"This is probably the best that Captain America has ever been..."

[Sir Tim Drake]

In his capsule review (http://www.thefourthrail.com/reviews/snapjudgments/031405/snapshots.shtml) of Captain America #4, Randy Lander writes:

This is probably the best that Captain America has ever been, and it's certainly the best it's ever been in the 20 years since I've been reading it. Oh, I've still got a special place in my heart for a lot of the Gruenwald run, but on a pure craft level, this is probably better comics.

Now, I'm not saying that the Brubaker/Epting/Lark Captain America is bad. In fact, it's excellent; #3 was the best Cap story I've read since Mark Waid's first run. (In the interest of full disclosure, I dropped the series after the end of Mark's second run.) But calling it the best Captain America ever is a very strong statement. First of all, I believe such a judgment is very premature. Second, Randy implies that the current Captain America is better than the three Steranko issues, the entire Englehart run, and the nine Stern/Byrne issues, among other things. And given that Randy only compares it to the Gruenwald run, I suspect he may not even have read the Steranko or Englehart issues.

Is anyone else annoyed by this, or is it just me?

[edited to tone it down a bit]

[Mike Smash!]

I have no frame of reference with other Cap runs, but I've read the first four issues and am really enjoying CAPTAIN AMERICA. I'm not a classic Cap fan, so it's quite a feat when a writer can convince me how cool a character I never gave a second glance to is. Bendis was able to make me do this with DAREDEVIL and Waid did it with FANTASTIC FOUR.

I'm on board for the forseeable future.

[Lavteria]

I'm annoyed also. Its a good run, a great run. But not the greatest.

[Ivan Isaacs]

Gruenwald's run will maybe stay my favorite run forever and that's because he had 100+ issues and MUCH space to explore Cap, gave him a cool cast (characters like Nomad, Battlestar, Diamondback and the rest of the Serpent Society, Impala, Jack Frost, Demolitian Man, Crossbones, Machinesmith, Hauptmann Deutschland et al) to "play" with and had this cool adventure character as well as some political issues.

It's no secret that Brubaker is my favorite writer for American comics these days (followed by Andi Watson if anybody is interested to know) but how can somebody compare those 4 issues to other arcs?
At least one should wait for the first storyarc to wrap before comparing it.
Sure, Brubaker's Cap is great - it has an exciting story, well-written plot, brilliant dialogue and one of Marvel's best artists (Epting and Lark), but I want some more issues to say "That's the greatest Cap EVER!".
I'm hoping that Brubaker will stay on this title as long as possible, because I'm really enjoying Cap for the first time since Gruenwald left the book. Sure Waid, was cool but he had fights with Harras/Chase, that took the quality down and some things just read like a repetion of stories written by Gruenwald.

[Beatnikman]

First of all, I believe such a judgment is very premature.
I just don't see how anyone could argue this point.

I am really, really digging this book. Cap is my favorite character, but there have been plenty of times that the title was far from my favorite comic book. Right now, this is as good or better than anything out there, and I absolutely love it.

I came in at the end of Gru's run, which had spiralled into some serious cheesiness, then I don't think I could have liked Waid and Garney's run any more than I did. It was fantastic. I've read the two volumes of Essential Cap, so I've seen Lee and Kirby and Steranko and some others. And I don't think any of those runs have held my attention like this one has.

But four issues is definitely not enough to determine "best ever."

[HartyPotter]

I have no clue if it's the best ever, but I consider Captain America to be among perhaps the top 3 best superhero titles out right now. Perhaps even the best comic altogether right now. And it's tough for me to say that, because I'm not even a fan of the character.

[Red State Cap]

My collection goes from the early 70's to the end of Vol. 1. Vol 2 killed my interest in comics. I've read here and there in Vol 2, 3, and 4, which generally suck.
I usually like the benefit of hindsight to say "this is the best run ever." So I think it's premature to make that pronouncement now.
However, this run is very, very promising. If Marvel keeps this team together and they keep putting out this level of work, I will have no problem calling this the best CA run ever. I can say right now that the art might be the best ever. I like Dwyer's style equally or better, but Epting is more polished. The story and characterization are also excellent -- more sophisticated and adult than I can remember at any other time. I particularly applaud Mr. Brubaker for moving Cap away from his weak, milquetoast personality toward a more hard-edged outlook.
Stern and Byrne had a great, albeit short, run. CA #253 and 254 are just about my all-time favorites.
I really loved the Gruenwald/Dwyer/Lim era. Those were some great comics while they were developing the Diamondback relationship and Crossbones was the main foe. Unfortunately that era ended with poor art and poor stories. Right now I would put the current run right up there with the best of them, but we'll have to see where it goes.

RSC

[Kirk G]

In his capsule review (http://www.thefourthrail.com/reviews/snapjudgments/031405/snapshots.shtml) of Captain America #4, Randy Lander writes:



Now, I'm not saying that the Brubaker/Epting/Lark Captain America is bad. In fact, it's excellent; #3 was the best Cap story I've read since Mark Waid's first run. (In the interest of full disclosure, I dropped the series after the end of Mark's second run.) But calling it the best Captain America ever is a very strong statement. First of all, I believe such a judgment is very premature. Second, Randy implies that the current Captain America is better than the three Steranko issues, the entire Englehart run, and the nine Stern/Byrne issues, among other things. And given that Randy only compares it to the Gruenwald run, I suspect he may not even have read the Steranko or Englehart issues.

Is anyone else annoyed by this, or is it just me?

[edited to tone it down a bit]

I have to admit, when they came out, I thought the three Steranko issues stunk. It was apparant to me that the series had lost its way, back around issue #96 of Tales of Suspense, when someone (Stan or Jack?) decided to have Steve Rogers announce his secret ID and unmask. WHY? What possible good would it do?

Of course, in the very next issue, a host of imitators crop up to try to take his place, and Steve Rogers realizes that he can never stop or put down the mantle.
Now, almost immediately afterward, the Black Panther guest stars and the Red Skull appears, complete with the Fourth Sleeper saga, which, though I didn't enjoy where it went, was actually pretty good. The exhiles followed and they were bad IMHO, but the several one shots that followed in, say 102-108 were hoh hum.

By the time Steranko hit, though his art was a startling change, it was obviously an attempt to turn back the clock and give Cap back a secret ID, but frankly, it lost it's way just when we were all wondering, who the heck it really was under the mask....
Nice mystery, nice set up, completely dashed with the next few issues...which picked up with the skull and the cosmic cube and the orgin of the Falcon.

Now, between the first sleeper saga inTales of Suspense , the 4th Sleeper, the Steranko trio and the first Falcon arc, that was pretty good. My only canidate for additional merit would have to be the missing cop story arc that leads into the Grey Gargoil (sp) assalt on Sheild, but the series looses it after that.
Plus, I must admit that I personally feel the nine or so Stern/Bryne issues are the top of the heep.... nothing has ever done as fine as those issues to capture the 'true" cap mythos and all... and I wish they would have continued...especially with the Baron Blood arc begining in the end of "War & Rememberance".

IMHO, nothing else since.... until perhaps this current reversion of Cap into another vision, has ever held any merrit for me. None of it.

So, is this the best cap ever.... I don't think so...but it sure has rekindled the dying flames of the earlier great runs as no other creators have for YEARS!
:rolleyes:
'nuff said!@ :cool:

[Alan2099]

This is the best it's been in quite a while, but by now means the best it's ever been.

That, and I hate what they've done with his look.

[powerforward]

loved the stern/byrne run (baron blood!), mark g's stuff had some pretty good highs, and some pretty low lows, but give me 20 more issues just like this and this will be the best cap run ever.

[StoneGold]

By getting irritated by it, you're just giving the reviewers power. Christ, they're website comic book reviewers. That makes them important... how? His opinion is this is the best the book has ever been. How does that effect your life at all?

[Sir Tim Drake]

By getting irritated by it, you're just giving the reviewers power. Christ, they're website comic book reviewers. That makes them important... how? His opinion is this is the best the book has ever been. How does that effect your life at all?

It doesn't. I just thought it was mildly annoying and therefore worth commenting on.

The comment annoyed me because it suggests that Randy has a poor sense of history, and that he's willing to make overblown hyperbolic claims that he wouldn't be able to support. In my opinion, both of these are undesirable traits for a professional reviewer. Randy is apparently not familiar with comics history, but that doesn't stop him from making sweeping claims about it. And despite this, he's one of the more prominent coimcs reviewers on the Internet. I find this rather frustrating.

[Dennis K]

I'm more inclined to agree, this probably is the best Captain America has ever been. CA has long been the vanilla milkshake of the Marvel Universe, and what Brubaker and Epting have done is to give it some spice, make it a book you look forward to reading every month because you can't wait to see how things are going to shake out.

[Sir Tim Drake]

I'm more inclined to agree, this probably is the best Captain America has ever been. CA has long been the vanilla milkshake of the Marvel Universe, and what Brubaker and Epting have done is to give it some spice, make it a book you look forward to reading every month because you can't wait to see how things are going to shake out.

Have you read any or all of the Captain America runs that I mentioned in my initial post?

[Neolucifer]

This is probably the best that Captain America has ever been

Well i pretty much agree with that statement . Now since i've mostly disliked Cap , i maybe got nothing to do here in this thread :D .

Anyway imo the only other cap run/title that can compete with the current run is "Captain America & the Falcon" by the awesome Priest , whose only flaw was the art of the first issues by Bart Sears .

[Beatnikman]

Well i pretty much agree with that statement . Now since i've mostly disliked Cap , i maybe got nothing to do here in this thread :D .

Anyway imo the only other cap run/title that can compete with the current run is "Captain America & the Falcon" by the awesome Priest , whose only flaw was the art of the first issues by Bart Sears .
Really? I've found CA&F to be a pretty muddied storyline, with some, uh ... unique looks at Falcon that were either new character development or just plain old out of character. I haven't liked it much, but I guess I've been picking it up out of a sense of obligation to Cap as a character. In my mind the high point of that book was Joe Bennet's work.

But in the big picture of Captain America comics, I'd put this CA&F title slightly better than Rieber and Austin issues from the Marvel Knights version, and Capwolf, I guess, and behind pretty well everything else ever. I mean, it's cool that you dig it. It just hasn't really entertained me much.

[Neolucifer]

No prob on my side . As i said giving my usual dislike of Cap (and my usual indifference toward falcon) , i might not be a competent judge or authority over what is the best run :D

[Sir Tim Drake]

No prob on my side . As i said giving my usual dislike of Cap (and my usual indifference toward falcon) , i might not be a competent judge or authority over what is the best run :D

But it's good that you, unlike a certain reviewer, are willing to admit it.

[Titan Slade]

Cap fans will problably hate my opinion, because I think Millar's Ultimate Cap is the best written Cap ever.

[Ed Brubaker]

And here I thought this was going to be an ego-stroke thread. :D

Honestly, I think it's a bit early to call this the best or the worst or anything in between. We've got four issues out, which is more than Steranko did, but still... My fondest wish is that we'll do a run that will be remembered years from now in the same way I remember the Englehart/Buscema run.

But, Sir Tim Drake -- if I may be so bold as to comment on this -- I think you're being a little harsh on Randy Lander. His reviews are just his opinion, as all reviews are just opinions of critics. And even in the part you quote, he says "it's certainly the best it's ever been in the 20 years since I've been reading it." So, it seems like he's qualifying his opinion in the exact way you want him to. And he does say "probably" which also leaves room for others to disagree. I guess I don't see what the big deal is, really.

[Sir Tim Drake]

And here I thought this was going to be an ego-stroke thread. :D

Well, since I have the opportunity to stroke your ego... :) You, Steve and Michael are doing a fantastic job. Like I said, #3 was the best Captain America story I've read in years. I'm going to miss your Gotham Central stories but I think your Cap will be an excellent substitute.

Honestly, I think it's a bit early to call this the best or the worst or anything in between. We've got four issues out, which is more than Steranko did, but still... My fondest wish is that we'll do a run that will be remembered years from now in the same way I remember the Englehart/Buscema run.

I think you're on your way there, although I agree that it's still too early to tell.

But, Sir Tim Drake -- if I may be so bold as to comment on this -- I think you're being a little harsh on Randy Lander. His reviews are just his opinion, as all reviews are just opinions of critics. And even in the part you quote, he says "it's certainly the best it's ever been in the 20 years since I've been reading it." So, it seems like he's qualifying his opinion in the exact way you want him to. And he does say "probably" which also leaves room for others to disagree. I guess I don't see what the big deal is, really.

I don't think it's that big of a deal. I thought Randy's poor sense of history was annoying enough to be worth commenting on, but it's certainly not as bad as, for example, the rampant French-bashing in this country. :) I will concede that I'm perhaps being overly harsh and that I didn't notice where he qualified his opinion.

Thanks for your response!

[Titan Slade]

the rampant French-bashing in this country

But the French are so bash-worthy. They did however, invent a great kiss and some great fries :D . They are rather cowerdly in battle though.

[Viking Bastard]

Well, Brubaker's four issues are definately the best I've ever read.

As for credentials: I did not like Stan Lee's Silver Age stories and while I
didn't think Mark Waid's run was bad, I didn't find it anything grand either.
As for Englehart. I haven't read close to the complete run, but what I've
read wasn't really to my liking. It's the early issues, I think. Perhaps it gets
better.

So my view is definately coloured by me not particularly liking past Captain
America stories much. The character has never clicked with me outside of
team titles like the Avengers.

So it's less of me praising the current stories as badmouthing the old.

But the French are so bash-worthy. They did however, invent a great kiss and some great fries :D .
Neither which I believe is theirs. Although I'm not sure about the kissing, but
I doubt it. They do have the best technopop and they do make killer comics.

They are rather cowerdly in battle though.Tell that to the Germans.

[Neolucifer]

Just some enlightening info , we never invented Fries !! They are from Belgium .
So whole renaming french fries into Freedom fries is quite hilarious on our froggy side :D

Great to see you around here sir Brubaker . You have my deep thanks for giving me interest again in Captain america .

[Dial Tone]

I've read every incarnation of Cap, and maybe some of you can't tell, but I am not having any problems identifying the quality. This is the BEST Captain America ever, and mark my words, when all is said and done, Brubaker and Epting will be universally cited as the definitive version of Captain America.

[Paradox]

Sorry, I've gotta go with, "Tim, you're having an overreaction." So you disagree with Randy. Fine. But it seems like you're trying to make him out to be some big rockhead merely because he doesn't share your opinion. The fact that you actually had to "tone it down" says this is a bigger thing to you than you want it to appear.

Different people like different things. Maybe he HAS read the stuff you're talking about, and honestly believes this run to be better. Is that some kind of crime? It's not like he was making factual mistakes that need correction (not that he HASN'T, but, hey, we're all human).

Relax. He's just another nit posting on the internet...like all of us. ;)

Unbunch, youngster. :p

[Baron Bawookles]

People are going to come down on me for this but as a big fan of Cap for 30 some years, I don't like Brubaker's version so far.

To me, he's doing Captain America as Batman. It's dark, there's some mystery to it, he broods over his past, he's got a utility belt with neat stuff in it. You could basically stick Batman into this story and it wouldn't really be any different.

Captain America isn't Batman so this interpretation is not for me.

[JeffreyWKramer]

It doesn't. I just thought it was mildly annoying and therefore worth commenting on.

The comment annoyed me because it suggests that Randy has a poor sense of history, and that he's willing to make overblown hyperbolic claims that he wouldn't be able to support. In my opinion, both of these are undesirable traits for a professional reviewer. Randy is apparently not familiar with comics history, but that doesn't stop him from making sweeping claims about it. And despite this, he's one of the more prominent coimcs reviewers on the Internet. I find this rather frustrating.

This isn't the first time Randy Lander has demonstrated a crappy sense of history.

Best ever? No. Engelhart wrote a great Cap. The Stern/Byrne run, though sadly brief, was awesome. This *is* shaping up to probably be the best CAP run in a long time, though. Easily the best since Waid's first run.

I'm kind of mixed about the Gru run, btw. There was some excellent stuff, but a lot of it was just plain silly - CapWolf, for example - and it got pretty weak toward the end.

[Sir Tim Drake]

Sorry, I've gotta go with, "Tim, you're having an overreaction." So you disagree with Randy. Fine. But it seems like you're trying to make him out to be some big rockhead merely because he doesn't share your opinion. The fact that you actually had to "tone it down" says this is a bigger thing to you than you want it to appear.

Different people like different things. Maybe he HAS read the stuff you're talking about, and honestly believes this run to be better. Is that some kind of crime? It's not like he was making factual mistakes that need correction (not that he HASN'T, but, hey, we're all human).

Relax. He's just another nit posting on the internet...like all of us. ;)

Unbunch, youngster. :p

I am NOT overreacting! And if you keep saying that I am, I'll overreact you!.

Joking, joking! =D

[Titan Slade]

People are going to come down on me for this but as a big fan of Cap for 30 some years, I don't like Brubaker's version so far.

To me, he's doing Captain America as Batman. It's dark, there's some mystery to it, he broods over his past, he's got a utility belt with neat stuff in it. You could basically stick Batman into this story and it wouldn't really be any different.

Captain America isn't Batman so this interpretation is not for me.

It's about time we had Cap written as Batman. We already have had Wolverine written as Batman in Rucka's run. Captain America and Wolverine, the greatest brooding detectives on earth. Move over Batman, there are some new detectives in town :D .

[Ed Brubaker]

No, he's not Batman. Get a grip. If he's Batman, then the Lee/Steranko Cap was Batman, too, since he was brooding and used tools and sought clues to fight Hydra. Since when does Batman work with anything like Shield, or the government? Say, never?

And the utility belt? He had it when I got here, at least I decided it should actually contain things and not just be a decoration. ;)

[Titan Slade]

No, he's not Batman. Get a grip. If he's Batman, then the Lee/Steranko Cap was Batman, too, since he was brooding and used tools and sought clues to fight Hydra. Since when does Batman work with anything like Shield, or the government? Say, never?

And the utility belt? He had it when I got here, at least I decided it should actually contain things and not just be a decoration. ;)

I was just joking, hence the :D at the end of my post. But Rucka's Wolverine, was somewhat detective like, and I know your Cap is not. And Mr. Brubaker, what is exactly in Cap's belt pouches? Any weed :D .

[Dennis K]

Have you read any or all of the Captain America runs that I mentioned in my initial post?


Beats me. It wasn't until only recently that I even cared who the creative team on any given book was, I was interested in the characters. I never cared enough for CA to even buy the book each month, I'd read my cousin's copy after he was finished with it, and let him read my copy of ASM. So for me, this version of Captain America is probably still the best one I've ever read.

[Paradox]

**sends Sir Tim Drake to his room**:

I am NOT overreacting! And if you keep saying that I am, I'll overreact you!.

Joking, joking! =D

That's IT, little mister! You're grounded!

Fine! You hate me! Do it in your room...QUIETLY! :p

[Typo Lad]

I've actually just completed reading the complete run of Cap (although I confess, two issues into the Austen run, I had to skip becasue my eyes were bleeding).

I would say that Brubaker's Cap is, in a sense, the best "Cap as a Soldier" that we've had in a very long time. Maybe even the best version.

Gruenwald did the best "Cap as a Symbol" and Waid the best "Cap as THE Superhero" (narrowly beating out Englehart). Kirby did "Cap as a Metaphor", which I didn't care for. Byrne/Stern's run was more about Steve Rogers than it was Cap, in a sense, which I didn't care for.

Um...yeah, so anyway, Brubaker has a different take on Cap, and so far I really like it. Different enough to interst but with careful attention to the past.

[Baron Bawookles]

No, he's not Batman. Get a grip. If he's Batman, then the Lee/Steranko Cap was Batman, too, since he was brooding and used tools and sought clues to fight Hydra. Since when does Batman work with anything like Shield, or the government? Say, never?

And the utility belt? He had it when I got here, at least I decided it should actually contain things and not just be a decoration. ;)

The particular details are different, of course, but the feel and gist is the same. It's okay, this is the kind of stuff you like to write, Ed, there's nothing intrinsically wrong with it, it's just not how I want to see Cap presented.

Nuff said!

[StoneGold]

I've actually just completed reading the complete run of Cap (although I confess, two issues into the Austen run, I had to skip becasue my eyes were bleeding).


Not that this matters much, but Austen only scripted those issues. Full pencils were done before he ever got there.

[Ed Brubaker]

The particular details are different, of course, but the feel and gist is the same. It's okay, this is the kind of stuff you like to write, Ed, there's nothing intrinsically wrong with it, it's just not how I want to see Cap presented.

Nuff said!

Fair enough, but I'm only pointing out that it's not as if Cap has never been portrayed this way before. In fact, the classic Cap of the Steranko run is very similar to what I'm doing. As is the Englehart Cap in many ways.

And really, I don't think the feel or gist are the same at all. Having written both, they feel very different to me. Cap has more of a superhero and military bent to it. And he's a globe-trotter. We've been all over the world by issue 6, it seems. The only thing at all similar for me as a writer is that they both are very effective fighters.

[Titan Slade]

Fair enough, but I'm only pointing out that it's not as if Cap has never been portrayed this way before. In fact, the classic Cap of the Steranko run is very similar to what I'm doing. As is the Englehart Cap in many ways.

And really, I don't think the feel or gist are the same at all. Having written both, they feel very different to me. Cap has more of a superhero and military bent to it. And he's a globe-trotter. We've been all over the world by issue 6, it seems. The only thing at all similar for me as a writer is that they both are very effective fighters.

It's Cap's utility belt :D , that is making him relate your Cap to Batman. Other than that, there are no similarities between the two, except they both have the color blue in their costumes :D .

[Baron Bawookles]

It's Cap's utility belt :D , that is making him relate your Cap to Batman. Other than that, there are no similarities between the two, except they both have the color blue in their costumes :D .

Well, if I most explain why I'm thinking this:
1) The brooding over a dead sidekick kind of reminds me of Batman. True, Bucky died a long time before the second Robin but Cap kinda got over that a long time ago. The fact Cap is brooding over his past again reminds me of Batman, usually Cap is portrayed as having a more balanced head on his shoulders.

2) The darker edge to Cap as portrayed from the very first issue where Cap is all belligerent in front of Sharon about bystanders getting hurt, "what was I supposed to do, let the bomb go off?" That kind of Ends-Justifies-The-Means is usually reserved for the current anti-social Batman.
Cap would normally be appalled that civilians would get hurt from his actions.

3) The sort of noirish mystery element to the current storyline with the death of the Red Skull, etc.

4) And yeah, that lame, ugly, pouchy belt that some artist a while back thought looked cool.....sigh....... :(

Those are my reasons. No big deal if you see it differently.

[Red State Cap]

If killing terrorists to prevent a bomb going off is "anti-social," then is letting a bomb go off "social?" :confused:

RSC

[C.O. Jones]

Any idea what's become of the Golden Girl character that took over for Bucky back in the 50's?

[Atomlad]

I recently read the Marvel Essentials Vol 2 of Captain America, and Cap seems to be whacking people left and right. Not Mano-e-Mano, but military-action style. For example, ramming a flaming speedboat into a gun position on the Red Skull's island base. Sure, they don't show the gun crews running around on fire, but they don't show them walking away either. Another one that sticks out is Cap rigging a motorbike with an exploding gas tank, and jumping it into a gaggle of Hydra agents. Ouch.

I'm not sure that the Betsy Ross Golden girl exists in the current Marvel retcon timeline of multiple Captain Americas. She was the partner of the ex-Patriot Cap, who was #3. I believe they were married, but it was never really referenced much.

[Lavteria]

2) The darker edge to Cap as portrayed from the very first issue where Cap is all belligerent in front of Sharon about bystanders getting hurt, "what was I supposed to do, let the bomb go off?" That kind of Ends-Justifies-The-Means is usually reserved for the current anti-social Batman.
Cap would normally be appalled that civilians would get hurt from his actions.
Exactly. Cap is 100% against End Justifies The Means attitude. He should be the opposite. But then again I think today's society has moved very far into the End Justifies the means camp that people no longer care about principles.

4) And yeah, that lame, ugly, pouchy belt that some artist a while back thought looked cool.....sigh....... :(

I agree, I also dislike the "chainmail" look to his uniform. If they want to make it look more like chainmail than previous artists fine, but at least make it look like chainmail, geez.

[Red State Cap]

You're saying that you believe the end justifying the means is by definition unpricipled. While that's your opinion and you have a right to it, I don't share it.
I have absolutely no problem with Cap doing what's necessary to win. That's a big part of why I'm liking this run, in that Mr. Brubaker is portraying Cap as someone who'll get the job done and not snivel about it.

RSC

[Neolucifer]

Anyway even if indeed this cap was too dark , cant the guy be allowed even for a moment to be confused and having a temper after the events of DA ?

[Mike Smash!]

You're saying that you believe the end justifying the means is by definition unpricipled. While that's your opinion and you have a right to it, I don't share it.
I have absolutely no problem with Cap doing what's necessary to win. That's a big part of why I'm liking this run, in that Mr. Brubaker is portraying Cap as someone who'll get the job done and not snivel about it.

RSCThere's getting the job done no matter what you have to do, and then there's refusing to cut corners morally.

The ends justifying the means is the Punisher. He'll just shoot someone in the head form across the street, set their house on fire with them inside or torture them for information. That's his gig.

Cap refuses to do any of that. I can imagine him being forced to kill, but it's something he'd never do out of convenience or expediency. And even if he was forced, it would weigh heavily on him, and Cap's gone through alot lately. Other people have noticed this and have shown concern.

[Baron Bawookles]

Exactly. Cap is 100% against End Justifies The Means attitude. He should be the opposite. But then again I think today's society has moved very far into the End Justifies the means camp that people no longer care about principles.

You're right, so maybe this is the Captain America that we deserve, that is reflective of America right now, which is a pretty ugly thing in my opinion.

[Den]

I don't know if it's the best ever, but it is IMO among the best that I've read. I've said it before, but Cap's got good reason to be more on edge right now. Whether you loved it or hated it, it would be bad writing to assume Avengers Disassembled wouldn't affect the man. Maybe I'm reading too deeply into this, but Cap has lost his faith in America before, but now it seems he has doubts about himself. This storyline is an excellent chance for him to do more than solve a murder, but also regain his faith in himself and the good he does.

YMMV, natch

[Baron Bawookles]

I've said it before, but Cap's got good reason to be more on edge right now. Whether you loved it or hated it, it would be bad writing to assume Avengers Disassembled wouldn't affect the man.




If Ed writes Cap ruminating and saying, "I can't believe the Avengers disbanded over such a lame and unbelievable series of events..." then I will proudly declare this the best Cap writing ever!!!! ;)

[Den]

If Ed writes Cap ruminating and saying, "I can't believe the Avengers disbanded over such a lame and unbelievable series of events..." then I will proudly declare this the best Cap writing ever!!!! ;)

Heh... :)

Or at least the most honest... but somehow I think Ed's bosses wouldn't be amused :D

[Ed Brubaker]

I'm sorry, but other than one scene in the first issue, that's already been addressed ad nauseum, can anyone point to anything else that shows this Cap to be some kind of Punisher-Cap combo?

In issue 2 he saves a terrorist who's on fire, even.

Did he kill anyone in issue 3 or 4? Did he show some lack of care for human life? No.

[Baron Bawookles]

Heh... :)

Or at least the most honest... but somehow I think Ed's bosses wouldn't be amused :D

Not to mention Bendis, who basically RUNS Marvel nowadays. Joey Q's only job is to go out and get him coffee and donuts....

[Den]

I'm sorry, but other than one scene in the first issue, that's already been addressed ad nauseum, can anyone point to anything else that shows this Cap to be some kind of Punisher-Cap combo?

In issue 2 he saves a terrorist who's on fire, even.

Did he kill anyone in issue 3 or 4? Did he show some lack of care for human life? No.

Good points, and I don't think that he's shown a disregard for human life, but he does seem on edge and keeping folks, even fury, at arm's length. He's only really opened up to this series to Sharon (Which is why I've admited she's been a good choice to partner up with him). Like I said, I maybe reading too much into your storyline, but Cap seems full of doubt, and this time more about himself and his past (And now that I've read #4, I can't say I blame him) rather than his nation. In our "for what it's worth" department, I think you've done some great characterization.

[Ed Brubaker]

Not to mention Bendis, who basically RUNS Marvel nowadays. Joey Q's only job is to go out and get him coffee and donuts....

You do realize you're talking about one of my best friends, right? And the guy who got me this job?

It's okay if you don't like Avengers, but don't get personal, please.

[Red State Cap]

I've been a Cap fan for 20 years and my collection goes back nearly 30 years. I think the issue for SOME Cap fans in this respect is historical characterization.
CA fans have been "indoctrinated," for lack of a better word, by 25 years of CA writers who are willing to completely ignore the issue of killing in combat, and furthermore who have been willing to "bail him out" of having to kill anyone for any reason. So a lot of people think it's realistically possible to solve every situation without having to kill anyone, ever. Therefore, Cap's historical refusal to kill, though patently ludicrous, looks tenable simply because writers have written it that way for so long.
I have always considered this a HUGE weakness in the way the character has been portrayed. Captain America is supposed to have the credentials of fighting through the horriffic carnage of WWII, yet is at the same time alleged to have a total aversion to killing. Of course, he must've just bopped everyone on the chin, leaving the moral consequences of killing to the poor G.I.s.
Cap has to face a stark choice -- kill terrorists, or allow hundreds of innocents to die. Cap makes the only choice, the right choice, and people suddenly think he's the Punisher. Bull****! Thing is, Cap should have faced many, many such choices in his career, but Mr. Brubaker might be the first Cap writer in 25 years to address this in a frank and realistic manner.

RSC

[Atomlad]

I kind of look at it this way- Cap is a soldier, and like a soldier, he is only sanctioned to kill enemy combatants in a battle situation. For example, enemy soldiers in WWII, or Hydra, AIM etc. agents on a (presumabley) UN sanctioned SHIELD mission or an official mission for the US.

Just as a US Marine would not take justice into his own hands on the streets, neither would Cap, unless it was in the service of saving innocent lives. He has no sanction or moral right to do so. This is the crucial difference between Cap and the Punisher.

That being said, I think Cap has seen enough killing from WWII to avoid using lethal force if any other way is possible, rather than default to it as a regular soldier in combat would. He also has the skills and equipment to avoid it.

As I said, reading through the early issues of Cap, you'll see him taking out Hydra and Red Skull soldiers by the boatload, but he will not treat criminals, even superpowered ones, the same way.

[Neolucifer]

I kind of look at it this way- Cap is a soldier, and like a soldier, he is only sanctioned to kill enemy combatants in a battle situation. For example, enemy soldiers in WWII, or Hydra, AIM etc. agents on a (presumabley) UN sanctioned SHIELD mission or an official mission for the US.

Just as a US Marine would not take justice into his own hands on the streets, neither would Cap, unless it was in the service of saving innocent lives. He has no sanction or moral right to do so. This is the crucial difference between Cap and the Punisher.

And so far it is precisely what he has done in cap #1 with terrorists . Its just that his temper isnt as usual , again a cause of the DA trauma , and the whole fake diamondback affair .

[Baron Bawookles]

You do realize you're talking about one of my best friends, right? And the guy who got me this job?

It's okay if you don't like Avengers, but don't get personal, please.

I don't mean to offend, I was just making a joke that Bendis is writing A LOT for Marvel and seems to be able to do whatever he wants with the characters, something that has been noted by many people before.

I don't like the Avengers, I LOVE the Avengers which is why I thought Avengers Disassembled was doo-doo on a stick. Even most Bendis fans acknowledge it was not a shining moment for him.

I'm allowed to have my opinion on this, I didn't say anything personal about Bendis (or you), I don't know you guys. Don't get uptight, Ed, not on comic book forums, it's not worth it! :)

No harm meant and take care! :)

[Ed Brubaker]

Thanks. I didn't think you were going over the line. But I've had a few fans at least try to get me to say bad things about Brian and I think that's just tacky. Just wanted to make sure we weren't heading down that path.

[Gaz]

Thanks. I didn't think you were going over the line. But I've had a few fans at least try to get me to say bad things about Brian and I think that's just tacky. Just wanted to make sure we weren't heading down that path.
Hey, I like Brian's writing but AD wasn't his best moment.
Besides, give Joey some respect. Ralph gets Bendis' coffee, he just supervises. ;)
And I think some people are worried that you were going down Millar's Ultimate Cap road with the more soldier-y Cap, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Good job. :)

PS (and OT) what's the arrangement for Gotham Central now,Ed? :confused:

[Baron Bawookles]

Thanks. I didn't think you were going over the line. But I've had a few fans at least try to get me to say bad things about Brian and I think that's just tacky. Just wanted to make sure we weren't heading down that path.

Gotcha. I think I can speak for everyone here that we really appreciate when comic book writers/artists post on these boards and it must be tough at times when people are like "this sucks, that sucks". I appreciate your patience and your input here.

I can be strongly opinionated, it's one of my weaknesses, but I try to take everything with a grain of salt. Just remember, I may not be crazy about your take on Captain America, but that doesn't mean I think you are a bad writer or anything, just not what I'm looking for with Cap. Certainly other people are digging it and that's great!

Peace out and take care!
-Brooks

[Kirk G]

Gotcha. I think I can speak for everyone here that we really appreciate when comic book writers/artists post on these boards and it must be tough at times when people are like "this sucks, that sucks". I appreciate your patience and your input here.

It's what I'm looking for with Cap. Certainly other people are digging it and that's great!

Peace out and take care!
-Brooks


I gotta agree. Thanks for posting and answering.

[Baron Bawookles]

I gotta agree. Thanks for posting and answering.

Whoa, Kirk G! You changed what I was saying in your quote from "not what I'm looking for" to "what I'm looking for"! Don't do that or I'll have to sick the Hulk on ya!!

[Forefinger]

I've always liked Captain America. But since his stories in the early 90's, when I first started collecting comics, I haven't been able to stand more than 10 issues or so of any of his series. If Ed and co stay on this title for awhile, I'll be collecting it for awhile. In 3 issues he has made me just say "wow" with every one. I thought that I'd just have to wait for an Ultimate Captain America to enjoy so solo cap stories, but I'm very pleased that I picked up issue 1 based on the fact that I really enjoyed Brubaker's Gotham Central arcs. I just wish that he didn't sign an exclusive deal with Marvel. Oh well, I'd like to see him take on Daredevil as long as he's exclusive. Great work to all!

[Kirk G]

Whoa, Kirk G! You changed what I was saying in your quote from "not what I'm looking for" to "what I'm looking for"! Don't do that or I'll have to sick the Hulk on ya!!

Ooops! Sorry bout that.
At least you noticed and caught it.

I was trying to say that the current Cap is thrilling me, and that's what I'M looking for these days in Cap.

On and off, his books and adventures, when handled right, have been very exciting, but not always. As I've probably listed ad nausem before....
Kirby's first Sleeper saga, the 4th Sleeper Saga, the Black Panther tie-in, the birth of the Falcon, the missing Cop saga into Sheila Helecarier, Byrne-Stern run, Steranko trio, and the current run #1-4 are really good, though I enjoyed parts of Mike Zeck's run as well. :D