CtIC. So, if you intend to spoil something else, yes, you DO need to use spoiler tags [spoil ] [/ spoil].

[JeffreyWKramer]

I just double-checked, and his own book had 24 issues (1986-1988). Yes, but only a couple had come out before JL started. His book continued for a couple years while JL continued a lot longer. But, the bulk of Beetle's appearances in the DCU have been in JL stories. It wasn't like he had a strong presence before JL at all.



Definitely. I never thought BB's book was all that memorable, but I enjoyed Dan Jurgens' original Booster title. It had a lot to make it unique, none of which was reflected in JLI/JLA.

Yup, Booster was a much more interesting and distinct character in his own book than his JL-only fans would know.

[GremlinClr]

I am very interested to see where this is going. Plus Batman apparently behind the actual creation of OMAC? Okay, that's going to raise hell with the rest of the community.

Maybe their going to revisit Tower of Babel. I mean
I think the new O.M.A.C. is made specifically to take down metas. And since they know Bruce is Bats maybe they got his contingency plans and put them to use in the creation of O.M.A.C.

[CodeMonkey]

A friend of mine mentioned this, and it tickled my fancy so much I thought I would share:

You know what could have been a rather interesting plot twist?

What if Booster and Blue Beetle actually used to be so hardcore that the JLA had to Mindwipe *them* to make them the goofball "harmless" heroes they are. Would certainly explain the way the league treats them, and why they basically ignored them.

The potential in that concept, with them possibly regaining their memories and their reactions would be a gold mine...

Ah well. There's still hope for Booster busting loose.

[Forsaken_One]

A friend of mine mentioned this, and it tickled my fancy so much I thought I would share:

You know what could have been a rather interesting plot twist?

What if Booster and Blue Beetle actually used to be so hardcore that the JLA had to Mindwipe *them* to make them the goofball "harmless" heroes they are. Would certainly explain the way the league treats them, and why they basically ignored them.

The potential in that concept, with them possibly regaining their memories and their reactions would be a gold mine...

Ah well. There's still hope for Booster busting loose.
The problem with that theory is, well... it would completely ruin any character who agreed to do it to them. It was questionable enough doing it to a rapist and then erase just the memory of Batman. It's stil morally reprehensible but it's excusable to a degree. But to warp the minds of two heros so significantly that they're ineffective, and then have them join the league and become jokes? That passes by immoral and goes straight into unforgivable. Anyone who was involved with that kind of activity would not, by definition, be a hero.

That and we've seen the beginnings of both heros and they didn't involve being "hardcore."

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Yup, Booster was a much more interesting and distinct character in his own book than his JL-only fans would know.

I have a hard time swallowing the idea that a character created by Dan "Super-Mullet" Jurgens was in any way, shape or form interesting, but I guess it's at least possible.

[scottdkflorida]

Hi all,
I read Countdown last night, I liked it, but I've always been a softy for the Crisis, Zero Hour, and Legends type series. There are some things in Countdown that might be confusing for the "new" readers that a $1 one-shot is supposed to bring in. I've read DC since the early 80's and I was still wondering about some things.

Anyway, Blue Beetle didn't deserve to die in the manner he did. However, just like real life, he had no control over his "murderer," Maxwell Lord and/or the DC writers. We human beings are fragile, Countdown showed how fragile a human like Blue Beetle/Ted Kord can be, and I loved this issue for that. Just like Blue Beetle, we will all find a way to check out of this world in the end, and hope that we did everything along the way as best we could. When Beetle told the nurse to tell Booster that he was the best friend a person could have, I choked up, and remembered the Justice League of 1986 that I fell in love with.

I think there's real potential here, if people give it a chance. Oh, as another thought, remember Beetle/Kord was introduced to DC Comics during the original Crisis, after being bought from Charlton/Fawcett (or wherever they bought him and Captain Atom from). It's possible there will be some connection there that we haven't seen yet. We'll all see together I suppose, I have way too much of my heart invested in the DC Universe to give up on it, no matter how grim it may seem at times. Oh, and wasn't the scene with Wonder Woman the nursemaid great? I feel that way about Wonder Woman, too...
-Scott in Florida

[Justin D.]

I've thought about this some more and came up with this.

In my review above, one of my main complaints is the treatment of Beetle by other characters. It just doesn't make much sense to me that so many heroes could come together to hunt down the murderer of Sue Dibny, but Ted Kord, a man many of them have worked alongside, can't find one hero other that Booster Gold to help him track down the suspicious attacks on his life and company. Sure, a select few might feel distanced from other heroes after knowing the mindwipe revelation of IDC, but only the smallest amount of hero characters know that. And even with that, some might feel the need to bond even more, not less, with their fellow heroes. The thread that flows through Countdown seems to pretty much ignore the one set-up in IDC. Yes, I know Superman, Batman, and maybe even Wonder Woman had reasons for not jumping to help him. Even though J'Onn was a jerk about it, he was a bit distracted with a Rann/Thanagar war although I don't see why he didn't immediately get Beetle to start manning equipment in the Watchtower.

But what about all the other heroes? They don't have excuses. Black Canary apologizing for him? When did she become a snotty bitch? It just seems like it's happening here. Hell, I'd think finding little to no lead to follow in the warehouse robbery/murderer (there is a body there too) would be even more of a reason for heroes to want to investigate further, not less, like it ends up.

Like some heroes just suddenly thought, "Hmm, a crime has been committed, there's a dead body over there, no traces of how it happened, and . . oh, Beetle owns the warehouse? Nevermind. I'm sure there was nothing worthwhile here. He can deal with it."

Hell, this one scene makes so many characters seem out of character. Actually, I just looked back on it, and noticed something else about that scene. Where the hell is Green Lantern going? Does he need to run off with Superman to tell two or three others about 100 pounds of kryptonite? How about, I don't know, scanning the warehouse for anything someone else might have missed?

Sorry, but this is a particularly big point when it comes to this story because it reflects so broadly and badly on other themes in recent DCU books, most notably IDC and the minis coming up. I seriously hope every hero who Beetle asked for help or saw before he was killed finds out he was killed and feels guilty because they didn't help. If nothing else, maybe this story can help the other heroes in the DCU bond a little more and come together a bit more. Although, I didn't know they needed to so much until Countdown.

[ColdFury]

And Justin just hit on a point that I think is what detracted from the experience from me.

We saw Beetle get dragged through the dirt in just about every possible way. I disagree with most people's perspective of the hero treatment... I think the warehouse is plausible because seriously, how many heroes do you need to investigate a warehouse break-in? They probably felt he was over-reactive, this is his responsibility to track down, and they DID give it a shot.

But the part that was missing to me was his post mortum comeuppance. The part where Batman realized Ted was right and now he's DEAD because of his inaction, his distrust. The part where Jonn realizes he dismissed a colleague and friend, and it cost him his life.

That's the part I wanted to see, and that's what the cover implied we would see.

I don't mind that Blue Beetle is dead. I have faith it will serve the story well, and be emotionally impacting and etc. THey put too much work into his swan song for it not to. But I think the story was hurt by not having that final part of the arc, the regret where the heroes of the DC Universe find his body, realize what they've done, and are horrified by it.

That's what the cover gave me the expectation of, and it was not delivered on.

I'll probably pick up most of the mini-series, though I'm most on the fence on the Rann-Thanagar war (I like Kyle, but, uh... DC Space stuff? I'd have to crib so much continuity on the fly.), so I'm sure I'll see the fallout from this. But I wanted to see it START in Countdown.

My two cents, anyway.

For my money, the only ones that were truly being dicks to Ted were Batman & Jonn ("You WILL be leaving, then."? What the hell, do they have a 'no loitering' policy for Justice League reserve members? Yeesh. Green Arrow's hanging out there every time I turn around.) Everyone else just seemed truly busy.

Good book, overall, though.

What's with Wonder Woman, though? Why the heck does she have eyes?

[JelloBiafra]

Everyone claiming the JLA members acted out of character towards BB must be suffering from selected memory loss. Go and re-read your old Giffen Justice League comics and tell me if you notice one consistent factor...that Blue Beetle (and Booster) are treated like irresponsible children except for the very few times that they were allowed to be truly heroic and those times were not that many. Writers like Jurgens and Dixon tried to make BB into a respectable hero again but the shadow of the goofball JLI still hung over the character's head and Formerly Known As The Justice League didn't do much to help.

The idea of Blue Beetle being a viable hero in the DCU was killed years ago by Giffen and Dematteis when they turned him into one half of the DCU's answer to Dumb and Dumber, COUNTDOWN just closed the casket.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Cool issue!

So we learn that Batman really does know what the league did to him.

Checkmate was one of my favorite series in the 80's, and it's a little disconcerting that they've basically made it into the SS for the government. Max even does the whole racist speech.

Maxwell Lord is the evil genius? I sure wouldn't have thought that.

Skeets was kidnapped and murdered?

Hey the woman Blue Beetle fights trying to escape, was that supposed to be Black Thorn?

I am very interested to see where this is going. Plus Batman apparently behind the actual creation of OMAC? Okay, that's going to raise hell with the rest of the community.



I sorta guessed that Batman's reason for quitting the JLA In the 80's to go with the Outsiders would be explained as part of him being angry with the League. Sooner or later he would figure It out.

Its pretty wild that DC can go back and make some things work In this overall huge 2 year story. Of course...I'm still pissed about Max and Beetle. Some things should never be done. Because It ruins what made these charactors so damn loveable.

[Tobias March]

Ya gotta love evil Max. Well maybe not. But the fond way he admitted he'd always hoped Blue Beetle would figure it out. So damn evil :rolleyes:

[palaeomerus]

If they could write one Beetle book like that then they could write more. The Giffen DeMatteis era "taint" is just an excuse to kill him by people who don't want to write about him as a nice guy with a sense of humor and a "BB gun".

DC made freaking Starman respectable again! Not just his son but the old red tights and fin headed Starman with the wand that looks like a marital aid!

And it seems to me that anyone who genuinely thinks that the Giffen/DeMatteis era of JLI ruined Beetle and Booster for ever and made them tainted characters that no one can work with should also have a problem with Maxwell Lord as a convincing bad guy. Either JLI had this awesome career ending power or it didn't. Either way Countdown has a problem.

[moebius]

I liked Countdown, and I think that most people who are saying "this is so out of character" were exaggerating.

Here's one thing I'll never get though:

Max has Ted bound and on his knees, and he's got a gun to his head. He asks Ted to join him or die. Ted refuses.

Now, if I'm in that situation...I JOIN!

-I'm not a meta-human, and Max honestly seems to like me, so I think I can take the offer seriously.
-I'm an extremely smart and competant individual, and at some point I'll be able to warn Batman about what's goint on. At the same time I'll be learning more about Checkmate, collecting intelligence.
-NO ONE ELSE KNOWS WHAT'S GOING ON, so my death is absolutely pointless. Yes, people will note a missing Ted Kord after a couple of days, and that will lead to a broader investigation. But there's no point in dying to do something when simply slipping or acting really odd will create the same effect.

It's not like Max said "sell your friends out or die" or "kill XYZ or die." "Join or die" at least gives you a chance to "renegotiate" the deal later on and betray Checkmate.

[Justin D.]

I liked Countdown, and I think that most people who are saying "this is so out of character" were exaggerating.

Here's one thing I'll never get though:

Max has Ted bound and on his knees, and he's got a gun to his head. He asks Ted to join him or die. Ted refuses.

Now, if I'm in that situation...I JOIN!

-I'm not a meta-human, and Max honestly seems to like me, so I think I can take the offer seriously.
-I'm an extremely smart and competant individual, and at some point I'll be able to warn Batman about what's goint on. At the same time I'll be learning more about Checkmate, collecting intelligence.
-NO ONE ELSE KNOWS WHAT'S GOING ON, so my death is absolutely pointless. Yes, people will note a missing Ted Kord after a couple of days, and that will lead to a broader investigation. But there's no point in dying to do something when simply slipping or acting really odd will create the same effect.

It's not like Max said "sell your friends out or die" or "kill XYZ or die." "Join or die" at least gives you a chance to "renegotiate" the deal later on and betray Checkmate.

Wow, anonther extremely good point that could've made this issue better.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I liked Countdown, and I think that most people who are saying "this is so out of character" were exaggerating.

Here's one thing I'll never get though:

Max has Ted bound and on his knees, and he's got a gun to his head. He asks Ted to join him or die. Ted refuses.

Now, if I'm in that situation...I JOIN!

-I'm not a meta-human, and Max honestly seems to like me, so I think I can take the offer seriously.
-I'm an extremely smart and competant individual, and at some point I'll be able to warn Batman about what's goint on. At the same time I'll be learning more about Checkmate, collecting intelligence.
-NO ONE ELSE KNOWS WHAT'S GOING ON, so my death is absolutely pointless. Yes, people will note a missing Ted Kord after a couple of days, and that will lead to a broader investigation. But there's no point in dying to do something when simply slipping or acting really odd will create the same effect.

It's not like Max said "sell your friends out or die" or "kill XYZ or die." "Join or die" at least gives you a chance to "renegotiate" the deal later on and betray Checkmate.

Maybe It would have worked better. But Ted was super smart and Max wouldn't just let him run loose without some Insurance Involved. Plus Ted wiped out his data on the Heroes.

Odds are Ted would have been made to fix It and betray his friends and others. Max knows Ted Is a smart guy and he had a plan to make sure Ted would stay In line til his usefulness ran out. And Ted I suppose knew that and decided to go down fighting as usual.

[Viking Bastard]

I'm still sure there's more to this. Even if it's just an introduction of a new Blue Beetle.

I mean, the scarab was there for a reason.

[moebius]

Maybe It would have worked better. But Ted was super smart and Max wouldn't just let him run loose without some Insurance Involved. Plus Ted wiped out his data on the Heroes.

Odds are Ted would have been made to fix It and betray his friends and others. Max knows Ted Is a smart guy and he had a plan to make sure Ted would stay In line til his usefulness ran out. And Ted I suppose knew that and decided to go down fighting as usual.

That plan would inevitably involve mind-wiping or mind-tampering, I'd think. Max isn't much of a TP, so he couldn't long-term control him. Probably it would involve conditioning. Two options:

1. I fight the conditioning just enough to create a sub-concious trigger, so that when I interact with Batman or Oracle, they know that something is wrong.

2. I ride it out, and expect that there's no way Max can beat the big guns. When I'm captured (relatively easily), the Martian Manhunter will determine that something is wrong and de-condition me.

As for getting the files back, only an idiot wouldn't have a hard copy of all that info ("What's the OMAC password?" "12345"). I think Ted probably crashed the system and forwarded them on to Oracle. No permanent damage.

BTW, did anyone here ever play Aberrant? The new Checkmate reminds me a great deal of the Directive, a super-secret agency of humans and low-level paranormals designed to contain and control meta-humanity.

[Ilash]

Man, I haven't been this torn about a book in... forever! It was on the whole well written and really well illustrated and the writers really wrote a great Ted Kord proving that he could be written in a non-humerous book well (I love JLI though, so that's no criticism to Giffen and Demaittes). But then there's that ending. Even though I'm not sure that Ted is going to stay dead, his death would be a waste of character that had almost been rediscovered in this book. My biggest problem though was Max. So everything we once knew about the character is a lie and all this time of him getting along fine with the superheroes in JL was a huge lie and he really wants to rid the world of the superhero menace? Righhhhht! I agree with Randy Lander over at theforthrail.com that this seems like everyone involved in this is sending a message "See how stupid you were, to think that there wasn't some dark, adult secret motive behind all that fun?", which is really rather crap frankly. Not to mention a freaking HUGE leap in logic. Still, I am intrigued enough that I will probably be checking out everything that comes out of this.

[Xero]

Excellent book and and if you've read the OMAC preview you know Ted Kord's final fate. I read the Paris Cullins Blue Beetle back in the day, but I wasn't attached to Ted Kord so I have no problem with a new mystically powered Blue Beetle III. The new human host of the Spectre most probably won't be anyone you know.

Batman deleted the files, not Ted.

Am I remembering this wrong, or did Nabu forge the Beetle Scarab using a mix of Thanagarian technology and magic?


EDIT: Remember people, if you're going to spoil something other than Countdown (i.e., OMAC Project), use spoiler tags! - JZ

[Justin D.]

I'm still sure there's more to this. Even if it's just an introduction of a new Blue Beetle.

I mean, the scarab was there for a reason.

Seems like it was just there for the intro to Days of Vengeance. It got Beetle into Shazam's lair. The DoV intro really didn't seem all that smooth.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Seems like it was just there for the intro to Days of Vengeance. It got Beetle into Shazam's lair. The DoV intro really didn't seem all that smooth.


Before that Ted says that the scarab gave Garrett his powers but he can't seem to get It to work for him. I think thier gonna say that It'll find a new host and that person will be the New Blue Beetle.

[Suzanne]

Aybody notice the similarities between Countdown and the JL Unlimited "animated" universe? Anybody notice the animated Watchtower satelitte in Flash a few months ago? Anybody notice how Beetle was worried about how "dark" things had gotten (which, one would assume, the upcoming event will rectify that)?

My speculation, Infinite Crisis will change the tone (though, not actual continuity) of the DCU from its current stste to that of the animated universe.I certainly have. As I was reading Countdown (which I thought was kick-ass, but more on that later), I was reminded of the plot that's been running through JLU's previous and current seasons - a secretive government operation to pull the reigns in on meta-humans. And look! Maxwell Lord's involved in both (though not to the extent as is in the book).

On to Countdown. I haven't read many comics with Blue Beetle, but I got the gist of him. However, this book made me care about him more than I had, and dammit, I got emotional when his brains were splattered! Poor guy :( Still, has it was pointed out, he went out like a hero. It wasn't an exploitative, shock-value death. He took one for the team, and it served the story well. Now, I'm not worried about the direction this will take DC. It shows that while superheroics can be an exciting thrill ride, bad things can happen to those involved. That it happened to someone readers cared about and not some generic cypher gives it more weight. If anything, I'm more excited about the other series springing from this.

[Atomlad]

Originally Posted by moebius
I liked Countdown, and I think that most people who are saying "this is so out of character" were exaggerating.

Here's one thing I'll never get though:

Max has Ted bound and on his knees, and he's got a gun to his head. He asks Ted to join him or die. Ted refuses.

Now, if I'm in that situation...I JOIN!

-I'm not a meta-human, and Max honestly seems to like me, so I think I can take the offer seriously.
-I'm an extremely smart and competant individual, and at some point I'll be able to warn Batman about what's goint on. At the same time I'll be learning more about Checkmate, collecting intelligence.
-NO ONE ELSE KNOWS WHAT'S GOING ON, so my death is absolutely pointless. Yes, people will note a missing Ted Kord after a couple of days, and that will lead to a broader investigation. But there's no point in dying to do something when simply slipping or acting really odd will create the same effect.

It's not like Max said "sell your friends out or die" or "kill XYZ or die." "Join or die" at least gives you a chance to "renegotiate" the deal later on and betray Checkmate.


Wow, anonther extremely good point that could've made this issue better.

It may be hard to believe, but there are people around who will just not give their word lightly- that would choose to go out that way rather than say something or associate themselves in any way with a group or idea that they hate. Even if it really didn't matter to the world in the long run, it would matter to them.

This happens to captured soldiers. No one would hold it against them if they agreed to sign whatever documents their captors wanted, denouncing their country or the war they were captured in. Some of them just will not do it and take the bullet or abuse for as long as they can.

[Deathstroke]

Wow, anonther extremely good point that could've made this issue better.

Perhaps BB thought even pretending to sell out his "hero" principles was too much. And there was no guarantee that Max wasn't just playing with him and would've killed him no matter which choice he made.

Another thing I got out of this issue was that it was the first really interesting Blue Beetle story in years, and it's the one where he gets killed off....

[Ian J.N.]

The more I reflect on Countdown, the more I like it. They took a standard convention of the Big Event story--killing off a second string character to show how serious the threat is--and built a solid character piece around it. The writers captured how it feels to be that second string hero.

And I thought Beetle's was a well written death. The two main categories of comic book deaths are senseless brutality (Jason Todd, Sue Dibney) and heroic sacrifice (Barry Allen, Hal Jordan, many others). Blue Beetle's was neither. The tragedy of his death springs partly from his own actions (That nobody took him seriously has much to do with Beetle's past behavior. BB didn't take life or himself seriously), and there was no vaunted sacrifice for the greater good. The only thing Beetle can say was that while he wasn't the perfect hero, he died a good person and with his head held high. We should all be so lucky.

[pureclint]

But the part that was missing to me was his post mortum comeuppance. The part where Batman realized Ted was right and now he's DEAD because of his inaction, his distrust. The part where Jonn realizes he dismissed a colleague and friend, and it cost him his life.


Your Wrong here. Batman did act and he did Trust Ted. He told Ted he would look into it, as that is how Batman currently acts in the DCU he does not want help.

And go read the Omac preview on the DCU official site.

Batman did do something.

Heck he actually knew what Ted found before Ted did it seems and started fixing the problem.

[Captain Jim]

And Justin just hit on a point that I think is what detracted from the experience from me.

We saw Beetle get dragged through the dirt in just about every possible way. I disagree with most people's perspective of the hero treatment... I think the warehouse is plausible because seriously, how many heroes do you need to investigate a warehouse break-in? They probably felt he was over-reactive, this is his responsibility to track down, and they DID give it a shot.

But the part that was missing to me was his post mortum comeuppance. The part where Batman realized Ted was right and now he's DEAD because of his inaction, his distrust. The part where Jonn realizes he dismissed a colleague and friend, and it cost him his life.

That's the part I wanted to see, and that's what the cover implied we would see.

I don't mind that Blue Beetle is dead. I have faith it will serve the story well, and be emotionally impacting and etc. THey put too much work into his swan song for it not to. But I think the story was hurt by not having that final part of the arc, the regret where the heroes of the DC Universe find his body, realize what they've done, and are horrified by it.

That's what the cover gave me the expectation of, and it was not delivered on.


I really think you'll see this in OMAC Project, which takes up right where Countdown leaves off.

[Captain Jim]

I liked Countdown, and I think that most people who are saying "this is so out of character" were exaggerating.

Here's one thing I'll never get though:

Max has Ted bound and on his knees, and he's got a gun to his head. He asks Ted to join him or die. Ted refuses.

Now, if I'm in that situation...I JOIN!

-I'm not a meta-human, and Max honestly seems to like me, so I think I can take the offer seriously.
-I'm an extremely smart and competant individual, and at some point I'll be able to warn Batman about what's goint on. At the same time I'll be learning more about Checkmate, collecting intelligence.
-NO ONE ELSE KNOWS WHAT'S GOING ON, so my death is absolutely pointless. Yes, people will note a missing Ted Kord after a couple of days, and that will lead to a broader investigation. But there's no point in dying to do something when simply slipping or acting really odd will create the same effect.

It's not like Max said "sell your friends out or die" or "kill XYZ or die." "Join or die" at least gives you a chance to "renegotiate" the deal later on and betray Checkmate.

An interesting thought. Another possibility is that Ted may not have thought that Max would actually go this far, at least not immediately. Alas, we'll never know.

[Captain Jim]

Before that Ted says that the scarab gave Garrett his powers but he can't seem to get It to work for him. I think thier gonna say that It'll find a new host and that person will be the New Blue Beetle.

I have a hunch you may be right. It may even be Booster. (Pure speculation, btw.)

[Tom]

I have a hunch you may be right. It may even be Booster. (Pure speculation, btw.)
If the upshot is Beetle stays dead and Booster gets a character rehab, that would be almost exactly the opposite of what I would have liked to see. In my opinion, Booster is far more of a dead end than Ted was.

[bill4935]

1. On the whole, while it was well produced, I can't say I liked it. I guess I just prefer a less gritty, more upbeat version of superheroes. If I want to see a grim hopeless tale wherein all my favourite characters die, then I'll watch ER. Or read Sin City.

2. I for one will stick with JLA: Classified, knowing that Sue and Beetle are both safe in Hypertime.

3. Although, this being a comic book universe, there's still plenty of wiggle room for Ted to come back. We all know that what an editorial team says has no veracity in the face of economics or especially the dreaded "new creative team". If people will pay money to see Ted come back, then he'll come back. BB fans, take comfort in the one sacred rule in comics: "No one dies forever. Except Bucky." Q.V. Batman 638, for an example.

4. I see him waking up in a subway tunnel, with strange new Beetle Powers. BLAZAM!

[JeffreyWKramer]

If the upshot is Beetle stays dead and Booster gets a character rehab, that would be almost exactly the opposite of what I would have liked to see. In my opinion, Booster is far more of a dead end than Ted was.

Interestingly, Booster is the one who has been on the animated JL show. Given presence of the other Charlton characters on the show, I'm guessing this has something to do with rights/licensing of the "Blue Beetle" name and the history of that name having passed through various companies over the years.

[moebius]

It may be hard to believe, but there are people around who will just not give their word lightly- that would choose to go out that way rather than say something or associate themselves in any way with a group or idea that they hate. Even if it really didn't matter to the world in the long run, it would matter to them.

Well, I guess I'm no hero. If I'm asked to "Join or Die," I'd Join, and then betray at the earliest opportunity where I could get away with it!

I would think in terms of hero personalities, I would be much more Blue Beetle than Superman. Kneel Before Zod? Sure thing!

[Forsaken_One]

I'm not much of a hero either, but that's because I completely and utterly agree with Max. I do not want beings with enough power to destroy a quarter of Earth's population in less than a week running around free, regardless of how brightly colored their costumes are. Humanity should be first and foremost, not metahuman freaks, aliens with completly different thought processes, or magical nitwits who think regular humans are theirs to protect and/or do with as they will. This is a world that's been invaded by aliens at least once a year, often because of these so-called superheros. Not to mention the vast terrorist orginizations (like Kobra), terroist attacks on major populations (Jihad's attack on New York, several other instances), superhuman takeovers of militaristic countries (Black Adam), and completely destroyed cities (Coast City, several others around the world).

So when I really think about it... I'd be with Max.

[OffWork]

I just had a question that may have been answered already. Is the kryptonite that was stolen from the Kord Omniversal warehouse the same kryptonite that was supposed to be delivered to the Black Mask?

[Adam Crocker]

I'm not much of a hero either, but that's because I completely and utterly agree with Max. I do not want beings with enough power to destroy a quarter of Earth's population in less than a week running around free, regardless of how brightly colored their costumes are. Humanity should be first and foremost, not metahuman freaks, aliens with completly different thought processes, or magical nitwits who think regular humans are theirs to protect and/or do with as they will.

The hard thing to swallow about these anti-superhuman conspiracies logic is that they go after the heroes first and hardest, as opposed to...y'know, the super villains who actually use their powers to threaten humanity.

This is a world that's been invaded by aliens at least once a year, often because of these so-called superheros.

How so? Like the Invasion storyline where a consortium of aliens decides to attack Earth and enslave humanity because they think that superhumans might be a threat to their power? Like the Hyperclan storyline where the White Martians wanted to conquer Earth because they felt that they deserved to rule the world by virtue of their own superiority? Imperiex, a galactic despot who has always existed to conquer and just decided to attack Earth?

I'm not seeing your logic here.

Not to mention the vast terrorist orginizations (like Kobra)...

How is the Flash responsible for a terrorist organization that was motivated to conquer the world by a set of religious prophecies in India that one of a pair of siamese twins would allow the forces of Choas to triumph over order?

...terroist attacks on major populations (Jihad's attack on New York, several other instances)...

Got me there. I know nothing of this Jihad (be it a villain or group).

...superhuman takeovers of militaristic countries (Black Adam)...

One of the very rare exceptions in a universe where most of the heroes diligently stay out of politics and focus on stopping disasters or fighting supervillains. (Which is one of the reasons I can't buy Max's logic.)

...and completely destroyed cities (Coast City, several others around the world).

How did superheroes cause the attack on Coast City?

Of course given how many threats existed irregardless of superheroes but were stopped by them I really couldn't side with Max in any case.

[Forsaken_One]

The hard thing to swallow about these anti-superhuman conspiracies logic is that they go after the heroes first and hardest, as opposed to...y'know, the super villains who actually use their powers to threaten humanity.
Agreed. Of course the most powerful and effective supers do seem to be the superheros, if only because they seem to keep on winning. That's a good threat assessment method I think. But yes, the villian supers should be controled as much as the heros and neutrals, they're all threats.

Of course you know heros would try it interfere with any control and/or elimination system of metahuman criminals. :)

How so? Like the Invasion storyline where a consortium of aliens decides to attack Earth and enslave humanity because they think that superhumans might be a threat to their power? Like the Hyperclan storyline where the White Martians wanted to conquer Earth because they felt that they deserved to rule the world by virtue of their own superiority? Imperiex, a galactic despot who has always existed to conquer and just decided to attack Earth?

I'm not seeing your logic here.
I was thinking partially of Invasion, yes. Also the white martians wouldn't have been released without Martian Manhunter as I recall. There was the time Martian Manhunter birthed an evil being who almost enslaved the world. That one time Starro (right?) took over the supers in a takeover attempt of Earth, which wouldn't have suceded without supers. Lack of control on supers let cyborg Superman and Mongul focus on Earth as a takeover point. Not to mention any number of galactic level threats who only seem to consider Earth because one of their various nemesis is on the planet.

How is the Flash responsible for a terrorist organization that was motivated to conquer the world by a set of religious prophecies in India that one of a pair of siamese twins would allow the forces of Choas to triumph over order?
I... wasn't really thinking specifically of the Flash. Kobra seems to be an overarching terrorist orginization, in many different comics. I was thinking more that what little fighting's been done against it is rather inefficiant due to lack of coordination between supers, the fact that the leader is a super himself, and it's a metahuman-focused terrorist orginization. I wasn't blaming just heros for these problems, just saying they're part of the problem. As are all supers.

Got me there. I know nothing of this Jihad (be it a villain or group).
They were a metahuman terrorist orginization created by a third world islamic nation who appeared in Suicide Squad in the late 80s/early 90s. Just an example of tighter control needed.

One of the very rare exceptions in a universe where most of the heroes diligently stay out of politics and focus on stopping disasters or fighting supervillains. (Which is one of the reasons I can't buy Max's logic.)
I think the issue is that one cannot simply trust that someone with a power level of Superman is going to stay all nice and moral, nor that any Superman level or above threats are going to be equally good. Sure, we know it'll all turn out good because it's a comic book but how the hell would we know that if supers started appearing around the real world? I'd be an advocate of stronger control over supers of all stripes; to trust that this person given a magic ring that does anything he wills or whatever is going to be a "good person" and thus not hurt other people is idiocy. We're assuming that there will be no huge downturns in life that causes them to misuse this power, that they're going to remain well balanced individuals and have no history of mental illness, and so on. No, I would not want to trust that to chance.

How did superheroes cause the attack on Coast City?
Well there is that whole Cyborg Superman wanting revenge on Superman in a deranged belief that his condition was due to Superman thing. And thus choosing to attack Earth after taking over Superman's role, destroying Coast City to make it a new war world, etc. And, in some ways, Superman was responsible for his creation, as was the government for not having more failsafes in place to stop such a powerful being from escaping or even investigating Coast City themselves rather than leaving it to the newly ressurected Superman. I think that if controls on supers were tighter they could have done much better. Not more interesting in terms of reading, but more efficiant. The other one I was specifically thinking of is the city that gets nuked in the pages of JSA, seeing as it was nuked using uncontrolled tech (Rocket Reds) and heavily involved supers, including Kobra and, as I recall from a rather faulty memory, Vandal Savage.

Of course given how many threats existed irregardless of superheroes but were stopped by them I really couldn't side with Max in any case.
But that's just it; I'm not proposing that they be eliminated (though if they didn't agree to work with us obviously they should be). They should be controlled, maipulated, or outright forced to serve the greater good under our orders.

If we can't develop those means then we should create technology that can destroy them; the GL rings are tech, as is the new OMAC premiered in Countdown. There's Kryptonian, Thanagarian, Raanian, Amazonian, and Martian tech that's being kept from the general public by these "heros" that could be used to better fend off extraterrestrial and magical threats. Of course we're going to need these "superheros" if they keep us from gaining the technology to fight back! :D

I will grant you that this vision probably wouldn't make for very interesting stories though. But, theoretically, if I was in the DCU I'd be in favor of controlling or eliminating supers. I'd also be bloody terrified from having world-spanning catastrophies every six months. ;)

Make any sense?

Edit: Damn, I type too much.

[moebius]

I think the issue is that one cannot simply trust that someone with a power level of Superman is going to stay all nice and moral, nor that any Superman level or above threats are going to be equally good. Sure, we know it'll all turn out good because it's a comic book but how the hell would we know that if supers started appearing around the real world? I'd be an advocate of stronger control over supers of all stripes; to trust that this person given a magic ring that does anything he wills or whatever is going to be a "good person" and thus not hurt other people is idiocy. We're assuming that there will be no huge downturns in life that causes them to misuse this power, that they're going to remain well balanced individuals and have no history of mental illness, and so on. No, I would not want to trust that to chance.


Someone's been reading Supreme Power. :D

There was a quote in Powers back when their Superman went insane. "At power level 8 or above, you just pray they're going to be a good person."

[dee_dee24m]

Look, if they can bring Supergirl back, then they can bring Beetel back.

(just like Marvel's Magneto never f***** stays dead either)

[the Monitor]

4. I see him waking up in a subway tunnel, with strange new Beetle Powers. BLAZAM!


I love it! New ongoing called "The Power of Blazam!" :D

[Mia]

Quick question. When Beetle says that "we all love" Wonder Woman. Is he refering to all the men being 'in' love with her. Or everyone in the super hero community loving her in general? Just curious.

[pureclint]

The hard thing to swallow about these anti-superhuman conspiracies logic is that they go after the heroes first and hardest, as opposed to...y'know, the super villains who actually use their powers to threaten humanity.

Yes but Checkmate had files on EVERY meta, Super Villians included. Beetle just looked at the Heroes files because A he is a Hero and B those are HIS friends. Max was more worried about getting found out by the Heroes, and he should be they are the perpetual winners.

[Blueferret]

I didn't see this question asked earlier so here goes: In the scene with Calculator, who is between Firestorm (Ronnie version apparently) and Power Girl? I can't place the costume.

[Mon-el]

I didn't see this question asked earlier so here goes: In the scene with Calculator, who is between Firestorm (Ronnie version apparently) and Power Girl? I can't place the costume.


Breach

tenlittlecharacters

[Loren]

Sorry if this has already been asked in this thread, but when did Booster and Beetle learn that Batman was Bruce Wayne?

I remember a JLI issue where Ted and Bats went on an undercover mission, with Batman was posing as Bruce Wayne. But Ted thought that he was only disguised as Wayne, not that he was the real deal.

So when did they learn the truth? (And for that matter, when did Beetle become familiar with Alfred?)

Loren

[Gingold]

Sorry if this has already been asked in this thread, but when did Booster and Beetle learn that Batman was Bruce Wayne?

I remember a JLI issue where Ted and Bats went on an undercover mission, with Batman was posing as Bruce Wayne. But Ted thought that he was only disguised as Wayne, not that he was the real deal.

So when did they learn the truth? (And for that matter, when did Beetle become familiar with Alfred?)

Loren

This threw me a bit too. As a whole, I like the idea of the Leaguers being more open about their secret identities with each other, but they're starting to stretch credibility. Batman isn't sure if he can share his ID with Jim Gordon, but he tells Booster Gold? Beetle knowing doesn't bother me so much- he's smart enough to figure it out on his own (yet just dumb enough to share it with Booster), maybe he just confronted Bruce with it at one point- it would be nice if they explained it, though. Wayne Tech bought Kord Industries out at one point, so perhaps Ted and Bruce rubbed elbows socially , which could be how he became familiar with Alfred?

[Mia]

I think that Batman doesn't tell Gordon for his own protection.

Besides...I strongly believe that Gordon already knows.

[Kevinroc]

Sorry if this has already been asked in this thread, but when did Booster and Beetle learn that Batman was Bruce Wayne?

I remember a JLI issue where Ted and Bats went on an undercover mission, with Batman was posing as Bruce Wayne. But Ted thought that he was only disguised as Wayne, not that he was the real deal.

So when did they learn the truth? (And for that matter, when did Beetle become familiar with Alfred?)

Loren

Anyone that has ever worked in the Justice League or is/ was married to someone who worked in the Justice League knows the secret identity of every character or any character connected to any character who ever was in the League.

[Sean Whitmore]

I've refrained from commenting on this story, because I just didn't have the words to put my thoughts forth intelligently. But, lo and behold, somebody else did it for me. :) Paul O'Brien summed it up perfectly at the X-Axis (http://www.thexaxis.com/reviews.html).


It could of course be that a better explanation is coming in future chapters, but in this issue, the effect is to make DC's top heroes look like heartless bastards. The Blue Beetle's only sin is to be a C-list hero who's appeared in some comedy stories. He doesn't whine about his problems. He doesn't do anything annoying. He has plenty of evidence to back up what he's saying. And for his sins, Batman won't take his calls, and the Martian Manhunter actually kicks him out of the JLA base the moment he's out of his hospital bed. The story falls woefully short of justifying any of this, even on its own terms.

It also pisses on the Giffen/DeMatteis Justice League run, by retconning Maxwell Lord into an evil manipulator who deliberately set out to keep the Justice League ineffectual. Of course, a large part of the original stories was Lord's redemption arc, which isn't consistent with this interpretation at all. This is pick-and-mix continuity, where a whole swathe of stories are invoked, an ill-fitting explanation is shoved on top of them, and we're expected to politely ignore the fact that it doesn't bloody fit the very stories which we've just been expressly directed to. It's one thing to quietly ignore earlier stories; it's quite another to deliberately refer to them for the sole purpose of contradicting them.

The most depressing thing about Countdown is that, like Identity Crisis before it, it seems to see the fact that earlier stories were fun and upbeat as something which has to be explained away. Loudly insisting that you're above childish things isn't a sign of maturity. It's a sign of adolescence. And trying to explain happy stories in a grim universe only succeeds in tearing out their hearts, not "making them work." It doesn't have to be done that way.


SEAN

[Adam Crocker]

I'll address Forsaken One's main point at it's heart and then move onto the other points, due to my misunderstanding of his original point.


I think the issue is that one cannot simply trust that someone with a power level of Superman is going to stay all nice and moral, nor that any Superman level or above threats are going to be equally good. Sure, we know it'll all turn out good because it's a comic book but how the hell would we know that if supers started appearing around the real world?

Ah. Well I agree on that point, but there's the problem I suppose. It seemed to me that you were arguing for Max's point of view in the DC universe and using examples from that universe. So the argument didn't jive with me. I suppose the real world is another matter though your argument also confused me by failing to define what "tighter controls" mean here. (And in the context of agreeing w