The Endless vs Eternity

[Slade]

Since my Endless vs Celestials post seemed to be a mismatch, how do the Endless do against the embodiment of the universe?

[Andross]

I'd still go for the Endless. Even if the others were incapable of winning, Death would still win in the end. For when there is nothing left in the universe, Death will still be there to close the door and to turn off the lights for all eternity.

[hathead]

I second that. But then again I have a very low opinion on Marvel's cosmics, considering that they have been used to job to everyone lately. The only fight imo I saw Eternity win is against Dormannu(sp?), while losing to the Infinities, IG Thanos, Genis, 6 cosmic cubes, etc... Also the cosmics have been anthro-morphied to the extent that they lost the since of mystery and granduer and more in line of showing human feelings. I don't understand how Eternity, a person with cosmic awareness, would ask Warlock for advice.

That's my two cents.

[Andross]

Well I was being a bit overdramatic with a line Death once used.

Death:
"When the first living thing existed, I was there, waiting. When the last living thing dies, my job will be finished. I'll put the chairs on the tables, turn out the lights and lock the universe behind me when I leave."

And yeah cosmics do tend to job a bit, but so do cosmic objects such as novas, black holes, planets, galaxies, stars, and so on tend to do.

I still got to give this to the Endless though, since it is a six on one situation, but Eternity wouldn't go down without a fight.

[CDTM]

Well I was being a bit overdramatic with a line Death once used.

Death:
"When the first living thing existed, I was there, waiting. When the last living thing dies, my job will be finished. I'll put the chairs on the tables, turn out the lights and lock the universe behind me when I leave."

And yeah cosmics do tend to job a bit, but so do cosmic objects such as novas, black holes, planets, galaxies, stars, and so on tend to do.

I still got to give this to the Endless though, since it is a six on one situation, but Eternity wouldn't go down without a fight.

Wouldn't the Endless just be an aspect of Eternity and his multiverses?

I thought the only beings above him were Living Tribunal and the Infinity Being.

[Tommy]

Don't the Endless function like the conceptual beings in Marvel? Misstress Love and so on? If so they get creamed.

[Andross]

Wouldn't the Endless just be an aspect of Eternity and his multiverses?

No, well they might be if they were from Marvel, but I am not really sure on all of that. Also Eternity is the emobiment of a universe, not the emobiment of a mulitverse. The Eternity that we most often see is the one in the Marvel 616 universe, but there are others in the Marvel Multiverse.

I thought the only beings above him were Living Tribunal and the Infinity Being.

In Marvel Comics, Infinity, Death, and Oblivion are his equals and the Living Tribunal is above him. Entropy and Epiphany are also powerful abstracts but it is likely that they might be a bit weaker, even though Entorpy did destroy Eternity and took his place as the new Eternity. It also seems that cosmic relics such as the combined might of the Infinity Gems, Cosmic Cubes, and among other things can subdue or defeat Eternity.

Don't the Endless function like the conceptual beings in Marvel? Misstress Love and so on? If so they get creamed.

The Endless are not from the Marvel Universe, they are from the DC/Vertigo Universe. They are aspects of different functions within the universe, such as Death, Dream, Destruction, ect.

I do think that Eternity is more powerful than any member of the Endless, but with their combined teamwork I have a feeling that they could be able to defeat him, and this is something that has happened on several occasions anyway, so it isn't like this would be a lost caused for the Endless.

[Tommy]

No, well they might be if they were from Marvel, but I am not really sure on all of that.

DC has only one Universe which is the major difference between it and Marvel. Eternity would pretty much be the top dog in DC.
The Endless are not from the Marvel Universe, they are from the DC/Vertigo Universe. They are aspects of different functions within the universe, such as Death, Dream, Destruction, ect.
Just like Mistress Love, Sire Hate and the other concpet beings in Marvel...

[CDTM]

DC has only one Universe which is the major difference between it and Marvel. Eternity would pretty much be the top dog in DC.

Just like Mistress Love, Sire Hate and the other concpet beings in Marvel...

That was all retconned by Hypertime.

[Tommy]

That was all retconned by Hypertime.
The retroconned the Crisis?

[XPac]

DC has only one Universe which is the major difference between it and Marvel. Eternity would pretty much be the top dog in DC.

Just like Mistress Love, Sire Hate and the other concpet beings in Marvel...

Well, the Crime Syndicate seemed to come from a parallel DCU earth. So at least there was one alternate universe in DC. Or at least there was till Krona got his hands on it.

[CDTM]

The retroconned the Crisis?

In a manner of speaking. Basically, Hypertime is an endless parade of DCU's where Pre Crisis era never ended, or something... It was officially recognized in the sequal to Kingdom Come, where two different Supermen, Batmen, and Wonderwomen fight Gog in The Kingdom, and it's an acting retcon on how Pre Crisis Superboy could've appeared in Zero Hour since the Pocket Universe was destroyed, and that Superboy was dead regardless...

That also makes Parallax universal feat even more impressive, considering it pretty much retcons that he only reconstructed a single universe.

[Andross]

DC has only one Universe which is the major difference between it and Marvel. Eternity would pretty much be the top dog in DC.

Just like Mistress Love, Sire Hate and the other concpet beings in Marvel...

There are multiple universes in DC now, and Superman even has fought a Pre-Crisis version of Superboy in one scenario. Also Lucifer created a multiverse to rule on his own to oppose the will of his father the Presence.

Love and Hate are conceptual aspects in the Marvel Universe, but they haven't really been shown to display complete utter control like the Endless have. The Endless pretty much do whatever they want, unless it involves Lucifer then their plans might change, but other than that they have been seen as an extreme force to reckon with.

Below is profile on the Endless, and gives a pretty good detail of them. I am not saying that they would bitchsmack Eternity around, but I think that they could give him a decent fight, and should win if they display their powers correctly.

http://www.dcuguide.com/profile.php?name=endless

Now I know that you don't have to kill you member to win a match, but I just thought that I would bring up the fact that it is impossible to kill DC's Death. For if she dies, she just meets herself.

[NeoSapien]

Eternity is the eldest of Marvel's seven conceptual beings that encompass... stuff. As the Endless are a group of seven beings/concepts starting with the letter one earlier than E in the alphabet, D, Marvel's Friendless (thank you PAD :rolleyes: ) are a group of seven beings/concepts starting with the letter one earlier than F in the alphabet, E. They are Empathy, Enmity, Entropy, Epiphany, Eternity, Eulogy, and Expediency. So Eternity is sort of equivalent to Destiny, except he is the father figure while Destiny is merely an older brother. Destiny's book represents the universe in much the same way as Eternity. Therefore Destiny and Eternity will stalemate each other, leaving the other six Endless to break the tie easily.

[CDTM]

Eternity is the eldest of Marvel's seven conceptual beings that encompass... stuff. As the Endless are a group of seven beings/concepts starting with the letter one earlier than E in the alphabet, D, Marvel's Friendless (thank you PAD :rolleyes: ) are a group of seven beings/concepts starting with the letter one earlier than F in the alphabet, E. They are Empathy, Enmity, Entropy, Epiphany, Eternity, Eulogy, and Expediency. So Eternity is sort of equivalent to Destiny, except he is the father figure while Destiny is merely an older brother. Destiny's book represents the universe in much the same way as Eternity. Therefore Destiny and Eternity will stalemate each other, leaving the other six Endless to break the tie easily.

This is stuff you don't usually hear a lot about on comic message boards. Everyone just usually parrots the old "Marvel Gods are better then DC Gods" lines. :rolleyes:

[XPac]

At this level, I don't think you can really compare cosmic beings to any level of accuracy. It's basically the embodiment of one reality vs the embodiment of another. If I had to pick a winner I'd say the Endless due to the numbers issue, but I'm leaning more to a draw.

[Cain of Dreaming]

Wouldn't the Endless just be an aspect of Eternity and his multiverses?

No. Since it doesn't work that way even with the MU version -- she's not an aspect of Eternity, rather than his opposite with Galactus in the middle being the balance of that equation.

[Sage Shinigami]

Well, Eternity is more of a concept than an idea. It means forever, and we don't REALLY know if there is a forever. The Endless, however, we see daily almost. Death, Destruction, Destiny--they're much more real to us than Eternity is, so I think that makes them a tad more powerful. I also think Death would b-smack Eternity if she annoyed her long enough, but I'm insane...:D

[Slade]

Hmm, I just realized that Eternity and the Endless mean the exact same thing.

[Knightosis]

What're Eternity's chances of beating them on a one on one fight?

[Andross]

What're Eternity's chances of beating them on a one on one fight?

Personally I think Eternity would do rather well in a one on one confrontation with the Endless. He should be able to at least stalemate and perhaps beat some members, though Death would be a bitch to defeat.

[Alan2099]

Destruction wouldn't even show up for the fight.
Destiny would just stand there reading his book and not bother to help anyone.
Delerium would more likely than not forget why she was there and get distracted by a rainbow colored kangaroo and leave.

I'm not sure if Eterntiy Dreams. If he doesn't there's not much Dream could do to stop him.

Desire and Despair could do a pretty good job at pushing his buttons.
Death I doubt he could overcome.

[Sam]

The retroconned the Crisis?

It's a question of different types of multiverses. The original Pre-Crisis Multiverse consisted of a whole bunch of universes that existed at "different vibrational frequencies." They were all created at once, at a single instant, when the rogue Guardian Krona witnessed the beginning of reality and in so doing fractured reality into an infinity of universes, all of which proceeded on from that point.

Hypertime is more like the Marvel multiverse, with an infinite number of alternate timelines constantly branching off with every choice or possibility.

So in some timelines, the Crisis happened and all the different vibrational universes collapsed down into a single one. In other timelines, the Pre-Crisis multiverse still exists.

[Sam]

Keep in mind, we've never seen the true Eternity. As they discussed in QUASAR, that humanoid figure made of stars is just an M-body. An avatar, basically -- a finger-puppet the true entity uses on the rare occasions when it needs to interact with material beings inside itself.

I recall seeing a conversation between Warlock and Eternity at one point where Eternity mentioned how much he dislikes operating at the mortal, linear level, because he transcends the limits of space and time and as such is locked into a severe case of Dr. Manhattan syndrome when he needs to operate at a level approximating mortal perception.

I would think Eternity has the advantage here. He embodies everything the Endless embody except Death.

(And keep in mind that Marvel's Death has a role slightly larger than the Endless' version. The Endless' Death handles the cessation of life and passage into whatever lies beyond. Marvel's Death also embodies that beyond -- all concievable afterlives are a part of her, in the way that the reality of the living is contained within Eternity.)

[The Watcher]

I'm not sure if Eterntiy Dreams.One of several theories about what the Celestials are posits that they are the dreams of Eternity.

But it's only one theory.

[Andross]

And keep in mind that Marvel's Death has a role slightly larger than the Endless' version. The Endless' Death handles the cessation of life and passage into whatever lies beyond. Marvel's Death also embodies that beyond -- all concievable afterlives are a part of her, in the way that the reality of the living is contained within Eternity.

I don't see how Marvel's Death has a larger role than the Endless Death. The Endless Death will be around for all times, she will be the last thing there to turn out the lights when the universe is to fade away and die, and I have seen Death in some pretty bad predictiments before such as Walker, Rot, ect.

[Sam]

I don't see how Marvel's Death has a larger role than the Endless Death. The Endless Death will be around for all times, she will be the last thing there to turn out the lights when the universe is to fade away and die, and I have seen Death in some pretty bad predictiments before such as Walker, Rot, ect.

I mean larger role in that, to swipe a term from D&D, Marvel's Death has a broader portfolio. DC-Death, in terms of her cosmic role, is your basic Grim Reaper package. She handles the transition between Alive and Not Alive Anymore. She takes your soul from your body to... well, wherever it is you're headed. Heaven, Hell, Valhalla, reincarnation, whatever.

Marvel's Death does all that, but also embodies the place you're taken. Heaven, Hell, Valhalla, and all the other afterlife realms are to Death what the material universe is to Eternity.

[yeoman]

It's a question of different types of multiverses. The original Pre-Crisis Multiverse consisted of a whole bunch of universes that existed at "different vibrational frequencies." They were all created at once, at a single instant, when the rogue Guardian Krona witnessed the beginning of reality and in so doing fractured reality into an infinity of universes, all of which proceeded on from that point.

Hypertime is more like the Marvel multiverse, with an infinite number of alternate timelines constantly branching off with every choice or possibility.

So in some timelines, the Crisis happened and all the different vibrational universes collapsed down into a single one. In other timelines, the Pre-Crisis multiverse still exists.

Hypertime can also, IIRC, branch back together.

[Sam]

Hypertime can also, IIRC, branch back together.

Yep. Handy way to explain away continuity glitches -- the past changed!