Christianity in Anime

[Rabid Trekkie]

This is something I've been wanting to post on here for awhile but I've always been afraid it would end up in a flame war, so in case it does I would just like the mods to know that was not my intent.

Anyway I've been wondering what part Christianity plays in some anime and other Japanese entertainment? I know in Castle in the Sky the castle was said to have destroyed Sodom and Gomorah, Evangelion has a lot of references to christianity, and in the manga Hunter X Hunter Kurapika uses a cross on the end of a chain, I know there's other references as well.

Is this because Christianity is growing in Japan and so some of the writers are some denomination of Christianity? Do they just like some of the ideas in the Bible and so incorporate them into what they are writing? Or is it the people who are dubbing the anime/translating the manga/translating the game that are putting in the JudeoChristian references?

[fuaak]

The generally accepted theory is that they just imagine arbitrary judeo-christian references to be exotic and deep.

One thing is certain - it's not the translators doing it.

[Melchior]

Agreed. Christian referrences are included because they seem "cool", more than any personal belief of the author. Kinda like throwing in Greek/Roman or Norse God referrences in various western literature.

If you're lucky, though, its at least internally consistent.

[Daemon]

Depends on the genre too.

Chrno Crusade is full of Catholic refences IIRC, but thats because its an anime/manga about priests and nuns exorcising demons.

[SpydaWeb]

I agree with fuaak and Melchior. It seems to be a gold mine for ideas. Not a sign of christian's writing more material.

I'd like to add that in my exposure to Japanese film (anime/live action), I've found that Christianity has spurred on quite a few ideas in all sorts of films. Dramas, Action films, Scifi, and all that.

For non-Christians, especially, the mystical parts of the religion.

[DrewTheXenocide]

Agreed. Christian referrences are included because they seem "cool", more than any personal belief of the author. Kinda like throwing in Greek/Roman or Norse God referrences in various western literature.

If you're lucky, though, its at least internally consistent.


I completely agree that it's all about the "cool" factor of it. I've gotta admit, there are some facinating mythos and ideas in Christian stories, and it shows alotta good vs. evil, light vs. dark, angels vs. devils and whatnot... and it does seem "cool".

[Sanagi]

Yup, it's just like Marvel basing a character on Thor, the Norse god of thunder. Borrowing religious/mythological images and ideas is kind of a shortcut; you already know that they'll strike a chord with the audience.

[Inkthinker]

It's also a lot easier for a traditionally non-Christian culture to cherry-pick the interesting and appropriate aspects of the religious mythology to suit their stories.

Another series which makes heavy use of multiple Judeo-Christian aspects is Hellsing, which has Protestants and Catholics in a secret cold war over certain topics such as the use of a "tame" vampire to battle the forces of evil.

[Hiromi]

Spriggan is another anime that throws in Christian references.

[The Real Nemo]

The manga series Cross makes *very* heavy handed use of Catholicism and Kabbalism...

[DrewTheXenocide]

Well, since it's called "Cross" not much less would be expected.

Most anime that deals with demons, vampires, or ghosts (oh my!), is most likely gonna have some sort of Christian themes in it.

[Chou Blaster]

Well it is Eastern culture, burrowing from Western culture and adding it's own twist to it.

And Chrisainity has some time span In Japan. Nobugna Oda was apparently worshipping the Christain faith.

[The Real Nemo]

Well it is Eastern culture, burrowing from Western culture and adding it's own twist to it.

And Chrisainity has some time span In Japan. Nobugna Oda was apparently worshipping the Christain faith.
I wouldn't go that far, more like he used it to his advantage...

[Chou Blaster]

I wouldn't go that far, more like he used it to his advantage...

Yeha that sums it up much better.

"No matter what horrible things I do! I pray to GOd, accept Jesus and I will not burn fo rit!"

[Buzz Dixon]

Naru in LOVE HINA and Ran in the anime SUPERGALS!/manga GALS both wear crosses and while they have their prickly moments, they generally adhere to Christian ethics, so while there's no firm proof they are supposed to be Christian characters there's nothing to rule it out, either. Likewise there some hints that some of the characters in AZUMANGA DAIOH may be Christian but again nothing concrete.

RURONI KENSHIN has a major story arc about a Christian cult in late 19th/early 20th century Japan.

There have been Japanese anime commissioned by Western companies specifically for the Christian market; THE FLYING HOUSE is one and I think there's at least one other.

re Christianity in Japan: It goes back many, many centuries and has had more adherents in some eras than others. Read/watch SHOGUN for a look at how Christians from the West interacted with the Japanese Christians.

Nagasaki has long been a major community for Christian bvelievers in Japan, and indeed during WWII it was assumed by the Japanese that there would be no major attacks on Nagasaki because so many Christians lived there.

Man, they shoulda seen what we did to Cologne...

[Rabid Trekkie]

Naru in LOVE HINA and Ran in the anime SUPERGALS!/manga GALS both wear crosses and while they have their prickly moments, they generally adhere to Christian ethics, so while there's no firm proof they are supposed to be Christian characters there's nothing to rule it out, either. Likewise there some hints that some of the characters in AZUMANGA DAIOH may be Christian but again nothing concrete.

RURONI KENSHIN has a major story arc about a Christian cult in late 19th/early 20th century Japan.

There have been Japanese anime commissioned by Western companies specifically for the Christian market; THE FLYING HOUSE is one and I think there's at least one other.

re Christianity in Japan: It goes back many, many centuries and has had more adherents in some eras than others. Read/watch SHOGUN for a look at how Christians from the West interacted with the Japanese Christians.

Nagasaki has long been a major community for Christian bvelievers in Japan, and indeed during WWII it was assumed by the Japanese that there would be no major attacks on Nagasaki because so many Christians lived there.

Man, they shoulda seen what we did to Cologne...

The other one was called Super Book.

And I knew about some of the christian history of Japan, took a big downfall when one of the Tokugawa shoguns went to war with the christian japanese in southern Japan. I was just interested in how it was influencing them today.

And I didn't know that about Nagasaki, that's really interesting.

[The Real Nemo]

Yeha that sums it up much better.

"No matter what horrible things I do! I pray to GOd, accept Jesus and I will not burn fo rit!"
*nods* It also helped him in his dealings with Western missionaries and traders and gave him an excuse to go after his Buddhist enemies...

[Adam Crocker]

Generally my experience has been that anime uses Judeo-Christian references because they are exotic as opposed to really understanding the stuff.


Another series which makes heavy use of multiple Judeo-Christian aspects is Hellsing, which has Protestants and Catholics in a secret cold war over certain topics such as the use of a "tame" vampire to battle the forces of evil.

It probably suffers little from a cavalier use of Christianity in it since neither the comic nor the animation delve very far into the characters' religions, though I do wonder about the appropriateness of Integra referring to the Church of England as "The Protestant Church." I don't think that term has ever been applied to it.

(And Alucard's certainly more tame than Father Anderson. :eek: )

[Buzz Dixon]

And I knew about some of the christian history of Japan, took a big downfall when one of the Tokugawa shoguns went to war with the christian japanese in southern Japan.

My wife (she's from Seoul) and I are watching a Korean historical drama about Admiral Yi on a local station (Yi Soon-shin was the inventor of the "turtleboats," the first ironclad warships, and the supreme patriotic figure in Korean history).

The sub-plots include the Japanese plotting to provoke a war with Korea in order to gain the country as a staging ground for an invasion of China; in a sub-plot within the sub-plot, several Japanese advisors who are counseling against war are ( or perhaps more properly, "were" since the new shogun was insisting everyone on his staff abandon Western influences, especially religious ones) Christians. They attempt to prevent the war plans from moving forward and, failing in that, try to persuade the Koreans to voluntarily align themselves with the Japanese.

But...that didn't happen and the result was a pair of wars that Yi Soon-shin won with superior tactics and technology.

[Rabid Trekkie]

My wife (she's from Seoul) and I are watching a Korean historical drama about Admiral Yi on a local station (Yi Soon-shin was the inventor of the "turtleboats," the first ironclad warships, and the supreme patriotic figure in Korean history).

The sub-plots include the Japanese plotting to provoke a war with Korea in order to gain the country as a staging ground for an invasion of China; in a sub-plot within the sub-plot, several Japanese advisors who are counseling against war are ( or perhaps more properly, "were" since the new shogun was insisting everyone on his staff abandon Western influences, especially religious ones) Christians. They attempt to prevent the war plans from moving forward and, failing in that, try to persuade the Koreans to voluntarily align themselves with the Japanese.

But...that didn't happen and the result was a pair of wars that Yi Soon-shin won with superior tactics and technology.

Is this historical drama here in the US? If so I'd love to see it.

[Inkthinker]

(And Alucard's certainly more tame than Father Anderson. :eek: )

Well yeah, I figured that was irony at play. :D

[Adam Crocker]

Well yeah, I figured that was irony at play. :D

Yes, but now the serious question: are they housebroken?

[Buzz Dixon]

Is this historical drama here in the US? If so I'd love to see it.

It's called THE IMMORTAL YI SOON-SHIN and runs on Saturday and Sunday at 8pm on L.A. station KXLA. I don't know if it's playing locally on other cities' Korean stations.

[Pikachu]

SERIAL EXPERIMENT: LAIN is the retelling of the Messiah story. I'm surprised nobody has mentioned it yet. It is basically the Buddhist interpretation of the Christ legend, and updated it for the 21st century of cyber-techno-punk noir. Do you ever wonder where the Wychowski Bros. got the idea for "The Matrix"? It wasn't "Ghost in the Shell", although that was a stylistic reference for them.

Japanese do an interesting thing in which they assimilate any foreign influence and then Japanize it. It becomes a part of Japanese culture in such a unique way that it can't transform back into its original form. They just seem to run with it no matter how bizarre or mixed matched it is. However, that's part of there vast social imagination at work, especially when it comes to re-interpreting other cultures and beliefs.

Shiro Amakusa is by far Japan's most exciting historical brush with Christianity, for those who are interested. Also, if you ever have a chance to go to the town Amakusa, Japan, it also has what are known as the "Pearl Islands", which are a group of seven islands linked together by bridges which span out across the ocean.

Pika!

[lonewolf23k]

Sounds to me like Anime and Manga use Christianity references for the same purpose that Western comics and shows sometimes use Japanese cultural and religious elements... ...For a Cool and Exotic note of flavor.

[Buzz Dixon]

Pika -- I'm a big fan of SERIAL EXPERIMENT LAIN and have told people "it's THE MATRIX for pre-teen girls."

[Pikachu]

I think most people are put off by "Lain" because there are no ninjas or giant robot fights in the series. And it's philosophical and intelligent... right up there with the latter half of EVA. I'm suprised more people don't like it. I mean, girls, guys, religious buffs, people who knew the "WIRE" was the direct influence for the "MATRIX" films. You think it would get more credit.

Spoiler:
I really love the fact that it's the "Christ" story from the perspective of an 12 year old girl. That really puts a twist in the Christian patriarachal design. Also, it then moves one step further and talks about the "spirit" existing in the digital sphere...via a form of web energy and spiritual energy intermingling in the "WIRE." It's very intelligent, and far before its time.

Pika!

[abbas.khan]

i fell asleep watching it. by the end of it was so tired... it was just agh!

[Sanagi]

I love Lain but it's not really much like the story of Christ (or the Matrix for that matter) at all, so I think comparing it to that is reading way too much into it.

[Dee-chan]

I think that the reason Christianity is a popular thread in anime is that it adds depth, which is pretty cool and very appealing. By incorporating Christian stories or themes into an anime, it gives thousands of years of background story to it. Personally, I'll go for the anime that seems like it has some kind of complex background to it over the easy to understand plotline. Part of the fun in anime I think is piecing the puzzle together for yourself.

[Sanagi]

I think that the reason Christianity is a popular thread in anime is that it adds depth, which is pretty cool and very appealing. By incorporating Christian stories or themes into an anime, it gives thousands of years of background story to it. Personally, I'll go for the anime that seems like it has some kind of complex background to it over the easy to understand plotline. Part of the fun in anime I think is piecing the puzzle together for yourself.
On the other hand, borrowing religious imagery can be a cheat to make a story seem deep when it's actually not(I'm looking at you, Xenogears).

[Pikachu]

Sanagi said: I love Lain but it's not really much like the story of Christ (or the Matrix for that matter) at all, so I think comparing it to that is reading way too much into it.

I only stated that it was an "Influence" on the Matrix films... but more than that, Lain's "WIRE" was the template for the "MATRIX" concept itself. Anyone who understands blatant plagiarism can see that... no reading into it. It's obvious, sort of like the upcoming movie "STEALTH" is a rip off of "Macross Plus" and "Yuki-kaze." You don't have to read into it, or anything like that.

As for the Christian elements, they are definitely there. What makes a smart film vs. a not so smart one? A smart film will get you to think about it, a dumb film will tell and show you too much... so your brain goes numb. Everyone knows there are "Christian symbols" in EVA because it's flashing big crosses at you all the time, and some of the Characters names are biblical in origin. However, that's about when the mythos ends... because anybody who has actually read books, will know the philosophy behind EVA is definitely Nitchian, with some Derridian concepts thrown in, and a whole entire slew of other philosophies, including the director's own keen sense of Nihilism. You don't have to read into it at all, just have to have read a little.

Then there is Lain, which many do find boring, but that's because it's looking at Christianity through a Buddhist lens, and that's where many get confused. The key is to study up on your book of LUKE, JOHN and Revelation, then take a gander at some Buddhist concepts, such as the 8-fold path to enlightenment. It is entirely obvious that the themes in Lain follow Christ's death and rebirth story, along with the strong notion of salvation. Lain also meets God in much a similar way, and the playful spirit of God willing to have Lain with him in the sky to sit down and have a cup of tea -may not be right out of the good book, but it captures the love of God. Lain asks the same questions as Christ, and so too also must sacrifice herself to save all of humanity. If these themes weren't so uncanny in their exact verbatim ideological questioning of religion and faith, especially the Christian kind, I would agree that I may be "reading into it" a tad too much. But you don't have to, it's there on the surface. Lain even has the "false God" or "Prophet"... in Christianity it is called the "Anti-Christ." Of course, I'm not saying that Lain is a rip off... it's a different understanding of Christianity through a different precept of ideologies and beliefs. Christianity is this sense was just the "colorful" addition to a techno-story about a little girl who saves the day.

Another "Matrix" comparison would be the concept of transmitting the "soul" or "holly-spirit" into the digital realm. If you don't think that is a direct influence on the "Neo" character doing the exact same thing in the "Matrix: Reloaded" then I beg of you to watch the films a little more carefully. It's extremely obvious, at least to those who don't fall asleep when there brains are challenged by a thought provoking film. Just kidding! Again, the film isn't for everybody, and if it's not your cup of tea (pun intended) then that's cool too. My only point was, just like in EVA, it's pretty straight forward, and the parallels are too close to look past. I wouldn't say it is a matter of over-reading or reading too much into it, personally, I think it's only a matter of being well read. ;)

Pika!

[KameTen]

Methinks you are looking far too deeply into something that is not as deep as you claim it to be.

[Pikachu]

Possibly. And EVA was possibly ONLY (only!) about giant robots fighting and nothing else. Possibly. And possibly, there was no greater meaning behind the "Matrix" franchise than special effects. Possibly. Oh, and Lain is possibly only about a little cyber punk who checks her AOL messages. That's all, nothing more. If ONLY (only!). Anything is possible.

Pika!

[KameTen]

Possibly. And EVA was possibly ONLY (only!) about giant robots fighting and nothing else. Possibly. And possibly, there was no greater meaning behind the "Matrix" franchise than special effects. Possibly. Oh, and Lain is possibly only about a little cyber punk who checks her AOL messages. That's all, nothing more. If ONLY (only!). Anything is possible.

Pika!

EVA started out about fighting robots and aliens and whiny punks, but degraded into one long self help anime by the end topped off by the utter destruction of the characters, physically and personality wise.

There was only an interesting (if possibly unoriginal) question behind the Matrix when it first started, which delved into "deep for the sake of being deep for sheep and fans" questions and a wooden pseudo-Jesus chewing up screen time.

And Lain may just be about human connections and nothing more.

Everything is possible, including impossiblity; Reality is relative; and Existence falls under an either or category.

[Sanagi]

The only symbols and names that appear in Lain that can be considered allegorical to religion are really more like conspiracy theory references - the tool and measure symbolism of the Masons, and the possible reference to the Knights Templar. The ideas that could be considered religious in nature - levels of consciousness, the dissolution of the self - can be traced to the writings of philosophers/mind experimenters like John Lilly, who is specifically mentioned by name in the show, and Douglas Rushkoff, whose book "Cyberia" is blatantly referenced. No such blatant reference is made to Christianity. And Lain definitely does not "save humanity" at the end. She only fixes the disruption that her presence in the world caused.

[Inkthinker]

Interestingly enough, the later episodes (specifically the last 3) of Samurai Champloo touch briefly on the persecution and massacres of Christian missionaries in feudal Japan.

[Scubbily]

I haven't watched enough anime to notice christianity, but ChronoCrusade is the only one I can think of that deals with nuns and stuff, though that might be Catholicism.

[Pikachu]

Miyazaki films may not have direct references to Christianity, but he did throw in Laputa. That's a vague coralation to Jonathan Swift's satire "Gulliver's Travels" in which he distinctly uses Laputa to depict the futile fued going on between two opposing forces. His commentary was specifically addressing the Catholic and Prodestant war, and the silliness of such a bickering. Of course there is more to it than that, and the relation to Miyazaki's Laputa, is not withstanding other than the borrowing of the "floating isleland" concept. The two versions are entirely different, yet both imaginatively supercharged!

Pika!

[The Real Nemo]

I haven't watched enough anime to notice christianity, but ChronoCrusade is the only one I can think of that deals with nuns and stuff, though that might be Catholicism.
Catholicism is Christianity, and according to the extras on the DVD the Magdalene Order is really non-denominational anyway...

[Scubbily]

Huh, didn't know that. So why are Catholic churches so much different than other christian churches. Is it because they are more of an aggressive christian denomination?

[The Real Nemo]

Huh, didn't know that. So why are Catholic churches so much different than other christian churches. Is it because they are more of an aggressive christian denomination?
The other Christian denominations broke off with the Catholic Church back during the Protestant Reformation because they didn't agree with some of its beliefs and policies, but they're all still considered Christian.

[Buzz Dixon]

Huh, didn't know that. So why are Catholic churches so much different than other christian churches. Is it because they are more of an aggressive christian denomination?
There are several different Christian churches dating back to the second and third centuries, including but not limited to the Coptic church in Ethiopia and Egypt, the Orthodox churches of Greece and Russia, the Anabaptists, and the Roman Catholic Church which for a variety of fascinating historical factors too lengthy to go into here became the dominant church of Western Europe.

There were a number of heretical and splinter groups, some noteworthy, most not. Martin Luther sought to reform the Roman Catholic church (which had become corrupt in a variety of ways) but the German princes saw an opportunity to set up their own church and keeps their tithes inside Germany, not shipped off to Rome. Meanwhile, Henry the VIII of England wanted a divorce and, finding the Catholic pope unwilling to grant him one, started his own church, the Anglicans.

The real fun started with John Calvin and the beginnings of the Presbyterian movement (the current church by that name is a far cry from the original movement; that's not a ciriticism, just a statement of fact), and once the Americas were opened up a vast and often bewildering array of Protestant denominations sprang up.

To qualify as a Christian church, a religious group must (a) believe there is only one God (b) that Christ is God in human form come as a sacrifice to atone for the sins of the world (c) only by accepting Christ as this sacrifice may one be forgiven of one's sins.

There are numerous pseudo-Christian groups out there which adopt the trappings of Christianity but not (a) and/or (b) and/or (c).

[Daniel Lewis]

I always thought it'd be cool if they made an anime story of Christ's life, but focused on the supernatural stuff-- cuz that is IMO, what really fascinates the anime -watching public.


"Who is this man, that even the wind and the waves obey Him?"

[pirulaso]

yes there is symbolism in anime from various religions. the real question is does it make the anime good? matrix one was awesome, he filled out the life of jesus or whatever and bam. its done. but they dragged it on through two more movies which was a bit silly. i mean hell, the resurection happened in the first movie. the point is, symbolism doesnt mean something is good. sometimes they screw up the symbolism is all i am sayen.

[AnimeAvatar]

I've just started watching Lain and i didn't notice the symbolism. I'll go back and look, i'd be interested to see how much there realy is in that one.

I'm currently doing a term paper on Shogun so when i started hearing references i was using on the paper in Samurai Shamploo, that caught my attention. That anime is rather thick(language,violence, etc.) so i hadn't expected anything like that in the show. It's kind of nice in a way, to see the different genres' that are able to incorperate it into the story-line, even if it's just for appeal.

[yeoman]

On the other hand, borrowing religious imagery can be a cheat to make a story seem deep when it's actually not(I'm looking at you, Xenogears).

What's funny, is that ends up being the super head trip part of III and kinda ruins what was, otherwise, my favorite game in the series.

[yeoman]

I haven't watched enough anime to notice christianity, but ChronoCrusade is the only one I can think of that deals with nuns and stuff, though that might be Catholicism.

Nuns show here and there in anime. ONe Pound Gospel. One of the supporting characters in My Hime is a nun. I'm pretty sure I've seen a few others here and there. Those are the only two I can think of off the top of my head though.

[Hikari Tsukishiro]

Well, there aren't really that many Christians in japan.
Less than 1% of Japanese people are Christian.

[Vaiyt]

Many times it's just references thrown in for exotic flavor. Historical references often relate to the particular story of Christianity in Japan.

[The Real Nemo]

Well, there aren't really that many Christians in japan.
Less than 1% of Japanese people are Christian.
That's still about a million people give or take.

[Citizen V]

Im thinking that Christianity in Anime is becomming more popular.Im seeing more images of it in anime series..

[Darth Joker]

A few general points...

1. To a certain extent, Christiniaty is to Japan (and hence anime/manga) what Buddhism is to North America (and hence North American cartoons/comic books). Often times when I see Buddhism delved into in a North American-made production (even if simply through isolated Buddhist ideas like reincarnation, karma, and an unique type of pacifism), it gives this deep/exotic/trendy feel to it. Many in North America are fascinated by Buddhism because it's "different", and "exotic", to them. Some of us North Americans actually become Buddhists because of it... but most don't. Most will take their meditation, and zen, and talk of karma, but still remain Christians, Jews, agnostics, etc...

Likewise, I get the sense that Christianity benefits somewhat from this 'novel due to being culturally alien' feeling in Japan, but that it doesn't result in many actual conversions to Christianity (though it certainly wouldn't surprise me if it does result in some). It's new, and hence exciting, to many in the Japanese culture. I've heard rumours that the lady behind the Sailor Moon series in Japan is Christian (and there's actually *a lot* of generally positive Christian allegories/symbolism in Sailor Moon), but beyond that, I wouldn't speculate as to the actual beliefs of the makers of the animes/mangas. OTOH...

2. I remember reading somewhere that Japan has a much more... ecumenical, you could say... approach to religion than we in the West typically do. This is how that 1% figure may poorly reflect the degree of Christianity in Japan. I've read that many Japanese people combine elements of many different mainstream faiths to arrive at their own personal faith - the idea of two religions being mutually exclusive is less prominent in Japan than in North America. So, the number of Japanese people who hold to some elements of the Christian faith may be much higher than 1%.

3. The video game/anime Xenosaga is probably the best/most thorough approach to Christianity amongst Japanese-made fictional content. I actually felt goosebumps over the heavy use of Christianity in that game trilogy. I never played all the way through, but I heard from a friend who did that it was heavily implied that Jesus Christ Himself made a brief cameo appearance in the game (along with the possible interpretation of KOS-MOS being Mary Magdalene reincarnated... yeah, Christianity through a Buddhist lens is probably a good way to describe it).

[Darth Joker]

As for Serial Experiment Lain, it's fairly clear to me how that helped to inspire the Matrix.

That being said, I find the idea of Lain being a "Christ story" figure to be very difficult to imagine from what I saw of the anime (I didn't watch all of it, but roughly 75% of it... I eventually found it overly intellectual/too boring - I like *some* action in my anime).

Serial Experiment Lain gave me a very existentialist feeling, actually.

[The Xenos]

Very interesting comparison, Buddhism in US films and shows.

Generally you see anime with Christian touches... and it doesn't make much sense. As someone who's studied Christianity all his life, it's rather funny to see how some shows totally don't get it. Random religious symbolism in anime is somewhat hilarious.

The one that sticks out to me, one of my favorite anime in general too, is Evangelion. They took Christianity, Kaballah, some Eastern thought, and psychology like Freud and tossed it in a blender. They peppered eps with varios religios talk and religious imagry to see deep. Not sure if it actually worked, but it sure makes the show interesting.

Depends on the genre too.

Chrno Crusade is full of Catholic refences IIRC, but thats because its an anime/manga about priests and nuns exorcising demons.

Lol. Please. The DaVinci Code was more accurate than Chrono Crusade. As heretical and full of BS the DaVinci Code's claims about Mary Magdelene, it's still more accurate than the crazy stuff in Chrono.

Now I like the book, even met the creator, but it has the most uninformed take on Christianity I've ever seen. At the same time, if you're going to make up crap about Mary Magdeline, you might as well run with it and make it crazy and entertaining like they did here.

Oh and it isn't just the Catholics that exorcisize demons. I gotta give a shout out to my church. The Orthodox Church maintains just as many, if not more traditions than the Catholics. Plus we never made stuff up like Papal infallibility and we never made up lies that Mary Magdaline was a whore. Even the Catholic Church has officially retracted that statement. Though still plenty of churches and school teach it. I went to one that told us how Pope John Paul II (back when he was alive) had fixed the church's treaching about Mary and then the next week in a school assembly we see her as a prostitute again. BAH!

Anyway, my two cents (and then some) on the whole Mary Madeline thing.

[yeoman]

3. The video game/anime Xenosaga is probably the best/most thorough approach to Christianity amongst Japanese-made fictional content. I actually felt goosebumps over the heavy use of Christianity in that game trilogy. I never played all the way through, but I heard from a friend who did that it was heavily implied that Jesus Christ Himself made a brief cameo appearance in the game (along with the possible interpretation of KOS-MOS being Mary Magdalene reincarnated... yeah, Christianity through a Buddhist lens is probably a good way to describe it).

Major spoilers for the last third of Xenosaga III ahead.



Yes, Christ pulls a cameo in a flashback at the end of three. KOS-MOS was the soul of Mary Magdalene shoved in a cobot robot body. Her opposite in the third game, TELOS, was the phsyical body of Mary Magdalene with... I dunno what was controlling it. The game just stopped making sense for two hours at that point.

Frankly, the game was working much better when it was merely aluding to all this rather than flat out stating it. And I mean flat out. The game stops, lays this all out in exact language and they refer to KOS-MOS as Mary fro a couple hours.

It comes off very headtrippy. Otherwise three was the best of the series.



Fantastic music in it. I bought the soundtrack for III some of the music was so good.

Shame the second game wasn't that good or we might have gotten the rest of the series.

[The Real Nemo]

Lol. Please. The DaVinci Code was more accurate than Chrono Crusade. As heretical and full of BS the DaVinci Code's claims about Mary Magdelene, it's still more accurate than the crazy stuff in Chrono.

Now I like the book, even met the creator, but it has the most uninformed take on Christianity I've ever seen. At the same time, if you're going to make up crap about Mary Magdeline, you might as well run with it and make it crazy and entertaining like they did here.

Oh and it isn't just the Catholics that exorcisize demons. I gotta give a shout out to my church. The Orthodox Church maintains just as many, if not more traditions than the Catholics. Plus we never made stuff up like Papal infallibility and we never made up lies that Mary Magdaline was a whore. Even the Catholic Church has officially retracted that statement. Though still plenty of churches and school teach it. I went to one that told us how Pope John Paul II (back when he was alive) had fixed the church's treaching about Mary and then the next week in a school assembly we see her as a prostitute again. BAH!

Anyway, my two cents (and then some) on the whole Mary Madeline thing.
To be fair, the Magdaline Order isn't exactly supposed to be Catholic. In the anime they were stated to be nondenominational, and in the manga version I'm not even sure if they're Christian. Or if Christianity as we know it exists at all in that world. Unlike the manga the anime version at least made some attempt to incorporate actual Christian beliefs into it instead of just using the names and making up their own definitions for them as they went long.

[The Xenos]

I acutally haven't finished reading Chrono Crusade or watching it even though I got the DVDs. Anyway, a friend spoiled it for me and told me about how Mary Magdaline was (spoiler?) a demon hunter in the 1800s or something. I forget what year he said, but it was totally innacurate and does have nothing to do with the acutal historial Mary Magdeline. Again, the Japanese creator just took a name and ran with it.

Catholicism is Christianity, and according to the extras on the DVD the Magdalene Order is really non-denominational anyway...

The other Christian denominations broke off with the Catholic Church back during the Protestant Reformation because they didn't agree with some of its beliefs and policies, but they're all still considered Christian.

Um.. Just so you know, before any of that happened the Pope broke off from the main Christian Church. Of course they say we broke off from them. Anyway, the Christian Church split into east and west. So you have what is now the Othrodox Church in the east and the Pope and the Catholic. Of course, before then the Coptics broke off from the main Church.

Also, as poster Pikachu there was talking about Lain and Matrix, that stuff is from the Gnostic Christians (which we consider heretical). Really, it's not new. The Gnostics have been saying it for centuries. Plus Grant Morrison says Matrix ripped off his Invisibles comic, but I think they all were riffing off Gnostic beliefs about reality. Of course Lain might have a point. There's a new digital gnostic movement, where the internet and digital media is becoming more and more of a reality. But that's a whole other issue.

Anyway. Don't worry about not knowing about the pre-Catholic schism Christian Church. They don't teach about that stuff in history classes in America anyway. The Pope created Christianity and then the Protestants broke off. Oh and Jesus was white and a Christian. There, that's all you need to know. Don't question it.

[The Real Nemo]

I acutally haven't finished reading Chrono Crusade or watching it even though I got the DVDs. Anyway, a friend spoiled it for me and told me about how Mary Magdaline was (spoiler?) a demon hunter in the 1800s or something. I forget what year he said, but it was totally innacurate and does have nothing to do with the acutal historial Mary Magdeline. Again, the Japanese creator just took a name and ran with it.
Right in the original manga that's exactly what they did. In the anime though they tried to form a connection between that Mary Magdaline and the original one similar to Xenosaga III.
Um.. Just so you know, before any of that happened the Pope broke off from the main Christian Church. Of course they say we broke off from them. Anyway, the Christian Church split into east and west. So you have what is now the Othrodox Church in the east and the Pope and the Catholic. Of course, before then the Coptics broke off from the main Church.
You're talking about the divide between the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches here I take it?
Anyway. Don't worry about not knowing about the pre-Catholic schism Christian Church. They don't teach about that stuff in history classes in America anyway. The Pope created Christianity and then the Protestants broke off. Oh and Jesus was white and a Christian. There, that's all you need to know. Don't question it.
Please don't talk down to me like someone who doesn't know anything more than what's taught at Catholic school all right? :rolleyes: Besides which I don't appreciate the way you're (intentionally?) misrepresenting a lot of Catholic views here. My point was that Catholic Church, and the Orthodox Church as well, are just as much Christian as the Protestant ones.

[The Xenos]

Sorry if I came across harsh. I'm just tired of people not knowing anything about my church and thinking that the Pope or the Protestants who broke off from them are the beginning and end of Christianity. I grew up with other kids thinking I worshiped Zeus and not beliving I was Christian. It just bugs me that my church has tried to keep true to tradition and the original group of Christians (and the Judaism it came from).

Alteratively, I did go to a Catholic High School and I did enjoy it. Okay, could have used some girls at the school, that would have been more enjoyable, but I apreciated the school and the Catholic religious education. I do quibble with some facets of the Church, but I try to repect them as a sister church. Plus while I disagree with some Protestants, some of their movements I like. For example, the Episcopalians and their movement for female priests and female rights.

Plus just because the Vatican or the Catholic League says something stupid, that doesn't mean all Catholics are to blame for it. A number of Catholic teachers and relatives I know and have known are amazing in their faith.

And yes, they are all Christians, but they've all evolved into different ideologies and takes on Christ.

Anyway, getting back to the anime aspect, Mary Magdaline was totally misrepresented in Chrono Crusade, but it was cool an enjoyable. Meanwhile the Vatican turned her into a whore and had this whole anti-women sentiment. I forget which Pope centuries ago did it. Thankfully they have officially changed that stance. Sadly, none of that was mentioned in the whole DaVinci code or even the Cameron Tomb of Christ fiasco. Meanwhile, the Eastern church never said that about Mary. She was held in high regard. Though other churches and movements, often labeled heretics, go furtherand even claim that Jesus and Mary had children.

Again, at least the Mary Magadaline in Chrono Crusade is crazy and enjoyable.

[Pikachu]

On the religious conversation, I think a bit of Milton is in order...

“[If] there be any difference among professed believers as to the sense of Scripture, it is their duty to tolerate such difference in each other, until God shall have revealed the truth to all.” –John Milton

On the Anime conversation...

Originally posted by AnimeAvatar
I've just started watching Lain and i didn't notice the symbolism.

After re-watching the "Lain" OVA recently, I found out an interesting thing...

Lain does in fact reference Jesus Christ by name during her Cyber space chat.

Just thought it was worth noting considering all of the people who have blatantly said there was no direct 'Christian' reference or parallels in "Serial Experiment Lain" other than the coincidental use of symbolic imagery. Now that I re-watched the show and found this direct reference to thee Messiah, I'm pretty confident in saying that Lain does in fact parallel this legend more than others are willing to admit. Again, it's not about reading into things... it's about being well read so that you can see where the artists are pulling their inspiration from. Because this inspiration is definitely coming from somewhere... they didn't just wake up one day and whip up a Messiah story from scratch which by happens chance parallels the canonical Messiah story.

Lain isn't the first manga or anime to borrow Christian themes. American comics have been known to do the same. Superman also borrows heavily from the Exodus story of Biblical scripture. The parallels here are uncanny, but notably so, since the creators of Superman were two Jewish dudes. Shoulda' seen that one coming.

However, you've gotta' hand it to the Japanese for putting new and original twists on age old concepts and making them way cool. I think if the Bible was drawn into a manga there'd be more Christians converts. All kidding aside, I love the richness of the stories, both Holy Bible and manga.

Pika! :p

[Trusty Mutsi]

“[If] there be any difference among professed believers as to the sense of Scripture, it is their duty to tolerate such difference in each other, until God shall have revealed the truth to all.” –John Milton

Wow, do I know a lot of people that need to read (and acknowledge) this.

[Sanagi]

After re-watching the "Lain" OVA recently, I found out an interesting thing...

Lain does in fact reference Jesus Christ by name during her Cyber space chat.
Which episode? I don't remember that.

[yeoman]

Lain isn't the first manga or anime to borrow Christian themes. American comics have been known to do the same. Superman also borrows heavily from the Exodus story of Biblical scripture. The parallels here are uncanny, but notably so, since the creators of Superman were two Jewish dudes. Shoulda' seen that one coming.



And both Superman and Superman Returns tried to very hard to make Superman a Christ figure. Listen closely to some of the stuff Jor-El says before he launches his son into space.

[Darth Joker]

Right in the original manga that's exactly what they did. In the anime though they tried to form a connection between that Mary Magdaline and the original one similar to Xenosaga III.

You're talking about the divide between the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches here I take it?

Please don't talk down to me like someone who doesn't know anything more than what's taught at Catholic school all right? :rolleyes: Besides which I don't appreciate the way you're (intentionally?) misrepresenting a lot of Catholic views here. My point was that Catholic Church, and the Orthodox Church as well, are just as much Christian as the Protestant ones.

I agree, although I must admit I know very little about the Orthodox denomination.

The John Milton quote provided by Pikachu is a great one too.

[The Xenos]

Don't worry. Not many people do know about Orthodox Christians. We've done very well in keeping the teaching of Christ pure and un altered. We haven't done so well speading the word, otherwise we'd at least be as popular as the Catholics.

Though seriously, check us out sometime. We have beautiful liturgical services. Sometimes it reminds me more of Buddhist services or anchient Jewish rituals than what I see in many Christian Churches. The whole televangelist and megachurch thing baffles me.

As for the Milton. Hurm. Well, I know we try to keep true to old teachings. I've also heard our church is closest to the Anglicans/Episcopals than even the Catholics. I hear talk of reunifacation, but I just don't know how it would happen.

Also, getting back to Japan and religion, doesn't Japan have the most number of cults per capita or area?

[Pikachu]

Japan's religious ideologies consist heavily of a Shinto and Buddhist foundation. Modern notions of 'free thinking' spiritual movements & beliefs are still heavily guided by traditional and cultural Buddhist and Shinto influence.

There are cults in Japan, but they are very rare. However, if you consider pachinko a cult... then Japan's number one religion is pachinko.

Pika! :eek:

[Sanagi]

After re-watching the "Lain" OVA recently, I found out an interesting thing...

Lain does in fact reference Jesus Christ by name during her Cyber space chat.
Which episode? I don't remember that.

I really am interested in finding this out.

[mgs]

Agreed. Christian referrences are included because they seem "cool", more than any personal belief of the author. Kinda like throwing in Greek/Roman or Norse God referrences in various western literature.

If you're lucky, though, its at least internally consistent.

yup. from most asians I know the christianity even practiced by people from most asian countries is very different from lots of christians i know here in the states. most are very conservative, most like Southern Baptists I know from here in the strictness they adhere to. So, most likely it may be the cool thing but also in how a religion forms in a different culture, is what may be represented in some anime.

[Leslie Lee III]

Japan is a fairly secular culture, much more so than the US. Even of those who could be properly be called religious only a fraction are Christian. It's likely that Christianity in Anime has all the connection to real life belief as the appearance of Zeus and Hera in Xena: Warrior Princess.

[Pikachu]

Sanagi-

I don't remember the exact episode, I'd have to re-watch the full series yet again to find the exact spot... but I did keep some tabs on other interesting Christian mentions.

In the episode: Layer 10 “Love,” Lain states, “There is only one Truth: GOD.” This is an obvious monotheistic tie-in to Christianity, Muslim faith, and Judaic culture predating it.

Soon after, in the same episode, Lain's research into the 'Knights of the Wire' she finds that they date back to the “Knights of Templar.” Of course we all know the 'Knights of Templar' were the Christian Knights from the first Crusades who banded together to protect Christian related artifacts, sites, and holy relics. They also safe guarded Christian religious leaders as well.

Assuredly we aren't the only one's finding reference with the Christian themes within Lain. I found a review at AnimeWorld.com which makes many of the similar connections which we have found.

An excerpt from the review talks about the symbolism of Lain and mentions:
AnimeWorld.com
Eiri and Lain can easily be cast as Internet-age representations of Christian symbols. Eiri, the False God, is a sort of Antichrist--trying to gain control of all people, thinking of himself as a God when he is actually not. More easily, he can be interpreted as Satan, pretending to have true power and tempting Lain. Lain, in turn, is an obvious Christ figure: She is the God of the Wired (and perhaps even connected to the true God, as is at least obliquely implied by the story), but is also made flesh and experiences the world as a human. At some point, she becomes aware of her true nature, and must eventually sacrifice her Earthly form so that the world might return to a peaceful state--a forgiveness of sins, if you will.

Click here for the full AnimeWorld review of Lain ---> HERE (http://animeworld.com/reviews/lain.html).

Again, I distinctly recall a 'Christ' reference from the series "SE:Lain." Although with all the articles, interviews, and trivia I've read related to the series I may be mistaken, but like I said I'd have to re-watch the whole series first to be sure. Regardless, it is unmistakable the amount of Christian parallels and concepts contained within this particular anime series -more so than any other, I'd assume. :D

Pika!

[AnimeAvatar]

~I think the reason I haven't noticed things in Lain yet is because i'm only on vol. 1, it has been hard finding the rest around my town recently.*people here haven't dawned on the fact that Anime & Manga are popular* The way they have done the series seems unique, which may be why I like it. It's very modern and simple. True it is more "leaves you thinking" than anything else but that appears to be the point so far as I can tell. I'm curious as to whether or not anyone has ever used Lain in their church services... I recently lent Haibane-Renmei to my youth director; if I am able to find the rest of the Lain series then I think I will loan them to her as well.

[AnimeAvatar]

~The comparisson between the use of Buddhism and Christianity is one of the best explanations/examples I think i've ever seen. There are so many different uses of Christianity in Japanese culture, be it in religion or comics, we do almost the exact same thing here with other foreign religions. Finding ways of explaining it can be difficult.

[AnimeAvatar]

~The last time I watched Superman (the original ones) I remember seeing things like yeoman was saying. I'd have to go back and watch to find the exact spots but I know there were other places that had the symbolism besides the launch...can't remember where though...

~Pachinko would count as a cult. If not, it should.



--there are three posts from me because the computer i'm on at this moment is being retarded and it posted the same thing more than once for no reason...sorry, I tried to fix it; it was a long post to begin with--

[The Xenos]

Ow. Ow. Ow. All this talk of Lain is making my head hurt. When I first watched it I wasn't in too sane of a metal state and I had just been through a break up. I sat in the back of our club room watching it and kinda twitching and scratching my hands and fingers together. I've been hesitant to watch it even in saner states.

Also, Lain kinda had this digital Gnostasism and dual world thing to it. Like I said, it was really freaking me out, so I don't remember it too well.

My roomate has seen it before. Before we saw it at club, one time I had opened the door and was standing in the doorway with light peeing it. He totally freaked out because it reminded him of that freaky alien in the door scene in Lain. I later saw what he meant. Oh and that's not a spoiler becase I still don't know what the hell that randomess was about. Freaky as hell still.

Plus if anyone says that The Matrix was 'out there' and deep and confusing, slap them and tell them to check out Lain if they want a real mind f&$#.

[AnimeAvatar]

Like I said, meant to leave you thinking...

[Arilou]

The thing about a lot of animé (and for that matter western fiction as well, although to a lesser degree) is that they tend to use a bunch of christian symbols (and especially certain movements like the gnostics, or the Knights Templar, or catholic imagery....) for "cool value", without always understanding (or caring) about the meaning and context of the symbols: It is exactly the same thing as with the borrowing of asian motifs in western culture in fact.

[Sanagi]

Again, I distinctly recall a 'Christ' reference from the series "SE:Lain." Although with all the articles, interviews, and trivia I've read related to the series I may be mistaken, but like I said I'd have to re-watch the whole series first to be sure. Regardless, it is unmistakable the amount of Christian parallels and concepts contained within this particular anime series -more so than any other, I'd assume. :D
http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/1303/ngelil01ut8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[Pikachu]

Well yeah, then there's EVA. But that's not really a parallel... more of a visual aesthetic which borrows heavily from Christian themes.

But I will say that each series distinctly borrow from different aspects of Christianity. Lain takes the "Messiah" story and runs with it, following it pretty closely. EVA takes a heckuva' lotta' crack... and somehow Christian symbols got thrown into the vat of hallucinogens.

Pika! :p click here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhOCp-dPsjA)

[Sanagi]

I'm a bit tired of arguing with people over what Lain is supposedly really about, but I do want to point out this thorough wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_Experiments_Lain) which goes into great depth about the ideas and inspirations behind Lain, and backs up a lot of my thoughts about the series. (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showpost.php?p=1168738&postcount=36) Religion is obviously relevant(it's the name of an episode), but there's no reason to assume religion automatically implies Christianity.

[The Xenos]

With Eva, Anno was going through a bout of depression, he went to the library, took some books out on Christianity, Kaballah, Buddhism, Freaud, and some books about lonliness. Nine months later, Eva popped out.

[stelok]

There are several anime whose setting is a Catholic school for Girls. Anime such as Strawberry Panic, Marimite, Maria-sama wa giteru, Otome wa Boku ni Koishiteru, etc. There are also Catholic schools for Girls in Ginban Kaleidoscope and GTO Live-action drama.

And there are sure a lot of gun-trotting nuns in like Eva in Black Lagoon, Erica Fountaine in Sakura Wars 3 and Rosette in Chrono Crusade.

The lesbian catholic schoolgirls and gun-trotting nuns are what I would call warped Japanese perception of Catholicism.

Catholicism including confessions, praying, etc is often depicted and discussed in Sakura Wars (Sakura Taisen) 3 game.
__________________

[Darth Joker]

There are several anime whose setting is a Catholic school for Girls. Anime such as Strawberry Panic, Marimite, Maria-sama wa giteru, Otome wa Boku ni Koishiteru, etc. There are also Catholic schools for Girls in Ginban Kaleidoscope and GTO Live-action drama.

And there are sure a lot of gun-trotting nuns in like Eva in Black Lagoon, Erica Fountaine in Sakura Wars 3 and Rosette in Chrono Crusade.

The lesbian catholic schoolgirls and gun-trotting nuns are what I would call warped Japanese perception of Catholicism.

Catholicism including confessions, praying, etc is often depicted and discussed in Sakura Wars (Sakura Taisen) 3 game.
__________________


You know... I think I just figured out why catholicism and lesbianism often go hand-in-hand for female anime/manga characters (such as one lesbian character in Sailor Moon who noticeably also wears a cross around her neck).

From what I've read, the Japanese take a much more liberal approach to sex than North Americans do. They're probably more open about the sexual activity of teens than we in the west are (in fact, they may even encourage it in some rare cases, based on some of what I've read on modern Japanese culture).

So, they see the Catholic gender segregated school system, and think the same way that we think about long stays in gender segregated jails... namely, that it sort of promotes homosexual sexual activity.

[Sanagi]

You know... I think I just figured out why catholicism and lesbianism often go hand-in-hand for female anime/manga characters (such as one lesbian character in Sailor Moon who noticeably also wears a cross around her neck).

From what I've read, the Japanese take a much more liberal approach to sex than North Americans do. They're probably more open about the sexual activity of teens than we in the west are (in fact, they may even encourage it in some rare cases, based on some of what I've read on modern Japanese culture).

So, they see the Catholic gender segregated school system, and think the same way that we think about long stays in gender segregated jails... namely, that it sort of promotes homosexual sexual activity.
You have attributed conditions to anthropology which merely result from hotness.

[Darth Joker]

You have attributed conditions to anthropology which merely result from hotness.

Then why are most anime/manga female characters that are drawn to be attractive presented as heterosexual (we're talking source material here - not fanfics that alter a character's sexual orientation)?

Catholicism (or at least Catholic imagery) seems to be a fairly common aspect among lesbian characters in anime/manga (to the best of my knowledge), but is less prevalent amongst straight female characters.

[Sanagi]

Then why are most anime/manga female characters that are drawn to be attractive presented as heterosexual (we're talking source material here - not fanfics that alter a character's sexual orientation)?
Would it prove anything if anime characters were all gay? I don't see what that has to do with it.


Catholicism (or at least Catholic imagery) seems to be a fairly common aspect among lesbian characters in anime/manga (to the best of my knowledge), but is less prevalent amongst straight female characters.
It's just a winning combination... Exciting religious symbolism + exotic, taboo sexuality.

[Darth Joker]

Would it prove anything if anime characters were all gay? I don't see what that has to do with it.


It's just a winning combination... Exciting religious symbolism + exotic, taboo sexuality.

I see your point a bit more clearly now. Yes, that makes sense.

[Sanagi]

I see your point a bit more clearly now. Yes, that makes sense.
Sorry, I was trying to be clever and ended up not getting the point across very well.

[The Real Nemo]

You know... I think I just figured out why catholicism and lesbianism often go hand-in-hand for female anime/manga characters (such as one lesbian character in Sailor Moon who noticeably also wears a cross around her neck).

From what I've read, the Japanese take a much more liberal approach to sex than North Americans do. They're probably more open about the sexual activity of teens than we in the west are (in fact, they may even encourage it in some rare cases, based on some of what I've read on modern Japanese culture).

So, they see the Catholic gender segregated school system, and think the same way that we think about long stays in gender segregated jails... namely, that it sort of promotes homosexual sexual activity.
Not all Catholic schools are gender segregated though (the one I went to wasn't), and not all gender segregated schools are Catholic.

[Darth Joker]

Not all Catholic schools are gender segregated though (the one I went to wasn't), and not all gender segregated schools are Catholic.

Thanks for the info. :) Are there secular gender segregated schools in Japan? I'm aware of Catholic gender segregated schools, and Jewish segregated schools, but that's all I'm currently aware of.

Sanagi - No problem. :)

[The Real Nemo]

Thanks for the info. :) Are there secular gender segregated schools in Japan? I'm aware of Catholic gender segregated schools, and Jewish segregated schools, but that's all I'm currently aware of.

Sanagi - No problem. :)
I'm pretty sure there are. I know I've heard of anime series that feature all boy or all girls schools that weren't religious, but I can't really think of too many off hand (although Mahora from Negima seems to seperate its male and female students).

[Darth Joker]

I'm pretty sure there are. I know I've heard of anime series that feature all boy or all girls schools that weren't religious, but I can't really think of too many off hand (although Mahora from Negima seems to seperate its male and female students).

...Kodachi Kuno doesn't strike me as particularly religious, but she went to an all-girls school in the Ranma anime/manga. That might support what you're saying here, Real Nemo.

It's cool that you went to a desegregated Catholic school, by the way. That shows a nice advancement for the Catholic church.

Have a nice weekend. :)

[The Real Nemo]

...Kodachi Kuno doesn't strike me as particularly religious, but she went to an all-girls school in the Ranma anime/manga. That might support what you're saying here, Real Nemo.
Heh, well actually the school Kodachi goes to is called "St. Hebereke School for Girls" so... ^_^; I doubt she herself is Catholic, but her family probably sent her there because it was prestigious and maybe in the hopes that they could keep her in line. Not everyone who goes to a Catholic school is Catholic, I knew people in mine who weren't.
It's cool that you went to a desegregated Catholic school, by the way. That shows a nice advancement for the Catholic church.

Have a nice weekend. :)
You too. ^_^

[sun tzu]

I'm surprised that "Amakusa 1637" hasn't been mentionned in this conversation yet.
Basically, it's a manga about a group of Japanese students from a catholic high school (including a walking encyclopedia, a tech genius and several prodigies from the kendo club) getting mysteriously sent back in time to Amakusa in 1637, right when History says that 30000 Christian civilians are about to get slaughtered. The modern kids try to change History, and one of them (a girl, as it were) ends up becoming the historical figure of sir Shiro of Amakusa.
Most of the main cast are very clearly Christians, and act it. One of my favorite parts in it, however, was the following exchange (paraphrased):
At that point, the time-travellers were believed by the local population to be messengers of God, sent down from Heaven. One of them was explaining to a little girl about the place they came from:
"It's a place where we are all free and equal; we have light even at night, we are kept warm even in the winter, and we are free to believe what we want."
At which point another among them gets teary-eyed, and thinks to herself: "I had never realized...that we lived in Heaven."

[Darth Joker]

I'm surprised that "Amakusa 1637" hasn't been mentionned in this conversation yet.
Basically, it's a manga about a group of Japanese students from a catholic high school (including a walking encyclopedia, a tech genius and several prodigies from the kendo club) getting mysteriously sent back in time to Amakusa in 1637, right when History says that 30000 Christian civilians are about to get slaughtered. The modern kids try to change History, and one of them (a girl, as it were) ends up becoming the historical figure of sir Shiro of Amakusa.
Most of the main cast are very clearly Christians, and act it. One of my favorite parts in it, however, was the following exchange (paraphrased):
At that point, the time-travellers were believed by the local population to be messengers of God, sent down from Heaven. One of them was explaining to a little girl about the place they came from:
"It's a place where we are all free and equal; we have light even at night, we are kept warm even in the winter, and we are free to believe what we want."
At which point another among them gets teary-eyed, and thinks to herself: "I had never realized...that we lived in Heaven."

Heh. We do have a lot to be thankful for. ;)

That anime sounds very interesting - I might look into it!

[Pikachu]

Originally Posted by Darth Joker
Are there secular gender segregated schools in Japan? I'm aware of Catholic gender segregated schools, and Jewish segregated schools, but that's all I'm currently aware of.

In a word: Yes. (Both religious and not)

Japan has its own gender segregated schools. In fact, my Japanese fiance went to an all women's high school. :p

However, elementary schools tend to remain co-ed because of Japanese law. Japanese are expected a certain level of integration into society, and school is one of the ways to better integrate society into the homogeneous pot of 'sameness' which the Japanese so admire. Although, gender separation plays a big role later on, since Japanese are a "test happy" type of people. I've never really figured it out, but we spend more time 'testing' the children with a slew of standardized tests then actually 'preparing' them for upper learning.

Comparatively, it's sort of like having an ACT or SAT test once a month... but the government here really likes to keep everyone in the same boat (I.Q. wise). Those who want to excel (independently of the Government sanctioned programs) inevitably end up going to private schools or gender segregated schools, because without the opposite gender it's much easer to focus on studying for these sorts of tests. Also, there tends to be less 'bullying' at same sex schools, something which is a huge problem in Japan right now (Ijime). All this helps cut down on distraction and enables students to study harder.

Higher test scores ultimately mean better high school and college placements since placement depends entirely on your accumulative score (and nothing else). In Japan you can't just have good grades and apply to a school hoping to get in based on your recommendations, a strong essay, and a board of review. You have to be distinguishably a genius (on paper), and then test your way up the latter just like everyone else until you get to the level you want to.

Yet as an educator in Japan, I can't help but see some faults with the system. For one it tests I.Q. more than brilliance. True geniuses are left by the wayside as merely autistic retards, and that never seems fair. Also, the students who haven't been taught the skills they need, due to the fact that they may need different methods of teaching before their minds absorb the material, often don't get the attention or focus they need. This ends up making Japanese more intellectually the same than anything, because everyone is kept within the same level by force of such mandated testing programs.

That said, there are a slew of new alternative schools opening up across Japan (better late than never). And these schools are offering new techniques and teaching methodologies which seek to actually help the student learn while breaking away from the regimented government 'brain neutralizing' program. Hopefully the bits that work will trickle down to the public school system. The transition to a better educated Japan might mean a little less integrated Japan, but at least people would have more choices for their future. Yet it's not like the Japanese suffer a poor education system. Indeed, they have one of the finest. They sponsor the highest literacy rate in the world, and I am constantly surprised at my own students ability to meet the demand of such stringent testing and still manage to stay happy at school. Thank god for club activities!

Pika! :rolleyes:

[Pikachu]

Originally Posted by sun tzu View Post
I'm surprised that "Amakusa 1637" hasn't been mentionned in this conversation yet.

Basically, it's a manga about a group of Japanese students from a catholic high school (including a walking encyclopedia, a tech genius and several prodigies from the kendo club) getting mysteriously sent back in time to Amakusa in 1637, right when History says that 30000 Christian civilians are about to get slaughtered. The modern kids try to change History, and one of them (a girl, as it were) ends up becoming the historical figure of sir Shiro of Amakusa.

Most of the main cast are very clearly Christians, and act it.

Shiro Amakusa is the earliest Christian movements in Japan. Good old repressed farmers revolting against the Imperial samurai army of Japan. The Emperor's unreasonable order to 'stop this Christianity nonsense and give us all of your rice, or die" just didn't sit well with the farmers for some reason. Go figure. Of course they eventually lost the battle, but they put up an amazing fight... especially thanks to the guns from the dutch. Guns which the samurai soldiers didn't have. The army just kept Amakusa under siege until they starved everyone to death. It's really a spectacular story of faith and human willpower.

In fact, the whole Amakusa area is one of my favorite places in Japan. I've been there over seven times.

I love the history, but more importantly, the sea food. Amakusa is famous for its oyster harvesting and the seven islands which are all linked by bridges have been deemed "The Pearl Islands." I once went to an onsen (Japanese hot spring) which butted up against the ocean. We would sit in the hot bath and the ocean spray would leap the dividing wall and spray cooling you while you soaked in a steamy hot tub.

One thing I should point out is the Amakusa Shiro was actually a little boy, although quite effeminate. It is told that he could read the Greek and Latin Bible, given to him as a gift by the Dutch missionary monk Francis Xavier, by age 12 (although I'm not sure how true this is, but it adds to the kids legend). No doubt this child was influential in spreading Christianity into mainland Japan. He was the first Christian 'preacher' of the Gospels the country ever had, and his story is well respected to this day.

Now I'm interested in checking out this series. Thanks for the heads up! :)

[sun tzu]

Heh. We do have a lot to be thankful for. ;)

That anime sounds very interesting - I might look into it!

The manga, you mean.
Truth be told, I'm not sure it's been translated into English yet - I've been reading it in French so far.

[Alex]

I wish some of you guys visisted the game board to throw some of this stuff out when somebody says how deep and thoughtful Xenogears was in it's use of crosses.

[Darth Joker]

In a word: Yes. (Both religious and not)

Japan has its own gender segregated schools. In fact, my Japanese fiance went to an all women's high school. :p

However, elementary schools tend to remain co-ed because of Japanese law. Japanese are expected a certain level of integration into society, and school is one of the ways to better integrate society into the homogeneous pot of 'sameness' which the Japanese so admire. Although, gender separation plays a big role later on, since Japanese are a "test happy" type of people. I've never really figured it out, but we spend more time 'testing' the children with a slew of standardized tests then actually 'preparing' them for upper learning.

Comparatively, it's sort of like having an ACT or SAT test once a month... but the government here really likes to keep everyone in the same boat (I.Q. wise). Those who want to excel (independently of the Government sanctioned programs) inevitably end up going to private schools or gender segregated schools, because without the opposite gender it's much easer to focus on studying for these sorts of tests. Also, there tends to be less 'bullying' at same sex schools, something which is a huge problem in Japan right now (Ijime). All this helps cut down on distraction and enables students to study harder.

Higher test scores ultimately mean better high school and college placements since placement depends entirely on your accumulative score (and nothing else). In Japan you can't just have good grades and apply to a school hoping to get in based on your recommendations, a strong essay, and a board of review. You have to be distinguishably a genius (on paper), and then test your way up the latter just like everyone else until you get to the level you want to.

Yet as an educator in Japan, I can't help but see some faults with the system. For one it tests I.Q. more than brilliance. True geniuses are left by the wayside as merely autistic retards, and that never seems fair. Also, the students who haven't been taught the skills they need, due to the fact that they may need different methods of teaching before their minds absorb the material, often don't get the attention or focus they need. This ends up making Japanese more intellectually the same than anything, because everyone is kept within the same level by force of such mandated testing programs.

That said, there are a slew of new alternative schools opening up across Japan (better late than never). And these schools are offering new techniques and teaching methodologies which seek to actually help the student learn while breaking away from the regimented government 'brain neutralizing' program. Hopefully the bits that work will trickle down to the public school system. The transition to a better educated Japan might mean a little less integrated Japan, but at least people would have more choices for their future. Yet it's not like the Japanese suffer a poor education system. Indeed, they have one of the finest. They sponsor the highest literacy rate in the world, and I am constantly surprised at my own students ability to meet the demand of such stringent testing and still manage to stay happy at school. Thank god for club activities!

Pika! :rolleyes:

Thanks for that excellent information. :)

I will admit that I can see some pros to the gender segregated schools approach - no opposite sex on the school grounds obviously translates into fewer distractions for teenage students during school. ;)

[Darth Joker]

I wish some of you guys visisted the game board to throw some of this stuff out when somebody says how deep and thoughtful Xenogears was in it's use of crosses.

Taking crosses and calling them 'zohars' arguably defeats the purposes of using crosses. However, there was a scene in the first Xenosaga game where the hero team was looking at 12 (or was it 13?) zohars, and each one carried an identification associating it with Jesus, or one of Jesus' Twelve Disciples.

That genuinely impressed me a bit... as they were right on all the names, IIRC. That showed that the people who wrote up the plot for the game at least had some decent working knowledge of the Christian faith, even if they weren't Christians themselves.

The Xenosaga/Xenogears trilogy was rather clever though - the main antagonist of the second game ('the Patriarch') was clearly a Catholic Pope analogy. ;)

So, wether you like the Christian/Catholic faiths or not, there was something here for you.

All told, Xenosaga/Xenogears was closer to Dan Brown's Angels and Demons, and the Divinci Code, then it was to conventional Christianity.

[Sanagi]

I wish some of you guys visisted the game board to throw some of this stuff out when somebody says how deep and thoughtful Xenogears was in it's use of crosses.
Oh, I don't even let myself get started on Xenogears anymore.

[AnimeAvatar]

Shiro Amakusa is the earliest Christian movements in Japan. Good old repressed farmers revolting against the Imperial samurai army of Japan. The Emperor's unreasonable order to 'stop this Christianity nonsense and give us all of your rice, or die" just didn't sit well with the farmers for some reason. Go figure. Of course they eventually lost the battle, but they put up an amazing fight... especially thanks to the guns from the dutch. Guns which the samurai soldiers didn't have. The army just kept Amakusa under siege until they starved everyone to death. It's really a spectacular story of faith and human willpower.

In fact, the whole Amakusa area is one of my favorite places in Japan. I've been there over seven times.


One thing I should point out is the Amakusa Shiro was actually a little boy, although quite effeminate. It is told that he could read the Greek and Latin Bible, given to him as a gift by the Dutch missionary monk Francis Xavier, by age 12 (although I'm not sure how true this is, but it adds to the kids legend). No doubt this child was influential in spreading Christianity into mainland Japan. He was the first Christian 'preacher' of the Gospels the country ever had, and his story is well respected to this day.

That sounds alot like something i found doing research for my paper... it was called the Shimibara Revolt/Uprising(might have misspelled it) That was a bunch of farmers as well...could it be related? Surprisingly, i didn't find a lot on Xavier...


It's good to know that the zombification of Japanese schoolchildren is being reduced. When i was there last, it was as if everyone were robots... kind of creapy. Good thing it wore off after the last bell ^_^

[The Xenos]

Ha. I remember writing about Francis Xavier and how he never got into Japan himself and died while waiting to get in.

Also, I am visting my friend in Japan. His college is Christian based. Their logo is a cross, a crown of thorns with three nails in it. He thought it would be rather shocking when he showed me it. I thought it was rather neat.

[The Real Nemo]

Ha. I remember writing about Francis Xavier and how he never got into Japan himself and died while waiting to get in.
IIRC he did go to Japan, it was China he never made it to.

[cow20xx]

Don't know if this manga/anime is mentioned or not, but Berserk is a serie that has a deep catholic theme to it.
It kinda takes place in dark-age europe, with the inquisition and witch craft and all. One thing that's beautiful about this serie is the gore and adult content, plus this serie shows the ugliness of religions and how it can be manipulated by evil and/or fanatics for pain and suffering.

[vazel]

Don't know if this manga/anime is mentioned or not, but Berserk is a serie that has a deep catholic theme to it.
It kinda takes place in dark-age europe, with the inquisition and witch craft and all. One thing that's beautiful about this serie is the gore and adult content, plus this serie shows the ugliness of religions and how it can be manipulated by evil and/or fanatics for pain and suffering.
uh... I really don't see any of that in Berserk. I don't remember religion being mentioned in the series? From what I remember it was about the quest for power(Griffith). Had the series continued past season one it looked like it would've then been about vengeance(Gats).

But then again after skimming through this thread some people seem to be reaching(Lain is a retelling of the messiah story? Honestly?)...

[AnimeAvatar]

I haven't seen Berserk so i can't say on that one, and like i said eirlier, Lain is hard for me to find which means i've seen very little of it. Wheather or not it is a modern-christ story is unclear to me at this moment...

[The Xenos]

The religious aspect doesn't show up until much later in the manga. It doesn't appear in the anime. Though you do see the bird symbol on graves instead of crosses in the anime. The manga goes into detail about the regilion in power of Berserk and it is centered in a place called The Vatican. Plus they have inquisitions and witch burning. (Wow. That whole thing with Farnse!) While it's not exactly Christianity, it's clearly based on Catholicism. I belive they even show an old Pope on his deathbed in chrage of the church.

Lain is pretty much like Matrix. I wouldn't be surprised if Matrix borrowed some ideas from it. They both have this whole digital Gnostic vibe to them. Remember, the Gnostic take on Christ is quite different from traditional Christianity.

[Nik Hasta]

uh... I really don't see any of that in Berserk. I don't remember religion being mentioned in the series? From what I remember it was about the quest for power(Griffith). Had the series continued past season one it looked like it would've then been about vengeance(Gats).


As Xenos says; it shows up in the manga rather than in the anime.

I haven't found much in the way of explicit teachings in anime/manga or anything; I mean Hellsing hardly counts as such does it?

[Michael P]

The thing about a lot of animé (and for that matter western fiction as well, although to a lesser degree) is that they tend to use a bunch of christian symbols (and especially certain movements like the gnostics, or the Knights Templar, or catholic imagery....) for "cool value", without always understanding (or caring) about the meaning and context of the symbols: It is exactly the same thing as with the borrowing of asian motifs in western culture in fact.

Yep. Lots of iconography, very little faith. Xenosaga falls into this, too; as much as it name-drops Christian figures, it doesn't have a whole lot to do with the tenets of Christianity. Theological name-dropping.

[The Xenos]

I've already posted about this in the Gundam 00 thread and the 'coolest anime names' thread, but this also deserves some notice in this topic.

Check out this name from the new Gundam series (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2007-06-14/gundam-00's-4-main-characters-4-gundam-units-revealed/2).

Allelujah Paptism.

"Allelujah Paptism (an apparent wordplay on baptism) is a seemingly calm, benign 19-year-old who grew up as an orphan in the Humanity Reform League, the league centering around China, Russia, and India, before joining Solestal Being."

-pause-

Wow. Watching Japan use English and Christian ideas and names is like a train wreck you can't look away from.

[AnimeAvatar]

.Lain is pretty much like Matrix. I wouldn't be surprised if Matrix borrowed some ideas from it. They both have this whole digital Gnostic vibe to them. Remember, the Gnostic take on Christ is quite different from traditional Christianity.

I've heard that. I've only been able to find the first few ep. ... i think it was called Navi ... but i did notice the digital Gnostic thing. Admittedly i haven't seen all of the Matrix yet, the Animatrix i watched like 7 times but anyways, i can tell they are simmilar.

Wow. Watching Japan use English and Christian ideas and names is like a train wreck you can't look away from.

That's sad, funny, and true. Oh so true...

[The Xenos]

The thing about a lot of animé (and for that matter western fiction as well, although to a lesser degree) is that they tend to use a bunch of christian symbols (and especially certain movements like the gnostics, or the Knights Templar, or catholic imagery....) for "cool value", without always understanding (or caring) about the meaning and context of the symbols

and for that matter western fiction as well

*cough* Da Vinci Code *cough*