My Life with Asperger's Syndrome... [Archive]

The Beast Of Yucca Flats

03-15-2005, 10:39 AM

I don't think I've ever really talked about this in great detail around here, but it's true. I have Asperger's Syndrome, a high-functioning form of autism (this is because autism is usually referred to as a spectrum disorder). For those who aren't totally in the know, here's some background info: Asperger's was first discovered in 1944 by a European doctor named Hans Asperger, who documented that some otherwise seemingly normal individuals posessed autistic characteristics in many of their behaviors. Asperger's is characterized by most of the following symptoms: a withdrawl from most any kind of social relationship, a focused & driven interest in a very specific area (mine happens to be comics; that's why I'm here on forums like these), an inability to make eye contact when speaking, etc. You can find more information here, at any of these sites & pages:

http://www.autism.org/asperger.html
http://www.aspergerssyndrome.org/
http://www.udel.edu/bkirby/asperger/aswhatisit.html

If you're wondering why I'm posting this now, it's because it's something I've had to face much more than ever before in my life. This is for a few reasons. I'll list them in no particular order: For one, I've been asked about it with a much higher frequency in other areas (at home, online) by curious questioners. And some few questions that I don't have the answers to have driven me to look for answers, in places such as the above-posted links. Another reason is an article relating to autism civil rights that I've read in my local paper. I'll get to that in much more detail a bit later. The main, #1 reason is that I've had to deal with how Asperger's is going to affect my future as an adult. This is primarily related to my past inability to find a job. You see, I entered a job-training program a while back called Vocational Rehab, and they've been representing me in the search for employement. Some of you may recall (and I stress MAY) that I went offline here from a long stretch from mid-September to early November. Well, in the possibility you're actually wondering where I went, it's because I was devoting most of my energies to Vocational Rehab at that time. I didn't mention it at the time because I still felt like too much of a noob to make this big deal about it here at the YABS forum (I made a much bigger deal about it on the DC Comics forums, as I've been there much longer). Anyway, I probably should have mentioned it then, and I apologize for not saying something sooner. As for how Asperger's has affected my life, I've been much more eccentric in my behaviors & daily life-- which is another common symptom of the condition-- due to it. I sleep with a fan on 365 days a year, for one example. Another is that I often talk to myself, when I feel no one's paying attention. Yet another eccentricity is my appearence. I look pretty much like I just finished a photo shoot for "Clean Shaven Monthly" with Alan Moore. My hair's continued growth can be attributed to one simple fact: I cannot be bothered to shave or get a haircut (luckily, no one seems to care in THIS fanbase). Another side effect is my inability to grasp mathematics & broad strokes in giving instructions (especially oral instructions). The only real reason I passed math growing up was because I eventually memorized the answers to the problems I was given most of the time (For example, I knew that 12x12 equaled 144, but I didn't know WHY it did). And the broad strokes-in-instructions thing is one of the reasons I can't find a job to this day.

[CONTINUED]

The Beast Of Yucca Flats

03-15-2005, 11:15 AM

Another reason is my inability to start and maintain social contact/relationships (another big hurdle for employment, too). This is considered to be the big, #1 kicker for the whole Asperger's range of symptoms. I currently have about 2 or 3 friends right now who either work at or visit my local comic shop, and I don't even keep in semi-regular contact with all of them (I e-mail one of them pretty often, though). Still, it's an improvement over my childhood friends, at least so far. Because as for friends I had growing up-- and there were a few-- I can't think of any that I've heard from at all in the last 6 or 7 years. In a nutshell, friendships didn't last when it came to my childhood. Friends were just one of those things that appeared-- miraculously sometimes-- and then they left. They didn't stay. This is primarily because my Asperger's began to shine more & more like a becon with continuing age. As I got older, I realized that I felt better being alone more & more, and that left less & less room for regular friendships. Plus, I've found-- with the help of message boards like this and e-mail-- that I seem to deal with other people much better most of the time as text on a screen. Not so much in person. I probably couldn't give say... Gail or Brian K. Vaughan half the amount of gushing praise I give them online to them in person. This is pretty much how Asperger's has affected me throughout my life. Reading much of this, you'd probably think that I'm anxiously awaiting the day when science will rid me of my Asperger's forever with a cure. But that's not really true. In all honesty, I live a mostly happy & satisfying existence with a loving family, a small but warm & patient group of friends, and a life that may be dull & uneventful at times-- but it's still a decent life, and it's mine. Which leads me to the contents of that newspaper article I mentioned. I found it in the Life, etc. section of my local paper one day. I usually tend to think that the "stories" in Life, etc. section are nothing more than cheap & manipulative emotional pandering, but this one stood out. I'd always been kind of dicey about an "autism cure", but I'd never known there was a whole movement out there opposed to it. Basically, there's a school that teaches the idea that autism-- in all it's forms-- is a different wiring of the brain as opposed to a disease. TEACCH, a local organization devoted to autism, also focuses on education rather than a "cure." Places like this school & TEACCH believe that many autism-related side-effects like tics, rocking, pacing, & talking to oneself are ways of communicating, rather than bad habits to be stamped out. Like for example, an autistic child screaming in a supermarket because of the crushing sensory overload of crowds & floresceunt lights. Some places train autistics to repress these behaviors, which TEACCH is opposed to on grounds that such "treatment" counts as repression and/or abuse. This is why I will never support a "cure" for autism of any kind, no matter how severe it is.

[CONTINUED]

StoneGold

03-15-2005, 11:17 AM

So ironic though that this particular affliction sounds so much like Assburger.

The Beast Of Yucca Flats

03-15-2005, 11:45 AM

My mother was approached by educators & counselors when I was growing up to repress my own behaviors. She opposed this because-- in her own words-- "if my son can't feel free in his own house, where can he?" And this is where the 'education' part comes in. I just think it ultimately does society more good to just simply LEARN to accept people like me and what we could possibly bring to the human table (some believe that Henry Cavendish, the man who discovered hydrogen particles, may have been autistic in some form). How could this be accomplished with a "cure?" Most believe that a cure will ultimately be a genetic test that'll prevent babies with autism of any kind from being born. Imagine that. Just imagine. If we can't tolerate people with something like autism or Asperger's, what're the odds, say... gays will ever get truly passed by society? Why live with one group if you're incapable of living with another? Why face something when you can just get rid of it? Getting rid of autism or Asperger's may sound pretty self-contained in terms of side-effects to some of you out there, but come on, something that large is going to have some kind of ripple effect on the rest of humanity. First off, you're fucking with our genepool here. I'm not saying that the world will come to an end the day after a "cure" for autism is found, but you're still giving the people who run this world one more victory. That's yet one more UNGODLY level of power that they don't need. Possibly the biggest one of all, in fact. Because if they have power over our genome, where will it really end? Anyone with some dumbass opinion or another on a specific group of humanity could rise to power and then do something about THAT group, too. And why not? They'd certainly have the power to do so, then, wouldn't they? And that's my point: if a "cure" for autism comes, is an eventual "cure" for homosexuality really that out of the question, too? Does it really seem that far-fetched now? So once again, I will never support any cure for autism, regardless of how light or severe that case of autism is. Because other than giving uptight parents or teachers who want "treatment" for their own autistic kids & the people who run the world yet more power, I don't really see who it'd serve. I want the world to be changed because I think that'd do humanity more good than some magic "antidote." I don't want humanity to lose it's... well, humanity. I have a right to exist the way I am just as much as any of you do. Thank you all for your time, and I'll try and find more links if you'd like more information on the subject.

Crowley

03-15-2005, 12:45 PM

I taught kids with ADD, ADHD and Aspergers (yes it's very unfortunately named)

I don't understand what you're going though dealing with it, but I do understand the difficulties you may face with social interaction and I think it's very admirable of you to speak out.

TCJohnson

03-15-2005, 01:50 PM

Weetomuncher

03-15-2005, 04:50 PM

I'm a college educated, 25 year old guy who is unemployed (and has been for most of the last 7 years) purely because I suffer badly from anxiety and I have suffered from depression. I can't concentrate at interviews and I rarely make any sense because I'm so nervous.

I have a good work record and I can get on well with people but I do have a 'settling in' period where I clearly don't fit in. If you think of the 'misfit' character in The Breakfast Club you're almost there.

I eventually blend into the group but I'm generally very different from other people. I don't drink, I'm an avid reader and I'm very politically minded. I tend to get on better with mature, educated people and have trouble communicating with people my own age.

I get really angry that I've applied for a load of jobs I could do with my eyes shut and been turned down because of my nerves at the interview, If they had a word with one of my old bosses, I'm sure they'd be told that I'm a reliable and well skilled worker but they only see a nervous wreck who couldn't deal with secretarial/clerical work (which is the field I normally work in) and that isn't the case. I can type vryquikly and I'm really solid on phones but it obviously doesn't carry through in person, I recently did a call centre course at college which should have led to a job at one of the local call centres.

Most of the class got jobs at the poorer of the two local call centres but I messed up my interview and didn't get the job. I was one of about three who managed to get to the final interview for the better option (which involved going through two telephone interviews and a visit to the centre where they took all your details) and it looked like I was going to get the job but everything went wrong at the final interview and I didn't get the job (the vast majority of people who get that far get the job) and I just couldn't believe it as I flew through the college course and already had phone experience.

I've decided to set up my own business, doing little IT jobs for local companies, mainly stuff like databases and DTP work and I'll be working from home. I'm kinda worried about getting things organised as I hate having to approach people I don't know as I get nervous as hell but I know I've no other option to get things done.

I don't even own a PC at the moment as my parents are disabled and I wouldn't ask them as I try to help them out as much as I can on my meagre funds. I have to rely on an awful Cable TV internet system (80Mhz RISC PC based system!) to even access the net,

I'm going to the government backed 'Business Gateway' to get funding for the project although my Dad insisted on helping out even though he isn't well off due to being a disabled pensioner. I feel sorry I can't help him out more as he was an excellent carpenter and engineer before he took a sudden heart attack. He is ill almost constantly now and needs my help when he goes out,

I get really frustrated that people can't see though my facade to see the years of skills and knowledge I've built up.

weetO

blast_front

03-15-2005, 05:53 PM

Eh, I've been diagnosed as a potential Asperger's case, but you know what? It doesn't matter. If my brain is wired so that my "innocuous" comments come off sounding like insults or put-downs to others, that's my hurdle to overcome. Life doesn't grade on a scale (unless you're G.W. Bush), and I never saw the point of self-victimization.

Bear in mind this is my personal view, and not my mandate on how others should live, okay?

Pixies Chick

03-15-2005, 07:39 PM

...I want the world to be changed because I think that'd do humanity more good than some magic "antidote." I don't want humanity to lose it's... well, humanity. I have a right to exist the way I am just as much as any of you do. ...

Very beautifully said. I don't have anything original to add, but I think George Kelly would agree with you.
"When Athens was not very far away, Theseus met with a terrible man called Procrustes, who had a house in a lonely place. When he saw a traveler, Procrustes always invited him into his house and offered him food and drink and rest. But no one left his house alive.

"In the house, Procrustes had an iron bed. He said that it just fitted anyone who lay on it. It certainly did. For, as soon as the traveler fell asleep on the bed, iron arms came down and held him fast to the bed. Then if the stranger was longer than the bed, Procrustes cut off his legs with a big sharp knife; if he was shorter than the bed, the bad man pulled the traveler's legs so hard to fit the length that the poor man was soon dead."
http://sookmyung.ac.kr/~u9911620/eng/story10.htm

From "Hostility" by George Kelly:
I am sure that Stretch [Procrustes] was not really out to hurt people. The fact that his guests always seemed to have such a bad time of it was just one of those unfortunate things that so often seem to happen in spite of everything you do to make people comfortable.

Because he happened to be hostile, Stretch was one of those unlucky souls in this world whose fate it is to be grossly misunderstood. Why? In the first place he was genuinely interested in people. I mean genuinely! He had bought this little chicken ranch, or whatever it was, with the express purpose of setting up a kind of wayside motel where travellers who found themselves in this lonely spot at nightfall could be assured of some old-fashioned hospitality. Moreover, he had in mind that he would give them their supper and their lodging free. Breakfast, too, if they happened to want it! He was as thoughtful as that.

Stretch, like most hostile people, had a pretty clear idea of how guests should be treated...

In fact, the poor man would get himself so worked up over his social role as a host that later, back in his own room and long after his guest was comfortably asleep, he would be tossing and turning , worrying himself sick over the possibility that there might be some flaw in his hospitality. Was his guest comfortable or not? Had he used the dainty guest towels in the bathroom? And the guest bed - that was what worried him most. Did it fit? Maybe he was a little too tall for it; maybe a little too short - which was it? Throughout the restless night the thoughts nagged and mounted until they were unbearable.

You can guess what happened, if you do not already know. In the wee hours of the morning Stretch would tiptoe to the door of the guest room, open it ever so softly, and peek in, just to make sure. You can also guess what he saw and what utter consternation seized him at finding his guest either too short or too long - never a perfect fit. And now, knowing how it was that Stretch was trying so hard to be a perfect host, it is quite easy to see that next he simply had to do what he did...

It may be helpful to see hostility in the flesh. Before we illustrate in terms of case material, however, let us review the essential features of hostility from the standpoint of the psychology of personal constructs.

1. A person construes human nature in his own way.

2. He makes social predictions on the basis of this constructions.

3. To set the stage they must be crucial predictions; that is to say, he must have wagered more on them than he can afford to lose - more of his construct system, that is.

4. He turns up invalidating evidence. It is clear that he was wrong about people. He can no longer ignore the fact.

5. Moreover, he was overwhelmingly wrong - basically wrong.

6. In the face of the harsh facts he can, of course, revise his outlook. But the revision would shake him so deeply that he is reluctant to undertake it.

7. Alternatively, he could let matters ride - say to himself, "So I just don't understand people very well." But this too is an alternative he is reluctant to choose.

8. Finally, he can close his eyes to reality and attempt to make people fit the construct bed his system provides. This is the hostile choice.

Michael P

03-15-2005, 07:58 PM

palaeomerus

03-15-2005, 08:15 PM

I have problems with depression though not the "sad" kind so much anymore. I do have the "total lack of momentum and ambition" kind where if I don't force my self to get up, shower, and go to work every morning I could quite possibly sit home by myself in the same clothes for three months and hardly be aware of how much time has passed during those three months. Of course I have been going to work for thirteen years now but I am very much aware of my "lay down and die" tendencies.

To keep moving I force myself to pursue hobbies and activities that seem to serve as strong distractions from my tendencies towards personal entropy. Once the novelty of my distraction wears off I move on the the next hobby so through out a year I might spend a month playing video games, a month scuplting, a month trying to learn to program simple apps in Python, a month following politics, a month reading and watching TV, a month hiking around etc. That's not to say that I don't do all these things in moderation all year but I definately focus on one thing for about a month or two and then move on in a sort of cycle. This can get expensive so I have to set a sort of project budget for my activities.

I wonder sometimes if I am not an Asperger as well. My writing often seems to be long winded rambling and rather full of errors indiciating a malfunctioning thought process and I do often end up insulting people when I have no intention of doing so(in fact I am often pretty fond of the person and have a high opinion of him or her). I feel as if by making some observation that I am showing the person that I am paying attention to them and aware of their "details". They often seem to assume that I am disapproving contemptuous or hyper critical in my motive. I am often amazed at the people who think that I hate them or think little of them when the opposite is often true. Usually in professional situations I keep contact with others to a very minimal basic level and then focus entirely on the business at hand.

Also I do have some trouble looking people in the yes when I talk to them. I can look them in the eyes or talk but doing both seems to overload the brain and I begin to umm an uh and babble. It's also hard to listen while looking at someone's eyes. It's distracting I guess. Looking people I like or at least am not having trouble with in the eyes seems silly almost like I am challenging them. Now if I get MAD at someone then I'll stare right at them and have no troubles.

I don't really feel betrayed by the world or disapointed in humanity anymore. The whole grandiose thing has pretty much gone away. I no longer view myself as the worst most guilty sh*tpile who ever lived simply because I am not the best of all saints and I have to come to the realization that I am a rather average shmuck with a few handy talents and a reasonable amount of good to contribute (slightly soiled by some weaknesses and bad habits much like the nest guy's). I am a dull mundanity stuffed into a pair of cheap Old Navy jeans and a grey fleece shirt.

And that's... okay.

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0440504708.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

Zack

03-15-2005, 08:31 PM

I've often wondered if I have Asperger's. I haven't sought to get myself diagnosed for various reasons.

Sounds like you have some of my idiosyncracies -- when I'm alone, I sometimes talk to myself, usually over-analyzing some pop-cultural thing or pretending I'm being interviewed about whatever idea I'm currently working on. And pretty much the only reason I shave/get a haircut is because I lived with my parents for too long, and they are all about doing that regularly.

As far as the real world goes -- I've found I have to train myself to get through a lot of situations. At 25, I'm finally in my first real job, but there's a lot of stuff that's been hard for me. I was too nervous to drive for years, my dates have been years apart...I have obsessive tendencies that freak even other comic fans out.

It's also weird with my writing, because I have the hardest time writing scenes that other people would find easy...conversations between friends, people doing stuff at their jobs, that sort of thing. Plus I've a habit of rewriting myself into a brick wall.

The thing of it is, even though it's taken me a lot longer to do things that it does for most people, I have gotten a lot of them done. It just seems to be like Edison said about how long it took for him to invent the lightbulb -- "I've just found ten thousand ways that don't work." It's possible to succeed, but you have to have the energy to keep failing.

(And I'm not saying I'm the poster child for success, but I sure as hell sat through enough shitty job interviews before getting a gig I really like...)

Anyway -- good luck with everything. I know how frustrating things must be for you, but they can definitely get better.

Zack Smith

Buzz Maverik

03-15-2005, 09:16 PM

Someone I love was misdiagnosed as having Aspbergers simply because he liked to watch spinning objects (who the hell doesn't?) and the psychiatrist couldn't think outside the box. He was prescribed Respiradol, a drug that caused huge weight gain, drooling, slurred speech and made him withdrawn, non-verbal, etc.

Once he was off the drug, a psychotherapist recommended that he be tested for Sensory Integration Dysfunction (aka Sensory Integration Disorder). We have more than five senses, many of them are internal. SI is a condition of the central nervous system. Too often, the nervous system is not considered during a diagnosis and the practicioner goes directly for the brain. An SI person's nervous system works differently than other people's. A light touch is perceived as a threat to their lives. They can feel as though they will fly off the earth at any second. It has been described as feeling as though you're trapped on a rollercoaster 24 hours a day. They must use their whole bodies to experience something, so if they hug you, they want to crush you. Or they may be unable to walk across wet grass. Some SI people are bouncing off the walls, while others are listless. It is called a snowflake disorder because no two cases are exactly alike.

Perhaps the most insidious thing about this condition is that many physicians will not acknowledge its' existence because it was not discovered by an MD. It was discovered by an Occupational Therapist. The AMA is very arrogant. SI is not treated with a drug, but through Occupational Therapy. Simply, it is treated through theraputic movement through space. Actually, maybe that's not so simple.

A great deal of SI is misdiagnosed hyperactivity, ADHD, ADD, ODD, autism and Aspbergers. The horrible thing is that drug treatment for SI can be disastrous.

Cody H

03-15-2005, 09:17 PM

Thanks for sharing Beast, wish you luck with everything that's going on. I'm somewhat familiar with Aspergers but your account certainly puts things in perspective much better than any textbook or website. So thanks again for sharing that.

PatrickG

03-16-2005, 06:21 AM

I've faced the possibility of an Asperger's diagnosis before.

I have around 90 of the 100 or so symptoms. I've been misdiagnosed with all the common things prior to the A.S. probability coming up. I have trouble understanding the social constructs of conversation and so I interrupt people because I have no clue when is or isn't the appropriate time to jump in. I have little sensitivity to cold. I have two or three intense interests. Certain everyday mechanical sounds force me to leave a room. I've been nicknamed "the little professor" or "assistant professor" by teachers at five or six different schools who never met eachother, which is a common nickname for A.S. kids. I lose time. I have VERY little short term memory (I lose things inside a four foot cubicle space as soon as I set them down; I spend ten or fifteen minutes looking for something in my hand) but EXECELLENT long term memory (I easily and vividly remember my life dating back to before I was a year old, before I could talk or crawl). I have trouble sleeping at night. It drives me crazy when people totally ignore the speed limit or don't play by the rules. I trust people at first sight and feel betrayed when they don't live up to my standards.

I'm fairly certain that I've never scored below the 97th percentile on any verbal aptitude test. I know that I typically score in the 99th percentile. I have a perfect SAT verbal and a perfect Regents' score. I get frustrated with the way people talk because I want to speak slowly and use precise words while most people want to speak quickly and use imprecise words.

Thing is, I'm not like the textbook examples --- like the guy who's interested in trains so he steals one. I have some idea of how the world works, it's just frustrating and hard to apply to daily life. I wish people just lived by rules and codes that I could understand, that were logical and rooted in some kind of ethics.

I'm not sure what the advantage of getting diagnosed with A.S. is. I don't want to be medicated out of it. There are actually doctors out there who imagine A.S. as some kind of evolutionary safeguard (to maintain variety in the population) or even the next step. Dig around through the literature and you'll find psychologists imagining utopias where everyone has A.S.

Also, while I recognize that networking occasionally with A.S. people could be beneficial, I've also heard how BAD an idea it can be to pair them off. Some people with A.S. would want to kill eachother if you forced them to spend an hour in the same room. Overall, it does seem productive towards friendships but what really terrifies me is the idea that people would keep trying to set me up with nice A.S. girls.

Living with A.S. makes relationships difficult, period. Many or most A.S. people don't lose their virginity until in their 30s unless they're taken advantage of. Dating is hard. Attraction is this disorienting force that's hard to deal with or communicate. People with A.S. tend to be very faithful and very monogamous but have little ability to initiate a relationship.

I haven't had a date in two years. I've never had a girlfriend and it's not for lack of wanting to date.

Now... It seems to me that there's a societal tendancy to pair off people with dysfunctions together. Trouble is, two people with A.S. are virtually incapable of making a relationship work. I think the divorce rate is close to 100% for known A.S. couples and the few that have made it work suggest that no one with A.S. should even consider marrying another A.S. person. A.S. people need life partners who are socially savvy people. A.S. people have close to a 0% divorce rate with non-afflicted partners, I think.

It's much harder for men also. A.S. tends to promote submissive or suppressable behavior that's more acceptable in women. An A.S. man is rarely ever seen as any kind of "alpha male". So sociological stereotypes make it much more acceptable to be an A.S. woman. It's more acceptable in our society for women to retain their virginity than it is for men.

So, I don't know if I want diagnosed. People would expect me to pair off with an A.S. partner. I'd be separated. Segregated. People would want to treat the way my brain is wired as a disorder. Medicate me. Give me special treatment.

The one thing that lingers at the back of my mind suggested I should get diagnosed is a silly, irrational fear. I lose time. It's not that I'm blacking out or suppressing memories. Sometimes, I'm just absorbed into my thoughts and my response to the outside world slows down like a computer running too many programs. I'll spend forty five minutes brushing my teeth and changing clothes because I'm in my head and I lose track of time.

I'm worried, on some level that despite availible research, I may slip into that state of mind and become a full-fledged austistic. That thought scares me.

roguespirit

03-16-2005, 08:02 AM

Just wondered if any of you with aspergers have read this book (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/glance/-/books/0099450259/026-0472805-5086043). I thought it was a really good book that did a decent job of educating those such as me as to the internal 'wiring' of a child with asperger's.

However I would love the opinion of someone who know's what it is like first hand to be able to tell me how close it is in relality.

blast_front

03-16-2005, 08:04 AM

The one thing that lingers at the back of my mind suggested I should get diagnosed is a silly, irrational fear. I lose time. It's not that I'm blacking out or suppressing memories. Sometimes, I'm just absorbed into my thoughts and my response to the outside world slows down like a computer running too many programs. I'll spend forty five minutes brushing my teeth and changing clothes because I'm in my head and I lose track of time.

I'm worried, on some level that despite availible research, I may slip into that state of mind and become a full-fledged austistic. That thought scares me.

Yeah, Patrick, those "fugue trances" (as I like to call them) have been a major problem for me, as well. They drive my wife nuts, as I tend to drop out of real time in the middle of a sentence to ponder some esoteric bit of info. What drives her even crazier is how, while I seem to be ignoring her, I can parrot back everything she says to me verbatim while I'm trancing.

Which brings me to my other point. Don't get discouraged on the relationship front, as difficult as things may seem. Believe it or not, there are women out there willing to put up with these kinds of quirks. Heck, I found one, and being a potential Asperger's case is only a small component of my personality "problems". :D

(Odd use of quotation marks (c) Jack Kirby Estate)

The Beast Of Yucca Flats

03-16-2005, 09:42 AM

Maybe I know what you are going through, maybe not. I have chronic depression, social anxiety and ADD.

I have a question for you but...You have a higher functioning form of autism. What about people who are so autistic they cannont communicate with the rest of the world at all. Wouldn't you want to find a cure for them? I am just asking, not passing any judgement.

That's actually a pretty good question, and I'm not at all mad that you asked it. But... the answer is still no. Because we've put enough emphasis on science taking care of everything for us over the decades. It robs us of our humanity. Giving care for these people you mentioned doesn't have to include a "cure." It may make more sense for something like AIDS or cancer, but an autism "cure" is still basically playing God. If we really say that humans aren't perfect, we ultimately have to face what that statement REALLY means. We can't move forward into any kind of viable future until we learn to live with ourselves and our own human limitations.

The Xenos

03-16-2005, 09:51 AM

Wow. it wasn't until recently that I heard about Asperger's Syndrome. I'd been wondering what some of the many problems I have could be. Bipolar maybe, social anxiety or definately some anxiety disorder, defiantely some form of depression, or mayve even some light form of autism as I tend to be too spacy and in my own world at times. Then in a class a year or so ago, I heard about Asperger's but wasn't sure.

A number of symptons you've mentioned here sound deginately familiar. Of course, who knows if it's that, other thigns, or a combination of them.

"withdrawl from most any kind of social relationship, a focused & driven interest in a very specific area (mine happens to be comics; that's why I'm here on forums like these), an inability to make eye contact when speaking" " inability to start and maintain social contact/relationship"

Widthdrawn should be my middle name. I know it hurt my last relationship. Still don't know which one of us was more messed up, but I had my fair share of problems. Haven't heard from her in a while and just a few hours ago had one hell of a nightmare about what could have happened to her like I sometimes do. Acutally, to be honest, she told me she was diagnosed bipolar and some of her problems. It scared me mostly because I was wondering that about myself and Lord knows if I couldn't help myself, how could I help her?

Then again I haven't gotten diagnosed with anything. Have only seen a physical doctor and checked stuff like iron levels in my blood or lymphnode problems. They've checked out fine. I really need to see a psychologist. My doctor gave me a number to call, but I just haven't.

Of course with the whole backing away from social contact even from childhood, I know seeking help isn't the esiest thing to do. Right now I've been somewhat functional. Been taking college classes, even just got a simple job swiping IDs to let students into the dorms. I should find a serious CO-OP job trhough my school, but I've been avoiding my advisor. Even in classes I barely talk to anyone. I think thanks to my roomate as well as the anime club I help him run, I get out and see people more than I normally would. Thank God for him. I'm still quite a recluse, my friends even comment how much I stay in my room, but I do get out more than usual thanks to them.

Oh yeah, definately sensative to eye contact. After falling in love with that last girl and looking into her eyes so much and just feeling the power of it, I'm even more sensative than I was before. Hell, even became obsessed with wearing sunglassses all the time for a while. Heh, might be OCD or OCPD (if you belive in personality disorcers) channeling through Asperger's.

Anyway, I need to showing and finish a lab right now. Just woke up and feeling crappy from a headache and a head cold.

So thank you, Beast, for starting this and sharing yourself with us. I know it's made me think about it and maybe others with it or might have it or those who know people with it will also give it some extra thought now.

-Xenos

The Xenos

03-16-2005, 10:16 AM

Oh yeah, the whole talking to myself thing scares me sometimes too. I notice I often start mubling to myself even in public. Was just doing that on the way to the shower. PLus, I dunno how this plays in, maybe more anxiety, but I'm a chronic fingernail biter, especially when I'm in public and nervous.

-Xenos

The Xenos

03-16-2005, 10:18 AM

It may make more sense for something like AIDS or cancer, but an autism "cure" is still basically playing God. If we really say that humans aren't perfect, we ultimately have to face what that statement REALLY means. We can't move forward into any kind of viable future until we learn to live with ourselves and our own human limitations.

Somewhat off topic, but that reminds me of last week's South Park about transgender operations. Myabe people should be more accepting to the body and mind God gave them and quit trying to change themselves. Of course you should learn how to work and deal with whatever you have.

-Xenos

PatrickG

03-16-2005, 10:38 AM

Normally, I'd be skeptical about this many cases so close together in a community...

But this is a comics board. Check out a model car message board or a quantum physics message board and you'd find a disproportionate number too.

Maybe it's my outlook on the whole thing but my refusal to get diagnosis is partly my refusal to view this as a "problem". Yes, there are challenges associated with it.

There are challenges associated with winning the lottery or owning a red sports car too.

As for curing less functional levels of autism, I'm undecided. Do we really know that our world is so much better experienced the way most people do? Look at it. War. Killing. Deception.

I think it would be nice if we could temporarily "cure" the autism and offer the individual a choice, without condemning the option of returning to their previous state.

I mentioned that I was afraid of slipping into a "lower functioning" state. That's true. I have to admit that I sometimes imagine it would be nice if I could do that for months or years and come back. Imagine what revolutionary ideas a person could have! How much pent up desire they'd have to express them!

Autism isn't the only issue that brings forth these challenges. I think Joe Kelly has something called parasomnia where he remains in REM for the first hour or so after we wakes up. So while he's eating his cereal, Hitler's across the table doing a broadway showtune and his third grade class is laughing at him. He knows it's not real. It's not that he hallcinates it. But his brain is still dreaming. That's my understanding.

I kinda wish I could experience that for a day.

And I'm so magnetically drawn towards OCD people. The things they notice like uneven levels of steps or tilted paintings. The eye for detail! The observations they make about the efficiency of things!

And mildly bi-polar or manic people make such great friends! The adventures they'll talk people into! Breaking into a crypt! Organizing money making schemes!

I really think there is something to take pleasure in with every so-called illness. As long as nobody dies or gets injured or spends weeks suffering, there's a kind of upside to so many of these things. I'm really against the notion of curing any kind of mental illness. Coping? Sure. Coping with medication? If there's no better choice, sure. But curing seems to me to be a pompous claim.

The Beast Of Yucca Flats

03-16-2005, 10:49 AM

Trench

03-16-2005, 10:51 AM

This thread has been rather fascinating for many a reason and I hate to sidetrack it but...

Somewhat off topic, but that reminds me of last week's South Park about transgender operations. Myabe people should be more accepting to the body and mind God gave them and quit trying to change themselves. Of course you should learn how to work and deal with whatever you have.

uh... having a father that is a MTF (Male to Female) transexual, I can imperatively say that it's not the same thing at all. And transgender operations are in fact VERY neccessary for a vast majority of trans people...

As for the actual topic, I've always found Asperger's very interesting. The vast majority of my friends could easily be seen to have borderline tendencies, as do I. The list Patrick G listed could easily describe me an most of my my friends, many of whom are self-professed geeks. I'm notoriously terrible picking up on social cues and honestly have no frigging clue what people are going on about if they try to explain them to me.

I remember reading that there was a high incidence of Asperger's in Silicon Valley, where many engineers and programers and the like married and had children with Asperger's as well...

I don't feel comfortable saying I have it, cause well... I may not. It may just be the way I was socialized and that was reinforced by the rather large geek collective we have in Chicago. Apparently, it's terrifying to others when you have a group of twenty men and women babbling about role-playing, zombies, and Buffy- but it's extremely comforting to me, and to us.

Kudos to all of you guys for your honesty and courage.

Weetomuncher

03-16-2005, 04:24 PM

I don't actually have Asperger's (that I know of) but I do see some similarities to my own anxiety/depression.

I tend to worry about everything and can't cope when things go wrong. When I was in primary school I was totally different from the other kids, I was taking weeks of work home at night and finishing it at night a couple of days later and I was a magnet for information but I always found it difficult to associate with other kids. I often found the lessons at school distracting as the class went over things that I already understood.

I didn't do so well at secondary school because I was constantly picked on by kids from the rougher quarters because I didn't fit in to their view of the world - well that and the fact that I constantly stood up for myself and the 'little guys' who were picked on. I have never been able to accept injustice and I tend to be hot headed so I was constantly getting into trouble for standing up to the real bad guys in the school.

I left school after my exams to go to college for three years (completing two courses in Computer Applications and another couple of short courses) and I did pretty well because of the more relaxed and mature atmosphere.

I was considering going on to University but things weren't too great financially because I was having to rely on my disabled dad (who wasn't getting what he needed at the time) and I had to take on a clerical job to get things together.

I tend to get upset at thugs, druggies, drunks and other undesirables and they are the reason I get depressed. I lived next to a drug taking, abusive, racist and religiously bigotted family of idiots for seven years (they're facing court soon and the son could be heading for jail) and I only managed to get out of that place last month.

My family's lives seem to be picking up as we're in a small town near Glasgow and it is a great change for us. My doctor joked that the only noise I would hear would be clattering walking frames from our elderly neighbours!

I'm going to get my business idea up and going soon (my health has been a bit dodgy recently) and that should help me improve even more in health terms.

I think people with problems like to be able to talk about them to other people who understand where they're coming from.

weetO

Weetomuncher

03-16-2005, 04:24 PM

Ian Boothby

03-16-2005, 09:42 PM

That's actually a pretty good question, and I'm not at all mad that you asked it. But... the answer is still no. Because we've put enough emphasis on science taking care of everything for us over the decades. It robs us of our humanity. Giving care for these people you mentioned doesn't have to include a "cure." It may make more sense for something like AIDS or cancer, but an autism "cure" is still basically playing God. If we really say that humans aren't perfect, we ultimately have to face what that statement REALLY means. We can't move forward into any kind of viable future until we learn to live with ourselves and our own human limitations.

I've questioned a couple of times if I have Aspergers. I go down the symptom list and it's like a grocery list of what's in my head.
I'd like a cure if there is one and it didn't mess up the creative process. It would really depend on the price that needed to be paid. I feel like someone who lost the use of one body part and all the others got stronger to compensate, I'd like the part back but not to lost the strength.

Your point of view seems to be similar to the deaf community where it's offensive in some circles to bring up a cure.

PatrickG

03-17-2005, 07:06 AM

I can see that, Ian.

When I was 11 or 12 and sometimes still, I find myself wanting to be more like everyone else.

I'd have to think long and hard though.

Having been misdiagnosed with ADD and anxiety conditions before I found that the medications made it somewhat easier to cope but I also felt like I was robbed a bit of myself. To this day, I feel like maybe there's some lingering effect from the meds that broke the continuity of my personal narrative.

I went eighteen years as me, for better or worse, spent a few years "cured" by various remedies and now, as myself again, I feel like there's a gap in my life where my behavior, attitudes and way of facing the world was not me. The friends I made, the life I led... It was more ordinary, perhaps, once things leveled out but it didn't jive with the first eighteen years.

I was content working a job that the real me would have had an anxiety attack at and quit. I made friends -- bless 'em -- that weren't about anything more than partying. Nothing seemed abnormal no matter how strange it would seem to the real me. Nothing seemed particular contemptable. All choices seemed equally fulfilling. There was so much less incentive or drive to prove myself. The rigid "right" and "wrong" of A.S. (and I do think I'm A.S. or borderline) vanished with nothing to take their place.

As such, I was content with a job that didn't offer any prestige and little hope of advancement. I was content having friends with whom I had little in common. I found myself attracted to girls with whom I had nothing, personality-wise, to compliment. I was content to live an undistinctive life without my narrow interests or need to prove myself.

At one point, I found myself calmly talking with a guy who claimed to be former hired muscle with a drug dealer at an all-night restaurant in the bad part of town. When I noticed the waitress left a bloody switchblade out on a table, I calmly suggested she shouldn't leave it out.

Nothing was wrong anymore. I couldn't judge other people and I couldn't judge myself.

The attempts to "fix" people, IMO, forget that anxiety, depression and bad social skills can be POSITIVE things. Just as pain warns people to stay away from a hot stove, all the seemingly negative components of a person's psyche CAN be positive. Our traits, good and bad, keep us away from the places we shouldn't be and force us towards the places we should be.

So... If you could make me happy, you have to take away my pain. Make me expressive and you have to take away the depth of my emotions that makes it hard for me to be expressive. Make me social and you strip away the square edges of my peg that keep me from fitting in a round hole.

I'll agree that I wouldn't want a "cure" unless I could keep everything I have now.

And honestly, I think that medications create a discontinuity in human development. I think the only "cure" that would let me keep everything I have would be to gradually learn the behaviors and skills that others take for granted over a lifetime.

palaeomerus

03-17-2005, 12:37 PM

OCD doesn't necessarily confer an eye for detail on people.

In a lot of milder cases it's people who have to check that they locked the front door 100 times or more a day even though they clearly remember locking the door or who think they lost a steak knife in the house somewhere and so are constantly counting all the steak knives even though they "KNOW" that they are all in the drawer.

Sometimes it's even weirder and people have a compulsion to perform esoteric "ritual" tasks like drawing exact likenesses of something like pennies or magazine pages or their phone bill or memorizing long passages of text(like phone book or instruction manual pages) and they can't function normally until they have spent a certain amount of time doing their rituals and have purged their anxiety about not having done them.

Still worse are the people who are constantly washing themselves or exercising or taking things apart and putting them back together or in some cases biting themselves or even cutting themselves or bending their joints as hard as they can or whatever.

The consequences for not completeing the ritual may be an annoyance or a full on panic or hard feelings of guilt and depression.

One case had a man who had to know where his old shotgun was because he wanted to make sure that it hadn't been used to kill someone. He was constantly taking it out of his closet and one day decided to sell it so he wouldn't have to worry about it. Then he had no way to release his anxiety over the potential of the gun being used for murder and he said that it took a few months for him to settle on some other thing to build an OCD ritual around. He started inspecting his car all the time for damage and wear on the bakes and fluid levels and such.

I was mispegged for OCD because I collected books, novels, video games and plastic robot models and the doctor felt that this was a mild OCD hoarding behavior (where I enjoyed collecting because it blocked out a fear that I might need some element of what I was hoarding someday). When rather easily quit collecting stuff for a while and then revealed that I often did not scrupulously maintain my collections the doctor decided that I was more of a novelty junky and that I was seeking a temporary high rather than avoiding a morbid anxiety and that I probly had a behavioral problem with collecting rather than a personality disorder. In other words it was a bad habit and not a true compulsion. But I got to read a lot of OCD pamphlets and talk to a few OCD people under treatment in the meantime. Since I was a mild case he considered medication to be optional and I declined it.