Spider-Man 2004 Part 2: Sins Past and the Cult of Gwen at HeroRealm

[MadGoblin]

Part 2 of my "One for the Books" series looking at the year 2004 continues with Sins Past and the Cult of Gwen (http://www.herorealm.com/features/skb.htm), yet another look at probably the most controversial Spider-Man storyline in a decade. You'd think I would learn.

[leg end]

As usual, thought-provoking, interesting opinion. Thanks for a good read.

[The Wayner]

Although I never felt that Harry was a convincing menace like his badass old man (you don't suppose there's potential in a series of articles on Harry, do you?)

Oh, there's potential. Write'em, and I'm sure we'll read'em!

And you definitely need some cronies. Btw: Can I be one? :D

[Crimson]

I was away on holiday so any comments I make will be about the last two columns... k.

I got the TPBs for JMS run up to Sins Past and didn't notice someone else wrote some issues... interesting.

I agree the Ezekiel stuff was way too long but I did enjoy it.

One thing I don't understand about Sins Past is, Gwen would leave the kids with family/friends right? Then how come her uncle who lived in France never mentioned it when he came to America to see Parker and how did Norman get the kids?

"Terry "He he he - I want to needlessly kill off a long time supporting character by a mystery figure that I'll never bother to identify - that'll drive 'em nuts - he he he" Kavanaugh" What character did he kill off? I'm terrible with writers names, I'm just now being able to remember artists and writers etc.

Totally agree on Sins Remembered. I like Sins Past and have agreed with you on pretty much every point you've made on it... and I agree here, it sucks. Its a terrible follow up to Sins Past. I kinda wanted Sarah to stay around and give Peter something of a supporting cast but not now, hopefully the Avengers can give Peter somewhat of a supporting cast.

I seem to agree with you all the time... its annoying! lol

Great articles as always, can't wait for part 3.

[MadGoblin]

"Terry "He he he - I want to needlessly kill off a long time supporting character by a mystery figure that I'll never bother to identify - that'll drive 'em nuts - he he he" Kavanaugh"


He killed off Lance Bannon, Peter's photographer rival at the Daily Bugle. At that time, Bannon had been in the titles for 14 years. I'm not saying Bannon was the greatest of characters, but to just dispose of him in a storyline that is never resolved, that's just bad...

[MadGoblin]

Aaargh. Double post.

[Michael P]

"Terry "He he he - I want to needlessly kill off a long time supporting character by a mystery figure that I'll never bother to identify - that'll drive 'em nuts - he he he" Kavanaugh" What character did he kill off? I'm terrible with writers names, I'm just now being able to remember artists and writers etc. Bugle photog Lance Bannon, in the "FACADE" arc of Web of Spider-Man. Honestly, one of the worst comics stories I've ever read.

[Michael P]

I had the same problem as MadGoblin.

[Alan2099]

I'm with you on most of the points, madgoblin. The story was a bad idea to begin with and it was carried out horribly.

I still say this whole thing is a plot by Mysterio. Nobody can convince me otherwise.

[Kevinroc]

I do agree that Peter giving his blood to Sarah at the end wasn't the most well thought out idea. I understand the point that JMS was trying to make; that Peter's blood could be stronger than Norman's (MJ's line of "kick his ass" is what I base this off of).

If you're having trouble coming up with article ideas, I think you can focus on Spidey's interaction with the various Spider-Women. Peter and Jessica's membership in the New Avengers (and especially some of Peter's lines in #4) should provide some motivation for something like this.

I do agree about Sins Remembered.

In your "Shush" article, you should note how Scorpion claimed baby May was killed by Norman. I know it was just a little blurb (and Peter should have had more of a reaction) but I think this is what Marvel plans on going with. At least until some writer in the future reveals May actually IS being raised by Norman or something like that.

[Sean Whitmore]

Great article as usual, Madgob! Count me in for desperately wanting to read some Harry articles!


Betty Brant? We now know that while still married, she slept with both Peter Parker AND Flash Thompson


Presumably not at the same time? :) Seriously, though, I don't remember Peter and Betty ever sleeping together. When was this?


At least until some writer in the future reveals May actually IS being raised by Norman or something like that.


Nein! Kaine has Baby May, and is raising her to be a fine young lady in a small Tuscan village. Any other revelation will drive me to murderous rage once again...


SEAN

[MadGoblin]

Seriously, though, I don't remember Peter and Betty ever sleeping together. When was this?

Check out ASM #190. I missed it myself at first - and it was brought to my attention by a faithful reader. There's a couple of panels where Peter and Betty are together and then the next panel is Spidey swinging away with the narrative suggesting that what happened next remain private. Being the 70's and comics still being bought by kids in those days, that seemed to qualify as a slight of the hand reference to sex.

But the REAL question you should be asking, Sean, nay, we ALL should be asking - is when does the conclusion to Spider-Man: Shush come out? And will Electro ever be able to walk normally again? :D

[iwarrior]

I think people need to get over "Sins Past". It was a good story.

[Sean Whitmore]

But the REAL question you should be asking, Sean, nay, we ALL should be asking - is when does the conclusion to Spider-Man: Shush come out? And will Electro ever be able to walk normally again? :D


At this point, I'm just waiting for the final part of Millar's little strip to come out. :) I shot myself in the comedic foot by finishing my "Disassembled" before Bendis, and I don't wanna make that mistake again.


SEAN

[Huzzah!]

Sins past was a good story only if you could think 10 years down the line that when Mary Jane went into Normans office to slap him in the flashback, for whatever reason, she felt drawn in to his magnatism and slept with him. It ruined the best spiderman story, and for that reason alone it should be shunned.

And because JMS is moving to FF i will probably not read that title again. God only knows the Invisible Woman Mole man sex scene that will pop up.

The best article i ever read about this was i think on IGN. Required reading really

[jam]

Have just got a copy of "Sins Past" as a TP.

I just don't believe that Gwen would have slept with Norman Osborn.

And I get the feeling that JMS didn't believe it either, given how little attention or detail was given to the circumstances surrounding it. It was kind of like "this event needs to happen to drive the rest of the story, but it's not very believable, so let's just do it quickly and get it out of the way".

Did she ever sleep with Peter?

[DrDoomX]

Have just got a copy of "Sins Past" as a TP.

I just don't believe that Gwen would have slept with Norman Osborn.

And I get the feeling that JMS didn't believe it either, given how little attention or detail was given to the circumstances surrounding it. It was kind of like "this event needs to happen to drive the rest of the story, but it's not very believable, so let's just do it quickly and get it out of the way".

Did she ever sleep with Peter?

Its always been disputed if she did or not, according to sinspast no they never had sex, but on the other hand there are other indicators they may have...so its really an unknown thing but officially according to sins past they never did.

[Lorendiac]

Sins past was a good story only if you could think 10 years down the line that when Mary Jane went into Normans office to slap him in the flashback, for whatever reason, she felt drawn in to his magnatism and slept with him. It ruined the best spiderman story, and for that reason alone it should be shunned.

I'm pretty sure you meant to say "when Gwen went into Norman's office" unless I completely missed some sort of subtle hint that Norman was such a Casanova that he was scoring with everybody Peter's ever been in love with?

[Charagon]

Its always been disputed if she did or not, according to sinspast no they never had sex, but on the other hand there are other indicators they may have...so its really an unknown thing but officially according to sins past they never did.

According to Sin's Past, Gwen Stacy gave Norman Osborn a quicky because he was feeling down. Just put things into perspective.

[Lorendiac]

Part 2 of my "One for the Books" series looking at the year 2004 continues with Sins Past and the Cult of Gwen (http://www.herorealm.com/features/skb.htm), yet another look at probably the most controversial Spider-Man storyline in a decade. You'd think I would learn.

I don't usually spend much time on this Spider-Man forum, so I only noticed this thread today, and followed your link and tracked down your analysis of Sins Past. I appreciate it because I already posted yesterday a dire warning that I am in the process of writing a text parody of Sins Past, and now reading your discussion of it has given me a few extra ideas for things to poke fun at regarding the "internal logic" of the original story.

Now for a few random comments on specific bits and pieces of what you said!

Aunt May was really Peter's biological mother who conceived Peter during an ill-advised affair and gave him to Richard and Mary to raise because she couldn't stand the shame (come to think about it - I think that's been tried - and received with condemnation even more universal that the topic we're presently discussing);

I don't think I heard about this one - do you remember approximately when it was attempted in the regular titles?

Even though Lee and Romita tanked her character in later years by turning her into a crying Daddy's Girl, she still showed moments of pique and fire, such as when she slapped a campus protester silly for calling Peter a coward, and when she got in Aunt May's face and told the old bat what she had been needing to hear for years - that Peter was not a baby who needed his mommy figure coddling him.

To do Aunt May justice, for years Peter would slip away on some half-baked excuse or other, and if he came home late he'd find some other half-baked excuse for why he hadn't been more punctual. Or if she found one of his Spidey costumes he'd tell her he'd been planning to pull a gag on somebody by trying to make them think he was really Spider-Man, which would be an incredibly stupid thing for an "ordinary" human being to do -- as Flash Thompson once discovered when Doctor Doom took his disguise at face value, and as Aunt May had already "seen" Peter Parker painfully discover in a very unsuccessful fight with Dr. Octopus when he was so sick that his strength had been reduced to merely human levels. From Aunt May's perspective, his plan to try the same trick again could be taken as "proof" that he hadn't learned anything from experience!

Those things were not entirely consistent with the idea that Peter was a responsible young man who had good judgment, knew his own limits, and could be trusted to take care of himself.

However, many, many people disagreed with my conclusions (and the story itself)- and the disagreement essentially came down to two points:

1. This is a retcon that simply does not fit with established Spider-History, given the events as they originally unfolded and what we know about the characters, and/or

2. This sullies Gwen's memory and turns her from the love of Peter's life to a cheap slut who would sleep with the creepy dad of one of her friends. Ick - it feels dirty just talking about it.

I have considerable sympathy for the general feelings you summarized as 1 and 2, but I don't call Gwen, not even JMS's retconned version, a cheap slut. One foolish and immoral sexual encounter with a man she wasn't even in love with does not make her a slut. (Just as one stupid case of petty theft would not make her a kleptomaniac.) If she ran around having a long series of one-night stands with anybody and everybody, that would be a different matter.

Hell, he'd been lying to her and holding back from her one of the most important parts of his life - the fact that he was Spider-Man - to the point that he wasn't even going to tell her the truth when they got married (as he indicates in Amazing Spider-Man #100).

I think I've only read #100 straight through (in reprint) once in my life and I must have blocked out that part in my memory. Probably because it made absolutely no sense for him to think that would be a practical possibility in married life. I'll have to go back and reread to see exactly what he said.

When Spider-Fandom ignited I was thinking "Geez people, at least wait for the story to be over - the answers are coming," but unfortunately, they weren't, which left even supporters of the story feeling cheated.

I've certainly had days like that! Sometimes I read something that strikes me as an outrageous and gratuitous "retcon" (if only in the sense of heavily distorting everything we think we know about a character's personality, problem-solving abilities, integrity, etc.), or otherwise just makes no sense when taken on its own merits as a plot twist in a new story, even ignoring any contradictions with previous stories, and then, instead of dashing off a fiery letter to the editor, I take a deep breath and say to myself, "C'mon, Lorendiac, this is only the first issue of a four-parter (or whatever). Give the writer a break - provisionally assume he actually has a clue about what he's doing, and/or the editor does. Possibly by the time this series of unfortunate events is over, the key character's stupid behavior will have been rationalized somehow."

Months later . . . sometimes it has been, and sometimes it definitely hasn't been, because the earlier installments really were exactly what they appeared to be at the time: Bad Writing!

About all those Bridge scenes, back in the 1990s, didn't Roy Thomas write a Spidey/Dr. Strange teamup graphic novel called "The Way to Dusty Death" that began, I believe, with Spidey brooding at The Bridge when all of a sudden a beautiful women tries to commit suicide by jumping off of it, and this time Spidey manages to save her as he didn't save Gwen? A decade or so ago, maybe that almost seemed halfway original? ;)

[jam]

According to Sin's Past, Gwen Stacy gave Norman Osborn a quicky because he was feeling down. Just put things into perspective.

And just how likely would that have been? A quicky? Gwen? I doubt it!