So what exactly *is* the anti-life equation?

[MJC]

Can't be that hard. Maybe -life? Or 1/life?

Seriously, I've never understood the concept. Is it something physical or what?

[Argonaut]

In the nutsell, it is the opposite of choice and free will. It is the ulimate power to command every thing. There is no amount of willpower that can overcome it, thus it not like hypnotism or telepathy. No one can fight against it once it is used, with the exception of those who already possess it. To the controlled subject, it would seem that he/she would be doing the most natural thing in in their world. To the controller, the living, the dead, undead, gods, and even, cosmic entities are puppets to them.

It is metaphysical concept if that is the answer that you are looking for.

[Arvandor]

And, er, which comic did this come from? I don't think I've heard of it?

(though it sounds vaguely familiar)

[Gaz]

New Gods? It's a Darkseid thing mostly.

[pennywisdom]

In the nutsell, it is the opposite of choice and free will. It is the ulimate power to command every thing. There is no amount of willpower that can overcome it, thus it not like hypnotism or telepathy. No one can fight against it once it is used, with the exception of those who already possess it. To the controlled subject, it would seem that he/she would be doing the most natural thing in in their world. To the controller, the living, the dead, undead, gods, and even, cosmic entities are puppets to them.

It is metaphysical concept if that is the answer that you are looking for.
Exactly. I think it's most interesting when it's used as an allegorical representation of fascism. Anti-Life is, in Darkseid's mind, the ultimate freedom because it frees you from the burden of choice. This mirrors the mentality of real-world dictators.

To quote Grant Morrison's "Rock of Ages" (which is a brilliant story, read it if you haven't yet):

Freedom from thought! Freedom from self! No fear! No responsibility! No guilt! Anti-Life!

Darkseid: See what I have made! Imagine what is yet to come! I take away their confusion and give them obedience. I take away their fear of themselves and give them fear of Darkseid. I have liberated them from the chaos of indecision. I have given them one straight path, one clear purpose, one goal: To die for Darkseid.

Political allegory abound. Shades of Orwell.

[pennywisdom]

New Gods? It's a Darkseid thing mostly.
Yes. It's also a big reason why Darkseid is such a cosmic badass, no matter what anyone else says. He's evil incarnate.

[Arvandor]

Yes. It's also a big reason why Darkseid is such a cosmic badass, no matter what anyone else says. He's evil incarnate.

and Superman's bitch.

[pennywisdom]

and Superman's bitch.
You're just proving you haven't read enough Darkseid.

[Kid Seven]

Darkseid actually scared me when I was young. He really is just pure evil. His aims are beyond any normal political, personal or emotional aims. Written well he's the scariest villain in the DCU.

[Gaz]

You're just proving you haven't read enough Darkseid.
"Darkseid. Is" :evilsmile

[barbgrayson]

he's very scarry back then especially that saga in action comics where he turned superman into one of his gladiators.
anyways i find the anti-life equation ubsurd and cosmic odysey doesn't really make sense to me

[Sage Shinigami]

"Darkseid. Is" :evilsmile

You forgot the last part: Nothing. I'm not at all a fan of Darkseid. He's a joke. That said, there's no way he should be Superman's bitch on his worst day. Should be the other way around.

[Kid Seven]

Darkseid's a villain that's got to be handled right to work. Else you've just got a big rock with a god-complex. Morrison's was awesome, and I really like the black that they chose over blue for his armor in the alternate future.

Correction, he's Atom's bitch. ;)

[Justin Davis]

So, if the anti-life equation is purely a metaphysical allegory, just what the hell was/is Darkseid looking for?

[pennywisdom]

"Darkseid. Is" :evilsmile
That was beyond wicked. That story still gives me goosebumps.

You forgot the last part: Nothing. I'm not at all a fan of Darkseid. He's a joke.
If you don't get that reference, you probably shouldn't comment.

Darkseid's a villain that's got to be handled right to work. Else you've just got a big rock with a god-complex. Morrison's was awesome, and I really like the black that they chose over blue for his armor in the alternate future.

Correction, he's Atom's bitch. ;)
You're right on all counts.

[tymac]

I think the actual equation is " one plus one plus two plus one".


There was a Superman elseworlds where the Kryptonians had the solution before Krypton exploded. It might have been Superman: the Dark Side.

[MJC]

So, if the anti-life equation is purely a metaphysical allegory, just what the hell was/is Darkseid looking for?

Yeah, that's kind of what I was getting at.

[barbgrayson]

i think alan grant handled darkseid well when anarky was teleported to apokolips

[Lurch]

I never really gave the anti-life equation very much thought. As stated, it's a New Gods/Darkseid thing, and I'm not that schooled on their mythology. But this does remind of some nut that used to post on Usenet. He was obsessed with the anti-life equation, seemed to believe it was real, and would post these really long equations based on the whatever hints have been dropped in the books. He was sort of like the guy from that movie Pi, except crazier.

[Cash Lone]

I never really gave the anti-life equation very much thought. As stated, it's a New Gods/Darkseid thing, and I'm not that schooled on their mythology. But this does remind of some nut that used to post on Usenet. He was obsessed with the anti-life equation, seemed to believe it was real, and would post these really long equations based on the whatever hints have been dropped in the books. He was sort of like the guy from that movie Pi, except crazier.

Did he try to build a Mother Box?

[Alan2099]

"Darkseid. Is" :evilsmile
Correction: Darkseid used to be.


The guy who's supposedly the most fearsome being in the DCU hardly ever does anything impressive anymore.

[bannermanonemillion]

Correction: Darkseid used to be.


The guy who's supposedly the most fearsome being in the DCU hardly ever does anything impressive anymore.

Is it too cliched to say "Blame The Writers?"

[Argonaut]

Is it too cliched to say "Blame The Writers?"

No, it isn't.

[Reptisaurus!]

Kirby's assistant Mark Evanier, from his site at www.povonline.com on the anti-life equation:


What is the Anti-Life Equation?

The Anti-Life Equation, pursued relentlessly by Darkseid throughout the Fourth World series, was never fully defined by Jack. That is, he never quite made up his mind. My then-partner Steve Sherman and I heard several scenarios from Jack as to how he would "pay off" that MacGuffin. Some were philosophical concepts with deep religious overtones; others were more comic-bookish notions, including the possibility that the Anti-Life Equation never really existed; that it was Darkseid's misinterpretation of the power of Faith. The thing to remember is that Kirby was forever changing his mind about how his stories would go. It was not uncommon for him to tell Steve and me what the next issue of, say, New Gods would be, explaining the whole story in glorious, fully-developed detail...then he'd sit down at the drawing board and a completely-different story would emerge. What's more, he'd have no idea how he got from one plot to the other. So I don't know what he would have done with the Anti-Life Equation...and he didn't, either. I don't think he would have known for sure until he drew that story...and maybe not even then.


I doubt that Kirby himself woulda gone the metaphysical allegory route. My reading of Kirby's "New Gods" is that pretty much everything is symbolic, but all the symbols also have physical representation. Like, Darkseid is a *symbol* for absolute, Nietzschean will-to-power gone mad, but he's also a unique personality in his own right. All the symbols have some kind of physical existence.

[mgs]

Correction: Darkseid used to be.


The guy who's supposedly the most fearsome being in the DCU hardly ever does anything impressive anymore.
i admit, i'm not that knowledgeable on him, but where is he? only time i've seen him lately was on the cartoon and in comics, if he really is evil, what has he done to truly mark this claim?

edit: i guess besides sending doomsday to kill superman.

[Ian J.N.]

In the nutsell, it is the opposite of choice and free will. It is the ulimate power to command every thing. There is no amount of willpower that can overcome it, thus it not like hypnotism or telepathy. No one can fight against it once it is used, with the exception of those who already possess it. To the controlled subject, it would seem that he/she would be doing the most natural thing in in their world. To the controller, the living, the dead, undead, gods, and even, cosmic entities are puppets to them.

It is metaphysical concept if that is the answer that you are looking for.And, er, which comic did this come from? I don't think I've heard of it?

(though it sounds vaguely familiar)It's from Walt Simonson's excellent Orion series. I'm surprised no one has mentioned Orion, as it focussed on the anti-life equation quite a bit. It was revealed in the final issue that Mr. Miracle (aka Scott Free, symbol of freedom) has had the equation all along, which I thought was pretty cool.

[Adam Crocker]

You're just proving you haven't read enough Darkseid.

Or he's read all-too much post-Crisis Darkseid, a.k.a. Jobberseid!

[pennywisdom]

Or he's read all-too much post-Crisis Darkseid, a.k.a. Jobberseid!
The stuff Kirby did for DC was amazing, as well as underrated. He's not called "the King" for nothing.

Having said that, Darkseid has made several notable post-Crisis appearances as well. All this "Darkseid sucks" speculation is extremely myopic.

[Argonaut]

The stuff Kirby did for DC was amazing, as well as underrated. He's not called "the King" for nothing.

Having said that, Darkseid has made several notable post-Crisis appearances as well. All this "Darkseid sucks" speculation is extremely myopic.

The "Darkseid sucks" phenomenon is more recent. I blame both the writer who ended the run of the Man of Steel and Jeph Loeb for the state of Darkseid (as well as any Superman writer who thinks it is cool for the Darkseid to job for Superman).

[Ontir]

It is suprising that Orion hasn't been mentioned more. I was fortunate enough to have my questions printed in the waning days of the letter columns, and I asked Mr. Simonson how he intended to handle the Anti-Life Equation. Jim Starlin had, in Cosmic Odyssey, dealt with it as death itself. Once unleashed, it would destroy all life in the universe. Simonson said (near as I can remember without the books in front of me), that he intended to follow what Kirby had put in print, and that the "A-L E" was the eradication of choice, as previously stated. Once Orion had taken possession of the power, he soon learned that it was a curse, and nothing less. He spent most of the rest of the series, trying to rid himself of it, and then discovered that Scott Free/(foremerly?)Mr. Miracle had been in possession of it all along, but being more pure in nature, handn't succumbed to using it, as Orion had. If you've not yet read Simonson's Orion series, I highly reccommend picking it up. Aside from Kirby, it's one of the three best presentations of Darkseid, the others being Morrison's "Rock of Ages" story in JLA, and "the Great Darkness Saga," in the Legion of Super-Heroes, which is available as a TPB. "RofA" may be, as well, but I'm not sure. For that matter, Cosmic Odyssey is a pretty good read, too, and it features brilliant art by Mike Mignola!

[barbgrayson]

this thread has got me into reading my New Gods and Cosmic Odessey again which i appreciate more the 2nd time around especially with your metaphysical insights

[666MasterOfPuppets]

You're just proving you haven't read enough Darkseid.

The thing is that Darkseid has been kind of underused. Besides, I didn't like what happened between him and WW during OWAW. He should be "The God The Devil Prays To" again.

[fumetti]

...some of you got close to it. It's definitely about individual freedom. But you guys are being too literal, or too mythological.

You gotta look at what Jack Kirby was going through in his personal life. I might be reading too much into this, but art comes from inside us. What we create is a manifestation of what's in our soul. And I think when Jack created his Fourth World, he was a very troubled artist.

Kirby’s thematic growth from “great power requires responsibility” to “great power is dangerous” seems less a reaction to the social climate than to his tumultuous professional climate. The former philosophy is one of hope, faith, and optimism (reflecting his his years of uninhibited creating within the Marvel universe); the latter philosophy is one of fear, cynicism, and betrayal (when Marvel seemed to be drifting away from him). The wonderful spring garden of the Marvel universe was very much a new genesis for Kirby. But when Jack saw the dark side of Marvel, it all became a black Apokolips where the Anti-Life equation squelched the voice of creative individuality.

Kirby’s work is filled with symbolism. If Galactus and Silver Surfer are God and Jesus, it’s no stretch for Darkseid to be publishing and the Anti-Life Equation to be work-for-hire. And on pg 7 of New Gods #1, Kirby has Highfather saying “They must remain free, Orion! Life flowers in freedom!” In my mind, Kirby is speaking of being an artist. In the last panel is perhaps the most telling of symbolic moments: Highfather says, “This wall is our link with the ‘source!’” The “wall”, a blank surface, is the page. The “source” is creativity. Just as the wall is the New Gods’ link to the source, the page is the artist’s link to his creativity. Without the page, where can the imagination become reality? Highfather continues: “It lived even as the old gods died!” The “old gods” are the characters Kirby created for Marvel, and although they “died” as far as he was concerned, his creativity, his passion for comics, didn’t. Orion responds, “That is so! It is eternal! It is the life equation! And its power is a part of your wonder-staff!” On page nine, Highfather explains that the Life Equation means “the right of choice is ours”. So Orion is speaking for Kirby by asserting that creativity and freedom are forever linked. Then Kirby finishes up by telling us that creativy and freedom are part of the power of his “wonder staff”, referring to his pencil.

Jack carried his allegory further. Orion may well be the voice of Jack himself. New Genesis and Apokolips aren’t two different places, but two different perceptions or realities. It's the eternal conflict between what something could ideally be, and the ugly reality of what it truly is. New Genesis was what Kirby thought Marvel was for him: a place of hope, faith, and optimism. It was a fertile garden where Jack could happily plant his creative seeds. Then Marvel became Apokolips, “a dismal, unclean place of great, ugly houses” (House of Ideas? House that Jack built?) where “those who live with weapons rule the wretches who build them!” (copyrights and work for hire contracts as weapons against creative freedom?) This is where Jack and Orion mesh, both have their roots in the haven of the Anti-Life Equation: the outside control of all living thought. For Orion, that means Apokolips; for Jack, it means work-for-hire.

Which leads us to another allegorical character, the single wildcard of this period. One artist/hero could not be manipulated like all the others. He was truly the greatest hero of two worlds/companies, a veritable Miracle Man who got off Scott Free from the bindings of the “standard procedure” of the work-for-hire companies. This wildcard was Neal Adams. Adams insisted he work for who he wanted, when he wanted, and under the name he wanted. What separated Adams from the other excellent artist in the field wasn’t just his incredible talent. It was that he broke in already possessing veteran ability and immediately was a fan sensation. Marvel and DC needed him more than he needed either of them. And thus he was able to escape the shackles that bind others.

Jack's struggles at the time included an industry that wanted to stay stuck in 1966 or so. Stan Lee eventually didn't need Jack anymore, just like it didn't need Steve Ditko. Artistic vision and innovation were no longer needed. Marvel would do just fine simply servicing the franchises. Jack had witnessed his relationship with Marvel turn from a fertile garden from which his creativity could grow, to a barren place not much interested in his seeds.

I might be off the mark, but it can't be by much. Jack's creation of Funky Flashman (a charicature of Stan Lee) is pretty telling of what he was thinking those days. Jack introduces Funky as "the driven little man who dreams of having it all!!! The opportunistic spoiler without character or values who preys on all things like a cannibal!!"

Yeah, Jack was pissed about Stan and Marvel, and he used his Fourth World books to talk about it.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

...some of you got close to it. It's definitely about individual freedom. But you guys are being too literal, or too mythological.

You gotta look at what Jack Kirby was going through in his personal life. I might be reading too much into this, but art comes from inside us. What we create is a manifestation of what's in our soul. And I think when Jack created his Fourth World, he was a very troubled artist.

Kirby’s thematic growth from “great power requires responsibility” to “great power is dangerous” seems less a reaction to the social climate than to his tumultuous professional climate. The former philosophy is one of hope, faith, and optimism (reflecting his his years of uninhibited creating within the Marvel universe); the latter philosophy is one of fear, cynicism, and betrayal (when Marvel seemed to be drifting away from him). The wonderful spring garden of the Marvel universe was very much a new genesis for Kirby. But when Jack saw the dark side of Marvel, it all became a black Apokolips where the Anti-Life equation squelched the voice of creative individuality.

Kirby’s work is filled with symbolism. If Galactus and Silver Surfer are God and Jesus, it’s no stretch for Darkseid to be publishing and the Anti-Life Equation to be work-for-hire. And on pg 7 of New Gods #1, Kirby has Highfather saying “They must remain free, Orion! Life flowers in freedom!” In my mind, Kirby is speaking of being an artist. In the last panel is perhaps the most telling of symbolic moments: Highfather says, “This wall is our link with the ‘source!’” The “wall”, a blank surface, is the page. The “source” is creativity. Just as the wall is the New Gods’ link to the source, the page is the artist’s link to his creativity. Without the page, where can the imagination become reality? Highfather continues: “It lived even as the old gods died!” The “old gods” are the characters Kirby created for Marvel, and although they “died” as far as he was concerned, his creativity, his passion for comics, didn’t. Orion responds, “That is so! It is eternal! It is the life equation! And its power is a part of your wonder-staff!” On page nine, Highfather explains that the Life Equation means “the right of choice is ours”. So Orion is speaking for Kirby by asserting that creativity and freedom are forever linked. Then Kirby finishes up by telling us that creativy and freedom are part of the power of his “wonder staff”, referring to his pencil.

Jack carried his allegory further. Orion may well be the voice of Jack himself. New Genesis and Apokolips aren’t two different places, but two different perceptions or realities. It's the eternal conflict between what something could ideally be, and the ugly reality of what it truly is. New Genesis was what Kirby thought Marvel was for him: a place of hope, faith, and optimism. It was a fertile garden where Jack could happily plant his creative seeds. Then Marvel became Apokolips, “a dismal, unclean place of great, ugly houses” (House of Ideas? House that Jack built?) where “those who live with weapons rule the wretches who build them!” (copyrights and work for hire contracts as weapons against creative freedom?) This is where Jack and Orion mesh, both have their roots in the haven of the Anti-Life Equation: the outside control of all living thought. For Orion, that means Apokolips; for Jack, it means work-for-hire.

Which leads us to another allegorical character, the single wildcard of this period. One artist/hero could not be manipulated like all the others. He was truly the greatest hero of two worlds/companies, a veritable Miracle Man who got off Scott Free from the bindings of the “standard procedure” of the work-for-hire companies. This wildcard was Neal Adams. Adams insisted he work for who he wanted, when he wanted, and under the name he wanted. What separated Adams from the other excellent artist in the field wasn’t just his incredible talent. It was that he broke in already possessing veteran ability and immediately was a fan sensation. Marvel and DC needed him more than he needed either of them. And thus he was able to escape the shackles that bind others.

Jack's struggles at the time included an industry that wanted to stay stuck in 1966 or so. Stan Lee eventually didn't need Jack anymore, just like it didn't need Steve Ditko. Artistic vision and innovation were no longer needed. Marvel would do just fine simply servicing the franchises. Jack had witnessed his relationship with Marvel turn from a fertile garden from which his creativity could grow, to a barren place not much interested in his seeds.

I might be off the mark, but it can't be by much. Jack's creation of Funky Flashman (a charicature of Stan Lee) is pretty telling of what he was thinking those days. Jack introduces Funky as "the driven little man who dreams of having it all!!! The opportunistic spoiler without character or values who preys on all things like a cannibal!!"

Yeah, Jack was pissed about Stan and Marvel, and he used his Fourth World books to talk about it.

:eek: @_@

Man, I just can say thank you for such an explanation.

[Ontir]

Very interesting, Fumetti. I always wondered why the world of "the Old Gods" looked so much like Asgard. It looked like the Norse Ragnarok was the beginning of the New Gods history. I remember hearing that Kirby was moving to California, and setting up a studio out here, while working for DC, with the intention of some sort of power-play, that would result in greater power for the creators, but that DC cut him off, cancelling his books before he could acheive his goals. I don't know if that's true, but that's what I've heard.

Y'know, while were in the general vicinity, I really wish DC would re-issue all the Fourth World books that Kirby did, in order from Jimmy Olsen to New Gods to Mr. Miracle, to the Forever People, and this time, let us see KIRBY'S Superman, instead of the drawn-over version DC had Curt Swan do. I really liked Kirby's Superman!

[Paradox]

666MasterOfPuppets thinks exactly the opposite of the way I do:

The thing is that Darkseid has been kind of underused.

No, IMHO, he's OVERused. Darkseid should only be pulled out for BIG DEAL, GREAT stories. I feel much the same about Dr. Doom and Thanos over at Marvel. The more you use them, the less of an impact they have when they DO appear.

Save 'em for the really good stuff, and stop using them for mediocrity.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

No, IMHO, he's OVERused. Darkseid should only be pulled out for BIG DEAL, GREAT stories. I feel much the same about Dr. Doom and Thanos over at Marvel. The more you use them, the less of an impact they have when they DO appear.

Save 'em for the really good stuff, and stop using them for mediocrity.

Perhaps I didn't use the right word. When I said underused, I meant that he looked less powerful than he should.

I agree with you. Darkseid should appear only when big stuff happens.

[Zeta]

So I just found out that this is actually supposed to be an equation that gives Darkseid the ability to control every being in the universe. Awfully odd name, eh? For years, I thought Darkseid was just a nihilistic whiner who wanted to rid the universe of all living organisms, including himself. This version makes a little more sense, but still - has it ever been hinted at that an Anti-Life equation might be a little more literal and that Darkseid is going to accidentally off himself and everyone else in a moment of God hubris if he ever DOES manage to complete it?

[Babylon23]

Darkseid is all about order, supressing the individual and creating a slave state with him as the only independent thinker. The Anti-Life Equation is all about the supression of free will.

This is the underlying conflict amongst the New Gods, more than a basic good vs. evil battle. New Genesis is all about the expression of free will and the power of the individual. Apokalypse is about stifling free will.

The Equation itself does exist, and is locked away in the minds of humanity. That's why Darkseid was always interested in conquering Earth, so that he could find the equation.

In Walt Simonson's Orion series, Orion actually gained possession of the Anti-Life Equation, and used it to enslave the entire universe.

[Sean Walsh]

So I just found out that this is actually supposed to be an equation that gives Darkseid the ability to control every being in the universe. Awfully odd name, eh? For years, I thought Darkseid was just a nihilistic whiner who wanted to rid the universe of all living organisms, including himself. This version makes a little more sense, but still - has it ever been hinted at that an Anti-Life equation might be a little more literal and that Darkseid is going to accidentally off himself and everyone else in a moment of God hubris if he ever DOES manage to complete it?

Not quite.

But in the COSMIC ODYSSEY miniseries several years ago, Jim Starlin attempted to redo the Anti-Life Equation and create an Anti-Life Entity, which (on its own, without Darkseid's influence) tried to destroy the universe.

The less said about it, the better. But that's the only time the A-LE has been used anywhere near what you mentioned...

[dancj]

So I just found out that this is actually supposed to be an equation that gives Darkseid the ability to control every being in the universe. Awfully odd name, eh?

The logic of the name (I believe) is the idea that life equates with free will. This equation completely removes free will of everyone (except the person using it)

[Young Avenger]

I rewatched the "Destroyer" episode of JLU and Lex Luthor used the Anti-Life Equation to teleport Darkseid out of Earth. I wanna know what actually the Anti-Life Equation is. What is it's powers and it's purpose.

[Bat-Mite]

The Anti-Life Equation is basically an equation that will allow Darkseid to erradicate free will in the entire universe, making his will the only will left. Basically it allows Darkseid to control everyone.

[Young Avenger]

That's it? I expected it would be more complex than that. Thanx for the answer Bat-Mite

[TCJohnson]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Life_Equation

(Oddly enough, it suggests that Bat-Mite gets his power from the anti-life equation.)

[Bat-Mite]

Oh yeah, that would be from the World's Funnest one shot.

[TCJohnson]

And the Emporer Joker storyline.

During the Emperor Joker storyline, in Superman: Emperor Joker (2000), the Joker gains control of the power of Mister Mxyzptlk. Darkseid himself states about this that the Joker has stumbled onto the Anti-Life Equation, which might imply that the Anti-Life Equation may have something to do with the power weilded by the 5D imps such as Mxyzptlk and Bat-Mite, perhaps even that the imps are able perform their reality-defying pranks simply because they know the Anti-Life Equation.

[yeoman]

I rewatched the "Destroyer" episode of JLU and Lex Luthor used the Anti-Life Equation to teleport Darkseid out of Earth. I wanna know what actually the Anti-Life Equation is. What is it's powers and it's purpose.

I personally kinda doubted that was the real ALE. Or, if it was, Luthor made sure Darkseid would never really get ahold of it. It's hard to tell. It's pretty vague on exactly what happened in that scene.

[Tommy]

In Swamp Thing it was basically stated to be a literal Mathematical equation that anyone who knew all the proper variables could figure out.

[shyguy]

I like the Anti-Life equation better when we're really not sure what it is. I came to that conclusion after Morrison's Mr. Miracle mini, where it's just a bunch of bad words with mathematical symbols mixed in.

[King_Mungi]

Meh! Most of Darkseid's defeats were avatars and not the real Darkseid as said the real Darkseid never lost a battle.

1.http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j165/A_Flight10/dark0px.jpg

New Gods#15 that all pre-JKFW Darkseid losses were avatars, and that the "true" Darkseid likely can't lose on the physical plane:
1. http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j165/A_Flight10/f9cca559.jpg

[Ontir]

Not quite.

But in the COSMIC ODYSSEY miniseries several years ago, Jim Starlin attempted to redo the Anti-Life Equation and create an Anti-Life Entity, which (on its own, without Darkseid's influence) tried to destroy the universe.

The less said about it, the better. But that's the only time the A-LE has been used anywhere near what you mentioned...


I asked about this, when Walt Simonson was doing the Orion comic a few years ago, and he responded in the lettercol, that Stalin's story was radically different than what Kirby had intended/presented, and that he was only dealing with the Kirby stuff, and treating that as canon. As that series showed, when Orion gained the knowledge of the Anti-Life Equation, he was all-powerful, but in becoming so, that power tainted him and caused him to betray everything he strove to become, and destroy nearly anything that came in contact with him. He eventually found one being Scott Free who had been in possession of the knowledge for quite some time, and was better able to handle it maybe because he was the son of Izaya, and helped Orion.

If you've not read Orion, I highly reccommend it!

[Solario]

...some of you got close to it. It's definitely about individual freedom. But you guys are being too literal, or too mythological.

You gotta look at what Jack Kirby was going through in his personal life. I might be reading too much into this, but art comes from inside us. What we create is a manifestation of what's in our soul. And I think when Jack created his Fourth World, he was a very troubled artist.

Kirby’s thematic growth from “great power requires responsibility” to “great power is dangerous” seems less a reaction to the social climate than to his tumultuous professional climate. The former philosophy is one of hope, faith, and optimism (reflecting his his years of uninhibited creating within the Marvel universe); the latter philosophy is one of fear, cynicism, and betrayal (when Marvel seemed to be drifting away from him). The wonderful spring garden of the Marvel universe was very much a new genesis for Kirby. But when Jack saw the dark side of Marvel, it all became a black Apokolips where the Anti-Life equation squelched the voice of creative individuality.

Kirby’s work is filled with symbolism. If Galactus and Silver Surfer are God and Jesus, it’s no stretch for Darkseid to be publishing and the Anti-Life Equation to be work-for-hire. And on pg 7 of New Gods #1, Kirby has Highfather saying “They must remain free, Orion! Life flowers in freedom!” In my mind, Kirby is speaking of being an artist. In the last panel is perhaps the most telling of symbolic moments: Highfather says, “This wall is our link with the ‘source!’” The “wall”, a blank surface, is the page. The “source” is creativity. Just as the wall is the New Gods’ link to the source, the page is the artist’s link to his creativity. Without the page, where can the imagination become reality? Highfather continues: “It lived even as the old gods died!” The “old gods” are the characters Kirby created for Marvel, and although they “died” as far as he was concerned, his creativity, his passion for comics, didn’t. Orion responds, “That is so! It is eternal! It is the life equation! And its power is a part of your wonder-staff!” On page nine, Highfather explains that the Life Equation means “the right of choice is ours”. So Orion is speaking for Kirby by asserting that creativity and freedom are forever linked. Then Kirby finishes up by telling us that creativy and freedom are part of the power of his “wonder staff”, referring to his pencil.

Jack carried his allegory further. Orion may well be the voice of Jack himself. New Genesis and Apokolips aren’t two different places, but two different perceptions or realities. It's the eternal conflict between what something could ideally be, and the ugly reality of what it truly is. New Genesis was what Kirby thought Marvel was for him: a place of hope, faith, and optimism. It was a fertile garden where Jack could happily plant his creative seeds. Then Marvel became Apokolips, “a dismal, unclean place of great, ugly houses” (House of Ideas? House that Jack built?) where “those who live with weapons rule the wretches who build them!” (copyrights and work for hire contracts as weapons against creative freedom?) This is where Jack and Orion mesh, both have their roots in the haven of the Anti-Life Equation: the outside control of all living thought. For Orion, that means Apokolips; for Jack, it means work-for-hire.

Which leads us to another allegorical character, the single wildcard of this period. One artist/hero could not be manipulated like all the others. He was truly the greatest hero of two worlds/companies, a veritable Miracle Man who got off Scott Free from the bindings of the “standard procedure” of the work-for-hire companies. This wildcard was Neal Adams. Adams insisted he work for who he wanted, when he wanted, and under the name he wanted. What separated Adams from the other excellent artist in the field wasn’t just his incredible talent. It was that he broke in already possessing veteran ability and immediately was a fan sensation. Marvel and DC needed him more than he needed either of them. And thus he was able to escape the shackles that bind others.

Jack's struggles at the time included an industry that wanted to stay stuck in 1966 or so. Stan Lee eventually didn't need Jack anymore, just like it didn't need Steve Ditko. Artistic vision and innovation were no longer needed. Marvel would do just fine simply servicing the franchises. Jack had witnessed his relationship with Marvel turn from a fertile garden from which his creativity could grow, to a barren place not much interested in his seeds.

I might be off the mark, but it can't be by much. Jack's creation of Funky Flashman (a charicature of Stan Lee) is pretty telling of what he was thinking those days. Jack introduces Funky as "the driven little man who dreams of having it all!!! The opportunistic spoiler without character or values who preys on all things like a cannibal!!"

Yeah, Jack was pissed about Stan and Marvel, and he used his Fourth World books to talk about it.


One thing though; Wasn't Mr. Miracle actually based of Steranko? Or could he just have been an amalgam between the two?

[Phoney Bone]

Mxy and Bat-Mite don't get their power from the Anti-life equation.

Mxy and Bat-Mite are the Anti-life equation.

Evan Dorkin is a genius!

[Ontir]

I've heard that Mr. Miracle was based upon Steranko, who was an escape artist in his younger days.

[A.Warlock]

In Grant Morrison's Seven Soldiers mini of Mr. Miracle, Darkseid applies the anti-life equation to Shilo Norman, who fought it off. This would indicate Darkseid has the anti-life equation, but where the SSoV project fits into the New Gods mythos remains unclear, since the New Gods seem to be bums on the street while Darkseid is a large mob boss type now inhabiting human flesh.

[Ontir]

That's an interesting twist: Darkseid finally gets his hands on the Anti-Life Equation, but he's lost his divinity, and can't make it work!:eek:

[narm00]

That's an interesting twist: Darkseid finally gets his hands on the Anti-Life Equation, but he's lost his divinity, and can't make it work!:eek:

Worse: he's mortal and /can/ make it work. We see him using it successfully in the Mr. Miracle mini, issue #2. Shilo's the only one who's immune to it.

The implication of the MM mini is that it's set far, far in the New Gods' future, after the fall of New Genesis. Scott Free, apparently, is no longer around by then - so the imprisoned New Gods select his apprentice, Shilo, in the hope that he will become the new God of Freedom and rescue the Gods.