Star Wars

[Jared_Humpherys]

Matt Stover's one of the best writers to join the Star Wars stable in a long time. Has he done any non-media stuff?

Agreed. He has two fantasy books under the "Barra and Co." banner, and also has a scifi/fantasy series called "The Acts of Caine."

Unfortunately, I have yet to read any of either series.

[Jared]

Judging by the book by its cover (http://starwarsblog.starwars.com/index.php/2008/06/16/dave-seeley-talks-mindors-got-back/), Shadows of Mindor will indeed kick ass.

I really like the pulp adventure-style title, too.

Has anyone read Coruscant Nights yet?

[Nate Grey]

Hey what book is it that Jaina kills her twin in combat? I kinda wanna check that out. Is it out or is it coming out?

[Sabrina_Fried]

Nate Grey:

The book is Invincible, the last book of the Legacy of the Force series. It came out in hardcover a month or two back. Or just wait for the paperback, which is supposedly coming out in December.

Sabrina

[Arrogantcur]

That, and Jacen Solo deserved better.

A-bleepin'-men. So did Mara.

This series also seems to reinforce the idea that falling in love leads to the dark side and should therefore be avoided. For some reason it makes me angry whenever a character in the SW universe has said that or a story is added to continuity that seems to prove it. I don't have a logical reason for feeling so strongly, all I know is that I do.

Nobody should be denied the right to fall in love and to be loved back. Corran Horn said it best in "Union", which is the comic written by Michael Stackpole telling the story of Luke and Mara's wedding and the events leading up to it.

"Having a ceremony to validate and celebrate love can't be of the dark side."

-Corran Horn

Another point that I like bringing up. At the end of ROTJ, we know two things about Leia. We know that she is romantically involved with Han, and we know based on what Luke says to her earlier in the movie that she'll become as powerful as he is. So if Lucas always believed in this "Jedi can't fall in love, otherwise they become EVIL" crap, he would have ended the movie differently.

I really wish he'd left well enough alone, because the Jedi belief system from the prequels (which I consider twisted) is seeping into the EU.

[Rabid Trekkie]

Judging by the book by its cover (http://starwarsblog.starwars.com/index.php/2008/06/16/dave-seeley-talks-mindors-got-back/), Shadows of Mindor will indeed kick ass.

I really like the pulp adventure-style title, too.

Has anyone read Coruscant Nights yet?

I'm about 60 pages into it so far. Really good so far, one of the masters who we've rarely seen (far as I know anyway) gets a moment to shine and be a real badass without being unbelievable.

Though one thing that has bothered me here and in other books, the sheer number of Jedi who sensed something wrong with Anakin and kept their mouths shut is starting to get ridiculous. I would have thought someone would have spoken up before Anakin went all Sith on everyone.

[Lester C.]

I have Stover's Caine's books and they are very sophisticated in their themes and very dark. The Star Wars version of Stover hits you like a wet noodle whereas his other works hit you like Joe Frasier in his prime. You all have been warned.

I am reading the first Courscant Nights novel and I love it. Each book has it’s own cast and the dramatis personae from the first book made me scream for joy. Here is the list as we see recurring characters from past Stover, Perry, Reaves. If you’ve kept up on the books like I have than Darth Vader, I-5yq, Jax Pavan, Nick Rorsu and Price Xizor should really get the blood pumping.

[Arrogantcur]

I liked what Reaves did in the Darth Maul book he wrote, and I'm glad I-5 is in this. I might just pick it up.

I-5's fate in that book was tragic, especially considering what ultimately happened to Lorn Pavan as well, so it was such a relief to me when I found out that he hadn't been permanently memory-wiped and was his old self again.

[Lester C.]

I liked what Reaves did in the Darth Maul book he wrote, and I'm glad I-5 is in this. I might just pick it up.

I-5's fate in that book was tragic, especially considering what ultimately happened to Lorn Pavan as well, so it was such a relief to me when I found out that he hadn't been permanently memory-wiped and was his old self again.

That wasn't the last appearance of the character. I-5 was featured in the two Medstar books. His screen time was small but there were major developments regarding the character. I-5 story continues from the Medstar books which continued from the Darth Maul Shadow Hunter book.

Here is the thing with Curscant Nights. It weaves the threads and provides resolution from several different books in order to really enjoy it as we finally know what happened to certain characters after the Empire carried out order 66.

[jwd]

"Millenium Falcon" the followup to the Legacy of the Force series will now be released in October and "Luke Skywalker:Shadows of Mindor" will be released in December.

http://www.theforce.net/books/story/Mindor_And_Falcon_Switch_Release_Dates_115389.asp

I'm guessing they want the followup to Legacy out as quickly as possible was it seems like a lot of people weren't happy with what transpired in Invincible. They might want to get the next series underway and I'm guessing "Falcon" will be a setup for it as well. Also Luke Skywalker on the cover in his classic X-Wing outfit might be a good for a book to sale during the holidays.



jwd

[Sabrina_Fried]

I read a post in the BCaT thread at the official site where Sue Rostoni said the main reason for the switch was that Matt Stover's manuscript came in late, but the manuscript for Millennium Falcon was early.

They've got a lot of books coming out in December, if you count the reprints.

Sabrina

[Arrogantcur]

I'm guessing they want the followup to Legacy out as quickly as possible was it seems like a lot of people weren't happy with what transpired in Invincible.

Shocking. :eek:

:rolleyes:

I read a post in the BCaT thread at the official site where Sue Rostoni said the main reason for the switch was that Matt Stover's manuscript came in late, but the manuscript for Millennium Falcon was early.

Speaking of Stover, I thought what he wrote in Traitor, the conversation between Vergere and Jacen, made a lot of sense.

"Light" Jedi have done "dark" things and vice versa. That made it very easy for me to believe that it wasn't about whether you used dark side powers or light side, whether you drew power from emotion...no, it's about whether you can maintain control of yourself and what you do.

My favourite Vergere quote goes something like this:

"You can kill and kill and kill and kill so long as you don't lose your temper? Isn't that a little sick?"

Later on that was all branded SITH TALK! Because she was a SITH! :eek: (Is that the kind of thing I need to spoiler out btw? I thought I'd just be safe there.) So we ended up having a really interesting and logical way of looking at the Force debunked by retconning the messenger's backstory because she blasphemed against the G-canon in the prequels. Which made me...a little sick...

Anyway, does anyone know whose idea it was to have Vergere tell Jacen all of that, and if they had any knowledge of what would be revealed about the character later on?

[QuietRiver]

Shocking. :eek:

:rolleyes:



Speaking of Stover, I thought what he wrote in Traitor, the conversation between Vergere and Jacen, made a lot of sense.

"Light" Jedi have done "dark" things and vice versa. That made it very easy for me to believe that it wasn't about whether you used dark side powers or light side, whether you drew power from emotion...no, it's about whether you can maintain control of yourself and what you do.

My favourite Vergere quote goes something like this:

"You can kill and kill and kill and kill so long as you don't lose your temper? Isn't that a little sick?"

Later on that was all branded SITH TALK! Because she was a SITH! :eek: (Is that the kind of thing I need to spoiler out btw? I thought I'd just be safe there.) So we ended up having a really interesting and logical way of looking at the Force debunked by retconning the messenger's backstory because she blasphemed against the G-canon in the prequels. Which made me...a little sick...

Anyway, does anyone know whose idea it was to have Vergere tell Jacen all of that, and if they had any knowledge of what would be revealed about the character later on?

But is Vergere's way of looking at the Force debunked just because she's Sith?(didn't know if the spoiler was needed either) I mean yeah she's a bad guy, but thats not a reason she was wrong, is it? Ad hominin doesn't work as a valid reason for her outlook to be wrong.

But then, thats just my two cents.

[Arrogantcur]

I mean yeah she's a bad guy, but thats not a reason she was wrong, is it? Ad hominin doesn't work as a valid reason for her outlook to be wrong.

Unfortunately it wasn't just ad hominem stuff. I believe the intent of LotF was to say "Jacen listened to what she said, and look at how he turned out!"

It doesn't make a case for why her statements were wrong as far as I know (I've only gotten as far as "Inferno" at the moment, so maybe later in the series somebody will say something). It just serves as a cautionary tale about what happens to Force-users who take them to heart.

So far in the books I've read, it just shows her pupil inexplicably turning into a guy who is willing to do anything in order to get Sith power, who believes that he is right about everything, and who for some reason believes that having Sith in charge of the galaxy is the only way to keep it from becoming a horrible place despite the fact that he himself makes it a horrible place.

The only way for Vergere to be redeemed at this point would be for her Force ghost to show up and kind of say to Jacen "What the hell are you doing?! Do you actually think I would want you to turn into somebody like this? Do you think that I agree with everything Lumiya believes just because we worked together in the past and she quoted me and dropped my name? Are you an IDIOT?"

Something tells me I shouldn't hold my breath waiting for that to happen as I read the rest of the books. *sigh*

[QuietRiver]

Unfortunately it wasn't just ad hominem stuff. I believe the intent of LotF was to say "Jacen listened to what she said, and look at how he turned out!"

It doesn't make a case for why her statements were wrong as far as I know (I've only gotten as far as "Inferno" at the moment, so maybe later in the series somebody will say something). It just serves as a cautionary tale about what happens to Force-users who take them to heart.
Ah, I see. I haven't actually got to the Legacy series yet, but thanks to me friends blabbing, I've got most of what happens. So I probably missed out on just how the situation was portrayed in the books.

So far in the books I've read, it just shows her pupil inexplicably turning into a guy who is willing to do anything in order to get Sith power, who believes that he is right about everything, and who for some reason believes that having Sith in charge of the galaxy is the only way to keep it from becoming a horrible place despite the fact that he himself makes it a horrible place.
See, thats the thing. Despite Vergere's pupil going nuts like that, I'm of the view that it shows that Jacen didn't have the restraint necessary and coudn't maintain control of himself. Yeah, it wasn't a "I'm-bat-shit-insane" lack of control, but it was lack of control nevertheless. So I'm thinking Vergere's view still works, just that her representative of the view got it all wrong.

But then thats entirely up to the guys in charge of the Star Wars franchise. It may indeed just come down to darkside/lightside powers and emotion stuff like it was in the movies.

The only way for Vergere to be redeemed at this point would be for her Force ghost to show up and kind of say to Jacen "What the hell are you doing?! Do you actually think I would want you to turn into somebody like this? Do you think that I agree with everything Lumiya believes just because we worked together in the past and she quoted me and dropped my name? Are you an IDIOT?"
God but that would be good to see. ...'Course I gotta finish NJO and then Legacy first. Heh.

[Arrogantcur]

Ah, I see. I haven't actually got to the Legacy series yet, but thanks to me friends blabbing, I've got most of what happens. So I probably missed out on just how the situation was portrayed in the books.

Yeah, and I don't have the entire picture either, but I'm 2/3 of the way through it and I know basically how it ends (who dies, who lives, who ends up on which side, etc).


See, thats the thing. Despite Vergere's pupil going nuts like that, I'm of the view that it shows that Jacen didn't have the restraint necessary and coudn't maintain control of himself. Yeah, it wasn't a "I'm-bat-shit-insane" lack of control, but it was lack of control nevertheless. So I'm thinking Vergere's view still works, just that her representative of the view got it all wrong.

But then thats entirely up to the guys in charge of the Star Wars franchise. It may indeed just come down to darkside/lightside powers and emotion stuff like it was in the movies.

I don't know how much spoilage you're comfortable with, so if you don't want to find out about her dealings with Lumiya, the Dark Lady of the Sith, don't read this next part...

All of this is second hand information but is presented in a way that there's no reason to doubt it. According to Lumiya, Vergere was first a Jedi, and then a Sith who was Palpatine's pupil. Vergere was sort of like Jacen post-NJO in that respect, in that she wanted to explore everything.

Then she found out that Palpatine wanted to rule the galaxy and this shocked her, so she attempted to kill him. She didn't succeed, and subsequently went into hiding.

I forget the reason this shocked and appalled her. I think it was because Sith aren't supposed to have a lust for power or something like that.

Later on, after the fall of Palpatine, she got together with Lumiya and the two of them hatched a plan to bring back the Sith. It was because of this plan that Vergere arranged for Jacen Solo to be captured and tortured in the way he was, because that would supposedly harden him and get rid of his youthful idealism and stuff like that. It would change him into somebody who was more of a Sith.

It's implied that everything Vergere taught Jacen was told to him for one reason only: to make him lose faith in the Jedi way and be more receptive to the Sith way.

Vergere died before she could see Jacen become a Sith. In the first book, Lumiya reveals that she knew Vergere and explains to Jacen that Sith aren't the monsters he's been led to believe.

There is a Jedi there with Jacen, who is listening to Lumiya tell him this. She can't believe that Jacen is listening to Lumiya, and attacks her. Lumiya observes that she, the Sith, did not start this fight; a Jedi started it. She only defends herself.

Jacen steps in and defends Lumiya against the Jedi, whose name is Nelani.

Jacen decides he wants to listen to Lumiya some more. He thinks that maybe she can teach him some more Force tricks that he didn't pick up from all the other sects he learned from since the end of the Yuuzhan Vong war.

Nelani wants to arrest Lumiya or kill her, I forget which. Lumiya has committed a lot of crimes, you see.

This is where Jacen does something so retarded and shockingly out of character that it's just amazing.

He decides that he needs to kill Nelani, to keep Lumiya safe. And...HE DOES!

From there on he gets more and more evil. It's not exactly like the movies, where he's ruled by emotion, but he IS acting out of a desire to make the galaxy a safe place for his daughter. So there's that whole "personal attachments turn you EEEEvil!" thing again.

God but that would be good to see.

Yes indeed it would. :smile:

[jwd]

I know there's been mention of a post Legacy of the Force series. We already know Millenium Falcon is coming.

Do an amazon.com book search for "Fate of the Jedi" and you'll get

Fate of the Jedi I (HC) by Aaron Allston for a March release

I wonder if this is the followup to Legacy and the Falcon book.

It could be a post EP3 book but really we already know the fate of the Jedi and the Force Unleashed seems to be focusing on that time period.

We know the ultimate fate of the Jedi after the Legacy novels too with the Legacy comic but that's set nearly 100 years later.

Allston should be up to speed since he worked on LOTF. I could easily see this being the followup to what happened in Legacy and after an adventure in the Millenium Falcon.

[Lester C.]

I know there's been mention of a post Legacy of the Force series. We already know Millenium Falcon is coming.

Do an amazon.com book search for "Fate of the Jedi" and you'll get

Fate of the Jedi I (HC) by Aaron Allston for a March release

I wonder if this is the followup to Legacy and the Falcon book.

It could be a post EP3 book but really we already know the fate of the Jedi and the Force Unleashed seems to be focusing on that time period.

We know the ultimate fate of the Jedi after the Legacy novels too with the Legacy comic but that's set nearly 100 years later.

Allston should be up to speed since he worked on LOTF. I could easily see this being the followup to what happened in Legacy and after an adventure in the Millenium Falcon.

The ending of Legacy novels sets up the Legacy comics. I don't think there is that much room for any more stories post 46 ABY. I

[QuietRiver]

From there on he gets more and more evil. It's not exactly like the movies, where he's ruled by emotion, but he IS acting out of a desire to make the galaxy a safe place for his daughter. So there's that whole "personal attachments turn you EEEEvil!" thing again.[/spoil]
This is probably revealing my not being very familiar with the Extended Universe, but has there ever been a good Jedi who turned just because he went bad? Not because of personal attachments? I mean, from what I've seen and read, the already-bad guys are inherently bad and the good guys who turn bad are always because of the attachments... which is weird. If I recall correctly, Dooku was the only one who went bad because he went bad, which stemmed from his disillusionment with the then-current system of things.

The ending of Legacy novels sets up the Legacy comics. I don't think there is that much room for any more stories post 46 ABY. I
...There's a hundred year gap between Invincible and the Legacy comics. Lots of stories to tell. Just look at the sheer amount of stories between A New Hope and Invincible, and thats just under 50 years of time passed... holy crap but Luke is old now. He should be almost 70, no?

[Michael P]

holy crap but Luke is old now. He should be almost 70, no?

I always figured was 18 in Star Wars, so add 46 years and he's 64. Then again, his Jedi powers and all have probably slowed his aging somewhat.

Han, on the other hand, really ought to be showing his age.

[Jared]

This is probably revealing my not being very familiar with the Extended Universe, but has there ever been a good Jedi who turned just because he went bad? Not because of personal attachments? I mean, from what I've seen and read, the already-bad guys are inherently bad and the good guys who turn bad are always because of the attachments... which is weird. If I recall correctly, Dooku was the only one who went bad because he went bad, which stemmed from his disillusionment with the then-current system of things.


Jorus C'Baoth viewed Jedi as superior ot everyone else, superior to everyone else, and himself as superior to other Jedi. He was already a pompous jerk before he fell. His clone inherited his attitudes, and added some craziness.

Aurra Sing was a failed padawan captured by pirates and trained to be an assassin for crime lords.

Exar Kun was simply insatiable for knowledge and power.

[Lester C.]

This is probably revealing my not being very familiar with the Extended Universe, but has there ever been a good Jedi who turned just because he went bad? Not because of personal attachments? I mean, from what I've seen and read, the already-bad guys are inherently bad and the good guys who turn bad are always because of the attachments... which is weird. If I recall correctly, Dooku was the only one who went bad because he went bad, which stemmed from his disillusionment with the then-current system of things.


...There's a hundred year gap between Invincible and the Legacy comics. Lots of stories to tell. Just look at the sheer amount of stories between A New Hope and Invincible, and thats just under 50 years of time passed... holy crap but Luke is old now. He should be almost 70, no?

When Legacy the comic started it had no connection to Star Wars other than the fact it stared decendents of EU main characters. Well all the changes that took place in the Legacy novels that we hate particulay the ending of the final book sets up the Legacy comics. If they make any changes now, which is what would happen if we had many more books, then Legacy becomes a what if story rather than cannon.
I always figured was 18 in Star Wars, so add 46 years and he's 64. Then again, his Jedi powers and all have probably slowed his aging somewhat.

Han, on the other hand, really ought to be showing his age.

He was 19 so he's a senior citizen as he's 65 now.

[Rabid Trekkie]

When Legacy the comic started it had no connection to Star Wars other than the fact it stared decendents of EU main characters. Well all the changes that took place in the Legacy novels that we hate particulay the ending of the final book sets up the Legacy comics. If they make any changes now, which is what would happen if we had many more books, then Legacy becomes a what if story rather than cannon.

Actually it seemed to tie into the Yuuzhan Vong war a lot. Two or three of them even make an appearence in the Shards TPB. The Legacy novels (at least up to the second TPB, I don't get individual issues) may or may not have happened in the Legacy comic timeline.

I think the most concrete connection is a mention of a Sith group that refuses to help Lumiya and Jacen, but I'm not sure where that is mentioned and wookieepedia is giving me trouble.

[QuietRiver]

When Legacy the comic started it had no connection to Star Wars other than the fact it stared decendents of EU main characters. Well all the changes that took place in the Legacy novels that we hate particulay the ending of the final book sets up the Legacy comics. If they make any changes now, which is what would happen if we had many more books, then Legacy becomes a what if story rather than cannon.

Really? The main baddie from Legacy is a character from the Star Wars Republic comics, a connection to a time well before Anakin went all crazy. Besides, there're a whole slew of stories to be told on how the Legacy universe even came to where it is. Things like the Imperial Knights, or the House of Fel who all seem to be Force sensitive and decently powered, and where the hell the Solo line disappeared to despite the fact that at the end of Invincible we have Jacen's daughter and Jaina alive, or continuing the story of what the Skywalkers were up to dealing with all the shite going on. I mean, Jacen trying to conquer the galaxy and then the ending of the Legacy series wasn't the only set up to the Legacy comics. It was a set up, just not the set up.

Its entirely possible to write good stories and still fit things together. We don't really have any good information on the 100 years between the two Legacy series, so more books wouldn't really divert away from the Legacy comics.

...one day, I am going to smack my friends around for spoiling Legacy of the Force. I hate having knowledge of books I haven't read yet.

[Arrogantcur]

This is probably revealing my not being very familiar with the Extended Universe, but has there ever been a good Jedi who turned just because he went bad? Not because of personal attachments? I mean, from what I've seen and read, the already-bad guys are inherently bad and the good guys who turn bad are always because of the attachments... which is weird. If I recall correctly, Dooku was the only one who went bad because he went bad, which stemmed from his disillusionment with the then-current system of things.

I guess Jaina would be a bad example, because she went dark very briefly after Anakin's death and that was a personal attachment. Yoda would have told her to rejoice for Anakin since he had joined the Force, if he'd been around. (Lines like that from ROTS make me glad the Old Republic Jedi got wiped out, btw. :evilangry: )

As for Kyp (who I like despite him being a KJA creation), I believe he turned dark more due to Exar Kun whispering in his ear than because of personal attachments.

Brakiss had some kind of experience when he took the same "cave-test" Luke did in ESB, and it shook him up badly. From what I read in the novel The New Rebellion I think he was angry at Luke for putting him through that, even though Luke couldn't have known how traumatic it would be for him, and that's what made him go dark and found the Shadow Academy and whatever else he did.

Wookieepedia says that Kam Solusar was captured, tortured, and kind of brainwashed into being a dark jedi. So that had nothing to do with attachments.

Luke was willing to give all three of those guys a second chance (he accepted Kyp and Kam, and he almost convinced Brakiss to abandon the dark path and make peace in The New Rebellion).

As opposed to Alema Rar, who turned dark partly due to the trauma she suffered and partly due to killiks and Lomi Plo messing with her head. They really should have tried to deprogram Alema, I feel, but instead Luke and Leia wound up severing parts of her in various fights before leaving her stranded on whatever world the Dark Nest series concluded on. Not cool at all, and far too much like how Obi-Wan severed Anakin Skywalker's limbs and then stood idly by while he burned up instead of helping him.

Luke went dark for a time because he was trying to infiltrate clone-Palpatine's operation in Dark Empire, but underestimated how difficult it would be to stay on the light side while spending so much time with Palps. So that didn't really have to do with personal attachments as much as what he was exposed to.

[QuietRiver]

Heh. So I really just missed out on a bunch of light side Jedi turning dark.

[Arrogantcur]

Heh. So I really just missed out on a bunch of light side Jedi turning dark.

Oh yeah, it happens all the time. :tongue:

What I don't like is when they're written off as irredeemable and either killed or maimed by their former friends. Contrary to what some of the characters say in the Dark Nest books, it IS possible to imprison a Force-user and keep them imprisoned until they're rehabilitated. They've successfully done that with Raynar Thul. So the only time lethal force seems justified to me is when there is no other option whatsoever and it's a case of "kill or be killed."

Even now, we've seen Tahiri go bad and then come back from it. Which is good, because that is a character I have loved since NJO and if it had ended differently I'd be VERY upset.

[Jared]

Well, there does seem to be a difference between merely going bad and going full blown Sith Bad.

Though I wonder, what hapened to the Ysalmari, the creatures than can nullify others' Force powers. Luke knows about them, they sure would be useful in imprisoning Dark Siders. For that matter, Pelleaon knows about them too, why didn't have the Imperal Remnant stock up?

[Lester C.]

Well, there does seem to be a difference between merely going bad and going full blown Sith Bad.

Though I wonder, what hapened to the Ysalmari, the creatures than can nullify others' Force powers. Luke knows about them, they sure would be useful in imprisoning Dark Siders. For that matter, Pelleaon knows about them too, why didn't have the Imperal Remnant stock up?


Going bad is a dark Jedi. A dark Jedi is the same person that a Jedi is, only acting as a total bastard. A sith is a former Jedi reborn that undergoes a total physical and psychological transformation. The person, more accurately the personality they were before dies and a new personality is born with the old personality’s memories but is a separate entity from the Jedi that came before.


Of course this is my take on it and is hardly cannon.

[QuietRiver]

Going bad is a dark Jedi. A dark Jedi is the same person that a Jedi is, only acting as a total bastard. A sith is a former Jedi reborn that undergoes a total physical and psychological transformation. The person, more accurately the personality they were before dies and a new personality is born with the old personality’s memories but is a separate entity from the Jedi that came before.


Of course this is my take on it and is hardly cannon.

You know, I never really thought of thinking as Sith conversions in this way, but I like it. It would account for why personalities change so drastically after becoming Sith.

...everytime I type Sith, I end up spelling it out as 'sh!t' first. I wonder if that's how the big GL came up with the name.

[Arrogantcur]

...everytime I type Sith, I end up spelling it out as 'sh!t' first. I wonder if that's how the big GL came up with the name.

No matter how he thought of it, the similarity to "shit" has been a source of many, many, many jokes. :rolleyes:

Going bad is a dark Jedi. A dark Jedi is the same person that a Jedi is, only acting as a total bastard. A sith is a former Jedi reborn that undergoes a total physical and psychological transformation. The person, more accurately the personality they were before dies and a new personality is born with the old personality’s memories but is a separate entity from the Jedi that came before.

As we saw with Vader, it's not irreversible. Yoda and Obi-Wan were wrong when they said there was nothing of Anakin left, meaning that it is possible--if not likely--that they were wrong about a lot of other stuff as well.

Though I wonder, what hapened to the Ysalmari, the creatures than can nullify others' Force powers. Luke knows about them, they sure would be useful in imprisoning Dark Siders. For that matter, Pelleaon knows about them too, why didn't have the Imperal Remnant stock up?

That's a really good question. Either Denning didn't think of it, or he remembered ysalamiri and decided to make all the characters not think of them in order to set up an escape and ultimately the fight where Alema gets her lekku chopped off.

Either way, it lowers my opinion of him as a writer.

[xbox360gurl70s]

any good star wars comic book artist you guys can recommend? I often see them sucking comics of starwars badly drawn by some unknown artist, the novels were all paintings, not to shabby for me:confused:

[hayabusa]

Dustin Weaver, Doug Wheately and Jan Duursema are my personal top three comic artists.

[ChrisIII]

Yeah, Duuresama's probably the best SW artist. She's actually been doing SW since the 80's, where she did some of the stuff from the later Marvel run.

[Lester C.]

Maybe it's because I only have trades, but Dark Horse's choice of writers and Artists for their Star Wars stuff never fails to impress.

[Arrogantcur]

I dunno, I thought that Veitch made Fett look pretty bad...

[Dr. Ghost]

I hated the art in the first issues of the "Vector" crossover.
That jedi chick that's a sleeper agent or whatever looked like she had one of those diseases that distort/twist your face.

but the majority of sw comics i've read has good enough art.

[Bill Thompson]

That's a really good question. Either Denning didn't think of it, or he remembered ysalamiri and decided to make all the characters not think of them in order to set up an escape and ultimately the fight where Alema gets her lekku chopped off.

Either way, it lowers my opinion of him as a writer.

They are gone, thanks to the Vong. In their craze to make a new species of Jedi hinting animals the Vong ended up killing off the ysalamiri in any significant numbers. While the Vonskers, can't think of the correct name right now, that they created were completely wiped out the ysalamiri were shrunk in numbers so much that they wouldn't have been of any aid to anyone.

As for Luke using them, how is he supposed to use a species that drains his own powers? He can't use them to detain dark siders because they work against him as well.

[Arrogantcur]

They are gone, thanks to the Vong. In their craze to make a new species of Jedi hinting animals the Vong ended up killing off the ysalamiri in any significant numbers. While the Vonskers, can't think of the correct name right now, that they created were completely wiped out the ysalamiri were shrunk in numbers so much that they wouldn't have been of any aid to anyone.

As for Luke using them, how is he supposed to use a species that drains his own powers? He can't use them to detain dark siders because they work against him as well.

Ah, but nobody says only Jedi have to guard the person by themselves. It could be people who aren't Force-sensitive. The Force-user would be unable to escape easily, and would also be unaccustomed to getting by without the Force, whereas their guards would be used to it.

Also, why would the Vong wipe out the ysalamiri? I'd think ysalamiri would be useful to them against the Jedi. More useful than voxyn, perhaps.

[Bill Thompson]

Ah, but nobody says only Jedi have to guard the person by themselves. It could be people who aren't Force-sensitive. The Force-user would be unable to escape easily, and would also be unaccustomed to getting by without the Force, whereas their guards would be used to it.

Also, why would the Vong wipe out the ysalamiri? I'd think ysalamiri would be useful to them against the Jedi. More useful than voxyn, perhaps.

Since Jedi training requires you to be adept as a fighter beyond just using the Force, that scenario really doesn't hold up. Jedi that rely solely on the Force usually aren't long for their world.

It's called trial and error, they wanted to create a super hunter and killer. They did so, but it took a lot of train and error to do as such and they almost completely wiped the ysalamiri from the face of the galaxy in the process. How would the ysalamiri be more useful than the voxyn? The voxyn were natural hunter/predators that not only affected the powers of Jedi but would kill them. They were the attack dogs to the ysalamiri's poodle.

[Arrogantcur]

Since Jedi training requires you to be adept as a fighter beyond just using the Force, that scenario really doesn't hold up. Jedi that rely solely on the Force usually aren't long for their world.

It's called trial and error, they wanted to create a super hunter and killer. They did so, but it took a lot of train and error to do as such and they almost completely wiped the ysalamiri from the face of the galaxy in the process. How would the ysalamiri be more useful than the voxyn? The voxyn were natural hunter/predators that not only affected the powers of Jedi but would kill them. They were the attack dogs to the ysalamiri's poodle.

With Jedi fighting skills, it's really kind of moot. Being Force-sensitive since birth, I would think that Jedi had always relied on their ability to sense danger to a certain degree, even when they were learning hand to hand combat. To suddenly be deprived of that would be like you or I losing our sense of hearing or losing the sight in one eye and trying to fight just as effectively afterwards. We might be able to do okay, but we'd be handicapped.

Also, there are plenty of people in prisons right now who are probably good fighters and would be able to take any one of their guards in a fair contest. But it isn't fair. The guards have weapons, the prisoners are inside cells, the prisoners often have shackles on, etc. The guards would also outnumber a single prisoner trying to fight his way free and would gang up on him.

A Jedi prisoner would face the same obstacles.

I looked at Wookieepedia btw and it says nothing there about ysalamiri being either extinct or endangered in the ysalamiri entry or the Myrkr entry. Can you tell me where you read this?

As for voxyn, they weren't able to neutralize Jedi powers. They were just able to sniff Jedi out and were vicious enough to be able to kill them despite their Force skills.

Ysalamiri, by contrast, make Force-users just as helpless as ordinary people. An army of Vong with ysalamiri strapped to their backs would create an anti-Force bubble so large that the every Jedi who came near them in a mile radius (or whatever) would not only have to deal with being unable to sense the Vong in the Force but would have to try to fight without most of the abilities they'd come to rely on such as being able to levitate or propel objects, Force-assisted leaps and bounds, the quickness that comes from drawing on the Force, etc.

[hayabusa]

Wow... have any of you read this list? (http://www.ugo.com/games/star-wars-expanded-universe-characters-worst/) What a load some of these entries seem to be. Lowbacca?! Jodo Kast?! Droma?!

Edit: After reading further, it's obvious that list is just a joke, or at least it should be.

[Sabrina_Fried]

Wow... have any of you read this list? (http://www.ugo.com/games/star-wars-expanded-universe-characters-worst/) What a load some of these entries seem to be. Lowbacca?! Jodo Kast?! Droma?!

Edit: After reading further, it's obvious that list is just a joke, or at least it should be.

I got about 5 characters into their "best" list before I gave up. I mean, #1 is a character whose book/comic/video game extravaganza isn't even out yet and for the love of all that is decent Qwi Xux is somehow considered one of the best characters in the EU? I mean really, if they were pulling my leg, they could have tried harder.

Sabrina

[Jared_Humpherys]

Yeah, I completely disagree with a lot of that. Kreia as one of the WORST Star Wars characters? I couldn't disagree more. And a worst characters list that makes fun of Lowbacca, but forgets Lumpy from the Holiday Special?

Yeah, they're wrong.

[Jared_Humpherys]

Since Jedi training requires you to be adept as a fighter beyond just using the Force, that scenario really doesn't hold up. Jedi that rely solely on the Force usually aren't long for their world.

It's called trial and error, they wanted to create a super hunter and killer. They did so, but it took a lot of train and error to do as such and they almost completely wiped the ysalamiri from the face of the galaxy in the process. How would the ysalamiri be more useful than the voxyn? The voxyn were natural hunter/predators that not only affected the powers of Jedi but would kill them. They were the attack dogs to the ysalamiri's poodle.

The voxyn were not created from ysalamari, but rather, from their predators, the vornskr(combined with fero xyn traits).

Now, said voxyn might have eaten a lot of ysalamari, but I'm not aware of such a thing.

finally, a voxyn does net repel the force in an area. It can, however, mask its own force presence, and sense Jedi through the force.

[Jared]

With Jedi fighting skills, it's really kind of moot. Being Force-sensitive since birth, I would think that Jedi had always relied on their ability to sense danger to a certain degree, even when they were learning hand to hand combat. To suddenly be deprived of that would be like you or I losing our sense of hearing or losing the sight in one eye and trying to fight just as effectively afterwards. We might be able to do okay, but we'd be handicapped.

As I recall, Luke did alright the first time it happened to him. He realized he couldn't block blaster shots, so he took cover behind a pillar and then chopped it down onto some stormtroopers.

[Arrogantcur]

Wow... have any of you read this list? (http://www.ugo.com/games/star-wars-expanded-universe-characters-worst/) What a load some of these entries seem to be. Lowbacca?! Jodo Kast?! Droma?!

Edit: After reading further, it's obvious that list is just a joke, or at least it should be.

Kast would've been good if he'd been given a better death. The story in which he got killed was called "Twin Engines of Destruction", right? An engine of destruction shouldn't be so easily subdued and humiliated by Fett before getting executed.

EDIT: Luuke wasn't so much a "character" as he was a "thing". Characters have minds, and Luuke was just kind of a flesh golem thingy that was totally controlled by C'baoth.

ANOTHER EDIT: Looking at the "best" list...

I agree that Ghent is cool.

Wessiri I'm indifferent towards.

Rendar was okay.

I don't consider Omas all that important; he's nowhere near as interesting a politician character as Borsk Fey'lya was.

Soontir Fel is awesomeness personified.

Isolder is not good enough to be on the list, although he's more important than Omas.

Tendra may not have appeared very often since the Corellian trilogy, but I've always liked her nevertheless.

Qwi has never had a huge role in things unless you count the stuff she was duped into doing. So she made the two-backed beast with Wedge, big deal. If it hadn't been her it would've been somebody else.

Elegos was pretty cool. It takes balls or ovaries of steel to hand yourself over to the Vong in an attempt to negotiate a peace treaty, and subsequently endure everything they do to you without breaking. OK, ultimately he died, but he was willing to try something nobody else was just for a chance at averting a horribly bloody war, and for that he deserves respect.

I liked Ganner. He wasn't a typical Jedi, he wasn't always a total asshole, and he died nobly.

I love Tahiri.

Thrackan's always been a pitiful villain, so he shouldn't be on the list.

Onimi? I don't know...he's an important character, but not a great one IMO.

Okay, Bel Iblis is pretty cool. He rightfully belongs on the list.

So does Fey'lya. He's often been a jerk, but is kind of like J. Jonah Jameson in that he'll sometimes surprise you by doing something decent. Plus, he died bravely and took out a whole lot of Vong in the process.

Booster ain't all that special IMO.

Winter is slightly more special than Booster.

Saba is a bitch who treats Leia like shit while training her as a Jedi and for that reason I do not like her. Boo.

Tenel Ka's role in the EU was kind of minimal up until her affair with Jacen, which started the Legacy mess.

Lumiya...oh god, I wish I'd never read the name.

Darth Bane's pretty badass.

I like Vergere and do not like how she was retroactively turned into a bad guy following her death.

Jag Fel does belong here.

I'll stop going down the list for now. It seems to me that they should've made this a top ten list instead of a top fifty, because there aren't fifty really good characters in the EU. A lot of the characters on this list are filler.

[Lester C.]

I don't think this list is fair because of all the medium these characters appear in. Ofcourse a character in a novel is going to be far more dimensional than a supporting character in a video game.

[ChrisIII]

http://www.starwars.com/vault/books/news20080912.html


There's a new book series coming out, Fate of the Jedi. Allston and Denning are back, but this time Karen Traviss (Who seems to be busy with the Clone Wars stuff) has been replaced by Christie Golden, whose credits seem to be mostly Star Trek Voyager novels.


It will apparentally be all hardcover, a first for Del Rey's SW sagas.

Although I'm not really into SW these days, my guess is this will at least partially bridge the gap between LOTF and the Legacy comic series.

[QuietRiver]

http://www.starwars.com/vault/books/news20080912.html


There's a new book series coming out, Fate of the Jedi. Allston and Denning are back, but this time Karen Traviss (Who seems to be busy with the Clone Wars stuff) has been replaced by Christie Golden, whose credits seem to be mostly Star Trek Voyager novels.


It will apparentally be all hardcover, a first for Del Rey's SW sagas.

Although I'm not really into SW these days, my guess is this will at least partially bridge the gap between LOTF and the Legacy comic series.
Gah! I really don't like the cycling authors thing they're continuing. I'd rather they, at the very least, block the authors(3 consecutive books, then switch). It makes things more coherent, instead of style, goal, and plot shifting each book.

[Sabrina_Fried]

Well, I'm happy to hear that the novels contract is finally resolved. I only hope that in the next book series the authors involved work together to tell the same story this time.

Sabrina

[Sean Walsh]

....and meanwhile, 1 book will kinda delve into the post-ROTS/pre-ANH era, and then quickly return to the rest of story about Count Dooku vs. Anakin.

[Dr. Ghost]

did you guys like vector prime?

i bought it on a whim a while back, but i haven't opened it yet; not 'cause of lack of interest, i've just been busy.

[Jared]

I'm kind of hoping Del Ray stays away from trying to set up Legacy too much. And they seem to do better with stand alones and short series, rather than these mega sagas that are nine books or more.

Has anyone read the Force Unleashed novel?

[Sabrina_Fried]

Has anyone read the Force Unleashed novel?

Nope, TFU is definitley a wait for paperback book for me but then, so are all hardcovers these days. Someone forgot to tell Del Rey that the Canadian dollar has been nearly at par with the USD for almost a year now so it's about time they change their prices.

Sabrina

[Lester C.]

Fans did not like the Legacy novels. They hated the ending so much so that the Mellenum Falcon book has to adress certain plot points from that series. I don't think that releasing the next nine novels as hardcovers is going to rebuild the fanbase faith in the EU and they will bomb sales wise.

[Sean Walsh]

Has anyone read the Force Unleashed novel?

I started reading it this morning. 30 pages in, and so far it's not awful.

While everyone (both Lucas and the fans) seems to be focusing on the Clone Wars and post-post-post-ROTJ, I'm trying to keep myself to the Dark Times era(post-ROTS/pre-ANH).

I've been waiting many years to see stories told in this timeframe. While we haven't gotten much (Dark Times, Purge, Coruscant Nights, TFU), I like what I've seen so far. The prequels kinda changed how I viewed the period, but it's essentially what I always wanted to see: Vader running around for 20 years hunting and exterminating Jedi. :smile:

(Oh, and I try to stick to the original trilogy era too...)

[Sabrina_Fried]

Fans did not like the Legacy novels. They hated the ending so much so that the Mellenum Falcon book has to adress certain plot points from that series. I don't think that releasing the next nine novels as hardcovers is going to rebuild the fanbase faith in the EU and they will bomb sales wise.

Never mind the fact that with the economy about to go south in a big way, I think buying pricey hardcovers will be a big roadblock for a lot of fans.

But if there is one thing I have never been able to accurately predict, its the capacity of Star Wars fans to buy overpriced stuff just because it has the Star Wars name one it.

Sabrina

[Bruce Wayne Jr.]

Fans did not like the Legacy novels.

Damn skippy. Curious fans should know that, of the 9, Tempest and Inferno are particularly good.

[Sabrina_Fried]

I thought Betrayal was a decent read and laid down a lot of potential for a good book series. It quickly went downhill from there.

I haven't even read the last book of LOTF yet, I'm waiting for the paperback. From what I hear from people who have read it, I haven't missed much.

Sabrina

[Ben Akers]

The series as a whole was up and down for me. There were times when I couldn't put books down and times when I didn't really feel like bothering. My biggest problem was that I thought the last book was a bit too short. Adding some extra pages, particularly near the end might have helped it.

Nevertheless, I am one of those "buy anything with Star Wars on the cover" fans

[Lester C.]

Damn skippy. Curious fans should know that, of the 9, Tempest and Inferno are particularly good.

The novels themselves were well written. What ticked me off, and a lot of other people off, is how characters reacted to events within the novels. The EU has been ruined, at least that's my take on it.
Also each author seemed to be writing their own series rather than nine integrated novels.

[hayabusa]

For me, the quality lowered every three books, starting with the second one.

[Bruce Wayne Jr.]

I honestly think if they had reined in Karen Traviss a bit more and worked towards a tighter cohesion, we could have gotten something much better.

The last book feels terribly rushed, but the premise of the series wasn't bad at all. Wasted potential, in the end.

[Sean Walsh]

Whenever the subject of post-NJO (and now post-LOTF) books comes up with my friends, I reply with the same thing:

"Still haven't finished Vector Prime."

And considering I sold Vector Prime a couple years ago now.........well, clearly I've retired from reading books about old Luke & Han & Leia...


BTW - checked out the first 2 pages of Dark Horse's The Force Unleashed graphic novel this morning......and I immediately regretted doing so, since I'm only 80 pages into the novel.

[Sabrina_Fried]

I honestly think if they had reined in Karen Traviss a bit more and worked towards a tighter cohesion, we could have gotten something much better.

The last book feels terribly rushed, but the premise of the series wasn't bad at all. Wasted potential, in the end.

Funny you should mention that. Apparently Aaron Allston and Troy Denning, and a third author that is new to Star Wars as far as I can tell, are writing Fate of the Jedi. Karen Traviss has absolutely nothing to do with that project. Whether that's because they'll have her working on other things or whether the Del Rey people have finally noticed what you mentioned above, who can say?

Sabrina

[Jared]

Traviss is set to do some more Clone Wars tie-in books, and the the Republic Commando series will continue as Imperial Commando. Whatever the reason, at least it looks like Del Ray will be playing to her strengths for awhile.

There's going to be third Darth Bane book. I really liked the first one, but haven't read the second yet. I also to check out Coruscant Nights.

[DonC]

BTW - checked out the first 2 pages of Dark Horse's The Force Unleashed graphic novel this morning......and I immediately regretted doing so, since I'm only 80 pages into the novel.


Yeah, I get the feeling that's a one-or-the-other thing, not both. I read the graphic novel and I'm trying to read the novel, but I'm finding a complete lack on interest. Of course I think a big part of the problem is that the story isn't very good.

[Arrogantcur]

The novels themselves were well written. What ticked me off, and a lot of other people off, is how characters reacted to events within the novels. The EU has been ruined, at least that's my take on it.
Also each author seemed to be writing their own series rather than nine integrated novels.

I expressed this sentiment before in Traviss' Yahoo group, which pissed her off btw: sometimes there are just too many cooks and the soup gets ruined, which is what happened in parts of the NJO series and also accounted for certain inconsistencies in LotF.

As for the EU being ruined? It sure has.

Luke's Jedi Order is being transformed into a copy of the old one, with "younglings" and worries about "attachment" and such, and that's no good in my view. I have to wonder whether Mara being killed was a way for Traviss to get rid of Luke's marriage; she's on record as saying that she thinks Jedi shouldn't fall in love and get married, and having a hand in this series offered her the perfect opportunity to pull a Quesada.

Good characters have either been ruined, gotten killed, or both. The cast of the EU had grown around the characters from the OT, and one by one we've seen that cast cut down. And the poor Solos...maybe we ought to start a pool on when Jaina's number finally comes up.

From the beginning of LotF I hoped, I assumed, that Jacen would eventually be brought back to the light as Vader was, as Kyp was, as his sister was, as Luke was. The treatment of this character both saddens me and pisses me off; not only did they kill him off, but they first made him both evil and stupid. I believe the blame for this lies with Denning, who first started to write Jacen as Sith-y in the Dark Nest trilogy and, IIRC, pitched the idea for Legacy as well.

And they almost ruined Tahiri too. :evilangry:

[Lester C.]

I expressed this sentiment before in Traviss' Yahoo group, which pissed her off btw: sometimes there are just too many cooks and the soup gets ruined, which is what happened in parts of the NJO series and also accounted for certain inconsistencies in LotF.

As for the EU being ruined? It sure has.

Luke's Jedi Order is being transformed into a copy of the old one, with "younglings" and worries about "attachment" and such, and that's no good in my view. I have to wonder whether Mara being killed was a way for Traviss to get rid of Luke's marriage; she's on record as saying that she thinks Jedi shouldn't fall in love and get married, and having a hand in this series offered her the perfect opportunity to pull a Quesada.

Good characters have either been ruined, gotten killed, or both. The cast of the EU had grown around the characters from the OT, and one by one we've seen that cast cut down. And the poor Solos...maybe we ought to start a pool on when Jaina's number finally comes up.

From the beginning of LotF I hoped, I assumed, that Jacen would eventually be brought back to the light as Vader was, as Kyp was, as his sister was, as Luke was. The treatment of this character both saddens me and pisses me off; not only did they kill him off, but they first made him both evil and stupid. I believe the blame for this lies with Denning, who first started to write Jacen as Sith-y in the Dark Nest trilogy and, IIRC, pitched the idea for Legacy as well.

And they almost ruined Tahiri too. :evilangry:

In an interview in one of the paperbacks Traviss is on record as the one that came up with the idea of killing Mara, but I forgot her reasoning as to why.

[Arrogantcur]

In an interview in one of the paperbacks Traviss is on record as the one that came up with the idea of killing Mara, but I forgot her reasoning as to why.

Yeah, she said that she came up with the idea of Jacen having to kill somebody he loved in order to become a Sith. She never said anything in that interview about doing it in order to dissolve the Skywalker marriage so that Luke could be all alone and unattached like Kenobi was, but if that was her reason I doubt she would have told anybody. What her, as well as Allston and Denning, talk about mainly is the dramatic effect of somebody important getting killed.

I wish they'd settled on somebody other than Mara (and so does Timothy Zahn, who really should have been consulted first). Back when Jacen was presented with the challenge to kill somebody important to him I was really worried that he'd kill Tenel Ka, or his daughter. But now, knowing it was Mara? I wish it had been Tenel Ka! :frown:

At least Mara was killed before some writer decided to screw around with her character, though. Jacen and Alema Rar weren't so lucky, and I'm worried about what will ultimately be done to Ben and Tahiri.

If somebody is going to go bad, they should at least have a good reason. Jacen didn't. His whole slide into Sith-dom was because he:

1. Wanted to learn to use Sith powers, as if he thought doing so would make him somehow unbeatable (it never does), and thus was worth any price. A lot of the tricks he uses, such as flow-walking, aren't based in Sith teachings at all. He already knew enough that he didn't need to learn from a Sith.

2. Thought that the Corellians had to be beaten at any cost, that they had no right to secede from the Galactic Alliance. Never mind that the Galactic Alliance was born out of people who wanted to secede from the New Republic, including him, so his thinking of secessionists as evil or big threats to the galaxy is gross hypocrisy.

You could make the argument that being tortured affected his mind, but in previous stories he was FINE. He had been able to retain his values and his sanity after escaping. He wasn't an evil bastard, and there is no reason why some time bomb in his head would go off five or ten years after the end of the war (depending on whether you think his transformation began in the Dark Nest books or in this latest series) and he'd become an evil bastard.

[Sabrina_Fried]

I expressed this sentiment before in Traviss' Yahoo group, which pissed her off btw: sometimes there are just too many cooks and the soup gets ruined, which is what happened in parts of the NJO series and also accounted for certain inconsistencies in LotF.

As for the EU being ruined? It sure has.

Luke's Jedi Order is being transformed into a copy of the old one, with "younglings" and worries about "attachment" and such, and that's no good in my view. I have to wonder whether Mara being killed was a way for Traviss to get rid of Luke's marriage; she's on record as saying that she thinks Jedi shouldn't fall in love and get married, and having a hand in this series offered her the perfect opportunity to pull a Quesada.

Good characters have either been ruined, gotten killed, or both. The cast of the EU had grown around the characters from the OT, and one by one we've seen that cast cut down. And the poor Solos...maybe we ought to start a pool on when Jaina's number finally comes up.

From the beginning of LotF I hoped, I assumed, that Jacen would eventually be brought back to the light as Vader was, as Kyp was, as his sister was, as Luke was. The treatment of this character both saddens me and pisses me off; not only did they kill him off, but they first made him both evil and stupid. I believe the blame for this lies with Denning, who first started to write Jacen as Sith-y in the Dark Nest trilogy and, IIRC, pitched the idea for Legacy as well.

And they almost ruined Tahiri too. :evilangry:

And yet I think it is a valid cricicism. LOTF was a perfect example of what happens when storytelling by committee gets out of hand. But then, I'd probably be pesona non grata on any Traviss fansite or message board having publically stated more than once that I haven't liked anything she has written since the first Republic Commando book (and even that one was more of an "it's alright, I suppose").

As for the EU being ruined, I agree that it's been screwed over royally with the killing of decent characters and such, but for me, the biggest offense is that there isn't much diversity left in the contemporary stories. They are all either stories about Jedi doing Jedi Things, or stories about Sith doing Sith things. Where are the regular joes of the galaxy? Where are the people who formed a rebellion to bring down the Empire without having any significant talent with the Force worth mentioning? Where are the people who lived on the home front as the Old Republic was taken away from them, but not in a Jedi Temple or a Clone Training facility? We see a bit of that with the Coruscant Nights books, but even there the main character is an ex-Jedi stuggling with his closet Jediness. And the Republic Commando books are about a bunch of meat droids trying not to be meat droids, and ex-Jedi struggling with their closet Jediness. (Apologies in advance to anyone offended by the term meat droids...but its the only one that really seems apprpriate).

As for Jaina, I wager she gets it in the Fate of the Jedi. Either they knock her off, or ruin her to the point where there is no reason to tell any further stories about her.

Sabrina

[Jared]

(Apologies in advance to anyone offended by the term meat droids...but its the only one that really seems apprpriate).

Must not offend any members of the clone community on the board. :biggrin:

Mara Jade was probably the most famous character that LOTF could kill off, and really, after providing the continuation of the Skywalker name, there was nothing left for the character to do. Everything that made her interesting went away once she was reformed enough to became Luke's wife. I think they never should have been married. Like Catwoman or Elektra, she works best as a love that the hero can't be with long-term.


Anyway, my EU advice: forget the latest novels (except the upcoming Shadows of Mindor) and just check out the Legacy comics.

[Arrogantcur]

Mara Jade was probably the most famous character that LOTF could kill off, and really, after providing the continuation of the Skywalker name, there was nothing left for the character to do.

If you believe that, you could make the same argument about Luke. Luke has been around forever, is pushing 60, and it's really time for him to pass the torch to the next generation.

There is something left for Luke to do, actually: raise Ben. Which is also something Mara had left to do, come to think of it.

Why is Mara considered expendable after a certain point and Luke isn't? Movie character > EU character, despite the fact that we haven't had a movie as good as the best EU stories since 1983?

And yet I think it is a valid cricicism. LOTF was a perfect example of what happens when storytelling by committee gets out of hand. But then, I'd probably be pesona non grata on any Traviss fansite or message board having publically stated more than once that I haven't liked anything she has written since the first Republic Commando book (and even that one was more of an "it's alright, I suppose").

Yeah, after I while I ended up being "persona non grata" too. *sigh*

As for the EU being ruined, I agree that it's been screwed over royally with the killing of decent characters and such, but for me, the biggest offense is that there isn't much diversity left in the contemporary stories. They are all either stories about Jedi doing Jedi Things, or stories about Sith doing Sith things. Where are the regular joes of the galaxy?

You know, swear to God, I was thinking something exactly like that recently. I would like to read characters who behave just like regular people, characters who may or may not happen to have a lightsaber and telekinesis and so forth.

I don't want to read about monk-like people who have stupid phobias about attachment.

I don't want to read about people who think that it's perfectly all right to take a kid away from his parents and raise him to be a sexless and emotionless droid (as Darth Bane once described the Jedi life when he was still a lowly cortosis miner). To put that in perspective, that is like if the Catholic Church were to ask people to give them babies who would be raised from infancy to become priests, rather than allowing people to make that choice in adulthood.

I don't want to read about children being pelted with fruit and yelled at and called names as a part of their training (which was part of what we saw in the Dark Nest books) in order to train them to never lose their temper. That's not "training", that's abuse.

In the days before and during the Vong War, before the prequels came out and authors got a whole different idea of how a Jedi Order should look I guess, Jedi were pretty much regular joes with lightsabers and telekinesis. Luke acted like a normal person and he wasn't a harsh teacher or anything. He let his students make their own decisions, and when one of them went dark (like Kyp, or Brakiss), he tried to bring that person back. I could relate to the Jedi pretty well, and I could relate to Luke pretty well. Then in Dark Nest Alema Rar turned bad and Luke's approach was to NOT try to bring her back, to cripple her with his lightsaber instead. Later his sister would slice off one of her lekku. Ironically, Alema's fall wasn't even really her own choice (being influenced as she was by the Gorog), and yet instead of anybody trying to redeem her, she was punished. Kind of like Anakin Skywalker was punished and left to burn to death by Obi-Wan, who made no effort to save him as Luke would do a couple of decades later. (Despite what Traviss and I have disagreed on and despite me getting kicked out of her Yahoo group, I do respect the fact that she considers that particular action--or inaction--by Obi-Wan as appalling as I do and has said so.) So Luke was turning into the Obi-Wan of the prequels.

I re-read Allston's Wraith Squadron books earlier this year and enjoyed them more than anything in Legacy of the Force I'd read. Aside from Wedge and some appearances by Han, the characters were people who weren't in the movies, and aside from Tyria none of the characters were Force-sensitive. These were regular people (aside from them having strange senses of humour of course, as so many of Allston's characters do), non-Jedi. I liked them better than the Jedi of the recent novels and definitely more than any Jedi in the prequel era, precisely because they were regular people.

As for Jaina, I wager she gets it in the Fate of the Jedi. Either they knock her off, or ruin her to the point where there is no reason to tell any further stories about her.

Oh god, please be joking. :frown:

EDIT TO CLARIFY:

...we haven't had a movie as good as the best EU stories since 1983...

The best EU stories IMO have been Zahn's Thrawn trilogy, Allston's Wraith Squadron books, Survivor's Quest by Zahn, Luceno's first two-part contribution to NJO and his Dark Lord, and Perry's Shadows of the Empire, and certain stories from the various anthologies which I don't feel like listing right now. If somebody tells me that any of those stories are of lower quality than one of the prequel movies, I'd really have to wonder about that person's taste in entertainment. Sorry.

[Jared]

Start questioning, because I'd put the Thrawn Trilogy below Revenge of the Sith, without hesitation. It actually shares many of the problems of the prequels (especially Ep I): too many scenes of people talking rather than doing. Lifeless political intrigue. Demystification of the Force. Seriously, Zahn writes about Jedi powers as if he's cribbing from an RPG book. It does have it's good qualities, but that trilogy is viewed by and large with rose-colored glasses, because of when, not how, it was written.



Arrogantcur, it may not be fair, but it's just reality. Luke is by far a more important character to the franchise than Mara or any other EU original. If he died the way that she did, people would have burned down Del Ray's HQ.

Mara used to be the former enemy/prospective love interest. Making her into a doting Mrs. Skywalker pretty much removed anything interesting to do with the character, whereas with Luke, we can him growing into the Yoda role of the NJO.

[Arrogantcur]

Start questioning, because I'd put the Thrawn Trilogy below Revenge of the Sith, without hesitation. It actually shares many of the problems of the prequels (especially Ep I): too many scenes of people talking rather than doing. Lifeless political intrigue. Demystification of the Force. Seriously, Zahn writes about Jedi powers as if he's cribbing from an RPG book. It does have it's good qualities, but that trilogy is viewed by and large with rose-colored glasses, because of when, not how, it was written.

When you say "demystification of the Force" I assume you're referrring to the ysalamiri. Just my opinion, but it doesn't bother me that there are animals that are immune to the Force and push it back. On the contrary, I think it's good for the same reason I think that Kryptonite was good for Superman.

I think Thrawn was a better villain than Palpatine and certainly a better villain than Anakin, because he wasn't a cackling caricature of a bad guy (which Palps very much looked like during the whole fight with Yoda). Thrawn almost never lost his temper and did something rash as Anakin did. Plus you know that with Thrawn there never has been and never will be a "NOOOOO!" scene.

The characters in the Thrawn trilogy are likeable. We know them from the movies and their characterization is true to how they acted in the OT (as opposed to, say, the Black Fleet books where Luke collapses a building on top of his droid in the first one, just because he wants to get rid of the building and can't be bothered to get the droid out first. Very out of character, since Luke always treated R2 and 3PO with respect and sympathy).

The characters in ROTS are not likeable, with the possible exception of Padme. Obi-Wan leaves his opponent to burn alive, a fate I would not wish on anybody. If that's the kind of thing the old Jedi did to their enemies, I'm glad--and I truly mean this--I'm GLAD that they all got killed off. :mad:

Anakin is a shitty villain. He has no logical motivation for doing what he does, and you can only explain so much of that away by saying "oh, that's because the dark side was making him CRAAAAZZZZYYYY..."

That's a copout. It's utterly retarded for him to first say to himself "I'm willing to sacrifice everything and everybody because this guy Palpatine tells me that he can keep Padme alive forever, and Palpatine would never LIE to me about something like that..." and then go "Padme, you bitch! Obi-Wan's with you, and that means that you brought him here, and that means that you're on his side, and that means that I'm going to strangle you with the Force! I don't believe you when you say he stowed away! You're lying to me! Unlike Palpatine, whom I know always tells me the truth!"

Come....ON.... :rolleyes:

Compare that with the Thrawn trilogy, where Thrawn's motivation for attacking the New Republic is at the worst unclear. You can guess at his motivation though, and there are several logical possibilities for him doing this. Perhaps Thrawn came to believe in the Imperial system and figured that the galaxy needed an Imperial government to survive. Or perhaps Thrawn was unwilling to accept defeat, particularly in a war he'd been absent from for a while. Or perhaps he foresaw (you don't need the Force to do that) that if he didn't fight to keep the Empire alive it would become the pitifully tiny Imperial Remnant on the maps in the NJO books. That sort of thing would be tough for somebody proud of their adopted country (or whatever you call a galactic organization like this) to accept, so maybe he decided to do something about it.

And how can you not love his tactics? Cloaking asteroids and shooting them at Coruscant. Using the mole miners to capture a whole fleet of ships, which almost worked and in the end still was a partial victory for him because the NR was forced to choose between destroying their own ships--and thus weakening themselves--or allowing Thrawn to have them, which was lose/lose. Another use of the cloaking tech when he timed the firing of his ship's weapons to coincide with a cloaked ship under a planetary shield's firing of ITS turbolaser, so that it looked to those on-planet like he had the ability to fire through their shields and tricked them into surrendering.

Until Palps matches that level of cleverness, I say Thrawn is just a better villain who's got much more original and interesting ways of beating his enemies. Order 66 was just a variation on the old "knife in the back." It was effective, but hardly original and not particularly interesting.

Let's compare the other villain in the story to Anakin now, Joruus C'baoth. C'baoth is not as complex as Thrawn, but he's certainly more complex than Anakin. While much of his origin is a mystery (why was he cloned from the original, and when?), he has motivations that are understandable and make sense.

For one thing, he is insane--but as I said that's not a sufficient explanation in itself and it's fortunate Zahn doesn't just leave it at that and say to the readers "his actions don't have to make sense, because he's crazy."

C'baoth is used to being obeyed, and coercing that obedience through brute Force. Power corrupts, and he's had power for decades by the time Thrawn finds him. He's just had a little planet to himself, and when Thrawn gives him the opportunity to rule the galaxy, he jumps at it. Somehow, fear for the safety of the Jedi got hardwired into his brain, and he wants Force-users to mold in his own image so that the Jedi (as he sees the Jedi anyway) won't die with him. Thus his obsession with capturing Luke, Leia, the twins, or all of them. Later, he wants revenge.

We could debate the merits of the respective stories for a while, but in the end it's all subjective. You like ROTS better, I like Zahn's trilogy better, and neither of us will change the other person's mind. But I hope you can at least see why I like it better, and why I do not feel ROTS is as good.

If somebody were to say ROTS is the best of the prequels, I'd agree. But I would not go so far as to say that it was better than the stuff I listed. Action scenes only get you so far, and I LIKE it when characters talk or otherwise interact with one another. If it's done well. Which, IMHO, it usually was in Zahn's first three novels.

[The Batman]

I'd put Revenge of the Sith, particularly Stover's novelization of the story, over the Thrawn Trilogy as well and for many of the same reasons Jared listed.

[Arrogantcur]

I'd put Revenge of the Sith, particularly Stover's novelization of the story, over the Thrawn Trilogy as well and for many of the same reasons Jared listed.

I might agree with you about the novelization if I'd read it (Stover had the opportunity to improve on what was already there), but not about the movie.

I for one care a lot about villains. I think a story needs a good villain. It's why ESB is my favourite movie in the OT, and why I dislike most of Kevin J. Anderson's work because he usually makes his bad guys either inept, stupid, or both. The villain is one of those things that can either make or break a story.

I have always thought of Thrawn as a very good villain (in the days before he was turned into somthing of an anti-hero), one of the EU's best villains in fact. He only made one mistake: he didn't anticipate that the Noghri would ever turn on him. Unfortunately, that one mistake was enough to cost him his life.

EDIT TO ADD: Just realized something was missing from my list: A.C. Crispin's Han Solo Trilogy. Good stuff, although the ending of the last book feels a little bit rushed.

[Lester C.]

Most of the Star Wars novels are like junk food. They taste good but aren't good for you. You will have a good time reading them, but won't come away from the experience as a smarter person with new insights on life. I consider all the titles to be guilty pleasures of a sort as I know I should be reading something that will improve me as a person.

[Rabid Trekkie]

Most of the Star Wars novels are like junk food. They taste good but aren't good for you. You will have a good time reading them, but won't come away from the experience as a smarter person with new insights on life. I consider all the titles to be guilty pleasures of a sort as I know I should be reading something that will improve me as a person.

I will never understand people who feel they must speak against reading for entertainment.

Not everything has to be deep in order to teach though. Are any of the Star Wars books as provocative as Stranger in a Strange Land or carry the warning of Farenheit 451 or any other of just the sci-fi books? Mostly not, but sometimes the simpler lessons of the Star Wars stories can really help. Take the novelization of Revenge of the Sith for instance, the author has a little part that tells you about the characters. When I was reading the part about Count Dooku, I noticed things said about Dooku's character that actually reminded me of myself. Kind of scary when you can identify with a Star Wars villain. Something simple like that allowed me to take a look at my own life. Or just the hope that Yoda embodies in Yoda: Dark Rendevouz. These things can be of value and entertain.

[Bruce Wayne Jr.]

Or just the hope that Yoda embodies in Yoda: Dark Rendevouz. These things can be of value and entertain.

Dark Rendezvous is probably my favorite SW novel.

[Arrogantcur]

You will have a good time reading them, but won't come away from the experience as a smarter person with new insights on life.

That's all I ask, so long as they don't kill me or turn my brain into pudding. :tongue:

EDIT: My brain is already 40% ice cream and I want to keep it that way, thank you very much!

[Lester C.]

I tried rereading Heir to the Empire today and couldn't get though it. It's so sad to see where all the characters ended up later in life. I just put the novel down and went on to do something else.

[Alex]

Most of the Star Wars novels are like junk food. They taste good but aren't good for you. You will have a good time reading them, but won't come away from the experience as a smarter person with new insights on life. .
Well, i would definetly say the same thing about the watching the movies, i'd wager most people don't read a book about outer space, super powered fighting monks to better themselves :-).
I recall asking the same question the original thread started asked a while back here, and picked up the thrawn books for about 25 cents a piece. Found them to be enjoyable, i agree with others that he was more compelling villian than the emperor, and i do remeber saying something like "I wish this guy had been the one to write the prequels."
I don't want to over sell them, it wasn't any sort of amazing work of fiction, but i felt it fit into the star wars world, expanded on it pretty well, and vastly improved on the dialogue you found in the films.
As an aside, anyone who uses the force in any media that isn't a film, are always 1 million times more impressive then people who use it in the movies, even the prequels when lack of technology wasn't an excuse.

[Lester C.]

I think I just figured out the problem with the EU. George Lucas consciously designed the Star Wars universe on Jungian Theory and had each character represent a Archetype. Luke Solo is the Hero Archetype, Han Solo the Trickster, Lea is The Maiden, Ben Kenobi, Yoda are The Wise Old Men, The Force is Mana or the Spiritual Unconsciousness, Vader is Shadow etc. The problem is that each new story in the EU starts the cycle all over since you are using the same characters you have to switch around their Archetypes which causes a disconnect with what happened before. For instance in NJO Jacen was the Hero Archetype but is now Shadow for Legacy. Poor Jania Archetype keeps flipping back and worth often within the same cycle of stories.

[Jared]

You may be on to something. I've found the best Star Wars books to be those that aren't about trying to advance the main saga. There's more freedom, and fun, to be had with side-stories, back stories, and tales that can stand wholly apart from the movies.

[passer-by]

I enjoyed tremendously the X-Wing series (1-7 anyway), Cloak of Deception, ROTS novelization, Thrawn trilogy (minus the ysalamiri), a couple of NJOs, but then I reached LotF and after NJO's "Star Trek + gore" that was the killer blow. I stopped reading SW comics and novels after several dozen of the former and about 70 of the latter. It may sound harsh, but for me the saga as a whole has jumped the shark. There may still be exceptions, but I stopped caring about the EU.

I still keep fond memories of watching the OT at the cinema between 1977 and 1983. As for the rest I pretty much agree with the Prosecution statements in "Star Wars on Trial", which I recommend to fans and critics alike. Any thoughts on that book?

[jboncha]

I just finished the Millenium Falcon book and it was really interesting to find out the past and origins of such an important craft in the Star Wars universe.
The book is supposed to be a link between the LOF and Fate Of The Jedi books but as far as I can remember it wasnt much.
I can't wait until spring 2009 when the first FOTJ book (Outcast (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Outcast_(novel)))comes out.

[Lester C.]

This is old news that is new to me so I'm going to share it. The guy who wrote the two Darth Bane novels is working on a third book as we speak. There is no information available on what the book is going to be about but it's going to be the first Bane Original novel as the first two were based on the comics. As a big fan of Bane and Zannah I can't wait, I really can't.

[QuietRiver]

This is old news that is new to me so I'm going to share it. The guy who wrote the two Darth Bane novels is working on a third book as we speak. There is no information available on what the book is going to be about but it's going to be the first Bane Original novel as the first two were based on the comics. As a big fan of Bane and Zannah I can't wait, I really can't.

:eek: There was a second Bane novel? Jeez, I'm out of the loop. I gotta check that out.

EDIT: So I've finally read the blurb on what Fate of the Jedi is going to be- and it sounds interesting: Luke gets exiled, Jedi are hated by everyone, and Valin Horn goes crazy.

Maybe they'll finally kill Luke. He's well over 60 by this point.

[Rabid Trekkie]

:eek: There was a second Bane novel? Jeez, I'm out of the loop. I gotta check that out.

EDIT: So I've finally read the blurb on what Fate of the Jedi is going to be- and it sounds interesting: Luke gets exiled, Jedi are hated by everyone, and Valin Horn goes crazy.

Maybe they'll finally kill Luke. He's well over 60 by this point.

You know, except for a couple Star Wars books by certain authors (Bane books, the little books by Reeves, and maybe some one shots) I think I'm done with the Star Wars novels. I mean can they not think of anything else to do but hunt the Jedi and restart the Empire?

[QuietRiver]

I know what you mean. At this point, I just look at the novels as being fun in that completely brainless way. Like playing Pokemon.

[Sean Walsh]

You know, except for a couple Star Wars books by certain authors (Bane books, the little books by Reeves, and maybe some one shots) I think I'm done with the Star Wars novels. I mean can they not think of anything else to do but hunt the Jedi and restart the Empire?

I've been of this mindset since NJO. I can buy certain books - mostly "one shot" books like DEATH STAR, books that tend to stick to the main saga story, and anything by Zahn (who seems to have his own corner of the SW universe).

MILLENNIUM FALCON is the closest I've gotten to any of the major Expanded Universe story in a long time, and it was good because (other than some general knowledge that Wikipedia can easily provide) I was able to understand what was going on and enjoyed it as its own story.

[Sabrina_Fried]

You know, except for a couple Star Wars books by certain authors (Bane books, the little books by Reeves, and maybe some one shots) I think I'm done with the Star Wars novels. I mean can they not think of anything else to do but hunt the Jedi and restart the Empire?

Don't forget have random Jedi characters jump to and from the Dark Side as easily as turning lights off and on.

I'm about 4 or 5 novels behind now and I really don't feel like I've missed out on anything.

Sabrina

[The Batman]

You know, except for a couple Star Wars books by certain authors (Bane books, the little books by Reeves, and maybe some one shots) I think I'm done with the Star Wars novels. I mean can they not think of anything else to do but hunt the Jedi and restart the Empire?


I don't know if I'm done with the Star Wars novels for good, but I'm done for now too. I might check out Millenium Falcon and maybe the second Bane book but thatès about it for now. I just don't have the time, money, or energy for Fate of the Jedi right now.

[Lester C.]

You know, except for a couple Star Wars books by certain authors (Bane books, the little books by Reeves, and maybe some one shots) I think I'm done with the Star Wars novels. I mean can they not think of anything else to do but hunt the Jedi and restart the Empire?

I'm at that point too. I didn't even bother to buy the last novel in the Legacy series and I'm not going buy any of the new novels because they are based on Legacy and are all going to be hardcovers.

[mr.brighteyes]

Someone want to read the new Luke Skywalker novel and review it? I can't afford it and want to know if it is any good.

[Rabid Trekkie]

Someone want to read the new Luke Skywalker novel and review it? I can't afford it and want to know if it is any good.

I'm in the same boat (especially since I used the extra money I made this week to get $60 worth of used books) and I imagine that a lot of others are as well. Times are hard and the SW novels seem to be trying to outdo the prequels in terms of how dark they can be. I might pick it up in paperback, which according to theforce.net won't be till August, if I see enough positive reviews but I'm not getting my hopes up.