What the heck is up with Rappers?

[Boldido]

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=762&e=1&u=/ap/20050318/ap_en_mu/lil__kim_shootout

It looks like Lil' Kim will be going to prison for perjury for lying about what she did or didn't see outside a nightclub where a shooting took place. The article indicates that it has something to do with a rival rap group.

Why does this kind of shit exist with rappers? Tupac v. Biggie East Coast v. West Coast. Lil' Kim v. some group I never heard of.

The closest to this you get in country music is the Dixie Chicks calling Toby Keith a redneck and him calling them pinkos.

I can't recall ever hearing stories about Bono doing a drive by on Michael Stipe's house.

WTF????

[macul]

I think it has something to do with "keeping it real." Or "street cred." Or more likely, they are just a bunch of idiots and thugs.

[Valmore]

I can't recall ever hearing stories about Bono doing a drive by on Michael Stipe's house.

No, but in retaliation for Michael's prank of t-ping his rose bushes, Bono did send a flaming bag of dig poop via personal courier to Michael's house.

[hulahulk]

No, but in retaliation for Michael's prank of t-ping his rose bushes, Bono did send a flaming bag of dig poop via personal courier to Michael's house.


I heard the Cure (gang color: black) were going after the Smiths (gang color: lapis lazuli) because of the name trademark (ya see, Robert SMITH is the lead singer for the Cure...o.k. bad attempt at humor).

[HomerJay]

I think it has something to do with "keeping it real." Or "street cred." Or more likely, they are just a bunch of idiots and thugs.

I vote for the latter...

[Slappy san]

These threads always make me roll my eyes and shake my head.

[estee]

These threads always make me roll my eyes and shake my head.

Doesn't that hurt?

[Slappy san]

Doesn't that hurt?

Not at all :rolleyes:

[monkeysweat]

These threads always make me roll my eyes and shake my head.
Welcome to the Wonderful World of Ignorantly Generalized Opinion.

[Boldido]

This wasn't intended to be a "all rappers are thugs and criminals" thread, but rather a genuine legitmate inquiry.

Many of the big league rappers have come to violent ends or have been charged with serious crimes long after they have acheived more than a modicum of success. Others, have crossed over and enjoyed massive mainstream popularity and yet seem to be dimissed by the hiphop community as sellouts.

Tupac...dead.
Notorious BIG...dead
Lil' Kim...getting Martha Stewart's old cell
Will Smith...sellout
Queen Latifah...sellout.

What about P.Diddy and Snoop Dogg? Have they done both? Are they successful crossovers who have kept the respect of the hip hop community?

[Boldido]

Welcome to the Wonderful World of Ignorantly Generalized Opinion.

If you find the opinions to be ignorant, then how about shedding a little light in the darkness?

[west3man]

Tupac...dead.
Notorious BIG...dead
Lil' Kim...getting Martha Stewart's old cell
Will Smith...sellout
Queen Latifah...sellout. I dunno about those last two.

Will was never all that respected in the hip hop community. He caught much hell for his style of storytellin' rap. You can't sell out if you never bought in.

Latifah... I dunno. I never heard anyone call her a sell-out, but then my tastes diverged from the "main branch" of the hip-hop community ... somewhere around the age of 2. That's not a dig. I've just always used a different shovel. Yeah. I dig differently.

Latifah hasn't had a hip-hop single of album out in a loooong time. In fact, she's done more work outside of hip-hop than within it, if I'm not mistaken. So, I won't say you're wrong about some folks calling her a sellout. (I just haven't heard it.) I'll just say that THOSE folks are... wrong, that is.

[thehod]

Time for a song.

Take it away Goldie Looking Chain....

guns don't kill people, rappers do
Ask any politician and he'll tell you it's true
It's a fact, music makes you violent
Like Michael Jackson telling little Timmy to be silent
You don't believe me, here's my hype
Offer me the record and i'll show you the type
Of criminal this rap shit is breeding
It's a fact that MC hammer left me bleeding
Vanilla Ice made my mother say, "fuck it"

But i didn't, i got involved
Cypress fucking hill taught me to make a fucking bomb
so i started, i bought another tape
The mob boys snapped me, my cock and balls ache
So remember kids till the rap doubles up
Guns don't kill people it's just rap

Guns don't kill people, rappers do
summon the police
Woop Woop Woop
Guns don't kill people, rappers do

Guns don't kill people, rappers do
I seen it on a documentary on bbc 2
Shot to death outside hyper value
Guns blazing like Michael Caine in Zulu

The type of criminal rap is breeding
Shot in the chest no one here to stop the bleeding
Goldie to base over, are you receiving?
Remember rap tracks in '87
propper hip-hop heaven
Biggie and 2pac R.I.P
Even jam master jay's in the cemetery

Guns don't kill people, rappers do
Summon the police
Woop Woop Woop
Guns don't kill people, rappers do
Summon the police
Woop Woop Woop

Guns don't kill people, rappers do
I'm a fucking rapper and i might kill you
As a rapper I'm teachin' you a lesson
AK-47 is a smith and weston
Just say no, like Sammo
Bulletproof vest, two guns and ammo
Hip-hop gangsta trippin'
Even Eminem's into pistol whippin'
P.diddy, J.Lo in a nightclub with a gun
Heard Snoop Dogg now wants to bust a cap
Guns don't kill people, it's just rap

One, two- yo, face my shoe
My name's Mike Balls and I'm coming through
Gun crimes, stabbings and burglarization
Is on the rise all acoss the nation
The safety's off and the pistol's aimed
The yardies and the mafia always get blamed
Politicians ashamed and they haven't got a clue
Rap is more deadly than fucking kung-fu

Guns don't kill people, rappers do
Summon the police
Woop Woop Woop
Guns don't kill people, rappers do
Summon the police
Woop Woop Woop

Guns don't kill people, rappers do
From Bristol Zoo to B&Q
I wanna rap, i wanna rhyme
Heard it in a song, now i'm into gun crime
You gotta have a shooter to be in the rap game
Like michael lyin' about the crap
Guns don't kill people, it's just rap

Guns don't kill people, rappers do
Summon the police
Woop Woop Woop
Guns don't kill people, rappers do
Summon the police
Woop Woop Woop

[Fabian]

Well Latifah had Living Single so she always had crossover appeal and Will's the same way with Fresh Prince of Bell-Air

[west3man]

Well Latifah had Living Single so she always had crossover appeal and Will's the same way with Fresh Prince of Bell-Air
Their celebrity began waaay before either of those shows existed.

[Fabian]

Their celebrity began waaay before either of those shows existed.
But they were the first rap artist to attempt to crossover which was way before all these new guys are trying to be actors. They've had time to work on their acting

[west3man]

But they were the first rap artist to attempt to crossover which was way before all these new guys are trying to be actors. They've had time to work on their acting
Maybe they were the first, but I don't see what that has to do with the whole sell-out thing. Maybe you were making a different point, though.

EDIT: Nah. They weren't there were rappers in tv and film well before Will or Latifah had tv shows.

[Fabian]

EDIT: Nah. They weren't there were rappers in tv and film well before Will or Latifah had tv shows.
As mainstream as them? They had Mtv raps and thats about it

[west3man]

As mainstream as them? They had Mtv raps and thats about it
Ice-T was in tv and film before either of them.

New Jack City and other films showcased a number of hip-hop stars and up-and-coming stars.

But, again, I'm not sure what point you're supporting, so I dunno where to go from here.

EDIT: I dunno how mainstream some of that stuff was, but as far as I know, they WERE successful... and certainly weren't called sell-outs.

[Smarty Jones]

"But (Will Smith and Queen Latifah) were the first rap artist to attempt to crossover which was way before all these new guys are trying to be actors. They've had time to work on their acting."

I would not call Queen Latifah a crossover act, because I doubt most mainstream (especially white) people even knew she was a rapper. The typical unknowledgable person of rap music seems to think she was always an actress.

As a rap artist, Queen Latifah did have street credibility. I would not say her music was as thoughtful as a KRS-One, but she did have his style of vibe in the late 1980s and early 1990s.

I also don't think Will Smith gets enough credit for being talented. After all, this is a man who as a teen-ager turned down a scholarship at M.I.T. because he saw a more lucrative career going down his current path.

Personally, I think you're applying the non-black person's definition of what a sellout is in the black pop culture community. Will Smith is not considered a sellout because he never changed his style of music, nor tried patently to go after a mainstream audience; a sellout is someone who changes his style of music specifically to get that attention (see Hammer in 1990 and 1991). I've certainly never heard anyone call Queen Latifah a sellout.

[Deathstroke]

I can't recall ever hearing stories about Bono doing a drive by on Michael Stipe's house.


Now there's a visual.

[Donald M.]

Will was never all that respected in the hip hop community. He caught much hell for his style of storytellin' rap. You can't sell out if you never bought in.



Yeah, "The Fresh Prince" had about as much street cred as The Fat Boys, M.C. Hammer or Vanilla Ice.

If he'd ever at least attempted the "tough guy from the mean streets" pose like ol' Rob Van Winkle did, you'd maybe have a point. Maybe.

[west3man]

Yeah, "The Fresh Prince" had about as much street cred as The Fat Boys, M.C. Hammer or Vanilla Ice.

If he'd ever at least attempted the "tough guy from the mean streets" pose like ol' Rob Van Winkle did, you'd maybe have a point. Maybe.
I'm assuming you're talking to Fabian.


Will's tried the tough-guy thing ... a lil... much later in his career. Some of it worked. Some of it didn't. By saying he didn't have street cred, I don't mean to say he didn't deserve a place in hiPstory. I was fine with his style o' rappin'... at the time. I've even enjoyed some of the stuff he's done since then.

To ME, hip-hop isn't bound by how much or how little violence or profanity is glorified in one's lyrics. Unfortunately, I'm not sure that's the majority opinion.

[Valmore]

Yeah, "The Fresh Prince" had about as much street cred as The Fat Boys, M.C. Hammer or Vanilla Ice.

If he'd ever at least attempted the "tough guy from the mean streets" pose like ol' Rob Van Winkle did, you'd maybe have a point. Maybe.

What are you talking about? Will Smith was boasting he could beat Mike Tyson! I mean, that's a million times tougher than any of these ghetto banging' idiots who just carry guns around.

[Donald M.]

I'm assuming you're talking to Fabian.


Yeah, of course. Maybe I should've been a little more clear on that.

[Donald M.]

To ME, hip-hop isn't bound by how much or how little violence or profanity is glorified in one's lyrics. Unfortunately, I'm not sure that's the majority opinion.

I agree, it's the quality of the music that matters, not necessarily the content of its lyrics. I liked Will's stuff a lot back in his "Fresh Prince" "He's the DJ, I'm the Rapper" days, and I also dug N.W.A. and Public Enemy. I can't say I care much for his latter music career though, where some of his highest profile songs have been advertisements for his own crappy movies.

[Typo Lad]

Shouldn't this be onthe Music Board..

That said, the bit about Will Smith's roots now has the song for his damn "fan hotline" running through my head.

Yo, I'm DJ Jazzy Jeff.
Yeah and this is the Prince.
Stop whatever you're doing,
And listen to this

The horror, the horror.

[west3man]

What are you talking about? Will Smith was boasting he could beat Mike Tyson! I mean, that's a million times tougher than any of these ghetto banging' idiots who just carry guns around.
*hopes this was a "tongue-in-cheek" kinda thing*

[Valmore]

*hopes this was a "tongue-in-cheek" kinda thing*

Considering that the whole song "I Think I Can Beat Mike Tyson" was tongue and cheek...

However, I don't think carrying a gun makes you tough, either.

[eJm]

Rapping hasn't changed since 1997.


Nuff Said.

[Donald M.]

Rapping hasn't changed since 1997.


Nuff Said.

Hell, you could go a little further and say it hasn't changed much since 1990.

[eJm]

Hell, you could go a little further and say it hasn't changed much since 1990.
Agreed.

What happened to the 2Pac days?

[west3man]

Agreed.

What happened to the 2Pac days?
Not a lot besides his death, but I assume you were speaking of what he occasionally represented.

They are now what they were then - intermittent. Tupac was sometimes profound, but he participated in his share of assholery. People seem to associate the best of hip-hop with him and Biggie when they also contributed to the worst of it.

Maybe "martyr" is a more palatable label than "person who talked shit and got shot."

[Donald M.]

Agreed.

What happened to the 2Pac days?

Eh. I know a lot of people liked 2Pac and I respect that, but in my eyes all he did was take stuff earlier, better hard-core "gangsta" rappers had already done and apply a sort of half-baked philosophy to it.

[eJm]

Not a lot besides his death, but I assume you were speaking of what he occasionally represented.

Exactly. I didn't like his music at first, but after hearing some of his tracks, I've sorta turned.

Don't like the way he's being milked, though.

[DarlingNikki]

i can't speak on what is up with rappers, considering that these are the actions of a few and it would be unfair to allow those actions to speak for the behavior of an entire hip-hop community.

as for what has occurred with lil kim, she is just a girl who thought it was aiight to lie under oath. nothing more, nothing less.

in response to the statement that hip-hop hasn't changed much since 1990, i beg to differ. while groups like nwa and other "gangsta" rappers were in existence at that time, rap by and large was dominated by those within the native tongue like tribe called quest, de la soul, the jungle brothas, and others whose lyrics were of a more positive, introspective and empowering nature.

i think rap has been stagnant since biggie died and jay-z took over as the most popular rap artist. the subject matter around that time was already shifting to when it became popular to talk more about the material aspect of living in america and the violence that sometimes came up in pursuit of those materials.

as a hip-hop fan, i've watched the evolution into the current state, where the more positive and thought-provoking rappers are now considered "fringe" artists while the ones lauding violence and materialism are in forefront, and it pisses me off. however, considering the fact that many of today's popular rap artists started off as neighborhood criminals, it's not surprising to see.

these are the same cats who before they made it big, were selling drugs and committing crimes with the sole purpose of one day becoming "legit" and starting their own record labels where they could put all of their boys on. they saved enough money and got their companies together. they talk about what they experience along with what they think their audience wants to hear, namely "i was once a thug but now i'm legit and making alot of money and living the dream lifestyle."

however, while many within their audience are poor folk who dream of living as "large" as those cats are living, a large portion of their audience is comprised of middle-class white kids who for some reason seem to think their lifestyle is somehow fake and the only thing that's "real" is a life comprised of struggle via life and death situations.

can you fault those rappers who choose to pimp that kind of lifestyle for doing so, when they got in the game for the money and the recording industry overall has always been a reflection of how material pursuit supercedes artistic expression if that expression does not mean instant profit?

ultimately, i think these particular rappers are just a reflection of society as a whole. their actions just perpetuate what's already out there. they worship the material just like those outside of hip-hop do. these particular rappers are ruthless businessmen just as those outside of hip-hop are. they're just as unethical and uncaring of how their product affects those who buy into it, just as businesses execs outside of hip-hop are. therefore, if one is gonna condemn rappers overall, start questioning the values of the society that created what they're only reflecting.

[JeffreyWKramer]

I've got a sort of atypical view of rap. I'm a forty-year-old white guy from Iowa who has paid attention to rap from the beginning, who really liked where it was going for awhile, and who really finds it tedious now.

When rap started, way back with the Sugar Hill Gang and folks like that, it was new and different - street-beats heavy on rhythm, stealing some riffs from Lou Reed and other talk-singers, talking about things primarily from the POV of urban blacks. Other artists and people who paid attention to music trends noticed right off, and some of the better post-punk/new wave artists (Blondie, and the Talking Heads, to a lesser extent) incorporated some bits here and there. In an odd case of feedback, Lou Reed became a bit more rap-styled for a time. Rap wasn't big, but it was lively and interesting and seemed to have a lot of potential. Then two things happened.

First, two trends started within rap: politics/protest and gangsta. The first, as epitomized by folks like Public Enemy and NWA, was stuff I really liked quite a bit, because it was about something more important than drugs and ho's and getting laid and partying. I consider Public Enemy to be perhaps the pinnacle of what rap has achieved to date. Unfortunately, being "about something" seems to have translated to "limited long-term success", just as tends to happen in other music. People like U2 when they do snappy pop tunes but tend to ignore the politics. Most people prefer the pop artists of each era to the protest singers. The pop guys make more money. Which leads to gangsta rap.

The early gangsta rappers also talked about something. They talked about gang life and poverty and the POV of the street-level hood. In this regard, gangsta was sort of an evolution of the earliest rap - music from the street perspective, but simply a different set of folk on different streets. The early stuff was quite good, and quite experimental. Ice-T and some of the artists of that era got lots of attention from a lot of folk, including white suburban kids who were suddenly presented with this mesmerizing view of things so different from their own experience. The gangsta artists became wildly successful, selling hotcakes and frightening the hell out of a lot of white folk in the government and the mainstream entertainment industry. This success coincided with the second thing that happened - crossover and commercialism.

Blondie and some other folk had mixed a bit of rap into their music years earlier, but the first real crossover success came from a band of white guys who started rapping - the Beastie Boys - and an old-school rap duo doing a cover tune. The Beasties "Fight For Your Right (to Party)" and Run-DMC's "Walk This Way" hit the charts at about the same time, and in a big way. Both were helped by videos which immediately had high rotation on MTV, and "Walk This Way" was helped out by the active involvement of Aerosmith. Suddenly, rap was big chart business, and as always happens, the larger business and entertainment communities noticed. In short order, rap started getting pushed in increasingly mainstream forms. Some folk saw this as the chance to make it really huge (paging Will Smith...).

The gangsta movement was hitting its stride alongside or just after the first wave of hip-hop crossover, and in short order, the current changed from the more mainstream stuff to gangsta - again, in large part due to the huge audience of young, suburban white males who had seen metal go from heavy to prancing hair bands and were looking for something more substantial and edgy. Suddenly, gangsta was where the money was. And, predictably, the number of gangsta artists mushroomed practicaly overnight. Some were legit street hoods gone musical. Then there were the laughable mainstream-crossover rappers like Vanilla Ice. It all made boatloads of money, and it pushed lighter, more positive, more introspective rap and hip-hop artists mostly off to the side. Some of the artists rode that wave into non-musical careers, others became producers, lots of folk because incredilby wealthy.

That's where rap has more or less stayed stuck since around 1990, at least from my POV. Gangsta rap and derivations thereof have become the predominant - nearly the default - form. Some real talents have emerged (and, as in the case of Tupac, often had sadly abbreviated careers), but rap as a style has really not evolved much at all since then. It's sort of like where rock was in the early/mid-1970s, until punk shook things up - i.e., bloated with lots of big-name superstars and not a lot of real creativity or energy.

The main difference is, rappers seem to live more dangerous lives than did the likes of REO Speedwagon and Heart.

Why is that? Pretty simple. Most of the successful rappers, particularly the gangsta and gangsta-influenced ones, have been urban blacks from lower SES backgrounds. Just as so many of the early film stars, unprepared for success, crashed and burned in spectacles of excess and debauchery, the rappers simply weren't prepared to handle so much money and fame coming upon them so quickly. Too much money and power without enough discipline and thought can be a bad combination. Second, while there has been no lack of posers among the rap stars, lots of these folk really have been from the streets and from backgrounds of real violence. Thus, it's not surprising some of them carry the hoodlumism with them into the mansions and fleets of cars. Battles of rep and cred turn into real battles, codes of silence are respected and enforced, and people kill and get killed. Ironically, some of the rap performers who - by really coming from the streets they rap about - bring most of the energy to the form also bring most of the destruction.

Anyhow, that's my POV of rap overall, and of what is "up" with some of the rappers who keep crashing and burning in such a public way. I find most rap I've heard for the past decade pretty damn tedious. There's a sameness to it, and some of that sameness is all too often bragging and arrogance, misogyny and mean-spiritedness. Really quite a shame, IMHO. There was some truly great stuff there for awhile. On the positive side, rap influence has filtered through most of popular music, instilling new energy, sparking some new things. Some of the new things haven't been so good. The early rap-metal hybrids (Body Count, some Anthrax) were pretty cool. Today's nu-metal, on the other hand, mostly bites.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Heh. It looks like Nikki was writing a big essay at the same time I was doing mine. It's cool to see the areas of overlap on our POVs, too, as well as the areas of divergence.

[west3man]

Heh. It looks like Nikki was writing a big essay at the same time I was doing mine. It's cool to see the areas of overlap on our POVs, too, as well as the areas of divergence.
That's one of the things I like about you. 1) You say stuff like that. 2) You MEAN it. 3) You don't give a damn what "someone like you" OUGHT to think, like, or do. You LIVE outside of the box.

I appreciate these things about you whether or not they result in us agreeing with each other.

I know this isn't the eulogy thread, but I wanted say that here and now.

[JeffreyWKramer]

That's one of the things I like about you. 1) You say stuff like that. 2) You MEAN it. 3) You don't give a damn what "someone like you" OUGHT to think, like, or do. You LIVE outside of the box.

I appreciate these things about you whether or not they result in us agreeing with each other.

I know this isn't the eulogy thread, but I wanted say that here and now.


Thank you, West. Very, very much. That's one of the nicest things I've ever had written about me, and I very much appreciate it. That same sort of tendency - to strongly state your POV, to be who you are even if it sometimes results in disagreements with others - is one of the things I like most about you and many of my other favorite CBR folk. Morts is another great example. He openly disagrees with friends some times. Hell, he's a Jew who sometimes criticizes Israel, and I've seen first-hand (among Jewish friends) the sort of ugliness that can erupt into - yet he does so, speaking his mind rather than how some might expect or think he "ought to" be.

Thanks again.

[Typo Lad]

Hi, did I come too late for the mutual admiration party?

Back on topic: rap.

My first job was at a synagogue, one of the largest in the US. The Rabbi's secratary was this sweet little grandma. Very cool. One day I had a Blues Traveller CD in and she asked me about them. In the end, she decided it wasn't her style.

"What is your style?"

"Oh, I like rap."

"..."

"Oh, not the gangsta rap. I hate that. The good stuff. And not that "ice, ice baby" garbage either. The stuff that makes you think."

Truely, a moment of enlightnement.

[DarlingNikki]

Heh. It looks like Nikki was writing a big essay at the same time I was doing mine. It's cool to see the areas of overlap on our POVs, too, as well as the areas of divergence.

i was just thinking the same thing. are we sharing the same brain???

[Typo Lad]

i was just thinking the same thing. are we sharing the same brain???

Could be. Jeff's into sharing.

[DarlingNikki]

Could be. Jeff's into sharing.

i've been smiling at the wit behind your posts all week long.

[Alex]

Hell, you could go a little further and say it hasn't changed much since 1990.
Oh its changed.
In 1990 it was all about the gangsta rap, then it turned into horrible "Look how much money i have" rap.
And that was the darkest moment in rap.

[Typo Lad]

Oh its changed.
In 1990 it was all about the gangsta rap, then it turned into horrible "Look how much money i have" rap.
And that was the darkest moment in rap.

No, the worst has been the ones where they mix it.

To quote Boondocks:

"I don't get it. These rappers in the videos... they have all this money they're just thowing around...girls shaking thier fannies at them...big cars, bigger houses...but all they're doing is scowling."

Rough quote.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Oh its changed.
In 1990 it was all about the gangsta rap, then it turned into horrible "Look how much money i have" rap.
And that was the darkest moment in rap.

Well, the truth is more that rap really didn't change so much as something got added to the gangsta riff. Namely, it went to "I'm a gangsta badass" to "I'm a gangsta badass, and look how much money, drugs and hos I have".

But I agree with your conclusion, even if I quibble a bit with how you got there.

[Typo Lad]

i've been smiling at the wit behind your posts all week long.

Blushes

Awww.

I need to put half the effort into my writing that I've been putting into my posts.

[Tom]

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=762&e=1&u=/ap/20050318/ap_en_mu/lil__kim_shootout

It looks like Lil' Kim will be going to prison for perjury for lying about what she did or didn't see outside a nightclub where a shooting took place. The article indicates that it has something to do with a rival rap group.

Why does this kind of shit exist with rappers? Tupac v. Biggie East Coast v. West Coast. Lil' Kim v. some group I never heard of.

The closest to this you get in country music is the Dixie Chicks calling Toby Keith a redneck and him calling them pinkos.

I can't recall ever hearing stories about Bono doing a drive by on Michael Stipe's house.

WTF????I don't really think there's much to talk about here. When popular music glorified drug use, there was a host of drug-related deaths among popular performers. Now that there is at least a portion of popular music glorifying violence and flaunting the law, you're seeing a lot of popular performers engaging in same.

[eJm]

Oh its changed.
In 1990 it was all about the gangsta rap, then it turned into horrible "Look how much money i have" rap.
And that was the darkest moment in rap.
Leading to what we have now.

The 'I've got money, a good house, cool car and I'm also a pimp.' era.

[JeffreyWKramer]

i was just thinking the same thing. are we sharing the same brain???

Now, *that* would be a new kink.

Sounds good here! :)

[Typo Lad]

Well, the truth is more that rap really didn't change so much as something got added to the gangsta riff. Namely, it went to "I'm a gangsta badass" to "I'm a gangsta badass, and look how much money, drugs and hos I have".

But I agree with your conclusion, even if I quibble a bit with how you got there.

Okay, now you're sharing MY brain.

It's a three-way!

You know what I loath?

The raps about the rappers.

Not the kind where they tell a story, but where they feel the name to mention thier own names over and over. I cantch Jay-Z doing that a LOT.

[Alex]

Well, the truth is more that rap really didn't change so much as something got added to the gangsta riff. Namely, it went to "I'm a gangsta badass" to "I'm a gangsta badass, and look how much money, drugs and hos I have".

But I agree with your conclusion, even if I quibble a bit with how you got there.
There was a big difference though, it seems small, but the different between
"Im poor and had to sell drugs and shoot people"
and
"Im so rich and i have a big mansion, but ill bust a cap yo"
Is just huge.
It's like....if Bill Gates said he was going to kill me in a drive by.

[DarlingNikki]

Okay, now you're sharing MY brain.

It's a three-way!

You know what I loath?

The raps about the rappers.

Not the kind where they tell a story, but where they feel the name to mention thier own names over and over. I cantch Jay-Z doing that a LOT.

that's cuz he doesn't have much to talk about. where is the imagery??? that's why i really love nas.

[Alex]

You know what i could do without in rap?
Songs that "feature " twelve people.
so that the actual artist who's cd i bought gets one verse, and then they got 4 other guys doing the rest of the song.
Bonus points when the extra guy is better then the guy who put out the cd.

[Typo Lad]

I haven't listened to any music not in my Tunes library in so long, I'm not sure I've even heard a song by Nas.

Sad, aren't I?

[eJm]

I haven't listened to any music not in my Tunes library in so long, I'm not sure I've even heard a song by Nas.

Sad, aren't I?
You aren't alone. I don't think I have either.

Either that or I just don't remember one.

[JeffreyWKramer]

You know what I loath?

The raps about the rappers.

Not the kind where they tell a story, but where they feel the name to mention thier own names over and over. I cantch Jay-Z doing that a LOT.


Unfortunately, lots of rappers don't really have anything new or interesting to say about their experiences - unlike the old days - so now they just talk about themselves. Usually in an arrogant manner. This is one of the few areas in which I have a bit of respect for Eminem, because at least he sees the ridiculousness in that (even while doing it), and so tosses in some self-depreciating humor. I'm still not very fond of his stuff, but at least his songs tend to come off as a bit more than listening in on some guy jerking off while telling himself how cool he is.

[DarlingNikki]

I haven't listened to any music not in my Tunes library in so long, I'm not sure I've even heard a song by Nas.

Sad, aren't I?

heck no. i'm more saddened by the fact that grandma had to school you on hip-hop

[Typo Lad]

You know what i could do without in rap?
Songs that "feature " twelve people.
so that the actual artist who's cd i bought gets one verse, and then they got 4 other guys doing the rest of the song.
Bonus points when the extra guy is better then the guy who put out the cd.

Forget Rap, that's a memme that's infected everywhere in the music industry.

If I hear that Moby song (fet Gwen Stefanie) once, I heard it a thousand times.

And I LIKE Stefanie.

[DarlingNikki]

... some guy jerking off while telling himself how cool he is.

imagining jay-z doing this is making me ill. and i usually like that kind of thing, too. :(

[Alex]

Forget Rap, that's a memme that's infected everywhere in the music industry.

If I hear that Moby song (fet Gwen Stefanie) once, I heard it a thousand times.

And I LIKE Stefanie.
I don't, and i downright hate Moby. She wasn't even good when she was in a lameo "Ska" band. Theres something worse then rap, crappy pop punk with horns, great idea!
...
Wow, this is like the music board on the comm board, if this goes on, you will all see how much i hate music!

[eJm]

You know what i could do without in rap?
Songs that "feature " twelve people.
so that the actual artist who's cd i bought gets one verse, and then they got 4 other guys doing the rest of the song.
Bonus points when the extra guy is better then the guy who put out the cd.
I persume you haven't heard Ja Rule's 'New York' song yet?


For a valid reason too...........cause it sucks.

[JeffreyWKramer]

It's like....if Bill Gates said he was going to kill me in a drive by.


I would love to see Rappin Bill G do that as a video.

[Alex]

I would love to see Rappin Bill G do that as a video.
So would i, but only because it would be so ridiculas.

[Typo Lad]

Unfortunately, lots of rappers don't really have anything new or interesting to say about their experiences - unlike the old days - so now they just talk about themselves.

Yeah, and it seems to always be 'I'm rich but I'm keeping it REAL."

Just once, I'd like to hear a rich rapper rapping about his friends mooching off'a him or something.

Or has that been done?

Usually in an arrogant manner. This is one of the few areas in which I have a bit of respect for Eminem, because at least he sees the ridiculousness in that (even while doing it), and so tosses in some self-depreciating humor. I'm still not very fond of his stuff, but at least his songs tend to come off as a bit more than listening in on some guy jerking off while telling himself how cool he is.

Yeah, it's hate-filled bile, but at least it's ORIGINAL.

heck no. i'm more saddened by the fact that grandma had to school you on hip-hop

Hey, I DID know who Cypress Hill was. I was just shocked that this little old Jewish lady listened to rap. You know what most Jews listen to?

Billy Joel.

Don't get me wrong, I like Billy Joel, but he's just a planet and a half away from rap.

[JeffreyWKramer]

imagining jay-z doing this is making me ill. and i usually like that kind of thing, too. :(
LOL! Sorry for that imagery, then.

Really, though, that's how I respond to a lot of current rap.

[DarlingNikki]

LOL! Sorry for that imagery, then.

Really, though, that's how I respond to a lot of current rap.

by jerking off and saying how cool you are? now THAT image isn't bad AT ALL.

[Alex]

LOL! Sorry for that imagery, then.

Really, though, that's how I respond to a lot of current rap.
Seriosly though, its not just rap.
Most current pop music, from whatever genre, consists largely of musicians masturbating over themselves.
And its all Spin's fault.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Billy Joel.

Don't get me wrong, I like Billy Joel, but he's just a planet and a half away from rap.


Does anyone remember "We Didn't Start This Fire" or whatever that crappy song/video was back when, which looked like Billy Joel's attempt to incorporate a bit of rap into his schmaltz?

I guess I should now apologize to those in whom I've no doubt reawakened horrible memories by mentioning that steaming piece of crap.

[Typo Lad]

I don't, and i downright hate Moby. She wasn't even good when she was in a lameo "Ska" band. Theres something worse then rap, crappy pop punk with horns, great idea!

So mentioning my love for "Save Ferris" would be bad, eh?

I was just experimenting, I swear.

Seriously though, my music taste is probably pretty far from yours. I freely admit to liking stuff most people hate.

...
Wow, this is like the music board on the comm board, if this goes on, you will all see how much i hate music!

That's okay. Music told me she hates you too.

[eJm]

Seriosly though, its not just rap.
Most current pop music, from whatever genre, consists largely of musicians masturbating over themselves.
And its all Spin's fault.
You know, I didn't realise what you were on about, but now I do.

Jeez.

[JeffreyWKramer]

by jerking off and saying how cool you are? now THAT image isn't bad AT ALL.

Wanna watch on webcam?

I kid. I don't think I can rap any better than I can sing, and anyone who has heard it will assure you that my singing is horrific.

[Alex]

That's okay. Music told me she hates you too.
Music is a filthy whore who allows her to be gangraped by genres at the direction of the record industry.
Currently, she is taking it in all holes from a group of bastards i call "Faux indie hipster bullshit rock"

[JeffreyWKramer]

Seriosly though, its not just rap.
Most current pop music, from whatever genre, consists largely of musicians masturbating over themselves.

True. Last time I saw some country videos, most of them were "aren't I cool?" self-love-fests. Bad enough when country artists were trying to be the Eagles, but now they're riffing off Jay-Z and Usher. Ugh.

And its all Spin's fault.

The magazine? How so? I've ignored that piece of crap for a decade or so now.

[Typo Lad]

Does anyone remember "We Didn't Start This Fire" or whatever that crappy song/video was back when, which looked like Billy Joel's attempt to incorporate a bit of rap into his schmaltz?

True story:

Remember "Only The Good Die Young"? Billy Joel had originally intended that to be a regge song. Drummer Liberty Deveto looked at him and said 'Regge? Billy, the closest you've ever been to Jamaca is Queens."

Bless you, Mr. Devito.

I guess I should now apologize to those in whom I've no doubt reawakened horrible memories by mentioning that steaming piece of crap.

The best part was the people singing it who didn't know what 3/4ths of it meant.

That said, if you want REALLY bad Billy Joel, check out "The Nylon Curtain". Two good songs and the rest are jsut like "what was he ON?"

The worst is his first., Cold Spring Harbor, but that's cause of an equpment malfunction that made him sound like Alvin Seville hitting puberty.

[eJm]

Music is a filthy whore who allows her to be gangraped by genres at the direction of the record industry.
Currently, she is taking it in all holes from a group of bastards i call "Faux indie hipster bullshit rock"
Thats the best (and most detailed) description about music I've heard.

You forgot, though, being raped by MTV as well.

[Typo Lad]

True. Last time I saw some country videos, most of them were "aren't I cool?" self-love-fests. Bad enough when country artists were trying to be the Eagles, but now they're riffing off Jay-Z and Usher. Ugh.

It's all Shania's fault for wearing them darn halter-tops!

[Alex]

Thats the best (and most detailed) description about music I've heard.

You forgot, though, being raped by MTV as well.
MTV does what the labels tell them.
They don't have too, of course, but its how they stay in bussiness.

[Typo Lad]

Music is a filthy whore who allows her to be gangraped by genres at the direction of the record industry.
Currently, she is taking it in all holes from a group of bastards i call "Faux indie hipster bullshit rock"

Madtv had a GREAT spoof of Jewel's single "Intuition" called "Prostitution". I don't recall the entire song, but the choros was:

"The music business...is prostitution..."

[eJm]

MTV does what the labels tell them.
They don't have too, of course, but its how they stay in bussiness.
and here's me pointing the blame at them.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Remember "Only The Good Die Young"? Billy Joel had originally intended that to be a regge song. Drummer Liberty Deveto looked at him and said 'Regge? Billy, the closest you've ever been to Jamaca is Queens."

Bless you, Mr. Devito.

Blessings to Devito for sure. OMG. "Only the Good..." is one of the few Billy Joel songs I can tolerate. Imagining it as reggae... well, that's just perverse.

And not the good kind of perverse, either. Definitely not pervilicious. We're talking stuff like necroporn and... I dunno... Jenna Jamison and Janet Reno doing a movie together. Ugh.

That said, if you want REALLY bad Billy Joel, check out "The Nylon Curtain". Two good songs and the rest are jsut like "what was he ON?"

That was the one with "Pressure" and "Allentown" and "Goodnight, Saigon", right? The one where he decided he tried to channel Bruce Springsteen rather than Wayne Newton?

[Alex]

Madtv had a GREAT spoof of Jewel's single "Intuition" called "Prostitution". I don't recall the entire song, but the choros was:

"The music business...is prostitution..."
I liked her better when she was a poor, generic girl with a guitar, who lived in her car.

[Typo Lad]

Blessings to Devito for sure. OMG. "Only the Good..." is one of the few Billy Joel songs I can tolerate. Imagining it as reggae... well, that's just perverse.

The best part is I've heard him do it! Just the first bit. it's so gawd-aweful.

And not the good kind of perverse, either. Definitely not pervilicious. We're talking stuff like necroporn and... I dunno... Jenna Jamison and Janet Reno doing a movie together. Ugh.

Ewwwwwwww.

Jenna Jameson?

Nasty.

That was the one with "Pressure" and "Allentown" and "Goodnight, Saigon", right? The one where he decided he tried to channel Bruce Springsteen rather than Wayne Newton?

YES! Exactly!

He has a song about invading...crap, I think it was Sweden. WTF?

[Alex]

Bye the way, i got 5 bucks, considering the recent usurge in artists releasing covers as singles, that Sister Christian will be covered soon, and 13 year olds will be singing it.
Which will be a positive, because the though to that makes me laugh.

[Typo Lad]

I liked her better when she was a poor, generic girl with a guitar, who lived in her car.

That was basicallyt he point of the whole video. Showing how they "whored her up" for her second album.

I read a GREAT interview with Joan Osborn about how her company was trying to can her because she refused to do an album of tourch songs. She'd actually recorded two entire almbums which weren't "what they were looking for" so they didn't count them twords her four-record deal.

Of course, I recall seeing a crappy video of hers down the line, which makes me think she caved.

She's great singing backup for John Popper.

[Alex]

That was basicallyt he point of the whole video. Showing how they "whored her up" for her second album.

Does it make a difference if you make a joke of something you did.
...Go back to your shitty poetry jewel.
And show them titties!

[Typo Lad]

Does it make a difference if you make a joke of something you did.

Oh no, she didn't do it. They were mocking her (http://www.di-links.com/modules.php?name=Sections&op=viewarticle&artid=62)

...Go back to your shitty poetry jewel.
And show them titties!

So long as she keeps her bad teeth to herself.

[Alex]

Oh no, she didn't do it. They were mocking her (http://www.di-links.com/modules.php?name=Sections&op=viewarticle&artid=62)



Oh, but the video SHE did was mocking herself, thats what i ment.

[Alex]

And my opinion is this.
If you suck, and you say you suck, that doesn't make you not suck.
It just makes your suck more obvious and indefensible.

[Typo Lad]

Oh, but the video SHE did was mocking herself, thats what i ment.

Was it? i thought it was her saying "I'm all grown up and sexy now! Look at meeeeee."

[Alex]

Was it? i thought it was her saying "I'm all grown up and sexy now! Look at meeeeee."
Did you see the video? It was clearly in a joking way.
But what ruined it, was that the song, and every other song, was so incredibly poppy and produced, that it soiled any humor it may have had.

[DarlingNikki]

DAMNIT

i LOVED nylon curtain! i've got the whole thing downloaded on my computer RIGHT NOW.

and billy joel is one of my favorite pianists, so stop hating. :(

[Alex]

DAMNIT

i LOVED nylon curtain! i've got the whole thing downloaded on my computer RIGHT NOW.

and billy joel is one of my favorite pianists, so stop hating. :(
I love Tori Amos...
...
She's better.

[Typo Lad]

DAMNIT

i LOVED nylon curtain! i've got the whole thing downloaded on my computer RIGHT NOW.

and billy joel is one of my favorite pianists, so stop hating. :(

I DO like Billy Joel, really I do... but you ahve to admit that Nylon is VERY weak compared to the rest of his albums.

"Where's the orchasta" is a damn lulaby.

[DarlingNikki]

I DO like Billy Joel, really I do... but you ahve to admit that Nylon is VERY weak compared to the rest of his albums.

"Where's the orchasta" is a damn lulaby.

i have to agree, though. i liked him better when he was an angry young man...

[Typo Lad]

I love Tori Amos...
...
She's better.

Okay, here's the thing about Tori Amos...

Lovely voice. Amazing song writer.

Clearly has been on crack since "Boys for Pele".

Listen to "Little Earthquakes" (currently playing on my work CD. Poingant. Wonderful symbolism, clear metaphors used. Just a A++ record.

"Under the Pink" is much the same, except for the utterly out there "Space dog", but it's still memorable because of her voice.

"Boys for Pele" is just... gibberish. Mindless gibbersh set to music. It SOUNDS great, but what does it MEAN?

"Choirgirl Hotel" is a bit more like "Under the Pink", but songs like "Rasberry Swirl" have you wondering if she's on some sort of controlled suibstance and took an extra high dose.

"Top Venus and Back" is completely forgetable. Not a single song sticks out in my mind and I listened to the thing yesterday. Compelte waste of money. The album seems to be recorded in such a fashion that the music overwhelms her voice and you cna't even hear what she's saying.

"Strange Little Girls" is all covers... but features a '97 Bonnie and Clyde so amazingly done, I actually think I peed myself. And I HATE Eminem.

I have to reserve judgment on "Scarlet's Walk," "Tales of a Librarian," and "The Beekeeper" as I'd given up on her by then.

[Typo Lad]

i have to agree, though. i liked him better when he was an angry young man...

That song got me through puberty alive.

[SteelTownr]

Their celebrity began waaay before either of those shows existed.

I wouldn't say that Will Smith's began waaay before.

It seems to me that "Parents Just Don't Understand" and "Fresh Prince of Belair" were out near the same time.

Mark B.

[Alex]

Okay, here's the thing about Tori Amos...

Lovely voice. Amazing song writer.

Clearly has been on crack since "Boys for Pele".

Listen to "Little Earthquakes" (currently playing on my work CD. Poingant. Wonderful symbolism, clear metaphors used. Just a A++ record.

"Under the Pink" is much the same, except for the utterly out there "Space dog", but it's still memorable because of her voice.

"Boys for Pele" is just... gibberish. Mindless gibbersh set to music. It SOUNDS great, but what does it MEAN?

"Choirgirl Hotel" is a bit more like "Under the Pink", but songs like "Rasberry Swirl" have you wondering if she's on some sort of controlled suibstance and took an extra high dose.

"Top Venus and Back" is completely forgetable. Not a single song sticks out in my mind and I listened to the thing yesterday. Compelte waste of money. The album seems to be recorded in such a fashion that the music overwhelms her voice and you cna't even hear what she's saying.

"Strange Little Girls" is all covers... but features a '97 Bonnie and Clyde so amazingly done, I actually think I peed myself. And I HATE Eminem.

I have to reserve judgment on "Scarlet's Walk," "Tales of a Librarian," and "The Beekeeper" as I'd given up on her by then.

Well, i agree with everything but one thing.
Venus and back was worthless, yes totaly agree (Though i like raspberry swirl, its fun) BUT it came with a live album which was incredible.
Tales of a librarian is a best of, so don't bother, but if you like the more piano oriented, less weird lyrics Tori, i cannot recomened Scareltt's Walk enough. It's damn near all her and piano, and there isn't a song on it as musicaly impressive as say...the piano solo bit on Cornflake Girl, its a really, really good album.
I havent listened to Beekeeper more then once, so i don't have a judgement, its more like Scarletts walk though.
But seriously, if you liked Little Earthquakes, you will like Scarletts Walk.
In fact, if you buy it, and don't like it, i will send you a check for the price of the cd.

[Typo Lad]

Well, i agree with everything but one thing.

Hey, we're agreeing on a thread that's no about latuff. How weird is THAT?

Venus and back was worthless, yes totaly agree (Though i like raspberry swirl, its fun)

...which was on "Choirgirl", not "Venus".

It's FUN, but it makes no SENSE. Hell, half the songs on "Pele" are fun too, but there's gibberish.

How can you NOT love a song that starts:

"Mohammed my friend,
It's time to tell the world,
We both know it was a girl,
Back in Bethlehem."

What the song means, I've NO idea. It's liker she took a bunch of cool phrases and set them to music. But it's cool.

BUT it came with a live album which was incredible.

Yes. That I MUST agree with. I left it out because I usually don't count live albums. Although I have been told that you can't appreciate Tori Amos until you see her live.

Tales of a librarian is a best of, so don't bother, but if you like the more piano oriented, less weird lyrics Tori, i cannot recomened Scareltt's Walk enough. It's damn near all her and piano, and there isn't a song on it as musicaly impressive as say...the piano solo bit on Cornflake Girl, its a really, really good album.

By comparing it to Cornflake Girl, you have sold me on it.

I havent listened to Beekeeper more then once, so i don't have a judgement, its more like Scarletts walk though.

I'll try SW. I'd I like it, I'll try "beakeeper" too.

But seriously, if you liked Little Earthquakes, you will like Scarletts Walk.
In fact, if you buy it, and don't like it, i will send you a check for the price of the cd.

You buy CDs?

iTunes store man, iTunes store.

[west3man]

I wouldn't say that Will Smith's began waaay before.

It seems to me that "Parents Just Don't Understand" and "Fresh Prince of Belair" were out near the same time.

Mark B.
Will Smith was an existing rap celebrity before the tv show ever aired. That's WHY he got a shot at the show. It's not like he was an actor.

"waaay" may have only been a year or two, so maybe I should've used fewer a's.

[west3man]

I wouldn't say that Will Smith's began waaay before.

It seems to me that "Parents Just Don't Understand" and "Fresh Prince of Belair" were out near the same time.

Mark B.
http://www.rockonthenet.com/artists-s/willsmith_main.htm

It says, "Girls Ain't Nothing But Trouble" was released in 1987 while "The Fresh Prince of Bel Air" debuted in 1990.

I'm comfortable with three a's.

[JeffreyWKramer]

http://www.rockonthenet.com/artists-s/willsmith_main.htm

It says, "Girls Ain't Nothing But Trouble" was released in 1987 while "The Fresh Prince of Bel Air" debuted in 1990.

I'm comfortable with three a's.


Will may not have been completely born of the mainstream media - as you note, he hit the scene as an actual rapper right as rap was really taking off big - but he sure sucked onto that big ol' money tit readily enough. He was - and still is - a smart fellow, and he saw a chance to hit it big in the crossover market. Hell, he might even have seen that rap was gonna take the turn toward the gangsta, such that a move to TV and movies would at least give him a career, while staying in music would likely have resulted in him being forgotten in short order. Either way, though, he willingly enough let himself be turned into more or less a cute, neutered, near-cartoon version of himself - the safe, clean-cut rap guy America (and probably even Raymond) could love - for the sake of TV stardom.

[Anthony]

One thing that I love about CBR is the fact that people have such different experiences and viewpoints about the same thing. Speaking as a black male in his 20s from Brooklyn who grew up on hip-hop, the "Lil' Kim" incident isn't a rapper's issue, it's an issue with a girl (w/ severe issues of inadequacy and low self-esteem) that doesn't quite comprehend perjury is a major felony. That and she doesn't quite get that attending the Jackson school of plastic surgery will make people look at you funny, not admire you.

On the progression of hip-hop/rap and it's stagnation.
I'd say musically it stopped around 97. 1990 was the big boom of "Afrocentrism". In 1993, the pendulum shifted strongly to "gansta". 1996 was an interesting animal as hip-hop divided into camps. The infamous "East vs West" beef reached it's climax. That isn't to say this beef wasn't already around. The East, and NY in particular was a very insular environment when it came to hip-hop. I don't remember many West coasters getting played much. You had some, Cypress Hill, D.O.C., Ice Cube, Souls of Mischief etc. But they had an east coast bent to their production. West Coast cats like Too Short, Ice-T, NWA didn't get nearly as much play. There was also the respect issue at the clubs. Heard a couple stories of west coast guys getting sent away from a club before. That and DJs not playing their cuts at a spot. You even had an occasional beef between the coasts. NWA post-Ice Cube and Tim Dogg, being the one that comes to mind first.

Still, I don't believe this was the cause of the stagnation, so much as the Telecommunications Act of 1996 passing. That opened the door for Clear Channel to start buying up stations and then standardizing the format of radio into what we know it to be currently. I worked for a radio station once and under a 2 hour block the DJ, unless it's a specialty show, only gets to choose 6 songs. Everything else is scripted. That is the standard format for most stations since Clear Channel. Then the middlemen gained more power as well. Think of it as legalized payola. We have tracks we want you to play and you won't get the current big star(s) from our stable until you play it. This type of strongarming took the little stations out of play and allowed Clear Channel to buy them up. Well that and Clear Channel had a ton of money to throw at them. So if you didn't fall for one, the other usually got you anyway. That's why IMO, circa 1997, radio started to sound alike.

On hip-hop braggadocio Jay-Z:
This has got to be the first time ever that I'm defending this man. But on the simplicity of his rhymes, he pretty much dumbs-down his lyrics because that's what sells better. I wish I could prove him wrong in that regard, but the introspective and lyrically superior Jay-Z, that appears on Reasonable Doubt, does not move as many units as the inferior simplistic one. He has moments where he'll flash the skill, but those are too far to sparse to rely on it. T&A sells better in music, just as it does in every other entertainment segment of society.

On Will Smith & Latifah:
Will's never sold out to me. He always remained true to what and who he was. Going all the way back to "Rock the House" and "Girls Ain't Nothin' But Trouble", he was always an intelligent, humorous guy. What pains me about hip-hop is that it'll be a long time before someone similar in tone will be rocked on the airways. He helped add to the diversity at the time. Oh and "Parents just don't understand" came out well before "Fresh Prince of Bel-Air". I think about 2 years give or take a couple months. "Bel-Air" came out after he went through his millions, and bankrupted(not sure about that part) the first time. His current tracks aren't really up to par with his Fresh Prince days. Well they really haven't been up to par since "Summertime", but I digress.

Latifah never sold out either. Not so much as she just left making hip-hop music alone. It's still part of her, but not in the she's making music sense. It's just a part of who she is.

On hip-hop in general:
There are a few acts out there that still remain true to it. De La Soul's newest album, "The Grind Date", to me is probably the best form of pure hip-hop out right now. The aforementioned Mos Def, when he's not busy acting and/or promoting Black Jack Johnson (musical band, not the PBS special on the boxer), can still bring a lot of flavor.

[Slappy san]

The whole shooting had to with Kim's beef with Foxxy Brown.

[Anthony]

The whole shooting had to with Kim's beef with Foxxy Brown.
The shooting yes, but what she was on trial for, not so much.

[Slappy san]

The shooting yes, but what she was on trial for, not so much.

What is your point?

She's on trial for lying about the shooting to a grand jury.

[Anthony]

What is your point?

She's on trial for lying about the shooting to a grand jury.

My point is that the lying part plays a much bigger role in this than the shooting.

[Loren]

Does anyone remember "We Didn't Start This Fire" or whatever that crappy song/video was back when, which looked like Billy Joel's attempt to incorporate a bit of rap into his schmaltz?

My best friend and I sang that together our senior year in high school as part of the chorus' spring show. During the song, my sister stood between us and turned the pages on an easel that showed which years we were singing about.

We picked the song about three days before the first performance, and in all our practices, we only got *all* the lyrics right twice. Both times were onstage.

We also had fire. The first night he had a pump bug spray or somesuch, and used it and a lighter to create a small fire poof. He wasn't happy with the effect, so the second night he used WD-40. MUCH bigger poof. And I've been told that the tape shows that he almost let the firetrail go back into the can.

I guess I should now apologize to those in whom I've no doubt reawakened horrible memories by mentioning that steaming piece of crap.

I like it, but then I something of a fondness for the 'listing song'.

Loren

[Valmore]

I like it, but then I something of a fondness for the 'listing song'.

But "It's the End of the World As We Know It (I Feel Fine)" is sooooooo much better than Billy Joel's. And it's even harder to sing. I think I have about 70% of the lyrics down now. And considering Michael Stipe has probably forgotten at least half the lyrics by now, that may make me the most qualified man in the world to sing the song... sadly, now R.E.M. only plays boring electronic songs that Radiohead rejected first, so I'll never get my chance.

[west3man]

Ahh. I'm just remembering one of the two things I meant to mention in this thread.

1) Today is Latifah's birthday! I think she's 35. Since we were talking about her so much, I thought that might be worth sharing.

Lessee if the yogurt between my ears can put another coherent thought together (I'm not on Benadryl, yet, so it's possible), like remembering what #2 was.

[Brian Cronin]

I wanted to see if it would come down on being about the music or the issue, before I sent it to the Music board.

As it were, it seems to be talking about the music a BIT more, so here it is. :)

-Brian

[Punchy McSplodo]

That's where rap has more or less stayed stuck since around 1990, at least from my POV.


I haven't gotten a chance to read the rest of the thread yet, where you may have elaborated or clarified this statement, but I'm gonna have to disagree here.

At the very least, starting in the mid to late 90's, Southern rap started making real strides into the mainstream--teams like Timbaland/Missy Elliot and Outkast made pretty unique contributions to production, content, delivery, and overall style, and became popular to boot.

Like I heard Ice-T once say, the existence of Eminem himself is a kind of innovation, because, talent aside, he represents a step foward in making personal and confessional rap writing that doesn't come from a black urban perspective mainstream. Though he isn't nearly as popular, and underrated (especially on Deliverance, which contains some of Timbaland's best production work in awhile), Bubba Sparxx, a rural Southerner, is somebody else who wouldn't be where he is if he tried to emerge 15 years ago.

I mean, yeah, the gangsta/criminal corner of hip hop still has an influence on a lot of what's mainstream, but a lot of that's on the surface. Not to say I like a lot of what's coming out now (Lil Jon), but the emphasis in the lyrics is a lot different than what people like Ice Cube and Dre were putting out in the early 90's.

[Alex]

Though he isn't nearly as popular, and underrated (especially on Deliverance, which contains some of Timbaland's best production work in awhile), Bubba Sparxx, a rural Southerner, is somebody else who wouldn't be where he is if he tried to emerge 15 years ago.

While i agree with the popularity comment, you would be hard pressed to find a music magazine that didn't suck off that album like no other.
And i still haven;t heard it, but at least with critical acclaim to be considered, that album is nowhere near underrated.

[Punchy McSplodo]

While i agree with the popularity comment, you would be hard pressed to find a music magazine that didn't suck off that album like no other.
And i still haven;t heard it, but at least with critical acclaim to be considered, that album is nowhere near underrated.


Yeah, I should've ammended that--I meant underrated by listeners outside the media, but the popularity comment already deals with that.

You should find a way to give it a listen, especially if you've ever liked anything from Timbaland in the past. It might not be quite as good as the press hyped it, and some tracks miss the mark, but it's a worthy overall effort.

[Alex]

Yeah, I should've ammended that--I meant underrated by listeners outside the media, but the popularity comment already deals with that.

You should find a way to give it a listen, especially if you've ever liked anything from Timbaland in the past. It might not be quite as good as the press hyped it, and some tracks miss the mark, but it's a worthy overall effort.
I might check it out, its been on the list, but its one of those things i always miss.
Ive sort of ibecome ncredibly burnt out on rap lately.

[venuscameback]

Toby Keith [is] a redneck


has no-one told him about suntan lotion?

i wish there was such a quick and easy prevention of all rednecks ...


dlw

[Patient Boy]

Oh my God there are two Punchys now?!?

[howyadoin]

i have to agree, though. i liked him better when he was an angry young man...You thought Billy Joel was angry?

Okay, that's funny.

[Flawless P]

[url]http://news.yahoo.com/news?
The closest to this you get in country music is the Dixie Chicks calling Toby Keith a redneck and him calling them pinkos.
WTF????

Well it is like my Grandma says "Country music is gonna be the only kinda music around in a few years... The Rappers are gonna kill each other and the Rockers are gonna kill themeselves... That leaves country."

[monkeysweat]

Won't the country dudes all drink themselves to death after their wives and dogs leave them?

[Leslie Lee III]

And I was wondering where the, "Why rap sucks" thread for this week was.

[Matt_K]

Yeah, there is always a fortnightly "I hate rap thread" written virtually 100% of the time by someone who hasn't listened to it. I was going to wonder why other oft-despised genres like dance and country don't get similar threads on the same schedule but it's probably because they don't have the massive media exposure needed to irritate those who dislike it that rap does.

[howyadoin]

Won't the country dudes all drink themselves to death after their wives and dogs leave them?Heh. Most of those guys have constitutions like Keith Richards - they've all got years in them yet.

[Ayo]

Yeah, there is always a fortnightly "I hate rap thread" written virtually 100% of the time by someone who hasn't listened to it. I was going to wonder why other oft-despised genres like dance and country don't get similar threads on the same schedule but it's probably because they don't have the massive media exposure needed to irritate those who dislike it that rap does.

True.

If someone did the "I hate dance/techno*/electronica!" thread, it would probably make it up to seven responses before dropping to the bottom (or either, thread drift makes the thread more interesting).


That said...I hate rap. Grrr, in it's general direction.


*nobody listens to techno!

[Sage Shinigami]

Yeah, and it seems to always be 'I'm rich but I'm keeping it REAL."

Just once, I'd like to hear a rich rapper rapping about his friends mooching off'a him or something.

Or has that been done?


Just recently, to my knowledge.

Ludacris' Large Amounts.
http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/ludacris/largeamounts.html

As for rap...eh, I like it. Sorta. Should've stopped with southern rappers though...I AM from the South and the more popular ones are killing what's left of rap, starting with Cash-Money (KNEW I should've sniped those guys instead of taking them as a joke!) and working up to Li'l John, who falls under that category where the guest stars on his album are FAR better than he is.

[CitizenKing]

You thought Billy Joel was angry?

Okay, that's funny.

If I were Billy Joel I'd be damn pissed too.

Leslie you make it sound like the entire board jumped up and yelled "RAP SUCKS!" Most are saying that alot of it is very stagnant and isn't much to it. There is still rappers like Aesop Rock, Sage Francis, Atmosphere, Mr. Lif, and tons others making rap that's good and relevant and not stuck in this titties n' cash wave like Lil'Jon and stuff.

BTW Jurrasic 5 has a good song calling out all kinds of fake rappers called "One Of Them."

[Sage Shinigami]

If I were Billy Joel I'd be damn pissed too.

Leslie you make it sound like the entire board jumped up and yelled "RAP SUCKS!" Most are saying that alot of it is very stagnant and isn't much to it. There is still rappers like Aesop Rock, Sage Francis, Atmosphere, Mr. Lif, and tons others making rap that's good and relevant and not stuck in this titties n' cash wave like Lil'Jon and stuff.

BTW Jurrasic 5 has a good song calling out all kinds of fake rappers called "One Of Them."

Yeah, but...Jurassic 5 sucks. :D

[CitizenKing]

Yeah, but...Jurassic 5 sucks. :D

SHUT YO MOUFF!

[Atomic Mongoose]

I can't stand the whole schpeal about "Oh, fo' real! Rap be da soundtrack to da streetz! It da story about da struggle, my nizzle! It be about keepin' it real yo! WORD!!!". Please. 99% of rappers are illiterate chromagnum men who are quicker to "bust a cap in yo ass" than actually attempt an intelligent conversation. We all know the trouble that multiple syllables are for some people. I say just keep throwing the massive amounts of cash at them, and keep them in their "bling bling", and LET THEM murder each other like a bunch of howler monkeys fighting over a bunch of bananas. As long as it means I never have to hear a song by 50 Cent on the radio again.

[monkeysweat]

LET THEM murder each other like a bunch of howler monkeys fighting over a bunch of bananas.
You're tiptoeing into dangerous ground with that shit, son. Mind your mouth.

[Leslie Lee III]

If I were Billy Joel I'd be damn pissed too.

Leslie you make it sound like the entire board jumped up and yelled "RAP SUCKS!" Most are saying that alot of it is very stagnant and isn't much to it. There is still rappers like Aesop Rock, Sage Francis, Atmosphere, Mr. Lif, and tons others making rap that's good and relevant and not stuck in this titties n' cash wave like Lil'Jon and stuff.

BTW Jurrasic 5 has a good song calling out all kinds of fake rappers called "One Of Them."

Oh no rap doesn't suck, just most of it, all of it's that's "mainstream." Same shit, different day. And a week from now there'll be another thread with the same shit. And then another and then another. And people will justify it by naming a few off the "10 Hip Hop Artists that are cool for non-hip hop fans to like" as if they were so much and so immediately better than "mainstream" artists simply because their subject matter is different. Using the logic I see in these "Why Hip Hop sucks" threads, Creed would be a better band than the Clash.

I can't stand the whole schpeal about "Oh, fo' real! Rap be da soundtrack to da streetz! It da story about da struggle, my nizzle! It be about keepin' it real yo! WORD!!!". Please. 99% of rappers are illiterate chromagnum men who are quicker to "bust a cap in yo ass" than actually attempt an intelligent conversation. We all know the trouble that multiple syllables are for some people. I say just keep throwing the massive amounts of cash at them, and keep them in their "bling bling", and LET THEM murder each other like a bunch of howler monkeys fighting over a bunch of bananas. As long as it means I never have to hear a song by 50 Cent on the radio again.

Haven't seen racism as blatant in any of these threads before. Kudos to this idiot for preventing it from being too boring.

[howyadoin]

99% of rappers are illiterate chromagnum men who are quicker to "bust a cap in yo ass" than actually attempt an intelligent conversation. We all know the trouble that multiple syllables are for some people.Then again, you apparently don't have the education necessary to spell "cro magnon".

[Jigganaut]

I can't stand the whole schpeal about "Oh, fo' real! Rap be da soundtrack to da streetz! It da story about da struggle, my nizzle! It be about keepin' it real yo! WORD!!!". Please. 99% of rappers are illiterate chromagnum men who are quicker to "bust a cap in yo ass" than actually attempt an intelligent conversation. We all know the trouble that multiple syllables are for some people. I say just keep throwing the massive amounts of cash at them, and keep them in their "bling bling", and LET THEM murder each other like a bunch of howler monkeys fighting over a bunch of bananas. As long as it means I never have to hear a song by 50 Cent on the radio again.
:evilangry :evilangry :evilangry

[Ed Cunard]

Then again, you apparently don't have the education necessary to spell "cro magnon".

I'm now going to start a hip hop troup called the Chromagnum Men.

Just for this nitwit.

[Ayo]

I can't stand the whole schpeal about "Oh, fo' real! Rap be da soundtrack to da streetz! It da story about da struggle, my nizzle! It be about keepin' it real yo! WORD!!!". Please. 99% of rappers are illiterate chromagnum men who are quicker to "bust a cap in yo ass" than actually attempt an intelligent conversation. We all know the trouble that multiple syllables are for some people. I say just keep throwing the massive amounts of cash at them, and keep them in their "bling bling", and LET THEM murder each other like a bunch of howler monkeys fighting over a bunch of bananas. As long as it means I never have to hear a song by 50 Cent on the radio again.

*yawn*

*stretch*

*rolls over*

[Atomic Mongoose]

OK, I'll take the heat for looking like an idiot with my 'creative spelling' of 'cro magnon'... but how the Hell is any of my opinion considered racist? I'm commenting on rap music, not race. It would make my opinion completely hypocritical in that ignorant bigots are basically on the same level as the thugs who write 'music' about shooting cops and raping bitches. I don't give a rat's ass what race anybody claims as their own. Crappy music is crappy music coming from anybody.

[Sage Shinigami]

OK, I'll take the heat for looking like an idiot with my 'creative spelling' of 'cro magnon'... but how the Hell is any of my opinion considered racist? I'm commenting on rap music, not race. It would make my opinion completely hypocritical in that ignorant bigots are basically on the same level as the thugs who write 'music' about shooting cops and raping bitches. I don't give a rat's ass what race anybody claims as their own. Crappy music is crappy music coming from anybody.

And a racist by any other name...

[Leslie Lee III]

It would make my opinion completely hypocritical

It's already completely hypocritical. You're calling out rappers for their lack of intelligence when you don't seem very intelligent yourself.

[Atomic Mongoose]

Unless rappers are now considered a race unto themselves, I fail to see how any of what I wrote would be considered racist. It seems like 'racist' is just a great all-purpose cop-out term to throw around whenever it is convenient, or when an opinion isn't padded in ten layers of political correctness. If I made the same comment in a thread about, say, Marilyn Manson or goth-rock, would we be having this discussion right now?

[cactusmaac]

OK, I'll take the heat for looking like an idiot with my 'creative spelling' of 'cro magnon'... but how the Hell is any of my opinion considered racist? I'm commenting on rap music, not race. It would make my opinion completely hypocritical in that ignorant bigots are basically on the same level as the thugs who write 'music' about shooting cops and raping bitches. I don't give a rat's ass what race anybody claims as their own. Crappy music is crappy music coming from anybody.

You might not be aware of this but it is common for racists to describe blacks as monkeys.

In the early 80's and 70's, black footballers in Britain commonly had bananas thrown at them by bigoted opposition fans.

So mind your tongue.

[Atomic Mongoose]

It's already completely hypocritical. You're calling out rappers for their lack of intelligence when you don't seem very intelligent yourself.

Try giving examples, rather than just playing the ever-so-vague Race Card every other post and leaving it at that. If my supposed lack of intelligence is due to my incorrect spelling of some scientific term like 'cro magnon', then I'm sorry. I'm not calling you stupid, I'm just stating an opinion that doesn't seem to be very popular on this board. I guess that makes me the minority. So stop being racist.

[Ayo]

Try giving examples, rather than just playing the ever-so-vague Race Card every other post and leaving it at that. If my supposed lack of intelligence is due to my incorrect spelling of some scientific term like 'cro magnon', then I'm sorry. I'm not calling you stupid, I'm just stating an opinion that doesn't seem to be very popular on this board. I guess that makes me the minority. So stop being racist.


It's one thing to be racist. It's another thing entirely to deny it and pretend that you don't know that you're a racist, you racist.

I'll stop calling you a racist when you stop calling black people monkeys, you racist.

[Atomic Mongoose]

You might not be aware of this but it is common for racists to describe blacks as monkeys.

In the early 80's and 70's, black footballers in Britain commonly had bananas thrown at them by bigoted opposition fans.

So mind your tongue.

Alright, well this I wasn't aware of. I've never heard the term used before, and if I had, I definitely would not have used it in my original post. To clarify, when I was writing about rappers, I wasn't just talking about the majority of which who are black. For example, when I think of rap, the name Eminem pops into mind just as frequently as any other name in the industry. My comments weren't directed at a specific racial profile. Anyway, all that aside, I apologize to anybody who took offense to the comment I made earlier. I didn't know about the story or history that is attached to it. My mistake.

[Ed Cunard]

Crappy music is crappy music coming from anybody.

What kind of music do you listen to? I'd put money that, on some level, it's on equal intellectual footing to most of the hip hop out there today (mainstream, underground, or whatever) simply because popular music is not a mind-expanding thing, generally speaking.

Of course, if you're listening to Stephen Hawking and John Ashberry teaming up to express quantum physics in verse over the musical stylings of King Floyd, or something, then I take it all back, every single word.

[Leslie Lee III]

I can't stand the whole schpeal

Does anyone know what a "schpeal" is?

[Atomic Mongoose]

It's one thing to be racist. It's another thing entirely to deny it and pretend that you don't know that you're a racist, you racist.

I'll stop calling you a racist when you stop calling black people monkeys, you racist.

I'll try not to cry. At least one person corrected me and told me what the Hell it was that offended everybody. That's called being constructive, rather than automatically assuming I'm some Arkansas-born nut job sitting at his computer in a white sheet with a pointy hood. Good lord, the whole issue could have been resolved if somebody told me this bit of info about 10 posts ago. Over, done with, lesson learned, moving on...

[Ed Cunard]

Does anyone know what a "schpeal" is?

I think it's a misspelling of "spiel," which may, in fact, also be a misspelling, since I've never had to type it before.

Don't ask for the etymology, because I'm lazy.

[Leslie Lee III]

What kind of music do you listen to? I'd put money that, on some level, it's on equal intellectual footing to most of the hip hop out there today (mainstream, underground, or whatever) simply because popular music is not a mind-expanding thing, generally speaking.

Yes. Popular music is a great at manipulating emotions and starting up the imagination, I thought think it usually does much with the intellect. And that's okay, we have books for that.

[Ayo]

I'll try not to cry. At least one person corrected me and told me what the Hell it was that offended everybody. That's called being constructive, rather than automatically assuming I'm some Arkansas-born nut job sitting at his computer in a white sheet with a pointy hood. Good lord, the whole issue could have been resolved if somebody told me this bit of info about 10 posts ago. Over, done with, lesson learned, moving on...

Wipe your mouth.


Seriously, we're not your educators. "Constructive," what do you think this is? A creative writing class? You say racist stuff and you get your balls nailed to the wall, and you deserve it too.

Nevermind "Arkansas" or your "white sheets" references: you said something fucked up, got nailed promptly for it, and you're still trying to cop a plea. Fuck that. You say you didn't know?

A) yeah right.

B) Ignorance of the law is no excuse for breaking it.


And nobody's "moving on," your attitude sucks. You want to cop an attitude, but you forget that you're the one who's entirely in the wrong.

[monkeysweat]

I'll try not to cry. At least one person corrected me and told me what the Hell it was that offended everybody. That's called being constructive, rather than automatically assuming I'm some Arkansas-born nut job sitting at his computer in a white sheet with a pointy hood. Good lord, the whole issue could have been resolved if somebody told me this bit of info about 10 posts ago. Over, done with, lesson learned, moving on...
Your whole post was suspect. At worst, a racist diatribe. At best, an ignorant rant against ignorance. You seem to have trouble with words, both mono- and multi-syllabic. Maybe you could best avoid problems by not obnoxiously barreling into a discussion without adequate knowledge of the subject being discussed.

And you're not authorized to use "nizzle".

[CitizenKing]

Oh no rap doesn't suck, just most of it, all of it's that's "mainstream." Same shit, different day. And a week from now there'll be another thread with the same shit. And then another and then another. And people will justify it by naming a few off the "10 Hip Hop Artists that are cool for non-hip hop fans to like" as if they were so much and so immediately better than "mainstream" artists simply because their subject matter is different. Using the logic I see in these "Why Hip Hop sucks" threads, Creed would be a better band than the Clash.

Straight off the bat I don't understand the Creed over Clash statement. Yeah most people say that mainstream rap does suck because well that's what they think. I personnaly don't like much mainstream not only for the lack of any subject matter other than "Ho, money, and crystal" but for the weak beats to most of it. I simply don't like most of the stuff that is put out into the mainstream.

Yeah alot of non-mainstream rappers have a lot better flow, beats, and subject matter than mainstream rappers. But you make it sound like people are sayign they like these rappers just to seem "hip." About the only really mainstream rapper I like is Ludacris since I find his stuff funny as hell.

And while Atomic's first post boiled my own blood at its seemingly racist statement he has apologized for making the mistake he did not know about. Most likely he said howler monkeys since well howler monkeys are loud and annoying. I'd give him the benefit of the doubt and beleive that he really didn't know about the racism that he came across with. Then again I may be wrong and he's a hate mongering racist apologizing for some reason.

[iwarrior]

Eh,celebs of all stripes get into trouble. Many rappers come from the street,and I guess that stuff follows them into stardom and causes additional problems. But popular music in general has a long history of performers who were screw-ups. Rappers are no different. I don't think it's always their fault. People get jealous of them and want to make a name for themselves.

This stuff has happened in metal too. The Norwegian black metal scene can give ya the willies. Read about Mayhem...

http://www.metal-archives.com/more.php?id=67

http://www.answers.com/topic/mayhem-band


Or Dissection...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissection_%28band%29

[Leslie Lee III]

Straight off the bat I don't understand the Creed over Clash statement.

Creed's subject matter is more serious than the Clash usually. But Creed still sucks, and the Clash is still awesome, and neither is really significantly intellectual more than the other. Just like all the cool rappers that are cool to like. I don't really care about Talib Kweli or Common's views on politics, but if they can flow they can flow. Same with all the mainstream rappers who can flow better than either of them and use some of the same producers.

[Knightmare]

Can I first say Creed does not suck. Geez...even in a rap thread there not safe.


As for the guys ran on rap. I didn't really catch the racism unless you take into account the monkey which I'd say was just a wrong choice of words. However- I tihnk his rant on rap was entirely over the top and sounds like he's simply generalizing from what the news talks about. I can't stand alot of what's being put out now- guys like 50 cent are way over rated ( the next 2pac...yeah right.) and Jay-Z who wasn't really good for much after a few singles. But the music still has it's appeal. And I'd make some kind of comment...but I'm so lost after trying to read 11 pages of this.

[CitizenKing]

Creed's subject matter is more serious than the Clash usually. But Creed still sucks, and the Clash is still awesome, and neither is really significantly intellectual more than the other. Just like all the cool rappers that are cool to like. I don't really care about Talib Kweli or Common's views on politics, but if they can flow they can flow. Same with all the mainstream rappers who can flow better than either of them and use some of the same producers.

Creed's subject matter is Stapp's Jesus complex and if that's deeper then The Clash then so help us God. But that isn't the point of this thread is it?

Well there lies the difference in what alot of people see in rap. Some are there and focus alot on the lyrics and in many instances Common and Talib have better lyrics than say Lil' Jon and Nelly. Don't act like people just listen to the like Talib and Lif just to be cool and "hip." In alot of areas it's cool to listen to nelly and mainstream rap.

[Ugoff]

[QUOTE=Boldido]http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=762&e=1&u=/ap/20050318/ap_en_mu/lil__kim_shootout

It looks like Lil' Kim will be going to prison for perjury for lying about what she did or didn't see outside a nightclub where a shooting took place. The article indicates that it has something to do with a rival rap group.

Why does this kind of shit exist with rappers? Tupac v. Biggie East Coast v. West Coast. Lil' Kim v. some group I never heard of.

The closest to this you get in country music is the Dixie Chicks calling Toby Keith a redneck and him calling them pinkos.

I can't recall ever hearing stories about Bono doing a drive by on Michael Stipe's house.

The type of drama that gets people killed is started by who knows! People in the business who are ignorant or just to damn ghetto/gangsta. According to Faith Evans(B.I.G.'s ex-wife) there never was an East Coast v. West Coast thing. It was all started by outside forces, and things they thought Biggie said against someone else he never said. You cant believe everything you read or see on tv. I for one believe Faith Evans althought I even take what she says with a grain of salt cuz I dont know what really went down. As for Will Smith and Queen Latifah their as popular, actually more popular now then they ever were. I like rap and hip hop and the culutral aspects but it's become all about conforming to the norm. If your not 100% hip hop and dress a certain way, your abnormal. I delt with that alot in high school and it still hasnt change. I can walk around in my neighborhood and see all the teens to 30 somethings dressing alike. It's weird especially since hip hop is so diverse and different and ever changing.

[Ugoff]

Eh,celebs of all stripes get into trouble. Many rappers come from the street,and I guess that stuff follows them into stardom and causes additional problems. But popular music in general has a long history of performers who were screw-ups. Rappers are no different. I don't think it's always their fault. People get jealous of them and want to make a name for themselves.

This stuff has happened in metal too. The Norwegian black metal scene can give ya the willies. Read about Mayhem...

http://www.metal-archives.com/more.php?id=67

http://www.answers.com/topic/mayhem-band


Or Dissection...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissection_%28band%29

I agree. I dont know much about drama in other musical genres but it kinda gels with the debate over lyrics/album content. James O'Reilly or whatever his name is,is almost always bashing Ludacris and rap music about lyrics/album content but other musical genres are just as crazy/controversial with lyrics/album content. I really feel rap/hip hop needs some kind of make over but I dont see how it could happen or even if it would work.