What age do you talk to kids about sexuality? [Archive]

Solaris

03-24-2005, 08:15 PM

Core said something that made me wonder in the Postcards from Pinchy thread.

Most people on this board support gay marraige and I have never seen a community as diverse as this one. I am trying to raise my children to respect gay relationships the same as they would straight relationships (don't tell the Pope).

My best friend Jon is Uncle Jon to my children and is always welcome in my home. When he finds someone worth spending his life with, that man will also be welcome in my home and my kids will be encouraged to call him uncle as well.

Truth be told, however, my five year old son doesn't know gay or straight any more than he knows quantum physics.

My gut feeling is to talk about it when they ask, but that a "special talk" is unnecessary and with a five year old, certainly premature.

What are anyone elses thoughts?

If you are opposed to homosexuality or gay marraige, please don't respond in this thread. I don't want this to be contentious or nasty.

I had *THE* talk w/them, basic explanation of sex, at around 10. I figured, if back in my day a 12 yr. old classmate of mine got pregnant, ten would definitely be a good age to have the talk. Besides, a fair amount of girls have started menstruating, or get close to it, by age 10. Any questions they had during the talk were fair game to be answered, too. I tried to explain things at a level they could grasp, w/out holding back key info. I definitely didn't let myself get embarassed by talking about it, because kids pick up on that really fast, and get uncomfortable talking it over w/you. The way I did the latter was to think a lot about it ahead of time, in terms of "natural function and natural part of life, and something I definitely want them to have good info on."

IIRC, Meg had a classmate who'd suffered sexual abuse (male/male), and she asked me about it *before* age 10. She was truly bewildered by the idea, and didn't understand how it could work. I explained things as frankly as I could, while trying to keep it on her level of comprehension. Part of that involved explaining the difference between molestation (adult to child) and consensual sex between adults---and that it's fine for adults to have same-sex relationships, if that's what they want, so long as both parties are adult and consenting.

Bottom line was, I answered any questions that came up before age 10 as frankly as possible (geared to their comprehension level), because these are my kids, and if they are willing to come to me with a question, it's important to me that they get a good answer, and learn that it's okay to ask me things. But I aimed for age 10 for the main talk. If I were you, I'd simply and clearly include homosexuality as well as heterosexuality, as both being normal states, at around that age. Five is definitely too young, IMO, to bring up any kind of sex talk from your end... though if something causes a question in *their* minds, it's always best to answer it, whatever their age. If the question catches you unprepared, then you can simply tell them that you want to think about their question for a while, in order to give them the very best answer you can... but I wouldn't make the kid wait until the next day for it... at worst, I wouldn't make 'em wait more than a couple of hours. (I say that because Meg brought up the abuse question while I was driving in rush hour traffic on the interstate---not the best place to be able to concentrate fully on such things. I managed it, but it would've been a bit easier if I'd waited till we got home, *then* answered it! Heh.) If you make 'em wait too long, they may feel like you are trying to avoid such questions.

Hope that helps. :)

DarkBlade

03-24-2005, 08:16 PM

For now, I'd just point out things like some folks have two mommies or two daddies, that sort of thing.

Naldo

03-24-2005, 08:41 PM

Wait till they ask.

Sam A. Robrin

03-24-2005, 08:45 PM

It's weird, but when I was six (this would have been the last year of the Eisenhower administration), I read "The House That Jack Built"--which contains the lines: "This is the priest all shaven and shorn/ Who married the man all tattered and torn . . ." From that, I inferred that men could marry each other, even though I'd never seen it first-hand. From then on, it never seemed at all strange to me.

Ayo

03-24-2005, 08:47 PM

Wait till they ask.

Yeah, but I kinda agree with introducing the concept slowly...subtlely, before they ask.

Like the "some people have two mommies/two daddies" thing.

My feeling is that most kids first learn about homosexuality in a very negative context, and it's very hard to unlearn negative first impressions. You want to beat the bad influences to the punch.

west3man

03-25-2005, 03:07 AM

My Mom had "the talk" with me when I was eight years old. I wasn't asking about sex, but considering how much earlier kids are doing it/exposed to it these days, I think it was a good choice. Hell, *I* was doing sexual things for years before she had that talk with me... not SEX, you understand. Just ... stuff.

Some people don't ask questions because they THINK they know the answers, but that miseducation could cause problems. I suggest choosing an age or ages to disseminate bits o' information, if they haven't started asking questions, before then. My parents kinda did it in stages. They weren't together, anymore, but they kinda coordinated things. She told me some stuff when I was eight. He told me some more stuff when I was about ten.

A year or so after that I remember my step-father asking if I needed condoms and unfolding a ton of'em. It was kinda weird, but it was the right thing to do in MY CASE... cuz I had every intention of gettin' some nooky as soon as possible (whether I was ready for that or not). My mom and I were at a store and without warning, just as we reached the register, she grabbed a box of condoms and said, "You need these," and tossed them on the conveyor belt. Embarrassed the SHIT out of me, but these things drilled something into my head. IF YOU'RE GONNA DO IT, WEAR A CONDOM! When the opportunities for sex presented themselves, as much as I wanted it, I wouldn't do it without a condom. That's some good brain-washing.

The Dosadi Experiment

03-25-2005, 03:39 AM

My Mom had "the talk" with me when I was eight years old. I wasn't asking about sex, but considering how much earlier kids are doing it/exposed to it these days, I think it was a good choice. Hell, *I* was doing sexual things for years before she had that talk with me... not SEX, you understand. Just ... stuff.

I don't really believe this.

Masturbation is common for kids who haven't physically and mentally reached puberty yet, but for them the act isn't sexual, neither was playing doctor at the age of 4, or comparing your genitalia with those of some other kid when you were 6.

A year or so after that I remember my step-father asking if I needed condoms and unfolding a ton of'em. It was kinda weird, but it was the right thing to do in MY CASE... cuz I had every intention of gettin' some nooky as soon as possible (whether I was ready for that or not). My mom and I were at a store and without warning, just as we reached the register, she grabbed a box of condoms and said, "You need these," and tossed them on the conveyor belt. Embarrassed the SHIT out of me, but these things drilled something into my head. IF YOU'RE GONNA DO IT, WEAR A CONDOM! When the opportunities for sex presented themselves, as much as I wanted it, I wouldn't do it without a condom. That's some good brain-washing.

Age 11 and you're already planning on getting nooky, because after all, during the first year of puberty, you've already transformed into a ferocious sexual predator out for experiences, and naturally your parents bought you condoms... :rolleyes:

When I was 11 I was writing my second novel, while cruising the French Riviera, dining on lobster and getting drunk on fine red wine.

west3man

03-25-2005, 03:47 AM

I don't really believe this.

Masturbation is common for kids who haven't physically and mentally reached puberty yet, but for them the act isn't sexual, neither was playing doctor at the age of 4, or comparing your genitalia with those of some other kid when you were 6.

Age 11 and you're already planning on getting nooky, because after all, during the first year of puberty, you've already transformed into a ferocious sexual predator out for experiences, and naturally your parents bought you condoms... :rolleyes:

When I was 11 I was writing my second novel, while cruising the French Riviera, dining on lobster and getting drunk on fine red wine. Ha!

So, you're calling me a liar?! Oh man. I've had some run-ins with folks around here. Sometimes I remember the names and sometimes I don't. When I encounter them later, I often don't remember if we've had issues or not (unless it's someone I'm more familiar with).

I don't remember anything about you. Your name is familiar, but that's about it. So, to me, this is kinda like my first impression of you. You don't know me, but you're somehow able to tell ME what I did or did not do what I was a child. Very interesting.

Believe what you want to. I really don't care all that much. It's the fact that you had the balls to call me a liar that I do care about.

I will ask you this much, though: What makes you think you're even IMPORTANT ENOUGH for me to have to lie to you about ANYTHING?

venuscameback

03-25-2005, 03:50 AM

At five, he's still too young

five is too young for any specifics, but if you find yourself in a situation that's appropriate, why not say something like "some girls are like Cinderella, waiting for the handsome prince to come along; and some girls are waiting for a beautiful princess. and some of the handsome princes aren't looking for Cinderella, they're looking for another handsome prince. and when you get older you'll know what you're looking for, and either of those is fine with me"

okay that's long-winded and you prob only want to mention who one gender's looking for, depending on if you're talking to a girl or a boy, to simplify it

but i think something along those lines just brings in a gnetle awareness of the diversity of life without saying too much, and helping avoid the early negative imprinting others have mentioned.

i think that as soon as a child is old enough to understand about boys and girls in general - say they have a playground boy/girlfriend - it's early enough to mention, briefly, that while they have a schoolyard girlfriend, sometimes other boys will grow up to want another boy.

ian/dlw

The Dosadi Experiment

03-25-2005, 04:08 AM

I don't remember anything about you. Your name is familiar, but that's about it. So, to me, this is kinda like my first impression of you. You don't know me, but you're somehow able to tell ME what I did or did not do what I was a child. Very interesting.

Poor little old you, if you could read you'd find that your defensive attitude isn't justified, and your over-the-top reaction a bothersome manner to avoid the discussion.

I said that I didn't believe you, and I gave you my reasons why I didn't believe you. I never said that I claimed to know what you did or didn't do, I simply said that I didn't believe what you said.

So shove that defensive attitude somewhere warm and cozy, because the whole "Oh, so now you're a mind-reader"-defense doesn't work here.

Believe what you want to. I really don't care all that much. It's the fact that you had the balls to call me a liar that I do care about.

I will ask you this much, though: What makes you think you're even IMPORTANT ENOUGH for me to have to lie to you about ANYTHING?

My, my, my, and now we're shouting. Let's see if we can answer your question looking at an age-old phenomenon, a clear and distinct pattern of behaviour that we see all around us, in everyday life, and which manifests itself in groups fairly regularly.

You're bragging, because by creating a story in which you paint an image of yourself that follows the pattern of a fairly admirable young male. Sexual activity at a young age, after all, men, and the majority of society, see themselves as the dominant, more ambitious factor in sexual relations. It's desirable for young men to be sexually active, they can brag about it and gain more status within their group.

Men bragging about their sexual escapades and activities is something that we can see throughout the ages, and age-groups. As society lends a certain status to the succes of the sexual predator, which is incidentally how men choose to portray themselves in society as a whole. A man who has had intercourse with a multitude of females can be considered quite macho, and fullfilling the role of an admirable man on that particular level. This image of sexual predator of course ties back into evolutionary psychology, where men are also portrayed as hunters, those who take the initiative.

The question isn't really about me, it's more about you. Why exactly should we believe your claims? Why should we blindly accept what you say, when it is known to all of us that bragging about sexual activity is a fairly common practice amongst males? Why shouldn't we take your claims and hold them to the light of modern adolescent psychology and sexual psychology?

because you say so? What makes you think that you're so important that we all fawn and fall before you and accept without question every claim made by you?

And let's not forget that your question targets me specifically, when the original statement you made was adressed to all who could read it.

west3man

03-25-2005, 04:20 AM

Poor little old you, if you could read you'd find that your defensive attitude isn't justified, and your over-the-top reaction a bothersome manner to avoid the discussion.

I said that I didn't believe you, and I gave you my reasons why I didn't believe you. I never said that I claimed to know what you did or didn't do, I simply said that I didn't believe what you said. That's double-talk. I said what happened. You said you didn't believe me. That's the same as saying it didn't happen, which is the same as saying that I'm lying (which is distinct from simply being misinformed about some fact, as this situation has to do with one's own life experiences).

My, my, my, and now we're shouting. As I've said before, the caps are sometimes just for convenient emphasis, not necessarily shouting. Although, calling someone a liar is certainly deserving.

You're bragging, because by creating a story in which you paint an image of yourself that follows the pattern of a fairly admirable young male. Sexual activity at a young age, after all, men, and the majority of society, see themselves as the dominant, more ambitious factor in sexual relations. It's desirable for young men to be sexually active, they can brag about it and gain more status within their group.

Men bragging about their sexual escapades and activities is something that we can see throughout the ages, and age-groups. As society lends a certain status to the succes of the sexual predator, which is incidentally how men choose to portray themselves in society as a whole. A man who has had intercourse with a multitude of females can be considered quite macho, and fullfilling the role of an admirable man on that particular level. This image of sexual predator of course ties back into evolutionary psychology, where men are also portrayed as hunters, those who take the initiative. People brag about sex, money, and all sorts of things. Does that mean that any time someone says that they're among the rare people who has a lot of money, unusual sexual experiences, or anything else out of the norm that the person's lying? No, it doesn't. Does that mean you should believe them? Not necessarily. Does it mean you should step to them and say you don't believe them, essentially calling this person, that you don't know, a liar (which, again, is distinct from simply being misinformed about some fact, as this situation has to do with one's own life experiences)? No, again. But you did, anyway. You chose to take that action, so you should reasonably expect a reaction. This was mine.

And let's not forget that your question targets me specifically, when the original statement you made was adressed to all who could read it. It was an accurate statement about my own life experiences, which, in my opinion, supported my suggestions to the person who started the thread. People might judge my actions any number of ways. I didn't tell them what to think of it, just that it happened with me, so it's a possibility - one that should be taken into consideration within the context of this discussion.

Now, with that said, that's as much as I'm willing to derail this thread with you. But, if you'd be interested in talking with me in p.m., we can do that.

The Dosadi Experiment

03-25-2005, 05:08 AM

That's double-talk. I said what happened. You said you didn't believe me. That's the same as saying it didn't happen, which is the same as saying that I'm lying (which is distinct from simply being misinformed about some fact, as this situation has to do with one's own life experiences).

You seem to not see the nuances in language that I do.

People brag about sex, money, and all sorts of things. Does that mean that any time someone says that they're among the rare people who has a lot of money, unusual sexual experiences, or anything else out of the norm that the person's lying? No, it doesn't. Does that mean you should believe them? Not necessarily. Does it mean you should step to them and say you don't believe them, essentially calling this person, that you don't know, a liar (which, again, is distinct from simply being misinformed about some fact, as this situation has to do with one's own life experiences)? No, again. But you did, anyway. You chose to take that action, so you should reasonably expect a reaction. This was mine.

You completely missed the point. You just ignored it and tried to bury its relevance underneath an empathic plea.

Oh yes, others lie about everything, but not you, of course never you, why I was such a cold heartless monster to even think of the possibility that you're capable of acting like 'those' others might act.

It was an accurate statement about my own life experiences, which, in my opinion, supported my suggestions to the person who started the thread. People might judge my actions any number of ways. I didn't tell them what to think of it, just that it happened with me, so it's a possibility - one that should be taken into consideration within the context of this discussion.

Amazingly you ignored every question I posed you, you ignored quite valid questions and remarks. It might be that you can't answer them, or because answering those questions might prove to difficult for you, as they confront you with something you're not willing to confront yourself with, it's common for people to ignore and deny simple truths because they offend them or because they don't want to think about those issues.

You either can't answer them, or you don't want to answer them.

Which only endorses the image I had initially, fo someone who bragged about his sexual encounters in the past, someone who has painted a picture only to create certain image of himself that appeals to the group, that stands out in a way that it would instill some wonder or even respect from peers.

Admiration can work like a drug, and so can the idea that you are somehow more evolved, better, than others.

Now, with that said, that's as much as I'm willing to derail this thread with you. But, if you'd be interested in talking with me in p.m., we can do that.

I'm not interested in taking this up in P.M.

This sordid affair is a natural extension of the original question posed, as one might argue that when taking away the allure that comes with the taboo that lies on sex, one takes away the need to brag about it all.

venuscameback

03-25-2005, 05:26 AM

one thing i've noticed that does back up what Dosadi is saying ...

it seems really important for West3Man to be believed, to convince us he's being truthful, and he's outraged that anyone might doubt him.

there have been times when i've been called a liar on cbr, and when i've had no way of proving it i've shrugged my shoulders and effectively said "fine, if that's what you want to believe". that you seem to crave group approval so much does fit in with what Dosadi noted about the way young men brag.

i'm not saying i believe you or not, i haven't even read what you first posted yet, just that your manner and reponses fit with the kind of personality that Dosadi describes. when someone's so outraged at being called a liar, unless by a close friend or loved one, it's usually, in my experience, because they are upset at being caught out (or at risk of being caught out, which brings up similar feelings) and they seek to avoid discussion of whether what was said was true or not and turn it into a "how dare you question me, you don't know me" thing instead and bluff/bully their way out of difficult questions

ian/dlw

west3man

03-25-2005, 05:32 AM

I was JUST about to put up a post asking if the rest of you see this as thread derailment or not. I was going to go with the first or, in the event of multiple responses, the majority and either take it into p.m. (not much of an option, as Dosadi has refused), ignore him/her, or respond in-thread. If there are any other responses, by the time I send this post, I'll make my decision based upon them. Otherwise, I'll take venus's response as a sign that I should respond right here and now.one thing i've noticed that does back up what Dosadi is saying ...

it seems really important for West3Man to be believed, to convince us he's being truthful, and he's outraged that anyone might doubt him.

there have been times when i've been called a liar on cbr, and when i've had no way of proving it i've shrugged my shoulders and effectively said "fine, if that's what you want to believe". that you seem to crave group approval so much does fit in with what Dosadi noted about the way young men brag.

i'm not saying i believe you or not, i haven't even read what you first posted yet, just that your manner and reponses fit with the kind of personality that Dosadi describes. when someone's so outraged at being called a liar, unless by a close friend or loved one, it's usually, in my experience, because they are upset at being caught out (or at risk of being caught out, which brings up similar feelings) and they seek to avoid discussion of whether what was said was true or not and turn it into a "how dare you question me, you don't know me" thing instead and bluff/bully their way out of difficult questions

ian/dlw

venuscameback

03-25-2005, 05:39 AM

Masturbation is common for kids who haven't physically and mentally reached puberty yet, but for them the act isn't sexual, neither was playing doctor at the age of 4, or comparing your genitalia with those of some other kid when you were 6.

very true.

even as a ten year old, although i was doing things that in adults would be considered very sexual, i was doing them because they were what i thought daring and what i thought a young man should be doing, and it was very enjoyable - but not because it was a sexual turn on. even though it was effectively sexual stuff that was going on.

ian/dlw

west3man

03-25-2005, 06:25 AM

Since you wanted your questions answered, here you go:The question isn't really about me, it's more about you. Why exactly should we believe your claims? How about the fact that I have nothing to gain by lying about having been involved in "stuff," not actual sex, before the age of eight. No one's going to pat me on the back and say, "Good man," because of some "stuff" I did almost 25 years, ago.

Why should we blindly accept what you say, when it is known to all of us that bragging about sexual activity is a fairly common practice amongst males? Maybe because it's better to judge a person by his own actions and history, instead of the actions of *some people* in a group that person happens to member of?

Why shouldn't we take your claims and hold them to the light of modern adolescent psychology and sexual psychology? Feel free to. That may be a valuable way of determining the chances that my experiences are or are not typical. However, just because the odds that a given event will occur *may* be low, that doesn't mean the event never happens.

because you say so? What makes you think that you're so important that we all fawn and fall before you and accept without question every claim made by you? I don't recall asking for any fawning or falling. I don't recall asking that you accept everything I say without question. I question things all the time.

This isn't some obscure trivia fact that needs to be questioned, confirmed, and verified before a life-and-death decision is made based upon it. It is simply an account of my experiences, which may or may not be typical. Being atypical is not necessarily the same thing as being false.

Solaris

03-25-2005, 07:10 AM

I tend to take people off the bat that they're telling the truth. If they're lying, or bragging, it usually shows later. (And lying and bragging aren't always the same things. Sometimes people brag, or exaggerate, about something that's true.)

I've never seen any indications that West would feel a desire to lie about something like this.

As for Dosadi's first statement, while it is often typical for young males to brag or even lie about their experiences, most of them grow out of outright lying by the time they're West's age. Second, just because your experience wasn't of earlier sexual interest, doesn't make that universal. As I mentioned in another thread, kids are, on average, hitting puberty a lot younger than a hundred years ago (by comparison), and scientists believe part of that is the consumption of growth hormones we get from our meat products. I know of several cases where girls in *first grade* (SIX years old) are developing breasts, and getting their menses shortly afterwards. That's the low end of the scale, but the scale has moved down the age range from where it was a hundred, or even fifty, years ago. And where you have hormones, often sexual interest follows.

There's also the fact that kids, even back in my day (I'm 42) were exposed to a fair amount of sex and innuendo, with everything from tv shows to Playboy, to jokes on the playground. And where there's exposure, there's curiosity about "the big deal"... especially when grown-ups avoid the topic.

I can remember getting in trouble for playing with nude Barbies and Kens when I was around seven (as in putting them together naked their "bed"), and when I was around eight, trying to draw portions of anatomy and getting into trouble for *that*. I was curious. And interested. I also remember a lot of kids sneaking peeks into Playboys, or watching their Dad's porn by various means. (Heck, my hubby was watching his dad's porn by age nine or ten, because he figured out a way to tap his tv into the house system, when his dad was watching Playboy channel and other stuff.)

And of course, all that leaves out the input into the "kids' culture" of the kids who have been sexually abused. Even if some don't talk about it, some do; and some of them even turn predator on other children.

As to why West got upset when you questioned him... well, you're right that some people get immediately upset when they're lying and get questioned. What you aren't considering is that some people *also* get immediately upset just by being called a liar, when they were being honest. It's a character trait.

You can believe what you want---it's your right---but I've met West, and known him a while on the forums, and IMO, he's telling the truth. :)

Slam_Bradley

03-25-2005, 07:36 AM

Having gay friends solves about 90% of the problem. By the time they start to figure out what gay is, the conversation about it is pretty simple, and they already know that gay people aren't scary monsters.

Worked okay for us, anyway.

I agree with Mac on this, Roger. I'll relate what happened with Nathan, my nine year old. When I was in law school, my ex-wife had a number of friends/co-workers who were gay. They'd come to the house as couples, Pat and Nate would go with them to different events, etc. He never knew any different. The extent of the conversation was that there are lots of different kinds of families. There are families with Mommies and Daddies, some with two Daddies, some with two Mommies, some with a Grandma and Grandpa. As long as everyone loves each other, that's what matters. We've always stressed that everyone is different and like different things, and that is what makes the world a fun and interesting place.

I think it has worked fine. It's very natural for him to see gay couples and doesn't really raise any more questions than seeing straight couples. At nine, he knows the basics of the birds and the bees, but he motly thinks girls are yucky, and that's ok.

DarkBlade

03-25-2005, 07:55 AM

Ten is not that bizzare of an age. I knew a girl in 5th grade that raped. (Yes, that's active form, not passive.)

Yes, I'm aware that rape is more about power than sex, but there's still a certain amount of sex involved. Bad shit happens to kids, and that can result in kids doing bad shit to other kids. It's a good idea to cover both good and bad possibilities, for if nothing else than to protect your kids but also not /scare/ them off of sex.

west3man

03-25-2005, 08:07 AM

I also like the idea of talking to kids about these things early so that they gain the proper respect for sex, sexuality, personal boundaries, etc.

I don't think enough kids fully understood that when I was younger (or now, for that matter) and that can definitely affect one's emotional/personal development.

Tom

03-25-2005, 09:04 AM

I think Dosadi likes you, West.

howyadoin

03-25-2005, 09:34 AM

The Dosadi Experiment

03-25-2005, 09:44 AM

Maybe you should stop projecting your own sexual experience (and/or lack thereof) on other people. I don't see anything unbelievable about West's story.

Yes you've convinced me of the 11-year old who goes out to get some nookie. I'm now a believer. Your personal insight into my mind touched me like only old father Flannigan touched me.

Poor little me, wasting time and money on an education, who knew that all those psychology-classes were a waste.

Poor little me, when I was 11, I just sipped wine at the French Riviera, finishing up my second book, dining on lobster, watching the sun set over the horizon and write sophisticated and complex analyses of human interaction and how it relates to our perception of reality.

If only I was as cool and developped at that age as West3man, getting nookie and having my parents buy me condoms.

Why, you don't believe me? Maybe that's just because you're projecting your own insecurities on me, and you're inability to relate to the real world, with your feeble mental capabilities. After all, those warm summer-months I spent deck of my exclusive yacht, purchased from an old prince with a fondness for boyflesh, writing sophisticated and complex matter, are my very own experiences, and you should just believe me. Just because it's out of the ordinary, doesn't mean that it never happened.

howyadoin

03-25-2005, 09:49 AM

Slam_Bradley

03-25-2005, 09:57 AM

I don't want this to be contentious or nasty.

I'm sure glad that we haven't had any contention or nastiness on this thread.

west3man

03-25-2005, 10:03 AM

Yes you've convinced me of the 11-year old who goes out to get some nookie. I'm now a believer. I wasn't having sex at the age of eleven. I never said that I did.

JeffreyWKramer

03-25-2005, 10:05 AM

Poor little me, wasting time and money on an education, who knew that all those psychology-classes were a waste.

What psychology are you referring to? Specifically, what did you learn that causes you to quetion West's account?

And where the hell did this "sex at 11" stuff come in, anyhow?

Certainly overt sexual interest/behavior isn't very typical in 11-year-old boys - it's not normative - but it certainly isn't unknown, either. Some kids mature at slightly earlier ages than others, and some environments and cultures push sexual experimentation as a sign of maturity, pushing kids to be interested more early than would otherwise be the case.

If any of your psychology classes taught that this is an imposibility, you were taught incorrect data. I say this as someone who knows a bit about the subject, and as someone who has many years experience teaching psychology, human development, etc.

Smoogis

03-25-2005, 10:05 AM

...Casually ignoring the derailment...

I basically learned by myself, asking my parents questions if I was confused on something. Or, when the topic became about sexuality, just went with the flow. I think it saved all of us whatever embarassment we mighta had.

The Dosadi Experiment

03-25-2005, 10:09 AM

And I could be wrong, but it seems to me you've said in the past that you were a virgin. If not I apologize, but if it's true then it's bound to colour your perceptions of the issue, don't you think?

You assume that somehow, for some reason, my state as a virgin, influences my opinion in this matter. As if I'm bitter and jealous, and unable to accept that people have premarital sex, or even multiple loose sexual encounters throughout their lives? As if being a virgin somehow influences what I've been taught during those years in school.

I'm not dellusional enough to take the world and base it on my own person. I have no problems accepting that I'm not the norm, and I'm not the person who should be used to measure life outside of myself. You seem to have this idea that I'm unable to accept others that are unlike me.

Face it, my virginity doesn't factor into any of this, as I've never made my virginity into a matter of morality. No need to lash out in anger, as the choice was never one of morals and values, it was a practical choice for so many years.

Another flaw would be to dismiss it all because you think that I'm a virgin by circumstances, not choice. If you think I'm horrible deformed, ugly as sin, and incapable of finding physical companionship, unfortunately I'm quite normal looking, some would say above average, as I've modelled in the past and still do on occaison.

and let's conclude with something that holds ever so true to words spoken in the past: what once was needn't still be.

west3man

03-25-2005, 10:15 AM

I have no problems accepting that I'm not the norm, So, you agree that the fact that your experience was not the norm doesn't change the fact that it was your actual experience? Good. We agree.

Please, let's move on.

Tom

03-25-2005, 10:18 AM

The hell...?

west3man

03-25-2005, 10:25 AM

The hell...?
I'm not sure what you're reacting to. Assuming it was my last post,...

Dosadi seemed to be saying that the fact that I claim to have had an experience that was different from the norm means that my claim was a lie.

I was trying to express the similarity between Dosadi's apparent experience and my own. Dosadi's experience was not the norm, but s/he knows it WAS real. Clearly, being different from the norm isn't the same thing as being false.

Anyway, that's what I was trying to say.

The Dosadi Experiment

03-25-2005, 10:27 AM

What psychology are you referring to? Specifically, what did you learn that causes you to quetion West's account?

The fact that it's uncommon, especially considering his age and the society he grew up in. As mentioned it has been proven that children mature earlier in this day and age than they did in the past. Yet even in the world we live in today it's uncommon for children to actively engage in sexual activities at the age of eleven.

And where the hell did this "sex at 11" stuff come in, anyhow?

Most of it comes from people putting words into my mouth.

Certainly overt sexual interest/behavior isn't very typical in 11-year-old boys - it's not normative - but it certainly isn't unknown, either. Some kids mature at slightly earlier ages than others, and some environments and cultures push sexual experimentation as a sign of maturity, pushing kids to be interested more early than would otherwise be the case.

but wouldn't you then agree that the chances of exageration, and bragging about such early sexual encounters, would increase phenomenally? If 'normal' pressure would result in people bragging and lying about those things, would an 'abnormal' ammount of pressure create more reasons from that environment to lie and brag?

Again, it all comes down to what's more likely. What is the most probable scenario? Tell me.

If any of your psychology classes taught that this is an imposibility, you were taught incorrect data.

And if you've never been taught the differences between multiple scenarios in which the probability chances are not equal, then you should go back to school.

I never claimed that it's an impossibility, I find it dubious as it is improbable in the first place and that it's even more improbable if we look at the other factors involved, namely that of the scenario in which the male lies about his experiences in this field.

I say this as someone who knows a bit about the subject, and as someone who has many years experience teaching psychology, human development, etc.

And the crowd goes wild, then you will agree with me that the scenario in which the subject lies and/or brags about his sexual encounters is more probable than him being an actual deviant? You can find yourself to be just as sceptical about the claim as I have been?

Tom

03-25-2005, 10:28 AM

I'm not sure what you're reacting to. Assuming it was my last post,...
Nope. Dosadi's bizzare behavior.

Solaris

03-25-2005, 10:29 AM

Yes you've convinced me of the 11-year old who goes out to get some nookie. I'm now a believer. Your personal insight into my mind touched me like only old father Flannigan touched me.

Poor little me, wasting time and money on an education, who knew that all those psychology-classes were a waste.

Poor little me, when I was 11, I just sipped wine at the French Riviera, finishing up my second book, dining on lobster, watching the sun set over the horizon and write sophisticated and complex analyses of human interaction and how it relates to our perception of reality.

If only I was as cool and developped at that age as West3man, getting nookie and having my parents buy me condoms.

Why, you don't believe me? Maybe that's just because you're projecting your own insecurities on me, and you're inability to relate to the real world, with your feeble mental capabilities. After all, those warm summer-months I spent deck of my exclusive yacht, purchased from an old prince with a fondness for boyflesh, writing sophisticated and complex matter, are my very own experiences, and you should just believe me. Just because it's out of the ordinary, doesn't mean that it never happened.

Er... who put the burr under your saddleblanket, pardner???

Let's go back and look at this.

West made a statement regarding his own experience, relating to the thread topic. He joked around a bit about it, but it was both on topic, and regarding his own experience with it.

*You* jumped on his response with immediate sarcasm and derision, while calling him a "liar."

*He* responded heatedly to being called a liar, saying you had no good cause to do so (and he was right). I further note that a lot of his heat may well have come, not from you expressing doubt over his veracity, but from the immediate scathing sarcasm by which you expressed said doubt.

At which point you tried to use his heated response as proof that he's lying, because "all liars get angry when you question their lie," which may be mostly true, but which also leaves out the fact that a lot of people will get angry when they're telling the *truth* and are *accused* of lying---especially when it's couched in such derisive sarcasm.

Now you've decided that, because Howya felt you had no real grounds for the excessiveness of your reaction, and for doubting West, that *he's* defending West because they're "buddies," and you're ignoring Howya's point completely. (And if Howya and West are "buddies," it's news to me.)

You keep saying you learned this stuff "in school"---care to elaborate on that? Was it elementary school? High school? College? A specialty in the field of psychology? Was it something actually taught in a class/course, or merely something that you picked up from your peers?

Regardless of where you learned "it," I think Jeffrey's reply definitely explains the psychological v.p. on this. And, given the number of replies in this thread, by various posters, about knowledge of and/or experience of sexual activity/interest/questions at an early age (11 or younger), I really don't see how "colloquial wisdom to the contrary" stacks up as a counter to that.

Let me put this to you frankly: I peeked into my uncle's Playboys when I was eight years old. I was curious and interested. I also know of several people who did likewise, peeking at porn or performing their own investigations, before they were ten. I also know of people who were molested at a young age, and of at least one who turned to molesting other children. I know of one guy who was, at age six, invited to have sex with his 13 year old babysitter---and he did. By reaching age 13 himself, he'd had sex with three girls. I also had a classmate who, at age 12, was pregnant---and she got that way at age 11. Gods only know how old she was when she started having sex.

And that's not even counting in media accounts of kids raping kids, or of statistical information... all of that is personal experience, or experiences of people I know and trust (and often told to me very ashamedly, not as bragging, btw).

Does any of that help clarify how West's statements can seem "normal" and "typical" to those of us who've seen or heard much stronger stuff than that, for kids that age?

PS---drop the Riviera stuff, will ya? It's getting old really fast.

Dom

03-25-2005, 10:36 AM

Never wait for your kids to ask.

If they ask, it's because it already happened or is about too.

Talk to them, not down to them.

Mind you, I have no kids and I've successfully corrupted 2 youths into near suicide.

The Dosadi Experiment

03-25-2005, 10:37 AM

I'm not sure what you're reacting to. Assuming it was my last post,...

Dosadi seemed to be saying that the fact that I claim to have had an experience that was different from the norm means that my claim was a lie.

sigh, you still don't get it.

I was trying to express the similarity between Dosadi's apparent experience and my own. Dosadi's experience was not the norm, but s/he knows it WAS real. Clearly, being different from the norm isn't the same thing as being false.

Anyway, that's what I was trying to say.

It seems to elude you time and again.

You are demanding that we take a highly improbable scenario and accept it as truth when it is known to all of us that males brag and boast about such encounters. You expect us all to take your word for it, because you said it.

Would you side with the deviant, even when it is known that subjects in comparable situations would brag and boast about the matter? And what would the basis for your devotion to that truth be? Because you know the deviant?

You seem unable to discover nuances between several issues. You think in black and white terms, or so it seems. Your situation and my situation aren't related, and there are more differences then there are similairities. You made a claim which I didn't believe because it's more likely that it's not true.

What exactly would make my claim so similair to yours, as I haven't really made a claim at all. Somebody questioned my position in this discussion, based on knowledge given in the past. I adressed the issue, as it was implied that my personal situation tainted my side of the argument. I explained that it was unlikely, and gave my motivations, you on the other hand made a claim that could easily be boastful, and is even quite like to be of such a nature.

Solaris

03-25-2005, 10:39 AM

And back to the thread topic:

There's one other very very good reason to be open, and honest, with your children about sex (and unembarassed when you do so): the chances are pretty strong that your child will experience someone (another child, or a teen or adult) attempting inappropraite touching, or worse. If you've built a strong relationship with your child, it helps encourage them to tell you about it, and counters the other person's claims that "they won't believe you" or "you can't tell anyone." One of the reasons assailants tend to get away with it is that often, the child *will* feel some form of arousal or gratification... and thus feels that they actively participated in it, and have done something to be ashamed of, and will thus try to hide it. Children don't understand that there's a difference between their body feeling a natural arousal at some things, and the fact that this person is taking them somewhere that they didn't want to go, sexually, and/or that the wrong is being done solely by the perpetrator. It's a hard one to explain to a kid, but it's an important one... that even though something might feel good to them, it doesn't mean that they were in any way at fault, or did something bad. If a kid feels any kind of arousal or enjoyment from it, the perp uses that to try to convince them that they were active participants in doing something wrong, to keep the kid from telling. That's a hard one to overcome in a kid's mind, and the more groundwork you lay for countering it ahead of time, the better.

Tom

03-25-2005, 10:40 AM

You are demanding that we take a highly improbable scenario and accept it as truth when it is known to all of us that males brag and boast about such encounters. He's not demanding anything. He tossed off a comment regarding the thread topic and you decided to wig out over it. What difference does it make to you?

JeffreyWKramer

03-25-2005, 10:43 AM

but wouldn't you then agree that the chances of exageration, and bragging about such early sexual encounters, would increase phenomenally? If 'normal' pressure would result in people bragging and lying about those things, would an 'abnormal' ammount of pressure create more reasons from that environment to lie and brag?

Again, it all comes down to what's more likely. What is the most probable scenario? Tell me.

And if you've never been taught the differences between multiple scenarios in which the probability chances are not equal, then you should go back to school.

And the crowd goes wild, then you will agree with me that the scenario in which the subject lies and/or brags about his sexual encounters is more probable than him being an actual deviant? You can find yourself to be just as sceptical about the claim as I have been?

Both situations you describe are possible. Exaggeration is probably more statistically likely, however - and here you seem to be missing an important point - statistics almost never tell you anything about any given, specific individual. Statistics refer to trends only. Given that to be the case, unless I have other information upon which to base the decision, I tend to assume people are reporting things accurately, and that when they give an atypical account, they are an example of someone not following the general trend. Will I wonder if I'm being fed a line? Of course. Even in the best of cases, self-report tends to be inaccurate. But I can't assume a given report is innacturate, exaggerated, a lie,etc. unless either a) it falls outside the observed realm of possibility or b) I have other data upon which to base that judgment.

Or, rather, I *can* make that assumption, but I'd be rude and an ass to do so.

You, on the other hand, seem to assume individual cases which don't follow general trends are most likely examples of exaggeration or falsehod. I see this as problematic on several grounds. First, given the wide variance in most aspects of human reality - even including strongly biological things like development - the potential for variance is quite large. In other words, quite a few people don't fit within the norm. Second, while your approach may statistically result in you being correct more often than not across a huge number of cases, it is still a rather cynical and disrespectful stance to apply to individuals.

Dreadstar

03-25-2005, 10:46 AM

Dosadi, stop being an ass to West.

That's *my* freakin' job, and I'll file a grievance with the union if I have to.

Ayo

03-25-2005, 10:50 AM

By the way, and please post no follow up...when I was eleven, kids in the school yard were already familiar with the idea of sex and "doing it."

Doubtful that any of them were, but there is an awareness at that age.

Don't call people liars about their own experiences unless you actually know something. I don't know the man personally, but everything I've seen of him suggests that whether right or wrong, he's a stand-up guy.

Now I've posted to the topic as well as the subject of the drift. I'm finished.

The Dosadi Experiment

03-25-2005, 10:57 AM

*You* jumped on his response with immediate sarcasm and derision, while calling him a "liar."

Saying that you don't believe someone isn't the same as saying you think someone is a liar. Not that it really matters, because everybody here is a liar, there are no honest persons on this board.

You want to see things in black and white without any nuances, then that's the truth, we're all liars, as little white lies still constitute as lies. Everybody has told one lie or another during the cause of his or her life, it being a small lie or a big lie, a lie is a lie in this realm without nuance, and that makes all of us liars.

*He* responded heatedly to being called a liar, saying you had no good cause to do so (and he was right). I further note that a lot of his heat may well have come, not from you expressing doubt over his veracity, but from the immediate scathing sarcasm by which you expressed said doubt.

Then you should re-read the entire thread, as I have every reason to doubt his statement, I've elaborated on it multiple times already. I can now call you a liar, as you're stating something that isn't true. No good cause? I saw a claim, and that claim deviated from the norm, while it's NOT uncommon to brag or lie about such an issue. I decided that the person who made the claim was the most unlikely scenario, the most improbable one of the two. And I commented on that.

Seeing how this thread deals with sexual education of minors that is tied into the original matter of the subject.

At which point you tried to use his heated response as proof that he's lying, because "all liars get angry when you question their lie," which may be mostly true, but which also leaves out the fact that a lot of people will get angry when they're telling the *truth* and are *accused* of lying---especially when it's couched in such derisive sarcasm.

You do know that technically you're now just making it all up as you go. Never claim that someone said something when they never did. You claimed that those were my exact words, go and point them out for me then.

Now you've decided that, because Howya felt you had no real grounds for the excessiveness of your reaction, and for doubting West, that *he's* defending West because they're "buddies," and you're ignoring Howya's point completely. (And if Howya and West are "buddies," it's news to me.)

I adressed Howya's point.

You keep saying you learned this stuff "in school"---care to elaborate on that? Was it elementary school? High school? College? A specialty in the field of psychology? Was it something actually taught in a class/course, or merely something that you picked up from your peers?

College, psychology, I'm unfamiliar with the american system, so it's not easy for me to explain in an easy manner how things are organised here without going into full detail on the system, and discussing the system is even less relevant that discussing my background. But one of the branches of psychology is achildren's and dolescent psychology.

Let me put this to you frankly: I peeked into my uncle's Playboys when I was eight years old. I was curious and interested. I also know of several people who did likewise, peeking at porn or performing their own investigations, before they were ten. I also know of people who were molested at a young age, and of at least one who turned to molesting other children. I know of one guy who was, at age six, invited to have sex with his 13 year old babysitter---and he did. By reaching age 13 himself, he'd had sex with three girls.

I find it more probable that you're only telling me part of the story concerning the babysitter and the six-year old.

I also had a classmate who, at age 12, was pregnant---and she got that way at age 11. Gods only know how old she was when she started having sex.

It only takes one time for her to get pregnant. And again, I find it more probable that there is more to that tale than you have told us here.

And that's not even counting in media accounts of kids raping kids, or of statistical information... all of that is personal experience, or experiences of people I know and trust (and often told to me very ashamedly, not as bragging, btw).

Oooooooooh the media is such a foul little bugger that you don't want to bring up as evidence, as news is ever so subjective and sensitive to what it is that people want to report on.

Good example of this, seeing how we all love examples, the Catholic church is involved in scandalous affairs, those only came to light last year, does that mean it never happened before that year? No it doesn't, but does that mean that it happened 'less' before that year? I'm inclined to say no, what you read isn't a good depiction of frequency.

If I read about children teasing other kids in the newspaper the impression is raised that today it's more common and more vicious than before, but I'm tainted by the lack of exposure in the past. Basing your finds on what the media reports you is letting yourself be influenced and manipulated to a fairly large degree.

Does any of that help clarify how West's statements can seem "normal" and "typical" to those of us who've seen or heard much stronger stuff than that, for kids that age?

Not really.

as you now create the image that if you can top one thing off with a more outrageous story, the least of the three becomes more probable.

-That man is a mass-murderer!
-How do you know?
-Stranger things have happened!

Smoogis

03-25-2005, 10:57 AM

The hell...?

He's trying to do the CBR thing and make everything an argument.

*nods*

The Dosadi Experiment

03-25-2005, 10:59 AM

Now I've posted to the topic as well as the subject of the drift. I'm finished.

but who are you?

Tom

03-25-2005, 11:02 AM

I repeat: The hell...?

The Dosadi Experiment

03-25-2005, 11:05 AM

You, on the other hand, seem to assume individual cases which don't follow general trends are most likely examples of exaggeration or falsehod. I see this as problematic on several grounds. First, given the wide variance in most aspects of human reality - even including strongly biological things like development - the potential for variance is quite large. In other words, quite a few people don't fit within the norm. Second, while your approach may statistically result in you being correct more often than not across a huge number of cases, it is still a rather cynical and disrespectful stance to apply to individuals.

Cynicism is something we need on the internet, especially in E-communities.

You call it disrespectful, but while we both agree on certain issues, we take two different approaches to the subject matter, at least when dealing with E-communities.

You seem to deal with people on the internet on a more personal level than I do, in these types of discussion I find it easier to erase the person behind the handle, it detaches me from the opposing group, no conflict of interest.

The Dosadi Experiment

03-25-2005, 11:07 AM

I repeat: The hell...?

My fingers are tired because of all that typing.

Let's sing a song Tom.

JeffreyWKramer

03-25-2005, 11:09 AM

Cynicism is something we need on the internet, especially in E-communities.

You call it disrespectful, but while we both agree on certain issues, we take two different approaches to the subject matter, at least when dealing with E-communities.

You seem to deal with people on the internet on a more personal level than I do, in these types of discussion I find it easier to erase the person behind the handle, it detaches me from the opposing group, no conflict of interest.

Hey, if it works for you, go for it. There are aspects of my style which irk people, too, so far be it from me to harp on someone else who understands what he's doing and decides to do it anyhow.

Just don't be surprised when you come off as rather condescending and insulting, and a lot of people get pissed off.

Tom

03-25-2005, 11:25 AM

My fingers are tired because of all that typing.

Let's sing a song Tom.
I can't. I'm afraid you'll have a meltdown if I go off-key.

west3man

03-25-2005, 11:25 AM

Anyway, speaking as someone whose parents were fairly open to the subject of sex and sexuality, I think there's a lot to be gained by taking that approach. I told my Mom about things I'd be embarrassed to ever have her bring up, now... BUT it was beneficial for both sides:

* For child-me, I knew that if I had a sex question or concern, if I couldn't turn to ANYONE I knew I could turn to my parents. And I did. I got good information and had an outlet at times when I wanted to say things I wouldn't share with my buddies.

* For my parents, they had the peace-of-mind that comes with knowing your children are probably doing okay. Sure, I didn't tell them EVERYTHING and they probably knew that (especially after invading my privacy at one point or another), but they didn't have to worry so much about if I had accurate, healthy information ... or what I was doing.

There can be uncomfortable moments, but it's worth it. And this is from the CHILD's perspective! I didn't realize until much later that, despite the problems I had with my parents, I was pretty lucky to have many of the positive aspects of our relationship.

Anyway, I hope this helps. (It's actually kinda helping me decide on what I might do should I ever become a father.)

Tom

03-25-2005, 11:39 AM

Alright, thread topic: I think almost everyone's covered the "how to talk gay to your kids" portion of the program, but I'll weigh in:

When parents refer, even obliquely, to sexuality when talking to children, most of them are pretty good about couching it in terms familiar and safe to the kid. Any reference to sex is usually prefaced with "When a man and a woman love each other..." -- and that's good. That's appropriate and correct that when first confronted with the idea of sex, we wrap it up in terms of love. It's the best, healthiest way to introduce the concept.

The problem is, this isn't always the parent's first thought when confronted with the topic of homosexuality, because most straight people have a difficult time not making homosexuality just about the physical. It's usually pretty rare for a parent to get into the mechanics of penile-vaginal intercourse the first time the topic of sex is brought up, so you really shouldn't even be thinking along those lines when homosexuality is brought up.

My sister made two minor mistakes when discussing it with her kids. She referenced the "two mommies or two daddies" argument which confused her kids because Desi and I (the de facto topic of the conversation) don't have kids. Then she tried to explain the concept of "liking boys vs. liking girls." This led her 7-year-old to mistakenly believe that I don't like girls. All girls. Including herself. That caused some confusion until she expressed surprise that I was coming to her birthday party. "I thought Uncle Tommy didn't like girls!"

Yeah.

Anyway, my only advice is to make it about love. Most grownups fall in love with another grownup. For almost all grownups, that means that men fall in love with women and women fall in love with men. Sometimes though, a man will fall in love with another man or a woman will fall in love with another woman. That's what "gay" means.

Ayo

03-25-2005, 11:43 AM

in these types of discussion I find it easier to erase the person behind the handle, it detaches me from the opposing group, no conflict of interest.

Well yes. If you pretend that the people you're talking to aren't real people, it's very easy to run off at the mouth and say a lot of ignorant things to them. I'm sure that, to you, it feels as though you're singing in the shower. But guess what: people hear you. People see you. Your ignorance is showing.

Besides, this is a community board. If you want to post robotically into the wind, start a blog. But we come here to build with other human beings.

As for who I am: Do you read this board at all?

I said I was finished, but I never could keep a promise.

Sorry to everyone else for continuing this line of discussion.

Dreadstar

03-25-2005, 11:46 AM

...Then she tried to explain the concept of "liking boys vs. liking girls." This led her 7-year-old to mistakenly believe that I don't like girls. All girls. Including herself. That caused some confusion until she expressed surprise that I was coming to her birthday party. "I thought Uncle Tommy didn't like girls!"

This is both bittersweet and cute all at the same time.

west3man

03-25-2005, 11:47 AM

Alright, thread topic: I think almost everyone's covered the "how to talk gay to your kids" portion of the program, but I'll weigh in:

When parents refer, even obliquely, to sexuality when talking to children, most of them are pretty good about couching it in terms familiar and safe to the kid. Any reference to sex is usually prefaced with "When a man and a woman love each other..." -- and that's good. That's appropriate and correct that when first confronted with the idea of sex, we wrap it up in terms of love. It's the best, healthiest way to introduce the concept.

The problem is, this isn't always the parent's first thought when confronted with the topic of homosexuality, because most straight people have a difficult time not making homosexuality just about the physical. It's usually pretty rare for a parent to get into the mechanics of penile-vaginal intercourse the first time the topic of sex is brought up, so you really shouldn't even be thinking along those lines when homosexuality is brought up.

My sister made two minor mistakes when discussing it with her kids. She referenced the "two mommies or two daddies" argument which confused her kids because Desi and I (the de facto topic of the conversation) don't have kids. Then she tried to explain the concept of "liking boys vs. liking girls." This led her 7-year-old to mistakenly believe that I don't like girls. All girls. Including herself. That caused some confusion until she expressed surprise that I was coming to her birthday party. "I thought Uncle Tommy didn't like girls!"

Yeah. Permission to use an emoticon, SIR?!

:(

I'm glad it got cleared up, though.

Anyway, my only advice is to make it about love. Most grownups fall in love with another grownup. For almost all grownups, that means that men fall in love with women and women fall in love with men. Sometimes though, a man will fall in love with another man or a woman will fall in love with another woman. That's what "gay" means.Sounds like good advice.

The specifics are especially useful. Saying "Don't trip!" is nice, but saying, "Don't trip over THIS!" is REALLY helpful.

I've only had to tell one person about "the birds and the bees" and I never covered homosexuality during that series of talks. It never occurred to me. This may be because I'd been expressing my and asking for his and his sisters opinions regarding gay marriage for a while. He was already a teenager or close to it.

Still, if there's a next time, I'll 1) try not to forget to mention it and 2) if I'm speaking to very young children, I'll try to be careful with my phrasings.

So, thanks, in advance.

Ayo

03-25-2005, 11:48 AM

Tom: that sounds like the best path. People get too caught up with the "sex" parts of "homosexuality," "heterosexuality," "bisexuality..." and so on.

Slam_Bradley

03-25-2005, 11:55 AM

My sister made two minor mistakes when discussing it with her kids. She referenced the "two mommies or two daddies" argument which confused her kids because Desi and I (the de facto topic of the conversation) don't have kids. Then she tried to explain the concept of "liking boys vs. liking girls." This led her 7-year-old to mistakenly believe that I don't like girls. All girls. Including herself. That caused some confusion until she expressed surprise that I was coming to her birthday party. "I thought Uncle Tommy didn't like girls!"

Good advice Tom. We talked about the "two daddies", etc. because one of Pat's friends was previously married and had his children with he and his companion at times. At the time Nathan also had playmates that were in single-parent homes and that lived with their grandparents, so we felt it was important. Obviously situations vary.

You do point out that kids can be VERY literal minded, which is always a danger in talking to them.

Corrina

03-25-2005, 12:01 PM

Saying that you don't believe someone isn't the same as saying you think someone is a liar. Not that it really matters, because everybody here is a liar, there are no honest persons on this board.

Why does this remind me of the Wallace Shawn/Cary Elwes scene in "Princess Bride" when Shawn is deciding which cup has poison?

Dude, you having a bad day and just taking it out on everyone here? 'Cause otherwise, I'd have to conclude the same as Jeffrey.

Anyway, back on topic. My minions range in age from 11 to 6. I was always honest about what's what when they asked anatomy questions, given answers appropriate to their ages. So far, so good, though obviously the test is ahead of me.

When my daughter was reading a book and said it mentioned someone as 'gay,' she asked me what it meant and I told her it meant sometimes when people start dating, some men like to date men and some like to date women.

She nodded and went back to happily reading.

My worse question happened when my oldest son was three. He was just potty-trained and he came out of the bathroom one day looking very upset.

"What's wrong?" I said.

"Mommy! My penis got bigger!"

Me: "Um...:clearing my throat:
"well, it'll do that sometimes, depending on whether it's hot or cold or you really have to pee. Perfectly normal."

Him: "Oh. Okay."
runs off to play.

You have to learn to think fast with kids or you're in deep trouble. :)

Tom

03-25-2005, 12:03 PM

This is both bittersweet and cute all at the same time.
It usually gets the pained "Awwwwww." reaction when I tell the story.

Still, we all felt really bad that for like 2 months she thought I didn't like her.

west3man

03-25-2005, 12:05 PM

Why does this remind me of the Wallace Shawn/Cary Elwes scene in "Princess Bride" when Shawn is deciding which cup has poison?

Dude, you having a bad day and just taking it out on everyone here? 'Cause otherwise, I'd have to conclude the same as Jeffrey.

Anyway, back on topic. My minions range in age from 11 to 6. I was always honest about what's what when they asked anatomy questions, given answers appropriate to their ages. So far, so good, though obviously the test is ahead of me.

When my daughter was reading a book and said it mentioned someone as 'gay,' she asked me what it meant and I told her it meant sometimes when people start dating, some men like to date men and some like to date women.

She nodded and went back to happily reading.

My worse question happened when my oldest son was three. He was just potty-trained and he came out of the bathroom one day looking very upset.

"What's wrong?" I said.

"Mommy! My penis got bigger!"

Me: "Um...:clearing my throat:
"well, it'll do that sometimes, depending on whether it's hot or cold or you really have to pee. Perfectly normal."

Him: "Oh. Okay."
runs off to play.

You have to learn to think fast with kids or you're in deep trouble. :)
Ha! I've recently wondered if I'm up to the challenge of raising little ones. Geez, you guys make it look easy (though I'm sure it's not).

Very cool. I know there are women out there didn't know that "really have to pee" part.

Ed Cunard

03-25-2005, 12:25 PM

You seem to deal with people on the internet on a more personal level than I do, in these types of discussion I find it easier to erase the person behind the handle, it detaches me from the opposing group, no conflict of interest.

See, to me, it seemed you were (possibly intentionally) misreading West entirely. Just limiting it to the first post of West's, and the first of your posts...

West: "Hell, *I* was doing sexual things for years before she had that talk with me... not SEX, you understand. Just ... stuff."

I think you got hung up on the age, and missed the "Just ... stuff" part.

I recall that Truth or Dare shit started in the 5th grade or so, if my memory serves me correctly, and that a lot of what we dared each other to do back then involved "stuff" (which, of course, made me feel horrible later, considering I copped my first feel that way, and the girl remembered it much later and I didn't).

Then again, I generally got stuck with the "eat this worm" or "shit outside" dares, because my luck fucking sucks.

And I was definitely trying to get ass at eleven.

I failed miserably there. But I tried! Totally would have gotten an "A" for effort.

Ok, that's bragging. It would have been a "C+" now that I think of it.

-------------------------

On the real subject... I'd also chime in with a "wait until they ask," but I'm really looking forward to the day that we don't have to worry how to deal with explaining gay couples more than we worry about the general sex stuff. Not saying that's true in your case, Boldido--just a society-at-large kind of statement.

west3man

03-25-2005, 12:41 PM

Then again, I generally got stuck with the "eat this worm" or "shit outside" dares, because my luck fucking sucks. Good GAWD that cracked me up!

(Also, my imagination's a little TOO GOOD. Ew.)

And I was definitely trying to get ass at eleven.

I failed miserably there. But I tried! Totally would have gotten an "A" for effort.

Ok, that's bragging. It would have been a "C+" now that I think of it.

------------------------- Heh. I hear you.

Sometimes things happen in life that just FEEL like someone was guiding (general-)you, making sure that you did or DIDN'T do certain things before the right time came. This was one of those things.

Funny set of circumstances.

On the real subject... I'd also chime in with a "wait until they ask," but I'm really looking forward to the day that we don't have to worry how to deal with explaining gay couples more than we worry about the general sex stuff. Not saying that's true in your case, Boldido--just a society-at-large kind of statement.*nods*

On the one hand, I feel bad that it never occurred to me to expand my "birds and bees" talk with my cousin beyond the heterosexual. On the other, I feel good that I'd already covered it in a way that had to do with emotions and fairness, moreso than anything "mechanical."

Spike-X

03-25-2005, 03:54 PM

my only advice is to make it about love. Most grownups fall in love with another grownup. For almost all grownups, that means that men fall in love with women and women fall in love with men. Sometimes though, a man will fall in love with another man or a woman will fall in love with another woman. That's what "gay" means.

That sounds sensible, and it's how I plan to address the topic when it comes up.

Solaris

03-25-2005, 07:38 PM

Alright, thread topic: I think almost everyone's covered the "how to talk gay to your kids" portion of the program, but I'll weigh in:

When parents refer, even obliquely, to sexuality when talking to children, most of them are pretty good about couching it in terms familiar and safe to the kid. Any reference to sex is usually prefaced with "When a man and a woman love each other..." -- and that's good. That's appropriate and correct that when first confronted with the idea of sex, we wrap it up in terms of love. It's the best, healthiest way to introduce the concept.

The problem is, this isn't always the parent's first thought when confronted with the topic of homosexuality, because most straight people have a difficult time not making homosexuality just about the physical. It's usually pretty rare for a parent to get into the mechanics of penile-vaginal intercourse the first time the topic of sex is brought up, so you really shouldn't even be thinking along those lines when homosexuality is brought up.

My sister made two minor mistakes when discussing it with her kids. She referenced the "two mommies or two daddies" argument which confused her kids because Desi and I (the de facto topic of the conversation) don't have kids. Then she tried to explain the concept of "liking boys vs. liking girls." This led her 7-year-old to mistakenly believe that I don't like girls. All girls. Including herself. That caused some confusion until she expressed surprise that I was coming to her birthday party. "I thought Uncle Tommy didn't like girls!"

Yeah.

Awwww... poor kid. Glad it got cleared up.

Anyway, my only advice is to make it about love. Most grownups fall in love with another grownup. For almost all grownups, that means that men fall in love with women and women fall in love with men. Sometimes though, a man will fall in love with another man or a woman will fall in love with another woman. That's what "gay" means.

THAT is beautiful, and a very good piece of information/reminder for parents. Thanks, Tom... I've still got one to go, though right now he's still trying to wrap his mind around the concept that he and Daddy have penises, and Meg and Rin and I don't. Heh. (He keeps *insisting* that we gals ought to have one! *chuckles*)

FunkyGreenJerusalem

03-25-2005, 07:41 PM

THAT is beautiful, and a very good piece of information/reminder for parents. Thanks, Tom... I've still got one to go, though right now he's still trying to wrap his mind around the concept that he and Daddy have penises, and Meg and Rin and I don't. Heh. (He keeps *insisting* that we gals ought to have one! *chuckles*)

I remember my little sister trying to figure out the differences.

for a while she used to say what she was going to do when she grew up into a boy like me.

I say don't even broach the homosexuality issue with the kid, and treat it nonchantly if the kids bring it up.
Then one day maybe it'll cease to be a deal.

tempestuousepulchre

03-25-2005, 10:07 PM

I agree with you in that a special talk isn't necessary if you have a good relationship with your child. If he does ask you about something you think he's too young for, my advice would be employ some degree of censorship but the worst thing to do is lie to him or ignore the question. Just speaking from experience, it's best to provide some sort of valid answer.

Rachel Grey

03-25-2005, 11:25 PM

I didn't get The Talk till one day at 14yo my mother walked in on me when I was on the floor, butt nekkid with four fingers in my pussy.

That was not a good day.

venuscameback

03-26-2005, 05:56 AM

one day at 14yo my mother walked in on me when I was on the floor, butt nekkid with four fingers in my pussy.

wow. that's what i call a bad day ...

btw west3man, i just wanted to say regarding my own posts on the discussion of your own experiences. i wasn't saying i necessarily agreed with dosadi that you were lying, more meaning to talk in general about the psychology behind what dosadi was saying.

i have no real reason to think you are lying, especially as i barely know you. so i was saying i could see where dosadi was coming from in terms of his psychological analysis, but not meaning it to sound like i agreed you were not telling the truth. does that make sense?

back on thread, one embarrsing parent-child moment i recall was when i was talking with my dad, sat on the edge of the bed, naked.

as was common - my dad insisted my sister and i walk around naked in the mornings, even after hitting puberty. around which point we stopped complying. he said he was trying to show us that there was nothing wrong with nudity. but somehow it just didn't feel right. partly - but only partly - because my dad was a bit of a lech.

anyway, i was sat there, pre-puberty, touching my technicals and realised that inside the skin was some kind of ball. so i said something like "oh dad, i have little balls inside my" ... whatever i called my technicals back then ... and i was told to stop touching myself there, discovery and questions dismissed.

lol i mention this as an example of how not to do it ...

dlw

Ed Cunard

03-26-2005, 08:00 AM

anyway, i was sat there, pre-puberty, touching my testicles and realised that inside the skin was some kind of ball. so i said something like "oh dad, i have little balls inside my" ... whatever i called my technicals back then ... and i was told to stop touching myself there, discovery and questions dismissed.

Who cares what you called them back then? You call them "technicals" now, and as I've never heard that before, it made my day.

"Technicals."

Awesome.

Sir Tim Drake

03-26-2005, 09:43 AM

as was common - my dad insisted my sister and i walk around naked in the mornings, even after hitting puberty. around which point we stopped complying. he said he was trying to show us that there was nothing wrong with nudity. but somehow it just didn't feel right. partly - but only partly - because my dad was a bit of a lech.

anyway, i was sat there, pre-puberty, touching my testicles and realised that inside the skin was some kind of ball. so i said something like "oh dad, i have little balls inside my" ... whatever i called my technicals back then ... and i was told to stop touching myself there, discovery and questions dismissed.

So he wanted you to be comfortable with nudity. Presumably this was so you wouldn't be ashamed of your body. And yet he told you to stop touching yourself, with no explanation, and thereby implied that you should be ashamed of your body. Those are some seriously mixed messages.

It sounds like your dad had ulterior motives for making you walk around naked.

Puma

03-26-2005, 10:35 AM

My gut feeling is to talk about it when they ask, but that a "special talk" is unnecessary and with a five year old, certainly premature.

What are anyone elses thoughts?

I'm of the school of what until they ask or ten years, whichever comes first

Ayo

03-26-2005, 10:59 AM

It occurs to me that my parents never had any "The Talk" with me.

Once at dinner, PBS had this educational/documentary/technical show about the clinical ins and outs, no pun intended. My mom nudged me to pay attention. That was about it.

I don't even know how the birds and the bees story goes.

Um...years later, in the middle of one conversation, my mom suddenly said something like "You already know about 'Es-Ee-Ex,' right?" I nervously replied something to the effect of "uhh yeah." Response: "whew!"

Fifteen years old is far far far too long to wait. It's also waaaay too old to be afraid to pronounce "sex."

It is quite possible that my parents have never...EVER had sex. If they told me I was adopted, I'd believe it. They're at once totally uncomfortable with the idea and fascinated with it: Jerry Springer and those damn fake court shows always on the television, talk radio about "relationships," among other evidence. It sounds to me like typical quasipuritanical bullshit.

So all parents, if you don't want your kids to come out like me (you don't), get comforable with sex. Mention the unmentionables. The biggest mistake, in my opinion is making the young ones feel afraid and ashamed of anything sexual. How to do that? Beats me. But Luckily for me, I don't have to worry about that.

Spike-X

03-26-2005, 05:10 PM

I didn't get The Talk till one day at 14yo my mother walked in on me when I was on the floor, butt nekkid with four fingers in my pussy.

That was not a good day.
Were they your fingers, or someone else's?

Boldido

03-26-2005, 05:14 PM

Were they your fingers, or someone else's?

And how did you get your cat to sit still long enough to do this?

Rachel Grey

03-26-2005, 10:03 PM

Were they your fingers, or someone else's?And how did you get your cat to sit still long enough to do this?

LOL!

Yes they were my fingers. :D

As for the cat, well a little superglue works wonders ;)

kidding! :D

FunkyGreenJerusalem

03-26-2005, 10:05 PM

LOL!

Yes they were my fingers. :D

As for the cat, well a little superglue works wonders ;)

kidding! :D

what did she feel she actually had to explain to you about that dept. after seeing that?

Rachel Grey

03-26-2005, 10:08 PM

Deflated. I was trying to be funny... Sulks.

FunkyGreenJerusalem

03-26-2005, 10:14 PM

I didn't get The Talk till one day at 14yo my mother walked in on me when I was on the floor, butt nekkid with four fingers in my pussy.

That was not a good day.

But that's too believable.
Well, it's what guys wanna believe.
I eventually managed to convince myself of your twin story, that was a piece of cake.

Rachel Grey

03-26-2005, 10:40 PM

It's not all cum and glory you know, there are some real lows....

FunkyGreenJerusalem

03-26-2005, 10:42 PM

It's not all cum and glory you know, there are some real lows....

I'm not seeing them.

Bakema NL

03-27-2005, 05:01 PM

Age doesn't matter I think. Whenever it's needed you talk about it. My son is 6 now and I talk about it whenever the subject will arise.......what little he knows at his age that could come up. I learn the little guy to clean his li'l friend dangling down there because that's very important. And he asks questions, so in kids' language I explain to him how babies are made, nothing wrong with knowing that, way better than that birds and the bees nonsense. You can't really say an age where you are going to sit down with your kid(s), you are probably too late then anyway :). I'd rather tell him myself, my wife and I are open about all of it, the kid's used to nudity, because we walk into the shower and everything and don't try and hide ourselves right away. A real serious talk about sex, diseases and all that is something I would do around the age of 10 - 12, but it's better to just casually talk about all of it as the kid is growing up, sex is a normal thing to talk about.

venuscameback

03-28-2005, 03:56 AM

So he wanted you to be comfortable with nudity. Presumably this was so you wouldn't be ashamed of your body. And yet he told you to stop touching yourself, with no explanation, and thereby implied that you should be ashamed of your body. Those are some seriously mixed messages.

It sounds like your dad had ulterior motives for making you walk around naked.

which is one of the things i meant by "we stopped - partly because my dad was a bit of a lech"

which was a very very polite way of putting it

parents are fun :o

dlw

Alex

03-28-2005, 03:58 AM

If i have a daughter, she will know sex is a filthy evil thing at age 10.
I figure she won't want to rebel until at least 16, but by that point, i will have broken her spirit and she won't even have the energy to go out and have sex.
No grandkids for me!

venuscameback

03-28-2005, 05:37 AM

i posted some of this in the Victoria Secret's thread and then decided it's more appropriate to this thread, so am pasting it in here too, because it's an example of how my mom and dad tlaked with me about sex at an older age:

i've never understood why men are embarrassed in lingerie sections/shops.

I enjoy browsing with my gf in lingerie sections, and if i stumble across the lingerie section of a store when i'm on my own i might quickly browse alone without embarrassment.

although thinking i do sometimes get odd looks from female shop assistants, esp if i drift off from what my gf is looking at and am admiring a different garment.

hmm, thinking, maybe it's those looks from sales assistants and some female customers that make guys embarrassed.

my gf also enjoys having me with her, as we discuss our taste in lingerie and what we'd like her to wear.

i actually think a lot of lingerie is poorly desgined and suspect it lacks a male input at the design stage. Myndie has been fascinated by the number of suggestions i've made as to how a lingerie item might me improved/made sexier/more appealing to my/the male eye & criticisms of particular garments that illustrate why they're only okay, rather than 'hot'.

this is thanks to my mom; we were in a regular clothes shop once and when we got to the till i saw a small boxed item that i didn't know what it was. i picked it up to look at it and hurriedly put it down, embarrassed (only partly because i was with my mom) to realise it was a discretely packaged pack of condoms. outside the store mom asked me why i'd been so embarrassed and i whispered in a still-shocked voice "they were condoms!" and she was so matter-of-fact and unembarrassed about it, she was v cool. even now i'm impressed by how cool my generally not-cool about such things mom was at that point in time. she helped me understand that condoms, lingerie etc are things most everyone wears/uses and so nothing to be embarrassed about.

thinking, my mom really went out of her way to not be an embarrassing mom. something i only just realised. she was mom, and a different generation, but not an embarrassing mom. whereas dad was more embarrassing and i had many cringe-inducing conversations with him precisely because he tried to show how he was "one of the lads" and knew all about sex etc when with me in private, trying to show hiw "big" and experienced he was. that was so much more uncomfortable, because he didn't realise that what he said didn't fit my idea of fun or cool or whatever, it added to my impression of him as a dirty old man. which my sister and I agree is sadly accurate