5 Deaths to Leave Alone; 5 Deaths that Begged to be Retconned

[Lorendiac]

Everyone else, please post your own lists!

When I decided to organize my thoughts on which deaths in the DCU most deserved to be left alone, or most desperately needed to be retconned, I ended up with a couple of ground rules for myself:

1. I don't count anything that only happened in or after 2004. Too many tempers need time to cool.

2. I don't count anything that I strongly suspect was never intended to be permanent. For instance, I felt no need to mention Superman's death in 1992; because even at the time, I took it for granted he'd be back fairly soon! Too much of a cash cow to be lost forever.


5 Deaths to Leave Alone

1. Terra (Tara Markov) in "The Judas Contract." Marv Wolfman and George Perez spent about a year and a half building up to her death, as they subsequently admitted (I was buying their Titans title every month during that timeframe and hadn't realized where it was all headed - of course, I was younger and more trusting in those days).

2. Robin #2 (Jason Todd) in "A Death in the Family." As written by Jim Starlin, he was a vicious, unstable little thug who didn't have a clue how to efficiently trace his own ancestry despite months of training in detective work from Batman, and who (probably) killed a rapist in a premeditated murder. Fans voted to let him die. He has a far more powerful influence on Batman's life as a corpse than he ever would as a "Look, I'm back from the dead just like everybody else and his brother!" character. Leave it be!

3. Doomsday in "The Death of Superman." He only existed to fight Superman to the death in a classic case of Mutual Assured Destruction. He did that. Having served as a Walking Plot Device to kill Superman in an incredibly lame story arc - in order to set things up for some much better stories over the next several months - Doomsday had no further purpose in life, so he ought to stay dead.

4. Queen Hippolyta in "Our World at War." I have not been terribly impressed by anything I've seen of Hippolyta in the last 15 years or so, and I believe that if she comes back, it would mean that no "name" character who died in OWAW "really" died, which would make the entire huge crossover event even more pointless than it already seems to have been (granted, that's very hard to believe, but still!).

5. Flash #2 (Barry Allen) in "Crisis on Infinite Earths." I once posted my theory that he has essentially become the Token Permanent Death of well-established DC heroes. As long as he stays dead, DC can say with a straight face that when they kill off someone pretty famous who used to have his own book . . . sometimes they really mean it in the long run!

(I thought of listing Sue Dibny, but decided to stick to a rule about only listing deaths from pre-2004.)


5 Deaths that Begged to be Retconned

1. The Hal Jordan Green Lantern in "Final Night." In this case, to bring back the Hal I knew and loved, it would be necessary to retcon quite a bit of stuff that happened before "Final Night" too. Which is exactly what Geoff Johns is now doing!

2. Donna Troy in "Graduation Day." Was there any point to this, other than to have her disappear (by "dying") just long enough to totally shatter the relatively light-hearted tone of the Young Justice team so that they'd break up and some of them would defect to the next version of the Titans?

3. Lilith in "Graduation Day." See comments above. ("Graduation Day" may take pride in being the only story to win two slots out of a possible five in the same category in my list!)

4. The KGBeast in Jim Starlin's "Ten Nights of the Beast." Not that I care if the KGBeast is still around for future stories or not, but the way Starlin implicitly "killed" him at the end of his first story arc was to have Batman leave him sealed up in an underground concrete room in the sewer system, with no food or water supply, to slowly die in confinement. This was a bad idea and desperately needed to be retconned (as Marv Wolfman did when he took over on Batman the following year).

5. Supergirl #1 (Kara Zor-El, Linda Lee, Linda Danvers) in "Crisis on Infinite Earths." Although this one is trickier because first she died, second she was mourned, third she was erased from continuity so that she had never existed! So "bringing her back" did not require specifically saying that you were retconning her death in Crisis - because she had no longer died in Crisis in the first place, had she? ;)

She really should have been brought back long before now. (There were a few prior attempts that were promptly scuttled by editors, I believe.) I haven't read the latest attempt to bring her back, because it came out in monthly issues written by Jeph Loeb. I no longer read his work that way. When it's in a TPB collection ask me again and I'll be more up to date. But no matter whether Loeb did it badly or skillfully, it Needed to be Done.

(I thought of listing Oliver Queen, but I've been told that nobody at DC ever intended to leave him dead indefinitely, anyway. Replacing him with Connor Hawke was only intended as a stunt from Day One, just like the Death of Superman.)

[Captain Jim]

Great idea for a thread! I definitely agree about Barry Allen and Jason Todd needing to stay dead. Didn't they already bring Terra back though? I'm not sure about this, because I didn't read the old "Team Titans," which is where I thought I saw her.

I also defintely agree about bringing back Hal Jordan. Not so sure about Donna Troy, but if Donna comes back, I definitely *don't* want to see Lilith come back.

[BAnderson]

5 Deaths to leave alone

1. Lex Luthor - should have stayed dead the first time dangit
2. Supergirl- I'm sorry but I like pink plasma
3. Doomsday- total agreement
4. Hal Jordan- I love Kyle way to much
5. Ice- I loved her death and her whole set-up

5 Deaths to be reconned

1. Barry Allen
2. Barry Allen
3. Barry Allen
4. Barry Allen
5. Barry Allen

[Typo Lad]

Yeah, Terra's been retconned, alas. it hasn't beene xplained byond the fact that DNA testing revealed she was in fact Tara Markov.

I figure... hypertime!

[Josh]

I've said it once and I'll say it again:

If Barry Allen's death is EVER undone, I will quit comics altogether forever without looking back. Barry is the one character who should never ever be resurrected.

[Alan2099]

Bring back ...
Crimson Fox: They always had a great gimic that was far underused.
Film Freak: Another wasted gimic
Ice: The old team of Booster, Guy, Beetle,a nd the rest just really seems like it's missing Ice.


Leave them dead
HAL JORDAN: I never cared for him when he was alive, but after he went crazy, they kept running him inot the ground. Comig Next Issue: Hal Jordan gets a chance to redeem himself coming three issues later, Hal gets another chance to redeem himself. Frankly, the guy was more intresting as Parallax, but he died and should have stayed that way.
Jason Todd: Punk. I never found him intresting at all and the fans hated him.
Hyppolyta: let somebody stay dead. please.
Terra: The entire story was building up to her death. Without that, there's not much story.

[Thnikkaman]

Deaths to leave alone:

1. Barry Allen

2. Jason Todd (too bad they're so determined to undo this one)

3. Wesley Dodds

4. Danny Chase

5. Ted Knight


Deaths that should be undone

1. Donna Troy (and they're doing it!)

2. Ice

3. Sue Dibney

Can't really think of any others I'd want enough...

[sixstringguild]

5 Deaths to be Undone:
1. Jason Todd: there is just too much potential in this. Having a villain that was personally trained by Batman and a former "son" of his, that just hasn't been done yet and we need some new ideas added to the Batman mythos. He knows all of Batman's secrets and knows how he fights. That has some great conflict potential
2-5. I can't think of anymore

[founder81]

Yeah, Terra's been retconned, alas. it hasn't beene xplained byond the fact that DNA testing revealed she was in fact Tara Markov.

I figure... hypertime!

But how can Terra's death be considered a retcon/hypertime etc. her deth was pre crisis. Much like the orgiinal supergirl. The death may never have happened.

[fumetti]

Deaths to Retconn:

1. Barry Allen
2. Barry Allen
3. Barry Allen
4. Barry Allen
5. Barry Allen

Why? Because Barry *IS* the Silver Age! Barry's the guy who brought back superheroes for good. Crisis was CRAP. Barry dies and he gets nothing but a R.I.P. notice in the back of Crisis 6, but when Supergirl dies (a totally useless ripoff with no meaning to comics history except to secure the "--girl" franchise) she gets a cover AND a double-sized issue. What a crock.

I'm not saying Barry should get the Flash title back. I don't care about that. Alive, sane, and happily retired is okay by me. (I felt the same about Hal Jordan. I don't care that he was replaced as GL, only that Dooley f****d up the character in doing it.)

[Gingold]

Deaths to leave alone-

1. Barry Allen
2. Terra
3. Ferro Lad
4. Ted Knight
5.) *
I'm of two minds on Kara Zor-El. If her existenced hadn't been retconned away after the Crisis, and she still existed in Superman's past, then I'd be of the opinion to never bring her back, a la Barry Allen, to keep the moment memorable and emotional. But killing her and then retroactively wiping out her life (and by extention, her death) defeats the purpose. So I'm kinda happy that she's back. Better than the who matrix/earth angel thing which never made any sense.

Deaths that beg to be retconned:

1.) Ice
2.) Crimson Fox
3.) Kid Eternity
4.) Sue Dibny
5.) Spoiler

[Typo Lad]

But how can Terra's death be considered a retcon/hypertime etc. her deth was pre crisis. Much like the orgiinal supergirl. The death may never have happened.

Not her death, her not being dead.

While Terra's actual death did occur pre-Crises, post-Crises storylines confirmed that it was still part of the continuity. This includes storylines wherein the "New" Terra basically is freaking out at the thought of actually being the original traitor.

[Smarty Jones]

I agree there are some characters who should stay dead.

1.) Barry Allen. As much as I liked him, the Silver Age Flash died in arguably the most significant death in DC Comics. Also it extends some legacy in the DC Universe, in this case from Allen to Wally West.

2.) Jason Todd. What would be the purpose of bringing him back, beyond some petty gimmick? I was not a fan of Jason Todd, and it seems having him killed by The Joker has made him more memorable in death than in life.

3.) Hippolyta. She became a Wonder Woman knockoff when she was retconned into Wonder Woman I. I can see no importance in resurrecting her, because I see her character as compromised.

4.) Donna Troy. I liked the character, but when her history became so convoluted it became nearly impossible to enjoy her.

5.) The Anti-Monitor. He served his purpose as the conceptual being behind "Crisis on Infinite Earths." Let's not diminish his purpose with a cheap resurrection.

Think if anything, I can name some characters I wish had stayed dead.

1.) The Doom Patrol. Arguably the first group of modern-day heroes to sacrifice themselves for others, it was an absolute mistake to bring them back. I know people are upset at John Byrne for retconning their history, but the table for bringing back The Chief and Negative Man was set a long time ago (Robotman should have lived only temporarily to help The Teen Titans bring their killers to justice).

2.) Rex Tyler. I have nothing against the original Hourman, but what is the importance of bringing him back when The JSA has several legacy characters still alive and kicking? I don't want to endure images of seeing old man Rex trying to reach for his costume every time there is some danger.

3.) Hal Jordan. Another character I thought was fine, but he should have stayed dead. Jordan's resurrection in "Green Lantern: Rebirth" is nothing but the ultimate retcon, where all logic is being tossed out of the window.

4.) The Legion of Super-Heroes. IMO, the original version of this team was destroyed after the "five years later" storyline and the reboots are just pale imitations of them. I'm not enamored by any of the new versions.

5.) The Green Lantern Corps. This was a great concept and maybe it could have been brought back in another fashion, but the current retcon going on over the past several years was not it. I'm also including Sinestro, who has come back with a lame excuse in "Green Lantern: Rebirth," and Killowog.

[BAnderson]

You are all so cold for not letting Barry back. Couldn't a great story come along and make his return great!

[Typo Lad]

3.) Hippolyta. She was basically a Wonder Woman clone who became useless and repetitive when the Justice Society of America's Earth-2 merged with Earth[/font]

I don't follow you on this.

Hyppolita never was a member of the JSA until well AFTER the Crises. Thatwas a retcon. One I rather liked, actually.

[Slam_Bradley]

I don't follow you on this.

Hyppolita never was a member of the JSA until well AFTER the Crises. That was a retcon. One I rather liked, actually.

It was certainly better than Roy the Boy's attempt to shoehorn Miss America in to WW's place in the JSA.

[Ned Leeds]

You are all so cold for not letting Barry back. Couldn't a great story come along and make his return great!


But again, why? Why do we need Barry back? He is the gold standard for superhero deaths. I am a big Barry Alllen fan, but just cuz I like the guy doesn't mean he should be back. I feel the same way about Donna Troy and Hal Jordan. And on the Marvel front, I hope they leave Hawkeye, Vision, Red Skull and Jean Grey dead dead DEAD. Hell they should have let Red Skull stay dead after Captain America #300. Same with Jean Grey after original Phoenix storyline.

I loved the original Hobgoblin (when he as Ned Leeds). When Ned got killed, they should have let the character of Hobby die with him. Having Macendale (Jack-O-Lantern) take over was pretty lame. And then the retcon with Kingsley was even worse. This is what you get when you muck with character deaths.

[Smarty Jones]

"Hyppolita never was a member of the JSA until well AFTER the Crises. Thatwas a retcon. One I rather liked, actually."

When The Justice Society of America was integrated into Earth-1 after "Crisis on Infinite Earths," Wonder Woman's membership in the JSA had to be reconciled. Obviously, Diana was not a member so it had to be retconned that her mother Hippolyta was a member.

Making Hippolyta a superheroine seemed a little contrary to her original role in the Wonder Woman mythos, IMO. I always understood her as being slightly fearful of Diana integrating into humanity, because it was borne out of her relative naiviety about the modern world. Now, Diana is a second-generation superheroine who is following in her mother's steps of joining that era's flasghip team. But given that Diana is the character associated with the monicker Wonder Woman, it ends up making Hippolyta look like the knock-off. She basically went from the regal ruler of the Amazons of Thymescira to a tired, past-her-prime superheroine.

Maybe I would not feel that way about Hippolyta had there not been a Wonder Woman kept in the JSA's history, like how Superman and Batman were written out of the mythos. But by retconning Hippolyta into Wonder Woman I, she lost her uniqueness (especially when she was Diana's fill-in in The JLA).

I hope that makes sense.

[Typo Lad]

When The Justice Society of America was integrated into Earth-1 after "Crisis on Infinite Earths," Wonder Woman's membership in the JSA had to be reconciled. Obviously, Diana was not a member so it had to be retconned that her mother Hippolyta was a member.

But Smarty, that isn't what happened.

Initially, the retcon was that all Wonder Woman appearances in the JSA were actually Miss America. They also retconned Fury of Infinity Inc. Instead of being Diana's daughter, they invented a Golden Age Fury for her to be the child of.

Hyppolyta as Wonder Woman didn't happen until John Byrne's run on Wonder Woman in the late 90s, where he retconned that retcon.

In retrospect, it made a LOT more sense than shoehorning Miss America in. Still, what you're talking about didn't happen till well over a decade AFTER Crises.

Making Hippolyta a superheroine seemed a little contrary to her original role in the Wonder Woman mythos, IMO. I always understood her as being slightly fearful of Diana integrating into humanity, because it was borne out of her relative naiviety about the modern world. Now, Diana is a second-generation superheroine who is following in her mother's steps of joining that era's flasghip team. But given that Diana is the character associated with the monicker Wonder Woman, it ends up making Hippolyta look like the knock-off. She basically went from the regal ruler of the Amazons of Thymescira to a tired, past-her-prime superheroine.

See, I didn't see it that way.

1) "Polly" was immortal, so there's no past her prime element.
2) As I recall, she travelled back in time to take part in JSA adventures. So in fact, even though she's the mother of Diana, Diana was still Wonder Woman "first".

Besides, WW's chronolgy was all messed up when they decided that she didn't show up until LEGENDS, thus excising her from Wonder Girl's origin.

Maybe I would not feel that way about Hippolyta had there not been a Wonder Woman kept in the JSA's history, like how Superman and Batman were written out of the mythos. But by retconning Hippolyta into Wonder Woman I, she lost her uniqueness (especially when she was Diana's fill-in in The JLA). I hope that makes sense.

If not for the innacuracies, it would.

[SirChasm]

You are all so cold for not letting Barry back. Couldn't a great story come along and make his return great!

See The Return Of Barry Allen trade for a treat then :cool:
hands down my favourite Waid Flash tale

[Smarty Jones]

"Initially, the retcon was that all Wonder Woman appearances in the JSA were actually Miss America. They also retconned Fury of Infinity Inc. Instead of being Diana's daughter, they invented a Golden Age Fury for her to be the child of.

Hyppolyta as Wonder Woman didn't happen until John Byrne's run on Wonder Woman in the late 90s, where he retconned that retcon."

But that is the retcon now, that Hippolyta was Wonder Woman in World War II, fighting alongside the Justice Society of America. The fact that John Byrne retconned out another person who was in the Wonder Woman role doesn't change the fact that as of canon Hippolyta was Wonder Woman in the JSA.

It personally would have been better off had there not been a Wonder Woman presence in the JSA in the first place when the team was integrated into Earth-1. Just like the Earth-2 Superman and Batman were taken out of the JSA's history. IMO, Hippolyta's character was compromised.

Nothing inaccurate about that. Does that make sense now?

"1) 'Polly' was immortal, so there's no past her prime element.
2) As I recall, she travelled back in time to take part in JSA adventures. So in fact, even though she's the mother of Diana, Diana was still Wonder Woman 'first'.

1.) Don't take it so literally. Basically Hippolyta is seen as the knockoff because Diana is the one associated with the name Wonder Woman. Retconning her into a JSA member doesn't change that Diana is the one known as that monicker.

2.) When Wonder Woman "died" fighting Neron, Hippolyta was the one who put back on the Wonder Woman outfit. That's one thing, because she saw it as penace for abusing her royal power and in a story moving forward.

Having Hippolyta as Wonder Woman in World War II is different, because now the canon is that she was Wonder Woman first and Diana is basically a second-generation hero -- which changes the mythos.

I now look at her as a knockoff, similar to how USAgent is a knockoff of Captain America or War Machine is a knockoff of Iron Man.

[Typo Lad]

But that is the retcon now, that Hippolyta was Wonder Woman in World War II, fighting alongside the Justice Society of America. The fact that John Byrne retconned out another person who was in the Wonder Woman role doesn't change the fact that as of canon Hippolyta was Wonder Woman in the JSA.

Ah-ah-ah! But that wasn't what you SAID, my good man! You directly put Crises as the cause and Polly in the JSA as an effect.

In fact, you did it not once, but twice:



3.) Hippolyta. She was basically a Wonder Woman clone who became useless and repetitive when the Justice Society of America's Earth-2 merged with Earth-1. I can see no importance in resurrecting her.
/color]

and

When The Justice Society of America was integrated into Earth-1 after "Crisis on Infinite Earths," Wonder Woman's membership in the JSA had to be reconciled. Obviously, Diana was not a member so it had to be retconned that her mother Hippolyta was a member.


Hippolyta couldn't have been " a Wonder Woman clone who became useless and repetitive when the Justice Society of America's Earth-2 merged with Earth-1,", because she didn't become a knock off until over a decade after the Crises.

You know, it wouldn't kill you to say "Oh gee, did I mess up?" Because at the very least, you did a poor job of communicating your point. At most, you mistook a second, better retcon for the initial piss-poor one. Which isn't a major sin.

That said, I enjoyed the concept, but am glad she's dead.

It personally would have been better off had there not been a Wonder Woman presence in the JSA in the first place when the team was integrated into Earth-1. Just like the Earth-2 Superman and Batman were taken out of the JSA's history. IMO, Hippolyta's character was compromised.

Actually, Roy Thomas DID create replacements for Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman and many of the Earth-1 Heroes. In Young All-Stars, he explained in the text page that the "energies" of the retconned heroes would still exist, so he moved it around. Cute concept, great initial first two issues too.

Nothing inaccurate about that. Does that make sense now?

Sure, but it doesn't negate the fact that your previous statements, quoted above, were either unclear or in error.


1.) Don't take it so literally. Basically Hippolyta is seen as the knockoff because Diana is the one associated with the name Wonder Woman. Retconning her into a JSA member doesn't change that Diana is the one known as that monicker.[/quote]

*twitch*

You see her as a knockoff. I saw it as a neat way to explain away leftovers from Crises and who Donna Troy took inspiration from.

Although I did feel that having her be WW Sr once she finished her time travel adventures was bit of dilution, yes.

Having Hippolyta as Wonder Woman in World War II is different, because now the canon is that she was Wonder Woman first and Diana is basically a second-generation hero -- which changes the mythos.

Sometimes, change is good.

I now look at her as a knockoff, similar to how USAgent is a knockoff of Captain America or War Machine is a knockoff of Iron Man.[/font]

See, I liekd USAgent once upon a time. NOW I find him annoying as heck.

[Smarty Jones]

A"h-ah-ah! But that wasn't what you SAID, my good man! You directly put Crises as the cause and Polly in the JSA as an effect."

It's pretty obvious you misunderstood my original thought, which is why I subsequently clarified my post.

I never said nor meant to imply "Crisis on Infinite Earths" was the cause of Hippolyta becoming Wonder Woman. What I meant is that when the Justice Society of America were merged into Earth-1's history after "Crisis," one of the big inconsistencies was that the Earth-2 Wonder Woman was a member.

With the established history that the JSA started in World War II, it would be impossible to reconcile the Wonder Woman we know as being in that group (especially since we know how Diana turned up at the end of "Crisis").

In canon, it has been retconned now that Hippolyta was Wonder Woman in that era (I never mentioned Miss America because in light of canon now she has no place; I was aware of her and the attempt to retcon her as the World War II Wonder Woman). The fact that Hippolyta WAS Wonder Woman in World War II takes away somewhat from the uniqueness of her character and Wonder Woman's.

I would have preferred that Diana had been the only person to have worn that mantle, and that her mother was the ruler of Amazons who had no interaction with civilization for centuries -- not a knockoff superheroine who rolled around with Wildcat back in the day to get away from ruling Thymescira. Now when I think of Hippolyta, I think of a Wonder Woman knockoff.

[ducklord]

5 DC characters that should stay dead (ignoring obvious ones like the Waynes):

Barry Allen - Barry died well. His death is a symbolic marker of the final, no-doubt-about-it end of the Silver Age. His legacy is in Bart and Wally's capable hands, with Jay hanging around for historical perspective. Metaphysically, it can be argued that Barry's death holds the DCU together.

Jason Todd - He died somewhat crassly (a phone-in poll? Ye gods...), but it was about as final a death as you can get in comics. He was a non-metahuman who got his head caved in by a crowbar, and was blown up real good. His body was found by the world's greatest detective, who decared him dead, and had him buried on his property. He visited his grave for years. We've seen his ghost on a couple of occasions, and his zombie at least once. If Jason comes back, I fear that thousands of fanboys will go blind as their eyes permanently roll into the backs of their heads.

Ted Knight - The last thing I want to see is some shuffling zombie trying to read WJM's teleprompter: "This...just in...Chuckles... the Clown... is... BRAAAAAAAaaaaains!"

Seriously, though, Starman I died well, and should stay that way.

Terra - She died as she lived, a sociopath. Her death got me into college...I'd be saddened to see it officially wiped out.

Jim Corrigan - I know, he was dead already. Still, he's gone to his final reward. He should be allowed to finally rest in peace.

Five guys and gals I'd bring back (pre-2004):
Donna Troy and Lilith - Possibly the two lamest, event-driven comic deaths of this millenium.

Ice - Whenever a writer apologizes for killing a character, that's an open invitaion to bring 'em back.

The Earth-Two Speedy - Always listed amongst the dead and retconned of the Crisis, but we never saw him killed/wiped out. His story is aching, aching I tell you, to be told!

Kobra - I suspect that he's biding his time, waiting for the right moment to strike.

Mike.

[Calamas]

4.) The Legion of Super-Heroes. IMO, the original version of this team was destroyed after the "five years later" storyline and the reboots are just pale imitations of them. I'm not enamored by any of the new versions. Actually, I feel what Waid and Kitson are doing is as close to classic Legion as possible in today’s DCU. I honestly look forward to each new issue, and I haven’t felt that way since Levitz left.
I'm not saying Barry should get the Flash title back. I don't care about that. Alive, sane, and happily retired is okay by me. . . .Let me start with this: the Barry Allen Flash is my favorite all-time hero. That being said; he’s dead and he should stay dead. You want “Alive, sane, and happily retired.” Well, that’s Jay Garrick--all but the retired part.

We comic readers are jaded because death no longer has any permanence; we come to expect revivals when a new power-that-be is hired, or sometimes with just a new big-name creative team. So why not bring back (fill in the blank).

Of course comics also retard the aging process, and we’re not alone there. Perry Mason and Co. never aged a day. The cops of 87th Preceinct have aged at an extremely slow rate compared to the years Ed McBain has been producing them. But Matt Scudder and Dave Brandstetter have aged in real time, along with their writers and readers. Sorry that all my examples are from the crime genre; that’s what I mostly read. And the point is that there are also series that had run their course and had come to end. Brandstetter, mentioned above, is one. And the most famous detective of all, Sherlock Holmes, basically retired. Series do end. And sometimes it can end with the protagonist death, although I do admit that's more rare.

Barry Allen had a great run, led a great life, left a lot good in his wake, and died a heroes death. What more can you ask of life, real or fictional.

[Typo Lad]

It's pretty obvious your misunderstood my original thought, which is why I subsequently clarified my post.

Yes, and said clarification was also a tad unclear.

You know, when that happens more than once, maybe the problem isn't the other person.

I never said nor meant to imply "Crisis on Infinite Earths" was the cause of Hippolyta becoming Wonder Woman. What I meant is that when the Justice Society of America were merged into Earth-1's history, one of the big inconsistencies was that the Earth-2 Wonder Woman was a member.

Again, your exact words:

When The Justice Society of America was integrated into Earth-1 after "Crisis on Infinite Earths," Wonder Woman's membership in the JSA had to be reconciled. Obviously, Diana was not a member so it had to be retconned that her mother Hippolyta was a member.

Okay, so let's review:

1: JSA is integrated into same timeline as JLA.
2: Diana couldn't be a member.
3: So they made Hippolyta a member.

Do you not see how that's the direct inferance of that paragraph?

Really it's:

1: JSA is integrated into same timeline as JLA.
2: Diana couldn't be a member.
3: Roy Thomas made Miss America and the Golden Age Fury to replace her in the mythos.
4: John Byrne had a better idea (which happens once in a blue moon).
5: So a time-travel story was written that retconned Hippolyta into membership.

She didn't become WW as a result of the Crises. She became Wonder Woman for no reason other than the fact John Byrne wanted to tell the story.

What's amazing is while writing that good idea, he butchered Donna.

Oh well, I'm off topic.

With the established history that the JSA started in World War II, it would be impossible to reconcile the Wonder Woman we know as being in that group. In canon, it has been retconned that Hippolyta was Wonder Woman in that era (I never mentioned Miss America because in light of canon now she has no place; I was aware of her and the attempt to retcon her as the World War II Wonder Woman).

Again, while I understand all this, you gave the impression that you became "bored" with her around Crises due to this retcon. I see what you mean now, but you may want to work on your communication skills. YOU may know what you mean, but how are we supposed to?

The fact is that Hippolyta WAS Wonder Woman in World War II, which takes away somewhat from the uniqueness of her character and Wonder Woman's. I would prefer that Diana had been the only person to have worn that mantle, and that her mother was the ruler of Amazons who had no interaction with civilization for centuries -- not a knockoff superheroine who rolled around with Wildcat back in the day.

Thanks for the mental image.

See, here's why I liked it.

Remember that this was time travel, right?

So first you have Hippolyta all aloof about "Man's World" and doubting if sending her only daughter out was a good idea, etc. No interaction with the outside world.

All of the sudden, she has to take UP that role.

She goes back in time and find that she LIKE'S Man's World.

She goes forward to her own time, having grown as a character.

The retcon was great because it was done in such a way so as not to throw out all the prior "Hippolyta as a Queen of a Hidden Isle" stories. It was a progression that occured on panel, which I liked.

[Smarty Jones]

"Okay, so let's review:
1: JSA is integrated into same timeline as JLA.
2: Diana couldn't be a member.
3: So they made Hippolyta a member."

Your problem is that you're so intent on being right that you're not following anything I said.

I never said that; you're READING something that isn't there or TRYING to make a mountain out of an ant hill. I never mentioned Miss America because it isn't germane to the discussion. Hippolyta is NOW retconned into being Wonder Woman in the JSA during World War II. I never said anything suggesting that Hippolyta was retconned into Wonder Woman immediately after or because of "Crisis on Infinite Earths."

"Again, while I understand all this, you gave the impression that you became "bored" with her around Crises due to this retcon. I see what you mean now, but you may want to work on your communication skills."

I think if anything, you need to work on your interpersonal skills, because you're belaboring a point that was clarified several posts ago

[Typo Lad]

Your problem is that you're so intent on being right that you're not following anything I said.

I never said that; you're READING something that isn't there or TRYING to make a mountain out of an ant hill. I never mentioned Miss America because it isn't germane to the discussion. Hippolyta is NOW retconned into being Wonder Woman in the JSA during World War II. I never said anything suggesting that Hippolyta was retconned into Wonder Woman immediately after or because of "Crisis on Infinite Earths."

Sure looked like it at first.

Oh, I'm not intent on being right, btw. I'm just having too much fun to let this go.



I think if anything, you need to work on your interpersonal skills, because you're belaboring a point that was clarified several posts ago [/QUOTE]

Just responding to your responses.

[Smarty Jones]

"Oh, I'm not intent on being right, btw. I'm just having too much fun to let this go."

So you like being viewed as petty and argumentative? Those aren't exactly endearing personal qualities.

[Typo Lad]

So you like being viewed as petty and argumentative? Those aren't exactly endearing personal qualities.

You and I have been in serveral threads together before and I respect your opinions too much to have you think that of me.

I was trying to be cute last post, but I'm dropping this.

[reggiegold]

So, during her time travel jaunt, (which was explained as being eight years long?) did her Themyscira self exist at the same time?

Maybe theres a story there, maybe not.

Ooh, now my head hurts.....

[Ned Leeds]

Ref: Smarty Jones/Morts fight....


Get a room you two!!!

[Buried Alien]

Although I've given up the futile fight to get Barry Allen resurrected in the DCU, I do hope that DC continues to supply us with a steady flow of untold Barry stories...if only as a reminder that Barry was a great character, not just some guy who died.

It's kind of sad that a character is remembered only for dying.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Calamas]

I can't speak for others, but I remember him for his (fictional) life and the joy those stories gave me. Dying a heros death is just a bonus.

[Lorendiac]

But how can Terra's death be considered a retcon/hypertime etc. her deth was pre crisis. Much like the orgiinal supergirl. The death may never have happened.

Here's my understanding of it. Nearly all of the "Earth-1" characters who died during Crisis are still fondly remembered by their friends and relatives. Dove, Barry Allen, Kole, Aquagirl, and probably others I'm forgetting. Likewise, most of the previous comic books set on Earth-1 that had occurred in pre-Crisis stories - including people dying - remained in continuity pretty much as we remembered it, unless specifically stated otherwise. (For example, we soon found out that ALL Superman stories and ALL Wonder Woman stories, from Earth-1 or Earth-2 or Earth-Whatever, had been Totally Erased. Ditto for Superman's cousin Supergirl, since DC had decided to experiment with having Superman be the One and Only Surviving Kryptonian for the foreseeable future at the time. So Kara Zor-El was one person from Earth-1 continuity who died and then ceased to exist, but she was an exception to the general rule as I understand it.)

But if you were from Earth-1 in the Pre-Crisis era, and if your name wasn't Superman, Supergirl, or Wonder Woman, or a regular member of their supporting casts, then you were probably in pretty good shape as far as your old stories still being part of the historical record. And after all, Marv Wolfman wrote Crisis himself; he wasn't likely to wipe out his own work of the last few years on the New Teen Titans when he did it, was he? :)

And as Morts pointed out, years later when the Titans of the Post-Crisis DCU first met the Team Titans with their new Terra who looked exactly like the old Terra (in stories also written by Wolfman) everybody vividly remembered the old Terra who had died in "The Judas Contract." I've heard, however, that Marv has said that it was always meant as a mind game to play on us and on the characters, but that he never intended to reveal the new Terra as a rehabilitated and amnesiac version of the old Terra. Someone else did that years later; I don't know why.

[barbgrayson]

Jericho
Robin II
Terra I
Supergirl I
Flash II
Ought to stay dead

[Sk8maven]

Who should stay dead?
- Wes Dodds
- Ted Knight
- Barry Allen
- Alex Montez
- Extant (PLEASE!!!)

Who should be brought back?
- Hippolyta (ASAP!)
- Al Pratt
- Charles McNider (but only to retire)
- Donna Troy (I gather they're working on it)
- Max Mercury (move him to 31st century so he can mentor XS?)

Maven

[Paradox]

Who should stay dead?

Everybody

Who should be brought back?

No one

I'd like to see an end put to this hoary cliché.

[The Shadow]

Who should stay dead?

Everybody

Who should be brought back?

No one

I'd like to see an end put to this hoary cliché.
100% agree with you!!!!

I especially hate seeing the JSA heroes (Hourman most recenty) come back. The torch was passed... MOVE ON!!!

[Doug Strange]

Bringing Rex Tyler back was just egregiously weird and unnecessary. Johns had turned Rick into somebody potentially interesting (not that he actually WAS interesting, but he could have been) and then almost immediately outmoded him.

He also completely undermined his own subplot, to my mind. The timepoint thing where Rick and Rex only had 1 hour left to spend together could have been really poignant, but what we got instead was highly unsatisfying. Why set it up this way if you're not going to follow through? I'm all for a good, unexpected plot twist, but not an irrelevant, backwards-moving one. That's all the current JSA book does, in my opinion. Move backwards.

But this comeback, more than Hal Jordan, more than Kara Zor-El, is just really bizarre. Nobody had been clamoring for the original Hourman. Sure, there may be some happy fans out there now that it's done, but it's just a real headscratcher as to why it was done in the first place. Rex was always great, conceptually. Maybe Johns has some really good Rex Tyler-centric stories that he just has to tell. I don't know, I haven't been following that closely for a while. But I just don't see why they couldn't be told using Rick or done in flashback.

Why can't heroes sometimes, y'know, stay dead? Would anybody really hold it against them?

[Shellhead]

Bringing Rex Tyler back was just egregiously weird and unnecessary. Johns had turned Rick into somebody potentially interesting (not that he actually WAS interesting, but he could have been) and then almost immediately outmoded him.

He also completely undermined his own subplot, to my mind. The timepoint thing where Rick and Rex only had 1 hour left to spend together could have been really poignant, but what we got instead was highly unsatisfying. Why set it up this way if you're not going to follow through? I'm all for a good, unexpected plot twist, but not an irrelevant, backwards-moving one. That's all the current JSA book does, in my opinion. Move backwards.

But this comeback, more than Hal Jordan, more than Kara Zor-El, is just really bizarre. Nobody had been clamoring for the original Hourman. Sure, there may be some happy fans out there now that it's done, but it's just a real headscratcher as to why it was done in the first place. Rex was always great, conceptually. Maybe Johns has some really good Rex Tyler-centric stories that he just has to tell. I don't know, I haven't been following that closely for a while. But I just don't see why they couldn't be told using Rick or done in flashback.

Why can't heroes sometimes, y'know, stay dead? Would anybody really hold it against them?

You've made a lot of great points regarding the Hourman fiasco. But at the end of the day, there is still this basic problem: Rex is just more interesting than Rick. Overall, DC and especially Geoff Johns have done a great job of gradually replacing golden age JSA members with worthy legacy characters, such as Mr. Terrific, Atom Smasher, and Stargirl. But Rick Tyler is just a very lackluster character. He started out annoying, back in Infinity, Inc., then became both tedious and yet a little bit interesting with the Miraclo addiction. Now, he's just a nice guy who happens to have super-powers. That's just nowhere near as interesting as his dad, who was a scientist who got addicted to the adrenaline rush of fighting crime and neglected his family.

[Doug Strange]

You've made a lot of great points regarding the Hourman fiasco. But at the end of the day, there is still this basic problem: Rex is just more interesting than Rick. Overall, DC and especially Geoff Johns have done a great job of gradually replacing golden age JSA members with worthy legacy characters, such as Mr. Terrific, Atom Smasher, and Stargirl. But Rick Tyler is just a very lackluster character. He started out annoying, back in Infinity, Inc., then became both tedious and yet a little bit interesting with the Miraclo addiction. Now, he's just a nice guy who happens to have super-powers. That's just nowhere near as interesting as his dad, who was a scientist who got addicted to the adrenaline rush of fighting crime and neglected his family.Of this there is no doubt. Rex is far, far, far more interesting than Rick.

But in the current context, they're both dull. If we want to do modern stories, I'm not sure Rex, with his entire 60+ year history, works. I'm just not into Golden Agers being miraculously de-aged and heroing today. It really only works for the original...Captain America. I like what Johns did with Johnny Thunder, and that's about it. GL, Flash, Hawkman, Wildcat...the way they're portrayed just strikes me as disingenuous and, honestly, disrespectful. (Though obviously not intentionally so.)

The truth is, I really don't dig on Johns' JSA at all. There are a few character concepts I like, but besides that, I can't find much to enjoy. The entire run hasn't really been about the story of the Justice Society. It's been about yesterday's stories about yesterday's Justice Society. One can argue that yesterday is what the JSA is all about, but I would passionately disagree.

Rex Tyler should have been allowed to rest in peace. Any Rex story Johns wanted to tell should have been adapted to fit in with the fact that he was dead.

I could tell LOTS of stories about "a scientist who got addicted to the adrenaline rush of fighting crime and neglected his family."

But "a scientist who got addicted to the adrenaline rush of fighting crime and neglected his family, got de-aged while battling a sorcerer, then trapped in Valhalla for 20+ years while time stood still, then freed, then killed by a time-travelling megalomaniac, then saved through the cooperative efforts of an android from the future and his own son's sacrifice, and is now trying to reconcile with his wife who for some reason is also not an octogenarian" leaves a little less room.

And of course you can (and, indeed, you must) leave some of these elements out when telling a modern Rex story, but any time you've got a man that was adventuring in the 40's, you have to leave some of it as a necessary backdrop to keep the internal consistency of the narrative. And it's still too much to have to bother with. Why would anyone want to tell a story about a character with this much baggage? Only a soap opera would continue using elements as klunky and complicated as these.

Same thing with Hal Jordan. Forgetting that I don't think Hal would even want to be Green Lantern after all of this, if you want to tell good Hal stories set in the here and now, the last 15+ years should necessarily be IGNORED. Anything else and you just have a lot of ridiculous continuity that serves no legitimate story-telling purpose. And GL will stand for "Guiding Light."

Hell, there are many, many other characters this goes for, too.

Bringing dead characters back is hack writing probably 95% of the time.

[Shellhead]

Bringing dead characters back is hack writing probably 95% of the time.

Despite my preference for Rex Tyler, I agreed with almost your entire latest post. I just disagree with the last line. I think that killing off good characters is more often the hack writing, because the writer is often going sacrificing too many potential good stories that could be told with that character, for the sake of some short-term attention and the accompanied sales boost. I admit that I can't offhand think of any great resurrection stories, but some of those returned characters were later used in great stories, which justified their return.

[Doug Strange]

Despite my preference for Rex Tyler, I agreed with almost your entire latest post. I just disagree with the last line. I think that killing off good characters is more often the hack writing, because the writer is often going sacrificing too many potential good stories that could be told with that character, for the sake of some short-term attention and the accompanied sales boost. I admit that I can't offhand think of any great resurrection stories, but some of those returned characters were later used in great stories, which justified their return.Heh. Maybe.

But maybe we can agree that the vast majority of both "death" and "resurrection" stories are hack writing.

[Shellhead]

Heh. Maybe.

But maybe we can agree that the vast majority of both "death" and "resurrection" stories are hack writing.

Agreed. I will even admit that there have been some excellent death stories, like X-Men #137, or Flash's death in Crisis on Infinite Earths.

[Lorendiac]

Yeah, Terra's been retconned, alas. it hasn't beene xplained byond the fact that DNA testing revealed she was in fact Tara Markov.

I figure... hypertime!

I've been thinking about that. As I understand it . . .

DNA testing of the Manhunter (Kirk DePaul) of the Power Company would have "proved" that he was Paul Kirk, one of two Manhunters of the Golden Age.

DNA testing of Madelyne Pryor would have "proved" that she was Jean Grey.

DNA testing of a nasty Flash with the face of Wally West who came from an alternate timeline some years ago would have "proved" he was Wally West.

DNA testing on the Newsboy Legion who hung out at Project Cadmus in the Superman books in the late 80s and early 90s would have "proved" they were the original Newsboy Legion, just as their buddy, the new Guardian, would have been "proved" to be the original Jim Harper Guardian of the 1940s.

I don't know if the X-Men ever did a DNA test on Joseph, the magnetically powered mutant who worked with them for awhile in the 1990s, but if they did, the test would have "proved" that he was Magneto, made younger again somehow!

In the "Reign of the Supermen" storyline, I believe DNA testing was performed on the Cyborg Superman that "proved" to the satisfaction of the President of the United States that he was, in fact, the original Superman!

But all of those hypothetical testers (and the people who tested the Cyborg Superman's DNA) would be Dead Wrong in claiming "Yes, this is the same person whose DNA we already had on file!"

So with that in mind, I think all we can say with confidence is: "Until somebody retcons it away, the Terra who popped up with the Team Titans has the same genetic code as the original Terra who died in 'The Judas Contract.'" In the DCU, that is far from being "proof" that the new Terra is actually the old Terra! ;)

[stealthwise]

Terra - Her death got me into college...

Huh? Did she leave you a trustfund or something?

[comic_lover]

Five Deaths to Leave Alone

1.Barry Allen As much as I dearly love this character,his death was almost perfect.He died as he lived,a hero.Wally West has come into his own as a hero,and in my eyes as The one and only Flash.

2. Extant Dumb idea for a character that flushed the original Hawk,Hank Hall, down the damn toliet in favor of a cardboard cutout villain.Some day I dearly hope they retcon Hank Hall as Extant and leave this character dead as hell.

3.Supergirl Any Supergirl really,but especially the cousin of Superman.Dumbed down Superman clone as a female character with a tedious personality, and lackluster potential.Leave this dumb character DEAD.

4.Johnny Quick Great character but with so many speedsters he remained redundant.Leave him dead.

5. Ch'p The Squirrel Green Lantern I'm all for bringing back the Green Lantern Corps,but for the Love of Pete,leave this lame ass character the roadkill he eventually became.What an idiotic idea.




5 Deaths that Begged to be Retconned

1.Hal Jordan Green Lantern The worst of use of one of the greatest characters DC has ever created.His death was a poorly written joke and needs to be forgotten.God Bless you Geoff Johns.

2. Donna Troy Explain to me why in the hell she died again ? Was there a reason behind that stupid story ?

3. Jim Corrigan as The Spectre The Spectre was never as interesting as he was bonded to Jim Corrigan.He remained as the Spectre for many, many, years and deserves to be back in the spotlight.The Spectre was the reason I was a fan of The JSA.

4. Sue Dibny Someone erase Identity Crisis completely please ? That horrendous piece of garbage only served to further egos of those who dont know how to correctly write comics to begin with.Stick to what you know,gentlemen.What did Ralph Dibny ever do to you ?

5. Ronnie Raymond/Professor Stein as Firestorm ! I have never truly hated a character as much as I absolutely HATE the new Firestorm.I have never disliked a character as much as I dislike Jason.I grew to like Kyle as Green Lantern,Conner as Green Arrow,and John as Green Lantern,but Jason Rusch is the worst replacement I have ever seen this side of Fate for Dr.Fate.They cannot cancel this character's book and kill this character fast enough to please me.May someone come to their senses and bring back the true Firestorm,Raymond/Stein,the way it ought to be.

[Slam_Bradley]

5 Deaths that Begged to be Retconned

3. Jim Corrigan as The Spectre The Spectre was never as interesting as he was bonded to Jim Corrigan.He remained as the Spectre for many, many, years and deserves to be back in the spotlight.The Spectre was the reason I was a fan of The JSA.



I'm not sure it would be humanly possible for me to disagree with something more. Jim Corrigan's moving on to his final rest in the last issue of the Ostrander/Mandrake Spectre was one of the few comic deaths that truly makes sense. To undo it would be close to blasphemy.

Corrigan is happy for the first time in his life. He's with Amy and Percival Popp. Leave the poor man alone.

[ducklord]

Huh? Did she leave you a trustfund or something?

Actually, it was something a bit more banal and fanboyish. I wrote about the climax of the Judas Contract in my application essay, which had rather generically asked me to scribble a few words about "A Turning Point In My Life." It wasn't, but to this day I'm positive that the sheer audacity of my chosen topic was what got me into my alma mater.

Or maybe it was the fact that I was a third generation legacy,
Mike.

[Smarty Jones]

"Bringing Rex Tyler back was just egregiously weird and unnecessary. Johns had turned Rick into somebody potentially interesting (not that he actually WAS interesting, but he could have been) and then almost immediately outmoded him."

I agree. This is an exercise of bringing back a character just for the sake of bringing back a character. The Justice Society of America already has enough of the original members back -- Sentinel, Jay Garrick, Wildcat and Hawkman -- and their relative youth and usefulness have been explained (not necessarily well, especially in the case of Hawkman).

In order to justify bringing back Rex Tyler, that may mean using him in some capacity -- which could come at the expense of his son, Rick. Rick Tyler may be an incomplete character, but that is usually because the character has not been given the development. Bringing in his old man likely will come at his expense.

[Doug Strange]

I agree. This is an exercise of bringing back a character just for the sake of bringing back a character. The Justice Society of America already has enough of the original members back -- Sentinel, Jay Garrick, Wildcat and Hawkman -- and their relative youth and usefulness have been explained (not necessarily well, especially in the case of Hawkman).

In order to justify bringing back Rex Tyler, that may mean using him in some capacity -- which could come at the expense of his son, Rick. Rick Tyler may be an incomplete character, but that is usually because the character has not been given the development. Bringing in his old man likely will come at his expense.Don't get me wrong -- I'm not really torn up inside about the loss of Rick...(though he could have potential).

It's just the absolute fecklessness of it.

Hourman was a great character, back in the day. But with all this bogus history added, he's completely diluted.

There's no rhyme or reason to it, especially considering the fact that nobody was actually asking for his return. It just looks like Johns can't let go. I'll need to see a big, important, and GOOD Rex-Tyler-in-the-21st-Century story before I can be swayed of that.

[Lorendiac]

Who should stay dead?

Everybody

Who should be brought back?

No one

I'd like to see an end put to this hoary cliché.

After reading that, I asked myself which DC death would have been the very hardest to avoid undoing, and the obvious answer was Superman's. DC can live without Barry and Jason and Hal and Hippolyta and Donna and Tara and the original Kara Zor-El and so forth, but it would have a tough time without one of its prime cash cows in other media, Superman.

Then I asked myself, what if Paradox's rule had been instituted immediately after the Death of Superman in late 1992. What would have happened? We still would gone through the "Reign of the Supermen" stuff with four different guys running around with the S on their chests, three of whom claimed to be Superman . . . and then I think we still would have seen a fifth claimant in a black bodysuit step forward to successfully claim the title.

It just wouldn't have been the "real" Superman. It would have been one of the following, probably:

1. The Real Clone of Superman, instead of that juvenile pretender who ended up being called Superboy.

2. The Superman of an alternate timeline.

3. The long-lost male second cousin of Kal-El, who just happened to look exactly like him, and who had also survived Krypton's explosion somehow. (Inside the bottled city of Kandor maybe - wasn't there a pre-Crisis character who fit that description? Quick online search reveals: Yes. Van-Zee, aka the original Nightwing, the Batman-equivalent of Kandor.)

Or maybe it would have been the "real" Superman! Here's another twist, stolen from the way Marvel handled a similar problem once.

4. They could always use the "Somebody Else's Body" excuse and reveal that the Superman who had died in a titanic battle with Doomsday was still dead, yes indeed . . . but he hadn't been the Original Superman! The Original Superman had been sleeping in suspended animation at the bottom of a river ever since a time years earlier when a disgustingly powerful alien entity had sealed him up and transformed itself into his physical duplicate . . .

If anything but #4 was used, the substitute would probably arrange to be publicly proclaimed as the true Superman come back. He might well end up reviving the identity of Clark Kent as well. (Just at a wild guess, get Matrix to impersonate Clark and then have "Superman" pull "him" out of a buried basement somewhere in front of TV cameras?)

After a few months, everyone would stop mentioning in dialogue any knowledge of the fact that this Superman was actually Superman Version 2.0, a replacement for the old one, and thus any new readers coming along later would honestly believe they were reading the adventures of the same old Superman as always!

[hangmanjury]

Deaths to be left alone:
1. Barry Allen - Wally's the Flash now, and Wally's doing a damn good job. Barry came full circle in his lifetime, and in the end he came back from the 30th century to die a hero. That's the way it should end.
2. Supergirl - I just loved the way she died, and while I do like this new Supergirl, they're not the same Supergirl, and that's good enough for me.
3. Ted Knight - again, his death had a sense of closure to it that made it perfect.
4. Jason Todd - being dead actually adds to the Bat-mythos more than his being alive.
5. Phoenix, Gwen Stacy, and the Green Goblin - 'cause I can't think of any more DC.

Five deaths that begged to be retconned.

1. Hal Jordan - I love Hal. He's my Green Lantern. I loved the way he died, but I just really wanted him back.
2. Hawkman - if he was ever dead... 'cause... seriously. What was that?
3. Oliver Queen - ...again. What was that?
4. Donna Troy and Lilith - because, again, what was that?
5. Jason Todd - the only way I'd have him come back is as a villain, because I think he'd be a great rogue. Other than that, I'd leave him alone.

[Smarty Jones]

"5. Supergirl #1 (Kara Zor-El, Linda Lee, Linda Danvers) in 'Crisis on Infinite Earths.' Although this one is trickier because first she died, second she was mourned, third she was erased from continuity so that she had never existed! So 'bringing her back' did not require specifically saying that you were retconning her death in Crisis - because she had no longer died in Crisis in the first place, had she? ;)"

"2. Supergirl - I just loved the way she died, and while I do like this new Supergirl, they're not the same Supergirl, and that's good enough for me."

This is something I never quite understood. Why does DC continue bringing in all these post-"Crisis" Supergirl types (to my knowledge, there have been three in recent years) when there is a female version Superman (or Supergirl) analogue -- namely, Power Girl of the Justice Society of America -- running around?

[Smarty Jones]

"Hourman was a great character, back in the day. But with all this bogus history added, he's completely diluted.

There's no rhyme or reason to it, especially considering the fact that nobody was actually asking for his return. It just looks like Johns can't let go. I'll need to see a big, important, and GOOD Rex-Tyler-in-the-21st-Century story before I can be swayed of that."

I agree with you. I have nothing against Rex Tyler, but I also do not see why he was needed to be brought back to life.

[The Shadow]

After reading that, I asked myself which DC death would have been the very hardest to avoid undoing, and the obvious answer was Superman's. DC can live without Barry and Jason and Hal and Hippolyta and Donna and Tara and the original Kara Zor-El and so forth, but it would have a tough time without one of its prime cash cows in other media, Superman.

Then I asked myself, what if Paradox's rule had been instituted immediately after the Death of Superman in late 1992. What would have happened? We still would gone through the "Reign of the Supermen" stuff with four different guys running around with the S on their chests, three of whom claimed to be Superman . . . and then I think we still would have seen a fifth claimant in a black bodysuit step forward to successfully claim the title.

It just wouldn't have been the "real" Superman. It would have been one of the following, probably:

1. The Real Clone of Superman, instead of that juvenile pretender who ended up being called Superboy.

2. The Superman of an alternate timeline.

3. The long-lost male second cousin of Kal-El, who just happened to look exactly like him, and who had also survived Krypton's explosion somehow. (Inside the bottled city of Kandor maybe - wasn't there a pre-Crisis character who fit that description? Quick online search reveals: Yes. Van-Zee, aka the original Nightwing, the Batman-equivalent of Kandor.)

Or maybe it would have been the "real" Superman! Here's another twist, stolen from the way Marvel handled a similar problem once.

4. They could always use the "Somebody Else's Body" excuse and reveal that the Superman who had died in a titanic battle with Doomsday was still dead, yes indeed . . . but he hadn't been the Original Superman! The Original Superman had been sleeping in suspended animation at the bottom of a river ever since a time years earlier when a disgustingly powerful alien entity had sealed him up and transformed itself into his physical duplicate . . .

If anything but #4 was used, the substitute would probably arrange to be publicly proclaimed as the true Superman come back. He might well end up reviving the identity of Clark Kent as well. (Just at a wild guess, get Matrix to impersonate Clark and then have "Superman" pull "him" out of a buried basement somewhere in front of TV cameras?)

After a few months, everyone would stop mentioning in dialogue any knowledge of the fact that this Superman was actually Superman Version 2.0, a replacement for the old one, and thus any new readers coming along later would honestly believe they were reading the adventures of the same old Superman as always!
DC sort of did the Marvel thing with Superman... he didn't REALLY die as we understand it. He's an alien and our machines couldn't detect any life... he essentially shut down, but didn't die.

SO they would thus get out of losiong a cash cow by saying "he didn't REALLY die!" (and they did) thus avoiding Paradox (andmy) opinion that dead means dead!

[comic_lover]

I'm not sure it would be humanly possible for me to disagree with something more. Jim Corrigan's moving on to his final rest in the last issue of the Ostrander/Mandrake Spectre was one of the few comic deaths that truly makes sense. To undo it would be close to blasphemy.

Corrigan is happy for the first time in his life. He's with Amy and Percival Popp. Leave the poor man alone. I can't agree. I have Spectre appearances from way back in the Golden Age of Comics,and he was only interesting when bonded to Corrigan.Just as Bruce Wayne is Batman,Superman is Clark Kent,and Oliver Queen is Green Arrow,Corrigan is The Spectre.Now it would be damn interesting to see the Spectre bonded to someone like the original Sandman....but hey,that makes too much sense for them to actually do it.I mean,an instant connection to The JSA and DC ? Makes way too much sense... :(

[fumetti]

About Barry Allen...

I'm not that passionate about bringing anybody back, or leaving anyone dead, or killing anyone off. Wait long enough and it'll all happen eventually.

I agree with many of the arguments to keep Barry out of the picture. It wouldn't really add much to bring him back to life in the current continuity. It would make Hal's return more interesting by giving him an old friend to talk to. But that's minor.

So here's what I *REALLY* want:

I want DC to do MORE stories about the pre-Crisis (1957-1986) era. Brave and the Bold (w/Barry and Hal) was a lot more fun for me than anything currently done with the Flash & GL characters. I don't care what format DC used, I just want to read some more stories with these Silver Age characters. I feel--here in the modern age--the same way comic fans felt in the early 60s about the Golden Age characters. I want new stories about my favorite old characters.

I buy these kinda books every chance I get. And I want to buy more. Not necessarily every month. But a special every now and again would be fun.

[Paradox]

Lorendiac makes me explain myself:

Then I asked myself, what if Paradox's rule had been instituted immediately after the Death of Superman in late 1992.

While I admire the analysis that followed, I should point out that I was merely being terse because it made the point better. Something like Superman's death...something that was never, ever actually intended to be permanent...would certainly have been exempt.

I'm more talking about someone pointlessly killing a character, and then some other writer just as pointlessly bringing them back later, or "revolving door to Hell" syndrome. Or worse, when someone brings back someone who had a very touching, poignent death story (such as Phoenix or Barry).

I hate it even worse when some writer gets it into their head that they need to kill off a bunch of "second-stringers" just to show how "badass" their villain is. I hate Eclipso #13 with a passion. Starman #38, too, despite being a huge fan of the series and James Robinson in general. Even Gruenwald's "Scourge" bit left a bad aftertaste of "was this really a good idea", even though I didn't really care much about the ones he wasted.

With more care about using death, not allowing just any johnny come lately to bring people back will-he nil-he, it just might make it actually mean something in these stories again.

[Paradox]

fumetti gets pointed:

About Barry Allen...

I'm not that passionate about bringing anybody back, or leaving anyone dead, or killing anyone off. Wait long enough and it'll all happen eventually.

I agree with many of the arguments to keep Barry out of the picture. It wouldn't really add much to bring him back to life in the current continuity. It would make Hal's return more interesting by giving him an old friend to talk to. But that's minor.

So here's what I *REALLY* want:

I want DC to do MORE stories about the pre-Crisis (1957-1986) era. Brave and the Bold (w/Barry and Hal) was a lot more fun for me than anything currently done with the Flash & GL characters. I don't care what format DC used, I just want to read some more stories with these Silver Age characters. I feel--here in the modern age--the same way comic fans felt in the early 60s about the Golden Age characters. I want new stories about my favorite old characters.

I buy these kinda books every chance I get. And I want to buy more. Not necessarily every month. But a special every now and again would be fun.

One would assume, then, that you'll be checking out the new "All-Star" titles that will be doing something very similar to that? That is, if you've heard about them. If not, they're probably worth your time to check out.

[sikkbones]

After reading that, I asked myself which DC death would have been the very hardest to avoid undoing, and the obvious answer was Superman's. DC can live without Barry and Jason and Hal and Hippolyta and Donna and Tara and the original Kara Zor-El and so forth, but it would have a tough time without one of its prime cash cows in other media, Superman.

Then I asked myself, what if Paradox's rule had been instituted immediately after the Death of Superman in late 1992. What would have happened? We still would gone through the "Reign of the Supermen" stuff with four different guys running around with the S on their chests, three of whom claimed to be Superman . . . and then I think we still would have seen a fifth claimant in a black bodysuit step forward to successfully claim the title.

It just wouldn't have been the "real" Superman. It would have been one of the following, probably:

1. The Real Clone of Superman, instead of that juvenile pretender who ended up being called Superboy.

2. The Superman of an alternate timeline.

3. The long-lost male second cousin of Kal-El, who just happened to look exactly like him, and who had also survived Krypton's explosion somehow. (Inside the bottled city of Kandor maybe - wasn't there a pre-Crisis character who fit that description? Quick online search reveals: Yes. Van-Zee, aka the original Nightwing, the Batman-equivalent of Kandor.)

Or maybe it would have been the "real" Superman! Here's another twist, stolen from the way Marvel handled a similar problem once.

4. They could always use the "Somebody Else's Body" excuse and reveal that the Superman who had died in a titanic battle with Doomsday was still dead, yes indeed . . . but he hadn't been the Original Superman! The Original Superman had been sleeping in suspended animation at the bottom of a river ever since a time years earlier when a disgustingly powerful alien entity had sealed him up and transformed itself into his physical duplicate . . .

If anything but #4 was used, the substitute would probably arrange to be publicly proclaimed as the true Superman come back. He might well end up reviving the identity of Clark Kent as well. (Just at a wild guess, get Matrix to impersonate Clark and then have "Superman" pull "him" out of a buried basement somewhere in front of TV cameras?)

After a few months, everyone would stop mentioning in dialogue any knowledge of the fact that this Superman was actually Superman Version 2.0, a replacement for the old one, and thus any new readers coming along later would honestly believe they were reading the adventures of the same old Superman as always!


5. have the golden age superman emerg from limbo looking older and battle scarred...

this actually could have worked...

a character whos death needs to be retconned... john henry irons... the closest the world will ever get to see a black superman.

[sikkbones]

This is something I never quite understood. Why does DC continue bringing in all these post-"Crisis" Supergirl types (to my knowledge, there have been three in recent years) when there is a female version Superman (or Supergirl) analogue -- namely, Power Girl of the Justice Society of America -- running around?


power girl is the woman without a past in DC remeber?