Ultimates 2 #4 (Spoilers)

[Brian888]

I haven't read the whole issue yet, but let me just say that if Gunnar Golmen isn't Loki, I'll eat my hat.


This is another great issue in a great series.

[Brian888]

Oh, and is that Ultron that Pym is working on at the bottom of the second page? I think it is.


EDIT - I'd also like to add that I hope Thor beats the Ultimates like a drum. I know that won't happen, because the story arc demands that he be captured and then freed when Loki reveals himself. But I want to see Thor put the hurt on Cap really, really badly.

[lonewolf23k]

I dunno... I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out that Gunnar...


...is telling the truth.

[Brian888]

I dunno... I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out that Gunnar...


...is telling the truth.


That would be a pretty incredible twist, but my gut tells me he's Loki. I could be wrong, though (and it would be pretty cool if you end up being right).

[CaptMagellan]

"I dunno... I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out that Gunnar...


...is telling the truth."

The main reason I'd be surprised (other than the fact that Gunnar is in the background in the scene where Thor is talking to Volstagg) is that it would really ruin the chances of having an Ultimate Thor franchise in the future.

Despite interesting ways of getting there, pretty much all the Ultimate versions of the 616 characters are pretty much in the same shape as their classic premises.

Even the Hulk now is set up to be in his 'classic' scenario - the fugitive on the run from the military trying to find a cure.

Having Thor really be insane would really put a number on his future potential.

And at one point, that was considered when Millar in an interview thought that the idea of Neil Gaiman writing an Ultimate Thor series/mini would be a great idea.

[Brian888]

And Gunnar's wearing green as well.


But I still want to see Thor hand Cap his ass on a platter.


By the way, does anyone else think that Janet might be getting a little fed up/bored with Cap? She doesn't seem to be reacting well to his refusal to "get with the times," as it were.

[lonewolf23k]

The main reason I'd be surprised (other than the fact that Gunnar is in the background in the scene where Thor is talking to Volstagg) is that it would really ruin the chances of having an Ultimate Thor franchise in the future.

*Doublechecks Ultimates 2 #1* By Odin's Beard... You're right. :eek:

Ok... I seriously don't know what to think anymore...

[CaptMagellan]

"But I still want to see Thor hand Cap his ass on a platter."

Yup. And I want to see Thor transport them all to Asgard (or any of the other nine worlds) where their tiny minds start to boil as they meet other gods, giants, etc. in their native worlds.

[Brian888]

"But I still want to see Thor hand Cap his ass on a platter."

Yup. And I want to see Thor transport them all to Asgard (or any of the other nine worlds) where their tiny minds start to boil as they meet other gods, giants, etc. in their native worlds.


Heh. Have Cap try to talk down to Odin and see how well that goes. :D

Actually, if the Ultimates thought about it for a second, they should realize that Thor's telling the truth. Remember the Skrull bomb? The Skrulls said that that thing was powerful enough to destroy the entire solar system (IIRC). Well, Gunnar/Loki said that the hammer was designed to be able to teleport the user anywhere on Earth. He didn't say anything about the hammer having the power to traverse dimensions, nor should it be able to with current Ultimate Earth tech (Ultimate Reed seems to be the only one who has figured out how to get to different dimensions so far). But dimensional travel is really the only viable explanation of how Thor got rid of the Skrull bomb without it blowing up the entire solar system. So Gunnar's probably lying.

[Beast]

I loved the issue a lot. And I'm certain that Gunnar is a lieing sack of poo. He has to really be Loki, just by the fact he passes by in the background of Ultimates 2 #1. The weird creepy lil smile he offers to the reader, just as Volstagg goes away and it makes Thor look like a nutcase. Love every minute of it, and can't wait for next issue. Though it's sorta weird if Black Widow ends up being War Machine. Though it is an intresting new take on the classic 616 version of both characters. :)

[RonnieThunderbolts]

C'mon eagle eyes! You people haven't noticed yet????... not ONLY was he in issue 1, he's in THIS issue with the protestors when Thor comes to their aid, the bottom left corner of the first page of the protest (page # 10 counting the intro/ re-cap page). It is definiately Gunnar, and he's still in green :) Why would the guy who invented all that Thor crap and WORKS for the people making super soldiers protest them? He is most certainly Loki... if he's not, well, I'll be not shocked, or disappointed, but a little annoyed.

[Doom Hammer]

Heh. Have Cap try to talk down to Odin and see how well that goes. :D

Actually, if the Ultimates thought about it for a second, they should realize that Thor's telling the truth. Remember the Skrull bomb? The Skrulls said that that thing was powerful enough to destroy the entire solar system (IIRC). Well, Gunnar/Loki said that the hammer was designed to be able to teleport the user anywhere on Earth. He didn't say anything about the hammer having the power to traverse dimensions, nor should it be able to with current Ultimate Earth tech (Ultimate Reed seems to be the only one who has figured out how to get to different dimensions so far). But dimensional travel is really the only viable explanation of how Thor got rid of the Skrull bomb without it blowing up the entire solar system. So Gunnar's probably lying.

EXACTLY! I could not stop thinking about this! If his hammer only allows earthly teleportation, then where's the giant galaxy-eating bomb? And more importantly, why didn't the Ultimates think of that?!

I'm in love with Black Widow's Iron Man suit. Such a derivation from the MU, and such a good one. Plus...Tony's getting married.

[I'm Right Your Wrong!]

I agree that this was a great story. (Exept for shield, an organization of earths most intelligent people were not able to think of the Thor thing already mentioned above.) But the millions of people spelling out will you marry me was very touching. And all of the other super soldiers was really cool and I hope that they have more importance somtime in comics someday. I also really liked Black Widows armor and I liked the name Iron Maiden too. :D

[lonewolf23k]

All right, I have to admit, I'm getting more convinced... Just to make sure, I went back to Issue #2, to check out the club scene.. And while I didn't see any green clothes, At the bottom of page 16 (counted with the recap, like Ronnie did), in the fifth panel, behind the girl preparing to spit on Cap, I could swear the guy's face looks like Gunnar's. And I thought I saw him again on page 18, panel 3, in the crowd while Thor tries to convince Cap again.

Again, while there's no green clothing (due perhaps to the lighting), the face and hair does strike me as similar to Gunnar's...

Ultimate Loki... Mythology's answer to Where's Waldo...

[lonewolf23k]

I agree that this was a great story. (Exept for shield, an organization of earths most intelligent people were not able to think of the Thor thing already mentioned above.) But the millions of people spelling out will you marry me was very touching. And all of the other super soldiers was really cool and I hope that they have more importance somtime in comics someday. I also really liked Black Widows armor and I liked the name Iron Maiden too. :D

Well, we can assume that if it's Loki messing with their minds, they're probably buying the "four-dimensional engine" bit and thinking that the teleportation works through different dimensions, which is where the explosive got dumped.

Again, this is assuming that Loki's pulling a Jedi Mindtrick on them, which wouldn't surprise me one bit.

[Sweet Baby Blue]

Great Issue!! Gunnar has to be Loki, the restaurant and protest cameos have me convinced. But I really never want to see Black Widow in that armor again, yecccccch!

Oh Yeah, Clint with a wife and kids.... kind of cool.

[Karl J. Barnes]

Predictions for issue 5: Thor wipes the floor with most of the Ultimates, until Wanda does her thing proving that she should be on the team. Reason being, I'm sick and tired of her and Pietro just standing around like maniquins.

[Beast]

Predictions for issue 5: Thor wipes the floor with most of the Ultimates, until Wanda does her thing proving that she should be on the team. Reason being, I'm sick and tired of her and Pietro just standing around like maniquins.
I'm sick and tired of all they're being used for is some sort of freaky brother/sister relationship that Millar seems to enjoy writing way too much. :)

[RonnieThunderbolts]

Sure, we don't SEE a lot of Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch... But in the Ultimate War and the Ultimates series one Pietro and Wanda revealed that their contribution, while not visible, is there. The nature of Wanda's abilities, to effect probability in the team's favor, and Pietro's faster than the human eye powers aren't the slam bang action fest in this 'realistic' series. They are behind the scenes type of guys (although they could certainly do the bullet-time kind of slow-mo to show Pietro in action.) But seriously, it'd better be Loki... cause I love Ultimate Thor, I just do! He's like an ultra-powerful/ ultra-proactive Dude from the Big Lebowski, and that just tickles me. Yeah, Ultimate Loki as Where's Waldo is funny stuff, very funny stuff.

[Aaron King]

I think Black Widow's evil.

[Karl J. Barnes]

I think Black Widow's evil.

I see her marrying Tony as a way for Shield to have a stronger hold on Stark Industries.

[TJ Shoun]

Gunnar's gotta be Loki.

If not I'll be pissed cuz the idea of a technology-driven Thor is about appealing as a slab of rotten bologna.

Nobody wants to read about an Earth-born Thor who's got a friggin' mechanical hammer. Ugh! And what scares me is that that's exactly something that Millar would do, just to disguise a bone-headed character idea under the pretense of being crafty and slick.

For the most part I like Millar... but he sure has no reservations about adding unappealing qualities to existing 616'ers.

The splash of Thor with hammer, in the rain, telling crowd control to leave the demonstrators alone... yeah, I wanna statue o' that, Mr. Bowen.

Get to work... Thanks. :cool:

[pureclint]

It has to be Loki for one reason....no way do I buy NORWAY out super sciencing the rest of the world. Yeah we all know the UK, Germany and the napoleon complexed France would want Norway to make the "leader" and the "most powerful Super Soldier".
On top of that knowing Millar's real world leanings I highly doubt he would make the leftish voice in the book Crazy.


Any way I look foward to the fight next issue; Cap should do well he did go toe to toe with the Hulk.

[C.O. Jones]

I wonder if Hawkeye's wife has the same name as Mockingbird? (Barbara?)

If Gunnar IS Loki, why go to all the trouble of creating the id of a research scientist just to get at Thor? Plus, if he really IS Loki and Thor IS a real god, then why does Thor seem to study a read-out of Pietro's movements in his hammer and we're shown an image/panel of a rapidly-moving object being tracked? It COULD be the satellite's image that Shield uses to track Thor, but I dunno...

[discostu]

I wonder if Hawkeye's wife has the same name as Mockingbird? (Barbara?)

If Gunnar IS Loki, why go to all the trouble of creating the id of a research scientist just to get at Thor? Plus, if he really IS Loki and Thor IS a real god, then why does Thor seem to study a read-out of Pietro's movements in his hammer and we're shown an image/panel of a rapidly-moving object being tracked? It COULD be the satellite's image that Shield uses to track Thor, but I dunno...
could be the black widow up in the sky looking down on thor and quicksilver.

[lboinyamouf4sho]

thor is the most interesting character in the ultimate universe to me right now, can't wait to see the big battle next issue. can it live up to the battle with the hulk??

[Red State Cap]

The signals are a little mixed:
Yes, the appearance of "Gunnar" in the restaurant in Ultimates 2#1 would seem to pretty clearly foreshadow that he is, in fact, Loki. Add to that, the fact that Norway, with limited financial means, is somehow able to develop a technological suit that dwarfs the abilities that everyone else has come up with, including Tony Stark. Also, the Ultimates and Shield did screw up in not noticing that the "supposed" technological hammer shouldn't be able to teleport the bomb far enough away.
HOWEVER: Gunnar's deception would also require the willing cooperation of the entire European Super-Soldier Program. Hundreds of people. Probably some, if not all, the Euro supermen. Also, "Loki" himself would have everything to gain by letting "Thor" continue to build his religious cult, and everything to lose by doing something to jeopardise the new "Thor" cult. Despite the fact that he is supposed to be the god of mischief, even he should be able to see his own self-interest.
I'm sure Mr. Millar will give the Ultimate Cap haters what they want, since the next issue cover has Thor holding Cap's and Iron Man's helmets. That said, Cap is twice the man that hippie dirtbag will ever be. So, take your Cap-hate, put a little mustard on it, and eat it.

Regards,
RSC

[StoneGold]

It has to be Loki for one reason....no way do I buy NORWAY out super sciencing the rest of the world. Yeah we all know the UK, Germany and the napoleon complexed France would want Norway to make the "leader" and the "most powerful Super Soldier".

As opposed to, say, as in the regular MU, all the great super science coming out of a tiny Eastern European country.

That said, I'm just enjoying the ride.

[Moses]

I wouldn't say I hate U. Cap, but I do find Thor more interesting, and I'd back him in the fight between the two, not because of any paranoia-baiting anti-US agenda, but because I think that it would make for more interesting character interaction in the issues to come. Here's Cap, the finest soldier Humanity has ever produced, getting tossed about like a hotel heiress in a home video by someone with vastly different ideologies, who if proved right about his evil God-Brother, will no doubt be lining up beside him in 2 or 3 issues time! How do you think that's going got make him feel? If Cap beats Thor this early into the Ultimates existence (Cap should beat Thor in a fight sometime, just not at this moment in time) it's just going to de-mystify Thor when what the story really needs a little mysticism and suspension of disbelief. I've always loved U.Thor because whilst everyone else is more cynical and savvy than their MU counterparts, Thor is still this otherworldly God, this guy who you expect to have some sort of more solid grounding in the real world, but is still doing miracles and things that defy proper explanation. If Thor's revealed to be some wacko, it'll just take away that edge I liked. TBH, I want to be kept guessing on whether he's immortal or not, that's the appeal, you WANT to believe he's this omnipotent god, but him getting thrown a beating at this point would just take the character in the wrong direction.

With that said, I think Cap's going to become a much more interesting character. With mentions in this arc of The Ultimates being used by SHIELD as a pre-emptive strike force and a few things I remember from a newsarama interview with Millar, you can see that their could soon be conflict between the ideals that Cap adheres to and what he's being asked to carry out in the name of America. I think Cap's more reactive than proactive, and I think being asked to carry out various operations because someone MIGHT prove to be a threat is going to really make him think.

[Brian888]

The signals are a little mixed:
Yes, the appearance of "Gunnar" in the restaurant in Ultimates 2#1 would seem to pretty clearly foreshadow that he is, in fact, Loki. Add to that, the fact that Norway, with limited financial means, is somehow able to develop a technological suit that dwarfs the abilities that everyone else has come up with, including Tony Stark. Also, the Ultimates and Shield did screw up in not noticing that the "supposed" technological hammer shouldn't be able to teleport the bomb far enough away.
HOWEVER: Gunnar's deception would also require the willing cooperation of the entire European Super-Soldier Program. Hundreds of people. Probably some, if not all, the Euro supermen. Also, "Loki" himself would have everything to gain by letting "Thor" continue to build his religious cult, and everything to lose by doing something to jeopardise the new "Thor" cult. Despite the fact that he is supposed to be the god of mischief, even he should be able to see his own self-interest.
I'm sure Mr. Millar will give the Ultimate Cap haters what they want, since the next issue cover has Thor holding Cap's and Iron Man's helmets. That said, Cap is twice the man that hippie dirtbag will ever be. So, take your Cap-hate, put a little mustard on it, and eat it.

Regards,
RSC



I don't hate Ultimate Cap because he's the American Super-Soldier, I hate him because he's a dick. So far, Thor is one of the few genuinely nice people in the book. Cap...not so much. Hopefully, as Moses points out, Cap will be getting more conflicted in the future, and he'll start opening up a little as a character.


BTW, congrats on noticing Loki at the protest. I missed that one completely! I am enjoying this little game of "spot the dude in green." :)

[lonewolf23k]

HOWEVER: Gunnar's deception would also require the willing cooperation of the entire European Super-Soldier Program. Hundreds of people. Probably some, if not all, the Euro supermen. Also, "Loki" himself would have everything to gain by letting "Thor" continue to build his religious cult, and everything to lose by doing something to jeopardise the new "Thor" cult. Despite the fact that he is supposed to be the god of mischief, even he should be able to see his own self-interest.

Actually, Volstagg and Thor both said that Loki is somehow re-writing reality. Essentially, Loki's used magic to manipulate the Euro Super-Soldier program and SHIELD into believing what he said.

As for "why would he do all this?" "What's he have to gain?" He's Loki! He's the Trickster God of Asgard! The satisfaction of messing with Thor's life alone is worth it...

[lonewolf23k]

Also...

...Am I the only one who likes Ultimate Cap? :confused:

Yes, I know what everyone says about him, but I don't see it that way at all. For all his gung-ho "action hero" attitude in the thick of action, he does have some strong qualities, like his loyalty to old friends.

[Brian888]

Also...

...Am I the only one who likes Ultimate Cap? :confused:

Yes, I know what everyone says about him, but I don't see it that way at all. For all his gung-ho "action hero" attitude in the thick of action, he does have some strong qualities, like his loyalty to old friends.


To me, that's more than counterbalanced by his willingness to shoot first and never ask questions. Cap just seems way too willing to believe whatever Fury and the rest of SHIELD tell him. He needs to start exercising those critical thinking skills. Also, he should probably tone down on things like crushing bouncers underneath heavy metal doors for no good reason, and putting muggers in the hospital when that level of force isn't really necessary.

[Lochdale]

To me, that's more than counterbalanced by his willingness to shoot first and never ask questions. Cap just seems way too willing to believe whatever Fury and the rest of SHIELD tell him. He needs to start exercising those critical thinking skills. Also, he should probably tone down on things like crushing bouncers underneath heavy metal doors for no good reason, and putting muggers in the hospital when that level of force isn't really necessary.

I fundamentally disagree. If anything, he has shown tremendous restraint in his dealings with most people. Moral prevarication will get a soldier killed. CA is working for an arm of a democratically elected, relatively humane government. Nothing he has done so far has been out of line. Perhaps his assault on Pym could be considered a vigilante activity but otherwise he as acted appropriately. Were he a bloodthirsty facists he would have killed all of those terrorists and not offered them a chance to surrender. Moreover, it is entirely unreasonable for you to expect him to question everything. You and I don't operate that way because we would never get anything done. I imagine you have a polticial disagreement with a character like CA but that does not mean he is some unthinking animal or a pawn.

[CaptMagellan]

"Also, "Loki" himself would have everything to gain by letting "Thor" continue to build his religious cult, and everything to lose by doing something to jeopardise the new "Thor" cult. Despite the fact that he is supposed to be the god of mischief, even he should be able to see his own self-interest."

Except that Loki, in the myths themselves, is known for working against his own self-interest - which is pretty consistent for trickster gods cross-culturally: they are catalysts of necessary change, the nature of which they may not even comprehend. Tricksters usually trick themselves worse than others. In both the myth of Idunn and her apples and the myth of Sif's hair Loki worked against his own best interest and the end result was that the gods were made stronger at the end of the story directly by Loki's actions to restore balance.

In the Idunn example, the myth ends with the death of the powerful enemy giant Thjiazi and, eventually, the inclusion of Thjiazi's powerful daughter Skadhi into the Aesir pantheon and in the example of Sif's hair the myth ends with not only Sif getting new hair but also Thor getting Mjollnir, Odin his spear and magic arm ring, Frey got his boat Skidbladnir and golden boar.

In the end of this story, if Millar is actually following the mythic pattern, my prediction is that Loki will inadvertantly help Thor's cause by proving through this conflict that Thor really is a god of thunder, the Ultimates will believe and support him, lending credence to his claims.

While in the background Loki will be spouting "And I would have gotten away with it too if it wasn't for those meddling super-soldiers."

[Brian888]

I fundamentally disagree. If anything, he has shown tremendous restraint in his dealings with most people. Moral prevarication will get a soldier killed. CA is working for an arm of a democratically elected, relatively humane government. Nothing he has done so far has been out of line. Perhaps his assault on Pym could be considered a vigilante activity but otherwise he as acted appropriately. Were he a bloodthirsty facists he would have killed all of those terrorists and not offered them a chance to surrender. Moreover, it is entirely unreasonable for you to expect him to question everything. You and I don't operate that way because we would never get anything done. I imagine you have a polticial disagreement with a character like CA but that does not mean he is some unthinking animal or a pawn.


Get serious. It is COMPLETELY unacceptable for anybody, including a US soldier, to break down a door, probably hurting the bouncer in the process, just to yell at someone else. Cap wasn't there to arrest anyone legally; he was just throwing around his weight, which unfortunately can lead to completely innocent people getting hurt. Or how about tearing apart a bar (and probably hurting even more people) just to get personal satisfaction?

Note that I never called Cap a "bloodthirsty Fascist." Your words, not mine. What I'm saying is that I don't like Cap's personality right now. Most of the time, he's too willing to just go along with whatever Fury says, even when it's patently shady or even borderline evil, and when he strikes out on his own, he tends to screw stuff up.

Do my political views influence my view of Ultimate Cap? Probably. But I still don't like him as a character.

[Indigo Al]

I love Ultimate Cap a lot. I believe he's a great and very complex character underneath it all, despite Millar's tacky antics. A noble man's man, patriot and warrior from the greatest generation. I don't think he's a fascist at all.

And I love Hippy Thor for exactly the same reasons, from his own leftist standpoint.

Plus, if I'm going to read a comic where improbable people do incredible things, and where most of the superheroes are messed up and morally dubious, I will thrill and rejoice when a rude, snotty annoying NYC nightclub bouncer on a power trip gets what's bloody well coming to him.

All that said, I desperately hope to god that the riddle of Thor NEVER gets resolved. I want it to be a mystery forever!!! That's what makes the character so fascinating. A rote explanation would be so.....dull. Are the Asgardians all in his head? Are they real? Is he just a norwegian super soldier? Does his insanity allow him to access superhuman powers? Is he a mutant? I don't wanna know. I wanna keep guessing.

Oh, and now we have Ultimate Jane Foster, former nurse turned revolutionary raver Thor groupie. Is she slated to become Valkyrie?

[Cash Lone]

To me, that's more than counterbalanced by his willingness to shoot first and never ask questions. Cap just seems way too willing to believe whatever Fury and the rest of SHIELD tell him. He needs to start exercising those critical thinking skills. Also, he should probably tone down on things like crushing bouncers underneath heavy metal doors for no good reason, and putting muggers in the hospital when that level of force isn't really necessary.

Muggers always need to be sent to the hospital via ambulance. Otherwise, I agree - Millar writes Cap a little bit too gung ho.

[KristyJo]

Also...

...Am I the only one who likes Ultimate Cap? :confused:

Yes, I know what everyone says about him, but I don't see it that way at all. For all his gung-ho "action hero" attitude in the thick of action, he does have some strong qualities, like his loyalty to old friends.

Ultimate Cap used to be my favorite... But God do I hate Jan, and now he lives with her? What? Captain America thinks there shouldn't be swearing in movies but he's "living in sin" with a woman who may still be technically married? :eek: Plus, she sure seemed to throw on the witch switch this issue. Maybe if I had seen their relationship evolve in the year that passed between volumes 1 and 2, I would buy their great love... UCK. And she thinks Cap's the lucky one? I wish Thor would beat the crap out of him, might knock some sense in to him. I've been trying to rationalize this relationship for four issues...

That being said, I totally buy Tasha and Tony. I didn't see their great romance evolve in said year, and maybe I find it weird that the "ladies man" wants to settle down and is going all out with the romantic genstures... but dude, it made the Black Widow cry, and I felt all mushy too, when those people spelled out his proposal. Who could've said no to that? Although I'm thinking they're not actually going to make it to the altar, Jarvis seems to be up to something...

As for all the "Where's Loki?" ... LOL... I missed him among the protesters, but that is so cool. I want Thor to be the real deal too, I was ready to scream when they said he was the Norwegian SuperSoldier. I hope that's not the case.

I also hope that Captain America stops being such a walking contradiction and a total jerk. But I'm thinking somewhere down the line all the contradictions and things will have to come to a head, and he'll have to figure some stuff out. And he will turn out to be the guy/character I always thought he was.

Anyway, can't wait to see what happens next.

[jade_nova]

I was a bit dissapointed with this issue. When they said the origin of Thor, I thought we would get a filler issue that dealt with Thor. It would show his life in Asgard and his time on Earth, maybe they will save that for the future mini. This was still a good issue. Hawkeye is a family man, the making of Ultron, a possible appearence of Loki. I want Thor to kick Captain America's ass in the next issue but Thor seems like the sort of person who would rather let Cap win than instigate things further. When are we going to see Ultron in his completed form. Everything else is happening real fast but not this.

[Lochdale]

Get serious. It is COMPLETELY unacceptable for anybody, including a US soldier, to break down a door, probably hurting the bouncer in the process, just to yell at someone else. Cap wasn't there to arrest anyone legally; he was just throwing around his weight, which unfortunately can lead to completely innocent people getting hurt. Or how about tearing apart a bar (and probably hurting even more people) just to get personal satisfaction?

Note that I never called Cap a "bloodthirsty Fascist." Your words, not mine. What I'm saying is that I don't like Cap's personality right now. Most of the time, he's too willing to just go along with whatever Fury says, even when it's patently shady or even borderline evil, and when he strikes out on his own, he tends to screw stuff up.

Do my political views influence my view of Ultimate Cap? Probably. But I still don't like him as a character.

The bouncer was clearly impeding him, CA was most likely upset that Thor (as he saw it) had divulged information that may well lead to a person's death. He was clearly upset. Witness, however, his restraint when he was spat upon by the club goers. Clearly your political views influence your views on this character. You may not like him but have the intellectual honesty to accept that your own political leanings are a facet of that dislike.

[Brian888]

The bouncer was clearly impeding him, CA was most likely upset that Thor (as he saw it) had divulged information that may well lead to a person's death. He was clearly upset. Witness, however, his restraint when he was spat upon by the club goers. Clearly your political views influence your views on this character. You may not like him but have the intellectual honesty to accept that your own political leanings are a facet of that dislike.



It would actually help if you read my posts before responding. I said that my political views probably do influence my views on Cap. I'm not denying anything.

Yes, I'm very impressed that the superhumanly-powerful Cap didn't attack and/or kill a bunch of teenagers for spitting on him. That's the patience of Job right there. :rolleyes: Honestly, if Cap is such a thug that we're singing his praises for not hurting people in such a circumstance, his entire status as a hero is perhaps questionable.

That's what I think of Cap: he's a thug. Granted, he's often a disciplined thug, especially on a mission. However, when he starts acting out, he doesn't seem to be too concerned with consequences. "Oh, the bouncer is giving me attitude? I'll kick this heavy metal door down so it falls on him, likely causing serious injury, all so I can go yell at somebody for being a traitor when I have not one shred of proof! Hank almost killed Janet? I'd better go kick the shit out of him. I'm not going to use my tactical brilliance to figure out how to do so without wrecking a city block, however." Such actions are cinematic, and make for exciting visuals, but they don't earn Cap any brownie points in my book.

Cap is brave, yes. But for me to start thinking of him as a hero, he needs to start bringing some wisdom and compassion to the table.

[Mike Smash!]

The bouncer was clearly impeding him, CA was most likely upset that Thor (as he saw it) had divulged information that may well lead to a person's death. He was clearly upset. Witness, however, his restraint when he was spat upon by the club goers. Clearly your political views influence your views on this character. You may not like him but have the intellectual honesty to accept that your own political leanings are a facet of that dislike.

Sounds like you're the one being clouded by your political views. "He got in my view" isn't an excuse for assault. Cap was on private property and if he really wanted in that badly, I'm sure Thor would have invited him in, had he known he was there.

Ultimate Cap isn't a monster, if anything, aside from Thor, he's the only person on the team that's shown the least bit of discomfort with the Hulk/Banner coverup, but it's true. The man doesn't even question morally ambiguous orders. It's one to thing to question in the heat of battle, it's another to go along with Banner's made-for-TV execution, all the while wishing it wouldn't happen, but doing nothing to stop it. They could have easily taken some of the blame for what Banner did and really go into the courtroom to defend him, as Fury stated in his lie. He also responds with violence in situations that don't require it -- like the bouncer and that was not a measured response.

Cap burst into a club, assaulting a man because he wanted to threaten someone who he had no proof against. He was likely to start throwing punches.

How did Thor respond, given that Cap has a history of beating up teammates who piss him off? He talked to him. He didn't raise his voice, and told him exactly what he thought and why it would be very stupid to try to fight him. And then he went into why he couldn't be the person to leak the Banner papers to the press. Cap responded by getting more angry.

And when Thor's groupies got out of line, Thor chastisted them and apologizes to Cap. He even offers his advice to the situation, which we now know was likely dead on.

Thor's my favorite, in part because of his politics, which are identical to mine. In another part because he's not written like the typical liberal superhero who's always angry and giving sermons. Aside from one incident (his followers getting out of hand), Thor has never raised his voice, threatened anyone and even when he says something radical, he does it calmly and politely. He even joined the team, refusing to take any of their money or to appear on Entertainment Weekly like the rest. He was just there to help if lives were in danger and he left when he couldn't associate with them anymore. And even after all the accusation, they've thrown his way, he still speaks of and to them with respect.

When Thor's followers got out of line, Thor apologized for them. Cap never apologized for the accusation or to that bouncer. That says a lot to me.

That's why I like Ultimate Thor, he's genuinely a nice guy and probably the morally cleanest character in the book.

[lonewolf23k]

I was a bit dissapointed with this issue. When they said the origin of Thor, I thought we would get a filler issue that dealt with Thor. It would show his life in Asgard and his time on Earth, maybe they will save that for the future mini. This was still a good issue. Hawkeye is a family man, the making of Ultron, a possible appearence of Loki. I want Thor to kick Captain America's ass in the next issue but Thor seems like the sort of person who would rather let Cap win than instigate things further. When are we going to see Ultron in his completed form. Everything else is happening real fast but not this.

Who knows... Perhaps they'll pull a "Supreme Power" and reveal that while Thor is human, the belt and hammer he wields really are the original articles. Making Thorlief "He who is Worthy to Wield the Power of Thor" in the Ultimateverse...

[Brian888]

Who knows... Perhaps they'll pull a "Supreme Power" and reveal that while Thor is human, the belt and hammer he wields really are the original articles. Making Thorlief "He who is Worthy to Wield the Power of Thor" in the Ultimateverse...


Now that's an interesting possibility. I like that idea.

[Mike Smash!]

Who knows... Perhaps they'll pull a "Supreme Power" and reveal that while Thor is human, the belt and hammer he wields really are the original articles. Making Thorlief "He who is Worthy to Wield the Power of Thor" in the Ultimateverse...Remember that Thor once said that he's known who he really was since he was 12 years old and the breakdown just made everything clear.

I'm guessing he's just Thor given human form by Odin.

[Red State Cap]

OK Brian888, if you are indicting Cap on the basis of hurting a bouncer at the club, then I want to hear you indict Thor 100 times over for hurting and/or killing 100 Italian police officers. Since you just read that issue, you must have seen it. But, what, no mention of that? I guess you can morally justify that one because you are a leftist, Thor is a leftist, and the demonstrators he was "protecting" were leftists. So that makes hurting or killing police fair.
Bottom line is you have a political axe to grind and you're doing it, conveniently ignoring the violent activities of who you term "morally the cleanest character." I'm laughing my ass off right now! At least be consistent, dude.
You've also indicted Cap on the basis of being too accepting of Fury. First, has there been a good reason so far NOT to have accepted what Fury has told them? Second, Cap is the only Ultimate to have given Fury ANY flack over the Banner situation, and you can tell he didn't like it at all.

RSC

[Kid Seven]

I thought this issue was another standout by Millar and Hitch. It's nice to have The Ultimates back on a semi-regular schedule as well.

The Loki storyline is getting really interesting. I kept on jumping back and forth on what I believed until I realized that 'Loki' had indeed popped up in a bunch of scenes previously. I also like the design of Natasha's armor, though I refuse to call it the Black Widow armor. I'm calling it War Machine; I don't care.

[lonewolf23k]

Agreed. At most, Cap does his job, personal feelings or no personal feelings. He obeys the orders he's given, and does his best to do the job as cleanly and as responsibly as possible. But obeying orders and agreeing with them are two different things.

[Brian888]

OK Brian888, if you are indicting Cap on the basis of hurting a bouncer at the club, then I want to hear you indict Thor 100 times over for hurting and/or killing 100 Italian police officers. Since you just read that issue, you must have seen it. But, what, no mention of that? I guess you can morally justify that one because you are a leftist, Thor is a leftist, and the demonstrators he was "protecting" were leftists. So that makes hurting or killing police fair.
Bottom line is you have a political axe to grind and you're doing it, conveniently ignoring the violent activities of who you term "morally the cleanest character." I'm laughing my ass off right now! At least be consistent, dude.
You've also indicted Cap on the basis of being too accepting of Fury. First, has there been a good reason so far NOT to have accepted what Fury has told them? Second, Cap is the only Ultimate to have given Fury ANY flack over the Banner situation, and you can tell he didn't like it at all.

RSC


I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you missed the part where the police were beating peaceful protestors down with clubs. Thor stopped them. Now, if you think the police SHOULD have been beating the protestors down with clubs, we have something to disagree about.

However, this is not the equivalent of Cap's actions that are mentioned above. An equivalent action by Cap would be his rescue of the hostages in Iraq. He was using quite a bit of the old violence there, but I think it was justified. He was trying to free hostages, and as Lochdale (I think) rightly pointed out, he didn't really go overboard there; he stopped when the hostages were safe. Good on Cap for that one.

Cap beating down a bouncer for, well, being a bouncer, and getting into a stupid fight with Hank, however, are different than both situations above. Cap and Thor did what they needed to do to protect people in the riot/hostage situation. Cap DIDN'T need to do what he did in the other examples; he was just lashing out, acting stupidly and in a thuggish fashion.

I'll grant you that Cap didn't seem too happy about the Banner trial, for about a page. He certainly didn't do anything about it, though. Would the 616 Cap have intervened? We'll never know, but I suspect he would have.

BTW, what are your politics?

[Mike Smash!]

OK Brian888, if you are indicting Cap on the basis of hurting a bouncer at the club, then I want to hear you indict Thor 100 times over for hurting and/or killing 100 Italian police officers. Since you just read that issue, you must have seen it. But, what, no mention of that? I guess you can morally justify that one because you are a leftist, Thor is a leftist, and the demonstrators he was "protecting" were leftists. So that makes hurting or killing police fair.
Bottom line is you have a political axe to grind and you're doing it, conveniently ignoring the violent activities of who you term "morally the cleanest character." I'm laughing my ass off right now! At least be consistent, dude.
You've also indicted Cap on the basis of being too accepting of Fury. First, has there been a good reason so far NOT to have accepted what Fury has told them? Second, Cap is the only Ultimate to have given Fury ANY flack over the Banner situation, and you can tell he didn't like it at all.

RSCJust to play Devil's Advocate. We see him send the cops flying, and destroys their cars, but we don't see a single death. And he did what he in defense of people who were being being beaten with batons completely unprovoked. Check the pages. Not a single demonstator is out of line when the cops start throwing tear gas and pistol whipping them.

And you seem to think that I somehow hate Ultimate Cap. No, I like the character alot. I just think he oversimplifies things sometimes, thinks with his fists when it's unneccessary and is prone to using more force than is required.

A big difference I see between the two characters is that Cap is quick to jump to conclusions while Thor isn't. He typically only steps in or raises his voice when someone is out of line.

And when his people are out of line, he reprimands them and apologizes. I've yet to see an apology from Cap over that incident with the bouncer or the remarks he made about Thor's followers not bathing. (a remark made BEFORE they started acting like morons).

And Brian's correct. Cap was well within reason in that hostage situation. He used force when it was needed and stopped when the danger was over. Don't tell me he couldn't have simply asked to see Thor and been invited in. Or he could have gotten into without assaulting someone.

"He got in my way" is not a defense.

Cap's not a bad guy and I'm not trying to paint him that way. He's a soldier and at times, a bit of a thug. But he's got a moral compass that I don't think picks up many shades of grey and ignores many of them coming from the team. And when he does acknowledge them, he quickly shrugs them off. He's a great character, but he is a bit of a dick at times.

I could never see regular Cap acting in the way he does. Nor would I want to.

[Mike Smash!]

Agreed. At most, Cap does his job, personal feelings or no personal feelings. He obeys the orders he's given, and does his best to do the job as cleanly and as responsibly as possible. But obeying orders and agreeing with them are two different things.Would it help to mention that the Thor confrontation was him disobeying orders?

[StoneGold]

There seems to be a lot of confusion surrounding UCap. A lot of transposing with regular Cap, a lot of people taking what they think he should be and projecting. When people talk about liking him despite Millar's writing... Millar is the only person who has written UCap. OK, a little bit of Bendis and Ellis as well, but mostly Millar. So, it's like one or the other.

Oh, and Thor gave Fury flack about the Banner thing too. Although I guess he technically was no longer an Ultimate at the time.

[C.O. Jones]

Didn't 'Thorlief' look a little smaller in that raincoat and visitors tags than we're used to seeing? Maybe Thor's story is legit, and somehow he was able to switch bodies with 'Thorlief, a la Don Blake...?

[The Fury]

Loved seeing the European Super Soldier Program, and am wondering what each Captain can do. But who to believe, is Thor really telling the truth or is he just mad?

Great issue.

[Mike Smash!]

There seems to be a lot of confusion surrounding UCap. A lot of transposing with regular Cap, a lot of people taking what they think he should be and projecting. When people talk about liking him despite Millar's writing... Millar is the only person who has written UCap. OK, a little bit of Bendis and Ellis as well, but mostly Millar. So, it's like one or the other.

Oh, and Thor gave Fury flack about the Banner thing too. Although I guess he technically was no longer an Ultimate at the time.No, I'm looking at Cap independently. I only mentioned regular Cap because of this assumption that I only hate Ultimate Cap because he's conservative or patriotic.

He's a great character, but he's a prick. Same with Jesse Custer from Preacher, who has many of the same traits and penchance for beating people into paste for pissing him off. I love Jesse and I think he has a strong sense of right and wrong, but he's a judgemental prick and a bit of an elitist at times.

Judging the character as a fictional character is different from judging them as a human being.

[Mike Smash!]

Loved seeing the European Super Soldier Program, and am wondering what each Captain can do. But who to believe, is Thor really telling the truth or is he just mad?

Great issue.The appearance of this "Loki" in all of the places where things go badly for Thor is what's making me believe that he's the real deal.

Until I noticed that, I read this issue thinking he was nuts and was a bit saddened by it. I didn't want to have that character "debunked". Sort of hurts his future potential.

[Reptisaurus!]

I think Black Widow's evil.

I dunno...

I'd think so too, but there was an evil Black Widow in Gaiman 'n Kubert's "1603" a year or so back. It would seem like re-using a plot-point, t'me.

[Red State Cap]

Given Thor's powers, he most certainly would have been able to create a display to stop the violence, WITHOUT hurting anyone. Yet he chose very willingly to do so.
Yes, SOME cops were beating SOME protesters on panel. However, if you want to hold Cap to the highest standards of legality and ethics, then I am going to hold Thor to the same standards. First, does Thor have a visa to even be in Italy? Or does he just get to ignore local laws because you like his politics? Second, Thor's action is vigilante justice every bit as much as Cap's beatdown of wife-beater Hank Pym was vigilante justice. Yet you indict one and not the other, because to you, LEFTIST vigilante justice is morally clean, while rightist vigilante justice is morally reprehensible.
You have as much right to your opinion as I do mine, but AT LEAST BE CONSISTENT.

RSC

[Dussan]

I like Ultimate Cap better then the MU version. The MU version seems so perfect that it makes me sick at times. Probably why I dislike Superman in the comics as well. I will admit I don't read Caps adventures, but when I do pick them up, I'm quickly turned off by how unrealistic he is.

Ultimate Captain America acts just how I figure Captain America would act. Like a 1940's patriotic soldier. In other words a Republican. He knows what is right and what is wrong. And he goes by it. He also knows the value of following orders.

Most of all, i see MASSIVE potential for this character. Cause he is so flawed and outdated, that you know he has to either change, or he changes the world.

[Mike Smash!]

Given Thor's powers, he most certainly would have been able to create a display to stop the violence, WITHOUT hurting anyone. Yet he chose very willingly to do so.
Yes, SOME cops were beating SOME protesters on panel. However, if you want to hold Cap to the highest standards of legality and ethics, then I am going to hold Thor to the same standards. First, does Thor have a visa to even be in Italy? Or does he just get to ignore local laws because you like his politics? Second, Thor's action is vigilante justice every bit as much as Cap's beatdown of wife-beater Hank Pym was vigilante justice. Yet you indict one and not the other, because to you, LEFTIST vigilante justice is morally clean, while rightist vigilante justice is morally reprehensible.
You have as much right to your opinion as I do mine, but AT LEAST BE CONSISTENT.

RSCI didn't say that at all. There was nothing overtly "rightist" about Cap's beating of Hank or his threatening of Thor. In both cases, he was either told not to get involved or it was none of his business. In the Thor case, he had no proof whatsoever, and after talking to Thor, he seemed to see that. I think he thought that barging in would get Thor to confess. When he didn't and did some rationally, it didn't make Cap look very good. And looked at his assault on the bouncer and the destruction of private property completely unjustified.

I don't defend Thor because he's a left-winger like me. Did he overreact? Perhaps. But I didn't see anyone seriously hurt, all I saw where cops knocked down and their cars destroyed. He stopped when the violence did. And he was reacting to a violent situation with his powers and did some calmly. Cap in both situations went into non-violent situations and created the violence.

And it wasn't just a few protestors. It was the entire frontline of the march being pelted with tear gas and then being beaten COMPLETELY UNPROVOKED by the Italian police.

This isn't about my personal politics. Had the two characters been reversed, I'd feel the exact same way about the actions.

[Mike Smash!]

Ultimate Captain America acts just how I figure Captain America would act. Like a 1940's patriotic soldier. In other words a Republican. He knows what is right and what is wrong. And he goes by it. He also knows the value of following ordersYou do realize that not all WWII soldiers are Republicans, nor are all patriots. Historian and liberal activist Howard Zinn is also a decorated WWII vet. That proves nothing.

Especially coming from the era of the New Deal.

[The Fury]

Until I noticed that, I read this issue thinking he was nuts and was a bit saddened by it.
I can see that, I was very surprised when this brother of his was saying about how he basically was created and went a bit insane.

By the way, anoyone who has the Issue where Thor speaks to his buddy in that restaurant handy, look at the art and see if anything looks like Thor described. Could clue us in.


Also, I'm still wondering abour the other Captains from Europe. Obviously we have France Spain and Italy. First are the name 'Carlos Fraile', 'Umberto Landi' and 'Hugo Etherlinck' familiar to anyone? Established charactrs just changed for this?

But there were 10 other Super Soldier's unnamed in the panel, I can work out that one is Captain Portuagal and one may be Captain Greece and one Captain Germany, but any thought on the others?

[Reptisaurus!]

I like Ultimate Cap better then the MU version. The MU version seems so perfect that it makes me sick at times. Probably why I dislike Superman in the comics as well. I will admit I don't read Caps adventures,

...

We know.

[Brian888]

Given Thor's powers, he most certainly would have been able to create a display to stop the violence, WITHOUT hurting anyone. Yet he chose very willingly to do so.
Yes, SOME cops were beating SOME protesters on panel. However, if you want to hold Cap to the highest standards of legality and ethics, then I am going to hold Thor to the same standards. First, does Thor have a visa to even be in Italy? Or does he just get to ignore local laws because you like his politics? Second, Thor's action is vigilante justice every bit as much as Cap's beatdown of wife-beater Hank Pym was vigilante justice. Yet you indict one and not the other, because to you, LEFTIST vigilante justice is morally clean, while rightist vigilante justice is morally reprehensible.
You have as much right to your opinion as I do mine, but AT LEAST BE CONSISTENT.

RSC


Mike's made some good points, so let me just reiterate: you're comparing apples and oranges. Thor went into a violent situation and used some force to stop it. We don't know if the cops were hurt in the process or not, but then again maybe they shouldn't have been clubbing innocent protestors in the first place. At any rate, Thor reacted to protect people, and stopped when the violence did. In the same way, Cap used the right amount of force to free those hostages, and stopped when his mission was accomplished.

Cap crossed the line, however, when he started situations with Hank and in the club. He created trouble, and caused lots of harm, when he really didn't need too. And didn't think twice about it, before or after. He was seeking "justice" long after the fact and without any authority to do so, which seems fairly vigilante to me. Thor was reacting to stop violence and possible death.

Now, we can debate the correctness of Thor intervening at the protest, if you like. I stand by my position that Thor was in the right there; people were being badly hurt, and he stopped it. We don't know if the cops involved were collaterally hurt or not, but then again they were the ones clubbing protestors. Likewise, the hostage-takers who Cap hurt probably shouldn't have been taking hostages in the first place. But what did the club bouncer or the people in the bar (or even the owner of the bar) do to deserve what they got?

[pureclint]

As opposed to, say, as in the regular MU, all the great super science coming out of a tiny Eastern European country.



Well there is a HUGE difference the a made up country run by a Super Villian who has armor comparable to Iron Mans and a REAL country such as Norway leading the EU (and world) in both tech and practice. Sorry knowing the real world (which the Ultimates mimics to a degree) there is 0% France, Germany or the UK would let Norway make the leader of the EU team.


Now after reading the last few pages and the whole Cap(my favorite Ultimate) and Thor debate.

A few points:

It was not JUST Fury who thought Thor betrayed the Ultimates, most of the world did.

I would expect a Soldier to personally confront a disloyal team member, and while hitting the Bouncer was not legally right (unless Cap was on Official government buisness) I understand why he did it. Cap did discover Thor was did not betray them and stopped the confrotation when he turned to leave.

Personally I applaud Cap for kicking the shit out of a wife beater (attempted murderer to boot) and muggers. Hint to Hank and the muggers: Do not break the law!

I have never known any one, cop or otherwise, to be fine after being hit by lightning as shown in the Italy scene. Also sorry to all protesters but interupting the daily activites of a City is illegal. You have the right to protest but to not interfere with another life. THe police should not have beatne them with clubs though, and tear gas etc would have been enough.

I am not convinced it was Thor who attacked the Police, that does not seem like something he would do. Loki?

I like Thor, I disagree with most of his views(he himself is very quick to point the finger with out proof over SS involvement in the Middle east) but I will give him credit for being consistant (the bar scene) and morally sound in most of his actions.

I do think Thor will hand Cap his ass and he should he is a God, but Cap will give him a run for his money and gte a few good licks in he is the Ultimate Soldier.

[The Fury]

Now, we can debate the correctness of Thor intervening at the protest, if you like. I stand by my position that Thor was in the right there; people were being badly hurt, and he stopped it. We don't know if the cops involved were collaterally hurt or not, but then again they were the ones clubbing protestors. Likewise, the hostage-takers who Cap hurt probably shouldn't have been taking hostages in the first place. But what did the club bouncer or the people in the bar (or even the owner of the bar) do to deserve what they got?
This Cap is overly rightous. What he believe's is right, he tries to force his views on other people (it seems to me). Where Cap is right to save the hostages, he was wrong to storm that club, and all becuase of his views. He already decided that Thor was responsible and acted on it.

Thor in that protest was in the right, he stopped what was happening. He would have been all for a peaceful protest, i'm sure, but if either side (the protestors or Police) started to use force he would have stopped the appropriate side, in this case the Police were beating on the Protestors, but if the protestors were attacking and beating on the police, I'm sure he would have stopped them.

[The Fury]

Sorry knowing the real world (which the Ultimates mimics to a degree) there is 0% France, Germany or the UK would let Norway make the leader of the EU team.

No they will not, but they are far more likly to let a Norwegian lead the team then someone from France, Germany or GB.

But knowing the real world, I know that Norway are not part of the EU.

This team may not be EU controlled or supported.

[Brian888]

Well there is a HUGE difference the a made up country run by a Super Villian who has armor comparable to Iron Mans and a REAL country such as Norway leading the EU (and world) in both tech and practice. Sorry knowing the real world (which the Ultimates mimics to a degree) there is 0% France, Germany or the UK would let Norway make the leader of the EU team.


Now after reading the last few pages and the whole Cap(my favorite Ultimate) and Thor debate.

A few points:

It was not JUST Fury who thought Thor betrayed the Ultimates, most of the world did.

I would expect a Soldier to personally confront a disloyal team member, and while hitting the Bouncer was not legally right (unless Cap was on Official government buisness) I understand why he did it. Cap did discover Thor was did not betray them and stopped the confrotation when he turned to leave.

Personally I applaud Cap for kicking the shit out of a wife beater (attempted murderer to boot) and muggers. Hint to Hank and the muggers: Do not break the law!

I have never known any one, cop or otherwise, to be fine after being hit by lightning as shown in the Italy scene. Also sorry to all protesters but interupting the daily activites of a City is illegal. You have the right to protest but to not interfere with another life. THe police should not have beatne them with clubs though, and tear gas etc would have been enough.

I am not convinced it was Thor who attacked the Police, that does not seem like something he would do. Loki?

I like Thor, I disagree with most of his views(he himself is very quick to point the finger with out proof over SS involvement in the Middle east) but I will give him credit for being consistant (the bar scene) and morally sound in most of his actions.

I do think Thor will hand Cap his ass and he should he is a God, but Cap will give him a run for his money and gte a few good licks in he is the Ultimate Soldier.



Oh, I understand why Cap did what he did. If my friend was beaten by her boyfriend, I'd want to go kick the shit out of him too. I might even have been willing to give Cap a pass on that one if he'd confronted Hank somewhere where nobody and no property would get damaged. What I don't like is him going in there single-mindedly, not considering the damage the fight would (and did) cause to things other than Hank.

I do think it was Thor who stopped the cops. I bet Loki instigated things, however.

We don't know if the protestors were disrupting anything. It looked very peaceful at the beginning. They could have had a permit for all we know, or they may have been protesting illegally. Still, the cops were way out of line on that one. As for the lightning, your're right. Getting hit by lightning sucks. Thor doesn't seem to like to kill, though, so I'm betting he "pulled the lightning" a little, toning down the power. Or maybe not.

You raise an interesting point about Thor and his accusations over the SS program, though. I'm inclined to think he may be onto something, because I'm a flaming liberal (;)). Heh. Actually, because it seems that whenever SHIELD denies something, it turns out to be true. They did it this issue; they denied the existence of the European SS program, which actually exists. But Thor could be wrong as well.

[pureclint]

Oh, I understand why Cap did what he did. If my friend was beaten by her boyfriend, I'd want to go kick the shit out of him too. I might even have been willing to give Cap a pass on that one if he'd confronted Hank somewhere where nobody and no property would get damaged. What I don't like is him going in there single-mindedly, not considering the damage the fight would (and did) cause to things other than Hank.

Destruction of property is bad yeah I would think Shield picked up the tab on that. But they did fight in a construction yard at night it was not like they were in the mall.

I do think it was Thor who stopped the cops. I bet Loki instigated things, however.


Now that is a good possibility, and actually more likely. Loki made the cops get over violent and Thor stopped him. However Thor still blasted Police Officers with Lightning, mindcontrolled or not that is comparable to Cap pushing a Door on a Bouncer violence wise (if not more so, bruises heal better then lightning blasts)

We don't know if the protestors were disrupting anything. It looked very peaceful at the beginning. They could have had a permit for all we know, or they may have been protesting illegally. Still, the cops were way out of line on that one. As for the lightning, your're right. Getting hit by lightning sucks. Thor doesn't seem to like to kill, though, so I'm betting he "pulled the lightning" a little, toning down the power. Or maybe not.

Its possible they had a permit for a parade, but I doubt it as there would not have been swat gear wearing Police there. As to disrupting anything, go get 500 people (let alone 50,000 or whatever it was) and walk down a mjor street see how smoothly that goes for the store owners the patrons and traffic.

I would tend to agree with you that Thor if possible would not kill the Cops he seems to be a Stand up guy (same as Cap would not kill the Bouncer for the same reason). But hell he could have used Wind or Rain on them...

You raise an interesting point about Thor and his accusations over the SS program, though. I'm inclined to think he may be onto something, because I'm a flaming liberal (;)). Heh. Actually, because it seems that whenever SHIELD denies something, it turns out to be true. They did it this issue; they denied the existence of the European SS program, which actually exists. But Thor could be wrong as well.

Actually in context of the book we do know. Fury even states the only Reason they sent Cap in was the hostages and that He had to make a hard decision and piss people off to do the right thing. Now they might have desings to use more SSs in future military action as I would expect them to (if you make a new bomb you should have a reason) but as of now Thor's claims are baseless.

[CaptMagellan]

"You raise an interesting point about Thor and his accusations over the SS program, though. I'm inclined to think he may be onto something, because I'm a flaming liberal (). Heh. Actually, because it seems that whenever SHIELD denies something, it turns out to be true. They did it this issue; they denied the existence of the European SS program, which actually exists. But Thor could be wrong as well."

The weird thing about Ult. Thor is that he has shown on a couple of occasions a certain amount of 'omniscience'.

The first time was when Banner first met him and Thor got him to shut up by confronting him with things only Banner would know (crying himself to sleep and fantasizing revenge against the Pyms).

The second time was in this issue when he knew that the Ultimates were going to attack and, specifically, the exact moment that Pietro was attacking.

Now, this doesn't necessarily translate into knowledge of government wrongdoing and conspiracy but it's possible that his 'evidence' is more of a 'divine' nature.

Maybe one of his 'powers' is a direct line of intelligence from Odin himself.

Or maybe he's just a little bit psychic and his conspiracy theories aren't backed up by anything than his beliefs and (possibly incorrect) deductions.

[pureclint]

No they will not, but they are far more likly to let a Norwegian lead the team then someone from France, Germany or GB.

But knowing the real world, I know that Norway are not part of the EU.

This team may not be EU controlled or supported.


I did not know Norway is not part of the EU (thanks for that info), but that makes it even less likely they would be invloved in my book.

Look how the EU acts over the Air Bus...

[CaptMagellan]

"Its possible they had a permit for a parade, but I doubt it as there would not have been swat gear wearing Police there. As to disrupting anything, go get 500 people (let alone 50,000 or whatever it was) and walk down a mjor street see how smoothly that goes for the store owners the patrons and traffic."

Actually, it is legal to stage a political protest in Italy if you go through the proper channels.

Here's a link to an article about a legal protest staged in Italy comprised of over 200,000 protesters.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/sep2002/ital-s19.shtml

In most european countries people have the right to political protest if they follow the proper channels. There are also usually police on the scene for peaceful crowd control purposes - to keep people moving so they don't block storefronts, so they don't congregate in intersections etc. Political protests also usually have a set route that they follow so that they can make their presence known without stopping the city from functioning. The police will have some presence at all the major stages of the route to make sure the crowd doesn't get out of hand. If they do get out of hand then they can respond reasonably.

The way Millar portrayed the scene (whether it's 'leftist' propaganda or not) is that it was a peaceful rally that was publicised enough for some visiting americans to be aware of and participate in that suddenly went wrong when the police attacked unprovoked.

[pureclint]

Reading the article:

An estimated 200,000 protesters gathered in the square in front of Rome’s San Giovanni basilica on September 16 to oppose legal reforms planned by the right-wing government of Silvio Berlusconi. The legislation is designed to scupper the prime minister’s upcoming corruption trial.

That is a big differnece then marching down a street. I did say people have the right to protest and it was possible they got a permit. I do not think it is proper for them to disrupt so many other poeples lives by their protest, which marching down a street tends to do. Also, the number of SWAT on hand is differnet then having police escorts.

Are you sure they can form parade type protests?

[Brian888]

About Thor's lightning:


I've been thinking about this, and it seems that Thor can control the strength of his blasts. The first time we see him use lightning offensively, he hits the Hulk. Now, granted, the Hulk is goddamn tough, but the lightning doesn't appear to really hurt him, nor do I think it was meant to; Thor seemed to be using it to knock Hulk off his feet, so Thor could get in there with his hammer.

In this issue, we see Thor hit Quicksilver with a blast. It knocks him out, but I'll bet Quicksilver will be up and at 'em by next issue; it didn't look like a killing strike.

Contrast these with Thor's massive lightning attack on the Skrull motherships. He unleashed one blast that tore apart several ships at once.

Based on this, I think that Thor can vary the strength of his lightning blasts by quite a lot, from "painful and will likely knock a normal person out" to "spaceship destroying."

[pureclint]

Yeah but the thing is you can only make lightning so weak, a certain amount of charge differnece between the gorund and sky to generate a large electrical blast is massive. Sure he could town the current down, currnet kills more then voltage.

There is a massive differnece from hitting Ships, the Hulk and Quicksilver (high metabolism equals fast healing plus I am sure his nervous structure and muscles generate more bio electricity) then hitting a normal person.

I will give you he toned it down, but man I am sure those cops are going to be out of commision for a week minimum. Poor Rome and and their limited police force!

[CaptMagellan]

"Are you sure they can form parade type protests?"

I'm not positive but 'moving' protests through the streets (at least in the US) is considered less disruptive because no 1 area is impacted for more than a few minutes. Usually what happens is that a protest march is scheduled to begin and end at roughly certain times and places. This way, the populace (ie, store owners, commuters, etc) know what is going to be inconvenienced and roughly when, what streets will be unavailable or temporarily blocked etc.

My main point being though, even if the specifics of certain laws state otherwise, I think that is how Millar is portraying the scene. His research could be just as cursory or uninformed as anyone's, but considering that:

1) we don't see any protestor rioting
2) we get exposition from a protestor hinting that this was a known public protest (like a lot of the ones here in the US that attract semi-liberal 'tourists'... like the one portrayed in the scene)
3) we don't see any warnings from the police, just a 'let the beatings begin' attitude
4) Thor's calmly but sternly saying "Leave these people alone."

Indicates to me that Millar's intent was to show the scene as being unprovoked police brutality. Whether the protest itself could happen that way under current Italian law... I really don't know. And maybe Millar doesn't either.

As for the lightning... Not to give Thor a pass on it but I wouldn't be surprised if his control over the lightning makes it possible for 'stun gun' like emissions.

[KristyJo]

I don't have my issue with me... But the panel where the car blows up... Thor isn't in that panel, is he? It was my interpretation that he did step in and stop the police from hurting the protesters, but I'm not so sure he's the one that blew up the car and caused all the fire and destruction. Isn't it possible he saved those people and then left and then Loki stepped in to make it look worse? I just don't think Thor would have blown up the car, not only would that have hurt the cops there, it would have hurt the people there protesting, and those were the people he came to save.

As for hitting the police with lightning... It could just be like when you shock yourself on a door handle. Well, probably stronger than that, but I think he would know exactly how hard he could hit a normal person.

Also, in regards to that scene with Thor and Banner and Thor's "divine" knowledge... I thought it was almost like he was telepathic. It certainly seems that that is part of his "gifts" and that didn't come from the suit he "stole." He has some sort of foresight or something.

[Brian888]

Yeah but the thing is you can only make lightning so weak, a certain amount of charge differnece between the gorund and sky to generate a large electrical blast is massive. Sure he could town the current down, currnet kills more then voltage.

There is a massive differnece from hitting Ships, the Hulk and Quicksilver (high metabolism equals fast healing plus I am sure his nervous structure and muscles generate more bio electricity) then hitting a normal person.

I will give you he toned it down, but man I am sure those cops are going to be out of commision for a week minimum. Poor Rome and and their limited police force!


I saw him hit about four of them. Rome can spare four cops for a week. ;)

[CaptMagellan]

"I will give you he toned it down, but man I am sure those cops are going to be out of commision for a week minimum. Poor Rome and and their limited police force!"

In the real world, I'd agree with you but in a superhero world, (even one with the Ultimates in it), powers that break the laws of physics aren't unexpected.

Especially when the electrical shock emanates from a hammer being held by a the god of thunder. (allegedly)

[Mike Smash!]

This Cap is overly rightous. What he believe's is right, he tries to force his views on other people (it seems to me). Where Cap is right to save the hostages, he was wrong to storm that club, and all becuase of his views. He already decided that Thor was responsible and acted on it.

Thor in that protest was in the right, he stopped what was happening. He would have been all for a peaceful protest, i'm sure, but if either side (the protestors or Police) started to use force he would have stopped the appropriate side, in this case the Police were beating on the Protestors, but if the protestors were attacking and beating on the police, I'm sure he would have stopped them.This is true. When his supporters were spitting on Cap and pouring beer on them, he put it to an end. He gave them hell for that and reminded them of what he claimed to stand for.

He then apologized to Cap, made sure he was alright, and offered him his theory on the leak.

Cap went into a non-violent situation, with the intent of creating violence. Thor intervened when a non-violent situation became violent and people were in danger, much the way Cap did in the hostage situation.

Cap used measured force in one situation and not in the other.

As for "limited force"? They attacked a peaceful protest completely unprovoked. There was no rioting and one of them was beating a demonstrator with his rifle! One of the "rioters" was even screaming in English that they were being peaceful.

The cops were completely out of line and Thor was right to step in.

And yes, if a friend of mine was beaten by her husband, I'd probably want to take him apart with my bare hands, but that doesn't give me the right to. Eespecially with someone like Cap, who's much more dangerous and in control in combat situations than myself. They had Pym's location. It wouldn't have been hard to send a SHIELD team to arrest him.

[StoneGold]

The other thing being... Thor is a rebel. A revolutionary. Making sure The Man doesn't squash the people and all that. To make this a little more local, if Thor had been in LA back in '91, he would have zapped the cops off Rodney King. It doesn't matter that they were authority figures, and that LA would have been without 9 cops, they were abusing authority, and Thor don't cotton to that. To the same extent, he would have zapped the rioters who beat the crap out of Reginald Denny. But that seems to be Thor's thing. He's not trying to play by the laws of the land, but by the laws of his morality. Which, quite frankly, is part of what makes him so interesting. That and his whole pacifism through occasionally beating the crap out of somebody stance.

The reason I think people were coming down on Cap is because he does represent the authority. Cap is The Man, even if he was off the reservation when he hunted down Thor at the club. When The Man breaks his own laws, it's worse than when a rebel does it, because the rebel never bought into the laws to begin with. There's no hypocracy. Whereas the authority figure is just saying the laws only apply to everyone else, not him.

[pureclint]

Haha now your comparing Lighting to static electricity? Sure we can generate thousands of volts but the colse proximity of the discharge mean not much power iis involved.

CaptM:
I am under the impression he does not generate the lighting he controls the weather. Big difference.

And you are correct controlled protests are better off then uncontrolled ones, it still does not make it right to disrupt the lives of other people to get your point across.


I think every one is quick to blame the Police, it still seems it was LOKI who caused them to riot and Thor came to stop the situation (again as he should) I just do not think you should give him a pass for hitting mind controlled police with lightning yet slam Cap for pushing a Bouncer through a door, both were doing what they felt was right. I am just pointing out to the Cap Haters, Thor did not have to go to the extremes he did (some wind or rain maybe?) the same as Cap did not have to.

Yes some of the details are different , but come on defending a guy who used lightning on Police yet condeming a guy who beat the tar out of a Wife Beater (Attempted Murder here people!) is very inconsistant.

[Mike Smash!]

Its possible they had a permit for a parade, but I doubt it as there would not have been swat gear wearing Police there. As to disrupting anything, go get 500 people (let alone 50,000 or whatever it was) and walk down a mjor street see how smoothly that goes for the store owners the patrons and traffic.I can speak from experience, having been in more than a couple protest marches myself, that all of them have permits, that I've never been in one that got violent. Even in the WTO protest of 1999, the violence wasn't instigated by protestors, but by anarchists who weren't even part of the march. Nonetheless police got violent with even non-violent demonstrators.

Also, cops show up to EVERY march and protest, most of the time without riot gear, though it's really up to the chief of police, the mayor and city attorney to how they're to be armed. Some are warranted in the potential for violence, some are just armed that way by overreating people in charge.

There is no reason for the cops in that march to react the way they did. On that page, find one single reason for them to react with tear gas and batons.

Also, all marches I've been involved with have people acting as "peacemakers". There are demonstrators that stay around the front, back and edges of a march and stop any emotion for escalating out of hand and in situations involving the police so that the police know we're not there to fight and emotional demonstrators remember that we're supposed to be peaceful, because emotions can be high among both protestor and police officer alike. Their job is to ensure that things stay peaceful. Any organized march has hundreds of such people.

[CaptMagellan]

"CaptM:
I am under the impression he does not generate the lighting he controls the weather. Big difference."

Until they spell it out for us it's up to interpretation but from a lot of the artwork, to me it looks like the lightning emanates from him and/or his hammer. Like in the scene with Pietro where it appears that the lightning comes from the hammer itself.

"And you are correct controlled protests are better off then uncontrolled ones, it still does not make it right to disrupt the lives of other people to get your point across."

Maybe not, but it is LEGAL and as such the police (probably prompted by Loki/Gunnar since he's in the scene) were abusing both their power and the protesters.

[lonewolf23k]

Just to act as the devil's advocate, Mike, while you and the peaceful protestors can claim very loudly that you're not going to be violent and that the police don't need to prepare their riot gear, none of you can garantee that there won't be violent anarchists joining up. The police has to prepare for the worst. It's their job to stop what violence might erupt, so as to limit the risk of casualty and property damage.

...Yeah, I know that most protestor-sympathisers will laugh at the idea of riot control's duty being the limiting of casualties, but their primary purpose is to disperse a riot as quickly as possible and arrest the most violent rioters with the minimum force necessary.

All right, I rest my case. Sorry about that.

[Mike Smash!]

Haha now your comparing Lighting to static electricity? Sure we can generate thousands of volts but the colse proximity of the discharge mean not much power iis involved.

CaptM:
I am under the impression he does not generate the lighting he controls the weather. Big difference.

And you are correct controlled protests are better off then uncontrolled ones, it still does not make it right to disrupt the lives of other people to get your point across.


I think every one is quick to blame the Police, it still seems it was LOKI who caused them to riot and Thor came to stop the situation (again as he should) I just do not think you should give him a pass for hitting mind controlled police with lightning yet slam Cap for pushing a Bouncer through a door, both were doing what they felt was right. I am just pointing out to the Cap Haters, Thor did not have to go to the extremes he did (some wind or rain maybe?) the same as Cap did not have to.

Yes some of the details are different , but come on defending a guy who used lightning on Police yet condeming a guy who beat the tar out of a Wife Beater (Attempted Murder here people!) is very inconsistant.I think you're being very black and white.

No one is defending Hank Pym or what he did to Jan. That's not the question. Cap can't control what other people do, but he can control himself.

He went into a public place to fight a man he knew could grow 60 feet tall and that the potential for private and public property damage would be very high. He knew that Hank was strung out and had been drinking. Who's to say he wouldn't have grown in the middle of the bar in a rage and potentially hurt several bystanders?

Cap knows better than this. He's a soldier and he understood in the hostage situation that he wanted to avoid a situation where those hostages could be killed. That's why he ended it without a fight. He didn't need to hurt anyone to stop those men, so he didn't. He let his reputation make them surrender.

He could have done the same with Hank Pym. Either go in there, the way he approached Banner after the Hulk rampage and calm him down before knocking him out, or simply sent in SHIELD soldiers who would have simply arrested him. I think that seeing Cap, someone who was the topic of the argument that sent Hank flying off the handle with Jan in the first place, is likely to make Hank do something very stupid, especially after a few beers.

But Cap didn't care about all that. He wanted to fight him and it didn't matter how much of that building or that construction site was needlessly destroyed.

He made what didn't have to be a non-violent situation violent. And risked the lives of a lot of bystanders. After all, a 60 foot man only a short walk from a crowded bar can hurt a lot of people on accident. Cap's a soldier with plans within plans. He simply knew better.

Did Hank deserve an ass kicking? Probably. But Cap should be smarter and more mature than that.

With the Thor situation, it's not about hating cops or authority. It's about abuse of power on peaceful, unarmed people by trained people with tear gas, batons and guns and completely unprovoked. It was a violent situation and everyone, including Thor, was peaceful until the cops went crazy. That's when Thor stepped in with lower powered lightning, even visually smaller than that he used on Quicksilver, and when the fight was over, he stopped.

Was Thor overboard with the police vehiciles? Maybe. But he didn't damage anything that wasn't part of the fight. The bouncer and the owner of the construction site had nothing to do with the fight between Cap and Hank.

[Brian888]

Just to act as the devil's advocate, Mike, while you and the peaceful protestors can claim very loudly that you're not going to be violent and that the police don't need to prepare their riot gear, none of you can garantee that there won't be violent anarchists joining up. The police has to prepare for the worst. It's their job to stop what violence might erupt, so as to limit the risk of casualty and property damage.

...Yeah, I know that most protestor-sympathisers will laugh at the idea of riot control's duty being the limiting of casualties, but their primary purpose is to disperse a riot as quickly as possible and arrest the most violent rioters with the minimum force necessary.

All right, I rest my case. Sorry about that.



No, don't be sorry. You made a good point. Whenever there's a massive gathering of people, there should be police there, in case any one of a myriad of potential possible things goes wrong. If they want to be in riot gear for their potential protection, that's fine too. It's just that clubbing innocent protestors crosses the line.

[Mike Smash!]

Just to act as the devil's advocate, Mike, while you and the peaceful protestors can claim very loudly that you're not going to be violent and that the police don't need to prepare their riot gear, none of you can garantee that there won't be violent anarchists joining up. The police has to prepare for the worst. It's their job to stop what violence might erupt, so as to limit the risk of casualty and property damage.

...Yeah, I know that most protestor-sympathisers will laugh at the idea of riot control's duty being the limiting of casualties, but their primary purpose is to disperse a riot as quickly as possible and arrest the most violent rioters with the minimum force necessary.

All right, I rest my case. Sorry about that.No, the city would have to be completely stupid not to have the police there. In fact, I'm glad they're there as long as they remain fair and no one jumps the gun.

Just as I have no problem with peaceful protests. Like you say, a few morons can get violent and that's why the cops are there. But they have to use force in a contained and controlled way. Their reaction to the WTO protests by cracking down on the 99% of peaceful protestors as well as the violent fringe group is an overreaction. Just as the cops in Italy that Thor fought off were.

Cops aren't doing an easy job and it can be a tense situation, but like Cap, these guys are trained for tense situations and they should know better.

Preparing for the worst is alright. Reacting to something as if it's the worst when it isn't is not.

[CaptMagellan]

"Yes some of the details are different , but come on defending a guy who used lightning on Police yet condeming a guy who beat the tar out of a Wife Beater (Attempted Murder here people!) is very inconsistant."

For me I'm defending a guy who used lightning on police who were currently brutalizing innocent civilians yet condeming a guy who attacked a civilian who was only doing his job (the bouncer), destroying private property (the bar owner's door), verbally insulted citizens who hadn't done anything to him (yet at least), and accused a former team mate without even asking for his side of the story first.

I personally wanted to see Cap go in saying something like "Word has it that you betrayed us. I've fought beside you and even though I don't see eye to eye with your politics, you seem pretty stand up in a fight. So I wanted to hear it from you. Did you rat us out?"

But he just came in accusing.

I don't have as much as a problem with Cap beating on Hank as some do. But I think the main difference for most people is that Thor acted WHILE people were getting attacked to stop the violence. Cap instigated a fight with Hank, after the fact, when no one was at risk. He wasn't protecting anyone, he was acting in anger for revenge. Hell, Jan hadn't pressed charges which was probably why no one was out to arrest him.

[Mike Smash!]

Hell, Jan hadn't pressed charges which was probably why no one was out to arrest him.Police are required to make an arrest for assault, even if no charges are pressed, especially in the case of battered spouses.

Now, you'd first have to find cops that would try to go after a 60 foot man. They'd just call SHIELD.

[CaptMagellan]

"Police are required to make an arrest for assault, even if no charges are pressed, especially in the case of battered spouses.

Now, you'd first have to find cops that would try to go after a 60 foot man. They'd just call SHIELD."

Makes sense to me. It just seemed from the info in the stories that no one was looking for Hank. Hell, Fury didn't want Cap to go after him and he wasn't sending anybody else in either.

Was there any mention of a warrant for his arrest? Am I forgeting something or did Millar just drop the ball on that plot thread?

[Kirk G]

"Police are required to make an arrest for assault, even if no charges are pressed, especially in the case of battered spouses.

Now, you'd first have to find cops that would try to go after a 60 foot man. They'd just call SHIELD."

Makes sense to me. It just seemed from the info in the stories that no one was looking for Hank. Hell, Fury didn't want Cap to go after him and he wasn't sending anybody else in either.

Was there any mention of a warrant for his arrest? Am I forgeting something or did Millar just drop the ball on that plot thread?

Don't think so...remember, Hank is bound for the Defenders shortly.... right???
A bunch of criminals???

[CaptMagellan]

But it was never indicated (that I remember off the top of my head) that Hank had ever been arrested for beating Jan. We were told about him being in the hospital but I don't remember any charges or conviction. The next we saw of him, he was back working with the SS program.

The only 'legal' info we get is from Jan regarding her lawyers and the coming divorce.

[KristyJo]

But it was never indicated (that I remember off the top of my head) that Hank had ever been arrested for beating Jan. We were told about him being in the hospital but I don't remember any charges or conviction. The next we saw of him, he was back working with the SS program.

The only 'legal' info we get is from Jan regarding her lawyers and the coming divorce.

There is a scene in vol 1 where Hank calls Jan and thanks her for not pressing charges. Not sure exactly when that happens, but she's in the salon, and he tells her he's staying with his aunt while he recovers. And she tells him not to call her again.

[CaptMagellan]

That's right. Thanks for the reminder.

[Indigo Al]

I don't have my issue with me... But the panel where the car blows up... Thor isn't in that panel, is he? It was my interpretation that he did step in and stop the police from hurting the protesters, but I'm not so sure he's the one that blew up the car and caused all the fire and destruction. Isn't it possible he saved those people and then left and then Loki stepped in to make it look worse? I just don't think Thor would have blown up the car, not only would that have hurt the cops there, it would have hurt the people there protesting, and those were the people he came to save.

As for hitting the police with lightning... It could just be like when you shock yourself on a door handle. Well, probably stronger than that, but I think he would know exactly how hard he could hit a normal person.

Also, in regards to that scene with Thor and Banner and Thor's "divine" knowledge... I thought it was almost like he was telepathic. It certainly seems that that is part of his "gifts" and that didn't come from the suit he "stole." He has some sort of foresight or something.

Interesting... so maybe it's a combo of insane Godliness and super soldier suit. Maybe he is possessed by Asgard yet can't fully access the power of Thor and thus as coincidence would have it, came across the suit and stole it.

After all, in Ultimates 4 or 5 (where Fury and Banner go visit Thor for the first time) didn't Thior call down lightning without even touching his hammer???

[Brady]

Ultimate Thor as a crazy nutjob is the 'twist' that 616 Thor never had. Most Marvel Silver Age characters had some type of twist to them. Spidey was riddled with guilt, and was a nerdy teenager. Cap was a man out of time. Hulk was a brainless beast. the X-Men were hated and feared, etc etc.

Thor never really had that type of grounding. He was a god. He was super powerful. Even his 'secret identity', created to 'teach him humility' was a successful doctor and surgeon. Thor never really had that quirky twist that definies so many Marvel characters.

I think that Ultimate Thor is meant to rectify that. I think he really *is* a god, but the twist is that the world will never believe him. They think he's a madman (maybe its one of Odin's "teaching him humility" kicks, maybe its Loki, or maybe its just realistic that people kinda doubt someone claiming to be a mythological god)

I think that the truth about Ultimate Thor's origin might get revealed to the reader, but to the general ultimate-verse public, he'll always be regarded as a dangerously unstable individual.

[CaptMagellan]

"After all, in Ultimates 4 or 5 (where Fury and Banner go visit Thor for the first time) didn't Thior call down lightning without even touching his hammer???"

Yup. Which could support the view that Gunnar is Loki. His story has it that it's the hammer that ionized the air, yadda yadda.

According to that early issue, Thor can do it without the hammer. Interesting in that both original myth and the 616 universe, he's still the god of thunder with or without Mjollnir.

[Mike Smash!]

Interesting... so maybe it's a combo of insane Godliness and super soldier suit. Maybe he is possessed by Asgard yet can't fully access the power of Thor and thus as coincidence would have it, came across the suit and stole it.

After all, in Ultimates 4 or 5 (where Fury and Banner go visit Thor for the first time) didn't Thior call down lightning without even touching his hammer???
I think he's the real deal, like his dimensional teleportation of that Skrull bomb or him reading Banner's mind. Gunnar certainly didn't explain those away.

[StoneGold]

Thor never really had that type of grounding. He was a god. He was super powerful. Even his 'secret identity', created to 'teach him humility' was a successful doctor and surgeon. Thor never really had that quirky twist that definies so many Marvel characters.


Except that Don Blake was a cripple, and therein lies your twist.

[Kid Seven]

Does anyone here now of any possible connection between the Gunnar name and Norse mythology? Or is Millar just inventing the name?

[CaptMagellan]

Gunnar is an old Norse name meaning "Fighter" (the prefix Gunn- relates to fighting... there are also names GunnBjorn (fighting Bear) and Gunnolf (fighting wolf).

Golmen seems to be a fairly common Norwegian Surname and possible place name? But I couldn't find a translation of Old Norse root for Golmen or Gol-

I'll keep searching though...

[jelly [blank] of doom]

Does anyone here now of any possible connection between the Gunnar name and Norse mythology? Or is Millar just inventing the name?

GUNNAR
Gender: Masculine
Usage: Scandinavian, Norse Mythology
Extra Info: Popularity, Related Names, Namesakes, Name Days
Options: Contribute Information
From the Old Norse name Gunnarr which was derived from the elements gunnr "war" and arr "warrior". It is thus a cognate of GÜNTHER. Gunnar was a character in Norse legend, the husband of Brynhild.

http://www.behindthename.com/php/search.php?terms=Gunnar+&nmd=n&gender=both&operator=or

There's that out of the way.. Also here is my take on Ultimate Cap.

He's a hardass from a time where it was good vs. evil. Right vs. Wrong. In his eyes there is a line seperating the "good" guys and the "bad" guys. In an ideal world, this is how everything would work out. In an ideal world, communism works perfectly. While I do like the character of Ult. Cap a lot I do see he has his flaws unlike 616 Cap who seems to be a golden boy. Ult. Cap is still stuck in the 40s and can't accepct the terms of a new world around him. Eventually this is going to catch up with him and I think it's going to be this arc.

Also, yeah.. Loki, no doubt. When I read the "orgin" of Thor. I kinda just was sitting there with a blank look on my face and decided that I needed more malty chocalate milk shakes in my life.

[IamtheRock3]

It's totaly Loki


Great Dialouge..the girls a tad less SUPER SLUTTY now


Cap a great charcter but he a prick befor you guys think that the lefest in me

Green Arrow is a prick too

Being a prick tragends social boudaries.


When Thor though the Ultimates was up to something..he didn't barge in wanting to fight and calling people out. So far he seem more willing to hear people out

And really with Sinster Six, banner, Thor have reasons to not like the Ulitmates. Fury has causes a lot of garbage. A LOT not the oridnary "I didnt read them the marada rights. Or I made the prisoner eat meat went it againts thier relegion" type petty stuff but "I got a LOT of people killed for doing dumb crap stuff or trying to cover my ass" type stuff

Dont care how many people thought Door did it. Thor is team mate. Faught with him. save each other lives. I would of LEAST talk to him, called him out verbally and simply asked

"Is this garbage true"

Then and ONLY then would I punch him in the face. Man earn the benifit of the doubt.

[Forsaken_One]

Captain America is so very much a prick. It seems to me he's been waiting for an excuse to beat on Thor for quite a while now, hell since they first met. He tried to get one at the club (blah blah door blah blah whatever, he was still trying to pick a fight) and Fury (and possibly Loki) just handed him his justification on a silver platter. But even with government authority he's still a dick.

And I agree with the previous poster (like on page 2) that Wasp is so getting bored with Cap by now. It'll be interesting to see it play out; maybe she'll go back to Hank? I doubt it but you never know.

[UniqueFrequency]

okay this is the first issue of the ultimates in a long time that actually grabbed me. i mean yeah vol.1 had all the insane action crap which i liked, but these lil moments are good too

i don't care much about the cap/wasp relationship.. don't think it does much other than to show how cap isn't really with the times

the whole thor/loki thing is interesting.. at the moment i don't know what to think.. WOULD be interesting if thor really was just some insane dude though. but since the very sharp eyed CaptMagellan pointed out he was in a previous issue, i think the Loki thing is gonna come out.

didn't like the black widow being iron lady thing. i thought she was cooler without.

the part about hawkeye coming home and finding his family kinda unprotected by security was nice

and finally, this 'captain france' and 'captain italy' and what not just comes off cheesy for me. not to mention we don't know who any of them are or what they do. i'd rather see an Ultimate Excalibur

[Brady]

Except that Don Blake was a cripple, and therein lies your twist.

Whoops :o Well, so much for that idea then ...

[pureclint]

I think you're being very black and white.

No one is defending Hank Pym or what he did to Jan. That's not the question. Cap can't control what other people do, but he can control himself.

Who said they were? I said you are comdeming Cap for beating up a Super Powered Wife beater and attempted murderer. Someone who fully deserved a ass kicking of a life time.

He went into a public place to fight a man he knew could grow 60 feet tall and that the potential for private and public property damage would be very high. He knew that Hank was strung out and had been drinking. Who's to say he wouldn't have grown in the middle of the bar in a rage and potentially hurt several bystanders?

Cap knows better than this. He's a soldier and he understood in the hostage situation that he wanted to avoid a situation where those hostages could be killed. That's why he ended it without a fight. He didn't need to hurt anyone to stop those men, so he didn't. He let his reputation make them surrender.

He could have done the same with Hank Pym. Either go in there, the way he approached Banner after the Hulk rampage and calm him down before knocking him out, or simply sent in SHIELD soldiers who would have simply arrested him. I think that seeing Cap, someone who was the topic of the argument that sent Hank flying off the handle with Jan in the first place, is likely to make Hank do something very stupid, especially after a few beers.

But Cap didn't care about all that. He wanted to fight him and it didn't matter how much of that building or that construction site was needlessly destroyed.

He made what didn't have to be a non-violent situation violent. And risked the lives of a lot of bystanders. After all, a 60 foot man only a short walk from a crowded bar can hurt a lot of people on accident. Cap's a soldier with plans within plans. He simply knew better.

Did Hank deserve an ass kicking? Probably. But Cap should be smarter and more mature than that.

With the Thor situation, it's not about hating cops or authority. It's about abuse of power on peaceful, unarmed people by trained people with tear gas, batons and guns and completely unprovoked. It was a violent situation and everyone, including Thor, was peaceful until the cops went crazy. That's when Thor stepped in with lower powered lightning, even visually smaller than that he used on Quicksilver, and when the fight was over, he stopped.

Was Thor overboard with the police vehiciles? Maybe. But he didn't damage anything that wasn't part of the fight. The bouncer and the owner of the construction site had nothing to do with the fight between Cap and Hank.


Read your whole post and tell me you do not have double standards.

Your mad with Cap for doing things that did not happen but could have then you give Thor a free ride at the end wiht "he did not damage anything that was part of the fight."

I am going by WHAT happened in the fight with Hank and the situation with Thor. Cap could have thrown punches at Thor without hearing him out (if he was so hell bent on fighting Thor as everyone thinks why did he let Thor state his side and not jsut sucker punch him? I see it as he pushed past the bouncer to confront Thor abou betraying them), he could have attacked Hank INSIDE the bar and endangered people yet he brought him to a abandoned ally and abandonded construction site.

By your Logic it is possible that the cars (yes plural as we see two flying through the air on fire) Thor hit had babies in them or sent a tire flying and killed 10 people. Hell for all we know the 13 Police officers who all go flying when struck by lightning all land on their necks and become quadrapelegics. But it is ok becuase he those cars were part of the fight, they threw the first punch even not like that peacful contruction site, poor thing. And it is also ok to hit mind controled Policemen with lightning too (yeah its weak lighting about as weak as the lighting that blw up two cars by the art) and use your other weather powers because they should have been stronger willed and resisted Loki.

But hey its ok because Thor is great, considering he only helped stop the Hulk (who was murdering people in his rampage) becasue the president doubled the International Aid budget, what a HERO!

*Oh and they do talk about a warrant being issued for Hank just before Cap goes after him, but I guess regular police should have arrested a guy who can grow to 60 feet tall.

[Red State Cap]

Nothing is more pathetic that someone who cannot admit they are applying a double-standard to an argument.
Every violent action by Thor is both justified and minimized. Those police cars that go flying through the air, on fire, of course didn't have anyone IN them! Of course, they didn't LAND on anyone, or scatter burning GASOLINE across a wide swath of the crowd. Perish the thought! And those lightning bolts are, of course, JUST ENOUGH to dissuade those thug officers from further violence. Not enough, of course, to kill the odd officer who might have a heart condition, or cause permanent nervous system damage to anyone.
I am also still waiting for those (Brian and Smash) who claim that Cap has violated Hank Pym's due process rights, to present an argument explaining how Thor followed due legal process at the protest.

Going back to Ultimates volume 1 #5. Thor clearly holds the U.S. government hostage to political demands, AT THE COST OF BOTH LIFE AND PROPERTY. As the Hulk is rampaging through New York, killing (by the end) 800-odd people, Thor is WITHOLDING his assistance to leverage political concessions from the U.S. Government. How many lives did that cost, eh? Of course, because you leftists AGREE with Thor's goals, the question of how many people were being killed while Thor is sitting out waiting for the U.S. government's concession, is left conveniently un-asked. So, how many people do you think WERE killed while Thor was engaging in blackmail? Give me a percentage. Maybe 5% of the total? Maybe 10%? Come on, hazard a guess!

RSC

[Jake V]

Going back to Ultimates volume 1 #5. Thor clearly holds the U.S. government hostage to political demands, AT THE COST OF BOTH LIFE AND PROPERTY. As the Hulk is rampaging through New York, killing (by the end) 800-odd people, Thor is WITHOLDING his assistance to leverage political concessions from the U.S. Government. How many lives did that cost, eh? Of course, because you leftists AGREE with Thor's goals, the question of how