Dr. Strange & Ditko

[Kirk G]

The second volume of the Essential Dr. Strange has just come out, featuring reprints of the Avengers two part cross-over, circa vol. 1 issues #81-82 or so.

Most of the new book, volume 2, deals with stories after Strange Tales was no longer a split book, and Dr. Strange took over the entire title and numbering... at least, until they determined he wasn't cutting it, tried to turn him into a superhero, and finally pulled the plug after giving him a blue face like a superhero. (Bad move...signaled editorial desperation at the time! IMHO)

Anyway, my question deals with the departure of premiere Dr. Strange artist Steve Ditko. It is well known that he left Spider-Man at issue #38 due to a dispute with Stan Lee over the secret id of the green goblin, and John Romita came on with a bang just in time to reveal Normal Osborn was the green goblin all along.... however, Ditko wanted and had been drawing and plotting it to be Ned Leeds all along.

Anyhow, the question is, at what point in the Strange Tales run did Ditko leave marvel.... what was the issue number and what was going on in the series? Was it "Cleo must Die" or "Umar Walks the Earth" or what? ALso, what year and month was it???

Thanks for helping with this trivia. I am sure the answer is available in Essential Dr. Strange Volume one and over in Marvel Masterworks Dr. Strange.... but I just can't recall.

[Shellhead]

Most of the new book, volume 2, deals with stories after Strange Tales was no longer a split book, and Dr. Strange took over the entire title and numbering... at least, until they determined he wasn't cutting it, tried to turn him into a superhero, and finally pulled the plug after giving him a blue face like a superhero. (Bad moove...signaled editorial desperation at the time!)


I have no idea what the answer to your question is. I have always had mixed feeling about Steve Ditko's work on Dr. Strange. On the one hand, I don't like the way he draws people, because there has always been a strong marionette feeling to the results... also kind of suggestive of those basic art school human sketches, where each part of the human body is rendered as either a sketched circle or a sketched oval. On the other hand, I enjoyed Ditko's depictions of magical energies and weird extra-dimensional landscapes. And those weird hand gestures have always looked cool to me.

Anyway, I zeroed in on your paragraph about the blue mask phase. I remember that, and I believe Gene Colan was doing pencils by then. I didn't like it then, and I didn't like it in the early 90's when it happened again, during that Midnight Sons fiasco. The second time around, it was a black mask with white triangular wedges around the edge of the face. It kind of looked like one of those mexican luchador wrestling masks. Bleah.

[Kirk G]

Yes, I believe the Gene Colan artwork is correct...and had been in place for sometime... certainly since the book split... but may have been in place for several months before...

I agree Ditko's alien/magical landscapes were unique... who else who have two of the mindless one's fighting on a little spit of land bridge that leads nowhere, and isn't worth fighting over? I always liked his sense of these floating bridges...and when Gene Colan tried to take over that concept for "Nightmare's" first full appearance under him, and more, it was wonderful to see the full realistic artwork, but, I'm sorry, the floating land bridges were cool... but they belonged to the Ditko era...

So, where did Ditko end his run?
Anyone, anyone? Bueler? Anyone?

[static]

Strange tales 144 (may 1966) "Where man hath never trod" Steve Ditko, Roy Thomas - Steve Ditko - Steve Ditko - Art Simek

i like Geoff Isherwood and Frank Brunner myself.......

[Kirk G]

Strange tales 144 (may 1966) "Where man hath never trod" Steve Ditko, Roy Thomas - Steve Ditko - Steve Ditko - Art Simek

i like Geoff Isherwood and Frank Brunner myself.......

Wow! You guys are incredible! :D

[RabidWolfe]

and I didn't like it in the early 90's when it happened again, during that Midnight Sons fiasco. The second time around, it was a black mask with white triangular wedges around the edge of the face. It kind of looked like one of those mexican luchador wrestling masks. Bleah.

But that wasn't Dr. Strange. That was "Strange" one of two avatars (the other was ruthless businessman Vincent Stevens) that Dr. Strange created to do his work for him while he recovered in some null-space pocket dimension.

Actually, now that I summarize it, I didn't like it much either.

[Alistair]

The way I'd always heard the story was that Ditko had wanted the Goblin to be some random guy that the readers had never seen before, to emphasise the essentially impersonal nature of evil. Am I led astray?

[Slam_Bradley]

The way I'd always heard the story was that Ditko had wanted the Goblin to be some random guy that the readers had never seen before, to emphasise the essentially impersonal nature of evil. Am I led astray?


This was my understanding as well.

[Kirk G]

The way I'd always heard the story was that Ditko had wanted the Goblin to be some random guy that the readers had never seen before, to emphasise the essentially impersonal nature of evil. Am I led astray?
No, I've heard that also... but if you look at the artwork of the original 38 Spider-Man volume 1 issues... especially the ones after 14, where the Green Goblin is introduced... there is a very, very clear pattern that links two characters, that was going to culminate with the unveiling of the green goblin.

I don't recall how much I have shared before on this, so, I'll try to position it in spoilers below:

When you read the issues in sequence, the most startling feature (other than being green, wearing purple, flying on a "broomstick or glider") is the goblin's evil grin. Even in the movie "Trucks" by Stephen King, we see the head of the green goblin gracing the grill of the head evil truck. What is it about this image that sticks in our collective mind???? It's the huge grin that connects him to the suspect.

Reading the issues in sequence, we see Parker have his continual problems, and except for deviations with the Master Planner , Doc Oct and an occassional flirtation with either the Sandman, Molton Man or the Spider Slayer returning, it's the Green Goblin that returns most often. Paralleling this are personal probblems for Parker in the form of Betty Bryant and Ned Leeds, his rival for her affections, and JJJameson, etc.

There is a classic sequence where Parker is in an alleyway, ranting and raving about his problems, and taking out his frustrations over Betty seeing Ned Leeds, by punching out a manican (wooden or plaster torso model). This is an absolute clue... cause the grin on the man manican's head is EXACTLY like the green goblin grin and Parker even comments on this by yelling at the inert figure.... He'd love to paste old perfect pretty boy Ned Leeds right in the kisser... except he's too perfect... why that manican even grins just like him ...Leeds...and that's when he punches him out but it also is just like the Green Goblin, clearly the link and indicator that Leeds IS the Green Goblin, but Parker is too worked up to see the connection... it's there, just under his subconscious mind.... but he'll come to regret not seeing it in just a few issues.

Now, had Ditko had his way... and Stan Lee not won out, we would have seen an entirely different person unmasked as the Goblin....Not Norman Osborn...

I have heard at times these roles reversed...that Lee wanted to make it our chief suspect above, and Ditko did not, but that's not supported by the artwork. Remember, Ditko was taking over more and more of the plotting and scripting, as Stan Lee got busier and more busy with running Marvel...and so, more and more was being left to the creativity of Jack Kirby, Steve Ditko and others.... and then Lee would come back into the Marvel process and mess it up by re-scripting or dialoging contrary to what they had intended and drawn.... This became a major frustration for these uncredited co-plotters and creative types.

This is supported over and over in Thor, Fantastic Four and Spider-man, as Lee admits he had a poor memory for details and wouldn't remember where he was going from one issue to the next... Dialog and plotting clearly strays from what is being drawn. This is covered extensively in a series published in The Jack Kirby Collector under the six part installments..."A Failure to Communicate." It's brilliant. I highly recommend it.

So, yes, I've heard that theory that Ditko wanted it to be someone not known, but his artwork runs directly contrary...until he broke with Stan and Marvel.... and perhaps that shocked Lee into letting artists do more. Certainly , the departure of Kirby and Ditko before him must have been a wake-up call...

All the above is IMHO, although the Green Goblin ID was first introduced to me in a fantastic publication called the Spider-Man Chronicles in 1980s... I think it was printed by Pacific Comics, but I don't recall exactly. Marvel stopped the publication of the series...Xmen, Avengers, Fantastic Four, Spider-man, and began printing their own version within a year or two.... but the fan publication was something unique and special as it showed GREAT insight and had never been done on that scale and depth before.

By all means seek these publications out on the fanzine market or on eEay, as they are well worth pursuing.

Anyone who can document that Ditko wanted it to be a total unknown, please share here.... :rolleyes:

(PS: Over at DC, Ditko also had the same opportunity in the first six issues of the Creeper.... but again, made the villian someone we already knew...and had met. But that's a story for another day...) :cool:

[Rob Imes]

As far as I know, Ditko has never revealed why he left Marvel in 1966. Apparently Stan Lee never bothered to ask him why either. The speculation about Ditko supposedly wanting the Goblin to be a "nobody" comes from Les Daniel's Marvel book celebrating their 50th Anniversary (Marvel: Fifty Fabulous Years or something like that). I think it was Roy Thomas who gave that version of events.

Only Ditko knows for sure and he isn't talking. Or rather, he has been writing as series of articles these past couple years about his Spidey years for Robin Snyder's History of Comics newsletter. I let my subscription run out somewhere around Ditko's article about the Green Goblin's first appearance. According to Ditko, Stan had wanted the Goblin originally to be a supernatural creature, but Ditko made him an ordinary man in a costume.

I think that the real reason Ditko left Marvel in 1966 probably had little or nothing to do with the identity of The Green Goblin. Perhaps he simply liked better the lack of editorial interference he'd found at Charlton and decided to stick with them instead. Ditko only returned to Marvel after Charlton stopped publishing new material in 1978. (Charlton eventually went out of business in 1985, with Ditko doing some new work for them at the very end.)

[fumetti]

According to Ditko, Stan had wanted the Goblin originally to be a supernatural creature, but Ditko made him an ordinary man in a costume.

The Goblin during Ditko's run was a very generic--albeit uniquely attired--ganglord wannabe. Nothing mystical at all. Matter of fact, nothing interesting at all. I was bored by the Ditko version. I'm glad Lee/Romita changed it the way they did. The mixing of superhero and civilian problems for Parker really added depth to the character.

I think that the real reason Ditko left Marvel in 1966 probably had little or nothing to do with the identity of The Green Goblin. Perhaps he simply liked better the lack of editorial interference he'd found at Charlton and decided to stick with them instead.

There were other issues. Ditko wanted Mary Watson to be an average or ugly/unattractive girl. More of a pest than anything else. Notice that we never get to see her until after Ditko leaves.

AS FOR DOCTOR STRANGE: Ditko's run was a better read than the later issues in the first Essential. I don't know how much of the writing Ditko did, but the early DS was more focused. The latter issues were like one big long run-on storyline that never ended.

That said, Brunner is probably the best Doc Strange artist ever. Just check out the cover of the DS Treasury. Yowsa! Colan was pretty good too, but Colan's all about mood (at the expense of storytelling). I'm also quite fond of the Guice run.

[Kirk G]

The Goblin during Ditko's run was a very generic--albeit uniquely attired--ganglord wannabe. Nothing mystical at all. Matter of fact, nothing interesting at all. I was bored by the Ditko version. I'm glad Lee/Romita changed it the way they did. The mixing of superhero and civilian problems for Parker really added depth to the character.

There were other issues. Ditko wanted Mary Watson to be an average or ugly/unattractive girl. More of a pest than anything else. Notice that we never get to see her until after Ditko leaves.

AS FOR DOCTOR STRANGE: Ditko's run was a better read than the later issues in the first Essential. I don't know how much of the writing Ditko did, but the early DS was more focused. The latter issues were like one big long run-on storyline that never ended.



Yes, I agree with what was stated above. Mary Jane's face is hidden behind a Marigold plant in one Ditko scene... and the bombshell knock-out redhead doesn't appear until Romita unveils her in the 40s something! Face it Tiger, you just hit the jackpot! (I always thought of her as more for Peter than Gwen, but I guess it's more fun to double date with Harry Osborn so a four-some was made.)

Yes, early Ditko-Lee Dr. Strange are almost all one-episode individual comic adventures...morality plays... surprise twists...and it's not until the Baron Mordo-Dread Doromu (sp?) serial that it gets into a long running storyline. You will recall that that was the style that pervaded all Marvel comics as of about 1964-65, especially with the FF, Thor and some other books. Stan Lee felt he was writting continued stories for college kids after getting some fan mail from college frat boys who moved on from high school. And, I must admit, it is that period of Marvel that really appealed to me as I entered Fandom with the Inhumans and Galactus Triology and bought my first NEW comic off the rack with FF #55 when I realized it was an ONGOING story that Marvel was still in the process of publishing. So, the formula worked for me.

IMHO, when Roy Thomas took over many of the reigns and storylines, Marvel changed so much that I kept buying them, but the ol' Lee-Kirby magic is what really kept me through 1970 and Kirby's departure.

As for Ditko's departure.... He has notoriously avoided interviews for years... and I was surprised to see his Dragon Lord story injected into a Fantastic Four annual (#15? 16?) as a one-shot. I had heard that it was his differences of opinion with Stan Lee over Spider-Man's direction and supporting cast, and never getting co-plotting work, when he had been directing the book for the prior two years or so that drove him to quit.

I THINK I read this in the Spider-Man Chronicles publication cited earlier, but I urge someone to do more research on it. Please...


Oh, and as for Lee wanting the Goblin to be more creature/possessed, evil... I don't buy it. And when they did do the (Hob)Goblin possessed arc back in the AWFUL days of Inferno crossovers.... I almost quit comics altogether... bad art, bad plot, bad developments.... yuk! I didn't buy the possession by a demon back then, and still don't. (Thank god someone retconed or reversed it and separated the two again. Thank you Roger Stern for finishing the Hobgoblin saga for us years later!!!!) :rolleyes: