Supergirl and the Kryptonite Asteroid

[Loren]

I sat down and read the whole first "Superman/Batman" arc today, and it reminded me of some questions I had about the asteroid, which I imagine were answered in the Supergirl arc.

Here's what the Superman Homepage (http://www.supermanhomepage.com/comics/2004-post-crisis-reviews/c-review-2004.php?topic=sup-bat9) said on the matter:

"[Zor-El] built a larger ship than the one Kal-El had been sent to Earth in and that the ship's navigational system was locked onto Kal's... Her ship, however, never left Krypton under its own power. It was buried within a chunk of rock and she was probably kept alive by the ship in some form of suspended animation."

So I take it that the ship's navigational system was what guided it to Earth, even though the ship never actually launched?

And since the ship was carried along by the asteroid, does that mean that it was not travelling under its own power? I don't see how the ship could guide the asteroid without producing its own thrust, but I'm also hesitant to believe that a small ship could move such a large body of rock very effectively.

I suppose the more direct question would be, did the asteroid travel to Earth the way a normal asteroid would (drifting through space) or did the ship speed it up or warp it through hyperspace along the way?

Thanks,
Loren

[Forsaken_One]

Keep in mind space has no friction. Constant velocity would mean constant acceleration. If you push off in one direction you will continue to go in that direction until you thrust in the opposite direction somehow, so a small amount of thrust (using whatever techno-babble explanation they want to give for interstellar travel) over a long period of time could get it to Earth eventually. Now then, if it was going in that direction anyway (as most of Krypton seems to be considering the amount of kryptonite that lands on Earth), well a small amount of thrust could guide it to intersect with Earth rather than just pass by quite easily.

As for the direct question... I have no clue. But considering the amount of Kryptonite that's landed on Earth in the DCU before her ship, which is rather a bit more than there should be, I think we can safely assume something, either from Kara's ship or Superman's, is getting it there.

[Loren]

Keep in mind space has no friction. Constant velocity would mean constant acceleration.

Hmm. You're right on the first count, but wrong on the second. Constant velocity means that there is no acceleration, that the speed is remaining constant. Constant acceleration means that the speed of the object is continually increasing.

If you push off in one direction you will continue to go in that direction until you thrust in the opposite direction somehow, so a small amount of thrust (using whatever techno-babble explanation they want to give for interstellar travel) over a long period of time could get it to Earth eventually. Now then, if it was going in that direction anyway (as most of Krypton seems to be considering the amount of kryptonite that lands on Earth), well a small amount of thrust could guide it to intersect with Earth rather than just pass by quite easily.

"That direction" would work easily enough if Kal's rocket, or the Earth, had a static location in the universe. But it's continually moving around the Sun, and our solar system is continually orbiting the galactic center. (And given the 'locked onto Kal's' description, it would have gone to Mars if Kal had landed there.

Krypton blew up at least 25 years ago. If Kara's ship was locked onto Kal's, but only targeted it with a small initial amount of thrust, it would be targeted for Kal's rocket as of 25 years ago, not the rocket's 2004 location.

BTW, according to Starman, Krypton blew up in 1938. And John Byrne established that Krypton was 50 light years away. Did Birthright change either of those?

As for the direct question... I have no clue. But considering the amount of Kryptonite that's landed on Earth in the DCU before her ship, which is rather a bit more than there should be, I think we can safely assume something, either from Kara's ship or Superman's, is getting it there.

Post-Crisis, there wasn't a lot of Kryptonite on Earth. There was one rock that stuck to the ship, and that was about it. It became Metallo's heart, and a chip of it was used to make the Kryptonite ring. Other Kryptonite tended to be artifically created or brought here intentionally (like Mongul did in 'Reign').

Loren

[Forsaken_One]

Hmm. You're right on the first count, but wrong on the second. Constant velocity means that there is no acceleration, that the speed is remaining constant. Constant acceleration means that the speed of the object is continually increasing.
Constant thrust equal constant acceleration. Sorry, I misspoke on that one. In me defense... I got nothing. :)

"That direction" would work easily enough if Kal's rocket, or the Earth, had a static location in the universe. But it's continually moving around the Sun, and our solar system is continually orbiting the galactic center. (And given the 'locked onto Kal's' description, it would have gone to Mars if Kal had landed there.
Perhaps "Locked onto Kal" actually means it's locked into the same planet and the computer automatically figured out the rotation of the Earth around the sun and accelerated to intersect? Or maybe the ship created a wormhole point just outside of the solar system and the ship used some kind of reactionless thrust from that point?

It's all speculation, obviously. I mean, we're dealing with Jeph Loeb here, he's never been known for caring about continuity or hard science. If the Starman timeline is correct then obviously it would have to have moved faster than light, not just drifted. But then we have Darkseid involved in it so we have the possibility of boom tubes. We have Superman's ship, and who knows what kind of faster-than-light tech that was supposed to have. And out there we have everyone from the Green Lantern Corps to Raan to the Martians to... well everyone who can move faster than light in one way or another. I think we can safely say light speed is not a barrier to the DCU in any way whatsoever.

Edit: Starman /= Sandman

[protege]

Hmm. You're right on the first count, but wrong on the second. Constant velocity means that there is no acceleration, that the speed is remaining constant. Constant acceleration means that the speed of the object is continually increasing.



"That direction" would work easily enough if Kal's rocket, or the Earth, had a static location in the universe. But it's continually moving around the Sun, and our solar system is continually orbiting the galactic center. (And given the 'locked onto Kal's' description, it would have gone to Mars if Kal had landed there.

Krypton blew up at least 25 years ago. If Kara's ship was locked onto Kal's, but only targeted it with a small initial amount of thrust, it would be targeted for Kal's rocket as of 25 years ago, not the rocket's 2004 location.

BTW, according to Starman, Krypton blew up in 1938. And John Byrne established that Krypton was 50 light years away. Did Birthright change either of those?



Post-Crisis, there wasn't a lot of Kryptonite on Earth. There was one rock that stuck to the ship, and that was about it. It became Metallo's heart, and a chip of it was used to make the Kryptonite ring. Other Kryptonite tended to be artifically created or brought here intentionally (like Mongul did in 'Reign').

Loren
1938? 50 light years away? When did kal crash on earth, and how old was he?

[Forsaken_One]

1938? 50 light years away? When did kal crash on earth, and how old was he?
As I recall he landed as a child, probably anywhere from newborn to two months old. And he's constantly early to mid thirties so right now probably 1970 or so. In ten years it'll probably be 1980.

[Loren]

1938? 50 light years away? When did kal crash on earth, and how old was he?

I believe the old official DC timeline said that Clark's ship crashed in Kansas 36 years ago. Under Byrne's version, he was merely an embryo when he was placed in the rocket, but emerged as an infant. The ship travelled faster than light, but he aged slowly.

After Birthright, Clark was an infant when he was placed in the rocket. If that affects the timing of the rocket's landing, it shouldn't be by more than a year or so.

Both Pre- and Post-Crisis, Krypton was part of Green Lantern Tomar Re's sector. Birthright apparently moved Krypton's location to the Andromeda Galaxy. So instead of being 50 light years away, Krypton was now 2.2 million light years away.

I'm not sure if Birthright changed how long ago Krypton blew up.

Loren

[Loren]

Constant thrust equal constant acceleration. Sorry, I misspoke on that one. In me defense... I got nothing. :)

S'no problem. :)

Perhaps "Locked onto Kal" actually means it's locked into the same planet and the computer automatically figured out the rotation of the Earth around the sun and accelerated to intersect?

Could be. That's certainly a better reason why a collision with Earth was inevitable (otherwise, just boom tube the spaceship into the sun and let the asteroid follow). But saying it's locked onto the ship when it's actually locked onto a planet seems like a very unclear explanation.

Or maybe the ship created a wormhole point just outside of the solar system and the ship used some kind of reactionless thrust from that point?

If Krypton is now supposed to be located 2.2 million light years away, then there's no way in heck that the asteroid is getting to Earth without some sort of sci-fi travel (like hyperspace or wormholes). Even if you assume that it could pass two galactic rims, it would mean that Kara was in suspended animation inside a giant Kryptonite rock for over two million years.

It would also mean that Kryptonite has a REALLY long radioactive half-life. Though that would help explain why Kryptonite doesn't hurt humans too quickly.

On further reflection, though, I'm not sure a wormhole is the best explanation. Wormholes create instantaneous portals from one point in space to another. There's no need for suspended animation, unless the asteroid/ship travelled really slow before and after it was in a wormhole. And Kara should have gotten to Earth a lot sooner.

It's all speculation, obviously. I mean, we're dealing with Jeph Loeb here, he's never been known for caring about continuity or hard science.

How true. It's actually why I'm curious; I'm trying to write something about Loeb's use of science in S/B. It looks like I might get a smaller piece about Waid's use of astronomy, too.

Loren

[Forsaken_One]

If Krypton is now supposed to be located 2.2 million light years away, then there's no way in heck that the asteroid is getting to Earth without some sort of sci-fi travel (like hyperspace or wormholes). Even if you assume that it could pass two galactic rims, it would mean that Kara was in suspended animation inside a giant Kryptonite rock for over two million years.
Well, if it's suspended animation, would it really matter how long she was in there? I've personally never seen a reason for Krypton to have been destroyed a few decades ago from the current time, especially if they put baby-Kal in and did the suspended animation thing as well. Which'd make sense if they expected Kara to be there to take care of him.

On further reflection, though, I'm not sure a wormhole is the best explanation. Wormholes create instantaneous portals from one point in space to another. There's no need for suspended animation, unless the asteroid/ship travelled really slow before and after it was in a wormhole. And Kara should have gotten to Earth a lot sooner.
Well there are any number of silly science fantasy reasons for that. You could have wormholes/hyperspace like Babylon 5 had, where it shrunk travel time considerably but time still passed. Or Warp Drive from Star Trek, which is just fast. Or Hyperdrive from Star Wars which makes the excuse of "can't move when a lot of gravity is around" for why it couldn't go into earth at Hyperspeed. Or it could be... hell, take your pick of silly science fiction faster-than-light travel methods. It's not like any of them actually make sense.

And of course this is all assuming Kara Zor-el is actually from Krypton. It's not like Loeb answered any of Batman's questions about Kara and where she came from. He just went "Oh, you remembered your mother's name. Okay, I trust you now."

[Loren]

Well, if it's suspended animation, would it really matter how long she was in there?

It wouldn't matter to Kara, but I'm skeptical of even Kryptonian technology being able to function continuously for several million years.

There's also an information gap if Kara's ship drifted for two million years. If Krypton exploded four million years ago, then anything Jor-El knew about Earth (which would've been impressive, given its location in another galaxy) would have been about the Earth of 4,000,000 B.C. He would've been sending his son to a planet of cavemen.

Well there are any number of silly science fantasy reasons for that. You could have wormholes/hyperspace like Babylon 5 had, where it shrunk travel time considerably but time still passed. Or Warp Drive from Star Trek, which is just fast. Or Hyperdrive from Star Wars which makes the excuse of "can't move when a lot of gravity is around" for why it couldn't go into earth at Hyperspeed. Or it could be... hell, take your pick of silly science fiction faster-than-light travel methods. It's not like any of them actually make sense.

I was under the impression that wormholes were based on actual scientific theory. I'll check on that.

And of course this is all assuming Kara Zor-el is actually from Krypton. It's not like Loeb answered any of Batman's questions about Kara and where she came from. He just went "Oh, you remembered your mother's name. Okay, I trust you now."

Yeah, I suppose Loeb could still go and pull the rug out from under us. But with the forthcoming Supergirl series, that'd be an awfully late cheat.

Loren

[PatrickG]

BTW, post-Birthright, Krypton was in the Andromeda galaxy.

No details on when or how Krypton blew up or how far it is from earth exactly, I think.

[Forsaken_One]

I was under the impression that wormholes were based on actual scientific theory. I'll check on that.
They are based on scientific theory, but science fiction has often warped their uses for themselves. Wormholes have been made such that you go into another dimention and fly in that for a bit, then come out of that dimention from the other end of the wormhole.

Think of it like asteroid feilds; asteroid feilds do exist, science admits that readily. However, in the real world thoes asteroids are millions of miles apart and they're only a "field" in the astrological sense of the word. But science fiction properties from Star Wars to Wing Commander have asteroid feilds that are so dense you can barely manuver a twenty-meter long ship though them, crashing into one another and such, and yet somehow staying together. That's not how asteroid feilds work, but that's how they're portrayed in popular culture and, as such, that's how most science fiction shows them. It's only the hard science fiction like Poul Anderson that tends to avoid that.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

I was under the impression that, Post-Brithright, Jor-El didn't know where he was sending Kal-El. Can anyone clear this up?

However, the only read that would be hard proof that Jor-El knew about Earth (The Kansas Sighting), could be possibly debunked by Birthright itself. A pity indeed, if this were true.

EDIT: or was that Jor-El knew about Earth, but didn't know if Kal would survive past the Asteroid field surrounding Krypton?

[Forsaken_One]

I was under the impression that, Post-Brithright, Jor-El didn't know where he was sending Kal-El. Can anyone clear this up?

However, the only read that would be hard proof that Jor-El knew about Earth (The Kansas Sighting), could be possibly debunked by Birthright itself. A pity indeed, if this were true.

EDIT: or was that Jor-El knew about Earth, but didn't know if Kal would survive past the Asteroid field surrounding Krypton?
I can't speak for Birthright but in Starman Jor-el was shown where Earth was and given a basic synopsis of it by Jack Knight.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

I can't speak for Birthright but in Starman Jor-el was shown where Earth was and given a basic synopsis of it by Jack Knight.

And Jack Knight is...?

In The Kansas Sighting, Jor-El actually sent probes to Earth, in order to examine it.

[Loren]

And Jack Knight is...?

In The Kansas Sighting, Jor-El actually sent probes to Earth, in order to examine it.

Jack Knight was the Starman of the late, great, James Robinson "Starman" series. One arc of the series had Jack go on a space voyage, and he ended up travelling back in time. He ended up on Krypton, met a young Jor-El, and shared with him information and coordinates for Earth.

Birthright has pretty much declared all of that null and void. "Kansas Sighting" must be out too, because Birthright contradicts it pretty strongly.

In Birthright, Krypton is in the Andromeda Galaxy, and at the start of the story, the Kryptonians haven't discovered any signs of intelligent life anywhere. In just the nick of time, Jor-El does a quick search and finds that Earth's sun and gravity are suitable for young Kal, so that's where he sends the ship. Based on the issue, Jor-El appeared to know absolutely nothing about Earth other than its size, the type of sun it has, and what it looked like from space. There's no indication that he knew Earth was inhabited.

I now have two posts up at Suspension of Disbelief (http://comicfacts.blogspot.com/) looking at the implied science presented in "Birthright," and the necessary consequences of those changes on the asteroid in Superman/Batman.

Loren

[Bored at 3:00AM]

It's been my experience that most things in Superman/Batman aren't really meant to stand up to much scrutiny. It's best to just oo and ah at the purty pictures and smile at the occasionally clever dialogue while ignoring the gigantic leaps of logic required for the stories to work.

[Puffy Treat]

"The Kansas Sighting" is best ignored.

1) It requires one to accept that in a world where Superman, Martian Manhunter, etc exist that people still doubt the existence of aliens.

2) It's really the "Cuddly Fluffy Alien Angel Thing" story J.M. tells over and over again. Not a good read.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

Jack Knight was the Starman of the late, great, James Robinson "Starman" series. One arc of the series had Jack go on a space voyage, and he ended up travelling back in time. He ended up on Krypton, met a young Jor-El, and shared with him information and coordinates for Earth.

Birthright has pretty much declared all of that null and void. "Kansas Sighting" must be out too, because Birthright contradicts it pretty strongly.

In Birthright, Krypton is in the Andromeda Galaxy, and at the start of the story, the Kryptonians haven't discovered any signs of intelligent life anywhere. In just the nick of time, Jor-El does a quick search and finds that Earth's sun and gravity are suitable for young Kal, so that's where he sends the ship. Based on the issue, Jor-El appeared to know absolutely nothing about Earth other than its size, the type of sun it has, and what it looked like from space. There's no indication that he knew Earth was inhabited.

I now have two posts up at Suspension of Disbelief (http://comicfacts.blogspot.com/) looking at the implied science presented in "Birthright," and the necessary consequences of those changes on the asteroid in Superman/Batman.

Loren

Thanks for the info and link. I had my doubts regarding "Kansas Sighting"'s validity after Birthright.