Is it as simple as Quesada says it is?

[fumetti]

Quesada makes me think of a black-and-white movie director saying that color isn't an acceptable reason that his movies aren't popular anymore. That if black-and-white movies were more interesting, he'd still fill the seats.

Well, yeah. That's completely true. The problem is, once people get used to color they generally don't want to do without it.

To keep this post short, let me say simply that folks are now used to MOTION and INTERACTIVITY in their entertainment. Comics have neither. Plus, image quality in movies/TV/games have already surpassed what comics can do. Long gone are the days where Jack Kirby could do what video and gaming couldn't. Now video and gaming can do it all. Well, more than comic books anyway.

So how is Quesada going to make comics more "interesting" to the point that it can overcome its static imagery and lack of interactivity? How can he redirect someone's $50 away from video games, collectible card games, DVDs, music CDs, HeroClix, etc?

Can superhero comics be made better? Or must publishers abandon them for manga or other genres? Should they just be cheaper, relying on bulk purchasing to bring them in? Include puzzles again? What? What will it take?

Any suggestions?

[Steven Grant]

Um... there's always something called content. And technique.

As for whether superhero comics can be made better, of course they can, but that's not really the issue. The question is whether comics can have content that ropes in a large audience. Of course they can.

It's just superheroes may not be (I'm saying may not be, not aren't) that content.

What Joe's really arguing against is less akin to your analogy, and more like what radio producers were saying when TV came into vogue. "TV's got pictures, people want pictures now. Radio's dead."

What happened was radio changed formats, altered content, and now happily prospers alongside TV.

And is often considered a better use of advertising dollars...

[Brenz]

Meaning would be nice. They still pack the house for Identity Crisis and Avengers Disassembled, because fans are told that, hey, this is one you're going to want to pay attention to. The rest of the year, the marketing goes "Please pay attention to this, it's really cool." Whether or not that's true, they get far more success when they (honestly, of course. Dishonestly would erode the hype value) present a comic you're going to have to buy if you want to know what's going on, and of course, you are going to want to know because who wouldn't when it's the kind of comic you'd have to buy? Yes, it's a little circular, but that's the point. Attention feeds attention. Stand a line outside a building in NYC for 10 minutes and folks will stop and inquire if it's a gig they want to get in on.

That's why Pokemon sells. Or sold, rather.

In marketing, being cool is like art in a comic. It's the style, flash and surface that makes or breaks whether you throw in. Being good is like the writing. No matter how cool, it doesn't sustain. The Simpson sisters are eventually going to use up their shelf life, but the Beatles still sell. The problem with comics right now is we have lots of Good and not enough Cool. But cool, as Steven reminds us, is a present. You can't design yourself as cool. You can't declare yourself cool. You can be naturally cool and you can work attentively to put out a cool product, but that's never the kind of effect you get from market research. You get it from a creator (or creators) firing out as much as you can when cool strikes, then being willing to sit down and kick the product around when the cool streak ends, tweaking that which is not cool into something that is (even if it's a placeholder till the next streak), and hopefully working on the Good side of things at the same time.

That's my take. Then again, all my cool stuff sits and sits and never comes out, so...hey. Take it for what that's worth.

[Wig of Doom]

There's the pricing thing also. I happened to buy Baldur's Gate II for $25 and spent some 150 hours playing it, I would estimate. That's far cheaper than comics, something like 1/75th the price even counting rereading comics and ignoring the possibility of playing through BG again sometime. That won't stop me from buying a few comics that I really want, but it makes it easy to not bother with anything the slightest bit marginal.

[Dennis]

i think people outside of comics think there aren't any really creative people doing them. i sometimes look at underground/lowbrow art, and there's some really imaginative stuff there. why aren't any of them doing indie comics. comics just attracts a certain type of creator. and maybe the public just isn't interested in these creators. and without new creator blood, you can't create anything new. you can have mark millar writing a western, a teen comic, a kids comic, a home improvement comic, a knitting comic...but it's still just mark millar. diversity is useless if you have the same comic people doing them.

with radio, you had new blood in the form of rush limbaugh, howard stern, dr. laura, which is very different than what came before.

but i do think the kids now have their brains wired differently, and need more stimulation...they need motion and sound.

so what about the harry potter phenomenon. i'm not sure. maybe jk rowling is just that damn good. it helps that the main characters are kids. kids like that.

and with yu-gi-oh, kids playing the card game are doing what yu-gi-oh is doing in the cartoon...playing cards. that's genius.

with video games, since they control the action, they're the hero. with harry potter, they see a kid defeating adults, so they feel empowered.

and manga has lots of teen characters, or adults who look like teens.

so it's all about ego stroking, which comics doesn't do at all.

[bartl]

There's the pricing thing also. I happened to buy Baldur's Gate II for $25 and spent some 150 hours playing it, I would estimate. That's far cheaper than comics, something like 1/75th the price even counting rereading comics and ignoring the possibility of playing through BG again sometime. That won't stop me from buying a few comics that I really want, but it makes it easy to not bother with anything the slightest bit marginal.
This brings us back to the "payoff". When I was growing up, I used to read comics again and again and again. It's kind of hard to reread Part 7 of 15, in which the heroes spend the whole issue getting into an indecisive battle.

[blast_front]

I've been a videogame junkie since my parents brought home a Sears-brand knock-off of Pong back in the mid-seventies, and videogames and comics have never had to compete against each other for my free time. In fact, my biggest back-issue buying spree roughly coincided with my purchases of a Playstation, a Saturn, and an N64 in 1997.

GTA: San Andreas isn't the reason my pull list has gone from 15 books a month in January 2004 to 4 books a month in January 2005. It's because as much as I love comics as a medium, there's really not much out there worth my while. I still read as many comics as I ever have, it's just that the ones I read come out of my collection of back issues, and not off the new releases rack at the retailer's.

[fumetti]

The question is whether comics can have content that ropes in a large audience. Of course they can. It's just superheroes may not be (I'm saying may not be, not aren't) that content.

What I'm asking is: what's that content?

It's pretty clear that most folks don't want their fiction/drama in the form of a comic book. So fiction isn't going to save the comic book. What information can a comic book transmit better than any other medium? How-to/instructionals? Social commentary? Dictionary? Can comics sell as non-fiction at all? The only thing comics seem do better than anything else is the cheap transmission of colored ink drawings. And there's apparently a very limited market for that. Pin-up books don't do very well. So those who want to buy colored ink drawings want them in the form of fiction. And now we're looped back to our original problem.


What Joe's really arguing against is less akin to your analogy, and more like what radio producers were saying when TV came into vogue. "TV's got pictures, people want pictures now. Radio's dead."

I don't think radio's a good comparison. Radio is free. If I had to pay $2.50 for each half hour of radio, I'd never turn it on again. But TV pictueres definitely killed radio fiction. It's a bigger novelty than comics now.

What happened was radio changed formats, altered content, and now happily prospers alongside TV.

Which really at the heart of the matter. Is it a realistic discussion at all that Marvel and DC can change their formats? They have abandoned everything except servicing in-house trademarks. For Quesada to begin musing that a better produced X-men book will bring in more readers is just wishfull thinking.

If people wanted really good Marvel comics, they'd be buying mediocre Marvel comics hoping they are good. I don't like mediocre movies and novels. I like very good movies and novels. But I don't know which are which until after I've paid for them. So I don't think there's very many folks out there who think even the best Marvel comics are worth the effort to find. And I'd say that goes for 99% of the industry's content.

I don't think it's impossible for comics to be mass consumed again. But I think it's impossible for the current publishers, the current content, and the current pricing to do it. It would take such a radical re-invention of the comic book that it wouldn't really be a comic book anymore. It would be something else. And we already know people will buy something else.

[Steven Grant]

I honestly don't think it's a case of "Americans don't want their fiction from comics," though I certainly have no problem with alternative uses of the medium. It's true that most Americans get their fiction dose from TV and movies, but what that really means is that if we expect to stand alongside those, we have to give them material that's at dead minimum equal to the level of fiction they get there, and if we really want to stand our ground we have to give them more. This "equal footing" thing is what's behind the current push by both Marvel and DC to get screenwriters writing comics, but now we've mostly got screenwriters writing pretty much the same stories comics have been doing for the last 40 years. If we want comics to survive as a fiction medium, we have to start providing something that the audience can't get from movies or TV that (and this is the tough part) they will respond to.

But, you know, manga still screws up any arguments about comics no longer being viable. Manga don't sell just because they're a fad, or a format. Or because of the art. And they are selling, but American comics companies and creators have so far accepted only the most superficial arguments for why that is, because those are the least threatening...

[bartl]

This "equal footing" thing is what's behind the current push by both Marvel and DC to get screenwriters writing comics, but now we've mostly got screenwriters writing pretty much the same stories comics have been doing for the last 40 years. If we want comics to survive as a fiction medium, we have to start providing something that the audience can't get from movies or TV that (and this is the tough part) they will respond to.
Hmmmmm.....

Consider the following.

The growth of the FOX, UPN, and WB has been fueled by the fact that they can make a profit on series with ratings too low to make it on the "big three". Cable networks can make a profit with series with even lower ratings (as can syndicated series).

Comics need even a smaller market to be a success.

So perhaps some experimentation with "out of the ordinary" is due, with enough time to really give them a chance.

[Evan Waters]

It's pretty clear that most folks don't want their fiction/drama in the form of a comic book. So fiction isn't going to save the comic book.

We don't have to hook "most people", just "enough people".

I don't think radio's a good comparison. Radio is free. If I had to pay $2.50 for each half hour of radio, I'd never turn it on again. But TV pictueres definitely killed radio fiction. It's a bigger novelty than comics now.

Not in the UK. In the US, the death of radio drama came about because the old radio networks seemed to abandon the medium completely in favor of TV- they ported all their talent, all their hit shows over to TV. It's worth noting that NPR, one of the few radio "networks" with the kind of production resources that CBS and NBC used to have, still does some of the kind of programming that they used to. The UK still has THE ARCHERS after God knows how many years, there are original audio dramas produced for CD, it's not exactly competing with television but it is continuing as a medium, not a novelty.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

Hmmmmm.....

Consider the following.

The growth of the FOX, UPN, and WB has been fueled by the fact that they can make a profit on series with ratings too low to make it on the "big three". Cable networks can make a profit with series with even lower ratings (as can syndicated series).

Comics need even a smaller market to be a success.


I find it intresting that DC is cancelling Fallen Angels by Peter David - and it is apparently getting picked up by IDW, becuase it's numbers would make it the companies highest seller.

So perhaps some experimentation with "out of the ordinary" is due, with enough time to really give them a chance.

Too true.

What annoys me with Marvels idea of experimenting is that it's all superhero based.
Queseda keeps saying that he tried to do comics differently, citing X-statix and Trouble, yet both were superhero based.
All he actually proved, despite his claims, is that the people who want superhero comics only want a certain type of superhero comics, and those that don't read superhero comics probably won't, no matter how you try and play with the format.

[goldenbrowngod]

but i do think the kids now have their brains wired differently, and need more stimulation...they need motion and sound.

so what about the harry potter phenomenon. i'm not sure. maybe jk rowling is just that damn good. it helps that the main characters are kids. kids like that.

and with yu-gi-oh, kids playing the card game are doing what yu-gi-oh is doing in the cartoon...playing cards. that's genius.

with video games, since they control the action, they're the hero. with harry potter, they see a kid defeating adults, so they feel empowered.

and manga has lots of teen characters, or adults who look like teens.

so it's all about ego stroking, which comics doesn't do at all.

No, Comics like every other media is still about stroking ego. It just that it damn near only wants to rub us aging super hero fans.

Now looking at the list of way you think some things are popular amoung kids and I'll have to say that this only shows that no kid's brain's are NOT wired differently. Kids have always been drawn toward kid characters and the ideal that they can take on adults. And to some extent the same can be said about teens being drawn characters closer to their age.

Those are elements that can easily be put into comics.

[goldenbrowngod]

The idea that any story worth telling is worth telling as a superhero story (and I've had more than one person tell me with a straight face that the superhero genre can accommodate any kind of story, when it only comfortably accommodates one kind of story)

You know on one hand it is true that super heroes can take on elements of any other kind of story (as damn near any genre) but what suprises me is that there can be people that can't get over the fact that there are people that may not want to read superhero stories.

[abbas.khan]

part of me thinks how far you can go in certain mediums or that people have seen a certain somethng presented in such a manner for such a long time that they're no longer interesting. that maybe, theyve outlived their shelf life and are no longer interesting to someone new. when i look at something like star wars or star trek and compare it to something like final fantasy, i start to understand why star wars and star trek are no longer that appealling. granted the fact that if they started to tell interesting stories again, they might just be interesting - the thing is theyre not simply because they've ran out of ways to make it look fresh and new.

i feel the same way about comic books. i've read only two titles in the past few years - hulk and x-treme x-men and they appealed to a more adult me - not the child in me. not the child that would get giddy picking up a simonson thor or a lee x-men book. i wouldnt even know who would be drawing or writing those - i just knew i liked the pictures and the art and that was all. i'd know if the art had changed for the month or that the story wasnt that great - thats how most people perceive these things.

try playing final fantasy x. its everything ive ever wanted in an interactive medium. its like being gulliver in gulliver's travels. can comics even remotely compete with that? can tv or movies?

[badMike]

try playing final fantasy x. its everything ive ever wanted in an interactive medium. its like being gulliver in gulliver's travels. can comics even remotely compete with that? can tv or movies?If one hates playing video games, then yeah most things can compare to it. I'd rather read a non-fiction book on politics, which helps form my worldview and how I act in society, so yeah that's pretty damn interactive. I actually think you mean stimulation. In that case, I'd rather read comic books.

[Dennis]

stroking egos - the writer is telling the reader, "you're special!" with superhero comics, it's more about appeasement, "we'll give you whatever you want...please don't leave us!"

kids may just be bored with american fantasy. they're more intrigued by big eyes and guitar pick shaped heads. what american fantasy can't do well is creating a sense of oddness, which may be the most important element in fiction. you should try to get a kid to react, "what the hell is this?!" kids really love strangeness. Harry potter might be weird enough, cuz, it's, like British or sumthin.

what american culture can do well is create trashy art: loud, obnoxious, sexual, violent, gross out.

star wars is great fantasy, but it does have eastern influences. lotr: BriTish.

superheroes are american fantasy. can it compete with japanese or british fantasy? kids are more interested in crudely drawn manga characters than an expertly illustrated american comic.

It's the Anime Eyes!

so since americans can't create manga, or harry potter, they should stick to what they do best, which is sex and violence. complete narcissism. morally repugnant art. that's the way to go.

they should appeal to kids who are bored by manga and harry potter and hip hop. which leaves kids like Jeff Weise.

[Steven Grant]

I find it intresting that DC is cancelling Fallen Angels by Peter David - and it is apparently getting picked up by IDW, becuase it's numbers would make it the companies highest seller.

IDW functions on a much smaller scale than DC does, so there's not as much overhead involved. But there's also the presumption that the dropoff in sales during transfer from one company to the other won't be significant enough to offset the viability of the project at IDW, which is always a risky proposition. It's unlikely the series won't lose sales as a result oft transfer.

What annoys me with Marvels idea of experimenting is that it's all superhero based.
Queseda keeps saying that he tried to do comics differently, citing X-statix and Trouble, yet both were superhero based.
All he actually proved, despite his claims, is that the people who want superhero comics only want a certain type of superhero comics, and those that don't read superhero comics probably won't, no matter how you try and play with the format.

Look, superheroes are Marvel's identity, like it or not. They're not in business to change that, at least not at the moment.

[Evan Waters]

try playing final fantasy x. its everything ive ever wanted in an interactive medium. its like being gulliver in gulliver's travels. can comics even remotely compete with that? can tv or movies?

Sure.

Not everyone WANTS interactivity. In a game like FFX, you have to work to advance the story, like it's a reward. In a comic- or a regular book- all you have to do to get the story is read it. TV and movies have stories which unfold regardless of the viewer's level of attention.

I like video games myself. But they don't constitute some kind of übermedium which will sweep away everything in its path- they have their limits. They are, first and foremost, games- folks who want to play, to interact can go to them, but when they want to just see a story, they'll go to a movie or watch TV. Video games may be increasing their market and mind share right now, they're in a good phase with lots of talented people working for them and technology which supports it and continues to improve, but they're not destined to wipe out all other forms of entertainment.

[Wig of Doom]

If one hates playing video games, then yeah most things can compare to it. I'd rather read a non-fiction book on politics, which helps form my worldview and how I act in society, so yeah that's pretty damn interactive. I actually think you mean stimulation. In that case, I'd rather read comic books.

I think you have one of the crucial points here. Like other media, one can read comics either for something peculiar to them--following a given writer or artist, enjoying a sense of continuity or having a grasp on the history of a comics universe,etc.etc.--or just for entertainment. (Like Abbas, I am happy to have most of my entertainment time in videogame (or library book) form, for varioius reasons mentioned earlier in the thread.) The question is, what isthat-great-mass-of-people-out-there-who-would-read-comics-if-they-just-knew-about-them
looking for? For those of them who just want stimulation, why read comics if they are so expensive/hard to get relative to movies videogames or tv? The economics, I think, make comics much less attractive than other media. Thus, I'd suggest that comics need to not just the same quality as other media but even better if we want to bring more people into the medium as fans. That's what will get people interested in the long term---the "I've got to have the next book by Marjane Satrapi, I don't care if it costs $20" attitude.

[fumetti]

Here's what I think should be tried. I'd suggest Marvel or DC, but anyone with enough capital might pull it off. The content, however, would probably have to be more Vertigo than superhero.

Create a FREE comic that is entirely paid for by advertising. Like those local newspapers found in used music shops. I don't know how many pages it would be, but obviously enough to hold a whole story or couple of stories.

I think the biggest obstacle right now is simply getting someone to sit down and read a comic. Obviously, they're not interested in spending their money on them. So give them some "appetizers" for free, just to get them into the habit.

The trick is getting them into supermarkets and places like that. Free Comic Book day is hardly more than preaching to the choir. The comic reading habit has to be spread to areas we can't get to with comic shops and word of mouth.

The flaw in my suggestion, though, is who to do it? If Marvel or DC did it, they'd just fill it with their characters. And that's not going to help. The point is furthering the medium, not certain trademarks.

It might not work, but this industry needs to try SOMETHING--and something that will catch non-(but-potential)-readers by surprise.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

Look, superheroes are Marvel's identity, like it or not. They're not in business to change that, at least not at the moment.

And that's cool I guess, though they don't have anything I'm currently reading.
It's just when Joe Quesada justifies it, why he needs to I don't know, by saying that Marvel did try do other things, like people apparently asked them to.
Now I loved X-statix, but it was still a superhero book - they even made a point of showing it was in the same universe.
And a spiderman spinoff book hardly counts, I think, as serious attempt at doing a romance book for young teen girls.

He, Joe Q, obviously feels the need to defend the choice of superheroes only for the comapny, its just that when he does this, he's less than truthful about it.
From memory Stan Lee just used to go on about "Why not superheroes" ajnd beat the drum as opposed to going, "We'd be happy to try different but nobody wants us to, cause we did try".

[Steven Grant]

It's a matter of perspective, I think. From your perspective those books aren't different enough from Marvel's superhero books to qualify as anything else. From Marvel's perspective they are.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

It's a matter of perspective, I think. From your perspective those books aren't different enough from Marvel's superhero books to qualify as anything else. From Marvel's perspective they are.

It's more Apples and Oranges isn't it?

There's a superhero book, and then there's a non-superhero book (comic being the only medium where these count as the mainn categories).

(Why they don't try more different things when Punisher sells alright is beyond me though).

[Dennis]

so basically there's two responses:

either there's a marketing problem (too expensive, not available at 7-11), or they're not doing a good enough job. but what does not doing a good enough job mean. that's like telling a last place team to start, uh, playing better! how do you go about playing better? what if you were in charge of a company. what exactly do you do. do you fire people. hire people. start publishing some stuff some unknown dudes just sent in. what if you were ceo of a company. who would you hire fire publish.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

who would you hire fire publish.

Steven Grant.

He knows stuff.

(and maybe I'd get to read My Flesh Is Cool one day).

[bartl]

Look, superheroes are Marvel's identity, like it or not. They're not in business to change that, at least not at the moment.
I like how, when they experimented with genres in the early 70's, they did it by coming out with both straight and superhero versions of several of their experiments (Dracula/Morbius, Werewolf by Night/Man-Wolf, Shang Chi/Iron Fist).

How big a hit WAS Howard the Duck? Is Steve Gerber still reading this?

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

I like how, when they experimented with genres in the early 70's, they did it by coming out with both straight and superhero versions of several of their experiments (Dracula/Morbius, Werewolf by Night/Man-Wolf, Shang Chi/Iron Fist).

How big a hit WAS Howard the Duck? Is Steve Gerber still reading this?

Conan seems to be a hit at the moment.

Vampire books seem to be all the rage on the indie market.

Marvel used to own one of these and reign supreme on the other.

[Steven Grant]

Steven Grant.

He knows stuff.

(and maybe I'd get to read My Flesh Is Cool one day).

Er... you can read it now... it's been available for over a year...

[Steven Grant]

How big a hit WAS Howard the Duck? Is Steve Gerber still reading this?
For a couple years, HOWARD was one of the hottest books Marvel had. I don't know if it outsold AMAZING SPIDER-MAN but it was certainly outselling most of their books.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

Er... you can read it now... it's been available for over a year...

I had no idea.

(is it in trade?)

What about BadLands 2 then?

[Steven Grant]

No, no collection for MY FLESH IS COOL yet but the singles are still available from Avatar.

BADLANDS II is still in progress...

[badMike]

not available at 7-11Didn't Marvel make a deal recently to put comics in 7-11s again? I think I read that at The Beat.

[bartl]

No, no collection for MY FLESH IS COOL yet but the singles are still available from Avatar.

BADLANDS II is still in progress...
My wife is especially fond of comics featuring things that could theoretically really happen.

[Steven Grant]

Me too, and it's amazing how many publishers don't want to hear about them.

[bartl]

Me too, and it's amazing how many publishers don't want to hear about them.
I know (about you liking them too; my wife LOVED Badlands, for example).

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

Me too, and it's amazing how many publishers don't want to hear about them.

But isn't there more money in them?

The comics that seem to have mass appeal seem to be the one's that are the least removed from reality (even Maus, except for the fact their mice).

More comics have been adapted into film that don't have superheroes in them than have - not that that should be the be all and end all, but a publisher can certainly make a nice slice of money from that.

[abbas.khan]

Didn't Marvel make a deal recently to put comics in 7-11s again? I think I read that at The Beat.


at 3 friking bucks an issue.

i dont buy comics anymore because they cost a lot as it is...

bring it back to around a buck and we'll talk. i really dont care about computer colours and glossy paper.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

at 3 friking bucks an issue.

i dont buy comics anymore because they cost a lot as it is...

bring it back to around a buck and we'll talk. i really dont care about computer colours and glossy paper.

I don't know that works out in the states, but I can get an issue of Rolling Stone cheaper than it costs me to buy an issue of a comic.

[comic_lover]

Quesada makes me think of a black-and-white movie director saying that color isn't an acceptable reason that his movies aren't popular anymore. That if black-and-white movies were more interesting, he'd still fill the seats.

Well, yeah. That's completely true. The problem is, once people get used to color they generally don't want to do without it.

To keep this post short, let me say simply that folks are now used to MOTION and INTERACTIVITY in their entertainment. Comics have neither. Plus, image quality in movies/TV/games have already surpassed what comics can do. Long gone are the days where Jack Kirby could do what video and gaming couldn't. Now video and gaming can do it all. Well, more than comic books anyway.

So how is Quesada going to make comics more "interesting" to the point that it can overcome its static imagery and lack of interactivity? How can he redirect someone's $50 away from video games, collectible card games, DVDs, music CDs, HeroClix, etc?

Can superhero comics be made better? Or must publishers abandon them for manga or other genres? Should they just be cheaper, relying on bulk purchasing to bring them in? Include puzzles again? What? What will it take?

Any suggestions? There are three things wrong with the comic industry : 1 ) Comics aren't everywhere like they were when I was a kid,making it harder to reach the target audience
2 ) Comics are very unbalanced creatively speaking..You have one book with a good writer but a poor artist,and another book with a lousy writer and a good artist....mismatched inkers with wrong artists...etc..which leads to the last problem...
3 ) Comics are expensive....and who the hell wants to pay 2.50 for a book that has great art and a lousy story or vice versa ?
How do comics compete with all the other mass marketed entertainment that we now have ? Hire only the best artists,writers,inkers,colorists,letterers,and editors,and go back to square one.Start with a small established stable of comics,and when they sell well,follow them up with mini series. If the mini series sells well,try another.When that sells well,try releasing a monthly about the character(s).Books will always sell if they are given the care and love of creators that love the characters.... but not every creator can write/draw/color/ink/letter everything....play to a creators strengths and you'll get their best work.

[Lurch]

There are three things wrong with the comic industry : 1 ) Comics aren't everywhere like they were when I was a kid,making it harder to reach the target audience

Hence a move back into convenience stores, along with a price reduction, would make all kinds of sense. I think comics are really a loss leader anyway, with the real money coming in from merchandising and movie deals. But the racks should be big, and feature mostly superhero comics, since as we all know, the superhero genre is the gateway drug to the more creative stuff like Bagge and the Hernandez Bros.

2 ) Comics are very unbalanced creatively speaking..You have one book with a good writer but a poor artist,and another book with a lousy writer and a good artist....mismatched inkers with wrong artists...etc..which leads to the last problem...

I'm not sure I buy into that concept completely, though I have seen it happen. (Seriously, why is Mort Drucker drawing Green Arrow now? Dig out some old Mad Magazines and compare the artwork, you'll see exactly what I mean.) But art is subjective, and in the eye of the beholder, so I don't see that being debated as an absolute.

3 ) Comics are expensive....and who the hell wants to pay 2.50 for a book that has great art and a lousy story or vice versa ? How do comics compete with all the other mass marketed entertainment that we now have ? Hire only the best artists,writers,inkers,colorists,letterers,and editors,and go back to square one.Start with a small established stable of comics,and when they sell well,follow them up with mini series. If the mini series sells well,try another.When that sells well,try releasing a monthly about the character(s).Books will always sell if they are given the care and love of creators that love the characters.... but not every creator can write/draw/color/ink/letter everything....play to a creators strengths and you'll get their best work.

No can do. Like I said, comics are a loss leader. I think the reason the prices are so high as it is is because they have to show some sort of profit. This goes back to poor artists and writers being hired. They get shit money until they develop a fan base, and then they get exploited until they get fed up and either move to another company or out of the business altogether. (Anyone seen Bill Sienkiewicz lately? How about Dave McKean? Barry Smith? I'm surprised we haven't lost Ross yet, but he's such a hardcore fanboy that I really don't think he wants to paint anything else.)

I don't know the particulars of the comics industry that well, but I do know business in general, and the same principles generally apply. Flood the shelves with crap product and cancel the ones that don't bring in outstanding reviews and dollars quickly. The shelf space thing is common in every business, whether it's Coke vs. Pepsi, or Marvel vs. DC.

In short, it's in no way as simple as Quesada says, because we will never return to a time when comic retailers don't rule the roost. Marvel may sell more books and get a few more kids hooked if they invest in some multi-channel marketing, but no kid I know is going to blow their whole allowance on five comic books.

[abbas.khan]

. Marvel may sell more books and get a few more kids hooked if they invest in some multi-channel marketing, but no kid I know is going to blow their whole allowance on five comic books.

cheaper newsprint like we had before they upgraded it in 98. it had a nice darker tone. we dont really need fancy dancy computer colours. the other method would be to use a studio method - using a studio art team to churn multiple books a month with one writer a month.

im more or less pushing the japanese model but you need comics cheap and everywhere - subway stations, railways, bus stands, etc.

[NatGertler]

at 3 friking bucks an issue.No, actually, the comics going to 7-Eleven are four bucks (well, $3.99) per issue. Each has the content of two standard Marvel issues. If folks want an example of what was discussed in the earlier thread, about low cover price being an impedement to getting comics racked more generally, then here it is.

We're not apt to be going to any non-computer coloring method any time soon. The old method, designed for printing presses that no longer exist, was les efficient. One can achieve better quality results quicker and cheaper using a computer.

I don't think it took Dave McKean getting "fed up" in order to decide to make a movie for Henson; that sounds like an opportunity that would be tempting for many a soul.

And in the US, Rolling Stone is $3.95 for a standard issue. (Subscription drops the price to about 50 cents, though.)

[Charles RB]

you need comics cheap and everywhere - subway stations, railways, bus stands, etc.

Are people at subway stations, railways, bus stands etc going to buy these cheap comics? Which comics are you going to offer them?

[hamsterdance]

You know on one hand it is true that super heroes can take on elements of any other kind of story (as damn near any genre) but what suprises me is that there can be people that can't get over the fact that there are people that may not want to read superhero stories. - goldenbrowngod

Yup. I can think of many stories I enjoy that would be pointless to toss into a superhero mold. Remember the historical novel and movie Seabiscuit? I could see a story about racehorses adapted to graphic novel form. How would throwing a superhero into such a story make it better? Yes, I suppose it can be done but it would appeal primarily to superhero fans. Readers who wanted a realistic story about racehorses would avoid it like the plague.

Or take some comics that are being made right now. Autumn, published by SLG, would change by being shoehorned into a superhero mold.

I guess what I'm getting at is that by bringing in superheros it will turn away potential buyers for whom capes, tights and uber-powers are a negative. This is one instance where manga excels over many American comics. And manga Bookscan sales data shows there's a growing audience for non-capes and tights stories.

I can't envision Marvel or DC putting out an Iron Wok Jan-ish story from a U.S. or U.K. writer/art team and it actually being successful in the DM. I can't imagine any of them publishing U.S./U.K. stories and creative teams with plots and themes like Tramps Like Us (Josei - i.e. for women 20-30 years old), Maison Ikkoku (which was published in Japan as a Seinen - i.e. young men's - romance) or Del Rey's upcoming Nodame Cantabile (which won a literary award in Japan).

To see what I mean read the book blurbs below

Tramps Like Us - Life was good for Sumire Iwaya... until the day she discovers her boyfriend is cheating on her, she gets demoted at work and her life spirals toward the dumps. Things take a turn for the better when she crosses paths with Momo, a homeless guy with a colorful past who puts a bounce in her step and a shake in her hips. It takes two to tango, but when Sumire's first love reappears in her life, will this be the last waltz?

Maison Ikkoku - It's Christmastime at Maison Ikkoku, the rundown apartment building that serves as a stage for Rumiko Takahashi's funny romance comic book. And Christmas is an occasion for getting together with family, which, in the world of Maison Ikkoku, can only mean one thing: crazy situations and hilarious hijinks. Godai is still battling Coach Mitaka for the attention of Kyoko, the manager of Maison Ikkoku. But Kyoko is battling with her overprotective, meddling parents who are trying to convince her to leave her job. Meanwhile Godai, who has reluctantly started dating the cute, naive Kozue, must deal both with her family and with his own doting parents.

Nodame Cantabile - The son of a famous pianist, music student Shinichi Chiaki dreams of studying abroad and becoming a conductor like his mentor. Unfortunately, his fear of flying grounds his lofty plans! As he watches other classmates achieve what he has always wanted, Shinichi wonders if he should quit music altogether.

Then one day he meets fellow student Megumi Noda, also known as Nodame. This oddball girl cannot cook, clean, or even read a music score, but she can play the piano in incomparable Cantabile style. And she teaches Chiaki something that he has forgotten: to enjoy his music, no matter where he is.

Sadly, if stories like these were published by Marvel or DC from non-manga creative teams I suspect they wouldn't sell well enough for the stories to complete the entire run.

[abbas.khan]

Are people at subway stations, railways, bus stands etc going to buy these cheap comics? Which comics are you going to offer them?

pretty much.the best place to sell cheap things to read are in transit areas. who actually commutes from point a to point b without having something to read.

[NatGertler]

Looking around planes and trains these days, it seems that plenty of commuters do not bring something to read. I see more listening to music than reading.

[badMike]

Looking around planes and trains these days, it seems that plenty of commuters do not bring something to read. I see more listening to music than reading.I take a bus and/or train everyday in Los Angeles. I'm frequently the only person reading. Although, when I lived in NYC just a few years ago, subway reading was very common.

[NatGertler]

Yeah, well, this is L.A.... reading something here on the train is kind of like going to drinking foreign beer at a Milwaukee bar.

I suspect that there will soon be some killer PSP ap, something that you can get on the train and count on finding yourself in the midst of a game. And that then you'll find peole riding the train all day just to keep playing.

[hamsterdance]

The idea that any story worth telling is worth telling as a superhero story (and I've had more than one person tell me with a straight face that the superhero genre can accommodate any kind of story, when it only comfortably accommodates one kind of story) has killed the business.

I agree with this. It's why I made the post on the previous page about how manga kicks American comics butt when it comes to generating stories with sales successes outside the superhero mold. Again, I don't see a Marvel or DC comic focusing on chefs and chef trainees (ala Iron Wok Jan) ever burning up the Diamond sales charts. No stories about dreams of becoming conductors (Nodame Cantibile) or basket ball players (Slam Dunk).

It's one reason why there's little cross-over between the manga buyer and the comics buyer. I used to think people would buy both since I'm that way myself. A good story is a good story no matter the mold or origin. Unfortunately that doesn't seem to be the case for most comics or manga buyers.

The DM to me is both a blessing and a curse. Non-manga publishers depend on it for survival of their comics properties. But until they can capture the bookstore and newsstand consumer and build a fanbase that prefers to buy at those venues most of their trades in the general market will continue to dwindle.

[hamsterdance]

Found this interesting quote from Publishers Weekly - dated 12/20/2004 - when they talked to David Gabriel - Marvel's sales and marketing manager.

While the classic collections do well in comics specialty stores, the kid- and teen-friendly Marvel Age digest line continues to be the big success story in bookstores. Hitting the kids' market is a "huge" focus for Marvel in 2005. "We're trying to do one or two digests a month," Gabriel said, "but we want to make sure we have the right material." Books like Emma Frost have had strong reorder activity, and both Frost and Marvel Age Fantastic Four have been picked up by the Scholastic Book Club. Often the material that does the best in bookstores is the reverse of what is selling in comics shops. One of Marvel's topselling digests was a collection of Spider-Man/Doctor Octopus that was one of Marvel's lowest sellers when it appeared as a monthly periodical. New digest titles for '05 include Marvel Age Hulk, Marvel Age Spider-Man Team-Up, Marvel Age Fantastic Four and Arana, the Hispanic Spider-Girl who recently debuted in Amazing Fantasy.

Yet more evidence (besides manga Bookscan data) that more mainstream venue customer buying patterns diverge from the buying preferences of DM customers.

[Lurch]

I've read some posts regarding the buying patterns of European readers, and how their general attitude towards comics differs from ours. So I have a couple of questions: 1.) Can anyone shed some light on exactly what those different attitudes are? I get the impression that being a comic creator in Europe is a much more prestigious occupation that it is here. 2.) Does anyone think that a gradual move away from "newsstand" comics, along with the superhero genre, would lead us into an area where graphic novels are the accepted norm, and therefore garner more respect?

And just as an observation, as much as I love the superhero genre of comics, don't you think it's time it took a backseat to more refined forms of graphic storytelling? Superheroes are American mythology, and uniquely American at that, but are they really the future of the business? We're already seeing a huge move towards TPB's, and I can't tell you how many times I've read someone post "I'll just wait for the TPB." It's perplexing, because I don't see the industry moving forward without superheroes, (Ask Gary Groth how well that worked out for him. :)) yet they seem to be becoming more and more antiquated as the graphic art-form evolves.

I'll gladly pay you Tuesday for some input on this today....

[abbas.khan]

subways subways subways.

people read a lot in european subways.

especially comics. i loved german translations of mcfarlane's run on spider-man.

[Dennis]

make the comics smaller. that's the ticket. the new sin city tpbs are smaller and they're selling very well. but of course that's due to the movie...but still, it's the small size that's just so darn cute!

[goldenbrowngod]

Yup. I can think of many stories I enjoy that would be pointless to toss into a superhero mold. Remember the historical novel and movie Seabiscuit? I could see a story about racehorses adapted to graphic novel form. How would throwing a superhero into such a story make it better? Yes, I suppose it can be done but it would appeal primarily to superhero fans. Readers who wanted a realistic story about racehorses would avoid it like the plague.


How would throwing a superhero into such a story make it better?
It wouldn't but it would be funny to see an adoption of Seabiscuit with Superman and Comet of the superpets.

My comment wasn't to say that adding superheroes into a story would make a story better or even should be down. It was just to point out that the people that Mr. Grant pointed out are right on it can be done but they need to realize not everyone want superheroes in there stories.

This is one instance where manga excels over many American comics. And manga Bookscan sales data shows there's a growing audience for non-capes and tights stories.

good point it's sad that mainstream comics been able to or haven't really tried as hard as it could to reach this audience.

[mgs]

i have no idea what fumetti is trying to say, either it is not a comic book reader or is trying to play devils' advocate.

comics are unique, comics have great art and writing. no interest in comics, fine, but take what you will...how many movies/games/ads are based on the achivement and successes of comic books?

why comics are great...they are relatively cheap entertainment for (sometimes) quality reading and are more easily available in a shorter time than the years it takes to make a game or a movie.

dennis' first post had some good statements.

nat, plently of people read on public transportation, it depends where you look. granted, i'm in nyc, just the other night, i was on the subway trying to see what an older, black lady (about 50's) was reading, it was a graphic novel of which the title I could not catch. Other than that, I see more readers than listeners. I do both.

also, comics don't really seem to have the industry power that movies and tv has, do they? I mean, far as I know, there's no EIC or artist or writer guild or anything? You can't just get the heads of all comics together to vote on something can you? fumetti may or may not be a comics fan, but s/he is certainly not really paying attention, now are they.

[badMike]

nat, plently of people read on public transportation, it depends where you look. granted, i'm in nyc, just the other night, i was on the subway trying to see what an older, black lady (about 50's) was reading, it was a graphic novel of which the title I could not catch. Other than that, I see more readers than listeners. I do both.S'Funny, the other night on an L.A. bus I was reading Sandman IV: Season of Mists and a little kid sitting next to me says, "What kind of book is that?" Luckily, I wasn't on any pages with excessive nudity and/or gore. Just sounded like he had never even seen a comic book before. My guess is he was around 5-7.

[Dennis]

i know someone in seattle who says all the men there want asian girls. she assumes this is happening whever there are lots of asians. and comics might be most popular in places with a big asian population.

comics needs to take advantage of this trend: replace all white female characters with submissive asian girls. peter parker dumping mary jane for a tiny sushi waitress.

no more amazonian ass kicking blondes...replace them with 5 foot nothing giggling geishas, especially when they cover their mouths with their hands when they giggle.

[fumetti]

i have no idea what fumetti is trying to say, either it is not a comic book reader or is trying to play devils' advocate.

Been reading mainstream comics since about 1974. I'm worried about the viability of the form given changes in technology and public taste.

I don't think simply writing better superhero stories (which is all that Quesada's going to be permitted to do as EIC at Marvel) is going to cut it. Marvel/DC comics are already better story-wise than anything I see on television--yet TV still draws millions while comics in the thousands. The problem is the form, not the quality.

I like comics. I like the form and I like the content that I'm finding today. But that's just my preference. I know I'm one of a dying breed. For comic books to survive, they can't keep trying to appeal to ME. They need to go get those people who won't buy the comics that I will buy.

comics are unique, comics have great art and writing. no interest in comics, fine, but take what you will...how many movies/games/ads are based on the achivement and successes of comic books?

Relating to my original point: Pulp magazines, Saturday movie serials, radio dramas, and adventure strips in newspapers were also "unique" and created with great craft. But that didn't mean squat. They're all novelties now.

why comics are great...they are relatively cheap entertainment for (sometimes) quality reading and are more easily available in a shorter time than the years it takes to make a game or a movie.

I've yet to see any price comparison where comics come off as cheap. $3 per half hour (if you read slow) is no deal in today's fiction-based entertainment market.

also, comics don't really seem to have the industry power that movies and tv has, do they? I mean, far as I know, there's no EIC or artist or writer guild or anything? You can't just get the heads of all comics together to vote on something can you? fumetti may or may not be a comics fan, but s/he is certainly not really paying attention, now are they.

Not paying attention to WHAT exactly? More to the point, what are YOU talking about?

[Inkthinker]

Shonen Jump has been selling crazy numbers for almost three years now... 300 pages on average, $4.95 a pop. The fact that it's largely a B&W book doesn't seem to hurt it much, either.

I would take issue with the statement that comics are neither interactive not in motion. McCloud points out that comics are one of the MOST interactive entertainment media, and I defy anyone to look at a copy of the best Japanese action comics like Vagabond, Air Gear, Gunsmith Cats, Battle Angel Alita or Tenjho Tenge (even the crappy censored CMX version, which I DON'T recommend you buy... but you could look at it) and not feel the sense of motion in the action presented there.

It's a matter of the creators improving, not some sort of deficiency in the medium itself. We need more people at a level with Ogure Ito or Inoue, and we need them to be producing work that breaks the mold of what the greater social conciousness already percieves from comics... we need more books like Flight, and they need to be getting into the hands of more people.