Superman vs the Flash

[Smokey]

I've posted this on other forums..and got some interesting replies, thought i'd try it here


ill go with my opinion:

even though flash is faster, this isnt a race, i think in the end superman would come out on top

[Hiromi]

I think Flash could do a speed steal at the beginning, which would pretty much give it to him, afterwards he can start pulling the plot device attacks out until Supes goes down.

[Nega Knight]

Wally has taken out Superman level foes before (i.e., White Martians). If he's going all out, Flash is just too much for the Man of Steel to handle.

[Shellhead]

What about Pre-Crisis, before this whole Speed Force thing was around? I don't think Pre-Crisis Flash can even harm Superman without kryptonite.

[Nega Knight]

Well, sure. Pre-crisis, Flash didn't even have the speed advantage.

[Smokey]

but as far as i know, flash has never used his speed drain on superman(if he has i take this back) so we have no idea if it would even work on superman

but also does flash need to touch the person he speed drains? if so then this would give supes an opportunity to grab him

also im not really counting throwing in some bad plot devices, if supermans speed was stolen i would assume he could just fly up a few feet and wait till he absorbs enough rays from the sun to regain his speed, but he would still have invulnerability

[raoulduke]

Supes ain't touching Wally. During the Zoom II fight, Flash and Zoom were moving so fast that Superman was just a statue to them.

[Smokey]

that might be so, but this isnt a race, if wally wants to win, he NEEDS to touch superman and vice versa

even if flash took away supermans speed, i dont see how he'd inflict any damage without injuring himself

im just saying i think it would be hard for the flash to be able to dodge all of supermans punches, while simultaneously trying to land his own, and avoiding heat vision at point blank range

[Shellhead]

even if flash took away supermans speed, i dont see how he'd inflict any damage without injuring himself


Oh, I know this one... Flash would use that Infinite Mass punch that everybody likes to talk about here.

[Jathan]

This fight has already been tackled numerous times. And while I was on Superman's side at first. I was then told about the ridiculously uber move known as the Infinite Mass Punch. It's unbeatable. Pre Crisis would be ok.....maybe. I don't know if it would hurt him, but it might move him to another country, solar system, galaxy, or universe.

[Smokey]

to my knowledge, flash used that before on superman and to no real success, that however might be able to be thrown out as bad writing

but doesnt doing the mass infinite punch drain all if not most of the flashes energy? so if he did it, and it didnt work he would be vulnerable

[Smokey]

This fight has already been tackled numerous times. And while I was on Superman's side at first. I was then told about the ridiculously uber move known as the Infinite Mass Punch. It's unbeatable. Pre Crisis would be ok.....maybe. I don't know if it would hurt him, but it might move him to another country, solar system, galaxy, or universe.


im sure the move would send him flying( i doubt off the planet) but i dont see this move killing superman

edit: and like i said, im pretty sure while under mind control from grodd, flash did that and it didnt kill him

[Alan2099]

Flash has degenerated into having Dues Ex machina as a power. It seems he can do anything as long as it involves the word "speed".

Speed Up Superman's molecular vibration until he explodes.
Grab Superman and run into the future where the's no more yellow sun.
Slow down Superman's heart until it stops.

And if nothing else works, he can just "sacrifice" himself to the Speedforce again and come back three minutes later with a new costume and powers.

[Smokey]

i doubt any of that would work to be honest, if someone posts otherwise ill take it back but we have no idea how supermans invulnerability would effect flashes ability to drain his speed, speed up his heart/molecules

[raoulduke]

that might be so, but this isnt a race, if wally wants to win, he NEEDS to touch superman and vice versa

even if flash took away supermans speed, i dont see how he'd inflict any damage without injuring himself

im just saying i think it would be hard for the flash to be able to dodge all of supermans punches, while simultaneously trying to land his own, and avoiding heat vision at point blank range

You're not getting it. It has nothing at all to do with racing. SUPERMAN WILL BE A STATUE TO WALLY. Wally doesn't have to be moving to make that happen, his super-speed perceptions take care of that. He won't need to dodge fuck all. Superman won't be doing anything at all to him.

And the infinite mass punch knocked out a white martian, beings that can trade blows with Superman. He also mentioned he could have done it a million times but just needed to do it once.

So yes, he can hurt Superman and no, it won't injure himself.

[Smokey]

You're not getting it. It has nothing at all to do with racing. SUPERMAN WILL BE A STATUE TO WALLY. Wally doesn't have to be moving to make that happen, his super-speed perceptions take care of that. He won't need to dodge fuck all. Superman won't be doing anything at all to him.

And the infinite mass punch knocked out a white martian, beings that can trade blows with Superman. He also mentioned he could have done it a million times but just needed to do it once.

So yes, he can hurt Superman and no, it won't injure himself.


superman will be a statue says who? cuz during one fight he was? what about ALL the other times superman has been right behind flash in terms of speed?

[Jathan]

Exactly why would that stuff not work? Stopping someone's heart would kill them. Pre-Crisis Superman isn't ALL powerful. There are beings who can stop him (Thanos, Pre-Crisis Darkside, etc....). Flash is has aquired traits that are cosmic level feats. The Infinite Mass Punch would knock Superman out of the Arena. Fight over. Now if it is a fight to the death then that might be a diff story.

[raoulduke]

superman will be a statue says who? cuz during one fight he was? what about ALL the other times superman has been right behind flash in terms of speed?

You mean like...uh 10 years ago?

Cause he's not even close to Wally these days.

[Smokey]

supermans survived a mass infinite punch before, bottom line

[Jathan]

Exactly....The Infinite Mass Punch is and INFINITE amount of mass hitting someone. That would KO any entity. Cosmics included.

[Smokey]

it didnt work before

[Jathan]

Never said he didn't survive it....You know what? Show me strip where he took the punch. I would like evidence that it didn't knock him out.

[Smokey]

i have no clue where to get the strip, all i know is that he survived it

[raoulduke]

i have no clue where to get the strip, all i know is that he survived it

Until you can prove it...doesn't work.

And also, Wally can hit him with a lot more than one.

[Smokey]

and whoever mentioned white martians, the ONLY thing the flash could really do to stop one was the mass infinite punch, so bad example

[raoulduke]

i doubt any of that would work to be honest, if someone posts otherwise ill take it back but we have no idea how supermans invulnerability would effect flashes ability to drain his speed, speed up his heart/molecules

Flash used his vibration technique to blow the armor off the Anti-Monitor who was casually taking punches from Superman and a bunch of other powerful DC heroes.

[Smokey]

Flash used his vibration technique to blow the armor off the Anti-Monitor who was casually taking punches from Superman and a bunch of other powerful DC heroes.


however, they only fight the anti monitor in the anti matter universe, and if memory serves me correct, dont they state that in the anti matter universe kryptonians arent as strong

[Shellhead]

It seems like Flash as portrayed on the Rumbles board is like an uber-Iron Fist. Every fight ends with a single super-powered punch.

[Smokey]

flash has had trouble with weather wizard, boomerang, hes FAR from uber..superman would win in the end i think

of course im talking post crisis superman, pre crisis superman..it isnt even a discussion as to who would win, if flash was so uberly powerful wouldnt he just mass infinite punch every villain for an instant KO? but he doesnt

[raoulduke]

flash has had trouble with weather wizard, boomerang, hes FAR from uber..superman would win in the end i think

of course im talking post crisis superman, pre crisis superman..it isnt even a discussion as to who would win

And Superman has trouble with guys like Toyman.

God! We don't take the low, non-sensical showings into account here. Seriously, read the FAQ. Then read it again cause you're obviously not getting it.

[Smokey]

get over it, i didnt make any of it up nor did i take it from a cartoon, point is flashes list of badguys are much weaker in comparison to most of the people superman faces, and i was replying to his comment about flash being uber

cuz if flash is SO utterly powerful wouldnt he ALWAYS use the mass infinite punch everytime for guaranteed success?

[raoulduke]

get over it, i didnt make any of it up nor did i take it from a cartoon, point is flashes list of badguys are much weaker in comparison to most of the people superman faces, and i was replying to his comment about flash being uber

cuz if flash is SO utterly powerful wouldnt he ALWAYS use the mass infinite punch everytime for guaranteed success?

Why does Superman use his super-speed to end every battle in like a second?

Sorry, but you're not really helping your case here. As much as you argue, it's been proven time and time again on these boards that the Flash going all out would stomp Superman going all out.

[Smokey]

because that wouldnt work with every single person he faced up against


and its been proven? how? the only time ive seen them fight in the comics, flash has lost, thats the only real proof there is

both going all out, you can forget your "superman would be a statue" flashs superspeed only gives him limited protection at high speeds, didnt flash break his hands on Grodd? if he did he would surely injure himself on superman eventually

and someone said flash could die and come back more powerful, but then couldnt superman engulf himself in the sun and boost his powers even more like he did(i think) against asmodel, and wouldnt this tactic work whether flash died or not

[Rockman]

Let's look at the fight with zoom and wonderwoman she was able to take some punches from zoom and was conscience enough to take more punishment. So that proves that the infinite punch hurts more then a 100 ton hero or villain punch,but that the person can survive it. Yes your probuly going to say that zoom was jobbing and other things. But I believe that proves that the infinite punch is not that a automatic win.

[raoulduke]

because that wouldnt work with every single person he faced up against

Yeah but it would for a lot of them like say Lobo, Metallo, The Prankster, Toyman, Parasite, basically any guy who doesn't have super-speed



and its been proven? how? the only time ive seen them fight in the comics, flash has lost, thats the only real proof there is

No it's not.

[raoulduke]

and someone said flash could die and come back more powerful

Someone said it as a joke and judging by your "I'm only kidding" stuff in other posts, you really should've known that.

[Smokey]

i was just commenting on it for the sake of commenting on it..lol

also, remember superman doesnt kill, and the impact would kill toyman, prankster, parasite, however it wouldnt kill lobo or metallo

if u meant just go about rounding them up at superspeed, well its just like heat vision..the heat visions supposed to be invisible, but we as the viewers see it, we need to see it to know hes using it, just like if superman used his true speed to apprehend people would take seconds, and there wouldnt be much of a show/comic, i mean its cool to see him use superspeed to build shit or to go places, but we want it slowed down when it comes to punching and destroying things

my point about the flash was really against the more powerful people, who after he recognized there was no other way to defeat, why he simply didnt do that, but if he cant kill superman with it, it wouldnt do much against the upper tier of villains like darkseid, doomsday, etc.

[raoulduke]

i was just commenting on it for the sake of commenting on it..lol

also, remember superman doesnt kill, and the impact would kill toyman, prankster, parasite, however it wouldnt kill lobo or metallo

if u meant just go about rounding them up at superspeed, well its just like heat vision..the heat visions supposed to be invisible, but we as the viewers see it, we need to see it to know hes using it, just like if superman used his true speed to apprehend people would take seconds, and there wouldnt be much of a show/comic

Exactly my point. If the Flash went all out and defeated all his enemies in atto-seconds there wouldn't be much of a comic.

And I'm pretty sure the heat-vision is visible.


my point about the flash was really against the more powerful people, who after he recognized there was no other way to defeat, why he simply didnt do that

Huh? Since The Flash ain't defeated much, what you're saying doesn't make sense.

And once again, PIS. If you don't know what it means I'll cue up the broken yet much needed record and say READ THE FAQ.

[Smokey]

flash was beaten by doomsday, where was his punch then? or is that a no no of your almighty FAQ too?

[raoulduke]

flash was beaten by doomsday, where was his punch then? or is that a no no of your almighty FAQ too?

It actually is.

PIS.

[Smokey]

i know what PIS means, and youre suggesting that they had the flash hold back? sorry no

flash would of had no chance against doomsday, i believe youre beloved FAQ calls it a spiderman vs firelord

[raoulduke]

i know what PIS means, and youre suggesting that they had the flash hold back? sorry no

flash would of had no chance against doomsday, i believe youre beloved FAQ calls it a spiderman vs firelord

No it wouldn't. And drop this condescending attitude.

As for him having no chance against Doomsday, that's really up for debate.

[Tusk]

...And if nothing else works, he can just "sacrifice" himself to the Speedforce again and come back three minutes later with a new costume and powers.

New costume and powers by just "sacrificing" himself to the SF? When did that happen?

[Shellhead]

It really sounds like Flash has outgrown most of his Rogues Gallery. Either he needs new enemies, or, more reasonably, a power-down.

[Andross]

It actually is.

PIS.

If the Flash getting beat by Doomsday is PIS, then the Flash breaking the Anti-Monitor's armor is major PIS.

[CDTM]

If the Flash getting beat by Doomsday is PIS, then the Flash breaking the Anti-Monitor's armor is major PIS.

It's not like Flash beat AM. If Hulk's major upper ends can be explained away as infinite strength, Flash's major upper end feats can be explained away as infinite speed, which is what he is...

[Andross]

It's not like Flash beat AM. If Hulk's major upper ends can be explained away as infinite strength, Flash's major upper end feats can be explained away as infinite speed, which is what he is...

I didn't say that the Flash defeated the Anti-Monitor, I stated that he broke his armor, which is still PIS in my opinion. I also have nothing against Flash's major upper end feats, but that is a bit much. Anti-Monitor was taking hits from the Spectre and the Sentinels of Magic and didn't have his armor broken. Infinite Mass Punch or not, I don't think it should break an armor of an entity whose hobbies include destroying universes.

And the Flash isn't infinite speed, Zoom can prove that.

[CDTM]

I didn't say that the Flash defeated the Anti-Monitor, I stated that he broke his armor, which is still PIS in my opinion. I also have nothing against Flash's major upper end feats, but that is a bit much. Anti-Monitor was taking hits from the Spectre and the Sentinels of Magic and didn't have his armor broken. Infinite Mass Punch or not, I don't think it should break an armor of an entity whose hobbies include destroying universes.

And the Flash isn't infinite speed, Zoom can prove that.

Absorbing speeds part of his power set.

But even without that, there's been several times in continuity when Flash simply pulled more speed out of his ass because he wasn't accessing the speed force to it's full potential. It's not entirely unreasonable to assume that maybe he could attain even Zoom II level speeds on his own, if the plot Gods deemed it...

[Andross]

Don't get me wrong CDTM, I have nothing against the Flash, and I understand him being able to absorb speed powers off of other speedsters, for that is one of his powersets, in which I am not even argueing about. What I am saying though is that it isn't proven that the Flash can achieve an infinite amount of speed. An infinite amount of mass yes, but not an infinite amount of speed. And while the writers could one day make Wally faster than Zoom, they haven't done so, so far, so for now we can safely say that Zoom is faster than the Flash, and that Wally can't obtain an infinite amount of speed.

[Tazer]

Yo.

lets all remember 1 thing: Supes doesnt need to *stay on the ground* in order to fight Wally.

this fight basically consists of Supes hovering 200ft in the air and Wally trying to stay away from an ever-moving "hot-spot" (since its debatable whether HV is visible of not).

and I dont think Supes will exactly be a statue to Wally when just recently the man went from America to the Middle East in 3 secs or less; thats not a slowpoke by *any* definition of the term.




Tazer

[VCreed32]

snip

and I dont think Supes will exactly be a statue to Wally when just recently the man went from America to the Middle East in 3 secs or less; thats not a slowpoke by *any* definition of the term.
Lol. Yes, the 'ell it is when the Flash can do that at least twice before Supes moves.

[raoulduke]

snip
Lol. Yes, the 'ell it is when the Flash can do that at least twice before Supes moves.

Yeah, didn't the Flash and Zoom II cover earth three times in like a second or less.

[Brian R]

Im not reading through all these pages just so I can say:

Wally wins, easily. He is MUCH faster than Clark, so much so that without PIS Supes should never lay a finger on him.

Flash either dumps him into the speedforce, IM Punches him, or just hits him a million times per second until Supes goes down.

[Brian R]

Don't get me wrong CDTM, I have nothing against the Flash, and I understand him being able to absorb speed powers off of other speedsters, for that is one of his powersets, in which I am not even argueing about. What I am saying though is that it isn't proven that the Flash can achieve an infinite amount of speed. An infinite amount of mass yes, but not an infinite amount of speed. And while the writers could one day make Wally faster than Zoom, they haven't done so, so far, so for now we can safely say that Zoom is faster than the Flash, and that Wally can't obtain an infinite amount of speed.

Zoom doesnt have superspeed. Wally is basically infinite speed, Zoom wins because he isnt playing on a level field, his powers are time-manipulation.

[jadehorde]

Exactly why would that stuff not work? Stopping someone's heart would kill them. Pre-Crisis Superman isn't ALL powerful. There are beings who can stop him (Thanos, Pre-Crisis Darkside, etc....). Flash is has aquired traits that are cosmic level feats. The Infinite Mass Punch would knock Superman out of the Arena. Fight over. Now if it is a fight to the death then that might be a diff story.

I sincerely doubt Thanos could take Pre-Crisis Supes in HTH or any closecombat type fight...with prep, sure, but not just in a fisticuffs fight.

Doesn't quite work that way. Ringouts only work if Superman can't get back into the arena...which he can by flying.

[CDTM]

Yeah, didn't the Flash and Zoom II cover earth three times in like a second or less.

They covered every square inch in less then a second, though I forget how many times they circled around. But that parts less impressive then the every inch part anyways...

[SiliconDream]

flash was beaten by doomsday, where was his punch then? or is that a no no of your almighty FAQ too?

That was before Terminal Velocity and Flash's introduction to the Speed Force. Speedstealing, vibrational explosions, lightspeed punches and most of his other high-end tricks weren't around then.


Incidentally, he doesn't have to go lightspeed to hurt Superman. He KOed Mongul with a "regular" (though obviously very fast) punch from a standing start a few yards away. That was at the end of a fight, so I'm not saying Superman would fall like a log from one punch, but he'd feel it. And since Wally can snap off at least ten trillion of those per second, he doesn't even need to bust out the Infinite Mass Punch.

A cool trick would be to speedsteal the sunlight, redshift it and take away Superman's powers...but I've yet to see Wally Doppler-shift EM radiation, so I doubt he'd come up with that in this fight. He wouldn't need to, though.


It really sounds like Flash has outgrown most of his Rogues Gallery. Either he needs new enemies, or, more reasonably, a power-down.
Depends on the writer, I think. Under Waid and Millar/Morrison Flash largely fought a higher class of villain--cosmics, more experienced speedsters, planetary-class sorcerers--and the low-powered enemies were usually successfully written as smart enough to get around Flash's powers or use them against him. Johns seems to prefer the old Rogues lineup and is pretty comfortable having them be a threat to Flash on raw power alone, so a power-down might make sense now.

Wally'd get slaughtered even worse by Zoom II then, though.

[WonderZoon]

Doing a necro bump today

I think Flash is powerful but got a little hyped up after he beat Prime, this guy was powerful but he had a tonne of mental issues. Scared of the dark, scared of the flashers, a stutter, and he got so emo he once carved a big "S" on his chest.
The victory over little Prime is a very shallow one since Prime is already a blubbering emotional mess. The anti-Monitor stuff was PIS, it shouldn't have happened

Real Superman will defeat Flash

As Flash is trying his IMP punch or blitzes of punches Superman goes "burn" and burns up the arena to a horrible exploding inferno. Flash because he has no durability drops like a rag doll.

Superman is the victor

[Captain Morgan]

Doing a necro bump today

I think Flash is powerful but got a little hyped up after he beat Prime, this guy was powerful but he had a tonne of mental issues. Scared of the dark, scared of the flashers, a stutter, and he got so emo he once carved a big "S" on his chest.
The victory over little Prime is a very shallow one since Prime is already a blubbering emotional mess. The anti-Monitor stuff was PIS, it shouldn't have happened

Real Superman will defeat Flash

As Flash is trying his IMP punch or blitzes of punches Superman goes "burn" and burns up the arena to a horrible exploding inferno. Flash because he has no durability drops like a rag doll.

Superman is the victor

Stop it. It's getting old.

Superman is a statue to Flash, and once again, Flash can steal his speed, or KO him with a barrage of punches which knock out White Martians or Mongul, or vibrate through Superman and make him explode.

[Sharpandpointies]

Agreed.

Speedsteal. Dimension dump.

'As' Flash is trying these things, indeed. More like, Flash has oodles of time to do what he wants while Superman is starting to process that the fight has started.

How's Superman going to 'burn' the Flash when Wally is standing behind him, speadstealing him?

[Alan2099]

Infinite speed? I thought that whenever he reached a certain excessive amount of speed, he started to get pulled into the speedforce.

Keep in mind I haven't read Flash regulalary for years.

[abmccray]

Infinite speed? I thought that whenever he reached a certain excessive amount of speed, he started to get pulled into the speedforce.

Keep in mind I haven't read Flash regulalary for years.

That's really only JLU Flash. And even still regular Flash's "medium" speed is still much faster than Superman's reaction time.

[Whirlwind Dinamo]

I didn't say that the Flash defeated the Anti-Monitor, I stated that he broke his armor, which is still PIS in my opinion.

Flash wins Superman dies

He will be all over Superman blitzing him before Superman can even think of doing anything. Same outcome with just about any other member of the Flash family. That's how it works in here but IMO its most probably an extremely false outcome
Maybe I should start another thread for this but here goes

Flash wins it, that's the way it goes under CBR rules, you play by the high-feat rules on this forum and that's why Flash takes it. I've seen many websites do these versus matches across the net and IMO this is still the best one, it has the highest percentage of accurate outcomes and it gets fights resolved quick rather than have them drag on for 20 pages. 90% of the time CBR gets the battles correct, but the battle system is not perfect some of the time CBR outcomes are way, way off. This is one of those fights which is a false outcome..I understand the frustration because I have seen some ridiculous match ups with ridiculous outcomes here.

Using high end feats means the deck always gets stacked in favor of the blitzers, Flash actually has a shot against Darkseid and Galactus. Yes as ridiculous as that sounds Flash has a chance to take down Galactus especially a Galactus who is tired and hungry. Under CBR rules the Flash can be all over the mega-hitters in a mili-second hitting them with Mass punches and maybe scoring a BFR for the win. Under the CBR system a character who doesn't survive with no body or doesn't have insane speed can be taken with a blitz, just about anyone CAN be speed-blitzed

That's one of the problems with the CBR battle system, high showings turns the speedsters into Gods. I like the CBR battle system but it is not fact, under any other system Superman has a very good chance to stomp Flash. Under another battle system Wonder Woman has a real chance, Wizard did a top 10 heroes and Flash didn't even make the top 10. Some years before that Wizard did rank Flash in at 5 behind Superman and WW for this reason


http://www.silver-surfer.us/Top10list/Top10List.htm
VS. FLASH: Yeah, the Flash is faster, but Supes ain't no slouch in the speed department, either, giving Wally only slight edge. Plus, like WW, Supes can take anything the Flash can dish out and eventually land a knock-out blow.

I have a bias in this fight since I love Flash a heck of a lot more than Superman but in another arena I can't see Flash winning this. Flash is a favorite of mine and I actually dislike what DC has done with the Superman character but I will be fair to Superman's strengths and he could easily win this outside CBR.
So if I've a bias against anyone its Superman but I'm arguing in favor of him, strange that? Under another Battle system Superman has a great chance to stomp this. Most of the Flash family will die under any other circumstances, they are too weak and too mortal. CBR could come up with a more accurate system by going say with mid-showings and brushing off high and low as the PIS but we would spend most of the day arguing what counts as a mid-showing and the battles would rage for 20 or more pages without being resolved.

What is wrong with the CBR system IMO

1
It ignores the "In-Character" stuff. The real character material as in Wally is a powerful speedster but not a genius fighter, he's not a leader, he trips up he makes mistakes. "In-Character" as in Silver Surfer is a pacifist, when was the last time you seen Surfer just turn somebody into dust, it is very rare. It takes a hell of a lot to provoke Surfer but in CBR he's always the heartless terminator. "In-Character" as in Superman comes with that boyscout attitude, I've never really see him just go all out and blitz a common crook and heat vision him in a massacre.
90% of the time this character business doesn't matter because Surfer and Superman are so powerful they are going to win their fights regardless of being "In-Character" or not.
But what is wrong is there are times this character stuff really matters yet CBR ignores it.
there are many times CBR is not debating Superman vs JoeCivilian
its debating a souless killing machine with supermans powers vs JoeCivilian
2
The CBR system ignores weakness, for example we know Superman has a weakness to kryptonite and magic. So logically Doctor Fate, Dr Strange, Zatanna and classic Strange all have a chance to stomp Superman. Not under CBR rules, Superman's weakness to magic or weakness to say telepathy are easily dismissed when you just focus on Superman as a speedblitzer. Superman even beats Classic Strange with auto-shielding. Superman can blitz the shields of Doc Strange from all sides at different angles until they finally drop. Strange gets owned, a difficult fight for Superman but one he can still win.
Flash again the CBR system stacks the deck in favor of speedblitzer like Flash. His weakness is ignored, his mortality, his average intelligence and the extremely low durability of Flash. A durability lower than Batman or almost at zero. None of this matters, under CBR rules Flash will just blitz the hell out of Superman for a win. Here there is no second for a breather just one high end feat after another. This is why an argument for Wally's weakness is easily dismissed, low end feats matter not, its high end that's important at rumbles.

I like the CBR system but this is one of the times the system is way, way off the mark. CBR battle system has flaws but there are far worse battle systems out there and IMO its still the best way to get these battles resolved

Under CBR
Wally stomps
Superman dies

[master of read]

Flash wins Superman dies

He will be all over Superman blitzing him before Superman can even think of doing anything. Same outcome with just about any other member of the Flash family. That's how it works in here but IMO its most probably an extremely false outcome
Maybe I should start another thread for this but here goes

Flash wins it, that's the way it goes under CBR rules, you play by the high-feat rules on this forum and that's why Flash takes it. I've seen many websites do these versus matches across the net and IMO this is still the best one, it has the highest percentage of accurate outcomes and it gets fights resolved quick rather than have them drag on for 20 pages. 90% of the time CBR gets the battles correct, but the battle system is not perfect some of the time CBR outcomes are way, way off. This is one of those fights which is a false outcome..I understand the frustration because I have seen some ridiculous match ups with ridiculous outcomes here.

Using high end feats means the deck always gets stacked in favor of the blitzers, Flash actually has a shot against Darkseid and Galactus. Yes as ridiculous as that sounds Flash has a chance to take down Galactus especially a Galactus who is tired and hungry. Under CBR rules the Flash can be all over the mega-hitters in a mili-second hitting them with Mass punches and maybe scoring a BFR for the win. Under the CBR system a character who doesn't survive with a body or doesn't have insane speed can be taken with a blitz, just about anyone CAN be speed-blitzed

That's one of the problems with the CBR battle system, high showings turns the speedsters into Gods. I like the CBR battle system but it is not fact, under any other system Superman has a very good chance to stomp Flash. Under another battle system Wonder Woman has a real chance, Wizard did a top 10 heroes and Flash didn't even make the top 10. Some years before that Wizard did rank Flash in at 5 behind Superman and WW for this reason

I have a bias in this fight since I love Flash a heck of a lot more than Superman but in another arena I can't see Flash winning this. Flash is a favorite of mine and I actually dislike what DC has done with the Superman character but I will be fair to Superman's strengths and he could easily win this outside CBR.
So if I've a bias against anyone its Superman but I'm arguing in favor of him, strange that? Under another Battle system Superman has a great chance to stomp this. Most of the Flash family will die under any other circumstances, they are too weak and too mortal. CBR could come up with a more accurate system by going say with mid-showings and brushing off high and low as the PIS but we would spend most of the day arguing what counts as a mid-showing and the battles would rage for 20 or more pages without being resolved.

What is wrong with the CBR system IMO

1
It ignores the "In-Character" stuff. The real character material as in Wally is a powerful speedster but not a genius fighter, he's not a leader, he trips up he makes mistakes. "In-Character" as in Silver Surfer is a pacifist, when was the last time you seen Surfer just turn somebody into dust, it is very rare. It takes a hell of a lot to provoke Surfer but in CBR he's always the heartless terminator. "In-Character" as in Superman comes with that boyscout attitude, I've never really see him just go all out and blitz a common crook and heat vision him in a massacre.
90% of the time this character business doesn't matter because Surfer and Superman are so powerful they are going to win their fights regardless of being "In-Character" or not.
But what is wrong is there are times this character stuff really matters yet CBR ignores it.
there are many times CBR is not debating Superman vs JoeCivilian
its debating a souless killing machine with supermans powers vs JoeCivilian
2
The CBR system ignores weakness, for example we know Superman has a weakness to kryptonite and magic. So logically Doctor Fate, Dr Strange, Zatanna and classic Strange all have a chance to stomp Superman. Not under CBR rules, Superman's weakness to magic or weakness to say telepathy are easily dismissed when you just focus on Superman as a speedblitzer. Superman even beats Classic Strange with auto-shielding. Superman can blitz the shields of Doc Strange from all sides at different angles until they finally drop. Strange gets owned, a difficult fight for Superman but one he can still win.
Flash again the CBR system stacks the deck in favor of speedblitzer like Flash. His weakness is ignored, his mortality, his average intelligence and the extremely low durability of Flash. A durability lower than Batman or almost at zero. None of this matters, under CBR rules Flash will just blitz the hell out of Superman for a win. Here there is no second for a breather just one high end feat after another. This is why an argument for Wally's weakness is easily dismissed, low end feats matter not, its high end that's important at rumbles.

I like the CBR system but this is one of the times the system is way, way off the mark. CBR battle system has flaws but there are far worse battle systems out there and IMO its still the best way to get these battles resolved

Under CBR
Wally stomps
Superman dies

you really need to stop doing this. its a easy way to get banned.

[Pendaran]

Yes as ridiculous as that sounds Flash has a chance to take down Galactus especially a Galactus who is tired and hungry.

Why when mutliple people have explained that no, that's not how it works here, do you keep making things up to say that it does?


The CBR system

The one you're completely making up and telling us we use sure does.


I like the CBR system but this is one of the times the system is way, way off the mark.

By like I assume you mean "I like to complain about this board" and by one of the times you mean "repeatedly" and by repeatedly I assume you mean "within hours of one thread to another".


CBR could come up with a more accurate system by going say with mid-showings and brushing off high and low as the PIS but we would spend most of the day arguing what counts as a mid-showing and the battles would rage for 20 or more pages without being resolved.


You've already demonstrated your system is "completely ignore the comics showing something different than what I am saying will happen." in any number of threads now.

I'll ask you again, so, Wonder Woman, how was she doing when Zoom fought the entire JLA? Did she need Hal Jordan to save her life or not?


Flash again the CBR system stacks the deck in favor of speedblitzer like Flash. His weakness is ignored, his mortality, his average intelligence and the extremely low durability of Flash.

Would you prefer we ignored.. his speed, his striking power, his variety of exotic powers that he's shown and used repeatedly and say we won't use them so that you can stop doing nothing but posting on this board to complain about it?


Flash actually has a shot against Darkseid and Galactus.

Sadly, as we go by looking at feats here to determine strength of powers in use, Flash has no credible feats that would let him even harm Galactus in any significant way.

But if you would like to go on making up that we don't, well, you have for numerous threads now, so I guess that's what you're going to keep doing.

Do you understand the fallacy in having to wildly exaggerate what someone else says, so that you don't actually have to argue with the points they make? I'd think you understand it great, considering we're right here again.


Under the CBR system a character who doesn't survive with no body or doesn't have insane speed can be taken with a blitz, just about anyone CAN be speed-blitzed

Mmmno, we also tend to note that anyone with sufficiently high durability can tank one depending on how hard the other person hits.

[master of read]

Why when mutliple people have explained that no, that's not how it works here, do you keep making things up to say that it does?

i mean seriously. we get it. you dont like how we do things here. i have a idea. there's the door.

giving me a headache.

[Sharpandpointies]

I have a bias in this fight since I love Flash a heck of a lot more than Superman but in another arena I can't see Flash winning this.

That's nice. This isn't another arena. It's a moot point, and not worth discussion in debates here. Feel free to bring it up in the Black Hole, but with the amount of times you bring it up here, it's starting to resemble trolling.

Edit - Actually, it's not really appropriate for the Black Hole, either.


What is wrong with the CBR system IMO -

My reply to this is simple - go elsewhere.

No, seriously. If you plan on bringing up what is wrong with the CBR Rumbles system every second or third time you enter a thread, feel free to leave. It's not going to change. The rules are here to stay. Complaining about the rules over and over again, trying to point out what is 'wrong' with them, is trolling, especially when (as has been pointed out) your view of the rules and who beats who in Rumbles is incorrect/grossly exaggerated.

Saying that you like the place and it's a good system as an afterthought does not negate this.

People are here to debate the fights, here. Not how they would go on other boards. And certainly not the rules.

Stop posting gripes about the Rumbles Rules. Stop posting comments like 'on any other board XYZ would win'. Stop posting incorrect, disparaging statements like "Flash actually has a shot against...Galactus."

If you just can't bring yourself to do that, I suggest you take yourself elsewhere where you're more comfortable with how they run things.

[Becoming An Anthropologist]

Oh. I didn't read any of the post, but I'd say If the Superman has the chance to attack in 'certain ways' before dying he could win. If not, Wally West Flash hits him with a bajillion punches, each of which individual does little more then stagger supes, but when piled together knocks him out. Flash could also probably do other things: maybe speed steal, speed-force dump, and vibrating.
Although in the last case Supes has shown he can vibrate his molecules as well.

[Radioactive Zombie]

He better not bring back a raiding party...

[Powerboy]

Doing a necro bump today

I think Flash is powerful but got a little hyped up after he beat Prime, this guy was powerful but he had a tonne of mental issues. Scared of the dark, scared of the flashers, a stutter, and he got so emo he once carved a big "S" on his chest.
The victory over little Prime is a very shallow one since Prime is already a blubbering emotional mess. The anti-Monitor stuff was PIS, it shouldn't have happened

Real Superman will defeat Flash

As Flash is trying his IMP punch or blitzes of punches Superman goes "burn" and burns up the arena to a horrible exploding inferno. Flash because he has no durability drops like a rag doll.

Superman is the victor

I get the feeling you're now just intentionally picking a 'winner' you know wouldn't win. Who is this "real" Superman? One that can react before the Flash nails him?

[Guy1]

Quick question on Flash's durability, is he able to take shots from other speedsters like Zoom?

[Whirlwind Dinamo]

Quick question on Flash's durability, is he able to take shots from other speedsters like Zoom?

Flash family members are protected by this aura, it prevents them from burning up in a ball of friction as they hit speed. Zoom and Flash have this aura. In some cases both of them could be pounding hundreds of punches on each other and it would just be like two hyper kids pounding each other during a pillow fight. It takes a long time for something to really happen when they both got the speed feats to match each other and they both got the auras. A real durability test would be Superman standing still and taking the best shot from Flash, Superman taking an Infinite Mass Punch and vice versa Flash taking a shot from Supes. If Flash were to stand still and allow a Superman to hit him straight in the face I'm pretty sure you would find Flash dying during such a durability test, RIP

When Flash hits full speed his durability is amped by his speed aura but its nothing compared to the durability of Supes, a guy who can take a full on blast of the Omega Effect

[Siriel]

Hunter Zolomon(Zoom) didn't have that aura,AFAIK, nor did he need it.

[Captain Morgan]

Hunter Zolomon(Zoom) didn't have that aura,AFAIK, nor did he need it.

Considering that Flash and Zoom have done stuff to each other like punch each other across the country, I think we can disregard Whirlwind's idea (more so than we disregard everything else he says.)

Seriously, Flash has been hit by super strong bricks and lived.

[Powerboy]

Flash wins Superman dies

He will be all over Superman blitzing him before Superman can even think of doing anything. Same outcome with just about any other member of the Flash family. That's how it works in here but IMO its most probably an extremely false outcome
Maybe I should start another thread for this but here goes


I think its a very realistic outcome in a fight where they both willingly enter the fight and go all-out or even just use their powers. The Flash is a lot faster. Even in character, he won't get hit.



Flash wins it, that's the way it goes under CBR rules, you play by the high-feat rules on this forum and that's why Flash takes it. I've seen many websites do these versus matches across the net and IMO this is still the best one, it has the highest percentage of accurate outcomes and it gets fights resolved quick rather than have them drag on for 20 pages. 90% of the time CBR gets the battles correct, but the battle system is not perfect some of the time CBR outcomes are way, way off. This is one of those fights which is a false outcome..I understand the frustration because I have seen some ridiculous match ups with ridiculous outcomes here.


I wouldn't say that's never happened. Human beings, we are imperfect creatures. :eek: But this isn't one of them. What I have found with those 20 pages and nothing gets resolved stuff is that its 20 pages of ignoring feats and "This character wins because I like him better" or that character loses because "I don't like him/ its a woman/ I'll put this character's best feats against that character's worst feats or at least high-average/ low-average all on the pretext of average showings".

Your 'ridiculous outcome' seems to mean, "If the Flash held back and didn't hit as fast as he could so Superman got the first shot in and, furthermore, if the Flash then didn't even use his speed to avoid the attack and if the Flash didn't use the powers he could use right away but Superman did use all his powers right away and, again, the Flash didn't use his speed to avoid them and if we ignore the vast difference that has been often displayed between their current speeds and cherry pick the showings we want, Superman would win and any other result is ridiculous.

Sure there might be a comic story where, after the vast differences are shown again and again, there's a story where Superman just hits him anyway. There are stories where a statue named Wonder Woman can suddenly hit Zoom or, a more extreme example, Spider-Man punching out Firelord. Oh since we are adding little notes at the end, I like Wonder Woman and prefer not to see her lose.



Using high end feats means the deck always gets stacked in favor of the blitzers, Flash actually has a shot against Darkseid and Galactus. Yes as ridiculous as that sounds Flash has a chance to take down Galactus especially a Galactus who is tired and hungry. Under CBR rules the Flash can be all over the mega-hitters in a mili-second hitting them with Mass punches and maybe scoring a BFR for the win. Under the CBR system a character who doesn't survive with no body or doesn't have insane speed can be taken with a blitz, just about anyone CAN be speed-blitzed


Oooookay, it took about every hero in the entire Marvel Universe combined to defeat a starving, desperate Galactus and that was with Dr. Strange, Thor I believe and Reed Richards all there. The Flash is not beating Galactus. Can't say with Darkseid as I'm not up on current Darkseid.

But what it comes down to is if a vastly faster character who has the offense to get by his opponent's durability doesn't hold back or just stand there and let himself be hit, he wins.



That's one of the problems with the CBR battle system, high showings turns the speedsters into Gods. I like the CBR battle system but it is not fact, under any other system Superman has a very good chance to stomp Flash. Under another battle system Wonder Woman has a real chance, Wizard did a top 10 heroes and Flash didn't even make the top 10. Some years before that Wizard did rank Flash in at 5 behind Superman and WW for this reason


But this is the CBR system and I agree with you about one thing: its the best one for getting results consistent with actual power levels of the characters. It doesn't make speedsters gods but it does make them hard to beat if the opponent isn't fast enough to avoid them and the speedster can do harm. Yes there are systems under which Superman would have a chance in this fight, etc. Every last one of them involves playing down the Flash's abilities but not Superman's. Because if you "average" both of their showings, the Flash is still hellaciously faster.



I have a bias in this fight since I love Flash a heck of a lot more than Superman but in another arena I can't see Flash winning this. Flash is a favorite of mine and I actually dislike what DC has done with the Superman character but I will be fair to Superman's strengths and he could easily win this outside CBR.
So if I've a bias against anyone its Superman but I'm arguing in favor of him, strange that? Under another Battle system Superman has a great chance to stomp this. Most of the Flash family will die under any other circumstances, they are too weak and too mortal. CBR could come up with a more accurate system by going say with mid-showings and brushing off high and low as the PIS but we would spend most of the day arguing what counts as a mid-showing and the battles would rage for 20 or more pages without being resolved.


So that's we should go with mid level showings but no we shouldn't?

I've seen places that go mid-level They don't. Each person in the debate selectively goes mid level. Not to say that there aren't good posters but people high-ball and low-ball like crazy.



What is wrong with the CBR system IMO

1
It ignores the "In-Character" stuff. The real character material as in Wally is a powerful speedster but not a genius fighter, he's not a leader, he trips up he makes mistakes. "In-Character" as in Silver Surfer is a pacifist, when was the last time you seen Surfer just turn somebody into dust, it is very rare. It takes a hell of a lot to provoke Surfer but in CBR he's always the heartless terminator. "In-Character" as in Superman comes with that boyscout attitude, I've never really see him just go all out and blitz a common crook and heat vision him in a massacre.
90% of the time this character business doesn't matter because Surfer and Superman are so powerful they are going to win their fights regardless of being "In-Character" or not.
But what is wrong is there are times this character stuff really matters yet CBR ignores it.
there are many times CBR is not debating Superman vs JoeCivilian
its debating a souless killing machine with supermans powers vs JoeCivilian


I said that once myself. But here's the thing. There are lots of characters who could beat Superman in a comic because he held back. Spider-Man loses fights because he held back and his opponent didn't. We all know that. We just bypass the "any result you care to write" part and get to "If they really went at each other..." If the soulless killing machine things bothers you, consider this: Comic characters all seem to have this extra power, they can tell exactly how hard they can get away with hitting any opponent without killing them. Debris and toppling buildings from their fights never seem to kill anybody. So for 'bloodlust' just substitute "They know exactly how hard to hit to win without killing".



2
The CBR system ignores weakness, for example we know Superman has a weakness to kryptonite and magic. So logically Doctor Fate, Dr Strange, Zatanna and classic Strange all have a chance to stomp Superman. Not under CBR rules, Superman's weakness to magic or weakness to say telepathy are easily dismissed when you just focus on Superman as a speedblitzer. Superman even beats Classic Strange with auto-shielding. Superman can blitz the shields of Doc Strange from all sides at different angles until they finally drop. Strange gets owned, a difficult fight for Superman but one he can still win.
Flash again the CBR system stacks the deck in favor of speedblitzer like Flash. His weakness is ignored, his mortality, his average intelligence and the extremely low durability of Flash. A durability lower than Batman or almost at zero. None of this matters, under CBR rules Flash will just blitz the hell out of Superman for a win. Here there is no second for a breather just one high end feat after another. This is why an argument for Wally's weakness is easily dismissed, low end feats matter not, its high end that's important at rumbles.


Well, in an arena fight where the goal is to see who would win if neither was holding back more than the other, yes. But in this case, Wally's weakness that its over if Superman hits him works great if the setup is that Superman attacks by surprise when Wally isn't expecting an attack and isn't even looking so he cannot even reflexively avoid the hit. Someone described this as the "Okay at the start of the fight, the Black Panther has his vibranium armor and all his gadgets that he's ever had and fight takes place in his country with all his fortress's weapons at his command but Batman doesn't have his utility belt and is tied to a stake" scenario.



I like the CBR system but this is one of the times the system is way, way off the mark. CBR battle system has flaws but there are far worse battle systems out there and IMO its still the best way to get these battles resolved

Under CBR
Wally stomps
Superman dies

Its only flaw in this case is it doesn't fudge the power levels.

[Mike Smith]

How does the opening 'bell' for rumbles work, anyway. May we have an old timey gun to start things off?

Perhaps Superman could then relapse to his PC days and do something dirty, like cheat with his superhearing to hear the grinding gears for the gun and anticipate when to start. He'll have the jump before Flash even knows the battle can begin. That way he can anticipate the millions of hits he's getting ready to receive (or maybe even get off at least one shot!).

Oh, and the Flash isn't allowed to move.

[Powerboy]

How does the opening 'bell' for rumbles work, anyway. May we have an old timey gun to start things off?

Perhaps Superman could then relapse to his PC days and do something dirty, like cheat with his superhearing to hear the grinding gears for the gun and anticipate when to start. He'll have the jump before Flash even knows the battle can begin. That way he can anticipate the millions of hits he's getting ready to receive (or maybe even get off at least one shot!).

Oh, and the Flash isn't allowed to move.

Well, yes, as we all know sound moves at the speed of sound. In fact, the speed of sound was named for sound. Therefore since Superman has that cheat ignore the Laws of Physics hearing he can hear the bell and react before the sound of the bell has reached the Flash's ears.

Um, how does the Flash carry on conversations at superspeed and seem able to hear sounds that couldn't have reached him yet, you ask? Hasn't this thread made it clear that we are selectively invoking our 'facts'?

[Sharpandpointies]

Guys (and that's everyone), the entire business involving 'discussion' of rules has been covered. It's over. Let's let it go, and not start something new, please.

[The MunchKING]

How does the opening 'bell' for rumbles work, anyway. May we have an old timey gun to start things off?

Maybe. I always pictured either a ref in the middle doing the whole "Come out fighting" routine and then running like hell, or those boxing bells. :biggrin:

[The MunchKING]

Well, yes, as we all know sound moves at the speed of sound. In fact, the speed of sound was named for sound. Therefore since Superman has that cheat ignore the Laws of Physics hearing he can hear the bell and react before the sound of the bell has reached the Flash's ears.

Um, how does the Flash carry on conversations at superspeed and seem able to hear sounds that couldn't have reached him yet, you ask? Hasn't this thread made it clear that we are selectively invoking our 'facts'?

I dunno about Flash, but Impulse said he had to slow down to below Lightspeed to hear anyone who wasn't using the Speed Force to keep up with him.

[Mike Smith]

Well, yes, as we all know sound moves at the speed of sound. In fact, the speed of sound was named for sound. Therefore since Superman has that cheat ignore the Laws of Physics hearing he can hear the bell and react before the sound of the bell has reached the Flash's ears.

Um, how does the Flash carry on conversations at superspeed and seem able to hear sounds that couldn't have reached him yet, you ask? Hasn't this thread made it clear that we are selectively invoking our 'facts'?

That's clearly a result of the Speedforce shenanigans, a force which Flash may not have time to access if we grant Superman the benefit of the match starting with an old timey gunshot (since Superman can hear stuff from space and stopping near point blank bullets after he hears them being shot, starting on the other side of the globe).

One cannot argue with superscience mixed with deck stacking, my friend.

[Sharpandpointies]

Again, the discussion regarding board rules and regs is over. Finis, completé, all that stuff.

Pray continue with Superman versus Flash. For myself, I figure Flash doesn't have to 'hear' the bell anyway. He just needs to watch Clark.

[Powerboy]

That's clearly a result of the Speedforce shenanigans, a force which Flash may not have time to access if we grant Superman the benefit of the match starting with an old timey gunshot (since Superman can hear stuff from space and stopping near point blank bullets after he hears them being shot, starting on the other side of the globe).

One cannot argue with superscience mixed with deck stacking, my friend.

Its a little known fact that when Barry Allen first met Wally West, he thought to himself, "The Speedforce is strong in this one."

He later said "The speedforce is what gives a Flash his power" and later still...

But remember, Superman is an ALIEN. He has ALIEN powers. He has Alien hearing so he hears the bell before it rings and alien vision so he sees the bell start to move. There are, of course, severe penalties for jumping the bell in Khazan but Superman has alien invulnerability and fears naught.

Edit: OOPS. Disregard. Rules arguments over and just when I was warming up. :(

[Mike Smith]

Its a little known fact that when Barry Allen first met Wally West, he thought to himself, "The Speedforce is strong in this one."

He later said "The speedforce is what gives a Flash his power" and later still...

But remember, Superman is an ALIEN. He has ALIEN powers. He has Alien hearing so he hears the bell before it rings and alien vision so he sees the bell start to move. There are, of course, severe penalties for jumping the bell in Khazan but Superman has alien invulnerability and fears naught.

Edit: OOPS. Disregard. Rules arguments over and just when I was warming up. :(

Haha, I got mine up before seeing Sharp's post. But yeah, there is no way for Superman to win this rumble without some standard PIS/CIS.

[Powerboy]

Haha, I got mine up before seeing Sharp's post. But yeah, there is no way for Superman to win this rumble without some standard PIS/CIS.

I actually sat and really tried to think of some way Superman could win this without resorting to something that a mod would come in and say, "Okay, the joke's over." But, outside of making this PC Superman vs. Speedforce Wally, I can't think of anything legitimate that doesn't involve PIS.

[Surtur]

I think someone said if Superman(or someone else) can fly high enough or something flash can't win, which is actually false since he can speed-steal from a distance. He actually stole speed from nearly everyone on the planet before.

[Powerboy]

I think someone said if Superman(or someone else) can fly high enough or something flash can't win, which is actually false since he can speed-steal from a distance. He actually stole speed from nearly everyone on the planet before.

If this was a match in an environment and each contestant got to choose his starting position and Superman chose a mile in the air and then blanketed the area with heat vision, the Flash would still be out of there before it hit him. If he can speed steal at that range, its still over. Maybe if Superman chose orbit as his starting position, then it would be an endless stalemate or he waits until the Flash finally has to sleep. Though given the Flash's speed, he goes to the far side of the planet, gets in a nap and is up before Superman can get there to attack. :eek:

[Surtur]

If this was a match in an environment and each contestant got to choose his starting position and Superman chose a mile in the air and then blanketed the area with heat vision, the Flash would still be out of there before it hit him. If he can speed steal at that range, its still over. Maybe if Superman chose orbit as his starting position, then it would be an endless stalemate or he waits until the Flash finally has to sleep. Though given the Flash's speed, he goes to the far side of the planet, gets in a nap and is up before Superman can get there to attack. :eek:

Well yeah, I'd assume he'd need to be in space to be out of range for the speedsteal. He could probably push the moon into Earth's atmosphere, that might mess up a lot of stuff. In the confusion he could then dig down to the planets core and destroy it..then wait for the planet to explode...it's possible..maybe.

[Pendaran]

To be fair, which, ugh, the Flash only did the planetary speed steal when it was a voluntary thing, and he was connected to it through a fourth dimensional communicator/device. It was.. um.. special circumstances, basically.

[Surtur]

To be fair, which, ugh, the Flash only did the planetary speed steal when it was a voluntary thing, and he was connected to it through a fourth dimensional communicator/device. It was.. um.. special circumstances, basically.

Ah I see, so what's his normal range?

[Radioactive Zombie]

I think someone said if Superman(or someone else) can fly high enough or something flash can't win, which is actually false since he can speed-steal from a distance. He actually stole speed from nearly everyone on the planet before.

He could stir up a tornado, but it won't affect Supes.

[Pendaran]

Ah I see, so what's his normal range?

I couldn't give you an exact, but most of the times he has done it, he's been in fairly close to the person/thing.