"Will he save the West...or ruin it?"

[MWGallaher]

You might recognize that as the tagline used by DC in promoting the memorable, but short-lived Bat Lash series; it was on the cover of his Showcase debut, and I believe it was used in house ads, too.

But what did they mean by that? Does it make sense to anybody here? I've been thinking about that today...I have a theory as to what they were trying to get across with that odd question, but first I'd like to find out if the Classics boarders had any reasonable interpretations.

[InfoBroker]

From the initial ads, I thought it meant he was more outlaw that good-guy. When I looked at the covers of the first few issues I modified that to mean the character had a clumsy-side, with the capability of really screwing things up. I figured James Garner's characterization of Bret Maverick had a lot to do with the modeling and influence.

-jb the "livin' on Jacks and Queens" ib :cool:

[Sir Tim Drake]

For that matter, Anthro's tagline was "It Could Be You!" How, exactly?

[DocL]

Dunno what it means exactly but that first Showcase appearance is one of my favorite comic books.

[Red Oak Kid]

I think that during this period at DC, the editors had a habit of taking taglines from then current movies, TV shows, commercials, etc and sticking them on the cover of their books or putting them in the titles of their stories in an effort to make their comics seem hip and up to date. Sometimes these phrases made sense in relation to the comic and sometimes they didn't.

Tho I can't prove it, I think the phrase "Will he save the west or ruin it?" is from an ad campaign for a movie. The movie may or may not have been a western. The word "west" may have been changed by DC to make it fit with the Bat Lash book.

I think it means that this character is an unknown quantity. He may be a hero or he may not be. Since it is in the form of a question, it makes you want to buy the book in order to see what the answer is.

In short, I think it means that the Bat Lash character is not the traditional hero/good guy.

But I'm pretty sure the phrase was lifted from a then current movie ad campaign.

[matewan1990]

You might recognize that as the tagline used by DC in promoting the memorable, but short-lived Bat Lash series; it was on the cover of his Showcase debut, and I believe it was used in house ads, too.

But what did they mean by that? Does it make sense to anybody here? I've been thinking about that today...I have a theory as to what they were trying to get across with that odd question, but first I'd like to find out if the Classics boarders had any reasonable interpretations.

The line was a tongue-in-cheek reference to Bat Lash's standing with the law. He was considered somewhat of an outlaw, but was, in reality, deep down, a pretty good guy. He didn't like violence and was more a lover than a fighter. But, he seemed to cause trouble where ever he went.
Bat Lash was one of the the better DCs from that period. Good writing by Sergio Aragones and great art by Nick Cardy. It was a western comic that was way ahead of its time.
This was a great and affordable series that every western fan should check out.

[MDG]

This was a great and affordable series that every western fan should check out.
That should read "every comics fan"--the series remains a great example of what "mainstream" comics can be.

I wouldn't be surprised if the choice of tagline was totaly independent of the envisioned series--as long as it was intriguing enough to get people to pick up an issue.

The "Who are they? What are they?" ads for Angel and Ape didn't really match the tone of that book either.

MDG

[MWGallaher]

The "Who are they? What are they?" ads for Angel and Ape didn't really match the tone of that book either.


Well, it looks like we have a theme going here, now: Bat Lash, Anthro, and Angel and the Ape all had somewhat baffling promotional taglines. Any others worth mentioning?

As for saving the west or ruining it, thanks for the interpretations. I suppose the concensus here is close to the mark. I, myself, was interpreting it on a metatextual level: that as a comic book genre, the Western seemed to be fading, at least at DC--their once-healthy sub-line was moribund; it had been seven months since they'd published a Western comic and that had been a reprint filler issue of Showcase.

Bat Lash was either going to be different enough to "save" the genre, or so different as to convince fans of traditional Western comics that the genre was dead.

[Cei-U!]

I wouldn't be surprised if the choice of tagline was totaly independent of the envisioned series--as long as it was intriguing enough to get people to pick up an issue.

As I recall, the initial ads for "Bat Lash" were created before the series was fully developed. The illo showed the silhouette of a hulking, shabby-looking cowboy with a repeating rifle, suggesting the series would be the comics equivalent of a Sergio Leone movie (immensely popular at the time). Instead, we got the vaguely Maverick-like Bat (I've also presumed they got his name by combing Bat Masterson with Lash LaRue) we all know and love.

Cei-U!
I summon the charming cad!

[MWGallaher]

Oh, yeah, I'd forgotten those teaser illustrations of Bat Lash! Those were drawn by Cardy, weren't they? Has anyone ever interviewed O'Neill or Aragones about the character's development?
Swamp Thing was another case where the character changed significantly between the first teasers and the first issue. Wrightson's design of the character in the teaser ads showed Swampy to be much bulkier--pot-bellied, as I recall!--than the fit and muscular swamp monster that eventually debuted in Swamp Thing #1.

[prince hal]

Someone with a better memory will recall what the tagline in the ads for Dolphin was.

There was once a half-page ad DC ran that showed a couple of puzzled-looking kids outside the DC office door, from behind which emanated (if memory serves) noises that implied heavy editorial lifting. I think the office window showed at least one figure silhouetted at the drawing board. The tag was "Big things are coming" or words to that effect.

I remeber at the time wondering what they were referring to, and now I can't remember if this was perhaps just before Giordano came over from Charlton in '68 or if it was before Kirby showed up. I do remember that there were ads that said "Kirby's Coming!" so amybe it was the former.

And what about the fuss over Infantino's "Strange Sports Stories?" The full-page ads heralded it as the most incredible advance in telling comic stories since Carl the Cro-Magnon first drew a buffalo hunt on a cave wall in France.

Well, maybe not that incredible, but the hyperbole flowed like beer at a frat party. I was definitiely let down when what they said would make for the continuous action of a movie turned out to be silhouettes of the action between panels. I liked it and all; it just wasn't the next best thing to sliced bread. ;)

[prince hal]

I, myself, was interpreting it on a metatextual level: that as a comic book genre, the Western seemed to be fading, at least at DC--their once-healthy sub-line was moribund; it had been seven months since they'd published a Western comic and that had been a reprint filler issue of Showcase.



And that issue ("TOP GUN," with a great Russ Heath cover!) had to have been the first in over 10 years at least, right? Unless you count TOMAHAWK, which I never really thought of as a Western, I think the last Western DC published was WESTERN COMICS, which ended with #85. It was a ten-center, so it had to be before '62.

Though BAT LASH went to the last roundup for a good long while, DC put out a good batch of Western reprints over the next few years as part of their various 25-cent lines. That was a great time to read comics because odf such attempts to mine the DC past and see what would sell.

Did we all enjoy GUNS OF THE DRAGON a few years ago, whihc featured a much older Bat (ina ddition to a bunch of other DC characers of all stripes) in action in China? I know I got a kick out of it.

[dan bailey]

And that issue ("TOP GUN," with a great Russ Heath cover!)

... which in turn was, i think, the last showcase to appear before dc decided, in its questionable wisdom, to start spinning off an issue's feature into its own title without bothering to wait to see the sales figures. as a result, we got the creeper, anthro, hawk & dove, bat lash & angel & the ape -- some good comics there, certainly, but none that struck me as even remotely successful in the marketplace, given their short lifespans.

i guess it took jonny double & dolphin (both of which i know i bought as a kid ... not sure about any of the others, except possibly for bat lash & anthro) to make the powers that be think twice. or, more likely, they saw that none of the aforementioned titles were selling worth crap.

after that, what was the last showcase "success story" from that era? the phantom stranger, evidently, judging from the invaluable mike's amazing world of dc comics site. i guess nightmaster, firehair, jason's quest & manhunter 2070 each got 3 tosses at the wall to see if they'd stick, with less than promising results.

[prince hal]

Yeah, I never quite understood the point of all that. Maybe those titles you mentioned were considered surefire hits that would simply take off after a "pilot' issue was published. That era reminds me a bit of the DC Implosion of the late 70s. Several old favorites, like HAWKMAN and THE ATOM were cancelled, GREEN LANTERN only avoided the same fate with the desperation addition of GA, which kept it alive for another 17 issues, the Legion soon lost ADVENTURE, WONDER WOMAN went through that era's version of a reboot every few months, and most if not all of the new wave stuff only lasted 6 issues or so.

That was the twilight of the Silver Age, maybe even the first hour after it, a time when DC tried hard to change the style that had served them so well but took heavy casualties. On the horizon lay rapid-fire price increases, the rise of horror comics, and the arrival of Jack Kirby.

[dan bailey]

That was the twilight of the Silver Age, maybe even the first hour after it, a time when DC tried hard to change the style that had served them so well but took heavy casualties.

one thing that really surprised me upon looking at the showcase cover gallery from those years was how early the nightmaster issues came out. the first one, showcase 82, is date 5/69 & so must've come out very early that year. i hadn't realized that dc was trying its hand at sword & sorcery -- a genre i very much associate with the beginning of the bronze age -- that early. conan, for marvel, was a full 1 1/2 years off.

judging from the cover art, i guess dc was sort of hedging its bet by outfitting the character like a superhero, complete with full-body suit, cowl & cape.

[Red Oak Kid]

There was once a half-page ad DC ran that showed a couple of puzzled-looking kids outside the DC office door, from behind which emanated (if memory serves) noises that implied heavy editorial lifting. I think the office window showed at least one figure silhouetted at the drawing board. The tag was "Big things are coming" or words to that effect.

I remeber at the time wondering what they were referring to, and now I can't remember if this was perhaps just before Giordano came over from Charlton in '68 or if it was before Kirby showed up. I do remember that there were ads that said "Kirby's Coming!" so amybe it was the former.
;)

I've got that ad with the kids outside the editorial office door. I'll try to find it and see the date it appeared.

But my memory is this ad preceded the Kirby is Coming ads by several years.

I think the office door ad signaled the arrival of Infantino as Editorial director and the editorial shakeup that followed. Some old time editors OUT and Giordano and Orlando IN.

If I can find the ad, I'll post a scan of it and see if we can guess who drew it.

[dan bailey]

I've got that ad with the kids outside the editorial office door. I'll try to find it and see the date it appeared.

that should be interesting. i'm guessing maybe late '69 or early '70 because i was remember the ad quite vividly & was reading a fair amount of dcs then, & by the time kirby moved over that wasn't the case.

[Red Oak Kid]

Bat Lash Dolphin Ad (http://hometown.aol.com/macredoak/myhomepage/dollash.jpg?mtbrand=AOL_US)

OK, I got lucky and found it without too much trouble.

I found one in Bob Hope 108, cover dated Jan 1967. So this book would have been on the stands as early as November of 1966. And it may have run for several months so there could be earlier and/or later examples.

In a later post, Prince Hal correctly points out that Bob Hope 108 was published in the latter part of 1967. The small print says "Dec-Jan 1967". But Mike's Amazing World of DC Time Machine confirms that it is Dec of 1967 so the two ads below are only a month or two apart.

Any guesses who the artist may have been?

There is also a full page ad for Teen Beat showing a beatnik with a sandwich board under the blurb; BAN GLOOM!

It appears to be by the same artist. Jack Sparling maybe.

And the beatnik is wearing sandals held on by rope.

I found another ad of this nature. It is in Jerry Lewis 104 from Jan of 1968.

At least they spelled "Editorial" correctly on this one.

Bat Lash Dolphin Ad (http://hometown.aol.com/macredoak/myhomepage/dollash.jpg?mtbrand=AOL_US)

[Scott Shaw!]

I had lunch with Sergio Aragonés today, and afterwards, while we were hanging around the local Toys 'R' Us, I asked him about the "teaser" campaign for BAT LASH.

Sergio recalls that the ad featuring the scruffy-looking silhouette was the work of Joe Orlando. (He also did that TEEN BEAT beatnik ad.) Sergio said that DC really didn't know what they wanted the character to be, and had approached Sheldon Mayer (who wasn't interested) before they came to him. (I think that Bat Lash is equal parts Maverick and Sergio, both charming ladies men.)

(Of course, his name was the direct inspiration for cartoonist Batton Lash's moniker.)

He also said that, a few years later, that Joe Orlando was going to cancel WEIRD WESTERN TALES until Sergio convinced him the title was too good to waste; although he had nothing to do with the character's creation, this led to the creation of Jonah Hex.

Aloha,

Scott!

[MWGallaher]

Wow! Thanks, Scott! I didn't dream that anyone would ask Sergio about that today! Now that I think about it, that teaser art does seem more like Orlando than Cardy.

Here's hoping that DC's upcoming Jonah Hex is enough of a hit that they'll think about asking Aragones, Evanier, and Spiegle do a new Bat Lash series...

[Sir Tim Drake]

(Of course, his name was the direct inspiration for cartoonist Batton Lash's moniker.)

*doubletake* I thought that was his real name!

[prince hal]

I must have conflated the two ads, but for the life of me, I can't really remember seeing the second one.

That BOB HOPE 108 would have appeared in late 67, actually, which pegs it as done in anticipation of the arrival of Giordano et al and Carmine's promotion.

[Mark Evanier]

The ad from Bob Hope where they're slamming the door on the kids was drawn by Carmine Infantino.

The other ad is bizarre. I'm not sure who drew it but it's none of the known DC artists of the time. It looks a little like Tommy Nicolosi, who was then doing production work in the art department.

I don't think either was intended to promote a specific new product.

[T GUy]

ROK: I found another ad of this nature. It is in Jerry Lewis 104 from Jan of 1968. That's the 'Do not distoib' ad. The chap at the drawing board with the eyeshade looks like a portrait of Mike Sekowsky (from what I recall of a photo I saw of Sekowsky the other day). I could believe this ad is by Sekowsky. But, then Sergio recalls that the ad featuring the scruffy-looking silhouette was the work of Joe Orlando (says Scott! Shaw), while I was thinking Infantino himself.

[MWGallaher]

So, were "New Things" coming from DC? Let's see, 1968 brought to the stands:
ENEMY ACE in Star-Spangled War Stories
THE CREEPER
SECRET SIX
ANTHRO
BAT LASH
CAPTAIN ACTION
HAWK & DOVE
NEW HUNTED METAL MEN
BROTHER POWER THE GEEK
ANGEL AND THE APE
DIANA PRINCE: WONDER WOMAN
THE "ORIGINAL" BLACKHAWK
JOHNNY PERIL in The Unexpected

That's an average of more than one new or radically-revamped ongoing feature every month. That seems like a big burst of freshness by the standards of the time, and I think that's what the ads were "promoting": lots of new stuff.

[MWGallaher]

i guess it took jonny double & dolphin (both of which i know i bought as a kid ... not sure about any of the others, except possibly for bat lash & anthro) to make the powers that be think twice. or, more likely, they saw that none of the aforementioned titles were selling worth crap.


I don't think they ever had any illusion that Dolphin would launch from SHOWCASE into her own series. My theory, which I posted a year or so ago on one of the CBR forums, is that the Dolphin installment was actually prepared as a series for one of DC's romance comics, and then axed when the editors shied away from introducing a fantasy serial. Rather than write off the story, they recycled it in a very half-hearted issue of SHOWCASE--I mean, heck, they didn't even bother to expand Pike's story into a full issue. Then they cruelly teased the heck out of superhero fans and suckered them into buying an unresolved, never-to-be-continued, non-superhero short installment and an Aqualad reprint.

[T GUy]

Scott! Shaw re Sergio Aragones: He also said that, a few years later, that Joe Orlando was going to cancel WEIRD WESTERN TALES until Sergio convinced him the title was too good to waste; although he had nothing to do with the character's creation, this led to the creation of Jonah Hex. Quick piece of pedantry:you mean All-Star Western rather than Weird Western Tales (though, yes, it makes little difference; same series re-titled, perhaps due to the success of Weird War Tales).

[InfoBroker]

...and Later Weird Worlds and Weird Mystery Tales. I guess everything was weird in those days at DC.

-jb the ib :cool:

[InfoBroker]

The "do not Disturb" ad was a hodge-podge looking piece to me. I couldn't place the artist, but I thought the figure at the drawing table, and the table itself had a touch Joe Kubert. But the poses don't make any sense, and the other characters outside the hall especially are something and somebody else's handiwork. maybe Joe did some touchup.

Thanks Mark, for the additional info on production artist identity at DC. I was always curious about the production staff at the various comic shops throughout the 60s and early 70s.

It seems like Marvel went from near-nonexsistant to a modest but talented staff that included Herb Trimpe, Marie Serverin, John Verpoorten, and John Romita being mentioned in the Bullpen Pages, letters columns and elsewhere. Add to that the letterers and other colorists.

DC always seemed to have a well staffed production department, and things never seemed rushed. But there is little to no mention of who worked there or when. At least I have not come across anything of detail in my readings.

In interviews, Scott McCloud talks of his time there, pre-ZOT! of course. But beyond that, I know almost nothing about DC's staff, and about the same for other companies like Tower, Charlton, Gold Key, Archie, and ACG. I'm thinking Dick Giordano was doing a lot of fix-ups work, both before and during his editorial period at Charlton and I'm sure others who happened to be in the offices playing ping pong or sitting in that wide open office around that big round editors table. It's too bad there arn't any pictures of that place when it was full of people and things were humming...

I'm also thinking Wally Wood was watching things at Tower, especially in the early days. I'm sure they had more, probably full and part timers.

But that is all guesswork and speculations...

-jb the pondering ib :cool:

[Red Oak Kid]

...and Later Weird Worlds and Weird Mystery Tales. I guess everything was weird in those days at DC.

-jb the ib :cool:

Too bad their wasn't a Weird Love Stories.

Bat Lash, Dolphin Ad (http://hometown.aol.com/macredoak/myhomepage/dollash.jpg?mtbrand=AOL_US)

[Cei-U!]

I guess everything was weird in those days at DC.

Including, briefly, Adventure Comics (see illo).

Cei-U!
I summon the weird lightning!

[InfoBroker]

I remember those, and my immediate reaction:

"Does DC think that putting Weird on everything will boost sales or something?
Like Gorrillas and "1st DC issue" banners?"

Besides, who needs weird, when you have a beautiful Jim Aparo cover?

-jb the ib :cool:

[MWGallaher]

Besides, who needs weird, when you have a beautiful Jim Aparo cover?

One of my favorite Aparo covers--I've got this one on a sweatshirt!...Man, the stuff Jim did for Joe Orlando was always magnificent!

[InfoBroker]

Or his Detective Batmans for Archie Goodwin, or Aqua-man and all those really neat Thane of Bagorths, Ghostly Tales, Dr. Graves, and (single)Prankster for Dick Giordano.

-jb the ib :cool:

[MDG]

"Does DC think that putting Weird on everything will boost sales or something?
Like Gorrillas and "1st DC issue" banners?"...
-jb the ib :cool:

I thought that at the time the comics code had recently been loosened to allow the word "Weird" in book titles, but the copies of the code I found on-line don't mention this.

MDG

[Red Oak Kid]

I thought that at the time the comics code had recently been loosened to allow the word "Weird" in book titles, but the copies of the code I found on-line don't mention this.

MDG

You are right. The word "weird" had been banned from titles when the CC was begun, but when the code was relaxed in the early 70s, the word was no longer taboo.

Tho this doesn't entirely explain why DC started using it everywhere.

[InfoBroker]

My first reading of the Comics Code was in that Cartoonist & Illustrators Course that I got for Christmas 1967-68. At that time I had no detailed knowledge of Wertham, Senate Investigations or even EC comics. So I wasn't aware of the politics, economics and other evil seductions that were being perpetrated in the name of protecting the innocent.

So to my naive sensibilities, the rules of the code seemed to cover a broad range of conduct. Some seemed grounded in common sense and good taste, some odd in their detailings on how police and authority figures would be hangled, and in others, dare I say it, just plain weird

In the late 60s, fandom was rumbling about the limitations of the code, but as Roy Thomas pointed out in Alter Ego #2, while some of their concerns were legitimate, their knowledge of what the code did and didn't allow was lacking. He did fandom the favor of publishing the entire code as it existed at the time. This was 1969-70 and would have been the original code. It was exactly like the one I had read two years earlier, and I think this one (http://www.comics.dm.net/codetext.htm) is intact and matches what I remember reading then.

I don't remember weird as a specific taboo word, but given the articles of General Standards Part B, I could see how the word Weird in a title might get banned. Especially if you apply articles B.2 and B.3 to the interpretation, and also linked some of the particular published works that used that word as part of their title in the past, and the type of material it was thus associated with.

By my memory recount:

Weird War Tales was first - comig out circa 1971-2
All Star Western became Weird Western Tales also 1971-72 timeframe but after War.
Weird Worlds featuring John Carter of Mars came out in 1972, when DC shifted back to a 36 page format, and they needed to moved backup material from Tazan and Korak somewhere.
Weird Mystery Tales started in the 1972-73 timeframe.
Weird Adventure was a late 1973 entry.

I still think it was a minor element of "branding" not unlike using "Family" a few years later.

Though I'm not sure which was really the weirder...

jb the lurid, unsavory and gruesome ib :cool:

[Scott Shaw!]

The Comics Code Authority specifically singled out EC Comics -- arguably, the company that paved the way for the early-50s glut of supposedly "objectional" material -- for harrassment. The "weird" stipulation was aimed at two of their non-horror titles, WEIRD SCIENCE and WEIRD FANTASY.

Aloha,

Scott!

[InfoBroker]

But was "weird" a specifically mentioned taboo word like crime, horror and terror?

It might not have gotten transcribed in the "Les Daniels" sourced version that is online. That's why I referenced other sources, that would have been published at the time the original code was still enforced. Maybe someone has access to them.

I agree that EC was definitely the major target, and with my more enlightened viewpoint, it is easy to realize that a lot of the provisions of the code are worded specifically to make Bill Gaines and EC the scapegoat and sacrificial lamb for the industry.

- jb the ib :cool:

[Slam_Bradley]

This discussion led me to dig out my copy of Comic Book Artist #1. I read through the Carmine Infantino and the Joe Orlando interviews last night.

Re: the Bat Lash ad. According to Orlando they weren't set on what direction Bat Lash was going to take at the time the ad was published. As far as I can glean from the interviews, Showcase # 76 underwent significant re-working when Infantino didn't like the original Shelly Mayer story. It seems they were just trying to evoke the feel of the Leone spaghetti westerns that were so popular at the time.

Re: the use of the word Weird. According to Orlando, Infantino thought it sold comics. He was the boss. No weirder than Schwartz and weeping gorillas.

I don't find any discussion of the other ads that have been mentioned. Infantino does make it clear in his interview that HE recognized they were losing out to Marvel and that he was looking to encourage innovation, hoping to find something that would really sell. I think that's why we see so much experimentation at the time. And to some degree he succeeded, because according to Orlando, the new mystery books were outselling most of the super-hero books at the time.