View Full Version : Bruce Wayne isn't Batman...
Luigi
03-19-2005, 07:30 PM
Just a thought I thought I'd throw out there. Not sure how many people have seen Kill Bill Vol. 2 but at the end of the movie. Bill is talking about how Superman is his favorite hero because all the other heroes were born human, gained powers and then put on a mask to be a hero. Superman on the other hand, was born a hero with powers and put on a mask to be human.
My thought was that maybe Bruce Wayne isn't Batman but Batman is Bruce Wayne. I just read Bruce Wayne: Fugitive and I won't spoil the ending but he is so concerned about saving Batman and not Bruce Wayne. Same with when Jack Drake found out Tim was Robin. Nightwing asked what would happen if Jack Drake revealed Batman was Bruce Wayne to the world and he answered that he had many identities that they could jump into in 10 mins. All that was important was that Batman lived on.
My question is pretty much how many other heroes out there are like these two?
Imaginos
03-19-2005, 08:16 PM
Bill's (or Tarantino's) argument only works if you haven't read a Superman comic since 1985. The goofy, bumbling Clark Kent is a part of history, euthanized by the Crisis.
Post-Crisis, Clark Kent has been the "real" character. The Superman costume is now the affectation, and has been since "Man of Steel."
Just a thought I thought I'd throw out there. Not sure how many people have seen Kill Bill Vol. 2 but at the end of the movie. Bill is talking about how Superman is his favorite hero because all the other heroes were born human, gained powers and then put on a mask to be a hero. Superman on the other hand, was born a hero with powers and put on a mask to be human.
My thought was that maybe Bruce Wayne isn't Batman but Batman is Bruce Wayne. I just read Bruce Wayne: Fugitive and I won't spoil the ending but he is so concerned about saving Batman and not Bruce Wayne. Same with when Jack Drake found out Tim was Robin. Nightwing asked what would happen if Jack Drake revealed Batman was Bruce Wayne to the world and he answered that he had many identities that they could jump into in 10 mins. All that was important was that Batman lived on.
My question is pretty much how many other heroes out there are like these two?
The Shadow
03-19-2005, 08:47 PM
maybe Bruce Wayne isn't Batman but Batman is Bruce Wayne.
Bruce has said this (or something like it) before... Leslie Thompson also refers to Bruce as the costume and Batman the person.
Static-Pulse
03-19-2005, 09:43 PM
My question is pretty much how many other heroes out there are like these two?Nightwing. He only became a bartender and then a cop in his book to make his mission more successful. The bartending gig was taken, yes, to have a job, since he got it before he knew about his trust fund on steroids, courtesy of Lucious Fox. However, he took it at a cop bar to keep his ear to the ground and find out what was going on in Blüdhaven. He then became a police officer to root out corruption with the force, so he could more quickly take Blockbuster down. I've seen, a couple of times, that had Dick been dealing with commissioner Gordon, the evidence he collected would be enough to start an investigation. Since the Blüdhaven commissioner was on the take, he couldn't.
Five bilion people will probably disagree with me, but Black Canary is another. She might not wear the mask of "Black Canary" like Batman does, but I've been under the impression that Dinah is a full-time, career heroine. If she had to give up being Dinah Lance in name, she'd still be Black Canary.
That's actually what I find so appealing about Batman, Nightwing, Black Canary, and Batgirl -- and Batgirl, definitely Batgirl. They don't put on masks to become heroes, they simply wear them the same way an artist wears a smock or a hacker wears a T-shirt. The artist and hacker are always artists and hackers, and often have to put on different faces to be around people -- to be able to discuss things that aren't art or code.
Nightwing and Black Canary are, to me, their true selves when fighting, helping people, or heroing. When they have to function outside of that world, things can quickly get dicey.
Oh, and Impulse! Getting Bart Allen to be normal took Judd Winick and Geoff Johns breaking his spirit and his knee (repeatedly). Before them, cicra Impulse and Young Justice, Bart wore a "Bart Crandall" mask everyday.
Max: Bart get's impatient waiting for the kitchen light to come on.
Helen: That's rediculous, there's no waiting. You flip the switch and then light comes on.
Max: ... Right.
Luigi
03-19-2005, 09:57 PM
Nice responses! Actaullly one more thing I remember about Bruce being Batman. Not sure if it counts but in Batman Beyond, one episode Bruce hears voices in his head telling him to kill himself and gets Terry to investigate and at the end of the episode, Terry asked How did you know you weren't actaully going crazy and Bruce responds, cuz the voice kept calling me Bruce. That's not what I call myself in my mind.
chicainery
03-19-2005, 11:39 PM
Nice responses! Actaullly one more thing I remember about Bruce being Batman. Not sure if it counts but in Batman Beyond, one episode Bruce hears voices in his head telling him to kill himself and gets Terry to investigate and at the end of the episode, Terry asked How did you know you weren't actaully going crazy and Bruce responds, cuz the voice kept calling me Bruce. That's not what I call myself in my mind.
Yes, I remember and love that episode.
Royal
03-19-2005, 11:42 PM
Actually, Batman is really Superman if you think about it.
Dr. Drake Ramoray
03-20-2005, 12:27 AM
Nice responses! Actaullly one more thing I remember about Bruce being Batman. Not sure if it counts but in Batman Beyond, one episode Bruce hears voices in his head telling him to kill himself and gets Terry to investigate and at the end of the episode, Terry asked How did you know you weren't actaully going crazy and Bruce responds, cuz the voice kept calling me Bruce. That's not what I call myself in my mind.
"Oh yeah, you would". :D
IamtheRock3
03-20-2005, 01:00 AM
the new batgirl fits in the she all about the costume mode
Barbra was even concern batgirl showed no concern about having an seperate life.
Static-Pulse
03-20-2005, 01:58 AM
"Oh yeah, you would". :DTerry: Well, just remember: that's *my* name now.
Bruce: Tell that to my subconscious.
Gail Simone
03-20-2005, 03:49 PM
Nightwing. He only became a bartender and then a cop in his book to make his mission more successful. The bartending gig was taken, yes, to have a job, since he got it before he knew about his trust fund on steroids, courtesy of Lucious Fox. However, he took it at a cop bar to keep his ear to the ground and find out what was going on in Blüdhaven. He then became a police officer to root out corruption with the force, so he could more quickly take Blockbuster down. I've seen, a couple of times, that had Dick been dealing with commissioner Gordon, the evidence he collected would be enough to start an investigation. Since the Blüdhaven commissioner was on the take, he couldn't.
Five bilion people will probably disagree with me, but Black Canary is another. She might not wear the mask of "Black Canary" like Batman does, but I've been under the impression that Dinah is a full-time, career heroine. If she had to give up being Dinah Lance in name, she'd still be Black Canary.
That's actually what I find so appealing about Batman, Nightwing, Black Canary, and Batgirl -- and Batgirl, definitely Batgirl. They don't put on masks to become heroes, they simply wear them the same way an artist wears a smock or a hacker wears a T-shirt. The artist and hacker are always artists and hackers, and often have to put on different faces to be around people -- to be able to discuss things that aren't art or code.
Nightwing and Black Canary are, to me, their true selves when fighting, helping people, or heroing. When they have to function outside of that world, things can quickly get dicey.
Oh, and Impulse! Getting Bart Allen to be normal took Judd Winick and Geoff Johns breaking his spirit and his knee (repeatedly). Before them, cicra Impulse and Young Justice, Bart wore a "Bart Crandall" mask everyday.
Max: Bart get's impatient waiting for the kitchen light to come on.
Helen: That's rediculous, there's no waiting. You flip the switch and then light comes on.
Max: ... Right.
I don't disagree with that opinion in the slightest. I think you're right, even when Dinah's potting flowers, she's still Black Canary.
Gail
Bruce has said this (or something like it) before... Leslie Thompson also refers to Bruce as the costume and Batman the person.
When I asked this question months ago I never got an answer. As to if Bruce Wayne is the mask then what/who is he really like?
Goosteady
03-20-2005, 08:07 PM
He is not like anything. If he is the mask then Bruce is just a facade he uses to finance his fight against crime.
Alan2099
03-20-2005, 08:31 PM
Batman has to be Bruce Wayne. He just doesn't want to admit that he's Bruce because Bruce was vulnerable and hurt, yet without Bruce he has no motivation, purpose, drive, or rage.
Batman says he's not Bruce but he's only trying to fool himself.
He is not like anything. If he is the mask then Bruce is just a facade he uses to finance his fight against crime.
If he uses Bruce Wayne to finance his fight against crime, then it can't be a facade. The last I heard Bruce is worth 6.4 (or thereabouts) billion dollars. If it was simply a facade then the should just cash it in and play Batman 24/7. Bruce Wayne is very much real. He is a shrewd businessman and a player on the international stage.
I would say that Batman is what allows Bruce Wayne to fight crime.
Lorendiac
03-21-2005, 03:05 PM
the new batgirl fits in the she all about the costume mode
Barbra was even concern batgirl showed no concern about having an seperate life.
That sounds familiar, now that you've reminded me. Sometime in the second year of Cassandra's series, I think her face was captured on videotape by the Feds (or on some other recording medium) as she tore through a bunch of people. When Babs found out, she told Cassandra why this was such a bad security breach. She went into a rant about how if the Feds had your face and were looking for you long and hard as a loose cannon they ought to apprehend, you could never get a driver's license, never get a passport, never hold a steady job in a secret identity, never do various other things that normal people enjoy doing . . . I forget what exactly she mentioned, but I think that was the gist of it.
When she finished, Cassandra just asked: "So?"
I think Babs threw up her hands and said, "Oh, well, fine, if that's the way you feel about it!" (Of course, they later managed to somehow destroy any copy of that recording, but it was still a good moment in seeing just how single-minded Cassandra was about the crimefighting lifestyle as the only lifestyle worth fussing about.)
I'd almost forgotten that :)
The Crime Dentist
03-21-2005, 03:22 PM
I don't have it handy, but in Arkham Asylum there's a scene where Batman faces down the escaped psychos who have taken the staff hostage that goes something like this:
Psycho 1: He's gotta do what we want now
Psycho 2: Yeah, I say we make him take his mask off. I wanna see his real face!
Joker: Idiot, that is his real face!
Grant Morrison's way ahead of ya.
Batman stays Bruce because he needs him due to the money and the wayne tech. And as BW he can also do things Batman cannot, like prevent Lex Luthor from taking over nomansland.
But if BW would be just a nobody without this kind of wealth and influence etc, BW would be have no problems with leaving BW behind.
Guts/Batman
03-21-2005, 03:56 PM
If he uses Bruce Wayne to finance his fight against crime, then it can't be a facade. The last I heard Bruce is worth 6.4 (or thereabouts) billion dollars. If it was simply a facade then the should just cash it in and play Batman 24/7. Bruce Wayne is very much real. He is a shrewd businessman and a player on the international stage.
I would say that Batman is what allows Bruce Wayne to fight crime.
I agree with that. Being batman 24/7 like when Jean Paul took over for Bruce after being broken by Bane. Being batman took Jean Paul over, to the point he was going to defile the "mantle of the bat" by letting one man die and in turn letting another die as a result of the first death. Jean Paul being batman 24/7 almost destroyed him.
After Bruce had taken back over as Batman, he explained to Tim that after being broken by Bane he had every intention of just being Bruce Wayne but what had transpired between being broken and taking back over made him have to take over again, "as if nothing had ever happened".
Bane himself says it "Your mask is a mask that no longer serves any purpose. Mine does." So in a sense Batman is Bruce Wayne, and vice versa. Neither can exist without the other.
Nate Grey
03-21-2005, 04:00 PM
Didn't the whole "Fugitive" storyline answer this question?
Static-Pulse
03-21-2005, 04:06 PM
Bruce Wayne is very much real. He is a shrewd businessman and a player on the international stage.Well, Matches Malone is real, and he's a very streetwise thug-about-town.
I think the point is that, had Thomas and Martha Wayne been blue collar workers when they were killed, Batman would have still come about. Even if his Bruce Wayne side was a plumber, he would have used being a plumber to fascilitate his fighting crime as best as possible.
Bruce Wayne, in this vein of discussion, is a tool of Batman's. It gives him access to money, high-end technology, global contacts, etc. This is pretty much the same way that Matches Malone gives him access to street criminals, to underworld people, etc.
Batman is the dominate personality because no matter what Bruce Wayne is doing -- attending a board meeting, lounging in his office, or dating a super model -- he is doing that to fascilitate Batman. He's maintaining social contacts so his Bruce Wayne cover will be a useful asset. If something ever happened to Bruce Wayne -- say, being accused of murder -- the Batman could still function, he would just lose one aspect of himself.
This differs from people like Wally West or members of the Justice Society, because they have lives. They have husbands, friends, jobs, hobbies, etc. that draw them out from the costume, that keep them human. Bruce Wayne has friends, jobs, and dates because for he must for Batman to use him properly.
I hope that makes sense... I kind of went on a tangent at the end.
Lorendiac
03-21-2005, 04:08 PM
Didn't the whole "Fugitive" storyline answer this question?
Why, sure! Until another writer with another idea on the subject comes along and writes it, contradicting the take that the "Fugitive" storyline had on the proper role of Bruce Wayne in Batman's life. Then another writer will come along and contradict him, and then another writer will come along and contradict all that has gone before . . . (who needs "continuity" anyway?)
If I didn't laugh, I'd cry. ;)
Nate Grey
03-21-2005, 04:13 PM
Why, sure! Until another writer with another idea on the subject comes along and writes it, contradicting the take that the "Fugitive" storyline had on the proper role of Bruce Wayne in Batman's life. Then another writer will come along and contradict him, and then another writer will come along and contradict all that has gone before . . . (who needs "continuity" anyway?)
If I didn't laugh, I'd cry. ;)
Has that happened yet, though? I thought the point was to show if Bruce Wayne is just a "mask" then he could shrug it off and be done with it, and that proved not to be the case. They're just one person, mask or no mask, and that person is, well, a dick. In my mind its been answered, but not to everyone's satisfaction or else I guess this thread wouldn't even exist.
Guts/Batman
03-21-2005, 04:21 PM
They're just one person, mask or no mask, and that person is, well, a dick.
But if he wasn't a dick would that make a rogue character like Huntress or the second Robin less likable?
Nate Grey
03-21-2005, 04:25 PM
But if he wasn't a dick would that make a rogue character like Huntress or the second Robin less likable?
I thought the second Robin wasn't liked at all (post Crisis anyway)? As for Huntress...I thought it was about the two using different methods, not him being a dick and her being a rogue. I don't know enough about the character to say, though, so I'll leave that one to the experts.
Didn't this uncompromising a-hole Batman appear after Miller's Dark Knight Returns? Or somewhere around that time? I gotta admit, I do miss the Batman who cracked a smile every now and then (not the Super Friends/60's versions or nothing lol). I don't see why Batman has to be an unlikeable control freak in order to function. But that's actually a different topic altogether for another thread, I suppose.
Guts/Batman
03-21-2005, 04:39 PM
true enough. Another thing abpout control, while reading iv noticed that he says that gotham city is his, after bane breaks him bane declares its his city, i could on and on with examples but my main question is...
Who's city is Gotham City? apparently many people thinks its their own.
Lorendiac
03-21-2005, 04:42 PM
My thought was that maybe Bruce Wayne isn't Batman but Batman is Bruce Wayne. I just read Bruce Wayne: Fugitive and I won't spoil the ending but he is so concerned about saving Batman and not Bruce Wayne. Same with when Jack Drake found out Tim was Robin. Nightwing asked what would happen if Jack Drake revealed Batman was Bruce Wayne to the world and he answered that he had many identities that they could jump into in 10 mins. All that was important was that Batman lived on.
Going off at a tangent, I'm reminded that we saw a story where Bruce and Batman went their separate ways for awhile, and it was interesting to see which experiences, memories, attitudes, etc., were assigned to one but not the other.
Mark Waid wrote a storyline for the JLA several years ago in which most of the active-duty members were magically split into two different people - the superhero and the secret identity persona who had no powers. (I think Wonder Woman and Aquaman were immune to what happened because they hadn't really been laboring to maintain any secret identities lately, if ever!)
You'd think that the new fulltime Batman would get even more intense and dedicated to the full-time war on crime, but instead he seemed to be getting all easygoing and less aggressive in fight scenes, as I recall. On the other hand, billionaire playboy Bruce Wayne started showing signs of having a nasty, violent temper when provoked.
Eel O'Brian (Plastic Man's old identity, seldom used these days) was the first one to figure out what was going on inside Bruce's head. He said at one point, "I can't believe we all made the same mistake. Everyone figured that when you split Bruce Wayne and Batman, you get a fop and a lunatic. Which is true. But not like we thought. The murder of Bruce Wayne's parents-- that's what created Batman. That's the memory that drives him. But it belongs to you."
My interpretation of that would be that all the intense training in martial arts, criminology, etc., and the resulting physical skills, had ended up in the "Batman" persona because all of that stuff had been deliberately done in order to become the perfect crimefighter, rather than as part of "Bruce's" social life or business strategy or whatever. I suspect (but may have it badly wrong) that most of the detailed memories of all those past fights with Joker, Two-Face, Riddler, etc., also ended up in Batman's head but not necessarily in Bruce's.
But the trauma of seeing his parents slaughtered was associated with the mentality of Li'l Bruce, the eight-year-old version of himself, and not something that the Batman or future-Batman-in-training had ever experienced. The separated Batman persona didn't really remember being an eyewitness to the death of his parents, we gathered - not in the powerful, enraging way that Bruce still remembered.
I guess we could take this as "proof" that when Batman/Bruce are sharing the same body, Batman's motivation stems from the frustrated rage of an eight-year-old boy who's just lost his parents to a random act of violence (and the police never managed to bring him any possible "closure" by capturing the perpetrator, either). Everything that's happened to Bruce-as-Bruce as he grew older and developed more social skills in interacting with other human beings in "normal" environments and so forth, except for martial arts training and scientific reading and that sort of thing, is totally irrelevant to the emotions and priorities of Batman when he's in his hard-hitting, grim-and-gritty mode.
Nate Grey
03-21-2005, 04:47 PM
true enough. Another thing abpout control, while reading iv noticed that he says that gotham city is his, after bane breaks him bane declares its his city, i could on and on with examples but my main question is...
Who's city is Gotham City? apparently many people thinks its their own.
I always take it as a figure of speech, unless Batman was elected and no one told me. :D No, seriously, all the heroes do that to their respective cities. Its like if crooks are planning a heist, for instance, and one of them suggests Metropolis, the other might say, "That's Superman's city! Unless you got some kryptonite, no way!"
Likewise, since at the time it was well know that Gotham was Batman's city, once Bane took him out, it became HIS city. To the winner goes the spoils, in other words.
Luigi
03-21-2005, 08:48 PM
Going off at a tangent, I'm reminded that we saw a story where Bruce and Batman went their separate ways for awhile, and it was interesting to see which experiences, memories, attitudes, etc., were assigned to one but not the other.
Mark Waid wrote a storyline for the JLA several years ago in which most of the active-duty members were magically split into two different people - the superhero and the secret identity persona who had no powers. (I think Wonder Woman and Aquaman were immune to what happened because they hadn't really been laboring to maintain any secret identities lately, if ever!)
That sounds like a sweet story. Any idea where I can find this story, like title or issues?
Well, Matches Malone is real, and he's a very streetwise thug-about-town.
.
Actually "Matches Malone" is a disguise that Bruce Wayne puts on in order to get himself better access to the criminal underworld. Batman is a disguise that Bruce Wayne puts on to fight criminals.
Bruce Wayne, in this vein of discussion, is a tool of Batman's. It gives him access to money, high-end technology, global contacts, etc. This is pretty much the same way that Matches Malone gives him access to street criminals, to underworld people, etc.
Like I stated before Bruce is worth 6.4 billion dollars. That is quite a hunk of change. And more than enough to play Batman 24/7 for the rest of his life. If Bruce Wayne were just the facade and Batman the real man. I have no doubt that he would cash in his money a long time ago. Bruce Wayne is very much real...he is a shrewd intelligent businessmen, who loves the cut and thrust of high finance and global business. Batman is the mask he wears to fight crime.
This differs from people like Wally West or members of the Justice Society, because they have lives. They have husbands, friends, jobs, hobbies, etc. that draw them out from the costume, that keep them human. Bruce Wayne has friends, jobs, and dates because for he must for Batman to use him properly.
Disagree. Bruce Wayne is a loner, I don't think he has any close friends, besides Alfred. I am sure that he has golfing buddies, plays polo and attends social events...but more to fascillitate his business. Networking if you will. As for dates. I've never bought into the notion that he's celibate.
Bruce Wayne is a man, a healty vibrant and sexual man (if he wasn't he would never attract the attention of a woman like Talia or Selina-trust me on this--women like that don't go for less than the real thing). I am sure he has appetites and indulges them when he feels like it.
That sounds like a sweet story. Any idea where I can find this story, like title or issues?
I believe it's in the "Divided we Fall" JLA trade.
Static-Pulse
03-22-2005, 02:20 AM
If Bruce Wayne were just the facade and Batman the real man. I have no doubt that he would cash in his money a long time ago.I disagree. Think about the end of "No Man's Land," when Luthor was buying up Gotham plots. Batman couldn't have dropped in with a stack of land deeds and destroyed his plans. That required Bruce Wayne.
Think about all the Batcaves spotted all around Gotham, not to mention the Clockl Tower. If Bruce Wayne hadn't owned property all around Gotham, a lot of these wouldn't have existed.
There are things that Bruce Wayne with Wayne Enterprises can do that Bruce Wayne with a thick wad of cash cannot do.
Bruce Wayne is very much real...he is a shrewd intelligent businessmen, who loves the cut and thrust of high finance and global business. Batman is the mask he wears to fight crime.I think Batman might disagree, but then so might Bruce Wayne. It depends on the writer, I suppose.
As for dates. I've never bought into the notion that he's celibate. I am sure he has appetites and indulges them when he feels like it.No real argument here.
I don't disagree with that opinion in the slightest. I think you're right, even when Dinah's potting flowers, she's still Black Canary.
Gail
Oooh, I don't wanna fight her writer but I saw it as slightly different. Dinah and Canary are the same person. There's no distinct split between the 2. Her personality is pretty much the same in both cases, unless she's wearing the wig and running the flower shop. The wallflower Dinah is the mask, but that's not really who she wants to be anyway. She'd be rebelling against that even if she never put on the fishnets.
Master Darque
03-22-2005, 10:09 AM
QUOTE]Bruce responds, cuz the voice kept calling me Bruce. That's not what I call myself in my mind.[/QUOTE]
Wow ...cooelst AND eeriset Bats trivia I've heard in awhile ...
And btw Gaz ....Dinah has NEVER been any kinda "wallflower" ....
And btw Gaz ....Dinah has NEVER been any kinda "wallflower" ....
I don't have many appearances (see the DC Trades thread on the DCU board to see why) but the way Waid wrote her in JLA:Y1, she was going for a quiet frumpy appearance as Dinah, despite really feeling like the more outgoing cool Canary. By the end of that series, she was ditching that "mask" to be herself. Thus the Canary is just another name for Dinah Lance, not a seperate identity she puts on.
Master Darque
03-22-2005, 02:44 PM
I guess I can give ya that one , being's how her mom , the original Canary kinda forced her into it all ....
Forefinger
03-24-2005, 12:18 AM
Towards the end of Fugitive, Batman realizes that he really is Bruce Wayne, and that his father's morals and ethics are why he has such a devotion to preserving life. Before that in the time after Jason Todd's death, it seemed like there was only Batman, and Bruce was just the mask. It goes back and forth though, Bruce Wayne is Batman and Batman is Bruce. There doesn't have to be any separation. I did enjoy one of the pre-murder stories where Bruce is talking to Batman and other times this device has been used. My opinion is that to dress up in a costume and jump off of rooftops, you would have to be a bit crazy.
Static-Pulse
03-24-2005, 09:08 AM
I guess I can give ya that one , being's how her mom , the original Canary kinda forced her into it all ....Say what? Dinah, Sr. adamantly disliked Dinah, Jr. being Black Canary. She never forced her into it.
amphetamine
03-24-2005, 10:16 AM
Think about all the Batcaves spotted all around Gotham, not to mention the Clockl Tower. If Bruce Wayne hadn't owned property all around Gotham, a lot of these wouldn't have existed.
There are things that Bruce Wayne with Wayne Enterprises can do that Bruce Wayne with a thick wad of cash cannot do.
But isn't that proving that Bruce Wayne is just a mask, if Batman is using Bruce's assets for his own ends?
Alan2099
03-24-2005, 10:50 AM
How does that prove that Bruce is a mask? Bruce looked everything up and bought the property, decided what he was going to do with it, decided he would fight crime, everything he's done as batman has been due to decissions as Bruce. He started training way ebfore the idea of dressing up as a bat ever entered his head. I know pre-crisis he wanted to be a policeman until he learned that they were too bound by red tape.
Say what? Dinah, Sr. adamantly disliked Dinah, Jr. being Black Canary. She never forced her into it.
I think he meant Dinah Jr running the flower shop and being the quiet, good girl.
amphetamine
03-24-2005, 11:50 AM
How does that prove that Bruce is a mask? Bruce looked everything up and bought the property, decided what he was going to do with it, decided he would fight crime, everything he's done as batman has been due to decissions as Bruce. He started training way ebfore the idea of dressing up as a bat ever entered his head. I know pre-crisis he wanted to be a policeman until he learned that they were too bound by red tape.
Ah, see, when you go Pre-Crisis, you lose me a bit. I'm a child of the post-Crisis DCU.
To clarify: I see anything Wayne Enterprises does as serving the Bat. Aquiring property, developing new technology... it's to serve Batman's quest, not to make Bruce Wayne financially successful or even to make Bruce Wayne a philanthropist.
There may have been a Bruce Wayne in the early years of his career, but I think the alterego has consumed him to the point where Bruce Wayne has become the alter ego.
Alan2099
03-24-2005, 12:55 PM
You're looking at it the wrong way. Batman is not the rage and obcession. That comes from Bruce. Bruce Wayne is the person whose obcessed with his past and his tragedy, revenge, and making sure that sort of thing never happens again. That's all Wayne. Batman is just the mask he puts on.
Static-Pulse
03-24-2005, 01:39 PM
I think he meant Dinah Jr running the flower shop and being the quiet, good girl.Oh. Yikes! Yeah. Sorry. Yeah.
Forsaken_One
03-24-2005, 01:52 PM
You are all getting waaaay too hung up on semantics. Batman is Batman; he's one person, regardless of whether or not you want to call him Batman, Bruce Wayne, or Mr. Skiperdoo. You can perhaps make the argument that the foppish persona is just that while naturally this being is more aggressive and obsessive, but who cares what he's called?
Alan2099
03-24-2005, 02:01 PM
Gotcha. From now I'll call him Mr. Skiperdoo.
Forsaken_One
03-24-2005, 02:03 PM
That's just fine. I like calling Mister Terrific "Mr. T" myself.
Forefinger
03-29-2005, 01:34 AM
I like calling Powergirl, "Big boobies McGee".
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