Countdown: speculation & spoilers

[Mangaman]

http://www.popshots.org/wordpress/images/dccountdown.jpg

[Tony Bang]

Is Batman holding Nightwing, or someone else.

[Mangaman]

Is Batman holding Nightwing, or someone else.

Beats me. Find out in March

[the Monitor]

Is Batman holding Nightwing, or someone else.

looks nightwingish to me

[Bat-Mite]

Yes! It's THE FINAL COUNTDOWN


http://club.pcdata.co.jp/music/image/europe.jpg


NAH NAH NAAAH NAH! NAH NAH NAH NAH NAH!

[SUPERECWFAN1]

It could be Kyle. Sweet jesus....theres no stopping DC. I thought they were at least gonna wait til the summer for the next Mega-Cross-over. Please god..tell me Marvel's not gonna rush out something remotely horrible to counter this.

[the Monitor]

S
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This is it. They are finally doing it. The entire DC Universe is rebooting with continuity spinning out of the DC Challenge series from the 80s. :eek:

[Joe Grendel]

Is Batman holding Nightwing, or someone else.
Wow, they finally kissed. About damn time.

[Kevinroc]

ACK! Hal is GL again. TEH SPOILERZZ!!1!

[lonewolf23k]

S
P
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This is it. They are finally doing it. The entire DC Universe is rebooting with continuity spinning out of the DC Challenge series from the 80s. :eek:

The what now?

[stealthwise]

It's just a cover for Previews. It could be exactly what you guys are saying, but it could also be taken completely out of context and spun into anything at all, which seems to be just as likely.

[Cayman]

I'm not sure why Batman would be holding Kyle. Looks more like Nightwing, but it's a little blurry really.

Cay

[Napolean Blownapart]

It says 80 pages for 1.00
written by Geoff Johns, Greg Rucka and Judd Winnik
Art by Ed McGuiness, Phil Jimenez, Blurry Blurry, Blurry, Blurry and Blurry
Cover by Jim Lee and Alex Ross.
Sounds good to me, and the dead guy spinning out of ID Crisis is...
Alfred? I guess we'll have to wait for a larger image or more likely than not, the actual book, but let the speculation begin!

[NickVinson]

is it me or is there something twisty around the arm there? Of the "Nightwing" body. it looks green.

[Cayman]

It says 80 pages for 1.00
written by Geoff Johns, Greg Rucka and Judd Winnik


Bleh, not the guys I want to see "saving" the DC universe.

Cay

[Napolean Blownapart]

Maybe it's John Stewart, then people can add racism to the charges of mysoginy levied against DC.

As for Winnik Johns and Rucka. Rucka can make it unecessarily long and plodding, winnik can make it pc and "hip" (like anyone from that era of MTV is still hip) and Johns can can retcon it out of existence with some impurity in Batman's underarm deoderant or something.

[UniqueFrequency]

Bleh, not the guys I want to see "saving" the DC universe.

Cay

however, 2 months ago in Wizard there was an interview with the 3 of them along with (i think) loeb and one more, talking about how they're working on big plans to both shake up and tie together the DCU...

[Arune Singh]

And....I officially am done reading the DCU on a monthly basis. I think I'll go trade only. And I just lost any interest in writing DCU characters.

Wow.

[Cayman]

And....I officially am done reading the DCU on a monthly basis. I think I'll go trade only. And I just lost any interest in writing DCU characters.

Wow.

I'm curious. How come?

Cay

[Buried Alien]

If that *is* Nightwing that Batman is carrying in his arms, it's an interesting counterpoint to the original CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS.

The Superman, Flash, Green Lantern, and Wonder Woman franchises took major hits during CRISIS. Supergirl and Barry Allen died. The GL Corps was fractured...never to be the same again. Earth-1's Wonder Woman perished. Heck, even Aquaman took big hits (Aquagirl and Lori Lemaris, although Lori returned in Post-CRISIS continuity). The only major figure that did not take any major hits in CRISIS was Batman (although in the years after CRISIS, he more than made up for it...Barbara Gordon being crippled, Jason Todd being killed, KNIGHTFALL, CATACLYSM and NO MAN'S LAND, OFFICER DOWN, MURDERER/FUGITIVE, HUSH, and now WAR GAMES), but if Nightwing were to *die* in the next crossover (difficult to believe, but not impossible), that'd be a DC landmark moment that would possibly overshadow even Supergirl and Barry's deaths. Neither Supergirl nor Barry Allen were the pop culture icons that *Dick Grayson* is.


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[NickVinson]

other dude was Brad Meltzer

[Arune Singh]

I'm curious. How come?

Cay

The tone of the DCU isn't my cuppa- this isn't to speak on the merits of the work, but the fact that my perspectives are increasing diametrically opposite to those of the creators working on the books, or at least the end output.

But if this brings more people to DC and comics in general, I'm happy. That's what we need and if it means little ol me isn't reading most of the stuff, it doesn't matter- more people are enjoying it and that's what counts.

[Cybak]

I'd bet my life that it's Ralph Dibny in Batman's arms...if it's Nightwing then.....wow

[Brian Cronin]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v253/jimlee00/Countdownsidebyside.jpg

Courtesy of polycarbon on the DC boards.

-Brian

[Jason]

Okay. I'm piqued. I really hope this isn't a reboot. I'm mainly into DC now, on account that Marvel is all about the six-issue stories that can be collected into TPBs. And since I read stuff from Johns and Winick (one of my faves), I'm cool.

Here's the big thing...80 page issue...for one dollar. Wow. That's some value, let me tell ya.

I have no clue who's being carried, and the head's all weird. NickVinison said it was a green body, but I can see J'onn. I reckon we'll get more details when the March solicts come out.

ETA: Nice going, dude. Still can't tell who the person is. My gut says "Dinah," but Gail wouldn't lose her without a fight. Speaking of our distinguished ex-humor columnist...looks like her buddy Ed Benes is pencilling. Also very nice. But who is Saiz? I've never heard of him.

[tk421atpost]

Art by Blurry Blurry, Blurry, Blurry and Blurry

Excellent. I love Blurry Blurry's work.

[Rich L]

There be goggles on that thar body.

That be Blue Beetle, that be.

Arrrr.

[Mangaman]

There be goggles on that thar body.

That be Blue Beetle, that be.

Arrrr.

Yeah I think it is Blue Beetle, and I think the current DC regime really hates the JLI era of Justice League
:(

[Mangaman]

Though it could be Catwoman, I wouldn't think they'd kill her off though

[UniqueFrequency]

Yeah I think it is Blue Beetle, and I think the current DC regime really hates the JLI era of Justice League
:(

but why would BATMAN be carrying Blue Beetle's body? why not Booster?

[Rich L]

but why would BATMAN be carrying Blue Beetle's body? why not Booster?


Cynically speaking, because Batman sells and Booster doesn't.

Also, I think Ted is based in Gotham now from BoP...

[UniqueFrequency]

Cynically speaking, because Batman sells and Booster doesn't.

Also, I think Ted is based in Gotham now from BoP...

well that IS true. but i think the body has to be someone who is SOMEWAY linked to Bats. otherwise Superman could be holding the body, y'know?

i'm not sure about Ted being based in Gotham though, he found out about his heart condition in BoP but was still active in FKATJL right?

[Matches Malone]

Spoilers:

That's the Atom, folks.

[sixstringguild]

Spoilers:

That's the Atom, folks.

That would make some sense being that he is heavily involved in Identity Crisis.

On another note, I don't understand why people are coming down on this comic being that it's 3+ months away from release. Let's give it a chance. More than likely it is the beginning of something new being that it's 20+ years since Crisis 1. Time to reboot!

[superfriend]

But who is Saiz? I've never heard of him.

Pencilling the excellent Manhunter series written by Marc Andreyko. Very talented.

[Rich L]

Spoilers:

That's the Atom, folks.

Betcha its not!

[Mr.Wednesday]

Betting on Nightwing.

[kash]

notice the inlcusion of Starfire on the cover. just another reason it cold be Dick.

by not including tim and babs theyr still making it available for speculation that it may not be, same for not putting in his other best friend other than wally, Roy.

o and, think of titans tomorrow, we saw every tombstone and grave possible of the batverse save one that said dick grayson.............



DAAAAAAAAAAAAAMNMMMMMMMMMMMMNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN

please kill anyone other than him

[UniqueFrequency]

Pencilling the excellent Manhunter series written by Marc Andreyko. Very talented.

didn't he also draw 21 Down?

[Matches Malone]

didn't he also draw 21 Down?

Yes, and I highly recommend the book. Very well-done.

[UniqueFrequency]

Yes, and I highly recommend the book. Very well-done.

same here. ended FAR too early though. hope we'll see a 'season 2' soon.

[Mon-el]

Im going with Alfred on this one just by examining the pencils of Jim Lee's it appears he's slightly bald. Not to say that a hero's hair can be burned off...Alfred's died before. I think a bigger impact would be Nightwing though.

Here's what Jim Lee said of the image:

Soooooooo I guess the image is out. Been having to keep this under my hat for some time now. Yep, the second cover that I collaborated on with Mr. Alex Ross and once again, he delivers the goodies. I already like how the fans are speculating who Batman is holding...but good luck.

This puppy has a million things built-in to throw you off. (Can't make it that obvious =duh=). Unfortunately the original was GIGANTIC and had to scan it in two parts. Our studio scanner was on the fritz so the lower half did not capture the gray tones for some reason (= D).

Still, was fun to draw so many DC heroes assembled on one piece and of course, Alex shines an incredible light onto it all. Very ethereal. I like how he improved upon Green Lantern and Hawkman the best.

[tony2074]

batman could be against those...due to his mindwipe. theres still the expected fallout from that, maybe that'll play some part.

also, if it s nightwing i frickion quit...

[Kyle]

Connor aka Green Arrow II is my guess. It's the hair.

And then I thought -- why would they have Batman holding him? I'm guessing because Batman FOUND him. Would they put such an obvious clue on the cover as to have the mentor/dad of the dead character holding him?

You know what would be really funny -- if it was Wally and then they brought Barry back. I'd actually quit reading DC for the rest of my life.

[Michael P]

You know what would be really funny -- if it was Wally and then they brought Barry back. I'd actually quit reading DC for the rest of my life.
Well, unless that's Bart in the Flash suit on the cover, it probably ain't Wally.

And it's obviously Cyclops. :D

[NickVinson]

Note the bits of hanging cloth/spandex from the back of the head. Note the blue-ish color of the body. Also note, the bodies build.

The head bit makes me think its a cowl/mask of somesorts. This rules out Nightwing as he does not(as of now) wear that type of mask. Blue Beetle and the Atom due. ALso note WHO is more prominent on the cover. Hawkman and Hal. Atom had a major team-ups with both in the Silver Age IIRC.

BUT

Then there is wally and Starfire. and why would Bats be holding Atom? Unless he was first on the scene... OR HE KILLED HIM!

In anycase... I have to read this. Damn cover.

and for clarity, I didnt say he looked green, earlier. I said there was green-ish tear/wrap/thingie/wasname on the arm. It still looks green. Liked ripped green arm banding. But that may just be my monitor. Or the lighting. Or Ross and Lee planting more misleading stuff... bastards.

[Indy24LA]

Well the obvious choice is Nightwing, similar body type, Batman holding him, Starfire on the cover, but it sounds like Lee was saying he put some red herrings on the cover and he said something like 'good luck' trying to guess, so I'll go with Captain Ihavenoidea.

[hotrodimus]

and ill just stay in the dark here and say that its actually bruce wayne and the man in the bat mantle is dick grayson

[Ned Leeds]

...also, if it s nightwing i frickion quit...

I concur. But I have a bad feeling that's who it will be. I had the same feelings about Tim's dad and Steph leading up to their deaths.

[muimi]

Wow, they finally kissed. About damn time.

I have nothing of substance to add but HAHA!

[NickVinson]

NIghtwing is my fav. but as long as he dies in a meaningful or worthy way... if it be a noble death. yeah. that sounds pretensious enough.

[DOVETAILS]

Too many deaths round the same time in the DCU right now. What was it before? One every three years or so? Now twenty three a year?

[Bishop_Proudstar]

Barry Allen Flash back from the anti-verse...

The Heroes finally get to see his body only seconds after.....

....something they were not supposed to remember (The Crisis)


Maybe Starfire is there because Bart may have tried to use his powers to find him before.....something that they were not supposed to remember...


BTW: I thought that I saw the top of his Bolt (upside-down)..

It would make sense that The Flash's return would trigger a re-opening of The Crisis...

[Fenix]

The real question is:

Countdown... to what? Another crisis? how many crisis can stand a single universe?

[Cayman]

The tone of the DCU isn't my cuppa- this isn't to speak on the merits of the work, but the fact that my perspectives are increasing diametrically opposite to those of the creators working on the books, or at least the end output.

But if this brings more people to DC and comics in general, I'm happy. That's what we need and if it means little ol me isn't reading most of the stuff, it doesn't matter- more people are enjoying it and that's what counts.

Fair enough. I'm down to Birds Of Prey, Manhunter, and maybe Aquaman myself.

I bet Seven Soldiers will be eleventy billion times cooler than whatever this event is.

Cay

[perfect_Cell]

Its Jason Todd... Batman Kills him, turning Batman into an evil murderer.

[UniqueFrequency]

And then I thought -- why would they have Batman holding him? I'm guessing because Batman FOUND him. Would they put such an obvious clue on the cover as to have the mentor/dad of the dead character holding him?


Superman/Supergirl on Crisis?

[Justin Davis]

Barry Allen Flash back from the anti-verse...

The Heroes finally get to see his body only seconds after.....

....something they were not supposed to remember (The Crisis)


Maybe Starfire is there because Bart may have tried to use his powers to find him before.....something that they were not supposed to remember...


BTW: I thought that I saw the top of his Bolt (upside-down)..

It would make sense that The Flash's return would trigger a re-opening of The Crisis...

Best theory I've heard so far.

[Buried Alien]

Barry Allen Flash back from the anti-verse...

The Heroes finally get to see his body only seconds after.....

....something they were not supposed to remember (The Crisis)


Maybe Starfire is there because Bart may have tried to use his powers to find him before.....something that they were not supposed to remember...


BTW: I thought that I saw the top of his Bolt (upside-down)..

It would make sense that The Flash's return would trigger a re-opening of The Crisis...

I don't know if that'd work. The current DCU knows that there was a Crisis, and that the Barry Allen Flash died to stop it. What they *don't* know, however, is that they're remembering it all wrong.


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Jeff O.]

....The Superman, Flash, Green Lantern, and Wonder Woman franchises took major hits during CRISIS. Supergirl and Barry Allen died. The GL Corps was fractured...never to be the same again. Earth-1's Wonder Woman perished. Heck, even Aquaman took big hits (Aquagirl and Lori Lemaris, although Lori returned in Post-CRISIS continuity). The only major figure that did not take any major hits in CRISIS was Batman....

Just as an aside, Buried, I sure thought Batman took a major CRISIS hit in losing The Huntress (Helena Wayne). She was his "niece" in the sense that she called him "Uncle Bruce." She was the daughter that he, himself, might have had one day. I mean, if a "Bruce Wayne" was born on Earth-Two many years before a "Bruce Wayne" was born on Earth-One, it's possible that a "Helena Wayne" would've been born on Earth-One someday (if that world had continued). With Helena's father gone, she needed the Earth-One Batman so much. She visited Earth-One, and Batman also saw her during JLA-JSA team-ups. The Huntress was even given the live-action treatment (albeit on LEGENDS OF THE SUPERHEROES, with Adam West's Batman and Burt Ward's Robin) years before Supergirl came to live-action. (I realize Supergirl was probably optioned by the Salkinds early on, though.)

Though a number of fans didn't like Power Girl being changed into an Atlantean, in my experiences fans still thought of the post-Crisis Power Girl as basically the same person or character (soul, if you will) as the pre-Crisis Power Girl. With the post-Crisis Huntress (Helena Bertinelli), in my experiences a majority of fans thought of her as a different character than the pre-Crisis Helena Wayne (as opposed to thinking of her as Helena Wayne reborn in the post-Crisis universe) -- no matter what DC's original intent may have been. Over on DC's official Message Boards, there are still fans asking for Helena Wayne to come back. (Don't worry, I won't bring Helena Kyle into this. ;) ) It seems to me that a majority of early post-Crisis readers might have considered the two "Helena"s as much connected to one another as the Matrix Supergirl was to Kara Zor-El -- and nothing more. (Well, maybe a bit more, with Joe Staton having drawn both Helena Wayne and Helena Bertinelli.) The Crisis took away Superman's memories of Kara, and Batman's memories of Helena Wayne.

Now, it can also be argued that Dick Grayson (Nightwing) today is the same character as the Dick Grayson (Robin) who was introduced in DETECTIVE COMICS # 38 in 1940, and that the Earth-Two Robin was really a variant. Or it can be argued that the Earth-Two Robin was the original Robin, and that it truly was comics' first sidekick who died in the Crisis. The Earth-One Batman had started to know the Earth-Two Robin better, through their meetings in THE BRAVE AND THE BOLD and WORLD'S FINEST. There are many who considered the Earth-Two Robin's death to be a real hit to the Batman mythos -- and to their reading enjoyment. If only Batman had a chance to properly mourn these two members of the Batman Family....

The erasure of The Huntress and the Earth-Two Robin (http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/19775952726.1.GIF) (and the Earth-Two Batman) from continuity surely changed the history of the Justice Society, as well.

And now back to the future....

[Forsaken_One]

Over on DC's official Message Boards, there are still fans asking for Helena Wayne to come back.

I just have to point out that on the DC message boards there's someone or some group asking for everyone to come back. There's some that want to revive Stephanie Brown, others who want Huntress back as a legacy JSA character, others wanted Kara Zor-el back as Supergirl when Linda was around, now there are people complaining about Linda being gone while Kara's back. People want Jason Todd back, they wanted Krypto back and I'm sure there are some who want the supercat and superhorse back as well. There are orginizations for bringing back Hal, keeping Kyle, upgrading John or Guy, hell there's probably one out there for the green lantern chipmunk back. If there's a dead or changed character out there then there's someone, probably on the DC message boards, who is willing to bitch about it. So that really doesn't say much.

And I still think it's nightwing. My guess is they're saying "good luck" to throw people off the obvious answer.

[Jack Tango]

Given what Jim Lee has said...

And ignoring the other characters on the cover...

And after using photoshop to up the contrast and darken the image...

I see a few things:

1) The colour of the suit is much like Nightwing's. This, of course, is the most obvious guess. However, due to the overall purple/blue-ish tinge to the image, it could just be lit incorrectly.

2) The pencilled image shows a general lack of hair, or at least of dark hair. This would lead us away from a character like Kyle Rayner, or Blue Beetle.

3) The painted image appears to show goggles, but the pencils do not. I'd assume the character is not wearing a cowl/mask.

4) While not on the pencilled image, the painted image (when the brighntess is turned down, and contrast up) shows what appears to be a different textured material just before the sleeve tears. It could be the start of a different colour to the uniform, or just a single new texture just above the forearm.

There's just something about the picture, the way the heroes are responding to it, the potentiality of the project, and the name itself that implies something really, really, huge is happening here.

Like, say, Barry Allen?

Then again, red herrings abound...

[Jason]

Theory: there might be the Flash. Barry Allen, that is. Think about it...Wally West made a deal with Spectre that the world would not only forget Wally was the Flash, but that Barry was the Flash before him. Now...with Hal Jordan no longer being the Spectre (and who fills that ghostly robe would make for another story), the world remembers again. Only this time, there's a horrible backlash, and...something. Okay, didn't think this through, but I feel I'm onto something.

ETA: We have another countdown. According to Comics Continuum, DC's March solicts come out Monday at 5 p.m. Reaslistically, there probably won't be much new info, but it should whet our appetites.

[The Xenos]

I want to say the person Batman is holding is female. Plus she looks bald. Could be wrong. It is rather blurry.

Man, isn't that pose overused for DC events? Crisis on Infnate Earths with Supergirl, Death in the family with Jason Todd.

And.. if this is Nightwing... really, can DC *&#($ up this former Robin and the current Robin's life any more. Robin, Dick Grayson, has been my faovrite character since I was a kid. This past year has been so crpapy for him and eeven the new Robin, I didn't think DC could make it worse. Killing him now.. I can acutally seeing them going that extra stupid step.

-Xenos

[LtMarvel]

!!!!

I got it!

It's the Earth-2 Green Arrow, who's been wondering around Earth since Crisis!

[CjP]

Anyone else notice that that's most definitely Hal Jordan in the GL role?

[bannermanonemillion]

Anyone else notice that that's most definitely Hal Jordan in the GL role?

In his post-Rebirth costume no less. ;)

[Buried Alien]

Just as an aside, Buried, I sure thought Batman took a major CRISIS hit in losing The Huntress (Helena Wayne). She was his "niece" in the sense that she called him "Uncle Bruce." She was the daughter that he, himself, might have had one day. I mean, if a "Bruce Wayne" was born on Earth-Two many years before a "Bruce Wayne" was born on Earth-One, it's possible that a "Helena Wayne" would've been born on Earth-One someday (if that world had continued). With Helena's father gone, she needed the Earth-One Batman so much. She visited Earth-One, and Batman also saw her during JLA-JSA team-ups. The Huntress was even given the live-action treatment (albeit on LEGENDS OF THE SUPERHEROES, with Adam West's Batman and Burt Ward's Robin) years before Supergirl came to live-action. (I realize Supergirl was probably optioned by the Salkinds early on, though.)

Though a number of fans didn't like Power Girl being changed into an Atlantean, in my experiences fans still thought of the post-Crisis Power Girl as basically the same person or character (soul, if you will) as the pre-Crisis Power Girl. With the post-Crisis Huntress (Helena Bertinelli), in my experiences a majority of fans thought of her as a different character than the pre-Crisis Helena Wayne (as opposed to thinking of her as Helena Wayne reborn in the post-Crisis universe) -- no matter what DC's original intent may have been. Over on DC's official Message Boards, there are still fans asking for Helena Wayne to come back. (Don't worry, I won't bring Helena Kyle into this. ;) ) It seems to me that a majority of early post-Crisis readers might have considered the two "Helena"s as much connected to one another as the Matrix Supergirl was to Kara Zor-El -- and nothing more. (Well, maybe a bit more, with Joe Staton having drawn both Helena Wayne and Helena Bertinelli.) The Crisis took away Superman's memories of Kara, and Batman's memories of Helena Wayne.

Now, it can also be argued that Dick Grayson (Nightwing) today is the same character as the Dick Grayson (Robin) who was introduced in DETECTIVE COMICS # 38 in 1940, and that the Earth-Two Robin was really a variant. Or it can be argued that the Earth-Two Robin was the original Robin, and that it truly was comics' first sidekick who died in the Crisis. The Earth-One Batman had started to know the Earth-Two Robin better, through their meetings in THE BRAVE AND THE BOLD and WORLD'S FINEST. There are many who considered the Earth-Two Robin's death to be a real hit to the Batman mythos -- and to their reading enjoyment. If only Batman had a chance to properly mourn these two members of the Batman Family....

The erasure of The Huntress and the Earth-Two Robin (http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/19775952726.1.GIF) (and the Earth-Two Batman) from continuity surely changed the history of the Justice Society, as well.

And now back to the future....


Looking back upon it, Jeff, you're right. I overlooked the fact that CRISIS did take its toll on the Batman Family through the Earth-2 Robin and Huntress. All those other casualties I mentioned were Earth-1 folks, so when I saw that the Earth-1 family got out of CRISIS more or less unscathed, I made the errant conclusion that the entire Batfamily got out of the Crisis easily. Not so, as you've pointed out.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Buried Alien]

You know, it just occurred to me that alot of us are assuming (probably because of IDENTITY CRISIS and WAR GAMES) that whomever Batman's holding in that picture must be some familiar character from the regular DCU, but since there are also rumors going that this is related to CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS and the Multiverse, it's possible that whomever Batman is holding is some figure from the *Pre-CRISIS* Multiverse.


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Brian R]

Well, Im all for jumping the gun normally, but shouldnt we at least wait for the solicits before we start talking about burning all our DC books? I like the writers and the artists doing it, so I am willing to give it a chance at the very least.

Sure, I would be mad if they killed Dick, he is one of the coolest characters in the DCU, but its not like I would drop any DC books just because of that fact. However, I think it just might be Dick, remember how everyone thought he was gonna die in IC because his title is doing the "Year One" thing? Well, that would fit just as well with this scenario, wouldnt it?

[NickVinson]

i... th... Hey. Thats right. Well damn now my noodle's baked.

[NickVinson]

Well, Im all for jumping the gun normally, but shouldnt we at least wait for the solicits before we start talking about burning all our DC books? I like the writers and the artists doing it, so I am willing to give it a chance at the very least.

Sure, I would be mad if they killed Dick, he is one of the coolest characters in the DCU, but its not like I would drop any DC books just because of that fact. However, I think it just might be Dick, remember how everyone thought he was gonna die in IC because his title is doing the "Year One" thing? Well, that would fit just as well with this scenario, wouldnt it?

Hey, IC aint quite over yet. SO he still might die. :D

[Lex]

I'm not speculating about this. Jim Lee as good as said that they designed this cover to throw us off. Batman's holding him/her? Starfire is there? Is it Nightwing? Alfred? Blue Beetle? I don't think so. Right now I'm not sure anyone will actually die like the cover wants us to think. They thought every detail out and wanted the internet speculation engine running overtime.

Normally, that built-in super-hype might turn me off to a project. But this is 80 pages for a buck that includes some of my favorite creators. And, if the amount of work they put into this cover is any indication of the work they've put into the rest of the project, it should be really fun.

[Apathy Boy]

Bleh, not the guys I want to see "saving" the DC universe.

CayI hear ya. I'm going to pick the first issue up because of the page count, the price and the artists, but I'm not expecting to like it.

When DC gives someone like Ed Brubaker a shot at writing a crossover, I'll get excited.

[Apathy Boy]

Here's my almost certainly incorrect prediction on who's on the cover of COUNTDOWN:

Roy Harper, Arsenal.

Here's my reasoning:

1. I assume this crossover is going to spin out of IDENTITY CRISIS. From that book, we've already seen a schism developing within the superhero community. This interview with Geoff Johns (http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=21975) states that "the relationship between the older and younger generations has been cleaved, nearly clean, and the younger heroes no longer trust their elders." I'm guessing the death will be something that widens that divide. Therefore, the Teen Titans/Outsiders corner of the DCU will figure prominently in COUNTDOWN.

2. We know from IDENTITY CRISIS that Deathstroke has a mad-on for Oliver Queen. Killing Roy Harper might be a decent revenge. (And Roy doesn't have a secret ID, does he? Even if he did, Slade could figure it out easily.)

3. The Batman connection. Solicitations for upcoming OUTSIDERS say that (spoilers) Batman's going to piss off Nightwing somehow. Presumably, we find out Bruce is Roy's Deep Throat. Besides, the optimist in me thinks that DC couldn't possibly dump more angst on Bruce by killing Dick. (Knock on wood! Uh, pun not intended.)

4. The corpse in the pencil sketch sure looks like it could have Roy's hair and costume, but I don't know how to explain the colours in the finished version.

5. If Roy's the victim, that would explain why Johns and Winick are involved. I don't know how Rucka would fit in, though. Maybe because Wonder Woman disapproves of the Titans.

Like I said, probably wrong. And I'm not a regular OUTSIDERS reader, so there might be a glaringly obvious error in my reasoning.

[yenaled]

The only error I can find is that Green Arrow isn't featured in the picture. He would at least be holding the body or be standing there watching.

[bannermanonemillion]

2. We know from IDENTITY CRISIS that Deathstroke has a mad-on for Oliver Queen. Killing Roy Harper might be a decent revenge. (And Roy doesn't have a secret ID, does he? Even if he did, Slade could figure it out easily.)




Like your reasoning, but for one tiny problem. If Slade wanted to hurt Roy, he'd go after Lian. And it'd fit in with Slade's "kids-have-no-business-living-this-kind-of-life" philosophy. This is the same guy that blew Impulse's knee off.

[Expletive Deleted]

This is the same guy that blew Impulse's knee off.Wasn't that Jericho's influence, though? It's been a while since I've read those issues, but I don't think Slade was in control of his actions at that point.

[Oggar]

I'm going with Elongated Man. After Identity Crisis he'll be a familiar face. He's got little else left going for him in the DCU with Plastic Man around he's redundant and expendable. Also the pencil drawing certainly makes it look like a light haired man with a slightly receeding hairline and a very pointed chin. All very much in accordance with Ralph's IC depiction.

[Geardaddy]

It does look to be Nightwing, but there's nothing in the picture that indicates that the person Batman is holding is dead. I think someone may have just messed up Dick something fierce!

[Gingold]

There's a limited number of characters who it could be who would make this an actual event (and since most of them are on already depicted on the cover, it's easier to narrow down to who it might be)-

Nightwing- the most obvious choice, it certainly looks like him at first glance, he has the strongest tie with Batman, it nicely parallels the Superman/Kara cover from Crisis, Starfire is prominently pictured, his book's doing the Year 1 thing instead of telling new stories...So much points to Dick, that it can't possiblly be him, could it?

Kyle Rayner- the figure also has his hair and body type. He's expendable if Hal's back. Alex Ross hates the character and would probably jump at the chance to draw a cover showing his death. But if they're going to kill him off, I'd assume they'd do it in GL: Rebirth, where they've already set up the opportunity.

Atom- If he's really the guilty party in ID Crisis, maybe he goes on the run and Batman has to bring him in, as has been speculated round these parts before.

Superboy- It looks a little like him too.

Other major characters not pictured- Jay Garrick, Tim Drake, Alan Scott, Billy Batson (though the picture looks too big to be Billy and too small to be Captain Marvel), Plastic Man, Ollie Queen (can't imagine they'd kill him again though, and the figure is definitely clean shaven), Connor Hawke (not sure if he's really a major character), Ralph Dibny (ditto), Alfred, Lex Luthor (the character sure looks like he has hair, though), Joker, Jimmy Olsen, Barry Allen. Of course, I'm assuming the character is male- maybe it's Dinah, Lois, Catwoman, Oracle, or Zatanna.

If there's some tie-in to Crisis 2, I supose it could be a character with ties to that series: Superman of Earth 2, Pariah, Psycho Pirate, or Alex Luthor Jr.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

[Loren]

2) The pencilled image shows a general lack of hair, or at least of dark hair. This would lead us away from a character like Kyle Rayner, or Blue Beetle.

Personally, I think the painted image shows the body to be wearing a skullcap. The costume's material appears to reach up to the back of the chin, and then continues up the left cheek. (Nightwing's costume doesn't do that, btw.) The head is pretty smooth, and more or less the same color.

This, combined with the goggles, makes me wonder whether the body's costume can be determinative at all. It could easily be a hero dressed in an alternative outfit, possibly by a villain for the purpose of torture.

Loren

[NickVinson]

Atom- If he's really the guilty party in ID Crisis, maybe he goes on the run and Batman has to bring him in, as has been speculated round these parts before.


Id pay to see that. OH yes I would.

or assuming this much: IC is a huge frame up on Ray Palmer. So effectively Ray is like the Fugitive. he is on the lamb trying to find who murdered Sue. and Batman brings him down. Or Ralph and Batman.

[Jack Tango]

It's Barry Allen.

Countdown to Crisis 2.

Screw with the picture in photoshop, alter the spectrum a little to remove the excessive blue, brighten it up and strengthen the contrast, and the costume resembles a dark-red body suit.

I'm hedging my bets on this one.

[cactusmaac]

Agreed.

Has to be Barry.

I think Wally's going to be killed off and replaced with Bart.

[Leslie Lee III]

That would make some sense being that he is heavily involved in Identity Crisis.

On another note, I don't understand why people are coming down on this comic being that it's 3+ months away from release. Let's give it a chance.

Give a comic a chance? NEVER! This is the internet.

[Jonah Weiland]

Judd Winick spoke with CBR News for a brief chat about "DC Countdown."

http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=4538

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I'm gonna add this to my pull list come March. 80 Pages for a buck Is a damn bargin! I Can't wait to see how things spin off and how this 2 to 3 year storyline plays out!

[HumanTorch09]

This looks awesome! It's 3 days after my birthday and it will be a great buy!

[marshal99]

They probably figure once they hook u in with $1 , the rest of the series will probably be sold at $6.95 each. ;)

Another big hype , probably another big letdown.

[bannermanonemillion]

My worry?

Winnick kept saying that it's an outgrowth if IC. As if it's a very good thing.

Lesse here, what have we gotten so far?

Corrupted heroes.
Retconned rape.
Out-of-character moments left and right.
That friggin' Deathstroke fight.

*sigh*

I really really really want this to be good, but I'm concerned.

Not automatically saying it'll suck, but I'm concerned is all.

[Deathstroke]

Another Crisis a-coming?

Dear god I hope this isn't true.

[mckracken]

Whats the DC doing before Countdown? Maybe someone might confuse Batman for a Marvel guy?`

Poor title either way.

[Altered Ego]

I can't wait!
Looks great. I love the artists and writers involved and I love a big huge freakin' event like this.
And I love Identity Crisis too.
Good stuff....

[Ontir]

I'm glad IC isn't a neccesity for this one. I bought the first issue or two, skimmed the next, and decided I'd rather spend my money on just about anything else!

Hopefully, this mega-cross-over-epic will be more interesting and signifigant. I'm not really up for a marketing ploy disguised as a story.

[Leslie Lee III]

Nice interview, I can't wait for this thing. And it's 80 pages for a dollar! With 3 of the best writers today. That can't be beat. Good to see DC taking the IC ball and running with it.

[Geardaddy]

Nice interview, I can't wait for this thing. And it's 80 pages for a dollar! With 3 of the best writers today. That can't be beat. Good to see DC taking the IC ball and running with it.


I agree. That interview with Judd has me really anticipating the next couple of years at DC! I love Meltzer's IC, and if that has started the ball rolling, then this is going to be a great ride.

:D

[muimi]

I am so getting this when it comes out.

[kash]

CANT WAIT


o and Batman;s holding Jason Todd :p


j/k

judd geoff and rucka can't wait for this masterpiece in the making.

but one thing


WHERE THE HELL IS OLIVER???????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[TopJack]

Sorry. Can't seem to get too excited about this.

It reeks of gimmick. Not to mention that eternally cliched pose of a dead hero in the arms of another.

Does anyone doubt there will be some body count here? Could be totally wrong, though. But judging by the recent track record of such events, more characters will likely bite the dust.

The artists involved are top notch. But the writers other than John's...no thanks.

Rucka has become the poster child for decompressionist storytelling ("Elektra," "Wolverine," "Gotham Central," "Wonder Woman"), an intolerable trend that seems to be nearing its end. Winnick....no comment. Other than it scares me that the future of the DCU is in his hands. Correction: terrfies me.

[Leslie Lee III]

Does anyone doubt there will be some body count here? Could be totally wrong, though. But judging by the recent track record of such events, more characters will likely bite the dust.

Flawed heroes, characters dying, it's ridiculous! It remids me of the horsecrap that hack Shakespeare used to write.

[Lex]

I'm not convinced that anyone will die. Jim Lee said that they designed the cover for the internet speculation machine. Who knows what's actually going to be in it?

I'm really interested in this project. It's 80-pages of story for one dolla. And I love almost all of the creators working on it. Geoff Johns, Greg Rucka, Rags Morales, Alex Ross, etc. Wow. I can't wait!

[Forsaken_One]

Flawed heroes, characters dying, it's ridiculous! It remids me of the horsecrap that hack Shakespeare used to write.

Are you seriously comparing Winnick, Rucka, and Johns to Shakespeare? o_O

[Dee3]

Flawed heroes, characters dying, it's ridiculous! It remids me of the horsecrap that hack Shakespeare used to write.
What? Shakespeare was one of the most phenomenal playwrites that ever existed. His work has no conparison his sonnets are beautiful.
**wonders if she should send PM to him*** :mad: because what this fan girl is thinking is bad.

Like I said to gail about bradley over in yabs

They might be good but they do not hold a torch to Shakespeare

[Leslie Lee III]

Are you seriously comparing Winnick, Rucka, and Johns to Shakespeare? o_O

The entire thing IC was about was bringing the elements of tragedy that the Greeks started and Shakespeare copied into comics. And there's no other comparision to be made really, because if Shakespeare wrote comics fans would complain about him 10 times more than any of these writers.

[Dee3]

Wow :rolleyes: I shall resist the urge to say something

[Dee3]

Are you seriously comparing Winnick, Rucka, and Johns to Shakespeare? o_O
YES amazing isn't it :rolleyes:
I shall resist the urge to do the above

[Leslie Lee III]

Wow :rolleyes: I shall resist the urge to say something

I don't understand what is confusing:

Shakespeare wrote tragedies, there were flawed heroes, people died.
Identity Crisis is a tragedy, there are flawed heroes, people are dying.

Sort it out.

[Ignatz Ratzkywatzky]

I don't understand what is confusing:

Shakespeare wrote tragedies, there were flawed heroes, people died.
Identity Crisis is a tragedy, there are flawed heroes, people are dying.

Sort it out.

Agreed, Leslie. We put Shakespeare on a pedestal today, but he was a popular artist writing for the common people of his time. If he were writing today, he wouldn't be making independent films. He'd be writing for network television.

I've enjoyed Identity Crisis more than any other series that I've read this year. Whether or not Meltzer is able to pull off a fully satisfying solution to the mystery, I won't complain. Mysteries are rarely about who-done-it. It's the journey that counts.

[Shellhead]

I don't understand what is confusing:

Shakespeare wrote tragedies, there were flawed heroes, people died.
Identity Crisis is a tragedy, there are flawed heroes, people are dying.

Sort it out.

There's no confusion. Your comparison is disturbing, because it suggests that you perceive no difference in quality between Shakespeare and these three modern comic book writers. Even if you aren't intentionally comparing the quality of writing, it's implied because you're referrring to Shakespeare in the same context as the others. The exaggerated effect of such an inappropriate comparison is grotesque.

A similar exaggerated comparison is often involved when people compare someone with Hitler. It's intellectually lazy and usually inappropriate and offensive.

With some additional thought, you may be able to make your original point by actually discussing in detail why you don't think this upcoming crossover won't suck.

[TopJack]

Flawed heroes, characters dying, it's ridiculous! It remids me of the horsecrap that hack Shakespeare used to write.

Please. You can't be serious.

Very weak — and borderline blasphemous — analogy.

Many of these DC characters have been around for decades. Comic characters are part of serialized fiction that will outlast all of us. Killing off characters is done in an often arbitrary manner for sheer sensationailsm, shock value and a readership bump. And DC's number one priority is making Warner Bros. happy, not artistic integrity.

I seriously doubt Shakespeare killed off or spared his characters due to merchandising issues, movie deals or quick sales spikes.

Perhaps Lady MacBeth was being considered for her own ongoing series and we just don't know it.

(Still shuddering from hearing the name "Winick" so close to "Shakespeare.")

[NickVinson]

Really? I thought he was being sarcastic. It wasnt necessarily funny, but "Not all the Jokes can be Funny. You've got to expect that every once and awhile."- Groucho Marx

and Shakerspeare may not have killed off characters to make merchandising but he surely did kill off and vilify others to make the King happy. Seems like the same thing to me.

[Dee3]

Top Jack Shellhead
My sentiments exactly.
Leslie where do you get off ?
In another thread you asked posters to read Shakespare and Greek Tragedies.
In fact I do and so have the posters on this bord.It seemed to me that you were insulting our intelligence.
How you can conpare modern comic writers to greats such as Shakespeare, Homer, Dante and Chaucer is beyond me. These writers are paragons these are the writers who modern comic writers strive to be however they do not come close they are a simple flicker to a flame.

dee

[retcon74]

why you don't think this upcoming crossover won't suck.

That sentence isn't still not hurting my head. :D

[Kevin Street]

Ah, two double negatives in a row! That shouldn't not be a bad thing. ;)

Anyway, they had me with "80 pages for a buck." Talk about a great deal. As for the years-long mega story spanning the DCU - well, we'll have to see.

[Brian R]

People need to wait until the actual comic comes out before shredding it.

[nemo137]

No one's saying that Meltzer's words leave white-hot trails in the soul (although that one page in Archer's Quest was really, really good), but to complain about "flawed heroes and dead bodies" is missing the point. Tragedy and pathetic tragedy (which is what I'd say IC falls under) always involve suffering of some sort, and some sort of flaw.

That said, I'd love to see someone write a comic with Arthur Miller's essays on tragedy in mind.

[Shellhead]

That sentence isn't still not hurting my head. :D

That sentence came out awkwardly because I was trying to avoid being nasty. Anyway, all analogies are false, and sarcasm doesn't work well on the internet. If Leslie wants to say something, he (or she) should try to just come out and say it. Then we can talk about Leslie's viewpoint, instead of getting into a digression about Shakespeare.

[Shellhead]

People need to wait until the actual comic comes out before shredding it.

No, we don't. DC is already hyping it, and we are allowed to react to that hype.

[JimmyDee]

It's pretty much a no-brainer. $1. At this point you'd really have to give me reasons why I shouldn't buy it, which is obviously the intention of DC. You've got three of the best writers in main stream comics crafting this book. It could be about super powered emus and I'd still buy it if it were by these three guys.

While I wish Judd had spoken a little bit to the story inside, knowing the thought process behind this entire event was illuminating. Frankly I'm more excited about this than I was "Identity Crisis," just because three of my favorite writers are tackling it.

Leslie - Dude, your comparison/analysis is just straight out of the oddland of oddness. Shakespeare? How did that get brought up? Of course writers ape the greats, they all do. It's not limited to any genre and it's hardly worth mentioning, especially in the context of an "Identity Crisis" discussion. I've read plenty of Shakespeare in my time and I don't see what relevance your point has. What, is this some attempt at thread drift for thread drift's sake?

By the way, that last question was rhetorical. No answer is really needed.

[Buried Alien]

The way COUNTDOWN and the subsequent "New CRISIS" is being promoted is confusing. On the one hand, it's supposedly very influenced by IDENTITY CRISIS. On other hand, it's supposedly also very related to CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS. ID CRISIS and COIE might both be DC "Crises", but I can't think of two crises more different from one another. What they could possibly draw from *both* boggles the mind. Consider this, however:

CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS + ARMAGEDDON 2001 = ZERO HOUR

CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS + KINGDOM COME = THE KINGDOM

CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS + IDENTITY CRISIS = ???

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Brian R]

No, we don't. DC is already hyping it, and we are allowed to react to that hype.

Yes, you can react to the hype, but you cant say "Im dropping DC cuz they suck hard and everything they do SUCKS!!1!" unless you have actuallly read the book. I am a firm believer in forming opinions based on early indicators, thats fine, but people(not you) are already talking about boycotts and such because of a book that hasnt been released yet.

Reacting to hype and crapping on a book without reading it are not the same thing.

[JimmyDee]

The way COUNTDOWN and the subsequent "New CRISIS" is being promoted is confusing. On the one hand, it's supposedly very influenced by IDENTITY CRISIS. On other hand, it's supposedly also very related to CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS. ID CRISIS and COIE might both be DC "Crises", but I can't think of two crises more different from one another. What they could possibly draw from *both* boggles the mind. Consider this, however:

CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS + ARMAGEDDON 2001 = ZERO HOUR

CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS + KINGDOM COME = THE KINGDOM

CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS + IDENTITY CRISIS = ???

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)I think you're getting a bit ahead of yourself. We don't officially know where DC is going to go with these. Sure, the rumor mill points to CRISIS 2 and that very well might be where it's going, but we don't know yet. The "new Crisis," as you say, isn't being promoted at all yet, if it does indeed exist.

Frankly, the way DC has decided to rollout info on COUNTDOWN I think has been great. It's the viral news story of the week and every community you look at has a major thread about it.

[Apathy Boy]

I don't want to speak for Leslie, but eh, what the hell, I'll do it anyway.

Leslie wasn't saying Winick, Johns and Rucka were as good as Shakespeare. He was rebutting a complaint about a specific plot device - large body counts - by saying that even the widely acknowledged greatest writer of all-time has used that technique himself. Therefore it would be incorrect to criticize a work of fiction for using that technique because large body counts are not bad in themselves.

[Dee3]

Okay if that was his point fine I just don't beleve that Rucka ,Winnick and other modern comic writers belong in the same catagory as one of the greatest writers of all time. I just think he needs to be more careful with his wording but then again so do I.

[mckracken]

I don't want to speak for Leslie, but eh, what the hell, I'll do it anyway.

Leslie wasn't saying Winick, Johns and Rucka were as good as Shakespeare. He was rebutting a complaint about a specific plot device - large body counts - by saying that even the widely acknowledged greatest writer of all-time has used that technique himself. Therefore it would be incorrect to criticize a work of fiction for using that technique because large body counts are not bad in themselves.

Greatest writer of alltime? Who makes that list? What are the criteria? In serious literature its futile to weigh author against author.

Nobody on this planet can convince me with profounding evidence (even the thought is silly) that Shakespeare is "better" than Günter Grass.

[Brian R]

Yeah, I was gonna say... I dont find Shakespear to be the best ever. In fact, I am sure that William would not have held that opinion of his own work either. He is good, no doubt, but most of his stories follow very defined paths, and he usually throws in a good amount of violence, humour, and sex, because even back then writers knew "give people what they want".

[comic_lover]

Judd Winick spoke with CBR News for a brief chat about "DC Countdown."

http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=4538 Pretty vague,but for a buck,how could be bad ? I'll check it out.

[mckracken]

Pretty vague,but for a buck,how could be bad ? I'll check it out.

That was a brilliant move. The "why not for a buck" readers will be plenty.
With the potential to hook them in for Countdown 2,3 etc.

[Paradox]

Fever is in error:

Yes, you can react to the hype, but you cant say "Im dropping DC cuz they suck hard and everything they do SUCKS!!1!" unless you have actuallly read the book.

Sure you can!

You just end up looking like a damned fool. :p

[Brian R]

Sure you can!

You just end up looking like a damned fool. :p

I stand corrected. :D

Now, let us eat cake!

[Kevin Street]

The way COUNTDOWN and the subsequent "New CRISIS" is being promoted is confusing. On the one hand, it's supposedly very influenced by IDENTITY CRISIS. On other hand, it's supposedly also very related to CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS. ID CRISIS and COIE might both be DC "Crises", but I can't think of two crises more different from one another. What they could possibly draw from *both* boggles the mind...

The impression I got from Winick's interview was that some people at DC were pessimistic about the current market and the stories it would support - but the popularity of Identity Crisis (a complex, character based story) has shown them that they can write stories with strong characterization and still get good numbers. So many comic books these days are completely plot based (just look at Avengers Disassembled, for example) and so many stories are completely about gimmicks that it's fairly rare to see mainstream comics devote serious time to characterization. But now this new mega story, or Crisis, or whatever it is, will be like Identity Crisis in that it will spring more from the characters than some external device.

Or at least, that was my take on his comments. Your mileage may vary. ;)

[cactusmaac]

I don't understand what is confusing:

Shakespeare wrote tragedies, there were flawed heroes, people died.
Identity Crisis is a tragedy, there are flawed heroes, people are dying.

Sort it out.

Heh. Imagine the fanboy outrage if Shakespeare was around today and did a DCU adaptation of Titus Andronicus.

[Leslie Lee III]

With some additional thought, you may be able to make your original point by actually discussing in detail why you don't think this upcoming crossover won't suck.

If you put in some addtional thought, you would realize why the last part of your sentence is tragically flawed. Additional thought and better reading would also stop the proclamations about "OHMYGOD YOU'RE SAYING RUCKA AND SHAKESPEARE ARE THE EXACT SAME THING!" because it's not there. I think my mistake is expecting people to draw the logical conclusion on their own instead of going out of their way to find something to whine about. But since you need me to explain every detail to you....oh wait, other bright souls already stated it for me:

People need to wait until the actual comic comes out before shredding it.

No one's saying that Meltzer's words leave white-hot trails in the soul (although that one page in Archer's Quest was really, really good), but to complain about "flawed heroes and dead bodies" is missing the point. Tragedy and pathetic tragedy (which is what I'd say IC falls under) always involve suffering of some sort, and some sort of flaw.

Leslie wasn't saying Winick, Johns and Rucka were as good as Shakespeare. He was rebutting a complaint about a specific plot device - large body counts - by saying that even the widely acknowledged greatest writer of all-time has used that technique himself. Therefore it would be incorrect to criticize a work of fiction for using that technique because large body counts are not bad in themselves.

But if you're already foregoing all logic to complain about a comic that isn't out yet, you're likely to forgeo all logic to complain about my little post. My bad.

[The Xenos]

Wait.. maybe that is Jason Todd... and he's gay and has AIDs. Kidding. Bad joke, I know, but this is a high profile book and Wiinnick loves those, especially when he can push his (albeit important and usually good) political messages. How many news stories has he gotten in mainstream press over using hot button topics in his books? It's almost getting cliche and he's starting to look like an attention whore. C'mon, Judd, being on The Real World looked like enough of a desperate need for attention, you can stop now. I first found him thanks to Barry Ween and it's still a favorite work of his. I actually prefer his non-sueprhero work, though I think he's doing great on Green Arrow right now even with the heavy baggage of the current topic. Outsiders, as much as I love Nightwing and the characters, I don't think he's doing that great with them from what I've skimmed and heard.

Anyway, the only writer on this I really like is Rucka. Winnick runs hot and cold for me. Well, I acutally do need to check out more stuff by Johns. So I dunno where this is gonna go. I don't need another huge crossover or event. I've been over saturated with them and am finding my taste in comics shifting away from DC because of it. After all these hyped events, I find myself leaning more towards smaller comapny series and mini-series. DC needs to be careful not to push people away like that.

Of course for only a buck, I'll grab this to check it out.

-Xenos

[tricksterpup]

I'm gonna add this to my pull list come March. 80 Pages for a buck Is a damn bargin! I Can't wait to see how things spin off and how this 2 to 3 year storyline plays out!
Watch, first 80 pages will be a $1 and then the rest of the crossover books $3.95 or $4.95.

[BoosterBronze]

Heck, for a dollar for 80 pages I'd get

"Living God: The Illustrated Comicbook Autobiography of Rob Liefeld"
or even
"BENDIS: The Best of Characters Staring At Eachother- Directors Cut"

Can't pass that price.

[mike626]

What the hell I'll pick it up! :cool:

[bannermanonemillion]

People need to wait until the actual comic comes out before shredding it.

Me? I'd like nothing more, but the problem is that this past year has not. Been. Great. In terms of characters, particularly female. And if your name happened to rhyme with "Spruce Vane" then you've probably thought about eating a bullet this year.

I'd like to think this'll break the mold but I'm not getting my hopes up. Not again. :evilangry

[bannermanonemillion]

CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS + IDENTITY CRISIS = ???

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

=MASSIVE HEADACHE!!

[Suzanne]

An 80 page book with some of my favorite artists and writers for $1? I'm there!

[Jeff O.]

With the post-Crisis Huntress (Helena Bertinelli), in my experiences a majority of fans thought of her as a different character than the pre-Crisis Helena Wayne (as opposed to thinking of her as Helena Wayne reborn in the post-Crisis universe) -- no matter what DC's original intent may have been. Over on DC's official Message Boards, there are still fans asking for Helena Wayne to come back.


I just have to point out that on the DC message boards there's someone or some group asking for everyone to come back....If there's a dead or changed character out there then there's someone, probably on the DC message boards, who is willing to bitch about it. So that really doesn't say much.


Dear Forsaken_One,

If there is only one sentence in my long post which really didn’t say much to you, then I think I did quite well. ;)

I was just adding my DCMB comment as an example of readers who think of Helena Wayne as a dead and gone character, and not a character still with us who was literally reincarnated as Helena Bertinelli (after time started over at the end of CRISIS). Batman took a major hit in losing the Earth-Two Huntress, and to this day there are those who ask for her to come back. If it were universally accepted that Helena Wayne and Helena Bertinelli are the same soul (rather than just of the same cloth), looking back I wouldn’t think it was quite as big a hit to Batman, since Helena Bertinelli was on the scene before the eighties ended. If it were universally accepted that Helena Wayne and Helena Bertinelli are the same soul, then I think those who favored her pre-Crisis incarnation would focus on asking DC’s The Powers That Be to let Helena somehow remember who she once was (and thereby clean up her act), over asking for her pre-Crisis incarnation to visit or move to the modern-day DCU from Hypertime or heaven.

I welcome you informing those here who don’t know about how common it is on the DC Boards for someone to ask for their favorite character to come back (though I would never consider it “b*tching.”) I didn’t refer to it myself, however, because the fact that people also ask about other characters coming back isn’t relevant to my Huntress point.

What would be relevant are how many different posters I have seen make at least one comment either for or against bringing the dead Helena Wayne back; especially if my entire basis that “a majority of fans thought of her [Helena Bertinelli] as a different character” came from experiences with the DCMB. The many “Huntress” threads and sub-threads I have read over the past six years far from make up the entirety of “my experiences” in believing that a majority of readers thought or think that way about the Huntresses. I’m also taking into account comics I’ve read, letters pages, fan magazines, whole websites devoted to the Huntresses (and pages devoted to the Huntresses at other websites), and my memory of how the Huntress’s death was perceived when CRISIS # 12 was originally published (and of what the buzz was when HUNTRESS # 1 came out a few years later). Did you think that I meant the DCMB was my only point of reference, Forsaken_One?

When I said “a majority of fans thought of her as a different character,” I used the past tense deliberately to refer to fans as they witnessed Helena Bertinelli’s introduction and early appearances. It was written as a parallel to “Though a number of fans didn’t like Power Girl being changed into an Atlantean....” (In PG's case, I was alluding to when SECRET ORIGINS # 11 (http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/72760981648.11.GIF) came out.) I can certainly understand if you didn’t understand me on that part, and I am sorry I wasn’t clearer. To bring Helena Wayne’s plight to the present, I added “Over on DC's official Message Boards, there are still fans asking for Helena Wayne to come back.” I didn’t mean to imply that fans don’t ask for her to return on other MBs around the Internet, or in other outlets. And there’s a rule of thumb, perhaps more so in letter writing than in message boards, that for every person who takes the time to write to ask for something or complain about it, there are something like five-ten people who feel the same way but didn’t get to write or else didn’t think writing would do any good. (I dunno if that rule of thumb is true, as it wasn’t my thumb they were using. :) )

Just going by the DCMB, I have also seen those who want Helena Bertinelli to somehow be revealed as Batman’s biological daughter (thereby making her a new “Helena Wayne” or maybe even the same “soul” who had been the Earth-Two Batman’s daughter, pre-Crisis). So, instead of bringing back the pre-Crisis Helena Wayne out of the ether, or having Helena Bertinelli develop a pre-Crisis awareness that she was Helena Wayne, they want it established that she’s basically been here the past fifteen years right under our noses and is the daughter of a man not all that much her senior. Until that is ever written, Helena Wayne is still dead. Some people just want to see Helena Wayne brought back in an out-of-continuity/Elseworlds-type story. The main point to me here is whether a majority of fans thought of and think of the two as different characters, and not whether a majority of them want to see Helena Wayne return.

Let’s theoretically say a person started a thread asking for the Earth-Two Huntress to return in some fashion. Well, other people joined in to share their support for the idea. Say it was seven other people. Say, at the same time, nine other people joined the discussion and said that they didn’t want to see her return, maybe because they preferred Helena Bertinelli, or because they are young and have no memory of or sentimental attachment to Helena Wayne, or because Helena Wayne’s time has passed and they don’t want the Crisis undone (opening up a new can of worms). Well, even if a minority of the posters (eight out of seventeen) on that thread wanted her to return, it was a majority of those posters (unanimous agreement, actually) who thought of Helena Wayne and Helena Bertinelli as separate characters. If Helena Wayne is a separate character, then Batman suffered a major hit in losing her. (And she was certainly popular at the time of her demise.)

I was trying to guesstimate a typical MB example for you. I don’t have time to look through old threads I’ve saved, and some DC threads I had were wiped out when a computer crashed, anyway. As you have seen yourself, they have occurred on the JSA Board and the now-defunct OTHER BATMAN TOPICS Board, and occasionally elsewhere. Some such Huntress threads might have had only four participants (and sometimes a Huntress fan of course posted on more than one thread, depending on how important the topic was to him). In most of my general recollections, no matter what the vote was on Helena Wayne’s return, I rarely (if ever) saw a poster say, “Why are you asking this? Helena Wayne has been with us since 1989 as Helena Bertinelli!” If I saw 50 different people in six years say they wanted to see Helena Wayne come back (and another 49 who didn’t want her back or didn’t really care one way or the other), I’m sure far more than a simple majority of those 99 agreed that the Huntresses are similar but separate characters. That, coupled with the other reference sources I alluded to up above, led me to extrapolate that a majority of fans think of the ladies as separate characters. I said in “my experiences,” but I was also really estimating fandom at large.

Since you wrote “So that really doesn't say much” in regard to my sentence “Over on DC's official Message Boards, there are still fans asking for Helena Wayne to come back.” and “Over on DC's official Message Boards, there are still fans asking for Helena Wayne to come back.” is completely contingent on the sentence before it - - “With the post-Crisis Huntress (Helena Bertinelli), in my experiences a majority of fans thought of her as a different character than the pre-Crisis Helena Wayne (as opposed to thinking of her as Helena Wayne reborn in the post-Crisis universe) -- no matter what DC's original intent may have been. -- I took the time to further explain to you what I meant.

Since your Join Date is Dec. 2004, Welcome (or Welcome Back) to CBR!

[stealthwise]

Rucka? Meh.

Winick? Blarghl

Johns? Hmmm...

The price is the selling point for me too. Not to mention that they'll probably have tied every single stinking DCU title into this by the summertime anyways, and if you want to read any of their books, you'll need at least a passing familiarity with this first issue, I assume.

[Private America]

My worry?

Winnick kept saying that it's an outgrowth if IC. As if it's a very good thing.

Lesse here, what have we gotten so far?

Corrupted heroes.
Retconned rape.
Out-of-character moments left and right.
That friggin' Deathstroke fight.

*sigh*


Man...I thought the Deathstroke fight rocked!

[Private America]

Rucka? Meh.

Winick? Blarghl

Johns? Hmmm...

The price is the selling point for me too. Not to mention that they'll probably have tied every single stinking DCU title into this by the summertime anyways, and if you want to read any of their books, you'll need at least a passing familiarity with this first issue, I assume.

Nice post. I'll agree that Johns is the only writer on this one that truly intrigues me.

[yeoman]

Heh. Imagine the fanboy outrage if Shakespeare was around today and did a DCU adaptation of Titus Andronicus.

Why would anyone want an adaptation? It's not exactly one of his better works.

[bfrank]

There's no confusion. Your comparison is disturbing, because it suggests that you perceive no difference in quality between Shakespeare and these three modern comic book writers. Even if you aren't intentionally comparing the quality of writing, it's implied because you're referrring to Shakespeare in the same context as the others. The exaggerated effect of such an inappropriate comparison is grotesque.

A similar exaggerated comparison is often involved when people compare someone with Hitler. It's intellectually lazy and usually inappropriate and offensive.

With some additional thought, you may be able to make your original point by actually discussing in detail why you don't think this upcoming crossover won't suck.


right o...and yet you let some one get away with this nugget right after you post this:

Very weak — and borderline blasphemous — analogy.

kinda makes your arguement pointless....

[Flying_Postman]

I am looking foward to the series. I hope that it is well planed and co-ordinated across the DCU.

[Phoney Bone]

Heh. Imagine the fanboy outrage if Shakespeare was around today and did a DCU adaptation of Titus Andronicus.
That post is so beautiful on many different levels. Thanx for the belly-laugh!




Besides, this whole "Shakespeare" discussion is moot....seeing as how he wasn't even the one who wrote all of those dramas.

[Phoney Bone]

Heck, for a dollar for 80 pages I'd get

"Living God: The Illustrated Comicbook Autobiography of Rob Liefeld"
or even
"BENDIS: The Best of Characters Staring At Eachother- Directors Cut"

Can't pass that price.
Heck, I'd buy an 80-page book of nothing but the same sea-monkey add.

Holla-holla-holla for a dolla-dolla-dolla!!


EDIT: "80 pages of the the same sea monkey will be better than this garbage... mutter-mutter-gripe-gripe...."


HA! Went ahead and said it before anybody had a chance to!

[bannermanonemillion]

I am looking foward to the series. I hope that it is well planed and co-ordinated across the DCU.

And I hope that every terrorist on Earth suddenly surrenders to the proper authorities.

Let's see which happens first, hmm?

[stealthwise]

Besides, this whole "Shakespeare" discussion is moot....seeing as how he wasn't even the one who wrote all of those dramas.

Other than the few collaborations he worked on, there's nothing substantial to support your claims other than paranoid conspiracy theories.

[Buried Alien]

Besides, this whole "Shakespeare" discussion is moot....seeing as how he wasn't even the one who wrote all of those dramas.

Most credible historians have rejected the theory that Shakespeare did not write the dramas attributed to him; the evidence these historians found to substantiate Shakespeare's work was overwhelmingly irrefutable.






Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Phoney Bone]

The only conspiracy is the one perpetrated by William "Shady" Shakespeare in passing off someone else's work as his own.

And my source is very reliable. Al, the owner of the Treetop Tavern.

[Archyduke]

Why would anyone want an adaptation? It's not exactly one of his better works.

Alright, but it is, arguably, his most over-the-top "omgwtf"-type plays. You've got rape, cannibalism, incest, etc... throw in Coriolanus spontaneously showing up to get beaten down by Deathstroke and you've got the crossover event of the year.

I think the original poster meant to nudge at the reaction many of IC's events provoked from posters here and elsewhere.


PS. Imagine how fans would react to his massive ret-conning of The Spanish Tragedy! Heads would roll...

[Mondo Dynamo]

It's Barry Allen.

Countdown to Crisis 2.

Screw with the picture in photoshop, alter the spectrum a little to remove the excessive blue, brighten it up and strengthen the contrast, and the costume resembles a dark-red body suit.

I'm hedging my bets on this one.

I think you're right. Plus, it would open up some pretty good story lines if (and it might be a big if) we are going back to pre-crisis or a pre-crisis style multiverse.

The only problem I see is the connection with Batman, or lack thereof, considering the image is clearly meant to draw comparison with the image of Superman carrying Supergirl from the original crisis.

DC really does have a skill that makes comic fans like us sit up and pay attention to pre-release images and covers in a way that Marvel just doesn't seem to able to at the moment don't you think?

[hotrodimus]

at first glance people would think that its nightwing but remember when IC#1 cover came out, almost everyone thought its kyle... but its not.
so learning from that experience, i really think nightwing is not a choice

[mckracken]

Great, the next solicitations (April) might spill the beans on who kicks the bucket in DC Countdown. (unless its a mystary..)

Well, considering that, it means dodging every related info regarding the Countdown comics on the various sites and boards by various persons who like to be spoiled and speculate like there is no tomorrow. I hate those. Cant you people take a secret for what it is? (see Identity Crisis)

Heck if it has tie-ins, I cant even check out the solicitations at all, so ordering books will be a pain as well. Therfore, I vote for diamond previews 2 months in advance max. And dont tell me its a publishing/retailer necessity. If it is they should shorten it.

[kossori]

Don't worry...
DC has done a good job of covering up spoilers.

The solicitations won't mention names of people who died and if there's a corpse on the cover it'll be censored out with "classified" or "top secret".

[titanfan]

People figure stuff out though. It was blatantly obvious that it was Robin on the cover of IC#5 for example. Sue Dibney became the popular death vote as IC #1 drew closer and other characters were mentioned in other solicits. Similarly, a lot of people figured out Donna Troy was going to die in Graduation Day #2 because all of the other Titans were accounted for in other books. So DC may hide direct spoilage, but unless you shun yourself from all message boards, it will be hard to not avoid.

[Kevinroc]

http://www.newsarama.com/pages/DC/Didio_Countdown.htm

[kash]

hmmmm A Rann/Thanagar War with GL involved.......
Really hope they include Hawkman in it

OMAC Project's already on my pull list before i forget to later An Villians United will be makin it on soon.

I got absolutely 100% faith on the foursome of Johns Rucka Winnick & Loeb.

one thing though,

Dick, Wally, Garth and Roy better play a major role in the return of Donna Troy

[LoneWolf21]

Chances are the GL in question is either Hal or Jon. Who was GL when Gibbons was on the book by chance?

[kash]

Chances are the GL in question is either Hal or Jon. Who was GL when Gibbons was on the book by chance?


i was hopin they kinda use it start up the corps actually. the article says its crossesover with GL so im guessing Hal will be in it though i'd like to see Kyle Guy and Kilowag instead starting a new corps and tryin to keep peace in this new war.

[LoneWolf21]

Well part of it is that it's supposed to involve a GL led team of heroes in space, and I'm not sure (and no offense to fans of the characters) that Guy or Kilowog are "marquee" enough for this, Off the top of my head I can think of a total of two stories where Alan was in space (Sins of Youth and OWAW), and Kyle, though popular with a lot of fans, apparently isn't all that popular with Di Dio, Levitz, and the other top brass in DC, and it would appear, given how the sales on his title were when they put him in space (although that could also have had something to do with Raab's writing) that most of his fans prefer him in stories on Earth.

So given how much of a push Jon and Hal have been getting (the former with the JL toon, the latter with Rebirth) that they'd be shoe-ins for being the lead in the story, heck the GL title is by all accounts a Hal solo title anyway, so if it's crossing over with the book, chances are even better it's Hal.

[mckracken]

Kyle dies in Rebirth 6. Hal is using his corpse as a podest for the pose on the cover of the final issue.

[Bat-Mite]

Well, the miniseries look interesting.

OMAC: I like Greg Rucka when he is not writing superheroes. This sounds a bit closer to Gotham Central than to a superhero book. so I am giving this a try.

Day of Vengeance: Willingham is competent, and I love the DC magic aspect. So yeah, I am there.

Villains United: Gail is competent too, and a villains-centric mini sounds nice.

The Rann Thanagar war: Too bad Diggle is not the writer. I love Gibbons better as a penciler than as a writer, so I think I will skip this one.

By the way, since Reis is the penciler for this story, then I don't think he will be taking over Teen Titans any time soon.

[Michael P]

Ohhhhhh, Lord. Not the "a-word." Please God, let that have been a slip of the tongue. I got enough of that from early Image, thank you very much.

[Deathstroke]

Why do I have this tickling in the back of my head thats says Crisis II?

[ratzo]

My bottom line is that, if a story is exciting, if a story is interesting. If the creators are the ones whose work you want to see, that’s the story you should be buying. Just because you have 500 issues of something in a row isn’t a good enough reason to buy something that you’re not enjoying anymore.

God bless Dan Didio for saying this. This should be framed and hung on the walls of every comic shop in America.

[IamtheRock3]

with this and seven solider my pull list becoming pricey

[Rich L]

I love the idea of getting the issue, reading it, and not being able to wait for the next one to come out the following month. The idea of waiting for the trade is boring to me. We create comic books that are bought on a monthly basis, and my job, and the job of everyone here is to make people go back into the store the next month or next week, and buy the next issue because they can’t wait for something to come six months or a year down the road...They have to be compelling. They have to be filled with characters and situations that people want to see more of. We’ve got to create stories that are too big for movie budgets. We’ve got to tell stories that are too big that can just be collected and sit on a shelf. We’ve got to tell stories that people want to see and read every month, every week.


Well thank god somebody in the industry finally said that trades aren't the be-all and end-all of the future of comics.

A good interview. But damn, I'm going to have to chop a few books somewhere else to afford all these...

[Sharcque]

Kyle dies in Rebirth 6. Hal is using his corpse as a podest for the pose on the cover of the final issue.
Anyone have a link to that cover pic?

[Rich L]

Anyone have a link to that cover pic?

Not sure where that comes from; DC's solicits has #4 cover (with Ollie over Kyle's body) here (http://www.dccomics.com/comics/?cm=2541) while #6 is a slightly more optimistic (http://www.dccomics.com/comics/?cm=2765) cover...

[mckracken]

"Originally Posted by mckracken
Kyle dies in Rebirth 6. Hal is using his corpse as a podest for the pose on the cover of the final issue."

Anyone have a link to that cover pic?

Im printing it as alternate cover, should be in Johns greedy paws next week.

[tony2074]

whata a podest? and why the hell does kyle have to friggin die...

[mckracken]

Haahhaha, I love you guys.

[JeffreyWKramer]

A darker, more dangerous DCU.

That certainly isn't what I think comics need, but oh well. Worst comes to worse, that's just less of my money DC gets.

[Buried Alien]

A darker, more dangerous DCU.

That certainly isn't what I think comics need.

Agreed. I was hoping that this so-called "Second Crisis" would be a springboard for undoing some of the excesses that have emerged since the original Crisis, not compounding them.

Then again, this new "ALL-STARS" project seems to provide a sanctuary for those who prefer a lighter, less dangerous, and more fun DCU.




Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Windbreaker]

I think Dan Didio might actually LIVE in the DCU. Or at least some warped version of our reality, based on a few things he said...

A lot of this actually came following September 11th... you would walk into the Port Authority, and you would have National Guardsmen standing there with machine guns... supposed to be making me feel better and more protected, but somehow, that gave me a greater sense of dread...

...Honestly, when I looked at that, I felt that was an attitude that we had to bring to our heroes. There should be two reactions when a superhero walks into a room. The first reaction is, “Oh shit, they’re here for something,” and the second reaction is, “Oh shit, I hope they’re not here for me.” No one should be taking a step forward to pat them on the back – they should be taking a step backward, thinking, “Something bad is about to happen here.”

People are so terrified of guns now, thanks to Katie Couric et al.

Years ago, neighborhoods welcomed a beat cop. Open police presence helps deter crime. It also keeps them part of the community. They know the neighbors, the shop owners, etc.

Same is true with the Guard. If I'm at an airport next to badass soldiers with firearms, I'm feeling pretty secure. In fact, I'm going to sit in his shade and eat lunch.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

For all the complaining I hear about how the DCU is getting too dark, I think there's plenty of different flavors available in the DCU now to appeal to almost anyone's taste. If gloom-fests like IC and War Games aren't to your liking, there's wonderful stuff like New Frontier and Plastic Man on the other end of the spectrum. I don't understand why it has to be an all or nothing thing.

[stealthwise]

For all the complaining I hear about how the DCU is getting too dark, I think there's plenty of different flavors available in the DCU now to appeal to almost anyone's taste. If gloom-fests like IC and War Games aren't to your liking, there's wonderful stuff like New Frontier and Plastic Man on the other end of the spectrum. I don't understand why it has to be an all or nothing thing.

But... as a fellow Green Lantern fan, do you REALLY want to see this "Grim and gritty" approach plastered all over Hal and co.? I don't want to see more "dark" stories with rape, murder and the like that just occurs for the sake of shock value. It reads like bad fanfic most of the time.

[GeorgeG]

Bored,

I understand what you're saying, but it seems there isn't any middle ground. There's dark & gritty and then there's goofy (Plastic Man).

Good superhero storytelling can be done without murder, rape, torture and over-the-top violence. I can get all that by watching The Shield (usually in one episode), but in the comics I read I don't really want that. Others may, and that's their choice, but I want my superheroes w/ less grit. I'm really getting turned off by it and my purchases will reflect that.

[mckracken]

BLA BLA BLA, will that grim n gritty talk never stop.

How you all must hate Dark Knight Returns. I mean its not the bad guys that kill no Batman is murdering for a change. Oh what an outcry that was back then! That was totally out of character! How could Miller ever penetrate the sanctity of our goofy Bat!

Or how about Crisis? The Anit-Monitor was sending BILLIONS into their graves.
Oh yet another outcry over all those merciless deaths! (not)

Good Superhero storytelling shall be done with whatever is needed for a good story. Comics are not a cooking recipe. There is no basis what should be in and in what doses. END OF STORY, Silver Age fascists. :rolleyes:

(though it must be noted that most critically acclaimed comics were of the deconstructional type)

[GeorgeG]

Sorry, I haven't been reading comics as long as you.

[stealthwise]

BLA BLA BLA, will that grim n gritty talk never stop.

How you all must hate Dark Knight Returns. I mean its not the bad guys that kill no Batman is murdering for a change. Oh what an outcry that was back then! That was totally out of character! How could Miller ever penetrate the sanctity of our goofy Bat!

Batman didn't kill anyone in that mini.

Good Superhero storytelling shall be done with whatever is needed for a good story. Comics are not a cooking recipe. There is no basis what should be in and in what doses. END OF STORY, Silver Age fascists. :rolleyes:

(though it must be noted that most critically acclaimed comics were of the deconstructional type)

Those "critically acclaimed comics" were actually well-done though. If someone could actually steal the WORTHWHILE (ie, the hard to write, intricate and well-researched) elements of something like The Watchmen, then I'd be all for it, other than the typically "grim and gritty" fare that gets tossed out there.

[Jack Ryder]

God bless Dan Didio for saying this. This should be framed and hung on the walls of every comic shop in America.

Actually, that would kill most of the business at a comic shop
The Rich l quote would be better.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

But... as a fellow Green Lantern fan, do you REALLY want to see this "Grim and gritty" approach plastered all over Hal and co.? I don't want to see more "dark" stories with rape, murder and the like that just occurs for the sake of shock value. It reads like bad fanfic most of the time.

DC has already gone the grim n' gritty route with GL during Emerald Twilight and they're currently in the process of reversing all that because they've realized that the character isn't really suited to that kind of story. Johns has specifically said that GL is story of hope and optimism.

I understand what you're saying, but it seems there isn't any middle ground. There's dark & gritty and then there's goofy (Plastic Man).

Good superhero storytelling can be done without murder, rape, torture and over-the-top violence. I can get all that by watching The Shield (usually in one episode), but in the comics I read I don't really want that. Others may, and that's their choice, but I want my superheroes w/ less grit. I'm really getting turned off by it and my purchases will reflect that..

That's the way to do it. Vote with your wallet.

However, there is *WAY* more out there than the two extremes of dark and goofy. New Frontier was hardly goofy. Superman: Secret Identity wasn't goofy. Birds of Prey isn't goofy. Justice League Adventures isn't goofy. If sex & violence is a problem for you, there's still plenty of comics out there for you.

[Suzanne]

Bored, when this year's Corries come around, you're getting my vote as best poster :cool:

I'm psyched about Countdown :) I can't decide which of the mini-series I'm going to get, but the Rann/Thanagar slugfest is a sure thing. I think the stiff Batman's carrying on the cover is the Atom, but we'll know soon. As for DC's direction, I don't have a problem with darker territory. I enjoy interesting stories and good art, and if this "new direction" brings more of that, then it's cool with me.

[Dee3]

A darker, more dangerous DCU.

That certainly isn't what I think comics need, but oh well. Worst comes to worse, that's just less of my money DC gets.


I agree here Jeffrey and Buried Allen, In light of recent world events I don't think that comics should be darker. They should be lighter a refuge from the worlds darkeness. If you want to do dark stories fine but their should be a beacon a light if you will that shines thru the darkness and that light is hope. If there is no hope then there is only darkeness and that's no good. Look at some of our most favorite stories the hero represents hope.

Good point stelthwise.

but I'll give it a try anyway.

[mckracken]

I want my DC so dark that I cant find my way to the nearest bulp, even if i tried.

[Paradox]

"podest"? "bulp"? mckracken, just exactly WHAT language are you speaking? :p

Dark, light, it's all about the execution to me. Both can be done well or poorly. We'll just have to see which this will be.

[Kevin Street]

with this and seven solider my pull list becoming pricey

I know what you mean! These minis, Seven Soldiers, the All Stars titles, the regular titles I already read... There's no way I can buy it all.

But it will be fun deciding which to get. ;)

[mckracken]

"podest"? "bulp"? mckracken, just exactly WHAT language are you speaking? :p

Dark, light, it's all about the execution to me. Both can be done well or poorly. We'll just have to see which this will be.

OH NO, teh intarnet sbelling police! Im busted. :D

As for your question: "Podest" should give you a hint.

[Paradox]

mckracken at least didn't get all indignant:

OH NO, teh intarnet sbelling police! Im busted. :D

As for your question: "Podest" should give you a hint.

Just pokin' a little good natured fun. I recieve as well as I give. :)

But, usually I'm pretty good at decyphering typos...I'm guessing "bulp" was "bulb", but I'm still clueless as to what you were trying to type that came out "podest".

[mckracken]

Im from Austria (NO kangaroos)
I figured wrong when I thought podest is the same in english.
What I should have typed: Pedestal. :o

[Paradox]

Ah, thanks. Makes sense now.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Dark, light, it's all about the execution to me. Both can be done well or poorly. We'll just have to see which this will be.

I couldn't agree more.

Whether or not a story is dark or light means nothing to me. It's how well told the story is. I think superheroes can be used to tell many different kinds of stories to many different kinds of audiences. Although clearly some heroes are better suited towards certain styles, that shouldn't preclude creators from experimenting.

[mckracken]

OHHHH and it gets better!!!

Ive been interested in Captain Marvels predecessor for quite some time, and a minute ago Ive learned that Shazam is making an appearance in Countdown! Whopee do!

[Boomstick King]

Batman didn't kill anyone in that mini.

I believe he killed the Joker.

Comics in general are becoming darker, as well as, most writing. It's a direct reflection of events that are going on in the world. Most people are beginning to have a bleaker world image and in turn it affects the stories that are told.

[Yoda]

Batman didn't kill anyone in that mini.

I believe he killed the Joker.

Comics in general are becoming darker, as well as, most writing. It's a direct reflection of events that are going on in the world. Most people are beginning to have a bleaker world image and in turn it affects the stories that are told.

He tried to kill the Joker but he couldn't go through with it. Batman started to break Jokers neck but stopped. Joker then twisted himself around finishing the job for Batman. Whether thats medically possible is another story.

I don't mind that stories are getting somewhat darker now, it just means that the light will be all that brighter when it goes full circle. It's just cyclica