Kanye West: Good or Evil?

[Patient Boy]

What are everybody's thoughts regarding Kanye West? On the one hand, his overuse of sped-up soul samples and use of well known songs for sampling makes him almost Puff Daddy-ish, and his well known ego and ubiquity only adds to the Puffy comparisons.

On the other hand, Puffy's never done anything as great as "Get By" or "You Don't Know My Name" and despite flaws in his raps he thankfully approaches subject matter apart from bling and bitches from the ordinary guy's point of view.

So where does Kanye belong in the great canon of hip-hop?

[Leslie Lee III]

Good producer, bad rapper.

[monkeysweat]

When he was an up-and-comer and somewhat "underground", everyone was bouncing up and down on his lap. Now that he's blown up and his ego's grown to match, there's been some backlash against him. Now that he's everywhere doing everything, people are sick of him. Overexposure generates hate. But...

He's still a dope producer making damn good hip hop. And, he's no Rakim or whatever, but I like him as a rapper. I feel him.

...in a hetero way.

He really, really needs to shut his yap, though. Although I find it amusing..

[MicBK]

i vote good for now. agree with pretty much everything monkey said...unfortunately his career seems to be taking the exact same path as puff's did...for those that can remember back to before BIG hit, puff was pretty much the kanye west of that time. only once the fame and money started to hit did his product start to suffer. one fault with that comparison is though certainly not a highly skilled MC, compared to puff, kanye looks like a mic god. bottom line is, i guess - i like College Dropout. we'll see from there.

[Reptisaurus!]

I really like "College Dropout" an awful lot. And I think it's cool that he's dealing with spiritual themes in more than an offhand one-line-shout-out-to-Allah way, which is really rare in Secular Music.

And I'm isolated enough from pop culture that I never hear him talk, which probably enhanced my appreciation of his work, too.

[elheffe]

I like College Dropout too.

[Jonathan Bogart]

I've heard nothing but the radio hits, and they were different enough from the rest of what was on that I liked 'em.

But then I liked JoJo's "Leave" for the same reason. So you see how trustworthy I am.

[Leslie Lee III]

Actually, I prefer Puffy to Kanye on the mic, slight edge to Kanye on the beats.

[monkeysweat]

But then I liked JoJo's "Leave" ...
You are not alone, sir. I just choose to hide my shame.

[Sage Shinigami]

I really like "College Dropout" an awful lot. And I think it's cool that he's dealing with spiritual themes in more than an offhand one-line-shout-out-to-Allah way, which is really rare in Secular Music.

And I'm isolated enough from pop culture that I never hear him talk, which probably enhanced my appreciation of his work, too.

This is about where I stand. College Dropout is likely my favorite rap album, even after over a year. I've listened to "Red Light District", "D12 World", and "Encore" (all done by my favorite artists) and put them down after two or three weeks, heading right back to CD. Granted he's not my favorite artists over all genres, but for rap, that and "I miss the Hip-Hop Shop", along with anything Afroman, is about all I listen to.

And yes, I don't ever hear him talk, though one of my friends that does has called him quote: "An asshole". So its probably best I don't. :D

And yes, I like his beats. Maybe they do sound similar, but we've already done pretty much any and everything original, so at this point best to just go with what's GOOD. As for overexposure...I listen to the radio for all of twenty minutes when I'm riding to school with someone, I never watch TV concerning music, so the only thing I hear for any length of time is what's on my CD player and computer, so I rarely hear him.

As well, compared to current rappers, he's one of the best. So he's far from Evil.

[Ayo]

I have heard...ONE song by this guy.


And that commercial.



*resists corporate control*

[Ilash]

Hey, everyone guess what I think about Kanye West!

Actually, just what the hell am I doing in this thread...

[monkeysweat]

Actually, I prefer Puffy to Kanye on the mic, slight edge to Kanye on the beats.
Seriously? Puffy? At least Kanye tries to say something with his. Puffy's rhymes are about nothing. Seinfeld Raps. Kanye flows with emotion. Diddy sounds like he's reading a teleprompter.

As far as the beats go, you must really like Puffy if you give Kanye only a slight edge. Hell, I rate Swizz Beatz and Eminem as beatmakers way above Puffy. And those dudes are ass.

[zombie]

Seriously? Puffy? At least Kanye tries to say something with his. Puffy's rhymes are about nothing. Seinfeld Raps.

Seinfeld Raps. I like that.

[monkeysweat]

*resists corporate control*
Well, they do manage to squeeze out some listenable stuff on occasion, you know. Sometimes some middle manager screws up and actually allows some decent music to be released to the public. He's then, of course, promptly fired.

[Leslie Lee III]

Seriously? Puffy? At least Kanye tries to say something with his.

What does that mean to me that he's trying to say something? I live in the South so I can hear about Jesus in plenty of other places, and I'll care just as little. I'm no more impressed by his car accident than I am 50 getting shot. And anything else he raps about I'm sure I can hear from Puffy if I cared to look. Anyway, that barely matters because it's not what you say it's how you say it. Kanye's got no flow, and it doesn't help he's corny as hell. P.Diddy just does a better job of masking his limited abilities. Kanye actually thinks he's hot, when he's not.

As far as the beats go, you must really like Puffy if you give Kanye only a slight edge. Hell, I rate Swizz Beatz and Eminem as beatmakers way above Puffy. And those dudes are ass.

Puff's had plenty of good beats over the years. Kanye has had plenty of wack ones. When they're both on point I'd say I prefer Kanye's style a little more than Puffy's.

[KenK]

What does that mean to me that he's trying to say something? I live in the South so I can hear about Jesus in plenty of other places, and I'll care just as little. I'm no more impressed by his car accident than I am 50 getting shot. And anything else he raps about I'm sure I can hear from Puffy if I cared to look. Anyway, that barely matters because it's not what you say it's how you say it. Kanye's got no flow, and it doesn't help he's corny as hell.

See, this is what's wrong with mainstream rap. No one can be silly anymore. I remember hearing Digital Underground, with Mr. Humpty rapping about doin' the Humpty Dance, and everyone was feelin' it! Nowadays, you have to be a "thug" or a "pimp" for people to respect you in mainstream rap. There's no room to just be silly and off the wall.

[monkeysweat]

See, this is what's wrong with mainstream rap...There's no room to just be silly and off the wall.
I doubt they'd let the Fu-Schnickens anywhere near a mic if they came out today. Or Das EFX for that matter.

[MicBK]

I doubt they'd let the Fu-Schnickens anywhere near a mic if they came out today. Or Das EFX for that matter.

used to love Fu-Schniks when i was a kid...lol...another - "Spin 360 Degrees for Blue Cheese" - The UMCs. hip hop back then was more about fun, where as now it's about status.

[Leslie Lee III]

See, this is what's wrong with mainstream rap. No one can be silly anymore. I remember hearing Digital Underground, with Mr. Humpty rapping about doin' the Humpty Dance, and everyone was feelin' it! Nowadays, you have to be a "thug" or a "pimp" for people to respect you in mainstream rap. There's no room to just be silly and off the wall.

When did I say anything about anyone being silly? Humor is definitely still a big part of rap, but if you just write off people as being a "thug" or "pimp" you won't notice. I mean, is Eminem not mainstream and silly?

[Anthony]

I'm amazed. I never thought I would've heard someone favorably compare Puffy's flow to Kanye's. Not counting the rhymes ghostwritten by Biggie, et. al. I'd have to give the edge to Kanye lyrically. He has an "everyman" nature to his flow. While his arrogance is prevalent in interviews, on the mic there is a bit of self targeted ribbing, that you just don't get from Diddy.

A quick snippet if you will
"...apologize to Mos and Qwali. But is it cool to rap about gold if I told the world I copped it from Ghana and Mali."

or

"thought when I got signed I'd say something significant, but here I am rapping about money, hos and rims...again."

That particular honesty that he has with himself is refreshing, I think. His arrogance, which still IMO doesn't compare with Coombs, is him just not being ready for the spotlight.

And on production, he blows Puff out the water

[Eliot Johnson]

Even though I'm not feeling a fair bit of his stuff, Kanye has some serious skill behind the boards. There's no denying that. He is, mostly by default, one of the best mainstream producers out there today. Honestly, he's got some decent lyrical abilities and his subject matter is usually pretty straight (while it's true that "how you say it" is more important, in rap, than "what you say"..."what you say" is still very important). His flow is pretty damn weak though.

My main problem with Kanye, though, is all of his dick-riders (can I say that here? feel free to edit it to ""all of the people on his jock", if not). Everyone, even in the south, is trying to dress like him and jock his style (clothing-wise, that is) and it's ridiculous. Think for your goddamn selves, man.

I'm not Kanye's biggest fan, not even close, but he is a solid artist, particularly considering that he's mainstream.

[DarlingNikki]

puffy isn't a good rapper at all. not only does his delivery suck, but he ain't saying nothing. a good rapper does both. kanye has the words down but not the delivery. however, the fact that he has one of the two sets him apart from puffy.

as for the beats, hands down it goes to kanye.

[monkeysweat]

He is, mostly by default, one of the best mainstream producers out there today.
I love that sentence. Mostly by default. So true. He's still dope, though.

[Sage Shinigami]

Good producer, bad rapper.


As compared to who, in mainstream currently?

[Leslie Lee III]

As compared to who, in mainstream currently?

He's a bad rapper compared to any good rappers. I like lots of rappers, it would probably do you no good to hear them if you've already written them off as "mainstream." I am not one of those individuals who writes off all talented rappers out there merely because of subject matter. I don't care about "mainstream" or not, it's especially silly when most of the "mainstream" rappers today made their names underground and I was still listenting to them when they were underground and I still listen to them when they put out their underground stuff. Again Kanye's subject matter means nothing to me. I care nothing about jesus, and his social commentary interests me about as much as any other celebrity whose forte is entertainment and not social commentary. I just want music that sounds good from rappers, I can form my own opinions on society and politics, and they'll be better too.

[Headhunter]

Kanye's a great performer and producer, not too interested in him as a person.

[Sage Shinigami]

He's a bad rapper compared to any good rappers. I like lots of rappers, it would probably do you no good to hear them if you've already written them off as "mainstream." I am not one of those individuals who writes off all talented rappers out there merely because of subject matter. I don't care about "mainstream" or not, it's especially silly when most of the "mainstream" rappers today made their names underground and I was still listenting to them when they were underground and I still listen to them when they put out their underground stuff. Again Kanye's subject matter means nothing to me. I care nothing about jesus, and his social commentary interests me about as much as any other celebrity whose forte is entertainment and not social commentary. I just want music that sounds good from rappers, I can form my own opinions on society and politics, and they'll be better too.

I was more or less saying that compared to other mainstream rapper, he's GOOD. I didn't want you coming out with other rappers I've (possibly) never heard of to answer the question, because I wanted you to compare him to people that HAVE made it, and then STILL say that he's a bad rapper. And to say he's a bad rapper when you don't like anything he raps about...well, it sort of makes you biased on his skills, doesn't it? :)

[Leslie Lee III]

I was more or less saying that compared to other mainstream rapper, he's GOOD.

Well people have a habit of whitewashing all mainstream rappers as being poor and giving Kanye way too much credit for talking about Jesus. He can talk about Jesus, MLK, Muhammed, Malcolm X, Shakespeare, Socrates, and Abraham Lincoln in a song and he still won't be a better rapper than Jay Z, or Nas, or Em, or Santana, or Jada, or Wayne, or Big Boi, or Cam, or Shyne, or Snoop, or even 50 or Luda etc. Even at his very best his flow is only slightly above average.

And to say he's a bad rapper when you don't like anything he raps about...well, it sort of makes you biased on his skills, doesn't it?

No, because I don't judge rappers that highly on subject matter, and I certainly won't say a rapper is good or better than another rapper merely for rapping about something different. I didn't say I didn't like what he raps about, just that I don't particularly care about the subjects or his opinions on the subjects enough for it to be a real factor. I don't really care about what any rapper has to say about politics, religion, the environment, the media, etc. so I'm not going to give them bonus points for it. I don't really care about cars or rims either, but I certainly don't hate it enough to take points away for it. It's how the music sounds that's most important to me.

[Reptisaurus!]

Well people have a habit of whitewashing all mainstream rappers as being poor and giving Kanye way too much credit for talking about Jesus. He can talk about Jesus, MLK, Muhammed, Malcolm X, Shakespeare, Socrates, and Abraham Lincoln in a song and he still won't be a better rapper than Jay Z, or Nas, or Em, or Santana, or Jada, or Wayne, or Big Boi, or Cam, or Shyne, or Snoop, or even 50 or Luda etc. Even at his very best his flow is only slightly above average.


Yeah. I didn't really think about this before, but agreed on all counts.

No, because I don't judge rappers that highly on subject matter, and I certainly won't say a rapper is good or better than another rapper merely for rapping about something different. I didn't say I didn't like what he raps about, just that I don't particularly care about the subjects or his opinions on the subjects enough for it to be a real factor. I don't really care about what any rapper has to say about politics, religion, the environment, the media, etc. so I'm not going to give them bonus points for it. I don't really care about cars or rims either, but I certainly don't hate it enough to take points away for it. It's how the music sounds that's most important to me.

Fair enough.

Personally, both content and lyrical skills are a huge factor in my fairly amorphous definition of "good." And since I give Kanye high marks in both of these categories, I'd rate him higher than other, more skilled rappers.

[Sage Shinigami]

Well people have a habit of whitewashing all mainstream rappers as being poor and giving Kanye way too much credit for talking about Jesus. He can talk about Jesus, MLK, Muhammed, Malcolm X, Shakespeare, Socrates, and Abraham Lincoln in a song and he still won't be a better rapper than Jay Z, or Nas, or Em, or Santana, or Jada, or Wayne, or Big Boi, or Cam, or Shyne, or Snoop, or even 50 or Luda etc. Even at his very best his flow is only slightly above average.



No, because I don't judge rappers that highly on subject matter, and I certainly won't say a rapper is good or better than another rapper merely for rapping about something different. I didn't say I didn't like what he raps about, just that I don't particularly care about the subjects or his opinions on the subjects enough for it to be a real factor. I don't really care about what any rapper has to say about politics, religion, the environment, the media, etc. so I'm not going to give them bonus points for it. I don't really care about cars or rims either, but I certainly don't hate it enough to take points away for it. It's how the music sounds that's most important to me.


Wayne?! As in, Li'l Wayne?!!! ...Uhm. Let's just agree to disagree on this one. You think he's slightly above average, I think, according to how long his CD stayed in my player and on my computer, that he's currently got the best album out. Slight diff. of opinion. :)

[Leslie Lee III]

Wayne?

Hell yes, Wayne. The kid is a beast, especially with his mixtapes. One he decided to go for about 40 minutes straight freestylin with the DJ switching the track every few seconds and he still kept it nice till the end. Wayne is massively underrated, like every other rapper from the south not in Outkast.

[Sage Shinigami]

Hell yes, Wayne. The kid is a beast, especially with his mixtapes. One he decided to go for about 40 minutes straight freestylin with the DJ switching the track every few seconds and he still kept it nice till the end. Wayne is massively underrated, like every other rapper from the south not in Outkast.

Because rappers not in Outkast, or are not either Afroman or Ludacris (and I'm including Afroman 'cause I like him, but he IS underrated) SUCK. I know this because I'm forced to listen to them, consistently and constantly, living IN the South. They're obssessed with choruses, and don't have a decent, original line between the hundreds of them, except for the a VERY choice few.

[Anthony]

Hell yes, Wayne. The kid is a beast, especially with his mixtapes. One he decided to go for about 40 minutes straight freestylin with the DJ switching the track every few seconds and he still kept it nice till the end. Wayne is massively underrated, like every other rapper from the south not in Outkast.

Lil' Wayne? Eightball's nicer than that cat. Hell, Trick's nicer than that cat and both of them are from the South. I've never heard anything Wayne said that made me think he was even on Luda's level, much less Eightball's. That mixtape has got to be banging, if you put him in the company you've placed him. To me though, until drugs and ego got the better of him, BG was the best cat out of Cash Money, not lil Wayne.

Of course I say this knowing full well, I wouldn't buy an album from any of the aforementioned artists, but I respect them enough to listen to their music.

[monkeysweat]

I'll just say that I've heard otherwise knowledgeable people highly rate Lil Wayne's mixtapes. Apparently they were incredible. I dunno. I heard a two-three minute snippet and was unimpressed. And it's not because I'm biased. I actually kinda like Lil Wayne and would love to hear him step his game up.

[Eliot Johnson]

Because rappers not in Outkast, or are not either Afroman or Ludacris (and I'm including Afroman 'cause I like him, but he IS underrated) SUCK. I know this because I'm forced to listen to them, consistently and constantly, living IN the South. They're obssessed with choruses, and don't have a decent, original line between the hundreds of them, except for the a VERY choice few.

This is true for *most* mainstream artists from the south, but there are many talented lyricists down south that you just aren't gonna hear too much. Big names like TIP, Wayne, and Ball & G have definite lyrical skill. But you go underground in Atlanta and Memphis (I don't know much about other cities), and you have some very original and lyrical rappers. From the quasi-mainstream guys like Playa Fly (the Greatest), Gangsta Blac, T-Rock, and the P$C to the truly underground cats like V-Dog and Lil' Weavah...there's depth down south.

People just don't hear it.