This Week's BOP (SPOILER WARNING!)

[Gail Simone]

It's been a long time coming, and it may make you look at some of our past issues a little differently.

Next arc...we see what comes NEXT.

Gail

[TCJohnson]

Just read it during lunch.

Did not see that coming at all.

[Static-Pulse]

Did not see that coming at all.Barbara wakes up from a nightmare, and we see Dick Grayson sitting up in bed next to her, asking what's wrong? :)

...or mebbe you could spoil a little for those of us an hour away from a comic shop?

[TCJohnson]

Not going to spoil anything...


...but Gail...I am just curious how you learned about how you came up with this idea? How did you learn about how teachers deal with troubled students?

[Static-Pulse]

Not going to spoil anything...Let it be known far and wide that TCJohnson does not, nor ever will, suck. :)

[JoshuaB]

Wow, interesting ending....I have to go back and read the last few issues again.....can't wait till next issue!

Oh, but Gail, whatever happened to Savant?

[Ian Boothby]

Great issue. The twist was the kind I love, one that isn't tacked on for shock but defines and shakes up what the book is about. Damn you write well.

[TCJohnson]

Sorry, I am just always curious about the creative process. I mean, did you hear about this technique and decide to apply it to the BoP characters? Or were the characters moving in this direction and then you learn about this technique? Sorry if I am asking dumb questions

[JoshuaB]

And is this something that you've been planning since you started on the title, or did this develop out of War Games?

Feeling so bad for Helena right now..... :(

[JoshuaB]

Re-reading the last few months of issues, it really does make sense, now, why a lot of the events went on. In Between Dark and Dawn, Oracle sent Huntress to that "commune" to test her spirit, and make her question her loss of faith. So all along Barbara had a plan?


Following that, during the first few issues of your run, Canary was sent in to bust Savant....if Barbara is trying to "heal" her superheroines, was that meant to give Canary a sort of vengeance from when she was tortured back in her Green Arrow days?

If all that is true, then that also makes me worry about Barbara, possibly trying to fix everyone else's problems because she is avoiding here own (possession and after-effects of bonding with Brainiac, losing the clock tower, and, I assume, a more distant relationship with her dad?). Hopefully they can all come back together and help each other again.

[steeler80]

The whole "troubled student" angle really took me by surprise as well. And that's embarrassing seeing as how I work in an alternative school. We don't deal with the really troubled kids but we do see our share of kids with problems and use the techniques described.

So to summarize, I feel really stupid and think you're (Gail) really smart. ;)

[mgs]

wait! i did not read it yet, yet, i'm drawn to a gs post like a moth to the flame!

*flies through thread*

[shrike]

Wow.

In an obtuse way, I totally saw that coming.

Go fig.

Still, great issue, as usual.

And after seeing Canary look completely fabulous, I'm convinced now more than ever she shouldn't ditch her current bodysuit, although I could live with the return of the boots and yellow-less jacket.

[Kevinroc]

Canary has Superman's number on her cell? That was great. Although a little strange that the name was listed as "Superman" instead of "Clark". Of course if the name was listed as "Clark", the cop would have had no reason to back off. I still thought that little scene was very cute.

The stuff with Rose/ Thorn in the OR was a little bloodier than I was expecting.

The whole chase sequence was cool.

The ending surprised me. Looking back, I can see you building up to this for awhile but it still surprised me as I read it.

[Astonishing X-Fan]

Wow, what a great issue. You rock, Gail.

[Gail Simone]

And is this something that you've been planning since you started on the title, or did this develop out of War Games?

Feeling so bad for Helena right now..... :(


I think if you go back, you'll see that this pre-dates any crossovers. It's not part of any tie-ins. I don't want to say more at this point, obviously.

And TC, yes, I'm familiar with teachers (my sister is one, and many clients) and very familiar with accepted methods to deal with troubled kids in a kind and caring manner.

Best,

Gail

[WhiteRose]

I did NOT see that Huntress thing coming. In retrospect, it should've been kinda obvious. Pfffrt, hindsight is always 20-20. I dun wanna wait another month to find out what happens. And Barbara! With the Brainiac scar! Why must you torment me so!?

But I'll admit, after reading the last couple of issues I went out and bought most of the Rose and Thorn mini-series from last year. Something about redheads and split personalities and wonderful little twisted everythings appeal to me so. So live knowing you've sent me into debt, Gail. :P

[Pixies Chick]

It's a fantastic issue. Guess the one thing that Barbara didn't consider is that being outside of your normal environment also allows you to do things that you might otherwise consider out-of-bounds. Without Bats, Barbara is certainly testing limits. Wonder if she'd be more cautious if Nightwing were still around.

I think the most egregious abuse of power was how Barbara used these communities for her psych-op. They become things, and nobody should be treated like a tool. Taking Helena out of her comfort zone freed her up to reflect on revenge-seeking, but it's the same lack of context that makes that possible, that makes it dangerous. Manipulating people's heads to get them to act the way you want them to is wrong. She manufactured a crisis (superhero murderers? c'mon) to drum up passion for her mission. But what about the people who are left to clean up the messes they made? It's like they don't even exist. Nope, they're going on vacation to celebrate the great job they did.

Poor Helena. Think she'll have trust issues after this?

[MacQuarrie]

Okay, one thing I don't understand...

Why did Helena react so negatively when she figured out what Babs was doing? I've never heard of a troubled kid complaining about being helped. They're usually quite grateful for the changes, and frequently go on to mentor others in the same way they were mentored. Surely Helena would recognize that? Surely her own students have thanked her for helping them to overcome their situations just the way Babs helped her?

Did the kid in "Finding Forrester" resent the old guy for "manipulating" him? Do Jaime Escalante's students lash out at his "manipulation" in "Stand and Deliver"? Does Ralph Macchio attack Mr. Miyagi for that whole "wax on, wax off" con job?

For that matter, her accusation that Babs is "just like Batman" is patently false. Batman manipulates people to achieve his own goals, and usually at the expense of the person being manipulated. He uses them. The so-called "manipulation" that Babs is accused of is entirely for the benefit of the person; the betterment of the person is the entire goal. If that is a bad thing for Babs to do to Helena, why is it okay for Helena to do it to her students?

I have to assume that Helena's entire reaction is due to anger at herself for not catching on sooner to what Babs was doing, not out of resentment that she did it. Or perhaps it's an ego thing; nobody wants to admit their weaknesses or vulnerabilities, and Helena is mostly angry at herself for having been so easy to figure out.

But wouldn't Dinah's reaction to "it's therapy for broken superheroines" have been "So? How is that a bad thing?"

I hope when Helena calms down and takes a good look at herself, she will turn up with the much-owed apology, because I don't think Barbara did anything wrong at all.

[TCJohnson]

Okay, one thing I don't understand...

Why did Helena react so negatively when she figured out what Babs was doing? I've never heard of a troubled kid complaining about being helped. They're usually quite grateful for the changes, and frequently go on to mentor others in the same way they were mentored. Surely Helena would recognize that? Surely her own students have thanked her for helping them to overcome their situations just the way Babs helped her?

Yes, but most troubled kids don't realize what is being donw with them. It is not like the teachers tell the kids, "Ok, we are seperating you from your friends now, and putting you in a strange environment. There you go, now let's bribe you with gifts and friendship!" The process only works really if the kids don't realize what is going on while it happens or they will likely rebel. They could look back and maybe see what happened and then thank the teachers, but not while they are having the problems.

Which is the whole thing with Huntress: Babs was treating Huntress like a child, like a troubled child. Huntress has no idea how much of the friendship with Babs and Dinah is real and how much was just a part of the manipulation. Barbara was dishonest with Helena about what was going on. Instead of sending her out to fight bad guys, Barbara was manipulating her into becoming the person Barbara wanted her to be. That could easily be seen as a major violation of trust besides the fact that Barbara was treating her like a child.

If I had a problem and my friends confronted me with it, or if I got to them asking for help, that would be one thing. If they tried to manipulate me into a type of person they would want to be friends with, I would be pissed and every thing they do from that point on, I would be wondering if they were manipulating me again or not.

[TCJohnson]

ANother way to put it -

-Oracle was dishonest. She was saying she was sending Huntress on these missions for one reason when she was sending them on these missions for another.

-Oracle was dishonest because she did not trust Huntress to be adult enough to be treated honestly.

-Oracle was never going to admit to the manipulation or confront Hutress about it. She never did when she did it to Canary

-Which means Huntress will always wonder if Oracle is manipulating her in the future...if even the friendship is real or if Oracle is just using her.

[Static-Pulse]

I've not read #80 yet -- stupid 0day scanners are slow this week -- so I don't know the whole setup...

If I had a problem and my friends confronted me with it, or if I got to them asking for help, that would be one thing.Except confronting Helena doesn't work. How many times has Nightwing has tried being friendly and firm, explaining that (a) he wants to help her, (b) thinks of her as an equal, and (c) she needs to change tactics? How many times has it worked?

How many times has Batman offered his help to Helena? Vouched for her? Praised her? How many times has it worked? He nominated her for the freakin' JLA, said she was good enough to work with the best, and she still resents him.

The Question freakin' abducted her and had her train with Richard Dragon for about three months to teach her to slow down, and after two nights in Gotham she was back to her old self. Granted, there were circumstances beyond her control, and it was a Devin Grayson story, but the whole Bat-brood and the Question were there to help her, all she had to do was say, "Someone's threatening my life, I need help," and they would have jumped to her aid -- not rescue, since she obviously didn't need rescuing. Instead, she switch to mafia tactics and had her "father" killed.

Again, I haven't read #80, I've only poked around forums, but I get the impression that Barbara is being villified for trying to help Helena in the only way left at her disposal -- short of asking Dinah to get Zatanna to mind wipe her. I'm anxious to get issue #80 to see if this is true, because if Barbara is being made out to be the bad guy in all this...

Well, I won't be surprised anyway.

[Static-Pulse]

-Oracle was never going to admit to the manipulation or confront Hutress about it. She never did when she did it to CanaryExcusmewhat? When the fuck has Barbara ever manipulated Dinah?

[TCJohnson]

I've not read #80 yet -- stupid 0day scanners are slow this week -- so I don't know the whole setup...

Except confronting Helena doesn't work. How many times has Nightwing has tried being friendly and firm, explaining that (a) he wants to help her, (b) thinks of her as an equal, and (c) she needs to change tactics? How many times has it worked?

How many times has Batman offered his help to Helena? Vouched for her? Praised her? How many times has it worked? He nominated her for the freakin' JLA, said she was good enough to work with the best, and she still resents him.

The Question freakin' abducted her and had her train with Richard Dragon for about three months to teach her to slow down, and after two nights in Gotham she was back to her old self. Granted, there were circumstances beyond her control, and it was a Devin Grayson story, but the whole Bat-brood and the Question were there to help her, all she had to do was say, "Someone's threatening my life, I need help," and they would have jumped to her aid -- not rescue, since she obviously didn't need rescuing. Instead, she switch to mafia tactics and had her "father" killed.

Again, I haven't read #80, I've only poked around forums, but I get the impression that Barbara is being villified for trying to help Helena in the only way left at her disposal -- short of asking Dinah to get Zatanna to mind wipe her. I'm anxious to get issue #80 to see if this is true, because if Barbara is being made out to be the bad guy in all this...

Well, I won't be surprised anyway.

That might be so but that is besides the point. You just made a good argument for Barbara's point of view (except that Barbara pulled the same stuff with Black Canary.) But from Helena's point of view what Barbara did was a major violation of trust. And she is right.

But this is not as black and white as Huntress is right and Barbara is wrong, or vice versa, or that Barbara is being villified. It is a question of if the ends justify the means. Barbara thinks they did, Huntress thinks they didin't.

Personally, I think they bother fucked up...Barbara was too manipulative for her own good (which is actually Gail's words) and it bit her in the ass, Huntress was not able to look at things objectively.

[TCJohnson]

Excusmewhat? When the fuck has Barbara ever manipulated Dinah?

That is the whole point of this. That is what Gail meant by, "It's been a long time coming, and it may make you look at some of our past issues a little differently."


Basically, how it went down is like this (And I am MAJORLY paraphrasing here....and sorry for the spoilers.)

Huntress: You know, dong these missions really made me see things in a whole new light.

Dinah: Yeah, I know what you mean. The first missions I did for Oracle made me see things in a whole new light. Before I started doing missions for Babs, I had a lot of trouble with men. But then Babs sent me against these really evil men, the worse of the worse, and that helped me get a new perspective.

Huntress: What a coincidence that our first missions for Babs gave us a different persepctive....except....there are never any coincidences with Oracle, is there?

And that is when she put it together. Barbara did the same thing to Black Canary when they first started working together, just Black Canary never realized it. Again, you could argue that it is for Black Canary's own good, but it also shows a manipulative streak in Babs behavior.

[Static-Pulse]

Barbara did the same thing to Black Canary when they first started working together, just Black Canary never realized it. Again, you could argue that it is for Black Canary's own good, but it also shows a manipulative streak in Babs behavior.Ever read the Birds of Prey mini-series "Manhunt?" Dinah was perfectly capable of going after womanizers on her own accord, even when Barbara advised her not to do so. Which mission, specifically, had Barbara sending Canary after a misogynist? Which issues?

Give me numbers. I have the entire run of Birds (with the exception of some of "Darkness Before the Dawn") sitting on my harddrive. Point me at the issue where Dinah was manipulated into chasing down someone who was a misogynist.

Edit: And I'm specifically thinking Dixon and Moore issues. Pointing at Gail's issues as proof that Barbara manipulated Dinah is only pointing out mischaracterization of them. I want old proof that shows this isn't a different set of characters that were introduced in issue #56.

[TCJohnson]

I don't have comic books in front of me, I am at work. I am just telling you what Gail wrote in this issue.

[TCJohnson]

You know, I don't even have that many back issues. I just recently started collecting this series. I am just telling you what Gail wrote. Want to yell at somebody, yell at her.

And I didn't say she was manipulated into hunting down somebody who was mysoginist. I am saying is that Oracle sent Black Canary after them to teach Black Canary a lesson. As Huntress put it, Oracle was purposely picking out villians that would mess with Black Canary's head.

[Static-Pulse]

You know, I don't even have that many back issues. I just recently started collecting this series. I am just telling you what Gail wrote. Want to yell at somebody, yell at her.I'm not yelling at you, that "show me the mission" line was directed at anyone who thinks that Oracle has been manipulating Dinah -- fans, editors, Gail Simone, or whoever. You have my sincerest apologies if that came across as a direct challenge. I'm sorry.

Edit: I shouldn't get irritated, none of this will matter come July when we learn that Barbara was being controlled by the Braniac/BBE techno-organic virus.

[Mia]

Except confronting Helena doesn't work. How many times has Nightwing has tried being friendly and firm, explaining that (a) he wants to help her, (b) thinks of her as an equal, and (c) she needs to change tactics? How many times has it worked?

How many times has Batman offered his help to Helena? Vouched for her? Praised her? How many times has it worked? He nominated her for the freakin' JLA, said she was good enough to work with the best, and she still resents him.

The Question freakin' abducted her and had her train with Richard Dragon for about three months to teach her to slow down, and after two nights in Gotham she was back to her old self. Granted, there were circumstances beyond her control, and it was a Devin Grayson story, but the whole Bat-brood and the Question were there to help her, all she had to do was say, "Someone's threatening my life, I need help," and they would have jumped to her aid -- not rescue, since she obviously didn't need rescuing. Instead, she switch to mafia tactics and had her "father" killed.



Most of the events you are referencing seem to come from Cry For Blood, which I would like to address. It was quite apparent why Huntress never went to Nightwing or Batman for help. Huntress is obviously from the "Once bitten twice shy" school of thought. When her cousin was shot (forgot his name) the first person that Batman blamed was her. It got her back up and she was reluctant to trust him and hence ask him for help. Also she and Batman have always had a rocky relationship. He's treated her like dirt from the get go. He manipulated and used her during NML. Did you really expect her to run to him for help? Also when Nightwing went to her to offer help. She reminded him that he did nothing for her during NML when Batman manipulated her. One of the reasons I never wanted to see Nightwing and her as a couple. Was that he stood around like an idiot while Batman humiliated her. He never once ran to her defense. And she should believe him for help then? Please.


I also believe that it was never just a matter of her going for help. Cassemento made no bones that he hated and despised her. If she went for help or got him arrested all he had to do was tell the mob that she was the Huntress. And her days would be numbered. And given what I have seen from the justice system. I think I too would be reluctant to put my life in the hands of the police. She grew up with the mob. She's more than aware of what they are capable of doing.

Did she make the right descion in that instance? I don't know. And I can't and won't judge. How would I react if I had a proverbial gun to my head? Life is not always black and white.

But what is pretty much clear from reading CFB and other books on the character. That Huntress (like Batman) refuses to be a victim of life. She knew that she either had to look after herself or run and hide. And "Tucking tail" and running was not something she planned on doing. Huntress is a fighter and that's why I admire her so much.
And that's why she's a hero to me.

[Static-Pulse]

Most of the events you are referencing seem to come from Cry For Blood, which I would like to address.I was also talking about the Huntress and Nighting mini-series as well as Nightwing #26-29. Both times he and Helena worked together, and they seemed to part on at least halfway-firendly terms each time. However, I got my timeline mixed up; I thought her being in Nightwing came after the "you're not Batgirl" debacle during NML. So, yeah, I'll partially cede my Nightwing defense.

(I don't think that Nightwing made the wrong decision, but I agree his decision to remain silent wouldn't garner any extra trust from Helena.)

When her cousin was shot (forgot his name) the first person that Batman blamed was her.He also offered to hide her from the police and mafia until he could find the killer. He gave her, via Robin, all the information about her family in the third part of the Cry for Blood mini. I'm not trying to make excuses, or put down Helena, but she did have options that could have been explored. She didn't even mention to the Question what was going on, if memory serves.

That Huntress (like Batman) refuses to be a victim of life. She knew that she either had to look after herself or run and hide.Agreed, and I don't think she did the wrong thing -- she lived, I'm of the opinion that surviving is generally the right decision. My point was simply to say that experience has shown Barbara that, given a confrontation, Helena won't back down or listen to someone else's position -- she did with Richard Dragon, but I don't think Barbara was privy to that information.

Edit: I just realized I'm trying to justify Barbara maniulating Huntress. Fuckdammit. My position is that Barbara doesn't manipulate her agents, not that she's justified in doing it.

[Mia]

Okay, one thing I don't understand...

Why did Helena react so negatively when she figured out what Babs was doing? I've never heard of a troubled kid complaining about being helped. They're usually quite grateful for the changes, and frequently go on to mentor others in the same way they were mentored. Surely Helena would recognize that? Surely her own students have thanked her for helping them to overcome their situations just the way Babs helped her?

Did the kid in "Finding Forrester" resent the old guy for "manipulating" him? Do Jaime Escalante's students lash out at his "manipulation" in "Stand and Deliver"? Does Ralph Macchio attack Mr. Miyagi for that whole "wax on, wax off" con job?

For that matter, her accusation that Babs is "just like Batman" is patently false. Batman manipulates people to achieve his own goals, and usually at the expense of the person being manipulated. He uses them. The so-called "manipulation" that Babs is accused of is entirely for the benefit of the person; the betterment of the person is the entire goal. If that is a bad thing for Babs to do to Helena, why is it okay for Helena to do it to her students?

I have to assume that Helena's entire reaction is due to anger at herself for not catching on sooner to what Babs was doing, not out of resentment that she did it. Or perhaps it's an ego thing; nobody wants to admit their weaknesses or vulnerabilities, and Helena is mostly angry at herself for having been so easy to figure out.

But wouldn't Dinah's reaction to "it's therapy for broken superheroines" have been "So? How is that a bad thing?"

I hope when Helena calms down and takes a good look at herself, she will turn up with the much-owed apology, because I don't think Barbara did anything wrong at all.

First of all Helena is hardly a child who needs to be helped. She has problems, sure much like everyone else. And being a good Catholic I am sure that she is well aware of her short comings. I don’t think, nor have I seen any evidence that Helena thinks she has it all down. What Barbara did was very manipulative not to mention condescending. That’s what got her mad. Though to be honest Helena has herself partly to blame. After the way that Barbara and Dinah treated her in issue #68, I really had to wonder why she wanted to be friends with these two women in the first place.


And really...when it comes to "troubled" the pot is calling the kettle black. Barbara is one of the most messed up characters I have seen in the DCU. Look at her treatment of Nightwing. She doesn’t have a chip on her shoulder she has a block.


Personally I don't think that Barbara was trying to help Huntress. As much as change her personality so that she could be a much more effective team member.

[Mia]

He also offered to hide her from the police and mafia until he could find the killer. He gave her, via Robin, all the information about her family in the third part of the Cry for Blood mini. I'm not trying to make excuses, or put down Helena, but she did have options that could have been explored. She didn't even mention to the Question what was going on, if memory serves.


Batman didn't offer to hide her. He simply said:

"You're comming with me....Your situation has changed. Innocent or not, I won't let you roma the city fighting the police. You come with me now. you keep your secret identity."

Was that supposed to earn her trust? It also sounded like a veiled threat. Would you run to someone who had that opinion of you? Also yes she found out all the information on her family through Batman and Robin. But it was also how she discovered that it was Cassamento who was framing her, and who was blackmailing her. And hence why she had to make the descision she did.

[TCJohnson]

Personally I don't think that Barbara was trying to help Huntress. As much as change her personality so that she could be a much more effective team member.

I think it was both. As I said before, this isn't black and white. You know, I never known anybody do something major with just one motive.

[Static-Pulse]

Was that supposed to earn her trust?I suppose not.

[MacQuarrie]

I don't see it as manipulation, not any more than any teacher, minister, motivational speaker or psychiatrist manipulates. Helena is way screwed up, and in ways that she herself will not acknowledge or face. In emotional terms, she is very much a child. She was daddy's sheltered little girl up until the day she discovered what he did for a living. Anybody who tries to help her is going to have to deal with her as a child.

I see what she did as an extension fo the Socratic Method; rather than confronting Helena with a big intervention and forcing her to get help, she "manipulated" her into helping herself. Again, how is this a bad thing? Every parent, every teacher, every counselor, every minister of every stripe does it all the time and the people they do it with thank them. Barbara may have saved Helena's life.

Should Barbara have stayed out of it and watched her self-destruct? I think she did the right thing, and Helena should have recognized it as such when she recognized the techniques being used. If Barbara is "just like Batman" (she's not, but if), then Helena is just like Barbara, only she's hypocritical enough to say it's okay when she does it to other people's kids.

[Pixies Chick]

I think the desire to help is commendable, but Barbara deciding that she is in a position to determine what is wrong with Helena, how she should change, and what she will experience to cause that change. She's an employer, not God.

If I were to look at a neighbor and decide that they needed to develop empathy for crime victims, and to achieve that, I victimized them, I'd be the one who needed help. Barbara judged Helena. She believed she was much better at running Helena's life that Helena was, so she took it over.

Generally, to have healthy relationships, we have to have honesty. We tend to go a little nutty if we're being played.

The other big difference between the adult and troubled kid analogy is that I think the kids often do know that they are being separated from the other kids for a reason. They've also been told what behavior others want to see changed. They usually get praise and feedback to help them successfully adapt. Helena didn't get any of this.

[TCJohnson]

I don't see it as manipulation, not any more than any teacher, minister, motivational speaker or psychiatrist manipulates. Helena is way screwed up, and in ways that she herself will not acknowledge or face. In emotional terms, she is very much a child. She was daddy's sheltered little girl up until the day she discovered what he did for a living. Anybody who tries to help her is going to have to deal with her as a child.

But you would expect that from psychiatrist. That is what you go to a psychiatrist for, or a minister. There is an understanding up front that there would be this kind of manipluation. And there is a reason you are rarely friends with these people. They keep a certain emotional distance from you for your own protection as well as theirs. And when they are done, most of the times they try to explain what was done...except in the case of teachers and children...but then you shouldn't be treating Helena like a child.

With friends...doing that is dishonest. Especially since Barbara would never have admitted to it. So from that point on you would have to question all of Barbara's actions.

Would you like control being taken away from you and for somebody to lie about their motives and their friendship?

If Barbara is "just like Batman" (she's not, but if), then Helena is just like Barbara, only she's hypocritical enough to say it's okay when she does it to other people's kids.

Again, that's kids! You really think that treating Helena like a child is not condenscending?

[MacQuarrie]

Again, that's kids! You really think that treating Helena like a child is not condenscending?
Not really. Despite the bust, she's emotionally about 13. Her whole raison d'etre is adolescent angst.

[Static-Pulse]

I think the desire to help is commendable, but Barbara deciding that she is in a position to determine what is wrong with Helena, how she should change, and what she will experience to cause that change. She's an employer, not God.This is what bothers me, until Gail started writing Barbara never had any desire to help Helena. She grudgingly helped Tim during the Cry for Blood mini, but before that: she warned Canary away from her in Man Hunt, mutually despised her for sleeping with Nightwing, broke down sobbing during NML because Helena wore the Batgirl suit, and then showed no remorse in telling her that Helena's secret was no secret from Oracle. Pre-Gail, Barbara all-but-hated Helena, the Birds of Prey: Secret Files & Origins have her saying she might use Helena as a "last resort" (said pre-Birds, when Barbara was picking a field agent for the Nick Devine case) but that's the closest she's come to ever, willingly working with Helena.

I want to know where the impetus to "fix" Huntress came from, but first I want to know where Barbara even liking her originates.

[TCJohnson]

Not really. Despite the bust, she's emotionally about 13. Her whole raison d'etre is adolescent angst.

Which might be true, but do you think that Helena would appreciate being treated like a child? And that she would take that from anybody? Or apologize for being mad about it? You could argue that Barbara was trying to do the right thing, and what is best for Helena...but that doesn't mean Helena doesn't have to the right to be mad about the methods.

[Mia]

I don't see it as manipulation, not any more than any teacher, minister, motivational speaker or psychiatrist manipulates. Helena is way screwed up, and in ways that she herself will not acknowledge or face. In emotional terms, she is very much a child. She was daddy's sheltered little girl up until the day she discovered what he did for a living. Anybody who tries to help her is going to have to deal with her as a child.

.



Excuse me? I don't know which motivational speakers, ministers or psychiatrists you know who use these techniques. But if those who do should loose their liscences to practices very quick. I've listened to motivational speakers and ministers and none of them have employed the methods that Barbara has.


Helena is way screwed up, and in ways that she herself will not acknowledge or face. In emotional terms, she is very much a child. She was daddy's sheltered little girl up until the day she discovered what he did for a living. Anybody who tries to help her is going to have to deal with her as a child.


Pardon me. But I don't know which character you are talking about. But that isn't Huntress. Huntress lost her innocence at eight years old when her entire family. Mother, Father and brother were gunned down before her eyes. The same way that Batman ceased to be a child at 8 years (or whatever the official age is) when his parents died. Hate to say it but Helena became an adult when she was 8 as well. Helena Bertinelli never had a childhood. When her parents died. She went to live with assasins in Sicily. She lived on a farm with her Uncle, Aunt and Cousine. She helped her Aunt out, she did chores, she had a tutor. She did not grow up with other kids. Later on after years of having horrible nightmares. Her cousine and uncle taught her how to be an assasin so that she could defend herself. Years later after having finishing her post secondary education. She returns to the US. Gets a job teaching. And decides to put all of her skills to use helping those who can't help themselves and bring criminals to justice.






I don't know what your definition of an adult or a child is. But that sounds to me like an adult

If there are two "daddies girls" in this story. It's Dinah and Barbara. In issue 79 Dinah as much as admits that she is the apple of her fathers eye. And Gordon calls Babs "Princess". Hey not even my Dad calls me that.
Oracle has constantly sabotaged a relationship with one of the finest men in the DCU (Nightwing) and Canary dumped a fine man to go back to a philanderer (who cheated on her). Given that, I hardly think that Oracle and Canary are hardly fit to give lectures or try and fix people.

Not really. Despite the bust, she's emotionally about 13. Her whole raison d'etre is adolescent angst.

Not it isn't, and again, I don't know what character you are talking about. But that's not Huntress.

[Mia]

This is what bothers me, until Gail started writing Barbara never had any desire to help Helena. She grudgingly helped Tim during the Cry for Blood mini, but before that: she warned Canary away from her in Man Hunt, mutually despised her for sleeping with Nightwing, broke down sobbing during NML because Helena wore the Batgirl suit, and then showed no remorse in telling her that Helena's secret was no secret from Oracle. Pre-Gail, Barbara all-but-hated Helena, the Birds of Prey: Secret Files & Origins have her saying she might use Helena as a "last resort" (said pre-Birds, when Barbara was picking a field agent for the Nick Devine case) but that's the closest she's come to ever, willingly working with Helena.

I want to know where the impetus to "fix" Huntress came from, but first I want to know where Barbara even liking her originates.

Brilliantlly put and very well said. I also never understood why in issue #69 they are all pals when Dinah and Barbara ganged up on her in 68# doing everything but calling her a wh*re. I don't understand why Helena would want to be friends with women like this. Especially given the fact that she had a rough experience with snotty girls in high school. And the nasty way that Oracle has treated her. Sometimes I can't help but get the feeling that Huntress is written so badly and stupidly in order to make Oracle and Canary look good. It's just way too contrived.

[Static-Pulse]

Given that, I hardly think that Oracle and Canary are hardly fit to give lectures or try and fix people.You're absolutely right. Barbara and Dinah cannot function as real people. Barbara used to before she was shot, but Dinah has never been anything but a professional super hero. ("Sherwood Florist" barely made ends meet.) This concept that they're the emotionally stable ones is nutzo.

This issue #80 thing also begs the question: was Zinda going to be Barbara's next project? Gail has said she has no moral qualms with killing people, was Babs going to fix her up by giving her a nice, new Citation-X to fly?

[Static-Pulse]

Sometimes I can't help but get the feeling that Huntress is written so badly and stupidly in order to make Oracle and Canary look good.It's funny that you say that, because for a while, I felt that Dinah was being under-written so that Huntress would come off looking more like the hero.

[Mia]

You're absolutely right. Barbara and Dinah cannot function as real people. Barbara used to before she was shot, but Dinah has never been anything but a professional super hero. ("Sherwood Florist" barely made ends meet.) This concept that they're the emotionally stable ones is nutzo.



I just hope that Babara's penchant to play "God" will eventually be looked at down the road.

Oh and I sort of have this little pet theory that Bruce set Barbara up as Oracle out of guilt from what happened to her, than any real necessity or respect for her talents.

It's funny that you say that, because for a while, I felt that Dinah was being under-written so that Huntress would come off looking more like the hero.

I don't know I get the sense that Canary is Gail's "pet" character. Also hasn't Canary always been...the ditzy blond? I got that even from reading Dixon's run on BoP.

[Static-Pulse]

Oh and I sort of have this little pet theory that Bruce set Barbara up as Oracle out of guilt from what happened to her.I think her "grant from the Wayne Foundation" pushes that theory over into the real of fact. Not to mention he was the one who introduced her to Richard Dragon, the guy who taught her how to fight with Escrima stick. Not to mention that the Clocktower, I believe, was owned by Bruce Wayne (or Wayne Enterprises).

Yeah, without Batman feeling guilty, Oracle would have had a hard time getting to where she was today.

I don't know I get the sense that Canary is Gail's "pet" character. Also hasn't Canary always been...the ditzy blond? I got that even from reading Dixon's run on BoP.Eh, you'll have a hard time getting me to call her a ditzy blonde, though some people (http://www.livejournal.com/users/zatara2000/73790.html) have used the phrase "bimbo whore" to describe her during that era. I always thought of her as a kind of heroic-savant: drop her into a battlefield and she can knock down any obstacle, but get her out on a date and she regresses to a teenager.

My personal, pet theory is that Dinah never matured like most people do. She went from being her dad's Prvate Eye sidekick, to training with Ted Grant, to founding the Justice League, to moving with Ollie to Star City, to being traumatized during Long Bow Hunters, to slowly healing while living in Ollie's shadow, to breaking up with him, and finally dealing with his death. Between breaking up with him and hooking up with Barbara, she seemed to have bounced around with The Ray and done a few missions for herself. She's never matured beyond nineteen, or whenever she met up with Ollie. If Barbara ever manipulated her, and I say if, it's been much the same way Batman "manipulates" Batgirl: using Canary's natural, heroing talents for missions.

Wow, that was off-topic... I don't even know if that had a point. Oh, "ditzy blond." Maybe. However, I tend to like "ditzy" characters and find them often more normal and adaptable than healthy, "normal" characters. :)

[Mia]

I think her "grant from the Wayne Foundation" pushes that theory over into the real of fact. Not to mention he was the one who introduced her to Richard Dragon, the guy who taught her how to fight with Escrima stick. Not to mention that the Clocktower, I believe, was owned by Bruce Wayne (or Wayne Enterprises).

Yeah, without Batman feeling guilty, Oracle would have had a hard time getting to where she was today.


Hmmm....Do you suppose that's the real reason she hates Helena? Because Huntress is the real deal? She built herself into a super hero all on her own? She does her own thing? She functions idenpendently. That kind of thing can cause resentment and jealousy amongst people who...had a hand up. The problem with Helena is that she has no idea how fine and good she is. Everyone else sees it but she doesn't. I think that Barbara is jealous of Helena and wantsto "dull" Huntress' colours.

[Mia]

I think her "grant from the Wayne Foundation" pushes that theory over into the real of fact. Not to mention he was the one who introduced her to Richard Dragon, the guy who taught her how to fight with Escrima stick. Not to mention that the Clocktower, I believe, was owned by Bruce Wayne (or Wayne Enterprises).

Yeah, without Batman feeling guilty, Oracle would have had a hard time getting to where she was today.

Eh, you'll have a hard time getting me to call her a ditzy blonde, though some people (http://www.livejournal.com/users/zatara2000/73790.html) have used the phrase "bimbo whore" to describe her during that era. I always thought of her as a kind of heroic-savant: drop her into a battlefield and she can knock down any obstacle, but get her out on a date and she regresses to a teenager.

My personal, pet theory is that Dinah never matured like most people do. She went from being her dad's Prvate Eye sidekick, to training with Ted Grant, to founding the Justice League, to moving with Ollie to Star City, to being traumatized during Long Bow Hunters, to slowly healing while living in Ollie's shadow, to breaking up with him, and finally dealing with his death. Between breaking up with him and hooking up with Barbara, she seemed to have bounced around with The Ray and done a few missions for herself. She's never matured beyond nineteen, or whenever she met up with Ollie. If Barbara ever manipulated her, and I say if, it's been much the same way Batman "manipulates" Batgirl: using Canary's natural, heroing talents for missions.

Wow, that was off-topic... I don't even know if that had a point. Oh, "ditzy blond." Maybe. However, I tend to like "ditzy" characters and find them often more normal and adaptable than healthy, "normal" characters. :)


I don't know Canary as well as you do. But that seems to be pretty much an accurate assesment. When I say ditzy I don't mean in the sense that she's useless. But yeah, an over grown teenager is pretty close. I've often advocated that she would be a great girlfriend for Nightwing because she's light hearted and doesn't take life seriously.

[Static-Pulse]

Sorry about editing the post after you replied...

Hmmm....Do you suppose that's the real reason she hates Helena?I think Barbara dislikes Helena because...

...Batman does.

...Helena slept with Nightwing.

...Helena was Batgirl, and could be Batgirl while Barbara was trapped in her apartment during NML. I don't think people really realize that until James Gordon carried her down to the street, Babs was trapped in the clocktower. Seeing Helena free and using her old personae couldn't have done anything good.

...she has killed. As much of a reason as she may have had to do it, that is a line that the bat-family holds near and dear.

...Batman does.

[WhiteRose]

This issue #80 thing also begs the question: was Zinda going to be Barbara's next project? Gail has said she has no moral qualms with killing people, was Babs going to fix her up by giving her a nice, new Citation-X to fly?

I was just thinking that last night actually; Zinda was all but washed up as Lady Blackhawk. And with Huntress' line about 'a rehab centre for broken superheroines' It got me thinking to the few times (pre-Gail) that Oracle used other agents (not Canary) in the field. Like Power Girl for instance (Issue...42 I think). I can't say I know a lot about either Power Girl, or Zinda, but from what I've read and seen and whatnot they became out-dated heroines after the primes of their careers. But there was Oracle, giving everyone a second chance, while she was still able to call the shots and even live vicariously through them a little.
I think Oracle's had the capacity to do something like this all along. She lies to her friends constantly (not telling Canary that she had all of Savant's files after Canary burnt the disks, she had nerve to ask Canary to stay in the Tower with her, and then fired her when she refused, not exactly being completely open about what Brainiac has done to her), while she expects her agents to be honest and open with her. I love Barbara Gordon to death, Batgirl I is my favourite character of all time, but Oracle seems like the ultimate puppet-master.

[Gail Simone]

At last, Mia and Static get the made-up evidence to support a genuinely bizarre set of preconceptions! You've each found soulmates!

Okay, I'm kidding. Don't yell at me.

:)

Mia, I know you've had a grudge against Bop since issue #68 at least, but I'm sorry, the idealized Huntress you have in your mind isn't the character that DC's been publishing, since well before I showed up. I'm sorry, but it's true.

Static, this reminds me of your old posts, tons and tons of barely concealed snark that unfortunately fails to be clear or meaningful. I GET that you feel I've made all these character idiots (which, pardon me, if you think they were treated with some kind of ultimate respect before, I have to say you've UTTERLY misread their appearances).

My goal, and I THINK this is the problem both of you have, has never been to make Oracle a perfect untouchable goddess, as Static wants, or Huntress into an elegant and unerring lady of the manor, as it seems Mia wants. Those aren't the characters I was given, and they're not the characters I'm interested in.

I'm interested in incredibly exceptional women who AREN'T flawless, perfect RPG wish-fulfillment. That is not the book Bop is going to be under my watch. You're honestly perfectly entitled to your opinion, but since nearly no one else seems to have come up with the same opinion (that I've made the BOPpers morons), I have to wonder if perhaps the book you WANT Bop to be is always going to be a little different than the book it's been, certainly since inception.

Sorry, I'm always fine with criticism, but the book that they're complaining about doesn't seem to actually bear that much similarity to the book we're actually publishing.



For everyone else, I think it's very easy to think poorly of any or ALL of the birds after this issue, but it's such a reductionist approach to pretend that that's all that this issue is about. Everyone hurt, but it's entirely possible that everyone had nothing but the best intentions. I think that's just what happens. Neither is this the last issue of Birds of Prey so odds are darn near 100% that this story isn't completely over.

It's also a bit weird to gripe that I cheated on this story, as it's something I planned very carefully for over two years ago, and nearly every issue has a seed in it (some that baffled careful readers at the time) that resonated here, and of course, we're not done.

Looking back at this book since the first issue of the mini-series, I think it's unbelievably INCREDIBLY obvious that Oracle is trying to lift up some of these female characters. Static, for all your research, you seem not to have actually read any of these issues. Go back and read the issue where she first chooses Black Canary to be her agent, and read carefully.

I would NEVER try to undermine or betray what Chuck set up, and implying that's the case (as, for example, trying for a SECOND time to get him to prop up your point on his message board), is just kinda...well, jeez, it's a bit sad on this end.

But I think, reading exactly what happened with Black Canary and Power Girl in Bop, this is an extremely valid and honest interpretation, and generally, the people who are upset are those who just can't stand to see their favorite characters behave in a manner that is not always 100% perfect.

I know there are characters like that, but I defy anyone to look at the history of THESE three and say that any of them belong in that category.

And there's a very good chance that they'll come out of this stronger, because that's the kind of person I most admire.

Gail

[Gail Simone]

White Rose, that's a great post, and I think, yes, Zinda absolutely is a poster child for the UPSIDE of Oracle's approach.

I think this situation is one where more than one viewpoint is true. It's entirely possible that what she's doing is what ANY great leader does--tries to find the greatness in the people she works with.

Or, it's possible to see this from Huntress' pov, that Oracle's becoming She-Batman, the puppet master who manipulates people, even people who don't give their trust and friendship very easily, and have been hurt in the past. To Huntress, it looks like betrayal.

Mac makes a great point, that in the end, Oracle's agents are better off (although Huntress and Power Girl might disagree), but Huntress is an adult, and sooner or letter, the question of compliance comes in. Did Huntress consent to being put through Oracle's superhero rehab?

And why is she so motivated?


What does she get out of it?


I think it's great that very loyal readers of the book have diametrically opposed viewpoints.

All I can say is, this coming arc will be very surprising, I think!

And thanks for all the amazing thoughts, both pro and con.

Best,

Gail

[mike626]

White Rose, that's a great post, and I think, yes, Zinda absolutely is a poster child for the UPSIDE of Oracle's approach.

I think this situation is one where more than one viewpoint is true. It's entirely possible that what she's doing is what ANY great leader does--tries to find the greatness in the people she works with.

Or, it's possible to see this from Huntress' pov, that Oracle's becoming She-Batman, the puppet master who manipulates people, even people who don't give their trust and friendship very easily, and have been hurt in the past. To Huntress, it looks like betrayal.

Mac makes a great point, that in the end, Oracle's agents are better off (although Huntress and Power Girl might disagree), but Huntress is an adult, and sooner or letter, the question of compliance comes in. Did Huntress consent to being put through Oracle's superhero rehab?

And why is she so motivated?


What does she get out of it?


I think it's great that very loyal readers of the book have diametrically opposed viewpoints.

All I can say is, this coming arc will be very surprising, I think!

And thanks for all the amazing thoughts, both pro and con.

Best,

Gail Gail, I was wondering how will you have the BOP's react to Batman's mindwipe?

[Gail Simone]

Bleah.

Well, one problem is that every book and its brother is trying to put IDENTITY CRISIS TIE-IN in its solicitation (KIDDING, sorta!), and my automatic instinct is always to do the opposite of anything considered a commercial 'sure thing.'

So we'll have to deal with it, but I don't know if it'll be immediately...I do know how the BOPpers would feel about it, though!

Good question!


Gail

[mike626]

Bleah.

Well, one problem is that every book and its brother is trying to put IDENTITY CRISIS TIE-IN in its solicitation (KIDDING, sorta!), and my automatic instinct is always to do the opposite of anything considered a commercial 'sure thing.'

So we'll have to deal with it, but I don't know if it'll be immediately...I do know how the BOPpers would feel about it, though!

Good question!


Gail Thanx! I don't think it wolud to to the point where Babs will "fire" Dinah will it? :confused:

[Static-Pulse]

Before I go on, I want to remind everyone of the following: I have not read #80 yet. I'm basing my argument on conversations and forum spoilers, so anything subtle like the look on a face or a clue offered a few pages back might disrupt my whole tact. (Ignorance doesn't stop me from looking like a fool, it just reminds me to disclaim it, which means sod.)

Okay, I'm kidding. Don't yell at me.I won't yell, if you'll stop accusing me of attacking you everytime I post a message to Chuck Dixon's board.

Static, this reminds me of your old posts, tons and tons of barely concealed snark that unfortunately fails to be clear or meaningful.What is unclear? I'll do my best to explain it better. If I am missing something and it's because I don't have all the pieces, ask. I'm liable to find the comic that proves me wrong, and nothing would make me happier!

Looking back at this book since the first issue of the mini-series, I think it's unbelievably INCREDIBLY obvious that Oracle is trying to lift up some of these female characters. Static, for all your research, you seem not to have actually read any of these issues. Go back and read the issue where she first chooses Black Canary to be her agent, and read carefully.I have. Let me see here... Two pages from the first issues of One Man's Hell...

http://profnano.org/hackers/db/bop_omh_01.jpg
http://profnano.org/hackers/db/bop_omh_02.jpg

...and the Birds of Prey: Secret Files and Origins...

http://profnano.org/hackers/db/bopsfo_p37.jpg
http://profnano.org/hackers/db/bopsfo_p38.jpg

In regards to One Man's Hell, while Barbara did point out that Nick Devine was a "babe hound," she also pointed out that Dinah was "a ladies' man's kind of lady." She then went on to tell Dinah that she picked Dinah because "[her] life [lacked] direction" (changes for person and tense). Barbara never tried to conceal that she realized Dinah was messed up, she went so far as to tell it to her point-blank.

But even before that, in a prequel kind of way, Birds of Prey: Secret Files & Origins shows us that (a) Barbara was already going after Nick Devine and (b) Black Canary wasn't her first choice. She didn't pick the mission for Dinah, she picked Dinah for the mission. The end result, Dinah working through her grief/frustration, may have happened, but Barbara was not using the mission to help Dinah.

Lift them up, sure. I won't deny that Dinah healed a great deal, but I don't think Barbara actively tried to fix her because at the time, Barbara was pretty messed up as well. If anything, they both came out better because of their partnership, not because Barbara picked targets for Dinah to go after. Having Barbara invite Huntress to join, just to fix her, means that Barbara had to be completely unaware of just how much her friendship with Dinah had helped her.

I'm sorry, but I'm unwilling to believe that Barbara, one of the smartest humans in the DCU, the person with an eidetic memory, would be unable to remember what she was like before Dinah, what Dinah was like before her, and not realize that a similar situation might work for Helena. Certainly that's proof that Oracle can "lift up" a person, but it's not proof that she needs to manipulate Helena... Or that she is manipulating Helena.

Barbara's not perfect, as much as I want to believe she is. She got her own sense of justice, she often is a bit extreme, she's bitter and distrustful after being shot, but I've never seen her manipulate her friends or allies -- never seen, so please show me.

I would NEVER try to undermine or betray what Chuck set up, and implying that's the case (as, for example, trying for a SECOND time to get him to prop up your point on his message board), is just kinda...well, jeez, it's a bit sad on this end.First, I was asking (http://www.eboards4all.com/579787/messages/4984.html) if #80 reflected what he intended. If he says "Yes," then it proves I'm nuts. If he says "No," then it proves you're going in a different direction than he is, which offers me a whole different perspective on the book. The biggest revalation to date regarding your BOP was that it was a team book, and not the same "buddy flick" that Chuck wrote; as silly as that sounds, that eureaka moment has given me a lot of peace.

Second, when was the last time I tried to get Chuck to bash you? The only other post I can remember, in regards to Birds, was asking what was his reasoning behind Oracle not walking. Was there another post I'm forgetting? I'm a fan, you're a colleague, while I can be rather obsessive on my view of Oracle and Black Canary, there's no way in hell Chuck or anyone else would side with me over you. The best I can hope for is more data for my profile of the characters, a profile whose only use is discussing Birds and terrible, terrible fanfic.

I'm sorry if my post looked like an attack. I know repeating the question didn't help, but if there was an edit feature on his forum I couldn't find it to correct my redundancy. Honestly, I thought posting to the board would be more upfront and less, well, of an attack than emailing him.

Third, you'll have to forgive me if I percieve attacks on the stuff Chuck setup. My perception is a bit warped since I read all of Nightwing last year. The year 2004, for me, is the year all of Nightwing's supporting cast got killed, the Clock Tower was destroyed, Spoiler was killed, and the Nightwing I grew to enjoy was given more angst than anyone deserves. For me, a lot of what Chuck established got destroyed by the DC editorial stall, so when my percieved premise of Birds gets yanked out from beneath me, and replaced with Barbara having always been a manipulator... I rant.

...the people who are upset are those who just can't stand to see their favorite characters behave in a manner that is not always 100% perfect.There's a difference in "not always 100% perfect" and "oops, that friendship, it was a lie, turns out I knew what was best for you." I mean, geez, the YABS board just got me halfway believing that Dinah was right to stand up for her friends in #79, and then from everything I hear about issue #80, it looks like everything Dinah said was for crap. If "upset" isn't the emotion you were going for, I'm not sure what you were after.

Plus, look at what I told, err, Mia? I don't think (changed from "want," since I do want this) the Birds are perfect, because they're not. They're emotional wrecks. Barbara does what she does, at least in part, trying to get revenge for being shot. She's pushed Nightwing away numerous times because she still has not accepted the trauma that changed her life. Barbara is not perfect, she's not an archetype of virtue... But I want someone to show me when she's been a manipulator before issue #56.

[TCJohnson]

I'm sorry, but I'm unwilling to believe that Barbara, one of the smartest humans in the DCU, the person with an eidetic memory, would be unable to remember what she was like before Dinah, what Dinah was like before her, and not realize that a similar situation might work for Helena. Certainly that's proof that Oracle can "lift up" a person, but it's not proof that she needs to manipulate Helena... Or that she is manipulating Helena.


I have only been getting BoP for about 10 issues so most of what you said I cannot comment on. However, I do know people and self awareness is one of the rarest things to have and it has nothing to do with intelligence or memory. If it was we wouldn't have so many jerks in the world because if people were aware they are being jerks they would probably stop.

People decieve themselves about their motives all the time, even smart people with perfect memories. Anything Barbara remembers about herself will be filtered through a lot of bias and self deception and selective memories, and even then she may not be able to look at herself and make the connection to how she was messed up then and how Huntress is messed up now. Barbara probably doesn't realize how messed up she was then, and doesn't realize how messed up she is now, nor do I think Barbara realizes how manipulative she is now. My perception of Oracle is that she is so good at being manipulative she doesn't even realize that she is doing it all the time.

As I said before, many times whenever somebody does anything they have multiple motivations. I invited my girlfriend over to my place last night. Why? A) I am more relaxed when she is around B) I got to kiss and snuggle with her and C) It gave me an excuse to try out a new recipe. All of those were motivations for me for my girlfriend to come over last night.

Barbara sent Huntress on those missions, I believe, because A) Barbara felt they needed to be done B) She wanted to teach Huntress a lesson about herself to help her as a person C) She wanted to teach Huntress a lesson about herself to make her a better soldier and D) Since she can no longer go into the field she lives vicariously through her agents. It is very possible that Oracle acted with all those motivations at once. Two of them are aultruistic and two of them are selfish. Barbara's perception is that the two altruistic motives are her main motives: She sent DInah and Helena after these targets because it needed to be done and she can help a friend at the same time. Helena's perception is that Barbara acted with the two most selfish mtoives in mind.

My point? That Barbara can be manipulative while still being a good person and she may have had more than one reason to choose for Black Canary to go after Nick Divine and she may have had more than one reason to send Huntress after the vigilantes. This does not villify her or make her a dumb person. And just because Barbara tried to manipulate Dinah and Helena does not mean the friendship is a lie for Barbara.

[Gail Simone]

Static, your posts are OFTEN attacks, but I believe you don't have much control over that, for reasons unknown. Your constant implication that I'm dumbing down characters that had been HUGELY mistreated (not by Chuck, for that matter), is far more insulting to me (and quite distant from what I believe the book portrays) than the fact that you had a long-running blog mostly about what a dumb bitch I am. I don't expect you to get that, but it's true. I care deeply about the birds, but you've made it clear from the beginning that you, and to your credit you were honest about this, really just want an untouchable ice queen ruling Gotham from a tower she never leaves for Oracle, and that's just not in keeping with the character as established. If anyone writes Babs that way now, THEY're the ones getting it wrong.


Let me throw it open...does anyone else here, aside from Mia, think that the Birds are idiots now?

When I think of the history of all three characters, it's ridiculously easy to find stories where they were each treated like dishrags and psycho bitches. They certainly didn't have some mythical, shining history of dignified portrayal that I came along and ruined just to be mean, and to be honest, I'm baffled as to where such a notion even comes from.

As for the Secret Files story, respectfully, I thought it was a nice story, but it was by a first-time writer not in contact with Chuck or myself, and I didn't believe it portrayed Babs' thought processes accurately even at the time. It's much easier to follow Chuck's progression of Canary from directionless (but talented) wanderer to a more focused agent. My run intentionally moves that arc further along, as well as the burgeoning friendship between Oracle and Canary that he set up. I have tried very hard to do a book that continues the themes of Chuck's work, because I believe it's a cheat to the readers, characters and former creators to just pretend that they began the moment I took over. If you look at the entire Chuck run, there's a very cool progression of movement for the characters, and that's one of my favorite parts about what he accomplished. Certainly we've had some tonal movements, but I absolutely believe Chuck's work and my work are part of one, bigger story.

Best,

Gail

[Gail Simone]

I don't think the Birds are emotional wrecks. I think they're at the end of Act Two of a huge story.

You can be hurt or make a mistake without being a quivering mound of glob who won't leave the corner. Part of what makes them admirable to me is that heroism hasn't been easy for them. It's cost all of them hugely, but they don't waver. I love that about them. Unlike many serial books, we don't have something awful happen to them and we forget about it next issue.

Gail

[Gail Simone]

I have only been getting BoP for about 10 issues so most of what you said I cannot comment on. However, I do know people and self awareness is one of the rarest things to have and it has nothing to do with intelligence or memory. If it was we wouldn't have so many jerks in the world because if people were aware they are being jerks they would probably stop.

People decieve themselves about their motives all the time, even smart people with perfect memories. Anything Barbara remembers about herself will be filtered through a lot of bias and self deception and selective memories, and even then she may not be able to look at herself and make the connection to how she was messed up then and how Huntress is messed up now. Barbara probably doesn't realize how messed up she was then, and doesn't realize how messed up she is now, nor do I think Barbara realizes how manipulative she is now. My perception of Oracle is that she is so good at being manipulative she doesn't even realize that she is doing it all the time.

As I said before, many times whenever somebody does anything they have multiple motivations. I invited my girlfriend over to my place last night. Why? A) I am more relaxed when she is around B) I got to kiss and snuggle with her and C) It gave me an excuse to try out a new recipe. All of those were motivations for me for my girlfriend to come over last night.

Barbara sent Huntress on those missions, I believe, because A) Barbara felt she needed to be done B) She wanted to teach Huntress a lesson about herself to help her as a person C) She wanted to teach Huntress a lesson about herself to make her a better soldier and D) Since she can no longer go into the field she lives vicariously through her agents. It is very possible that Oracle acted with all those motivations at once. Two of them are aultruistic and two of them are selfish. Barbara's perception is that the two altruistic motives are her main motives: She sent DInah and Helena after these targets because it needed to be done and she can help a friend at the same time. Helena's perception is that Barbara acted with the two most selfish mtoives in mind.

My point? That Barbara can be manipulative while still being a good person and she may have had more than one reason to choose for Black Canary to go after Nick Divine and she may have had more than one reason to send Huntress after the vigilantes. This does not villify her or make her a dumb person. And just because Barbara tried to manipulate Dinah and Helena does not mean the friendship is a lie for Barbara.


That's a great post. I'm glad you wrote it so I don't have to! :)

Gail

[heystacy]

Man, I'm upset. I feel bad for Huntress. She really felt used, and manipulated by someone she trusted. Looks like she's lost a huge part of her identity, leaving the crossbow abd mask. I hoipe she comes back. Love her in the series. I did note that Barbara and Dinah had a positive effect on Helena. I guess that's over.

[TCJohnson]

Let me throw it open...does anyone else here, aside from Mia, think that the Birds are idiots now?


I think that Black Canary has overly implistic views and Huntress is emotionally immature, but that's not the same as being idiots.

[Static-Pulse]

Your constant implication that I'm dumbing down characters that had been HUGELY mistreated ... is far more insulting to me ... than the fact that you had a long-running blog mostly about what a dumb bitch I am.I'm not sure how to reply here, except that my opinion doesn't reflect your intent or other people's perception, it's my own view. Back when I was running the blog, you implied I was chickenshit for hiding out there and not putting my opinions forth in a forum where they could counter-pointed. I took what you said to heart, accepted your invitation, and came here to argue my views. However they come across, they're not meant to be insulting, simply my take on the stories.

I'm not trying to insult you, I'm trying to put forth my view and see if my opinion can be changed.

As for the Secret Files story, respectfully, I thought it was a nice story, but it was by a first-time writer not in contact with Chuck or myself, and I didn't believe it portrayed Babs' thought processes accurately even at the time.I didn't realize that was the case. It was my impression, right or wrong, that it was as much canon as anything else. But this is where I get confused, and frustrated; you can kind of hand wave that story and say it didn't feel like Barbara, but then something like Identity Crisis ends up making Dinah look like an accessory to brainwashing.

This is where my snark comes from: as a fan who is still relatively new to this end of the Bat-family, trying to piece together parts of the Birds history from what fragments and back issues I can, I don't know what gets accepted and what doesn't. Right now I'm still assimilating the idea of a manipulating Barbara, but knowing that you don't put as much importance on that when writing your stories... It makes the assimilation easier. (Not saying I'm completely down with it, but knowing what bits of canon you consider important helps.)

Certainly we've had some tonal movements, but I absolutely believe Chuck's work and my work are part of one, bigger story.That's the singular reason I asked over on his forum, and it's why I'm hoping he'll give me an answer. If Barbara playing therapist was his intent all along, then everything, every argument I've made about the series is wrong. If that's the case, then I won't mind reshuffling the way I view it. If he says otherwise, then I know that (a) I wasn't wrong and (b) I can start enjoying the series for what it is now.

If you want, I'll stick "blatant troll" under my name so people will disregard what I say from how on. However, when something doesn't sit right with me or a story doesn't feel like it fits, I'm going to ask. It's not an attempt to create waves (though waves are sadly an accepted side-effect), it's to better understand the DCU as a whole. If that's wrong, if that's an attack, then I am grievously uneducated in the ways of comicdom.

[Gail Simone]

Static, I lose patience with you for many reasons, but one of the big ones is, you're so married to this outrage that you don't ever seem to actually need a REASON for it. It just boggles the mind that you can read ten issues that directly contradict your thesis, and then you HEAR of a story that you haven't read yet, and bam, that's irrefutable proof.

I invited you to post here, and you're still welcome to post here, I don't dislike you at all, but let's not pretend you don't know when you're being insulting, all right? Unless you're genuinely unaware, in which case, let me know.

I've spent a lot of time trying to decypher your letters on the subject and in the end, a lot of it seems to come down to you have this idea of what the book should be, and because it's not, never has been, never will be, you try to make a case that the evidence just doesn't bear out at all.

The ONLY thing that irked me about the Gail-Simone-is-a-dumb-bitch blog was that I felt, and still feel, that you made up evidence to make an extremely weak case for a point I know for a fact is untrue. I just feel that's beneath someone as smart as you, and I confess I lose interest in it pretty fast. The fact that you hate my work doesn't bother me, but being accused of making the Boppers stupid...that's just such an absurd notion that it does get under my skin a bit. I have CONSTANTLY fought against anyone who tried to portray any of the Boppers in that manner.

But they're not perfect, never gonna be perfect, and I just find it weird that people think SMART somehow equals 100% emotionally together. A history full of suicidal geniuses proves that's not the case.

Read the issue, then if you still want to post long screeds about fictional grievances, it'll have a lot more validity.



Gail

[Gail Simone]

Man, I'm upset. I feel bad for Huntress. She really felt used, and manipulated by someone she trusted. Looks like she's lost a huge part of her identity, leaving the crossbow abd mask. I hoipe she comes back. Love her in the series. I did note that Barbara and Dinah had a positive effect on Helena. I guess that's over.


Stacy, obviously I can't say, but to make a fine edge, you have to put the iron in the hottest part of the fire.

Whatever THAT means! ;)

Gail

[Static-Pulse]

As I said before, many times whenever somebody does anything they have multiple motivations. I invited my girlfriend over to my place last night. Why? A) I am more relaxed when she is around B) I got to kiss and snuggle with her and C) It gave me an excuse to try out a new recipe. All of those were motivations for me for my girlfriend to come over last night.Let me ask...

How did you invite your girlfriend over? Did you ask her to come over point-blank, or were you underhanded about it? Did you ask her over for a night of snuggling and eating, or did you tell her you needed help moving a shelf?

I'm not arguing that Barbara didn't get anything out of the deal. I'm not arguing that she was trying to help Helena. My sticking point is the assumption that Barbara was underhanded in any way when she recruited Dinah.

I don't know anything about your girlfriend, so let me apologize in advance if this is offensive or maligns her in anyway. Let's suppose your girl friend like catching mice and setting them loose, it's an odd habit but an endearing one. Once every week, you call her over because there's a mouse in your apartment; she comes over, sets the squeaker loose, and you invite her to stay. This goes on for a while, and one day she finds a drawer full of receipts from the pet store. You've been buying mice to have an excuse to invite her over.

How is she going to feel? Betrayed? Used? How will it make you look? How will your relationship function after this? Can it function after this deception?

For a couple of years now, Dinah has been working under the assumption that (a) Barbara was trying to help her out by (b) letting Dinah act as her legs -- so have, I guess, most of the readers. (If I'm the only one who hasn't been told that Barbara threw Dinah a chauvanist once in a while, then I am slow.) Now we learn that from the get-go, Barbara has been subtlely adjusting Dinah's psyche, to be more loyal, by picking missions as "therapy." If you're Dinah, how would this make you feel? Could you think of Barbara as a friend any longer, or is she just the boss?

Maybe I'm not arguing that it's out of character so much as I'm perplexed why their partner- and friendship needed this shadow of doubt. I don't see how it adds to their chemistry any, the same way that I can't imagine tricking your girlfriend with mice would add to your relationship.

[Static-Pulse]

Unless you're genuinely unaware, in which case, let me know.I'm not going to lie and say that my diatribes are the most well formed, and I guess they do come out insulting. I'd not given it much thought until replying to this.

The ONLY thing that irked me about the Gail-Simone-is-a-dumb-bitch blog was that I felt, and still feel, that you made up evidence to make an extremely weak case for a point I know for a fact is untrue. I just feel that's beneath someone as smart as you, and I confess I lose interest in it pretty fast. The fact that you hate my work doesn't bother me, but being accused of making the Boppers stupid...that's just such an absurd notion that it does get under my skin a bit. I have CONSTANTLY fought against anyone who tried to portray any of the Boppers in that manner.First, and foremost, that blog was a terrible vice. I look back on that as a dark part of my being on the Internet -- right up there with getting kicked out of a chat group because I thought proper capitalisation was stupid.

Second, what am I making up. You keep saying that I'm making up evidence, but I can't recall you ever quoting something I've "made up." Please, if you see me making up something, quote it. I'll explain it the best I can, and hopefully someone will tell me where I'm wrong. I find it personally disconcerting that my bias may be clouding my view, and will be ecstatic if someone can tell me how I'm mis-reading something. (Knowing that the prequel in BOPSF&O is something you consider less than proper makes #80 all the more plausible.)

Third, the big reason I've ever thought you were dumbing Barbara down was because she kept screwing up. She gone up against meta-hackers before, her first "case" was against a meta named Interface, so it seems off that she wouldn't have prepared for one. She's faced super-cyber-intelligences before, so it seemed to me that she would have special guards to protect against them. She and Dinah have faced nanites before, which is why I can't figure out the reason she hasn't even whispered for help. Barbara has been chased from her home by people who were after her, and she successfully escaped.

You've rightfully said that characters can't be perfect, that things have to happen for a story to be told. It just seems that at every turn, Oracle, the premiere hacker in the DCU, is being bested by some new upstart. When you (second person plural) throw in her not being able to save Jake Drake, then blowing up the clocktower, and not we watch as what looks like Big Brother Eye waltzing through her systems... This just seems like a completely different Oracle than the one who survived NML by building up a network of people, the Oracle that tied together several Navy missile systems on the fly to defeat the Joker, the Oracle who out smarted the Imperiex virus by hopping through time.

I'm sorry if it's insulting, but I can't name one thing Oracle has done lately that hasn't blown up in her face. I'm playing the same old song, I realize, but everytime there looks to be a victory for Oracle... Boom. Helena points out that everything they've been doing is a trick, all the while their prisoner escapes from the hospital.

That's why anyway... Right or wrong, it's how I see it. I honestly and sincerely wish someone would say, "In issue X, Barbara did Y, and it worked out."

[TCJohnson]

Stacy, obviously I can't say, but to make a fine edge, you have to put the iron in the hottest part of the fire.

Whatever THAT means! ;)

Gail

It means you are a geek that has gone to a renassiance fair? :D

[Corrina]

Ever read the Birds of Prey mini-series "Manhunt?" Dinah was perfectly capable of going after womanizers on her own accord, even when Barbara advised her not to do so. Which mission, specifically, had Barbara sending Canary after a misogynist? Which issues?


The very first BoP issue, with Oracle sending Canary after Ned Devine. The way Dixon wrote that mini, Canary was definitely down on her luck and Oracle had to push her taking back her life.

[TCJohnson]

Let me ask...

How did you invite your girlfriend over? Did you ask her to come over point-blank, or were you underhanded about it? Did you ask her over for a night of snuggling and eating, or did you tell her you needed help moving a shelf?

Well, actually, she asked if she could come over last night. My point is that I had several motivations to say yes, some of them selfish and some of them good. And my point is that the selfish motivations do not cancel out the good ones.

And if I ever did ask her to come over for a night of making out, she would probably say no because I was being rude and classless.


I'm not arguing that Barbara didn't get anything out of the deal. I'm not arguing that she was trying to help Helena. My sticking point is the assumption that Barbara was underhanded in any way when she recruited Dinah.

And I wouldn't even call it underhanded. I think the main person barbara lied too was herself. Everybody, I don't care who you are, practices self deception. Most of Barbara's motives in recruiting Dinah were probably very good, but that doesn't mean that Barbara didn't have subconscious.

I don't know anything about your girlfriend, so let me apologize in advance if this is offensive or maligns her in anyway. Let's suppose your girl friend like catching mice and setting them loose, it's an odd habit but an endearing one. Once every week, you call her over because there's a mouse in your apartment; she comes over, sets the squeaker loose, and you invite her to stay. This goes on for a while, and one day she finds a drawer full of receipts from the pet store. You've been buying mice to have an excuse to invite her over.

But Barbara never created the villians. Barbara was not responsible for Black Alice or the Harverster killing people. She did, however, prioritize the missions she had for Canary and Huntress based on which ones would strengthen their loyalties to Barbara. At least that is how Huntress saw it, and I think there is some truth to Huntress's point of view but it is not the entire story. The real story is a lot more complicated and layerd.


For a couple of years now, Dinah has been working under the assumption that (a) Barbara was trying to help her out by (b) letting Dinah act as her legs -- so have, I guess, most of the readers.

And this is still true. Barbara might have had other motives, like turning Black Canary into a better agent so Barbara herself can be more effective, but that does not mean a) and b) aren't true. [/quote]

Now we learn that from the get-go, Barbara has been subtlely adjusting Dinah's psyche, to be more loyal, by picking missions as "therapy." If you're Dinah, how would this make you feel? Could you think of Barbara as a friend any longer, or is she just the boss?

Well, Dinah, as I said, has a bit of a simplistic view, especially when it comes to her friends. She is really good at overlooking her friends' faults. She will give her friends a LOT. One of the things I loved about the who scene is that she was not mad at Barbara was manipulating people, she was mad that Barbara was driving Helena, another friend, away. I love how all she said was, "FIX. IT."

And nobody here is arguing that Barbara did not have good intentions. Absolutely she did...it was her methods that were wonky. Black Canary can see those good intentions, but the manipulating overshadowed them for Huntress.

[TCJohnson]

What I am getting from you, Static, is that you think that because Barbara did some things that were not quite legit, it cancels out all the good she has done. It seems like it is all or nothing. The way I look at it, Barbara did screw up in treating Helena and Canary like children, it does not cancel out any of the good she has done.

And I still don't think Barbara was aware she was doing some of it, it was subconscious. That is why she did not (sorry, can't think of another way of putting this) stand up for herself when Huntress was confronting her. She was questioning herself and looking at herself to see if what Huntress was saying was true, because up until then she wasn't completely aware of it...but deep down, in the place she keeps things she doesn't like to admit, she knew it was true.

[YoGo]

Next arc...we see what comes NEXT.

Gail

Ok, im trying to avoid every other post in this thread since I havent got hold of BOP #80 yet.

But I just want to say that for all you speculators out there, *major spoilers*

Gail IS obviously referring to my guest appearance in BOP #81. It's the biggest thing since Supes and Muhammed Ali got in the ring together. :eek:

[TCJohnson]

Yeah, yeah, yawn. Get a cameo in a frickin' J-Bolt movie and then I will be impressed!

[YoGo]

Try giving me an actual date for shooting to start and I will be impressed! :D

[Ian Boothby]

Let me throw it open...does anyone else here, aside from Mia, think that the Birds are idiots now?



Your Birds was the only book in which Oracle wasn't an idiot. In almost every other book she was in a tank top crying over someone not taking her seriously.

Canary was just a Green Arrow sidekick who he happened to be sleeping with.

And Huntress... well no one's really seemed to know how to write her before you. She was all over the map.

So no, they aren't idiots, this is one of the most fully rounded books out there. Books like Identitiy Crisis are like sweeps week, someone gets married, someone dies, Arnold's catches fire, another kid on Little House on the Prairie goes blind, it's all stunts while BOP is just good storytelling.

[TCJohnson]

That's a great post. I'm glad you wrote it so I don't have to! :)

Gail


Hey! Wait a minute!!!!!!! Why would you be writing a post about my girlfriend coming over and snuggling with you?!?!?!?!

[Mia]

Mia, I know you've had a grudge against Bop since issue #68 at least, but I'm sorry, the idealized Huntress you have in your mind isn't the character that DC's been publishing, since well before I showed up. I'm sorry, but it's true.

First of all I have never seen Huntress as an idealized character. I don't know what I have said or posted to give you that impression. She has faults aplenty. And it's one of the reasons I love her. I don't like perfect characters. It's one of the reasons I could never cotton on to Superman or Wonder Woman. I find them annoying and irritating. Batman, Huntress, Daredevil, Emma Frost. Are some of my favourite characters. And God knows all of them have problems. I hate perfect characters. Always have and most likely always will.


The Huntress I have in my mind is a woman with serious emotional problems who is given to fly off the handle. Who is touchy and often lets' her pride get in the way of what is good for her. Who respects herself tremendously. Who will not put up with people’s nonsense. Who refuses to be a victim of life and has very good heart. This was the character that Chuck Dixon, Doug Moench, Greg Rucka and Jeph Loeb wrote about.


Yes you are right, I have had serious problems with this book, or rather your characterization of Huntress ever since issue 68. Or to be precise issues #68-73. Your treatment of the character has flown in the face of the work that previous authors have done with her. Specifically Chuck Dixon, Greg Rucka, Doug Moench and Jeph Loeb.

My goal, and I THINK this is the problem both of you have, has never been to make Oracle a perfect untouchable goddess, as Static wants, or Huntress into an elegant and unerring lady of the manor, as it seems Mia wants. Those aren't the characters I was given, and they're not the characters I'm interested in.


Once again I don’t know what I have posted to give you the impression that I want Huntress to be “an unerring lady of the manor”. What I would like is for Huntress to be portrayed the same way she was before like the authors I mentioned above. And I don’t see that, or much of it, in your treatment of the character. But I would like to argue that you were given an “elegant character”. Under the pen of Dixon and Rucka, Huntress did have class. If you weren’t interested in a character like that. Then why didn’t you say so at the start of your run, So that I could drop the book? If your plan all along was to turn Huntress into a cynical wanton who lets others treat her like dirt all along then why didn’t you say so, so I could drop the book at the start of your run? Because frankly Gail I have no interest in investing time and money on a woman like this. Especially when I can get it for free from watching Sex and The City re-runs on tv. And I just want to end by saying that if your Huntress had been the consistant portrayal of the character all along. Then she wouldn’t be one of my favourite characters today. And I wouldn’t be investing time and money reading a comic book about a character I don’t like. And have no respect for.


When I think of the history of all three characters, it's ridiculously easy to find stories where they were each treated like dishrags and psycho bitches. They certainly didn't have some mythical, shining history of dignified portrayal that I came along and ruined just to be mean, and to be honest, I'm baffled as to where such a notion even comes from.


I think neither Static (my soul mate) and I have insinuated that none of the women are imperfect. Each of them clearly have their faults and their virtues. But at least from reading your treatment and interpretation of Huntress you destroyed her virtues. First of all there was the entire date incident with Josh. I won’t debate whether or not that’s him in the last panel in issue 68. But the old Huntress wouldn’t have put up with his nonsense for two seconds. Second, again with issue 68 why is she standing around and letting Dinah and Barbara lay into her like that. Especially given her rough teenage life? Why is it that your Huntress is suddenly letting Dinah and Barbara treat her like this? What happened to the dignity she had before? Third, the lack of faith and her whole “Churches make me uncomfortable speech”. Where the heck did that come from? You claimed that she gave up religion at the end of CFB. Just to confirm what you said, I went to Greg Rucka and actually asked him why she threw her cross in the water at the end of HCFB. If it was because she gave up religion. He told me no she hadn’t given up religion and she threw it in the water due to guilt. Also like I pointed out in Batman:Family, which took place after HCFB (she’s still in the old costume and the cross is gone) Huntress was seen attending Catholic Mass.



I am sorry if my complaints upset you and you feel that I am speaking out of turn. But much like Huntress, Emma, and Batman tact is not my forte and insincere flattery is against my nature. Please feel free to ignore my comments if you like, After all I am just one person. And I am certain that there are many people here (as well as on the DC Board) who will tell you what you what you want to hear.

[Dry Observer]

I think if you go back, you'll see that this pre-dates any crossovers. It's not part of any tie-ins. I don't want to say more at this point, obviously.

Here's the funky thing for me, Gail. Normally I never get anything in a mystery story (a little science, maybe, but that's it). It's like I have a mental block with mysteries. (Which, given that I was even terrified by mystery play on The Muppet Show as a kid, might just be the case... =) ) I just sit back and enjoy.

But in this case, I saw from the first that Barbara's missions could have the potential for rehabilitating Helena. And I assumed, especially when they went after the super-vigilantes, that this was an unspoken part of her agenda -- though one that went hand-in-hand with genuine missions that needed to be done.

The thing is, the one thing that surprised/threw/flabbergasted me was Barbara's reaction. I could see Helena flying off the handle, or Dinah showing some confusion and consternation, but Barbara? Reading that scene, I wasn't sure if she was embarrassed about being found out or if at some level she hadn't realized "how manipulative" she was being.

The funny thing is, I didn't see her actions as all that underhanded. It took her a while to really bring Huntress on board, in part because Oracle needed to know how trustworthy Helena was. During the cult saga, Huntress tries to kill somebody... admittedly to see if that would head off a mass-suicide of hundreds, but still, she tries and would have done so if her crossbow, by luck or fate, hadn't jammed.

Given how strongly the Bat-characters all feel about killing people, this has to raise serious questions in Barbara's mind about how far she can be trusted. I mean, Helena walks around with a loaded, deadly weapon with which she is tremendously accurate. And she's apparently killed before. And just tried to do so again.

Was it manipulative to get Huntress out of Gotham? Maybe, but personally I thought they all needed a break from Gotham, Helena just needed it the most.

But as far as the vigilantes were concerned... the Birds were imminently suited to handling that problem. Come on, confronting supervillainesses? And possibly reforming one or two of them? Guy Gardner can't handle all the sensitive, touchy-feely stuff, people.

And the one success they got was no small potatoes. A teen who can tap/duplicate the magical powers of any character on DC Earth is the definition of a heavy hitter. Getting her under control and under counselling by the other major magical heroes is a huge score.

But at any rate, Oracle really did need a chance to assess whether or not Helena was going snap under pressure. And how committed she was to the path of the ruthless vigilante. So yes, those three missions gave Barbara a chance to gauge her new Bird's state of mind.

That doesn't mean she can't feel guilty. To me it was far more interesting to see how Oracle perceives her own actions, and how she possibly perceives them in hindsight. But they looked very rational to me at the time, and I always assumed she was setting things up on any number of occasions.

And TC, yes, I'm familiar with teachers (my sister is one, and many clients) and very familiar with accepted methods to deal with troubled kids in a kind and caring manner.

Best,

Gail

Let me add, while a very big Birds fan, probably the one thing I like best is how you can write believable, intelligent characters along a whole range of ability -- from average-but-competent-at-their-job, to extremely bright, to genius-plus (Barbara), to the odd superintelligence.

That's not easy to do. Most people who write the extremely intelligent fall back on technobabble, or making the other characters look like idiots, or having just one or two bright characters who absorb all the writer's skill just to operate at their normal level. The range of well-realized character voices you employ is impressive.

I have a whole review of your first BoP graphic novel which goes into this, and which I'll put up on my blog, so I won't say more now. But I really appreciate the effort. =)

Ralph
Future Imperative (http://futureimperative.blogspot.com/)

[Indigo Al]

What I think is interesting is how Batman tried this very thing already by putting Helena in the Big Seven JLA, but she backslid even further.

I have to say, I initially lacked sympathy for Huntress when I read the issue. My gut reaction was "So? Suck it up and accept the fact that the mission - cleaning superhero house - is a very good one".

But considering the sense of peace and belonging Helena was starting to develop as a BoP, I now see why she was so upset and her temper flared.

What I hope is that Oracle doesn't develop a "Mother Hen for broken superheroines" habit. And I'm sure she won't after this story plays out.

Now then: are we gonna get an interim BoP while Helena takes a break? Possibly.....oh let's say....VIXEN PLEASE!?

[Kyuubi]

What I think is interesting is how Batman tried this very thing already by putting Helena in the Big Seven JLA, but she backslid even further.

I have to say, I initially lacked sympathy for Huntress when I read the issue. My gut reaction was "So? Suck it up and accept the fact that the mission - cleaning superhero house - is a very good one".

But considering the sense of peace and belonging Helena was starting to develop as a BoP, I now see why she was so upset and her temper flared.

What I hope is that Oracle doesn't develop a "Mother Hen for broken superheroines" habit. And I'm sure she won't after this story plays out.

Now then: are we gonna get an interim BoP while Helena takes a break? Possibly.....oh let's say....VIXEN PLEASE!?


If Huntress is going to be gone a while, then I hope Gail does what she's doing in the next arc, getting a bunch of different super-heroes like Wildcat to work with them.

[Pixies Chick]

...What I would like is for Huntress to be portrayed the same way she was before like the authors I mentioned above. And I don’t see that, or much of it, in your treatment of the character. But I would like to argue that you were given an “elegant character”. Under the pen of Dixon and Rucka, Huntress did have class. If you weren’t interested in a character like that. Then why didn’t you say so at the start of your run, So that I could drop the book? If your plan all along was to turn Huntress into a cynical wanton who lets others treat her like dirt all along then why didn’t you say so, so I could drop the book at the start of your run? ....

Mia, sometimes the most interesting characters are the ones that test themselves and change.

I've noticed that in real life, sometimes it's the most rigidly held beliefs that fall completely away. The straight-laced kids go a little wild when they first hit the kegger. Once they've done the thing that they never thought they'd do, and survive, they dive in whole hog. Any crack opens a flood. But it doesn't last. Of comicbook characters, I think Dick Grayson is a classic example. He was pretty virginal. "I don't think I could make love to a woman I didn't love." He wouldn't continue to see Starfire after she was forced into a political marriage, even though they loved each other. When his marriage to Starfire fell through, he was a changed man. He's more sexually active. He even married someone to solve a case. How's that for a turnaround? But most of the time, people spring back to who they really are at heart. Is there any doubt that Dick will be a perfectly monogamous husband, or that he'll raise his kids with conservative values?

So Helena isn't the reticent woman who would attend the opera solo anymore. She's been through some traumatic events. She's acting out, and she's finding her footing while integrating some awful information about what she and the world are capable of. Chances are, she'll find her way back to who she really is. That's what makes this particular kick off the cliff so compelling.

[Pixies Chick]

Canary was just a Green Arrow sidekick who he happened to be sleeping with.

Speedy was Green Arrow's sidekick, and Olle never slept with him.

Canary was a woman with whom he had a tempestuous affair. They were also colleagues. Unlike some superhero couples, they were not joined at the hip when they weren't... uh, joined at the hip.

Canary couldn't have been Green Arrow's sidekick. She was around before he was. She was more skilled, better connected, and a much better fighter and detective. Green Arrow was the upstart.

The retcon gave the better personality to Mama Bird, but still, Dinah was a respected hero in her own right.

[Mia]

Pixie....
You're a fine woman. Thanks for the clarification.

[Pixies Chick]

Why, I don't think I've ever been called that before. I'm nonplussed.

[Dry Observer]

Let me throw it open...does anyone else here, aside from Mia, think that the Birds are idiots now?

Not even remotely. As I said before, I've got a whole review on Of Like Minds which gushes unabashedly at your ability to portray highly intelligent characters, be they interacting as friends, directly at loggerheads, or anywhere in between.

Barbara, Dinah and Helena, while all having different strengths, strike me as really, really smart. Barbara obviously has the greatest technical knowledge and a photographic memory, but is often cut off from her emotions (at least to a degree). Dinah, on the other hand, while having minimal computer skills, is very empathic and very good at judging and working with people. As well as being an incredible athlete and martial artist. Helena is way, way above average in both her technical skills (especially in areas like infiltration and surveillance) and her athletic abilities (especially in combat and even more so in the standard Bat-acrobatic/freerunning abilities). But she has major issues, too, especially with anger and her relationships.

These basic characteristics aren't set in stone... in fact, overcoming their worst instincts can be a great source of dramatic tension. But they do help define three women who are flawed but nonetheless extraordinary.

Disclaimer: Since I'm more interested in cool, interesting and preferably bright people who can actually accomplish something with their lives, rather than yet another angst-fest... I am indeed prejudiced. Sue me. =)

When I think of the history of all three characters, it's ridiculously easy to find stories where they were each treated like dishrags and psycho bitches. They certainly didn't have some mythical, shining history of dignified portrayal that I came along and ruined just to be mean, and to be honest, I'm baffled as to where such a notion even comes from.

While I tend to deliberately ignore truly awful stories about a character, at some point you have to look at the overall history if you're going to draw on it for guidance. And given that most major comic book characters have an awful lot of history, most of them have stumbled at one point or another. (Sometimes right off a cliff, but that's another story.)

As for the Secret Files story, respectfully, I thought it was a nice story, but it was by a first-time writer not in contact with Chuck or myself, and I didn't believe it portrayed Babs' thought processes accurately even at the time. It's much easier to follow Chuck's progression of Canary from directionless (but talented) wanderer to a more focused agent. My run intentionally moves that arc further along, as well as the burgeoning friendship between Oracle and Canary that he set up. I have tried very hard to do a book that continues the themes of Chuck's work, because I believe it's a cheat to the readers, characters and former creators to just pretend that they began the moment I took over. If you look at the entire Chuck run, there's a very cool progression of movement for the characters, and that's one of my favorite parts about what he accomplished. Certainly we've had some tonal movements, but I absolutely believe Chuck's work and my work are part of one, bigger story.

Yeah, I generally refuse to take one-shot storylines by people who haven't even written the main comic as gospel. In part because there's just too many random one-shots like that out there.

Personally, I do see this comic as a further evolution of the best elements I saw in it under Dixon. And I'd imagine he's very pleased with what's happened to his comic since he left. It's very easy for even a great concept to falter in the hands of a new writer, especially one who isn't committed to that original vision.

I think Gail's committed to the best aspects of these characters, so what more could you ask for?

Best,

Gail

Look, look! She wished her best! And she's talking to meeeee!!!!!

Oh, wait -- she means that other person. Nevermind. <Sigh>
=)

Ralph
Future Imperative (http://futureimperative.blogspot.com/)

[Dry Observer]

Why, I don't think I've ever been called that before. I'm nonplussed.

Dude? You mean you're not a woman? Man, I was so convinced...

Well, shoot then... we oughta cut you in on all the secret guy stuff around here -- the poker games and bowling nights even Gail doesn't know about.

Hang on, I'll find that there schedule. <Brushes some Cheetos crumbs off a stack of huntin' and fishin' magazines. Digs under pile>

Here we go. I'll zap that right on over to ya, buddy. Can't have The Others seein' it.

Ralph (Dude, you're sure you're not a woman? 'Cause this is some pretty top secret stuff...) =)

Future Imperative (http://futureimperative.blogspot.com/)

[Monkey Boy]

I liked the book. Huntress is my favorite BoP character but I'm not going to complain. I'll still pick up the book ever month as usual. Look, Gail has done some things in the past that has made me stop and think What is she doing but then everything turns out to be okay in the end. Never again will I question anything she does.

[Indigo Al]

Pixie....
You're a fine woman. Thanks for the clarification.
And Brandie ... you're a fine girl... do doo doo doo doo doo dooo dododoo

[Ian Boothby]

Speedy was Green Arrow's sidekick, and Olle never slept with him.

Canary was a woman with whom he had a tempestuous affair. They were also colleagues. Unlike some superhero couples, they were not joined at the hip when they weren't... uh, joined at the hip.

Canary couldn't have been Green Arrow's sidekick. She was around before he was. She was more skilled, better connected, and a much better fighter and detective. Green Arrow was the upstart.

The retcon gave the better personality to Mama Bird, but still, Dinah was a respected hero in her own right.

There was her time in the Justice League when she (and everyone) was played for laughs but aside from that and a couple of Brave and Bold Team Ups she was more often than not seen with Green Arrow and he was the lead in that relationship. She'd be there complaining about something he did to give him more drama but until Birds she wasn't really a full character on her own. The potential was there but never fufilled.
She was a plus one when she was with Arrow and in better artisitic hands now.

[MacQuarrie]

Excuse me? I don't know which motivational speakers, ministers or psychiatrists you know who use these techniques. But if those who do should loose their liscences to practices very quick. I've listened to motivational speakers and ministers and none of them have employed the methods that Barbara has.
What methods? Sorry, I don't see all this alleged "manipulation." Did Barbara manufacture fake missions to send Huntress on? Did she present false information about the nature of those missions? In retrospect, is there a single one of the missions that you now think they shouldn't have taken on? Of course not.

At worst, one could argue that Barbara exploited the situations that came up in order to further her secondary agenda of fixing Helena. That's a far cry from the kind of manipulation Locke pulls on "Lost" every week.

When did Barbara tell Helena what to think? When did she use friendship as a weapon or bargaining chip? When did she threaten to withhold that friendship if Helena got out of line? She didn't. At worst, she chose worthwhile missions that had the added benefit of making Helena confront some of her demons. That hardly constitutes "treating her like a child." It's actually more like giving her challenges. Barbara knew Huntress could handle the challenges and that they would force her to grow, while at the same time taking down genuine evils like Sovereign, Harvest and Thorn. Again, how is this a bad thing?


Pardon me. But I don't know which character you are talking about. But that isn't Huntress. Huntress lost her innocence at eight years old when her entire family. Mother, Father and brother were gunned down before her eyes. The same way that Batman ceased to be a child at 8 years (or whatever the official age is) when his parents died. Hate to say it but Helena became an adult when she was 8 as well. Helena Bertinelli never had a childhood. When her parents died. She went to live with assasins in Sicily. She lived on a farm with her Uncle, Aunt and Cousine. She helped her Aunt out, she did chores, she had a tutor. She did not grow up with other kids. Later on after years of having horrible nightmares. Her cousine and uncle taught her how to be an assasin so that she could defend herself. Years later after having finishing her post secondary education. She returns to the US. Gets a job teaching. And decides to put all of her skills to use helping those who can't help