Ollie visits Sherwood....

[YoGo]

I just read the first two arcs of Kevin Smith's Green Arrow run.

Wow.

I never realised how much Dinah likes her fun. After only following her through the Justice League and BOP it was kinda weird to see her moaning in ecstacy as Ollie went down on her. Twice.

'Visiting Sherwood' I believe Ollie called it.

Did anyone have a similar reaction? Maybe I'm just not used to seeing this side of Dinah.

[palaeomerus]

Kevin Smith just writes about oral sex a lot.

[the4thpip]

I think we witnessed them "do it" as far back as the 1980s issue of Action Comics weekly that shows Dinah burn her polyester outfit on the cover. IIRC, they even do it in the kitchen.

[YoGo]

Yeah he visited Sherwood in the kitchen in GA as well. It was a flashback, Ollie was trying to wrangle his way out of doing the dishes and well....you know how it turns out.

And this makes me wonder why all the fuss about cheesecake shots and that stupid article about Huntress' "taint" in BOP, when you've got Kevin Smith writing these kinds of scenes in GA.

To me its a reaction to the theory Gail provided about the BOPers not being apologetic about their lives. Maybe some people don't see it as 'proper', but when a dude like Kevin Smith writes about GA giving Dinah head its cool??

(I'm not actually slamming Kevin Smith's oral sex scenes. But I don't get the double standard treatment of BOP. Am I deluding myself or am I onto something?)

[Static-Pulse]

Insomnia sucks...

Anyway, you think Kevin Smith talking about Ollie being a cunning linguist is something, check out this spread (http://profnano.org/hackers/db/greenarrow_35.jpg) from Green Arrow #35 from July 1990 (mature viewers only, please). Dinah's no shrew, by any stretch of the imagination.

And, you know, I'd rather see something like that every once in a while rather than Benes "bulbous Brazillian butts" in every issue. That picture of Dinah and Ollie -- and, look, I loathe Ollie -- together mean something. It expresses something about the charaters and the story that no dialogue or narrative exposition could. You look at that and, unless your name is Beavis or Butt-Head, all the love and passion and sadness and joy that those two have eperienced just slams into your brain.

When I look at Huntress's ass hanging of a motorcycle or we get a closeup of Black Canary's crotch, I either think "Damn, I wants me some'a dat!" or "Oh, yes, you have a butt, Helena, thank you." Cheesecake in and of itself is fine, but when I'm deluged with it in almost every issue and it does nothing for the story, it stops being fun.

It's a question of effeciency for me. If the same story could be told just as well with out Helena or Dinah's ass in my face, then the ass is fanservice.

Look at issue #79. I don't think I've seen one person complain about Helena wearing a camisole while she was on the phone with Barbara, but I have seen a thread on rec.arts.comics.dc.universe called "Ass O' Plenty." The difference isn't that the camisole scene wasn't sexy, it was for me anyway, it's that the camisole expresses something better than narration could: Helena is grading papers right before going to sleep. Gail expertly uses the imagery to do something that dialogue would have made clunky.

Helena could have said, "You're not bothering me, I was just getting ready for bed." However, showing her like that elegantly says everything we need to know about the scene, and, hey: camisole! Benes' cheesecake doesn't offer anything, and it's often so jarring as to detract from the flow of the story.

But hey, if the ladies like it (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showpost.php?p=1035438&postcount=2), who am I to deconstruct?

[Santanico]

Y'know, you have to love that, in that GA spread, we get a full panel's worth of Dinah's bare ass, plus a nipple, yet Ollie's tunic conveniently manages to fall in such a way as to cover his entire lower half. Kudos, DC, for protecting that all-important sense of male modesty.

[the4thpip]

Maybe Ollie had a pimple?

[PatrickG]

Speaking of innuendos...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v226/thatsmyfat/batman05.jpg

[Patient Boy]

Was Green Arrow a mature readers title back in 1990?

[outlander78]

Yes it was - Longbow Hunters and the run that followed both were. I believe Kevin Smith's run was as well.

[Pixies Chick]

Dinah and Ollie rocked all the time in the MiKe Grell run. In #51, they nakedly celebrated a reunion for almost the whole issue (and Dinah had been on a date with some other guy in #50). Probably couldn't have gotten away with it, but Sean McManus' style is a little more cartoony than Grell's. The Longbow Hunters had some steam to it too.

All Kevin Smith's sex scenes start in the kitchen or restaurant. Even Mia's dream.

[Corrina]

Damn, I love Mike Grell's art.

[YoGo]

Yeah Mia's dream made me go "WTF?!", until she woke up.

Still....ew.

[Ian Boothby]

So if that's what visiting Sherwood means what does it mean when Ollie visits the Batcave?

[Static-Pulse]

So if that's what visiting Sherwood means what does it mean when Ollie visits the Batcave?Or when Superman goes to the Fortress of Solitude?

[Jeff Brady]

"Kneel before Zod" takes on a whole new meaning...

[Cam63]

" Going down to Sherwood Forest " is a referance to tourist destinations in the lovely English county of Nottingham, United Kingdom and has nothing at all to do with that urky stuff some of our more course posters have made mention of.

[Gail Simone]

Insomnia sucks...

Anyway, you think Kevin Smith talking about Ollie being a cunning linguist is something, check out this spread (http://profnano.org/hackers/db/greenarrow_35.jpg) from Green Arrow #35 from July 1990 (mature viewers only, please). Dinah's no shrew, by any stretch of the imagination.

And, you know, I'd rather see something like that every once in a while rather than Benes "bulbous Brazillian butts" in every issue. That picture of Dinah and Ollie -- and, look, I loathe Ollie -- together mean something. It expresses something about the charaters and the story that no dialogue or narrative exposition could. You look at that and, unless your name is Beavis or Butt-Head, all the love and passion and sadness and joy that those two have eperienced just slams into your brain.

When I look at Huntress's ass hanging of a motorcycle or we get a closeup of Black Canary's crotch, I either think "Damn, I wants me some'a dat!" or "Oh, yes, you have a butt, Helena, thank you." Cheesecake in and of itself is fine, but when I'm deluged with it in almost every issue and it does nothing for the story, it stops being fun.

It's a question of effeciency for me. If the same story could be told just as well with out Helena or Dinah's ass in my face, then the ass is fanservice.

Look at issue #79. I don't think I've seen one person complain about Helena wearing a camisole while she was on the phone with Barbara, but I have seen a thread on rec.arts.comics.dc.universe called "Ass O' Plenty." The difference isn't that the camisole scene wasn't sexy, it was for me anyway, it's that the camisole expresses something better than narration could: Helena is grading papers right before going to sleep. Gail expertly uses the imagery to do something that dialogue would have made clunky.

Helena could have said, "You're not bothering me, I was just getting ready for bed." However, showing her like that elegantly says everything we need to know about the scene, and, hey: camisole! Benes' cheesecake doesn't offer anything, and it's often so jarring as to detract from the flow of the story.

But hey, if the ladies like it (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showpost.php?p=1035438&postcount=2), who am I to deconstruct?


You know, I get a lot of pissy responses whenever I say this, but it's true (not talking about you, Andrew, just in general). More girls, at least by all the evidence of retailers, cons and mail, are reading Bop by percentage than most comics. Someone always says, in a snarky tone, that that's a poor defense.

And I say, poor defense for what?

I've said a hundred times that I felt Benes sometimes put cheesecake in the wrong spot in the story. I've groaned at it more than once. But he's also taken a lot of crap for choices I made (he's always getting blamed for Dinah's open legs in our first issue, in the car with Fisher--my choice specifically), and for things like costumes he had nothing to do with designing. But beyond that, I think he's a terrific, exciting storyteller. He does draw sexy women, every Brazilian I've worked with male and female did that.

It's not a book for tightasses, never has been, never will be. I've said over and over that I'd rather have a book that flies off the cliff of good taste once in a while any DAY over another mannered, responsible, well-behaved book.

Nevertheless, I do understand and sympathize with those who are either genuinely offended or simply feel it's a bad fit with a book they otherwise enjoy. All I can say to that is that this week is Ed's last issue, and Joe, who also draws sexy women, but less obtrusively, is coming aboard.

Joe's a delight. His backgrounds and the varying body shapes and faces really make me happy. He has a lot of different strengths from Ed.

But I can't apologize for Ed's work--I really enjoyed it, he was a tremendous guy to work with, and he was a MAJOR part of the book's success.

And the quote was 'Brazilian bubble butts,' and JOE said it, not Ed.

Gail

[Cam63]

That's a nice defence of Ed's work.

[YoGo]

I love Ed's work and the bits where he was overly sexy? I didnt mind it. I think it goes with the unapologetic tone of BOP that you described Gail.

I dont see why people make a fuss over it and Ollie going to Sherwood doesnt make people bat an eye. The book is sexy. The Birds are sexy character-wise and physically. The writing and Benes' art convey that and have made that a defining feature of the book since you two came on. I don't think you or Ed have anything to apologise for, including that open leg bit in the first issue. It wasnt gratituos and it drove the plot and Dinah's character.

If Ed's art and cheesecake shots were used in Kingdom Come for example it would just distract from the story, but in BOP? Fits right in. Snuggly even. BOP would have been tons less fun without Ed's art and he really helped raised the profile of the book as much as Gail's writing IMO.

I'll miss him. *sob*

[Corrina]

I've learned that the thing with artwork, like writing, is that it's never perfect.

The few panels of Canary and Huntress on their motorcycles with a butt view in the last issue had me going "C'mon! Stop that! And you were doing so well!"

But the thing is, Benes does faces really, really well. He does action well--and his panel-to-panel storytelling is excellent.

Michael Lark would never draw butts the way Benes does. But Lark's work tends to be so dense in Gotham Central that I can hardly tell some of the detectives apart because the faces are all the same. It would be nice if I could figure out who's who in each panel without waiting for the detectives to use each other's names.

But Lark does fantastic noir atmosphere and his art does amazing things overall for the GC. I think Benes overall look for BoP was excellent. It's just that the overly sexualized shots happen to be a pet peeve.

[WhiteRose]

To be honest, I didn't really notice the number of cheesecake shots in Benes' artwork until I clicked through this thread. It always seemed to fit in with the flow of the storylines to me. Hell, it's a sexy comic with gorgeous leading ladies that I'd actually be kinda worried if there wasn't a booty shot here and there. (Wanna know a secret; When I finally decided to buy a few recent issues of BOP after hearing about it on and off for the last year, it was Benes' artwork the first drew me in. It's been the stortelling that's kept me bound and gagged ever since *sighs* I'm such a BOP newbie)
I read through the few issues before Benes and Gail started, and I think that their work is kind of a breath of life into the title (not that I'm disparaging everyone who worked on BOP beforehand. HELL no. Anything but.) because the storylines were getting a bit stilted and the artwork seemed to feel more cartoon-like. I'm glad Benes had a more edgy style, and I'm disappointed to see him go.

Blahrgh.

[Spackling Compound]

Or when Superman goes to the Fortress of Solitude?
I don't even want to think about what visit to the Amazon Forest means for Wonder Woman.... :eek:

[anthony!]

I don't even want to think about what visit to the Amazon Forest means for Wonder Woman.... :eek:

Amazon JUNGLE, Spack...Amazon JUNGLE... :evilsmile

[steeler80]

I've always liked Benes' artwork. Has he ever gone over the edge with the cheesecake? Probably, but not to the point where it's detracted from the book overall. These women are sexy and in touch with their feminine, sensuous sides, what have you. They're women not afraid of their sexuality might be a better way of saying it, I don't know. Anyway, the writing and art have always worked in tandem to enforce this idea.

[palaeomerus]

So women who don't routinely parade around like they're doing a Maxim shoot in the course of a normal conversion ARE afraid of their sexuality?

Ooookay....

[Gail Simone]

So women who don't routinely parade around like they're doing a Maxim shoot in the course of a normal conversion ARE afraid of their sexuality?

Ooookay....

That's not what I'M saying, certainly.

Gail

[palaeomerus]

I'm afraid of my sexuality. A little. You'll never see me in shorts and a tank top.

[blackcanary_416]

I wasn't shocked at all to see Dinah that way. Its a natural part of life and we just happend to catch her in it. But if you read the Grell arcs then you would see that it happend all the time. But it is kind of a shocker to come from Justice League of Americas Dinah to the Grell era and seeing more of a human side to her and Green Arrow.
now onto the art
Benes does have a different kind of art but I think BOP needs some cheesecake because in those types of outfits it does show detail and I just say its fun. There is worse in other books so I really dont mind butt shots and all that sort of stuff.

[steeler80]

So women who don't routinely parade around like they're doing a Maxim shoot in the course of a normal conversion ARE afraid of their sexuality?

Ooookay....

Okay, I've edited this a couple of times to try to get down exactly what I meant (if you read my original post I had a hard time trying to get into words what I was thinking which probably means I shouldn't have said anything). But I don't want to come off sounding like a male-chauvanist. I was trying to say that these women are strong and independent. They are comfortable with themselve; they're comfortable in their sensuality. They feel sexy and sometimes they want to act or dress in a way that expresses that.

Maybe I should just quit while I'm behind. :o

[Static-Pulse]

And the quote was 'Brazilian bubble butts,' and JOE said it, not Ed.I knew it was some alliteration. Thank you.

I'll miss him. *sob*I can sympathize! Thank goodness for eBay, where you can commission any and all kinds of cheesecakery imaginable. :)

[Suzanne]

I don't think "Sherwood Forrest" is the most flattering of nicknames, do you? ;)

[YoGo]

Better than 'taint'.....

[Static-Pulse]

I'm making up for being offline all day...

Better than 'taint'.....Can you put up a link to that? I did a quick google for "Huntress taint" the other day, but couldn't find that article. Thanks!

[YoGo]

http://goodcomics.blogspot.com/2005/02/girl-plus-girl-almost-as-dirty-as.html

I just searched for 'taint' within the YABS forum.

[Static-Pulse]

I just searched for 'taint' within the YABS forum.Thank you. Thank you very much.