Treatment of Supes by other DC heroes..

[MaxG]

In past years Superman has been made a kind of measuring post to how 'powerful' other DC characters are. If you want to establish Flash as being able to beat Superman you have him knockout a Superman level threat. You want Martian Manhunter be able to beat Superman you have him casually mindwipe Superman at the drop of a hat. You want Captain Marvel viewed better you have him knock out Superman in 1 hit.

Superman has become a punching bag for other DC characters and nothing is being done about it. In a recent Flash comic Flash casually dismissed Superman as if he was nothing compared to him. Superman was basicly impotent to whatever Flash decided to do.

A few examples of how Superman has been pushed around by other DC heroes.

- Casually mindwiped by J'onn
- Knocked out continously by Captain Marvel
- Not even being able to 'touch' the Flash with all his array of abilities.
- Made to cry by mind illusions from Hal Jordan

I could go on and on because like I stated before Superman has become the punching bag of other DC heroes. But as a Superman fan for quite a long time I have to ask why don't we ever see the opposite why don't we see Superman overcoming these other heroes the way we see them casually dismissing Superman?

Storylines are being presented for years that strive to make these other heroes Superman's equal. I have no problem with equal but the fact remains is that with this continued treatment of his abilities Superman is no longer in the top tier when it comes to power in the DCU. Top tier now belongs to J'onn, Captain Marvel, the Green Lanterns, Dr. Fate, etc.

Here is an example of what this continued treatment of Superman is doing to his icon status and reputation. A comic book reader asked that with all the other characters around that can whoop Superman's butt so easily why is he shown as the icon to which others measure to? What can he do that the other heroes can't? J'onn is just as strong and fast plus has more powers. Captain Marvel is wiser than him and just as strong and fast etc. etc. etc.

Unfortunately he has a point. While Superman was the 1st and at one time the top dog in the DC, the powers that be have restricted him to grow in power and character at a detriment to his status. Now characters that were based off of Superman enjoy top dog status. These characters casually dismiss Superman and because of DC's treatment of the character they have a right to.

It's sad but true. DC has let Superman clones overcome the original.

[Kilgore Trout]

Afraid I must agree with your assessment...

Look no further than FOR TOMORROW as further proof that the editor in charge of the Superman comic franchise has no idea who or what Superman is or means...

FOR TOMORROW is a 12 month slog through guilt, recriminations and ineptitude by Superman on a world wide scale. Superman is portrayed as un-inspirational, ineffectual and powerless in what basically amounts to a year long apology for being who he is… There is nothing heroic, iconic or uplifting in the deconstruction of this 70 year old character and in some ways it feels like the last nail in the coffin of Superhero books in general. There is no charm, they can no longer be fun, everyone is twisted or emotionally crippled, and there is no room for inspiration or hope.

And now we’re in for even more grief as the ramifications of IDENTITY CRISIS rampage through the DCU…

Personally, I’m getting off this train wreck... I will be dropping all the regular Superman titles after decades of reading and collecting. I am resting my hopes on Grant Morrison and ALL STAR comics as the one salvation left to this once proud character…

Pleasant dreams Eddie…

[Maximus Brockman]

i have to agree. i think it's the whole Superman is a "boy scout" label. and how today's kids don't want to read that. in trying to get away from that image, they've made Superman look pathetic and ineffective.

as much as the comic world needs the realistic, the dark and the gritty, likewise is true for the fantastic, the colorful and heroic. let Superman's villians be evil. let them be dark and pathetic. Superman is the shining example. the leader, the go to guy.

Flash may get one up on him once in awhile, but 9.8 times out of 10, Superman is handing Flash his butt. If DC wants to make Wonder Woman as powerful as S-man, fine. We need a strong female hero. I'll even throw in Captain Marvel. But Martian Manhunter? C'mon! He's cool and all, but give me a break. :p Batman, Flash, Aquaman and Green Arrow would have to work as a team to bring Superman down. That's how strong the guy SHOULD be.

Look, I grew up in the Curt Swan era. I remember Superman eating the Kryptonite rock after all the Kryptonite was turned into ordinary rock. Kryptonite, No More. Was that the title? Who knows. But that whole era symbolizes what Superman should be. I can sum it up in two words: Power!

Stories like For Tomorrow and Identity Crisis make Superman look sad. It just seems today that no one knows how to write him. Or is afraid to write him. Either way, it stinks!

[Smokey]

Very true, however i agree and disagree with some points

disagreements:

superman isnt as powerless as you say, while yes he has been depowered over the years, he isnt number 1 anymore however i'd still consider among the top five or six heroes in DC in terms of power, I mean one can argue yes some clones like marvel get more popular, but even as of late superman HAS bested marvel much more than marvel has him


i think one reason hes pushed around so much is because he stands for power, we see him get dismissed but if it came down to it, i think superman could take out the flash or martian on any given day, where flash has the speed advantage over supes superman has every other advantage over him, where Jonn has the mental ability advantage over superman supes still has just about everything, tho not by much, superman was just too powerful at a time so he has been doomed to suffer more and more power losses, I want the PC superman back, all these fanboys talking about much weaker heroes or heroes that SHOULD be weaker like the flash beating superman is just proposterous, i think still its kind of a leeway situation with superman, in some situations we'll see him weak, but usually within those issues we also see a speck of the old supes, we'll see him get hurt by a common laser but take a rocket to the chest like its nothing..so it all balances out sometimes, but he is walked all over, i think another reason is the way hes portrayed: you can do anything you want to me and ill never fight back cuz im a good little country boy, if superman say was more like batman, the flash would NEVER say shit to him without fear of a tremendous bitchslap coming his way that would knock all the funny out of him

[kane]

I would like to see a more agressive Superman. An angry Superman is always very impressive. I liked him in the fight against the elite (i don´t know the number of the issue, it was on a moon of the pluto, as far as i remember).

A Superman who doesn´t want to kill, who protects the innocent and cares about the people, but fights hard against the villains.

[The Shadow]

I would like to see a more agressive Superman. An angry Superman is always very impressive.
A Superman who doesn´t want to kill, who protects the innocent and cares about the people, but fights hard against the villains.
That was Chuck Austen's Superman and it's been one of my favorites since John Byrne revamped him in 1986.

I was so pissed when Chuck left (though Byrne is coming back ironically enough) that I alsmost dropped the Superman books. The Lee/Azzarello crapfest has all but ruined Superman IMO and I can't wait for it to be OVER!!!

BRING BACK AUSTEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[marshal99]

Chuck Austen superman ?! The Austen Superman who can crack jokes while beating up villains ? The Austen Superman who would smirk and wise crack one minute and then dramatically faint the next ? The Austen Superman who can talk like a pompous jerkoff while smirking all the time when fighting ? The Austen Superman who can suddenly acted recklessly and wanted to kill some no-name villain because some orphan died when the issue before , Superman couldn't bring himself to kill Manchester Black even when Black make him think he had killed Lois. Guess an Orphan is worth more to Superman than Lois eh ?

I disagree that superman is made to look like a chump by other DCU heroes , go read OWAW , go read Superman/Batman , go read all of superman issues by Jeph Loeb. If anything , DC has made the rest of the DCU look bad.

In Superman/Batman , superman somehow KO Captain Marvel and stole his clothes.
Martian Manhunter couldn't last 2 panels with Doomsday rex , Superman made him afraid.
Martian Manhunter got slapped around by that Angel bullhost or whatever , Superman stood toe to toe with him.
Doomsday got reduced to a skeleton by a Imperiex blast , superman can not only withstand it , he is fine afterwards and still can fight with Darkseid.
Hippolyta got killed by just one drone
Aquaman was killed by just one drone (or he should have)
Guy Gardner was killed by one poke in the ribs by one drone
The rest of the JLA got taken out by ONE imperiex drone , superman flew through several drones without problems.

[DMike]

I agree. Him getting smacked around, IMO, is his karma for making the rest of the heroes look like they're pointless, redundant, or useless. The writers (Loeb in particular) have made Supes the only hero that matters in the bigger stories and try to pass that off as "well, he's an icon."

[MaxG]

I disagree that superman is made to look like a chump by other DCU heroes , go read OWAW , go read Superman/Batman , go read all of superman issues by Jeph Loeb. If anything , DC has made the rest of the DCU look bad.

In Superman/Batman , superman somehow KO Captain Marvel and stole his clothes.
Martian Manhunter couldn't last 2 panels with Doomsday rex , Superman made him afraid.
Martian Manhunter got slapped around by that Angel bullhost or whatever , Superman stood toe to toe with him.
Doomsday got reduced to a skeleton by a Imperiex blast , superman can not only withstand it , he is fine afterwards and still can fight with Darkseid.
Hippolyta got killed by just one drone
Aquaman was killed by just one drone (or he should have)
Guy Gardner was killed by one poke in the ribs by one drone
The rest of the JLA got taken out by ONE imperiex drone , superman flew through several drones without problems.


And in all your examples only one of them is Superman beating up on another hero (and that was off panel with Cap Marv), the topic is Supes treatment by other heroes. you'll be hard pressed to show some examples of Superman overcoming another hero, but for some reason writers love it when Flash makes him look weak or when Captain Marvel knocks him out or Batman constantly showing how much smarter than Supes he is. I got no problem with Batman being smarter but Supes can think for himself.

I'm talking about other hero's dismissing Superman like he was nothing.

[marshal99]

And Superman has dismiss other heroes like nothing.

[MaxG]

Then you don't understand Superman at all because Superman doesn't dismiss other heroes.

Read the topic. Give me some examples where Superman is shown punking another hero. Like it's shown when Flash, Green Lantern, Captain Marvel, Batman, Martian Manhunter, etc. etc. is shown punking Superman.

[HartyPotter]

In Superman/Batman , superman somehow KO Captain Marvel and stole his clothes.

Well, it was more likely Batman that beat Captain Marvel, but if it was Superman (it occured off panel), I'd hardly consider Superman playing unconscious for an hour until he could ambush Hawkman particularly brave.

Anyway, I think Superman has more than enough respect. He's an alien with a given set of powers. Why is it so unlikely that once other aliens come to Earth, some of them can match him? Kryptonians aren't supposed to be the strongest alien race in the universe.

[marshal99]

Then you don't understand Superman at all because Superman doesn't dismiss other heroes.

Read the topic. Give me some examples where Superman is shown punking another hero. Like it's shown when Flash, Green Lantern, Captain Marvel, Batman, Martian Manhunter, etc. etc. is shown punking Superman.

:rolleyes: Christ , u must be pretty young , there are so many ways to show superiority without having to go for slugfests. Have u even read OWAW or Superman/Batman or superman : king of the world or emperor joker ??
Superman have been written as so overpowered in relations to other heroes by superman writers especially if the writer is jeph Loeb. He's vastly overrated.

[Brian R]

:rolleyes: Christ , u must be pretty young , there are so many ways to show superiority without having to go for slugfests. Have u even read OWAW or Superman/Batman or superman : king of the world or emperor joker ??
Superman have been written as so overpowered in relations to other heroes by superman writers especially if the writer is jeph Loeb. He's vastly overrated.

Max may very well be young, but you are a Superman-hater, plain and simple.

[MaxG]

And notice he didn't even answer the question. Point being is that writers love to show Captain Marvel standing over a knocked out Superman or Batman dosing him with some green/red k or Green Lantern making him cry.

It's like i mentioned in my 1st post. It's the writers way of saying "look what so and so can do to Superman" .
Showing Superman defeated by another hero is used by writers nowadays to show just how bad ass said superhero is.

A prime example is the Flash guest appearance. It was 30 pages of Superman trying to stop the Flash. 30 pages of him failing to even touch him. 30 pages of the writer showing that nothing that Supes could do could even affect the Flash.

Superman did nothing constructive in that storyline. So what was the point of him being there? Nothing. No point other than to make the Flash look good.

[marshal99]

Max may very well be young, but you are a Superman-hater, plain and simple.

Not so much of a superman-hater but as someone who would like to see other heroes contributions acknowledged as good as superman.

And notice he didn't even answer the question. Point being is that writers love to show Captain Marvel standing over a knocked out Superman or Batman dosing him with some green/red k or Green Lantern making him cry.

It's like i mentioned in my 1st post. It's the writers way of saying "look what so and so can do to Superman" .
Showing Superman defeated by another hero is used by writers nowadays to show just how bad ass said superhero is.

A prime example is the Flash guest appearance. It was 30 pages of Superman trying to stop the Flash. 30 pages of him failing to even touch him. 30 pages of the writer showing that nothing that Supes could do could even affect the Flash.

Superman did nothing constructive in that storyline. So what was the point of him being there? Nothing. No point other than to make the Flash look good.

I got nothing to prove to u. The day that superman is faster than the flash who is the fastest man on earth , can beat martian manhunter at telepathy , knocked out Captain Marvel "continously" ( As far as i remember , Cap knocked superman out ONCE , not twice , not continously , most of the time , it's pretty much stalemate , Eclipsed superman gave Cap such a beating , he had bruises all over and looked like crap and superman beat Cap at arm wrestling in Shazam's own book , i don't know where this continously came from) , i'll be dropping DC titles if superman get anymore suped up.
As far as a GL's ring goes , it can be the most powerful weapon in the universe so there's nothing wrong with that showing , not when the rest of the JLA were also helpless. It's not the justice league of superman , it's the combined heroes justice league of america , there's nothing bad about the showing. Even a Qwardian yellow ring can render the JLA useless , remember Nero ?
I asked again , have u actually read OWAW , Emperor Joker , Superman/batman (where bats and supes make the superheroes that guest starred looked like chumps) and all those books i mentioned ??

[fuaak]

I agree. Him getting smacked around, IMO, is his karma for making the rest of the heroes look like they're pointless, redundant, or useless. The writers (Loeb in particular) have made Supes the only hero that matters in the bigger stories and try to pass that off as "well, he's an icon."

Precisely. This applies in many ways to Batman as well. Being the first doesn't mean that you should get to be the last as well. The DC universe is populated by hundreds of heroes, and all of them need to get to look good.

There's two ways to accomplish this: either Supes/Bats jobs to other heroes occasionally, or he NEVER appears in the same comic/fights the same villains as other heroes. Either way, you simply can't have Mr. Better Than You as a team player.

[Stanlos]

Chuck Austen superman ?! The Austen Superman who can crack jokes while beating up villains ? The Austen Superman who would smirk and wise crack one minute and then dramatically faint the next ? The Austen Superman who can talk like a pompous jerkoff while smirking all the time when fighting ? The Austen Superman who can suddenly acted recklessly and wanted to kill some no-name villain because some orphan died when the issue before , Superman couldn't bring himself to kill Manchester Black even when Black make him think he had killed Lois. Guess an Orphan is worth more to Superman than Lois eh ?

I disagree that superman is made to look like a chump by other DCU heroes , go read OWAW , go read Superman/Batman , go read all of superman issues by Jeph Loeb. If anything , DC has made the rest of the DCU look bad.

In Superman/Batman , superman somehow KO Captain Marvel and stole his clothes.
Martian Manhunter couldn't last 2 panels with Doomsday rex , Superman made him afraid.
Martian Manhunter got slapped around by that Angel bullhost or whatever , Superman stood toe to toe with him.
Doomsday got reduced to a skeleton by a Imperiex blast , superman can not only withstand it , he is fine afterwards and still can fight with Darkseid.
Hippolyta got killed by just one drone
Aquaman was killed by just one drone (or he should have)
Guy Gardner was killed by one poke in the ribs by one drone
The rest of the JLA got taken out by ONE imperiex drone , superman flew through several drones without problems.

I kind of have to scratch my head on the claim that other heroes are making SUPERMAN look bad rather than the other way around. I mean some creators from the Superman office don't even bother to find out about the other characters they are writing (OWAW anyone) and just diss them in the name of boosting the S.

[Supes35]

I agree. Him getting smacked around, IMO, is his karma for making the rest of the heroes look like they're pointless, redundant, or useless. The writers (Loeb in particular) have made Supes the only hero that matters in the bigger stories and try to pass that off as "well, he's an icon."


You have to be frekin' kidding me. Superman hasn't made other heros look useless. Its been the other way around for years. Its not character growth. Its character assasination.

There are other heros yes, but Superman is an icon, and that fact has to be respected. The same for Batman and Wonder Woman. Making them look bad just to make other heros look good translates to the writer not being good enough to make a particular character good on their own merit, without treading on another.

Regardless of how many heros are, Superman, Batman, and WW are always going to be the top dogs, and people have to accept that. They need to get back to a Superman that can think on his own, and ACTUALLY uses his reporter skills as leads to stop a villain like what happen in the old days. We need to get back to a Batman that remains in his own universe and is protecting HIS OWN city, instead of fighting supervillains. Batman belongs in Gotham City, protecting his own city, not fighting a bunch of superpowered aliens. Wonder Woman needs to be in her own universe as well, fighting her own battles and her own villains.

I hope that the new crisis actually puts these characters back into their own universes, instead of having them tread on each other. A teamup should only come once every couple years, not every single month. It should be special, not something that happens all the time. And, the characters should not be treading on each other.

Superman should not be dumbed down for anyone. They should go back to writing him as a HERO, not a wimpering guy who whines about his problems (ahem, For Tomorrow arc by Azzarello). Superman should go back to a guy others look up to. They shouldn't worship him, but he should be the one guy they respect, because despite the darkness of the world, he still remains a hero. They shouldn't decrease is IQ either, just to make guys like J'onn look good. Superman needs to go back to being a fireman, who helps out when needed, not a wimpering fool.

Batman should be the anti-hero of sorts, the rogue cop who does have a heart. His origins fit his personality.

Diana should become more warrior like.

Generally speaking, Superman is a symbol of hope and that has to be respected, not dismissed. He's SUPERMAN for a reason, and it has nothing to do with his powers. Its the person inside that makes him a HERO, that makes him SUPERMAN, not the powers.

"Not so much of a superman-hater but as someone who would like to see other heroes contributions acknowledged as good as superman"....endquote

And they are.

But, Superman has to be the person others look to, the one who TEACHES others how to be HEROS. It was once said that Superman taught everyone how to be heros. That has to be respected.

There's a REASON why he's considered an icon, and as I said before, it has less to do with his abilities and more to do with who he is, on the inside.

People need to accept that Superman will always be considered top dog, and move on. Same with Batman or WW.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

I hate when Superman is played as a DUMB so Bats can look good.

I hate when people say that J'Onn and Diana are "nearly/ as powerful" as Superman. Why? Because then, Superman has no meaning anymore, in terms of power (of course, everyone has the right to have their opinion).

Superman IS Power, dammit. The thing is, writers are afraid, or don't know how to write him.

He should be the strongest, PERIOD. No one, and I mean NO ONE (except the likes of DARKSEID), should be NEARLY as powerful as Superman.

Yes, The Flash can be faster, I don't have a problem with that. Why? Becuase I know that if Superman were faster than The Flash, there would be NO POINT in having the Flash. The SAME with Superman.

So, Superman should be the strength, stamina, invulnerability, array of powers and leadership.

Batman should have the gadgets and the tactics.

WW the warrior.

J'Onn the telepath.

Flash the speed.

ETC.

BTW, this looks like a thread I opened, "what would be *your* take on Superman?" Perhaps you guys and gals would like to post there. It's here, in the Superman forum.

[sikkbones]

Well, it was more likely Batman that beat Captain Marvel, but if it was Superman (it occured off panel), I'd hardly consider Superman playing unconscious for an hour until he could ambush Hawkman particularly brave.

Anyway, I think Superman has more than enough respect. He's an alien with a given set of powers. Why is it so unlikely that once other aliens come to Earth, some of them can match him? Kryptonians aren't supposed to be the strongest alien race in the universe.

they might be the strongest alien if exposed to a yellow sun.