Jump The Shark

[Matt_K]

An old tired game as far as TV shows are concerned but what of comics? At what point (if any) did Cerebus go that one inch too far up David Sim's own ass? Was it all over for FF as far as you were concerned when Kirby left or did the lustre fade some other time? Did Clark and Lois marrying kill things dead? Did Gwen Stacy's death in Ultimate Spider-Man signal that Bendis had finally put a foot wrong?
Several of the longrunning DC and Marvel series have done it several times (ie there was a shark jump then it gradually got decent again, then another shark jump and so on) but can you pinpoint the issues at which you went "That's it, no more Millie The Model/Tessie The Typist/ Giant Sized man Thing etc for me"?
I didn't read it at the time but I've been reading the Dark Horse reprints of the original Marvel Star Wars comic and I think the issue that killed the series more than any other has gotta be #89. While it would continue for a while more the script is an incoherent mess, so clunky and just horribly written that it defies belief that this has made it to the printed page. Inexplicably penned by the hitherto excellent Ann Nocenti, as I read this I said to myself "Well it was already degenerating into a plotless sitcom so I'd be getting less enthusiastic about handing over my 60 cents a month, but if I'd been a reader at the time, this sloppy insult would've got me to drop it." Things get better in the remaining issues but only mildly and Cynthia Martin's art (excellent artist, it was just wildly unsuited to Star Wars) seems to suggest that Marvel didn't know how to turn things back on, so for me #89 signals the demise of SW.
Your own opinions on shark jumpings in comics? And let's avoid the Clone Saga, we know that, it's boring.

[Cei-U!]

For me, Amazing Spider-Man first jumped the shark in the '68 Annual when Stan unwisely made Pete's parents SHIELD agents murdered by the '50s-era Red Skull imposter. Our hero was no longer ordinary pre-spider bite. It was the first time I realized that The Man could take a wrong step, a huge blow to my 10-year-old self.

I'm sure I'll think of more tomorrow.

Cei-U!
I summon my blankies!

[Jonathan Bogart]

Comic books, as a format, jumped the shark when they disappeared up their own collective ass around 1986 or so. At that point, it was longer possible for anyone to pick up any new comic and read it, understand it, and enjoy it without any knowledge of any other comic book ever. (Yes, "Archie" and many first issues of new series are exceptions. Help me generalize here, people!)

As a traditionalist (and someone who's more interested in particular cartoonists than in any character), I would say that most every classic Marvel comic jumped the shark after Kirby and Ditko left Marvel. In some cases, before.

Actually, the same holds true for the Schwartz-edited DC titles. When the old guys who'd been working in the industry since the 40s started getting replaced, the comics should have been retired, and the new blood let loose on their own ideas.

Come to think of it, this is pretty much my stance on any long-running property. Gasoline Alley should have gone with Frank King, Prince Valiant with Hal Foster, Thimble Theatre with E.C. Segar, Pogo with Walt Kelly, Asterix with Rene Goscinny, Terry & the Pirates with Milton Caniff, Superman with Siegel and Shuster....

Okay, maybe not that last one. The Weisinger era is pretty fun. But after that, eh.

Here's another, and one that I think is more applicable in the TV-show derived sense of the phrase:

The New Teen Titans jumped the shark at issue #51, simply by virtue of there being an issue #51, or anything else that came after.

Howard Chaykin jumped the shark when he stopped drawing anything that didn't feature women's breasts being squeezed too tightly by their upper garments.

Li'l Abner jumped the shark after Daisy and Li'l Abner got married.

Wally Wood jumped the shark with the T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents.

Neil Gaiman jumped the shark with Sandman. Before that, he was a promising young writer. After it, he was revealed as a mediocre fantasist.

[Matt_K]

I think Gaiman jumped the shark with book 6 of Sandman. I love the first five books but what follows is pretentious psuedo-goth isn't it all so terribly poetic self indulgence. There's no story anymore.
I agree with Cei U about Parker's parents being secret agents in Spidey Annual 5. Even reading that as a kid I thought it was unconvincing nonsense. And shouldn't Red Skull have become a big Spidey enemy after that? Or at least have PP mention Skull ever again?
DD jumped the shark with its second issue and I'm not being silly. Daredevil #1 is a great read with a fun, exciting, yet slow paced (in the good way) script that doesn't go too far in an effort to be the most head busting thing in the history of the universe as Lee often tried then. And Bill Everett's art rocks the party. But straight with #2 Everett's gone and we're privy to a story so assinine I can barely bother to write it out again, but suffice to say at one point DD, who is blind, makes a catapult out of a spare tire and engine block to destroy a steamroller that he doesn't have time to get out of the way of and that's bad enough without mentioning how slow those are. And there's a LOT more beside that.
I actually don't think Cerebus ever jumped the shark. I know a lot do which is why I brought it up, but I like it the whole way through, though some parts (ie Melmoth) less than others.
Warren Ellis jumped the shark with Book 3 of Transmetropolitan. What had been a witty and astonishingly imaginative vision of the future gradually becomes a joyless sadistic rant.

[Roquefort Raider]

The entire Marvel line lost interest for me when Jean Grey was brought back just so the lame X-Factor title could reunite the original X-Men.

Up til then, despite the usual willing suspension of disbelief required from readers, Marvel had sort of stuck to reality... one didn't have the feeling that any event whatsoever could be retroactively changed on the whim of a writer or editor.

In the case of Jean, readers had been made to vicariously experience the loss of a beloved person, and then a moving mourning period followed by new hope for the future (with Scott Summers growing out of his bereavement and eventually finding love again).

All that was scrapped with one ill-fated decision. What's more is that from that moment on, it felt as if every writer at Marvel had to write bigger and bigger "event" stories, with major characters being altered or dying left and right only to be resurrected later. The semblance of order had vanished, and I for one couldn't be bothered to read about characters to whom nothing of consequence could happen, since every tragedy could be undone with the snap of a finger. (I actually dropped all comic reading for about a year at the time, only brought back by Alan Moore's Swamp Thing and Watchmen).

I suppose that's when my innocence regarding comics was lost for good. The heroes I had cared for during my younger years were not people, not even imaginary people; they were mere trademarks, meant to sell lunchboxes and underwear. Their adventures weren't meant to be taken seriously, not even for fun. Besides they weren't that much fun anymore, what with the constant gnashing of teeth and the big shoulder pads.

[Roquefort Raider]

Crisis on Infinite Earths.

A bad solution to a non-existing problem.

Even as a kid I had no problem at all with the concept of multiple earths, and I thought the idea that the 40s heroes lived in a parallel universe was quite elegant. It was truly the best of both worlds, and there was always the possibility of creating even more parallel earths as the 60s heroes became anachronistic and needed top be made more modern.

Crisis might have worked nevertheless, but it ended up creating more problems than it solved. First, it washed away most of DC history, which is always a bit awkward when a large part of the readership actually does care about continuity. Second, it wasn't made clear what was eliminated and what wasn't. DC didn't re-boot its entire line from scratch; right after Crisis, we were introduced to characters who already had years of experience, but didn't know if their history was the same as what we had seen before. That was a bit unsettling, especially since the writers themselves clearly had no idea about what they were supposed to do! So for a little while things were very confused indeed (just think about the confusing Gordon family tree or the even worse post-crisis Hawkman convoluted history).

What is worse, Crisis introduced the concept of wholesale rebooting. So we got the Legion reboot, then the Zero Hour reboot, then some case-by-case reboots, then another total Legion re-boot, all mixed up with ridiculous Rube Goldberg-fixed continuity glitches. I mean, Supergirl's original story was a bit silly, but it was acceptable as a product of the 50s. Now what is she? A dimensionally-displaced artificial being twice imprinted on some earth girls or something? Eyuch. And when I think of the original answer to the question "Who is Donna Troy" and what was done to it in the post-crisis universe, I feel very down indeed.

I'd be very happy if the Beyonder crossed over to the DC universe and re-created the multiverse, where gross continuity flaws could be swiped under the Earth-34 carpet without resorting to Hypertimed cross-dimensional alien clones.

[Cei-U!]

I have no problem with the goal of reboots. A fresh start with a fresh writer and artist can keep a character responsive to cultural changes. But I don't see that we have to make an event out of it. Superman and Batman made the transition from Golden Age to Silver without they or we being aware of it. It just... happened. At the time the Michelinie/Layton/Romita Jr team took over Iron Man, the book was mostly retreads of earlier stories and overmining Marvel minutiae. They took all of two issues to intelligently and respectfully wrap up their predecessors' storylines then gave ol' Shellhead a new, well-balanced supporting cast, challenging new obstacles and an atmosphere of corporate corruption and political paranoia. They didn't erase the book's past. They just quit picking at it obsessively. That's how you do a reboot.

Cei-U!
I summon the credo!

[Roquefort Raider]

They didn't erase the book's past. They just quit picking at it obsessively. That's how you do a reboot.


Amen!


(I summon the ten characters limit)

[Rob Imes]

I agree that X-Men "jumped the shark" when Jean Grey's death was undone. For me personally, I dropped X-Men when Paul Smith left, with #175. (Of course, I've bought the title off and on since then. I currently have Uncanny on my pull list.) One could say also that X-Men jumped the shark when Storm got a mohawk (although I loved it).

For me, John Byrne's FF jumped the shark around the time of "The Trial of Reed Richards" (#261). But to make it more universal, I'd say that Byrne's FF jumped the shark when She-Hulk joined.

The original run of Avengers jumped the shark around the same time for me, when West Coast Avengers started up. Looking back, it's hard to believe that I deliberately didn't buy comics like "West Coast Avengers" or "Secret Wars" because I thought they were a scam to get more money out of me.

Or, you could say that Avengers jumped the shark with #300 when Reed, Sue, and Gilgamesh became members.

Captain America jumped the shark a couple times. I remember that I had just started buying Cap again when such concepts as "D-Man" were introduced. That got me to stop buying the comic pretty quickly.

I'd say New Teen Titans jumped the shark even before #50, when they started having all these guest artists because Perez couldn't keep up drawing two titles by that point. One could say that Dick Grayson becoming Nightwing is when the original New Teen Titans jumped the shark. That would coincide with the death of Terra and the introduction of Jericho.

Later on, the series jumped the shark again with "Titans Hunt," where Jericho was revealed to be the bad guy. Uh-huh...

[prince hal]

Crisis on Infinite Earths.

A bad solution to a non-existing problem...

I'd be very happy if the Beyonder crossed over to the DC universe and re-created the multiverse, where gross continuity flaws could be swiped under the Earth-34 carpet without resorting to Hypertimed cross-dimensional alien clones.

What he said!

[Lone Ranger]

Here is a weird coincidence – two of my all-time favourites jumped the shark (at least for me) with the same issue number. Much of this probably has to do with my age at the time, but I truly think that a bit of shark jumping made me lose interest:

Avengers #238

For some reason, by the time I was 11 years old, I was not reading as many comic books (probably trying to be cool), but I was still reading the Avengers on a regular basis. I really enjoyed many of the stories in the 220s and 230s (especially the Hank Pym/Egghead saga and the Spider-Man two-parter), but this series really lost me when the Unlimited Vision storyline started. I cannot explain why, but I always liked the Vision and this arc really ruined the character for me. The whole ‘One with the Mansion’ bit was just too much. By issue #245, I was gone.

Amazing Spider-Man #238

Ok, so I am 10 years old, raised on heavy doses of Spider-Man and have really been enjoying most of the issues in 1981 and 1982. I really liked the Black Cat and Madame Web storylines and issue #232 with the Tarantula remains one of my favourites. When Hobgoblin was introduce, I was just never intrigued – I get I had a sense of the character recycling that would go on to haunt Marvel. That being said, there was still the occasional good issue (I dig #242 with the Mad Thinker), but by the time the Black Costume showed up – I was no longer a card carrying Spider-Fan.

More later.

[Cei-U!]

Fantastic Four jumped the shark in issue 50, the last third of the original Galactus Trilogy. The Big G is beat with a doohickey from his own ship (planet?) obtained courtesy of an oath-breaking Uatu. Razorback could've beat him with that kind of help. The FF were reduced to bystanders in their own book or, at best, pawns of a higher power. A lot of great stories came afterward but that one left a bad taste in my mouth that took a long time to go away.

Cei-U!
I summon the cringe!

[InfoBroker]

It was nearly three years between the time I found FF#49 in a second hand book store in late 1966, and when I ordered two copies of FF#50 from Passaic Books in the spring of 1969.

So I was looking at the two issues which much different personal perspectives. Even taking that into account, After all the wonderful buildup in issue 49, I found issue 50's Galactus plot a let down. The Ultimate Nulifyer made for an interesting device, and a fun trip for Johnny to travel to get it, but it sure flattened out the great battle that I thought was going to occur between Galactus and his herald.

I did like the introduction of Wyatt Wingfoot, and the additional dimension of Johnny Storm's personality being explored.

For me, FF49 is the superior story of the trilogy, and one of the best single issue Fantastic Four comics ever.

-jb the ib :cool:

[Lone Ranger]

Green Arrow #81

This was one of the few series I never, ever missed an issue during my last years of high school and my early university days when money was tight. I just loved the development of the character and the various adventures Ollie had courtesy of Mike Grell. Sure, it was a bit preachy at time, but hell – I was a young student so that was fine by me. I believe that this issue was the first non-Grell issue and the series jumped the shark and headed straight for the toilet. It saddens me to admit this declingt, because Jim Aparo also took over the art and I don’t like to ever cast him in a negative light. The thing is, the stories just got stupid – Ollie went from small battles to huge conspiracies. I am never in favour of killing off a character (and issue #101 still irks me today), but I will admit that the title rebounded once Connor Hawke took on the GA role (I know that this may not be a popular opinion, but I really think it’s true).

[Slam_Bradley]

Green Arrow #81



I definitely agree with you, Scott. There are some books that just can't make it past certain creators leaving. GA was one. I'll raise another by Mike Grell;

Warlord #50

Warlord was almost unique at the time it was published. It was never a sword & sorcery book, but was the last vestige of the Burroughs type science fantasy in comics. Unfortunately the book lost a lot after Mike Grell left the penciling after issue #50. Yeah, he wrote it until issue #71, but it wasn't the same. And after Grell left the writing, nobody else could match the magic that he'd produced. When Power Girl was forced in to the book, I gave up in disgust.

[Lone Ranger]

Nightcrawler jumped the shark with #2.



http://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/3035/200/3035_2_002.jpg


Sorry, couldn't resist.

.

[InfoBroker]

Tarzan did it with issue #243 - which ironically I was staring at last night, and I wasn't as witty as Kimosabe and do my own jumping.

http://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/2035/200/2035_2_243.jpg


- jb the "one step behind the Masked-man" ib :cool:

[InfoBroker]

and of course Jack being ever-original, has the Shark doing the jumping...

http://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/2028/200/2028_2_23.jpg

- jb the ib :cool:

[InfoBroker]

Gasoline Alley should have gone with Frank King, Prince Valiant with Hal Foster, Thimble Theatre with E.C. Segar, Pogo with Walt Kelly, Asterix with Rene Goscinny

While I tend to agree, the others lost their lifeblood with the loss of the creators, I couldn't disagree with you more on Gasoline Alley. Those that picked up the reigns of those classic characters stayed true to the inner core and produced some very classic material. I was especially fond of Dick Moores work.

His peers must have liked it too. They awarded him a Rubens in 1974, and voted it the best comic strip three times in the 80s.

Wish I had access to more King work though.

-jb the ib :cool:

[tricksterpup]

and of course Jack being ever-original, has the Shark doing the jumping...

http://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/2028/200/2028_2_23.jpg

- jb the ib :cool:
HAHA.. that is the greatest.. gotta love JACK..

[Shellhead]

As one of the original Kamandi fans, I have to point out that was a killer whale, not a shark.

[Bill Angus]

I definitely agree with you, Scott. There are some books that just can't make it past certain creators leaving. GA was one. I'll raise another by Mike Grell;

Warlord #50

Warlord was almost unique at the time it was published. It was never a sword & sorcery book, but was the last vestige of the Burroughs type science fantasy in comics. Unfortunately the book lost a lot after Mike Grell left the penciling after issue #50. Yeah, he wrote it until issue #71, but it wasn't the same. And after Grell left the writing, nobody else could match the magic that he'd produced. When Power Girl was forced in to the book, I gave up in disgust.

Actually, I'm pretty sure that while the credits say Grell wrote the book until #71, it was his then-wife (Sharon?) who actually wrote the post-50 issues.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Actually, I'm pretty sure that while the credits say Grell wrote the book until #71, it was his then-wife (Sharon?) who actually wrote the post-50 issues.


Given as bad as the book became after #50, if someone told me Grell's pets were writing it, I'd believe it.

[T GUy]

I summon Cei-U!

Fantastic Four jumped the shark in issue 50, the last third of the original Galactus Trilogy. The Big G is beat with a doohickey from his own ship (planet?) obtained courtesy of an oath-breaking Uatu. Razorback could've beat him with that kind of help. The FF were reduced to bystanders in their own book or, at best, pawns of a higher power. A lot of great stories came afterward but that one left a bad taste in my mouth that took a long time to go away.
I summon the infobroker!

I found issue 50's Galactus plot a let down. The Ultimate Nulifyer made for an interesting device, and a fun trip for Johnny to travel to get it, but it sure flattened out the great battle that I thought was going to occur between Galactus and his herald.

Kirby and Lee summoned a deus ex machina. Someone once observed that after Galactus appeared, the FF should have retired, or Marvel should have retired them or something. I am with you on this one.

Mind you, I would miss those Inhumans issues. And the 'Him' two-parter. And even the Star Trek homage tetralogy. In fact, I'm even torn about the Dr Doom/Surfer and Dr. Doom/Prisoner stories...

[T GUy]

I summon myself!

I'm even torn about the Dr Doom/Surfer and Dr. Doom/Prisoner stories...
That needs explaining, I think. These are both great stories, but I respect Jack's original intentions for the Surfer (I think jack would rather have left him as a one-off character - I'm willing to take corrections on this one) and would rather he disappeared after No. 50. As for Dr. Doom, I am almost completely persuaded by a friend's view that Doom's ultimate defeat was in the issue (No. 43, I think) where he's beaten by Ben. If the man who considers himself the world's greatest intellectual is defeated by someone he considers a mere oaf from the slums of Brooklyn, that ultimate humiliation should spell his retirement.

[Reptisaurus!]

Fantastic Four jumped the shark in issue 50, the last third of the original Galactus Trilogy. The Big G is beat with a doohickey from his own ship (planet?) obtained courtesy of an oath-breaking Uatu. Razorback could've beat him with that kind of help. The FF were reduced to bystanders in their own book or, at best, pawns of a higher power. A lot of great stories came afterward but that one left a bad taste in my mouth that took a long time to go away.

Cei-U!
I summon the cringe!

Yeah, crappy, crappy ending... But what a set-up!

Still it was pretty obvious that Lee 'n Kirby had written themselves into a corner and couldn't think of any way 'round it.

[MWGallaher]

I don't think there's ever been shark-jumping like Phantom Stranger #27. Bye-bye, Len Wein, Jim Aparo, Mike Kaluta. Editor Joe Orlando was practically apologetic about replacement writer Arnold Drake--a fine talent in general--being so unfamiliar with the character that he needed a few issues to figure out what kind of stories to write. Replacement artist Gerry Talaoc--another fine talent in general--was unquestionably wrong for the job. On the backup, Steve Skeates and Bernard Bailey--fine talents in general--truly floundered trying to make the Spawn of Frankenstein work.

Soon Drake resorted to the same approach used a few years earlier, when The Spectre jumped the shark (issue 8, I believe)...he started writing "House of Mystery" stories and used the Stranger as little more than a host character. If we wanted House of Mystery, it was there on the stands for us to buy; the Stranger was something bigger, and deserved better.

[spoon_jenkins]

For me personally, I dropped X-Men when Paul Smith left, with #175.
Well, Scott Summers literally jumped the shark in #176 (seen below), so you have good timing. (Sorry, I don't now how to attach except in itsy-bitsy size.)

[Scott Shaw!]

If any long-running mainstream comic ever specifically "jumped the shark" with a particular issue, it HAS to be THIS one:

http://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/97/400/97_4_0000456.jpg

Aloha,

Scott!

[TheHistorian]

At what point (if any) did Cerebus go that one inch too far up David Sim's own ass?

I had to think about this one for a minute. The first chink in the armor is issue 139, the beginning in Melmoth. But in retrospect, there actually is a point, and it's not a shark-jumper. The obvious choice (i.e. the one where Dave pissed everyone off) would be 186. I'm not going into the details - Google it if you don't know.

But I think in the end, I'd have to choose issue 200. Dave breaks the fourth wall, and it's downhill from there. Total number of truly enjoyable and readable issues in the last hundred... probably less than five.

[Matt_K]

FF #50 was a let-down for the oft-cited "What on earth IS the ultimate nullifier and how come the FF don't do anything to win their supposed greatest battle?" reason but I wouldn't call it a shark-jump. My take is that shark-jumping isn't a one off dodgy issue (and FF #50 was only dodgy from a writing perspective, nothing wrong with the art) it's a point where the series became bad for a while to come.
I already mentioned that Daredevil jumped the shark with #2 but DD really is quite special because it repeatedly jumped the shark without having recovered from the previous jump. DD faces the Matador? Jump. DD faces apeman, catman, birdman and frogman under the control of the Organiser? Jump. DD fights a mechanical owl on top of an exploding volcano? Jump. The introduction of Mike Murdoch? Jump. DD faces Mr "Tea-Cosy Face" Masked Marauder and Stiltman at the same time? "Lo The Lord Of The Leopards"? Jump. "The Ghost Of El Condor Rides Again?" Jump. DD goes cosmic and fights aliens from outer space? Jump. And so on. I still wonder that it didn't get canceled before the CPR Miller gave it. Though it would go back to its old shark jumping habits (armour costume, demon possession etc) after Miller and Nocenti were gone.
Oh and as I'm covering the history of Doctor Strange in my summarise the MU at the moment (up to Strange Tales #129, check it out: http://www.comicboards.com/defenders/view.php?trd=050316122713 ) I'd say his shark jumping came when he started wearing a superhero costume. It was a cool costume admittedly, but it wasn't necessary and it didn't fit the character and his first series got canceled soon after.

[InfoBroker]

Kirby and Lee summoned a deus ex machina. Someone once observed that after Galactus appeared, the FF should have retired, or Marvel should have retired them or something. I am with you on this one.

er... I need to clarify my position on FF here. While I feel issue 50 was a let down issue, it is not my idea of a shark jumper. I still rate it a very good comic, and there are dozens of issues following this that are outstanding.

FF along with most of the other mainstream Marvel super-hero had editorial restrictions in late 1969 early 1970 lead it to do it's Shark Jumping.

FF #94, while still a very entertaining issue is my marker.

- jb the ib :cool:

[Cei-U!]

The Silver Age Green Lantern series definitely jumped the shark when Hal Jordan quit Ferris Aircraft and became a nomadic whiner incapable of holding a job. It was one of DC's first attempts at aping the Marvel "heroes with problems" approach. Unfortunately, it was not the last.

To go back to the Galactus thing, I consider that storyline a jumped shark because its success sent the Marvel characters on a "kozmik" path that, in my opinion, robbed them of much of their credibility and humanity.

Cei-U!
I summon the wrong turn!

[Drew Geraci]

:D I was ten years old when Nova first hit the stands July of 1976, and MAN! I was blown away! Granted, the stories don't hold up as well in 2005, but for kid with bad grades and low self-esteem (like Nova's Rich Rider), it was pure male power fantasy custom made for me.

:( However, it jumped the shark immediately when Sal Buscema and Frank Giacoia were replaced with Carmine Infantino. His art was ugly to me, and characters seemed to stumble into the panels instead of leap. Tom Palmer dressed it up nicely, but I actually dropped it a few issues before it was cancelled with #25. Same with Ms. Marvel.

:cool: The only, IMHO, sucessful Marvel/Infantino art was Klaus Janson on Daredevil #149, 150 & 152. Since Janson also did colors, he added mood to the pencils.
Actually, Rubenstien did a great ink job over Infantino in Cap #245. Marvel's inkers really made an impression on me as a wee lad.

:D As years pass, I've grown to appreciate Infantino's idiosyncratic style, much like Frank Robbins.
www.drewgeraci.com

[Joe S. Walker]

Re the Lee/Kirby FF run, there's an unmistakeable point at which it passed its best - the Him storyline in #66-67. Supposedly that story was drastically altered from what Kirby had originally intended, and whether or not that was the immediate cause, afterwards he gave up introducing new concepts and characters in the book. The remaining stories in the run almost all use characters that had appeared before: the Mad Thinker, Dr Doom, the Skrulls, Galactus, the Wizard, not to mention swiping from The Prisoner and Star Trek. But they're mostly still enjoyable (the Mole Man two-parter with the weird house and the FF blinded is a favourite of mine). The real drop-off came at the end, with that string of mostly tired and perfunctory one-issue stories - though the first of them, #94, introduced the only really new character since #67 in Agatha Harkness.

[InfoBroker]

Hey Joe!

I've seen your appends in a few other spots, but since we are on common turf, here's my chance to welcome you aboard.

I'm pretty much on the same platform as you in relationship to the FF. However I would be using the word influenced instead of swipe for the Prisoner<->Latveria and the Start Trek/Piece of the Action<- >Skrulls thematic similarities.

And while I mark Fantastic Four #94 as the Shark moment for the FF, it remains a great story overall and Agatha was a charmingly mysterious Jack Kirby character. But this issue has the new editorial policies of Marvel infused upon. Jack could overcome them and still work with Stan to tell a nice tale. But the comic lost the depth of character continuity starting at this point.

Here's some of my other Shark markers for the Silver-Age Marvel Titles.

Spider-man #87

...and it's absolutely ridiculous cover. There were previous issues that leaned heavily in the directions that this comic contained. In particular 58,60,61 - MJ the Gwen and Captain Stacy being the victims that Spidey must rescue. The vestiges of the Spider-man myhtos, and it fantastic supporting cast would still produce some good stories in future issues, most especially death issues, 92(Captain Stacy) and 121-122(Gwen). But this is was the death throw of Spider-man's prime moments.

Here is my definitive list of Silver-age Spider-man comics: 1-4,7-13,15-56,63,64,66,67,70-76,77,78 and 82. Annual #1-3.

Annual #1 sneaks in mainly because of the great artwork and all the behind-the-scenes information. The story... <*rotates left hand up and down - pivoting on wrist*>

X-men

From a silver-age standpoint, the X-men were cancelled before the editorial Shark of 1970 took hold. So I hung onto the entire run, 1-66. It was obvious that from issue 39-48, Marvel was reaching desperately for something to do with this band of teen-age mutants. But because of the origin back-up tales in those issues, I kept them all. I never did like the individual costumes all that much. I much prefer the notion of them having common team icons.

Thor

Issue #169 was the wrap-up issue on the background and origin of Galactus. Beautifully inked by George Klein. Even though Kirby was still doing the artwork after this issue, it was clear that his heart wasn't in it. The Editorial Shark, limited the tales following #169 to single issues, heavily toned down subplots, allow only lightweight continuity. Also, to me, and I'm only speculating based on my feelings, the overall essence of the material seemd derived almost exclusively from Stan here, not much Jack. It might have been part of Jack's frustrations at the time, it might have been Stan wanting to take what he felt were better commercial directions at the time, or even Jack insisting that someone else do the real writing and plotting since he was not being given proper credit, fair compensation, better creative control and all the other things that were frustrating him about Marvel at the time. So 169 would have been Jack's last definitive Thor story. After that, the Sharks have smelled blood and are coming...

http://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/1749/200/1749_2_169.jpg

But I never found any issues of Thor or FF, or anything that Jack did prior this funk period as being "Shark" bait. Some stories were better than others. Some had themes and characters that I liked and satisfied my personal tastes. But there were no major let downs, no issues that missed the marked. I never felt betrayed reading a Jack Kirby comic. Not even by these editorial challenged issues. Disappointed yes, but not betrayed.

By comparison, Spider-man #87 was betrayal.

Captain America.

Initially I put the marker at the last issue of Captain America by Jim Steranko (#113). At the time I wasn't to know that the weekend special, fill-in issue that Jack Kirby did for #112 would be his last silver-age Captain America material. But even on a rush schedule, it was a masterpiece. One of my favorites. These Steranko/Lee issues are masterpieces as well. Some of the best Captain America tales ever told.

Yet I still like the Gene Colan, John Buscema, John Romita issues that followed Jim's classic arc. The art was still excellent, even if the stories and plots were predictable and somewhat lame compared to the wonderful material that had gone before.

http://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/1860/200/1860_2_113.jpg

So, for me, the hardcore Captain America's silver age ending is #113. I kept the issues up to #120 mainly for sentimental reasons.

Hulk

...like Cap has a clear marker, and a hang on point. #112 was the last issue that I thought had high class, even though I still enjoyed the Leader episodes that followed. But I kept Hulk all the way up to #119. #118 because of the guest star appearance of Subby, and #119 because of the fantastic cover by Marie Severin.

Dr. Strange

Dr. Strange also benefited from being discontinued before the editorial sharks took over. Besides, Gene Colan's stunning artwork made it easy to hang onto the entire silver-age run here. The silly costume with the mask was akward, but the content of those issues held up just as well as the issue before that. No Sharks here.

Iron-man

This title held together better than the mega-stars like Thor, FF and Spidey. Maybe because I ddin't expect as much from it. But what also helped the quality of this title was Archie Goodwin's quality writing, and I think George Tuska was doing some of his best super-hero based artwork ever! So I kept all the Iron-mans I purchased before taking my break from comics. Issues 1-22.

Sub-Mariner

Similar criteria would be true for Subby, even though that Triton cover on issue #18 was really corny and contrived. The Dr. Doom cover on issue #20 was more than excellent enough to cancel it out. Well almost...

http://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/1874/200/1874_2_18.jpg

It should also be noted that Roy Thomas was telling some wonderful tales here, even within the tightened reigns of reduced continuity and single issue plots. Then you add some excellent covers by Marie Severin to the mix (well not including 18), and I decided to keep Subby 1-20 intact.

Captain Marvel

I was never sure how to handle this comic from a keeper/discard standpoint. It has some of the best covers, a handful of good stories, a lot of potential concepts, some of which were the ground work for important future galaxy bound tales. But there are also a handful of issues that represent not what you who call stellar examples of Marvel silver-age material. It bounced around from writer to writer, and various conceptual layers. Stan said in his initial sales pitches that it was the Star Trek television series that influenced this title. But Stan got caught in that need of his to put cosmic characters on earth. Happened with the Surfer, he kept pushing Thor back to Midgard. I kept the entire run of our man from Kree. Mainly because of the Gil Kane/Roy Thomas revamp that started with 17. It augmented the good revamp that Archie Goodwin did in issue #16, which cleaned up the very messy revamp that Arnold Drake did prior to that. And despite such a messy beginning, Captain Marvel still managed to be a major player in Marvel's continuity.

There are still a handful of Marvel Silver-ager to Shark-mark. I'm sure my goal to finish my taxes this weekend will provide me with an opportunity to get to them.

<more to come later>

-jb the procrastinating ib :cool:

[Joe S. Walker]

Hi, InfoBroker. Apparently in his final issues before leaving in 1970, Kirby did indeed ask Stan to come up with plots for him. I've heard that one story done that way was the original Nega-Man FF issue: when the pencilled pages came in Stan found them unintelligible, and Kirby said he'd just drawn what Stan said.

[Chad Anderson]

While I tend to agree, the others lost their lifeblood with the loss of the creators, I couldn't disagree with you more on Gasoline Alley. Those that picked up the reigns of those classic characters stayed true to the inner core and produced some very classic material. I was especially fond of Dick Moores work.

His peers must have liked it too. They awarded him a Rubens in 1974, and voted it the best comic strip three times in the 80s.

Wish I had access to more King work though.

-jb the ib :cool:

You're in luck: Drawn and Quarterly is reprinting King's work, in a multivolume series to be edited and designed by Chris Ware. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1896597645/102-9336073-3259356

[InfoBroker]

You're in luck: Drawn and Quarterly is reprinting King's work, in a multivolume series to be edited and designed by Chris Ware. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1896597645/102-9336073-3259356

WOW! Thanks for the pointer Chad. What a spectacular book. Somebody up there likes me or something.

I'll be sending Chris Ware a note of review and appreciation. Hardcover, 300+ pages, for a measly $18 bucks or so. WOW! again...



- jb the "remembering the grand days of the getting the Menomonee Falls Guardian and Gazette on a weekly basis"ib

[Spike-X]

I had to think about this one for a minute. The first chink in the armor is issue 139, the beginning in Melmoth. But in retrospect, there actually is a point, and it's not a shark-jumper. The obvious choice (i.e. the one where Dave pissed everyone off) would be 186. I'm not going into the details - Google it if you don't know.

But I think in the end, I'd have to choose issue 200. Dave breaks the fourth wall, and it's downhill from there. Total number of truly enjoyable and readable issues in the last hundred... probably less than five.
I'd probably have to agree here. He was circling the ramp with Melmoth (which turned out to be a precursor to Dave's "What I Reckon About Famous Dead Writers" period), but the shark was well and truly jumped once Cerebus ended up on Pluto. It seems that Dave didn't really know what to do with our boy after that, but as he'd said he was going to take it to 300 issues, he had to keep going.

I kept buying it for a while, wondering when/if something was going to happen, but I completely lost interest once Cerebus and Jaka ended up on that boat with the F. Scott Fitzgerald character.

[TheHistorian]

I kept buying it for a while, wondering when/if something was going to happen

Nope, it didn't.

[B Smith]

I'd disagree with those citing Fantastic Four #50 as a let-down. I liked it for the fact that it showed for the first time that there were some situations that really had the FF way out of their depth. The fact that they seemed to be bit players in their own title indicated that the scale of the other players in the drama were well beyond their understanding, which could only really increase the "cosmic" feeling of it all.

Infrobroker's list is bit depressing, as all his "jump the shark" nominations are about five issues before I started reading those titles :-)

[Nate C.]

Lone Ranger made me sad with the 238. For me, that jumped into a three year plus arc of Goblins, intigue and a whole lot of fun that then morphed into McFarlane, Larsen, Bagley and then finally crap around issue 360ish.

I would say Spidey jumped the shark either with:
1. The marriage to MJ (a lot of people's opinion, not mine)
2. The Clone Saga (my own opinion, and still a lot of people's_
3. The Chrome covers. (I know it's marketing, not storytelling, but it was indicative of the strories afterall)

[InfoBroker]

Infrobroker's list is bit depressing, as all his "jump the shark" nominations are about five issues before I started reading those titles :-)

I think a strong case can be made that a lot of good comics were still being produced in 1970 to early 1971, the time frame when I took my first serious sabatical from comic books, especailly mainstream comics, especially Marvel Comics. I will be the first to admit that I was also judging comics and rejecting a lot of it at that time because of where I was mentally at age 16 versus 12-15.
By the same token, I'm not sure how I would be reacting to comics if I "discovered" them for the first time in 1970 and I was 12 then. Hard to say. At 12 I found Batman and Superman to be dorky. I don't think I would find the main material at Marvel circa 1970 any less dorky, perhaps in some way even more so.

It's interesting to note, that while I was shunning the Marvel big players and had cast them aside first, I was still monitoring and buying other material. Sampling it for what it could offer. That would include ironically enough the revamped Batman, along with the early Witching Hour comics, and a handful of other projects. My last issues of the remaining comics I was buying was Green Lantern was #77 (the second GL/GA revamp), Amazing Adventures #2, Astonishing Tales 1, Fantastic Four #102, Witching Hour #6.

I don't know how things would have played out if Conan #1 had come out six months earlier, or if Jack's first DC work had premeired before May/June of 1970. But unfortunatly, they didn't. So comics and I went our seperate ways for awhile.

I would visit the racks on ocassions over the coming months, my comic buddy and good friend would bring comics with him on his weekend visits. I would glance and reject them mostly, flipping occassionally, but never having the desire to read a complete comic. But he stopped buying comics in the Fall of 1970 and he never came back to them.

He got me hooked on Pogo in this timeframe though, and that was a good thing.

I was also still intermitantly receiving some fanzines that I had subscriptions to (Comic Crusader, Guardian, Main Collector's Review, Graphic Story Magazine, Witzend, the Collector, Rocket Blast and a few others). I was on lists because of this and it was a free sampler newszine call Graphic Story World that was the catalyst that prompted me to head to a comic rack for the first time in over six months. It talked about Jack's new work at DC, in particularly a trilogy of comics that sounded very interesting.

So in April of 1971, I found and grabbed Mister Miracle #3. I had hoped to find copies of the other Kirby books, but to no avail. I did spy Conan #9 and decided to grab it as well.

There was material in both comics that brought back all the old feelings of Marvel at its best, augmented with the freshness that I hadn't felt since my earliest of months reading Jack Kirby's Thor and Fantastic Four comics.

This sequence in particular with the new characters, the panel-to-panel progression, and that special Kirby dynamics was pure magic.

http://webpages.charter.net/astrozoid/boomtube1.jpg

Click to see the next two pages of Mister Miracle #3 (http://webpages.charter.net/astrozoid/boomtube23.jpg)

I also thought it was very cool that my first introduction to the Fourth World was a BOOM Tube. How lucky could a fella get?

That was the first step, and over the coming months the volume of titles increased until by the Fall of 1971, I was back to buying everything that my allowance would allow (and then some). But the shark points of Marvel still held. While I was buying Spidey, FF and the bulk of the Marvel line,which contained a lot of good material, it just didn't have the solidity of what had been produced from late 1964 until the summer of 1969. The stuff had sunsetted for me.

In this time frame though, there were other venues and alternatives, some stunning and wonderful material. I talked about some of it recently on another thread. It was Conan, Korak, Swamp Thing, and especially the New Gods material that fascinated me now. I also enjoyed a great deal of Roy Thomas' material. Besides Conan, the Kree-Skrull War was waging in Avengers, and there was his team-ups with Gil Kane, and his push for bringing the roots of 1930s pulp magaznie influences back to mainstream comics.

A major infusion of new fresh talent was breaking into comics for the first time since the crash of the 1950s. Wrightson, Kaluta, Ploog were my favorites, along with Neal Adams and Barry Smith who had squeezed in earlier. My all-time favorite was still Jack though. No one came close to telling the tales he told, or creating characters so fully and fantastically realized as he did.

It was a great time for comics, different from the silver-age that had past and was over. There was so much fresh air coming into comics at this time. It was nice to breath in the aromas of four color newsprint adventures once more.

- jb the always optimistic ib :cool:

[fumetti]

X-MEN= Issue #201 where the non-powered Storm defeated Cyclops and his eyebeams in the Danger Room for "leadership of the clan" (or whatever). About the stupidest story I'd ever read. What Cyke can see, he can hit. And Storm sure as heck wasn't faster than Superman. Dumb, dumb, dumb.

BATMAN= The post-Crisis version of Jason Todd. The most unlikable sidekick ever. It was bad enough DC created the nicer Todd as a Grayson clone. But to make him a street thug and jerk just made the Bat-books no fun to read.

DOCTOR DOOM = With Dazzler #3-4 (I think), Doom had become a big joke. It seemed that Marvel decided kicking Doom's ass would be the rite of passage for any and every character that came along. (In Doom's defense, however, Dazzler also took on Galactus and Terrax--and won.) Doom's character was not redeemed until the Emperor Doom GN.

SUPERMAN= The death of the post-Crisis Superman was as dumb as the aforementioned X-book. Why Superman didn't grab onto Doomsday and fly him or fling him away from the city made no freakin' sense to me. If you can't out-slug a foe, you out think it. The new Superman didn't have the sense God gave a goose. The old Bates/Swan Superman would have taken down Doomsday in 3 pages.

HAWKMAN= Hawkworld (reg series) #1. In retrospect, the Hawkworld LS was a great Elseworlds story. Turning that into the official Hawkman screwed that character up beyond repair.

GREEN LANTERN= Do I need to elaborate? I'm just glad DC has finally fixed this atrocity.

ATOM= The early 1980s mini series Sword of the Atom. It wasn't a bad story, but it showed DC had no idea what to do with this character. And they still don't.

ULTIMATES= Bendis making Pym a wife-beater is inexcusable and indefensible. Not to mention a cheap way to add "modern drama." I still read the Ultimates, but just for Thor and Iron Man.

WOLVERINE= The moment he spoke Japanese. It began a long tradition of reinventing the character that has made Logan (I refuse to use that idiotic name introduced in "Origin") a jumbled mess.

MOON KNIGHT= The point where Marvel tried to make him a mainstream superhero. What a waste of a character. Moench and Seinkiewicz had given him a singular vision unlike most anything else at the time.

FANTASTIC FOUR = When Marvel took Reed Richards out of the lineup (some point after #300). Dumb. You can replace the rest for a time, but Richards IS the FF. Without Reed, the rest might as well go join the Defenders. All the techno-gadgetry comes to a halt.

THOR= The new series #1. If double-timing as a surgeon was "lame" (pardon the pun), then double-timing as a paramedic or nurse or whatever is downright paraplegic. I hated that idea so bad I dropped the new Thor title with the second issue. Simonson did the character a favor by dumping Donald Blake, and here we got something even worse. Ugh.

CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS= As someone else said... a terrible solution for a non-problem. Oh how I yearn for those simpler days...

ALEX ROSS= When he started making so much money for posters, covers, and other licensing projects, he stopped making comics. And that's a darn shame.

[shamus]

My interest in Marvel comics collapsed around 1983 when I was 17. When spider-man got the black costume and the She-Hulk joined the FF the fun was over. I bought all the Secret Wars issues and realized right then that I wasn't enjoying reading these things anymore. All the X-men spin offs and mini-series knocked out another pillar that caused the whole House of Ideas to come tumbling down for me. Bringing back Jean Grey was also a bad idea since it betrayed the heartfelt sentiments at her death that I felt when I read those classic Byrne /Claremont comics.

I haven't regularly followed a Marvel series since. Was it that I just grew out of comic books or did they truly start to go bad around that time? I don't know. There have always been a lot of junk amidst the gems. It was probably a bit of both because from what I can tell the stage for the excesses and mistakes of the 90s were being set at this time.

[Mike Kuypers]

My interest in Marvel comics collapsed around 1983 when I was 17. When spider-man got the black costume and the She-Hulk joined the FF the fun was over. I bought all the Secret Wars issues and realized right then that I wasn't enjoying reading these things anymore. All the X-men spin offs and mini-series knocked out another pillar that caused the whole House of Ideas to come tumbling down for me. Bringing back Jean Grey was also a bad idea since it betrayed the heartfelt sentiments at her death that I felt when I read those classic Byrne /Claremont comics.

I haven't regularly followed a Marvel series since. Was it that I just grew out of comic books or did they truly start to go bad around that time? I don't know. There have always been a lot of junk amidst the gems. It was probably a bit of both because from what I can tell the stage for the excesses and mistakes of the 90s were being set at this time.
I gave up on Marvel, too, though it took me a few more years than you to throw in the towel. I'm curious, though; did you just give up Marvel, or comics in general? I continued (and continue) to buy DC and some other brands.

[Sir Tim Drake]

Welcome to CBR, shamus.

[Simon Garth]

For me, Amazing Spider-Man first jumped the shark in the '68 Annual when Stan unwisely made Pete's parents SHIELD agents murdered by the '50s-era Red Skull imposter. Our hero was no longer ordinary pre-spider bite. It was the first time I realized that The Man could take a wrong step, a huge blow to my 10-year-old self.

I'm sure I'll think of more tomorrow.

Cei-U!
I summon my blankies!

What???:eek: Wow, that one totally slipped by me - never even heard of it. Though I agree, it's a damn stupid idea

[Simon Garth]

Avengers #238

For some reason, by the time I was 11 years old, I was not reading as many comic books (probably trying to be cool), but I was still reading the Avengers on a regular basis. I really enjoyed many of the stories in the 220s and 230s (especially the Hank Pym/Egghead saga and the Spider-Man two-parter), but this series really lost me when the Unlimited Vision storyline started. I cannot explain why, but I always liked the Vision and this arc really ruined the character for me. The whole ‘One with the Mansion’ bit was just too much. By issue #245, I was gone.


That's about the same time for me as well - Avengers had been probably longest-held addiction, but I gave it up then and didn't come back until the current New Avengers run - that Roger Stern run was absolutely horrible.

[Simon Garth]

I agree that X-Men "jumped the shark" when Jean Grey's death was undone. For me personally, I dropped X-Men when Paul Smith left, with #175. (Of course, I've bought the title off and on since then. I currently have Uncanny on my pull list.) One could say also that X-Men jumped the shark when Storm got a mohawk (although I loved it).

About the same time for me too - can't remember who the next artist was, but it was a huge disappointment after Smith, and the stories really sucked too - I gave it to #200 and quit there, but the last year or two was more habit than enjoyment

For me, John Byrne's FF jumped the shark around the time of "The Trial of Reed Richards" (#261). But to make it more universal, I'd say that Byrne's FF jumped the shark when She-Hulk joined.

I'd put it a little later than that, but the Sue/Hate Monger stuff, and then the Nick Fury time-travel story were the straws on the camel's back for me. I had hated and endured the interminable Negative Zone sequence, but I'd had enough by the end of this.

[benday-dot]

Don't throw at me your fetid fruit, but it was within Frank Miller's first Dark Knight run (first printing in 1989) that I bailed on comics. Yes I never made it into the grim 90's. I first loved FM's Daredevil, stuck with the man into Ronin, but it all just started to fall apart for me with Batman. Yeah, he does a fine a job, but I just halfway yawned, and halfway frowned at how depressing my four colour world had become. I need my comics with a vintage slice of fromage.

[overcomebyfumes]

I had to think about this one for a minute. The first chink in the armor is issue 139, the beginning in Melmoth. But in retrospect, there actually is a point, and it's not a shark-jumper. The obvious choice (i.e. the one where Dave pissed everyone off) would be 186. I'm not going into the details - Google it if you don't know.

But I think in the end, I'd have to choose issue 200. Dave breaks the fourth wall, and it's downhill from there. Total number of truly enjoyable and readable issues in the last hundred... probably less than five.

There is a certain facination to watching an author go completely and utterly off the deep end, but even that wears off by the time Hemmingway shows up.

"Jaka's Story" is the closest thing I've ever seen to pure literature in comics; an absolute high-water mark for the medium. After that, it's just a matter of how long you can bear watching Dave Sim slide into madness.

Pax.

[founder81]

DOCTOR DOOM = With Dazzler #3-4 (I think), Doom had become a big joke. It seemed that Marvel decided kicking Doom's ass would be the rite of passage for any and every character that came along. (In Doom's defense, however, Dazzler also took on Galactus and Terrax--and won.) Doom's character was not redeemed until the Emperor Doom GN.

ULTIMATES= Bendis making Pym a wife-beater is inexcusable and indefensible. Not to mention a cheap way to add "modern drama." I still read the Ultimates, but just for Thor and Iron Man.
.

This can give you some perspective on why the Dazzler series was like that:
http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2006/04/27/comic-book-urban-legend-revealed-48/

And the idea of Pym as a wife beater wasn't originated in the Ultimates book. More a case of being fully exploited. (fyi - Ultimates is written by Mark Millar, not Bendis).

[Jeremy A. Patterson]

I read the Dazzler Urban Legend Article, & I saw the Romita Jr. piece of Dazzler sent to Neal Bogard & I am puzzled: She was depicted as a black character with black makeup & a shaved head (I think)! Far different from the white gal with red hair that she eventually became!

Is this oddity a preliminary version of the character like those pre-hero Marvel prototypes, or is there something weird going on?


J.A.P.

[scratchie]

Is this oddity a preliminary version of the character like those pre-hero Marvel prototypes, or is there something weird going on?Um....

"At one point, Casablanca wanted the character to be black, hence the following piece that John Romita drew ... during the creation process."

[Shellhead]

Some of my favorites, and their jump-the-shark moments:

X-Men: I honestly didn't think the X-Men was a good comic until Neal Adams started drawing it. Ignoring the reprint issues and the cancellation, my jump-the-shark moment (JTSM, for the rest of this post) would be #170, when Storm apparently killed Callisto. The comic had been dropping in quality since #144, but that was the moment when the characterization was so far off that I knew I was done.

Iron Man: JSTM was sometime around #167, after Michelinie and Layton left. Tony became an alcoholic again and Jim Rhodes donned the armor. I liked Rhodey, but I didn't like the comic any more.

Avengers: in hindsight, Avengers hit the JSTM at issue #212, when Hank Pym became a wifebeater. #200 was bad enough, but you could see the characters making the mistake they made. In #214, Jim Shooter decided to ruin the reputation of one of the early Marvel heroes, for shock value and a brief boost to sales. I believe this set the stage for many similar mistakes at DC and Marvel, including the notorious Emerald Dawn.

Teen Titans: Why, yes, this was the end of the Teen Titans, at least as far as I was concerned.

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/86298402554.19.GIF

Swamp Thing: Yes, yes, the Alan Moore issues were brilliant. But so was the original run by Wein/Wrightson, and Rick Veitch did a great job, too. But the real JTSM for Swamp Thing happened between issues #87 and #88, when DC refused to publish the scene where Swamp Thing shows up at the crucifixtion of Jesus Christ. Veitch left, and the series took a dive from which it never recovered, even with the passage of two decades since then.

Grimjack: JSTM was sometime around #56, when Jim Twilley appeared as the reincarnated Grimjack. The new artist was overly fond of cluttered, chaotic panels and drew everything that way, and the story veered off at a stylistic tangent that I just couldn't get used to.

Elementals: The first series was great, but the second series stumbled and fell when Tommy became a wizard and some other guy became Monolith.

[Dr. Hfuhruhurr]

I agree with you on GRIMJACK, Shell. Tricksterpup was very disappointed in me when I revealed that Jim didn't do it for me. But, I did like how Flint Henry drew Jim getting the scar. Very creepy. I didn't mind Henry's art so much, but I agree with you that his visual storytelling didn't mesh very well with Ostrander's scripts. And, hey, anything after Ostrander/Mandrake is bound to disappoint.

I agree with you on AMAZING SPIDER-MAN, Nate, although there were a lot of bad issues before the Clone Sage (Round Robin anyone?), that's where it really veered off the cliff for me. I had hope when JMS took over, but then he did that asinine "Sins Past" story and I dropped it like a hot rock. I can't even force myself to open the book anymore.

UNCANNY X-MEN: Kitty Pryde joins. I loathe the character of Kitty Pryde. I mean, we're all trying to catch our breath from the Death of the Phoenix and Byrne draws a picture of Professor X's goofy grinning face holding up a goddamn lemonade to toast Kitty's arrival. Puke.

AVENGERS (vol. 1), I'd have to say issue #200 did it for me. Ms. Marvel gets pregnant with Immortus' baby, who rapidly ages into Marcus and she disappears off into Limbo with him and nobody bats an eye? WTF?

AVENGERS (vol.2), well, the Shark ate it, digested it and shat it back out all over the pages.

AVENGERS (vol.3): "Disassembled." As in, your brain had to have been disassembled and put back into your head through your nostrils in order to find enjoyment, or even logical coherence, in it at all. Scarlet Witch now casts illusions and, even though all the Avengers were there, almost none of them were, except the dead guys, who really aren't dead. Mostly.

NEW AVENGERS: With issue one, panel one.

FANTASTIC FOUR: After Kirby left, it sucked good and hard for a long time. Actually, I thought it was getting better with #200, then it fell into suck again. Then Byrne began his run and it was great, but the shark jumped for me when Johnny started making out with Alicia. And, yeah, they tried to fix it by making her a skrull and, boy, wasn't that a great fix. FF was never the same after that.

CAPTAIN AMERICA: There were so many ups and downs to that title, I only occasionally bought it. But the one that really irked me was Ed Brubaker's run on the recent restart. Excellent comic, one of my favorite things to read...right up until it turned out that the Winter Soldier really was Bucky. God, was I hoping that would have been some sort of misdirection thing. But, no, had to go for the big shock value. And now, Bucky's back and the world reacted with a collective, "So what?" After all the 'deaths' and schlocky "shock" moves in comics over the last several years, Bucky's return doesn't even merit a shrug from most people. And that's sad. For me, it killed the book.

[Simon Garth]

Iron Man: JSTM was sometime around #167, after Michelinie and Layton left.

Yep - Iron Man had its JTS moment the instant Denny O'Neil took over - some of the worst comics I've ever had the misfortune to read.

[Jeremy A. Patterson]

I had seen the Romita, Jr. sketch of the preliminary African-American Dazzler that was sent to Neal Bogart & I was surprised that such an oddity exists. I was most surprised by what she had where the white Dazzler's HAIR should have been located: It had nothing but a black tiger-striped bit of KISS make-up! I have two conclusions for this odd aspect of the preliminary Dazzler!

The first possibility is:

* That she had an extremely-close-cropped tiger striped mohawk that defeats the concept of a disco heroine. (Oddly enough, Storm would adopt a mohawk a few years later!)

The other possibility is:

* That she actually had, of all possible looks, a SHAVED HEAD, & the black tiger-stripe was in fact the work of black KISS-like make-up!

Take a closer look at that preliminary Dazzler, & tell us which is the correct conclusion?


J.A.P.

[tetragene]

Take a closer look at that preliminary Dazzler, & tell us which is the correct conclusion?


J.A.P.

Novaya Havoc owns the African-American Dazzler piece (he's the one that scanned it) and has spoken with John Romita Jr. over at Newsarama, so he would undoubtedly know. Since I first saw it I assumed her head was bald and the black stripe was make-up, like with the eyes. Novaya said that Romita Jr. based the design off of a famous black model of that time who had a very unique look to her (it was not Ioman, I don't believe). He wanted the character to have a non-standard appearance. When Casablanca wanted a film tie-in to star Bo Derek he made the changes toward a blue-eyed, blonde girl.

All info is from the "master of all things Dazzler", Novaya Havoc ;)

[Brian Cronin]

For what it's worth, Neal Bogart (for who the piece was originally created)'s biggest claim to fame WAS being the company that made KISS records, so it would not be all that surprising if the makeup WAS meant to evoke the KISS eye makeup.

-Brian

[Jeremy A. Patterson]

That was not the only comic book urban legend to feature Dazzler. There is one that focuses on the circa-1989 rumored 'Death of Dazzler'. It tells us her life was saved from the chopping block by none other than Marc Silvestri!


J.A.P.

[Your Imaginary Pal]

Punisher - Hey I'm temporailly a Black Man. Yet I'm still Frank Castle.
Green Goblin - I'm Norman Osbourne & somehow I'm still alive Years later after my glider impaled me, and I used to somhow pimp Gwen Stacy and she had twins.

[tetragene]

That was not the only comic book urban legend to feature Dazzler. There is one that focuses on the circa-1989 rumored 'Death of Dazzler'. It tells us her life was saved from the chopping block by none other than Marc Silvestri!


J.A.P.

Yeah, I've read about that as well. Apparently Claremont originally intended for Dazzler to die in the battle with Master Mold (her previous "glow shifting up the scale in luminensce from yellow to white" statement and the Seige Perilous depciting several different vesions of her dying was meant to be foreshadowing). But supposedly Silvestri liked the character and urged Claremont to bring back the Dazzler:The Movie storyline and put her in comic limbo instead of killing her.

I believe there's truth to it. Claremont has been asked about it many times and, sure enough, never answers the question (but answers almost every question around that one, lol).

[Novaya Havoc]

I read the Dazzler Urban Legend Article, & I saw the Romita Jr. piece of Dazzler sent to Neal Bogard & I am puzzled: She was depicted as a black character with black makeup & a shaved head (I think)! Far different from the white gal with red hair that she eventually became!

Is this oddity a preliminary version of the character like those pre-hero Marvel prototypes, or is there something weird going on?

J.A.P.

I own that JRjr piece, and I am the one that transcribed that article about Dazzler. ;) It took a LOT of work to finally debunk the whole "Dazzler was created by John Byrne and Claremont!" myth! Glad to see Cronin put it to use, but remember me next time, Brian! Remember me! :D

John Romita Jr. originally designed Dazzler after 80s model, singer, and actress Grace Jones (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grace_Jones). You can really see it in that concept piece.

However, Dazzler was a three-tier project: The comic book (Marvel), the singer (Casablanca), and a FILM (Filmworks). Jim Shooter actually did a Dazzler film treatment, and when Casablanca dropped out of the Dazzler project, they held off on publishing the Dazz series, because Shooter and Stan Lee were trying to get someone else to pick up the film.

Filmworks wasn't keen on the Grace Jones design, and wanted to promote Bo Derek. So JRjr shifted the design to look more like Bo, which evolved into the blond bombshell we have today. ;)

And yeah... KISS make-up and Dazzler isn't a coincidence; Casablanca was interested in the Disco/Dazzler project largely because of the success of Marvel's KISS super-specials. ;)

-Ben (Dazzler Historian Extraordinaire)

[Brian Cronin]

You didn't leave a reference on wikipedia!! It just said "from a private collection"!

I'd glaldy have credited you!

-Brian

[Novaya Havoc]

You didn't leave a reference on wikipedia!! It just said "from a private collection"!

I'd glaldy have credited you!

-Brian

<lol> Yeah, I know. I think under the actual image through Wiki it shows I uploaded it. Not super-fussy about it. I did leave props for myself in the transcribed article, though, but not under Novaya Havoc. ;)

We cool, BC. We cool. I'm just glad y'all found it informative (and cool enough to use!). That's why I try my best at piecing together some Dazz history.

[Ontir]

I own that JRjr piece, and I am the one that transcribed that article about Dazzler. ;) It took a LOT of work to finally debunk the whole "Dazzler was created by John Byrne and Claremont!" myth!-Ben (Dazzler Historian Extraordinaire)

I didn't know anyone thought Claremont and Byrne created Dazzler! I remember an article around the time of the issue with her arriving, there being some discussion of being told to put her in somewhere, which they did.

I also didn't know that she was originally based upon Grace Jones whom I still love!!! It's too bad that the parties involved didnt' go forward with it. Jones lived to mythologize herself in those days, and I think she'd have been up for the project! Although given to what she did to the stuntmen on Conan the Destroyer, I'm sure thier guild is happy it didn't go forward, in that way!

Any chance you can link the image?

[Novaya Havoc]

I didn't know anyone thought Claremont and Byrne created Dazzler! I remember an article around the time of the issue with her arriving, there being some discussion of being told to put her in somewhere, which they did.

I also didn't know that she was originally based upon Grace Jones whom I still love!!! It's too bad that the parties involved didnt' go forward with it. Jones lived to mythologize herself in those days, and I think she'd have been up for the project! Although given to what she did to the stuntmen on Conan the Destroyer, I'm sure thier guild is happy it didn't go forward, in that way!

Any chance you can link the image?

Oh, goodness. Almost everyone and their mother online thought CC/Byrne made the gal, because she was a (1) mutant character and (B) they penned her first appearance. Even Eric Moreels of ComiXFan changed her Marvel.com bio to list her "Chris Claremont and John Romita Jr." (?!) as her creators, before they started nixing the creator fields altogether. Can't win for losing, neh? But I'll try.

And here is the Grace Jones Dazzler! Interesting, neh? Maybe I'll get around to putting up the full, uncropped image. ;) I was sooo excited when I got this!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/99/Wiki_dazzler_aa.jpg/361px-Wiki_dazzler_aa.jpg


Oh, and Briaaaan... I have plenty of other Dazzler myths for you. Dazz's silver suit was based off of a girl JRjr used to date. ;) He used to go into discotheques to research the gal!

[Jeremy A. Patterson]

There more odd comic book urban legends out there. Here is one of them:

* The original Ferro Lad was originally intended to be the very first African-American super-hero of the Silver Age (DC brass & their rejection of the idea led to his demise!)


J.A.P.

[Jeremy A. Patterson]

The Grace Jones Dazzler is talked about in the 'Does The Wrong Hairstyle Turn You Off' thread in the community forum!


J.A.P.

[Jeremy A. Patterson]

Did any of you catch the Ferro Lad was supposed to be black rumor?

[Jeremy A. Patterson]

The current Comic Book Urban Legends has a bit that tries to link the Gorillaz with Tank Girl!


J.A.P.

[Jeremy A. Patterson]

Today's Urban Legends showcases Bob Wood's incarceration!


J.A.P.

[mtpspur]

The wife beater staus for Hank Pym in Avengers has always left a sour taste. I know the old Tales to Astonish stories are not 'classic; Marvel but they had one thing going for them NONE of the other series. Hank and Jan made a very fun couple who enjoyed each other's company and you knew it was just a manner of time before Hank would propose.

The story line also brought up what is the Avengers MAJOR weakness. The DO NOT support their team members when the individual gets in trouble. The just ignore it or hope it goes away. Earliest instance: Avengers 11 when Iron Man is expelled for a week for - wait for it-- missing a Avengers Assemble call. Issuenot hand but I believe he had been fighting the Mandarin in his own series.

Much as I hate the Avengers Disassembled story (because of Hawkeye) I will say Bendis got one thing VERY right. The Scarlet Witch has had a terrible time with men.

History: Pawed over by Mastermind in early X-Men issues--Magento interupted. Unrequited and totally unrealized (by Cap) infatuation with Captain America.

Thoughts about Hercules (Annual 1)--lets be honest he just had his arm around her getting back to home.

Arkon (isue 76/77)--there's prize to be crying over.

Even my favorite Hawkeye hits on her in a BAD way in Avengers 99--thanks goodness it was never picked up on further but I sided with the Vision on that one. Chalk it up to strees from surviving the Kree/Skrull war I guess.

The Vision/Wonder Man mess that got worse and worse. (For the record I liked Vision and WAnda when they were married -(but let's admit it--they were too happy and became boring.

Thereal problem for me--in all theseyears Wanda was never shown to have such power on a Jean Gey level which is why House of M still annoys.

Yes The Avengers is still my all time favorite team--warts and all but I liked it better when Kang took credit for Hank's breakdowns. (Kurt Busiek not withstanding.)

[Wolverine_Patch_X]

I think X-Men just jumped the shark with the whole House of M thing, so many mutants losing their powers, Wolverine getting his memory back, not cool. I think it tends to be a pattern with new comics which is why I tend to only read the old ones, especially X-Men, I only read them from the 60's to mid 90's.

[TROUBLEZ]

Not classics but oh well...

Ghost Rider vol. 2 when for the 25th issue Marvel gave us a double page fold-out cover of Ghost Rider transforming into Danny, which also showcased the new supporting cast that no one would learn to love, and also replacing the artist that made Ghost Rider great with someone else. Also when the X-Men and The Brood guest starred.

Amazing Spider-man
When an out of character Peter slaps a pregnant Mary Jane.

X-Men and the whole X-Line
when Jim Lee, Whilce Portacio, Rob Liefeld, and Marc Silvestri were replaced with imposters aping their style and all the comics looked all extreme and hectic.

Batman-when Jason Todd was resurrected.

[founder81]

Not classics but oh well...

Amazing Spider-man
When an out of character Peter slaps a pregnant Mary Jane.


I disagree this is a jump the shark moment. Peter was very stressed, confused, and infuriated when this happened. I don't think it was out of character given the circumstances, and right afterwards he runs away in shame and shock.

[RMThompson]

OK so it wasnt a LONG running series... but Gen 13 Jumped after Campbell left... the first time.

They tried so hard to get the feel of the original 15 books or so had.

Also Id say Spawn #51.