View Full Version : Doctor Who *spoilers*
Monkey
06-02-2007, 03:12 PM
For me the "you can go now" line was a "whoa" moment. The ending just seemed to hit you on lots of levels.
mattx110
06-02-2007, 08:12 PM
after a half hour of hearing "retreat!"
it was nice to hear "run!"
and jeeze, what an odd trailer for the next episode. i can't go more than 5 seconds without blinking...
ChrisIII
06-02-2007, 09:41 PM
Doctor Who made an Entertainment Weekly list again, this time their 50 shows you need to watch this Summer :)
Spike-X
06-02-2007, 10:34 PM
Oh. My. God.
What an amazing episode. I just finished watching it, and I'm emotionally drained.
The part where The Doctor/John Smith is holding Joan's hand, and he sees the life he could have with her - the mundane, everyday, gloriously normal life - was just cruel.
If that turned out to be the last Doctor Who episode ever, I almost wouldn't mind. That's how perfect the episode was.
Also, remind me to never piss the Doctor off.
The original book is now back online on the BBC website. I suggest reading it, just for the ending and how it affected the normally cunning and manipulative 7th Doctor.
thehod
06-03-2007, 01:27 AM
Oh. My. God.
What an amazing episode. I just finished watching it, and I'm emotionally drained.
The part where The Doctor/John Smith is holding Joan's hand, and he sees the life he could have with her - the mundane, everyday, gloriously normal life - was just cruel.
If that turned out to be the last Doctor Who episode ever, I almost wouldn't mind. That's how perfect the episode was.
Also, remind me to never piss the Doctor off.
I'm just going to throw in a little amen here.
Mrs Hod was in floods at the end, and I wasn't far behind.
Brilliant. Simply brilliant.
Monkey
06-03-2007, 02:30 AM
I'm just going to throw in a little amen here.
Mrs Hod was in floods at the end, and I wasn't far behind.
Brilliant. Simply brilliant.
I'm with you there, my female house mate was in floods and I had to get up and leave the room.
I seriously LOVED that episode. Amazing story.
Spoiler quote along the lines of - "...and then we found out why he had ran from us it was to be kind, it was to save us from him. This Doctor who had fought angels and demons."
That could have been a movie, in fact it was BETTER than some of the so called movies I've seen this year.
Spike-X
06-03-2007, 02:55 AM
Also, thinking about it a bit more, there was a bit of a 'For The Man Who Has Everything' (the classic Alan Moore Superman story) element in this week's episode.
king mob
06-03-2007, 04:45 AM
Also, thinking about it a bit more, there was a bit of a 'For The Man Who Has Everything' (the classic Alan Moore Superman story) element in this week's episode.
It was very Moore-ish in places-the possible future and life for John Smith especially-but it managed to have it's own voice. There's lots to love about the episode from the performances of all the cast; to the Doctor being a bit of a twat to Jessica Stephenson's character; the fate of the Family Of Blood (very Alan Moore) and the end at the cenotaph.
A perfect bit of Saturday night telly and one of the highlights of the year (which isn't saying much but it deserves the praise) so far.
Spike-X
06-03-2007, 04:53 AM
I have to wonder.....where did they get the actor who played Baines? What an odd face.
Seeing him interviewed on Doctor Who Confidential, he looked a lot more normal (apart from that extraordinarily long neck). He was brilliant for the part, though - you could tell he was having a ball chewing the scenery and sending up the upper class private school prat that he was playing.
Tobias March
06-03-2007, 06:01 AM
Seeing him interviewed on Doctor Who Confidential, he looked a lot more normal (apart from that extraordinarily long neck). He was brilliant for the part, though - you could tell he was having a ball chewing the scenery and sending up the upper class private school prat that he was playing.
He was excellent. I particularly liked his scene where he confronted the Headmaster outside the school. His delivery of the upper class schoolroom/army barrack language was very well done.
tricksterpup
06-03-2007, 10:29 AM
Wow.. This was probably the best Doctor Who 2 parter I have ever seen. And the best part, it wasn't a huge effect episode. This could have been done in the original episodes and still worked out beautifully. But it would almost seemed out of place then. For me, the entire second series was gearing up for this tale. His loneliness was taken away, he was helping others as a teacher, it was his perfect life. And the story touched on this dark side, that lurks beneath the surface. Again, wonderful story.
Karl H
06-03-2007, 11:40 AM
Just an absolutely immense episode. I was in tears pretty much throughout. Beautiful, beautiful story telling and a wonderful ensemble performance. Really captured the essence of the 'lonely God' for me.
It really was as good as everyone is saying it was.
From the really nasty baddies to the death of John Smith it was just brilliantly done.
And yeah, this one most certainly showed us exactly why you don't want to piss the Doctor off.
hi! Lord Fear
06-03-2007, 12:22 PM
the guy playing son of mine; doesn't he play will scarlet in the new robin hood series? (and if I might add some names to the next doctor pool) Keith Allen and richard e grant. Great episode; really enjoying this season love martha
Vote Saxon
Paul McEnery
06-03-2007, 06:47 PM
Maybe I was just in a bad mood because I was having a lousy time getting a hold of it, but I really thought this screwed the pooch, especially with the fan service.
For one thing, I don't think the whole "John Smith" thing worked with Tennent's portrayal of the Doctor. Seriously, what's the difference? Except, as Martha rightly says, he's crap as a human. All that bloody handwringing because Smith is "going to die" -- well, no he isn't. He's going to become expanded and immortal, which is what he really is. Everything else is bad faith and bullshit. Plus, you've got aliens running around killing people, and he's being wet. Martha should have slapped the shit out of him. "You've been training these kids to go and die in a stupid war for empire, but you can't even sacrifice a little bit of yourself! You want this lame rural life for yourself, fine. Take me fucking home first where I'm not treated like a subhuman by everyone INCLUDING YOU."
Oh, and then he practically dumps her for the Nurse, who, let's face it, is not exactly a bloody star, is she. How's that going to work, exactly?
Oh, and what was the point of all this running away, anyway? Why take them to Earth to kill people "to be kind"? Sure, the nurse asks the question, but the answer is: plothammering. Because there is no reason. If you're going to finish them off anyway -- and yes, that's the story, which makes no sense with a Doctor who bent over backwards for the Krilitanes and just dealt out justice for the Witches.
Oh, and the fan service of look how badass the Doctor is -- how does that make any sense whatsoever? Since when is that in character? Oh, that's right, it would have been in character for McCoy, which is when the story presumably worked.
And why is the authorial voice just handed over, out of the blue, to Baines for two minutes? And if that's how it went down, isn't that a helluva lot more interesting that 30 minutes of "oh no, I won't get to live the tedious life of a coward and a weakling"?
And as for that bollocks of showing up to the memorial day service -- pure mawkish emoporn. Memorial Day for WWI is bullshit and we all know it. Nobody died a hero in that war, but plenty of people died as victims of their stupid classbound masters. Isn't that the point of the headmaster's death, that he's too stupid to think outside his conventions (like everyone else at the school)? Then why play along with the same crap at the funeral? And why act like getting those two boys through the war in one piece is so hot? What sentimental nonsense.
If I was a continuity fanboy prat, this would really bother me, because I'd be stuck with the idea that Martha's a doormat, and the Doctor's a completely callous POS. Fortunately, I can live with the idea that this is an unfortunately conceived translation of a novel to TV that simply failed to work because those involved didn't think the whole business through.
So yeah, I felt as totally poked in the eye on this one - especially after last week's build up - as I did by last year's fanboy episode.
ragnarok_2012
06-03-2007, 08:15 PM
Maybe I was just in a bad mood because I was having a lousy time getting a hold of it, but I really thought this screwed the pooch, especially with the fan service.
For one thing, I don't think the whole "John Smith" thing worked with Tennent's portrayal of the Doctor. Seriously, what's the difference? Except, as Martha rightly says, he's crap as a human. All that bloody handwringing because Smith is "going to die" -- well, no he isn't. He's going to become expanded and immortal, which is what he really is. Everything else is bad faith and bullshit. Plus, you've got aliens running around killing people, and he's being wet. Martha should have slapped the shit out of him. "You've been training these kids to go and die in a stupid war for empire, but you can't even sacrifice a little bit of yourself! You want this lame rural life for yourself, fine. Take me fucking home first where I'm not treated like a subhuman by everyone INCLUDING YOU."
Oh, and then he practically dumps her for the Nurse, who, let's face it, is not exactly a bloody star, is she. How's that going to work, exactly?
Oh, and what was the point of all this running away, anyway? Why take them to Earth to kill people "to be kind"? Sure, the nurse asks the question, but the answer is: plothammering. Because there is no reason. If you're going to finish them off anyway -- and yes, that's the story, which makes no sense with a Doctor who bent over backwards for the Krilitanes and just dealt out justice for the Witches.
Oh, and the fan service of look how badass the Doctor is -- how does that make any sense whatsoever? Since when is that in character? Oh, that's right, it would have been in character for McCoy, which is when the story presumably worked.
And why is the authorial voice just handed over, out of the blue, to Baines for two minutes? And if that's how it went down, isn't that a helluva lot more interesting that 30 minutes of "oh no, I won't get to live the tedious life of a coward and a weakling"?
And as for that bollocks of showing up to the memorial day service -- pure mawkish emoporn. Memorial Day for WWI is bullshit and we all know it. Nobody died a hero in that war, but plenty of people died as victims of their stupid classbound masters. Isn't that the point of the headmaster's death, that he's too stupid to think outside his conventions (like everyone else at the school)? Then why play along with the same crap at the funeral? And why act like getting those two boys through the war in one piece is so hot? What sentimental nonsense.
If I was a continuity fanboy prat, this would really bother me, because I'd be stuck with the idea that Martha's a doormat, and the Doctor's a completely callous POS. Fortunately, I can live with the idea that this is an unfortunately conceived translation of a novel to TV that simply failed to work because those involved didn't think the whole business through.
So yeah, I felt as totally poked in the eye on this one - especially after last week's build up - as I did by last year's fanboy episode.
You make a lot of good points. I see what you're saying. I really enjoyed this two-parter.
I somehow just accept that Doctor Who stories contain nonsensical elements (like Victorian moonbeam lasers that only work on alien werewolves, and 19th century Scottish monks trained in kung fu).
I haven't gotten a handle on precisely why this is, yet, though.
mattx110
06-03-2007, 08:50 PM
Maybe I was just in a bad mood because I was having a lousy time getting a hold of it, but I really thought this screwed the pooch, especially with the fan service.
For one thing, I don't think the whole "John Smith" thing worked with Tennent's portrayal of the Doctor. Seriously, what's the difference? Except, as Martha rightly says, he's crap as a human. All that bloody handwringing because Smith is "going to die" -- well, no he isn't. He's going to become expanded and immortal, which is what he really is. Everything else is bad faith and bullshit. Plus, you've got aliens running around killing people, and he's being wet. Martha should have slapped the shit out of him. "You've been training these kids to go and die in a stupid war for empire, but you can't even sacrifice a little bit of yourself! You want this lame rural life for yourself, fine. Take me fucking home first where I'm not treated like a subhuman by everyone INCLUDING YOU."
Oh, and then he practically dumps her for the Nurse, who, let's face it, is not exactly a bloody star, is she. How's that going to work, exactly?
Oh, and what was the point of all this running away, anyway? Why take them to Earth to kill people "to be kind"? Sure, the nurse asks the question, but the answer is: plothammering. Because there is no reason. If you're going to finish them off anyway -- and yes, that's the story, which makes no sense with a Doctor who bent over backwards for the Krilitanes and just dealt out justice for the Witches.
Oh, and the fan service of look how badass the Doctor is -- how does that make any sense whatsoever? Since when is that in character? Oh, that's right, it would have been in character for McCoy, which is when the story presumably worked.
And why is the authorial voice just handed over, out of the blue, to Baines for two minutes? And if that's how it went down, isn't that a helluva lot more interesting that 30 minutes of "oh no, I won't get to live the tedious life of a coward and a weakling"?
And as for that bollocks of showing up to the memorial day service -- pure mawkish emoporn. Memorial Day for WWI is bullshit and we all know it. Nobody died a hero in that war, but plenty of people died as victims of their stupid classbound masters. Isn't that the point of the headmaster's death, that he's too stupid to think outside his conventions (like everyone else at the school)? Then why play along with the same crap at the funeral? And why act like getting those two boys through the war in one piece is so hot? What sentimental nonsense.
If I was a continuity fanboy prat, this would really bother me, because I'd be stuck with the idea that Martha's a doormat, and the Doctor's a completely callous POS. Fortunately, I can live with the idea that this is an unfortunately conceived translation of a novel to TV that simply failed to work because those involved didn't think the whole business through.
So yeah, I felt as totally poked in the eye on this one - especially after last week's build up - as I did by last year's fanboy episode.
it's hard to come to terms with losing everything you knew and loved, and knowing you're going to live forever, or at least a very very long time. he's been rather reckless to the point of suicidal the first half of the season, this was his chance to be human and forget how alone he was and he couldn't take it. that stings a bit.
when he was human, he didn't understand the concept. the doctor was able to throw away large pieced of himself, but as a human smithy had trouble coming to terms with becoming something completely foreign to him that was described multiple times as "alone" and "ancient".
as for the doctor saving two lives, it is a big deal for him.
this is why he was a rogue timelord and not just a timelord, he couldn't stand to watch people get killed by the monsters of the universe. he can see the big picture but he likes to fight the small problems.
plus "showing mercy" on the family of blood meant living one month as a human while the family died of natural causes. he wasn't being a nice guy either way. he's just not completely comfortable being an executioner.
the changing POV for the last couple minutes is something you either like or don't. it does show that the doctor is no longer human and is instead a force of nature by pulling the POV away from him and describing him in the third person. but i'm with you on the punishment. it really left me thinking "jeeze, wouldn't this doctor just kill them?" he hasn't gotten that masochistic in a long time. he usually lets people/aliens deal with the fates they make for themselves, not go on a universal TARDIS tour of eternal banishment.
and martha supported him asking the nurse along. she also opened his eyes to how oblivious he has been because of his fear of getting attached after rose "transfered schools".
this still might be the best 2 episodes of dr. who i've ever sen.
anyway, if paul cornell lets you down, steve moffat is next week.
Food for thought:
My brother bought a sonic screwdriver. Ironically, to put in the battery, you need an actual screwdriver.
Gary Joyce
06-04-2007, 04:26 AM
If Tennant gives up the role of the Doctor then Eddie Izzard should be given the role.
thehod
06-04-2007, 05:19 AM
Maybe I was just in a bad mood because I was having a lousy time getting a hold of it, but I really thought this screwed the pooch, especially with the fan service.
I'm going to disagree with you on this Paul, for a number of reasons. I'll take them bit by bit if its all the same with you.
For one thing, I don't think the whole "John Smith" thing worked with Tennent's portrayal of the Doctor. Seriously, what's the difference? Except, as Martha rightly says, he's crap as a human. All that bloody handwringing because Smith is "going to die" -- well, no he isn't. He's going to become expanded and immortal, which is what he really is. Everything else is bad faith and bullshit. Plus, you've got aliens running around killing people, and he's being wet. Martha should have slapped the shit out of him. "You've been training these kids to go and die in a stupid war for empire, but you can't even sacrifice a little bit of yourself! You want this lame rural life for yourself, fine. Take me fucking home first where I'm not treated like a subhuman by everyone INCLUDING YOU."
I disagree that John Smith was wet. He was human, and he wanted to live. He wanted the same normal, humdrum, existance that everyone else was entitled to, and the thought of having that torn away from him was terribly hard for him to take. He didn't consider the prospects of his future life to be lame, he considered them a dream life. Right then he wasn't the Doctor at all, but a scared human who was being told that in order to save people he had to give up everything he was. Everything.
As for training the kids, he doesn't know he's training them for little more than rat food on the Somme. From where he was, at that time, he was teaching them duty and discipline, which are still considered to be fairly admirable traits.
Oh, and then he practically dumps her for the Nurse, who, let's face it, is not exactly a bloody star, is she. How's that going to work, exactly?
I didn't get that he was inviting Joan along to be with him in a romantic sense, rather he saw, in her, the ability to believe in the possibilities that the Doctor can represent. She, of course, realised that there was no way she could be with a man who looked exactly like the man she loved, but was nothing like him.
Oh, and what was the point of all this running away, anyway? Why take them to Earth to kill people "to be kind"? Sure, the nurse asks the question, but the answer is: plothammering. Because there is no reason. If you're going to finish them off anyway -- and yes, that's the story, which makes no sense with a Doctor who bent over backwards for the Krilitanes and just dealt out justice for the Witches.
He didn't take them to Earth, he hid on earth. I suppose he could've hidden on Blargon 7, but him and Martha may've stood out a little then. He hid himself in time and space hoping that the families existance would extinguish itself before he had to get directly involved in their destruction. He hoped they wouldn't find him, because if he was drawn into a direct conflict with them he'd have to destroy them, and he didn't want that. Sure, they've still be dead, but he wouldn't be responsible. Of course, they forced his hand, they killed people and monumentally pissed him of, so he did worse than kill them. Now, I think on a deep level, he has realised that if he hadn't choosen that time and that place the family may not have been able to hurt him the way they did, so i saw some element of guilt in what the doctor did to them.
Oh, and the fan service of look how badass the Doctor is -- how does that make any sense whatsoever? Since when is that in character? Oh, that's right, it would have been in character for McCoy, which is when the story presumably worked.
One of the main character traits of this doctor has been around who he is. I'll give you two quotes that'll answer your question.
From the Christmas Invasion: "No second chances. I'm that sort of a man."
And from School Reunion: "I'm so old now. I used to have so much mercy."
There is a darkness to this doctor that he tries to hide with enthusiasm and wonder. That darkness is obviously there though, and has been from his first appearance.
And why is the authorial voice just handed over, out of the blue, to Baines for two minutes? And if that's how it went down, isn't that a helluva lot more interesting that 30 minutes of "oh no, I won't get to live the tedious life of a coward and a weakling"?
I quite enjoyed that. Not the jailer telling us what he was doing, but the jailed. Personally, I hope that the Family find a way to return, as they are one of the better adversaries to have come out of New Who.
If I was a continuity fanboy prat, this would really bother me, because I'd be stuck with the idea that Martha's a doormat, and the Doctor's a completely callous POS. Fortunately, I can live with the idea that this is an unfortunately conceived translation of a novel to TV that simply failed to work because those involved didn't think the whole business through.
So yeah, I felt as totally poked in the eye on this one - especially after last week's build up - as I did by last year's fanboy episode.
I've not read the book, but I certainly intend to, and rather than being a poor piece of television I found it to be one of the most moving and brilliant pieces of television I have seen in many a long time.
It may not be your cup of tea Paul, but might I suggest that you try watching it again, this time without the bad mood?
ChrisIII
06-04-2007, 08:12 AM
Next to McCoy, I think that perhaps Tennant is the most 'ruthless' Doctor....which is interesting because Human Nature's novel is a Seventh Doctor story.
Anyway, since we've already had two somewhat loose adaptations of the spin-off material (Jubilee/Dalek and this one) I wonder what could be next. Here's a few novels I wouldn't mind being adapted (SOME SPOILERS AHEAD, be warned!):
-Love and War. Another by Paul Cornell. In the novel, the Doctor is forced to use Ace's boyfriend to destroy a parasitic alien threat. However with Martha in love with the Doctor himself this seems unlikely.
http://www.drwhoguide.com/who_na09.htm
Father Time by Lance Parkin. An Eigth Doctor novel, originally. The Doctor, marooned on Earth, adopts a daughter who is also alien. However, the only problem with the novel is that it takes place over several years (The Eigth Doctor in the novels is stuck on Earth for a whole century) and what about the companion? Perhaps the Doctor and Martha get seperated, and the TARDIS gets damaged or something (In the books it was still recovering from Gallifrey's destruction).
http://www.drwhoguide.com/whobbc41.htm
Master by Joseph Lidster. A Seventh Doctor audio. "Human Nature" but with a twist-this time it's the Master who has apparentally lost his memories and is living a fairly normal life. If the Master indeed comes back and becomes a recurring character, this could be a interesting story.
king mob
06-04-2007, 12:34 PM
For one thing, I don't think the whole "John Smith" thing worked with Tennent's portrayal of the Doctor. Seriously, what's the difference? Except, as Martha rightly says, he's crap as a human.
That's the point. John Smith is human, he can't defeat the Family and all he really wants to do is settle down with Jessica Stephenson's character. He's not especially 'crap', he's just not an all-powerful alien and flawed.
All that bloody handwringing because Smith is "going to die" -- well, no he isn't. He's going to become expanded and immortal, which is what he really is. Everything else is bad faith and bullshit.
Smith did 'die', the Doctor wiped his personality out of existance when he returned. The matron wanted Smith and his normalness, not this scary alien who brought death with him.
Plus, you've got aliens running around killing people, and he's being wet. Martha should have slapped the shit out of him. "You've been training these kids to go and die in a stupid war for empire, but you can't even sacrifice a little bit of yourself! You want this lame rural life for yourself, fine. Take me fucking home first where I'm not treated like a subhuman by everyone INCLUDING YOU."
He doesn't believe Martha, as far as he's concerned the Doctor is a fanatsy of his and Martha is just playing up to it as she's jealous of his budding relationship with another woman.
As said, he doesn't know he's training them for the War, he's training them for war but remember Smith is supposed to blend in, not stand out. That's why he orders the beating of the kid in the first part, he's fitted into the culture of the time.
Oh, and then he practically dumps her for the Nurse, who, let's face it, is not exactly a bloody star, is she. How's that going to work, exactly?
It's his own way of trying to make up for killing Joan's lover. It's actually incredibly callous and alien of the Doctor to try to think that this would make up for Joan's loss. That's what's so good about the scene-the Doctor doesn't know he's being a twat and thinks he's trying to make things better.
As for Martha, it's been made very clear that he's not in love with her and the Doctor has dumped companions in the past.
Oh, and what was the point of all this running away, anyway? Why take them to Earth to kill people "to be kind"? Sure, the nurse asks the question, but the answer is: plothammering. Because there is no reason. If you're going to finish them off anyway -- and yes, that's the story, which makes no sense with a Doctor who bent over backwards for the Krilitanes and just dealt out justice for the Witches.
This was a weak point but it worked within the context of Tennant's Doctor. This Doctor wants to try to avoid conflict as he's scared of what he can do in the wake of the Time War. Remember the comment about ''you need someone to hold you back'' (or something along those lines) in The Runaway Bride? This just seemed a continuation of that idea.
Oh, and the fan service of look how badass the Doctor is -- how does that make any sense whatsoever? Since when is that in character? Oh, that's right, it would have been in character for McCoy, which is when the story presumably worked.
This Doctor has already made clear that there's no 'second chances' since his first appearance. It seemed perfectly in character.
And why is the authorial voice just handed over, out of the blue, to Baines for two minutes? And if that's how it went down, isn't that a helluva lot more interesting that 30 minutes of "oh no, I won't get to live the tedious life of a coward and a weakling"?
I saw that as an epilogue to the main story, yes, it was a bit jarring but it gave us an end to Baines story that had been built up over both episodes.
If I was a continuity fanboy prat, this would really bother me, because I'd be stuck with the idea that Martha's a doormat, and the Doctor's a completely callous POS. Fortunately, I can live with the idea that this is an unfortunately conceived translation of a novel to TV that simply failed to work because those involved didn't think the whole business through.
As said, this Doctor is a callous bastard, we've seen that before, and Martha is desperate for the Doctor to see her as more than a companion. So it's been fairly consistant with the series so far, something that was lacking last year.
It wasn't Dennis Potter but for Saturday teatime telly it was perfect enough, and at a time when most TV drama is drivel programmes of this quality should be applauded.
drwho
06-04-2007, 08:13 PM
Maybe I missed it because I thought this ending was pretty shoddy, but why couldnt the family sense that the doctor's physiology was timelord again when he was in the ship? Also thought the ending wasn't that good.
Maybe I missed it because I thought this ending was pretty shoddy, but why couldnt the family sense that the doctor's physiology was timelord again when he was in the ship? Also thought the ending wasn't that good.
The Doctor called it Olefactory Ventriliquism, or something along those lines, where he could project the smell of John Smith. A little far-fetched, but then again, this Doctor seems to show more superpowers than the average Doctor (I like his sense of supertaste better, though).
ChrisIII
06-04-2007, 08:20 PM
^The Seventh Doctor interestingly seemed to have powers similar to Spock during his run with various nerve pinches and stuff like that...plus the Fourth had all those breathing powers.
The Tenth also has some sort of mind-meld ability and the whole radiation-into-shoe thing. That could've come in handy a couple of lives ago :)
mattx110
06-04-2007, 08:39 PM
^The Seventh Doctor interestingly seemed to have powers similar to Spock during his run with various nerve pinches and stuff like that...plus the Fourth had all those breathing powers.
The Tenth also has some sort of mind-meld ability and the whole radiation-into-shoe thing. That could've come in handy a couple of lives ago :)
i think these seasons with the theme of the doctor attempting suicide, and villains attempting to live forever, the ability to alter DNA and body chemistry to control radiation and what you smell like is apt.
Conn Seanery
06-04-2007, 08:41 PM
Save the Memorial Day WWI bashing/rebuttals for the Community Forum folks.
ChrisIII
06-05-2007, 06:44 AM
The DVD box set "New Beginnings" arrives today, collecting The Keeper Of Traaken/Logoopolis/Castrovalva. Perhaps intentionally, it features the serials that re-introduced the Master into the program, and brought Tom Baker's seven year run to a close. We are also introduced to two new companions, Nyssa and Tegan.
king mob
06-05-2007, 11:38 AM
The DVD box set "New Beginnings" arrives today, collecting The Keeper Of Traaken/Logoopolis/Castrovalva. Perhaps intentionally, it features the serials that re-introduced the Master into the program, and brought Tom Baker's seven year run to a close. We are also introduced to two new companions, Nyssa and Tegan.
This is a must for those who haven't already got it. The documentary on 'Logopolis' is utterly essential.
^The Seventh Doctor interestingly seemed to have powers similar to Spock during his run with various nerve pinches and stuff like that
When put into context with all the comparisons the Ninth Doctor had to Spock, one starts to realize that Spock would've been a great Time Lord.
ChrisIII
06-06-2007, 06:42 AM
It would be a major coup if they bring the TL's back to get Nimoy to play one :). Star Trek actors in Doctor Who is not unheard of-the guy who played Stotz in CAVES OF ANDROZANI later played a Romulan in THE NEXT GENERATION.
It would be a major coup if they bring the TL's back to get Nimoy to play one :). Star Trek actors in Doctor Who is not unheard of-the guy who played Stotz in CAVES OF ANDROZANI later played a Romulan in THE NEXT GENERATION.
There's also Daphne Ashbrook, who was Dr. Grace Holloway from the movie but guest-starred on DS9.
But, if Eric Roberts were ever on Trek, I wouldn't know what to think...
ChrisIII
06-06-2007, 01:14 PM
Interestingly, Patrick Stewart was almost cast as a time lord in the 80's, and was apparentally considered as a Doctor candidate for the TV movie (Along with practically every other British actor-and a few who weren't such as Jeff Goldblum).
mattx110
06-06-2007, 06:39 PM
Food for thought:
My brother bought a sonic screwdriver. Ironically, to put in the battery, you need an actual screwdriver.
been meaning to comment on this.
would make a great gag for an episode. he loses his old one (well, his new one since episode 1 of this season) and gets a new one without batteries and spends the whole episode taking it out forgetting it can't do anything until he is cornered by a robot in a radioshack.
Monkey
06-09-2007, 01:22 PM
"Blink" was a GREAT episode.
It would have been much better without that little bit at the end, though.
Donald M.
06-09-2007, 08:47 PM
It would have been much better without that little bit at the end, though.
Yeah. What was that all about? Weird and unnecessary.
Yeah. What was that all about? Weird and unnecessary.
Actually it was weird and creepy.
Which is of course exactly what they were shooting for.
It certainly gave my wife the willies.
All in all, a nearly perfect episode, and next week not just Jack, but also, "the Professor".
Damm this season has been good.
Tobias March
06-09-2007, 09:45 PM
Actually it was weird and creepy.
Which is of course exactly what they were shooting for.
It certainly gave my wife the willies.
All in all, a nearly perfect episode, and next week not just Jack, but also, "the Professor".
Damm this season has been good.
To be honest I think they dropped the ball just a little with that final series of snapshots of statues. But hell - it was such a fun episode I didn't mind.
"Stop saying Hull!"
;)
drwho
06-09-2007, 11:34 PM
Well that was freaky and a cool episode. Still im surprised we havent heard much more about saxon considering the season is almost over.
thehod
06-10-2007, 01:11 AM
Yeah. What was that all about? Weird and unnecessary.
On the contrary, imagine all those little kids who were scared behind the sofa by the statues.
Now you get the doctor telling you its not just those statues who could kill you, it could be all statues, everywhere. Every single one you see could kill you the moment you turn your back. So don't blink.
Presto. A nation of traumatised seven year olds.
Doctor Who doing what its meant to. Scaring the crap outta kids.
Haydn C
06-10-2007, 02:27 AM
On the contrary, imagine all those little kids who were scared behind the sofa by the statues.
Now you get the doctor telling you its not just those statues who could kill you, it could be all statues, everywhere. Every single one you see could kill you the moment you turn your back. So don't blink.
Presto. A nation of traumatised seven year olds.
Doctor Who doing what its meant to. Scaring the crap outta kids.
To hell with the kids, scared the wife and I enough! Nice Sapphire and Steel vibe to this latest episode, more from Stephen Moffat please.
The Fury
06-10-2007, 02:41 AM
I liked this episode a lot.
And the what was weird is that is wasn't until only after it I kinda thought how freaky that would actually be, with statues coming at ya.
Although I find it kinda sad that The Doctor met that detective, the Shipton guy, in the past and never had the hear to take him back to where he belongs.
Donald M.
06-10-2007, 03:00 AM
I liked this episode a lot.
And the what was weird is that is wasn't until only after it I kinda thought how freaky that would actually be, with statues coming at ya.
Although I find it kinda sad that The Doctor met that detective, the Shipton guy, in the past and never had the hear to take him back to where he belongs.
Good point, why couldn't the Doctor have waited out the 38 years then gone back for Martha and Shipton. At most it would be a minor inconvenience for him.
Shipton appears to have done okay for himself though, so I guess it isn't all bad.
Tobias March
06-10-2007, 05:01 AM
Good point, why couldn't the Doctor have waited out the 38 years then gone back for Martha and Shipton. At most it would be a minor inconvenience for him.
Shipton appears to have done okay for himself though, so I guess it isn't all bad.
Isn't there this whole thing about him interfering with the timeline? Since the Angels had cast Shipton back, the Doctor had to leave him in the 60's and let it play out. I seem to recall the episode with Rose's dad suggested that....course that's contradicted by the ep that introduces Martha as the Doctor was in that time period in two seperate instances.
Meh. Shipton was sacrificed for the sake of plot....live with it I guess.
Gladiaria_Alata
06-10-2007, 05:11 AM
Actually it was weird and creepy.
Which is of course exactly what they were shooting for.
It certainly gave my wife the willies.
All in all, a nearly perfect episode, and next week not just Jack, but also, "the Professor".
Damm this season has been good.
Gave me the willies too. *mutters* Stupid dreams. But yeah this season has been cool. *nods*
On the contrary, imagine all those little kids who were scared behind the sofa by the statues.
Now you get the doctor telling you its not just those statues who could kill you, it could be all statues, everywhere. Every single one you see could kill you the moment you turn your back. So don't blink.
Presto. A nation of traumatised seven year olds.
Doctor Who doing what its meant to. Scaring the crap outta kids.
To hell with the kids, scared the wife and I enough! Nice Sapphire and Steel vibe to this latest episode, more from Stephen Moffat please.
According to Wiki "Blink" is supposed to be as scary as "The Empty Child" and "The Doctor Dances".
The Fury
06-10-2007, 10:04 AM
Isn't there this whole thing about him interfering with the timeline? Since the Angels had cast Shipton back, the Doctor had to leave him in the 60's and let it play out. I seem to recall the episode with Rose's dad suggested that....course that's contradicted by the ep that introduces Martha as the Doctor was in that time period in two seperate instances.
Meh. Shipton was sacrificed for the sake of plot....live with it I guess.
But the Doctor and Martha were also sent back. Same as Shipton, I thought the idea of the Angels lived via feeding of a person timeline of what was to come. They exist in the present so when they send someone back everything has already occured so the future possibilities for that person, they feed off.
After that why not just take the guy back, if it's a case of the Tardis not being aloud in the same time period more then once (is this true or not?) then just put him back the instant the Tardis left when the DVD was enter and have the Doctor tell Sally what the list was....or something...
...anyway.
Good episode. :D
Well, the Doctor and Martha were time travellers, so it's not like the same rules necessarily apply to them.
SPAfreak
06-10-2007, 11:47 AM
Well, the Doctor and Martha were time travellers, so it's not like the same rules necessarily apply to them.
It doesn't matter. They enjoyed the lives that they had and the Doctor knew it. Even if he could have changed it I don't think he would have.
I think that this is my new favorite episode of the series. Spooky, fun and good.
If and when anyone brings up the argument that filler episodes always suck, I will bring up Blink as a great counter-example. It was just a sheerly fun episode that kept me guessing. And kudos to the director for all those couch-jumping moments :)
Karl H
06-10-2007, 01:54 PM
To be honest I think they dropped the ball just a little with that final series of snapshots of statues. But hell - it was such a fun episode I didn't mind.
"Stop saying Hull!"
;)
I thought they were a great touch. I'm hoping kids up and down the land will be scared of statues now! :evilsmile
Magneto_X
06-10-2007, 04:24 PM
The Doctor has said he has had a doctorate in a few things over the course of the series. I think in the classic series THE MOONBASE he mentions it.
However, why he chose the particular title is still a mystery.
In my personal opinion it's a rank that suits him.
He probably chose it because he's "fixing" the universe like it's a "patient".
And it's name that's a lot easier for people to remember then his real Gallifreyian name which is basically a mathematical formula.
Magneto_X
06-10-2007, 04:26 PM
The Kylie rumour does appear to be confirmed which is why Outpost Gallifrey are crying into their milk. After all casting a cheery pop singer would mean disaster for the programme.
Kylie wouldn't be to bad.
She was an actress before she was a pop singer.
Magneto_X
06-10-2007, 04:31 PM
Really, it wouldn't.
I've seen the finale on Youtube and it wasn't as bad as I expected.
Sure it was campy but it was still enjoyable.
Loved how they made The Master into a Dracula/vampire type.
Magneto_X
06-10-2007, 05:19 PM
I couldn't agree more. I honestly think I have just watched the best Doctor Who episode ever (so far).
I have to say the new Dr. Who show has been a great replacement ever since Buffy/Angel were cancelled.
Magneto_X
06-10-2007, 05:31 PM
She's not ruled out a return, it's just she's apparently booked for the next few years. By 2013 we could have had another two Doctors as Tennant seems likely to be gone by 2009 and his replacement may only stay for the usual three year run.
I'd like to see her return for an ep and have a throwdown/pass the torch to Martha like when Sarah Jane did to her in "School Reunion".
Magneto_X
06-10-2007, 05:40 PM
Another episode that showed off the casts acting abilities and should pretty much cement Martha as one of the best companions.
Martha's a lot better then Rose was but she still hasn't gotten as good as my favourite companion: Nyssa.
That girl would shoot anything that got in her way. She didn't bat an eyelash to f*ck up *Time Lords* to save The Doctor, too.
mattx110
06-10-2007, 07:56 PM
what happened to bananas?
the running joke is over...
Spike-X
06-10-2007, 10:22 PM
Another excellent episode. The scene with the statues moving closer when the light was flickering on and off was creepy as hell.
Also, the girl who played Sally was adorable. *sigh*
Tobias March
06-11-2007, 02:25 AM
I have to say the new Dr. Who show has been a great replacement ever since Buffy/Angel were cancelled.
That's definitely what RTD was aiming for with the relaunch. Funnily enough, I reckon the third season has finally broken away from any trappings of Buffydom.
SPAfreak
06-11-2007, 04:21 AM
Also, the girl who played Sally was adorable. *sigh*
Wasn't she though?
Paul McEnery
06-11-2007, 01:41 PM
Anyone else notice that the bad guys were based on a kids' playground game?
torippu
06-11-2007, 11:11 PM
I'm finally all caught up and "Blink" was a crackling good episode. This was written by Steven Moffat, right? I also liked his creepy episode in the first season/series set during the Blitz. Isn't this the same guy who created Coupling? If so, I'm really amazed at his versitility.
Spike-X
06-12-2007, 02:54 AM
Anyone else notice that the bad guys were based on a kids' playground game?
Yes.
10chrs
Karl H
06-12-2007, 06:34 AM
I'm finally all caught up and "Blink" was a crackling good episode. This was written by Steven Moffat, right? I also liked his creepy episode in the first season/series set during the Blitz. Isn't this the same guy who created Coupling? If so, I'm really amazed at his versitility.
Indeed he is. Or at least that sounds familiar.
Just watched Family of Blood, really enjoyed that episode.
king mob
06-12-2007, 12:40 PM
To hell with the kids, scared the wife and I enough! Nice Sapphire and Steel vibe to this latest episode, more from Stephen Moffat please.
I only watched 'Blink' this afternoon after recovering from a festival at the weekend. So I was pretty knackered but I'm glad that it's been noticed that this was hugely influenced by 'Sapphire & Steel', but not in a nasty cheap rip-off type of way.
The script was lovely and sharp, (the 'Sparrow and Nightingale' line being dismissed as 'too ITV' made me hoot. The dig at the OG lot when the copper mentioned the Tardis's windows were 'the wrong size') ) the scares were spot on (the end with the angels freaked me out after a weekends indulgences) and the end was utterly gratuitous and only there to scare the shite out the little kiddies and that's what made it so good.
If there is to be a Doctor-lite episode each year then it should be this quality. This was a bloody joy & we've now had three great episodes in a row. Let's hope the last three keep the quality up.
adamthered
06-12-2007, 01:02 PM
Let's hope the last three keep the quality up.
With the return of Cap'n Jack you know he'll want more than just the quality kept up ;)
Just watched the last four episodes of the past two days. I enjoyed them all. Especially the two parter. Great to see Jessica Stephenson again. A very emotional story.
And Blink, dear sweet jesus, that was just a fantastic episode. Those Angels were scary; sure there were plenty of behind the sofa viewers Saturday night.
Only three more episodes to go. I don't know how they're going to even begin with the Saxon stuff in with just three left. Maybe that carries over to next series?
Haydn C
06-12-2007, 01:15 PM
I only watched 'Blink' this afternoon after recovering from a festival at the weekend. So I was pretty knackered but I'm glad that it's been noticed that this was hugely influenced by 'Sapphire & Steel', but not in a nasty cheap rip-off type of way.
The script was lovely and sharp, (the 'Sparrow and Nightingale' line being dismissed as 'too ITV' made me hoot. The dig at the OG lot when the copper mentioned the Tardis's windows were 'the wrong size') ) the scares were spot on (the end with the angels freaked me out after a weekends indulgences) and the end was utterly gratuitous and only there to scare the shite out the little kiddies and that's what made it so good.
If there is to be a Doctor-lite episode each year then it should be this quality. This was a bloody joy & we've now had three great episodes in a row. Let's hope the last three keep the quality up.
I love Sapphire & Steel with it's creeping weirdness and paranoia. Got the region 1 box set awhile back.
I'm really enjoying this series, there has been the odd duff moment but generally great quality. The two main characters in Blink would make decent companions I reckon.
I'm looking forward to Derek Jacobi next week.
king mob
06-13-2007, 12:34 PM
Apparently that new 'Jekyll' series with James bloody Nesbitt that starts this weekend is written by Stephen Moffat.
Balls, that's more telly I have to watch.
Karl H
06-13-2007, 12:45 PM
Apparently that new 'Jekyll' series with James bloody Nesbitt that starts this weekend is written by Stephen Moffat.
Balls, that's more telly I have to watch.
James Nesbitt's awfulness more than negates the Moffat effect for me.
He should go back to doing yellow pages adverts.
king mob
06-16-2007, 06:39 AM
The BBC press office has released the synopsis for the last episode. Obviously it's a massive spoiler for the climax but if they pull it off then it promises to be bloody wonderful.
Spike-X
06-16-2007, 06:43 AM
The BBC press office has released the synopsis for the last episode. Obviously it's a massive spoiler for the climax...
Won't be reading that then! Thanks for the warning.
oh hell yesssssss!
that was ace that was.
the motherfookin master!
Tonights episode was luvverly. Lots of science-fictiony bits, Captain Jack, a fair dose of horror, Derek Jacobi and... well, if you watch it, then you'll know all about how freaking fantastic that ending was.
Who wrote the episode, anyway?
Oh, and I liked that the explanation for the whole of Torchwood was basically "Oh, I needed something to do while I was waiting for you to show up."
Gladiaria_Alata
06-16-2007, 01:13 PM
OMGWTFHC!! :eek:
Good to see Jack is still Jack. :D
Popgun
06-16-2007, 01:16 PM
Tonights episode was luvverly. Lots of science-fictiony bits, Captain Jack, a fair dose of horror, Derek Jacobi and... well, if you watch it, then you'll know all about how freaking fantastic that ending was.
Who wrote the episode, anyway?
Russell T.
did anyone hear a previous masters voice before he opened the watch?
king mob
06-16-2007, 01:26 PM
Don't read this post if you haven't seen 'Utopia', you've been warned!
Well that was simply fucking wonderful. It managed to cram in the return of Captain Jack, lots of stuff about the end of the universe, Derek Jacobi turning in a (or is it two) great performance and a quite brilliant ending and cliffhanger. Then of course there's John Simm....
The story itself was fairly ordinary and a bit old-Who but that really wasn't the point. The point was to set up the return of The Master and the story served this well.
I'm raving because this is the sort of cracking telly we need more of, and because I'll have to bloody wait til I get back from Glastonbury to see next weeks episode so I'm getting my raving out the way now.
So basically this series has made me forget about the problems of the last series and has shown a consistancy that was lacking last year. Hopefully the last two live up to expectations.
king mob
06-16-2007, 01:29 PM
did anyone hear a previous masters voice before he opened the watch?
Ah, it wasn't just me then. I thought I could hear Delgado and Ainley's voices.
who here watched the trailer for next weeks episode?
you've just gotta love that dig at the christmas invasion by the master.
what this country really needs, right now, is a doctor
and then that grin
just soooooo goood.
drwho
06-16-2007, 03:10 PM
So is Saxon the master? what was with the different scenes where captain jack gets picked up in torchwood and then in this episode? I saw a clip and the scenes werent similar at all.
Eclips0
06-16-2007, 07:10 PM
Yup Saxon is The Master, I told everyone on here and everyone on KMC and no one believed me.
Now it all makes sense, he went through time turning people against The Doctor. I can't wait till they reveal all the things he's messed with in time. I hope they don't kill him off after all this, The Doctor needs That Master. Everyone needs their nemesis.
W00T!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That was just about as good as television can possibly get.
I thought that Jack was great, the Professor was great, and both versions of the Master were spot on perfect.
Like I keep saying, this is just an awsome season.
mcgaffer
06-16-2007, 08:43 PM
I was born in 1982 and lived through the last years of the Doctor. When i saw they were remaking it i spent a year convincing my younger anti-scifi sister to watch it. She loved it and not only that she recognised what a big deal it was that the Daleks were back. She saw my excitement and knew it had to be something good.
When the Cybermen turned up i went on for hours about classic Dr.Who and she knew she was in for a treat.
My sister has only just calmed me down, my favourite Who villain has returned. My sister had heard of the Daleks and was looking forward to her first Dalek storys. She got the gist from me how big a deal the Cybermen were but after seeing me today when the Master turned up she's expecting the greatest story ever and all i can say is please don't let me or her down. For almost three seasons iv been asking for the Master with my sister sat there thinking who is this guy that my brother wants before even the Daleks. Please let this be the Master to put all the other incarnations to shame.
drwho
06-16-2007, 11:23 PM
Saw utopia finally. the new master seems like a corn ball from what we have seen. I always considered him to be more serious a character, conservative, and devious. Im not so excited about this. One thing I thought was cool is they actually brought back the whole watch thing from the previous episodes.
Donald M.
06-17-2007, 12:22 AM
Saw utopia finally. the new master seems like a corn ball from what we have seen. I always considered him to be more serious a character, conservative, and devious.
Well, he is and he isn't.
It's my understanding that the longest-lasting incarnation of the Master was known to be a bit over-the-top and that this is the way the people running the show wanted it.
Ah, it wasn't just me then. I thought I could hear Delgado and Ainley's voices.
The BBC website confirms that earlier Master's voices were included. Y'know, it took until well into the third season before we got on-screen confirmation of the Doctor's original series incarnations, in the form of the sketches in his journal in Human Nature. The Master's back for one episode, and he gets not sketches, but actual audio from the previous series - it's blatant favouritism! :p
Saw utopia finally. the new master seems like a corn ball from what we have seen. I always considered him to be more serious a character, conservative, and devious. Im not so excited about this.
The Master, as classic as he is, has usually been more of the mustache-twirling variety with the constant ace up his sleeve. The way he kept eluding capture in his first season sort of wiped away all that notion of him being written 'seriously.'
That's not a knock at Old Who at all, it's just that writing these days is a bit more multi-faceted. And, this Master should be more dangerous than ever, as he's now hellbent on revenge, fresh from nearly forgetting his Time Lord life at the end of all creation, and a lot more sinister and psychotic than ever before. Delgado and Ainsley's Masters may have been criminal masterminds like Moriarty, but from what was shown in the preview a few weeks ago, this is more like a Time Lord version of Hannibal Lecter (In terms of pure evil, cunning, and brutality. I don't mean the cannibalism :) ).
Oh, and spoilers for those who haven't seen the post-credits trailer:
With the return of the Master, it seems fitting that another old nemesis of his is coming back. And by that, I mean: UNIT! Hell Yeah. I hope they play a fairly large role, since no one else on Earth besides the Doctor really knows more about how to deal with the Master than UNIT.
Saw utopia finally. the new master seems like a corn ball from what we have seen. I always considered him to be more serious a character, conservative, and devious.
He's been without his memories for decades, and just got them back. He's just regenerated, which as we saw with the Doctor can leave you a bit manic for a while till you settle down. And he's just pulled one over on the Doctor. Take these combined and he's going to be a bit on the bouncy side just at the moment - wait till we see him next episode, when he'll have had time to settle down.
Spike-X
06-17-2007, 04:53 AM
He's just regenerated, which as we saw with the Doctor can leave you a bit manic for a while till you settle down.
That was pretty much RTD's and Phil Collinson's explanation in Confidential.
king mob
06-17-2007, 05:43 AM
Saw utopia finally. the new master seems like a corn ball from what we have seen. I always considered him to be more serious a character, conservative, and devious. Im not so excited about this. One thing I thought was cool is they actually brought back the whole watch thing from the previous episodes.
Delgado's Master was devious and fairly subtle when he first appeared, well as subtle as you could get in the Pertwee era, but Delgado was a foil to Pertwee and worked brilliantly.
Ainley was never allowed to play the role as he wanted and was constantly told by JNT to ham it up (something they discuss in detail in the 'New Beginnings' DVD set), so it wasn't until 'Survival' that Ainley managed to play The Master his way, which was more akin to the early performances of Delgado.
Let's not talk about Eric Roberts. Really, let's try to forget him though watching the episode again you can hear his voice in the chorus of past Masters.
The Master has been played fairly differently and as pointed out, he had just regenerated so was fairly manic as he was in a new, younger body. The trailers don't show Simm playing it the same way, nor do I think Russell Davies would waste an actor as good as John Simm in such a lazy way.
Karl H
06-17-2007, 06:27 AM
Oh my God. That was awesome. I literally bounced into the pub after that episode!
Loved it. The watch was a complete twist.
And am I right in thinking that the aftorementionned Utopia seemed a lot like Gallifrey? That was just immense. Seeing the watch I nearly nerdgasmed.
The Fury
06-17-2007, 08:54 AM
Oh my God. That was awesome. I literally bounced into the pub after that episode!
Loved it. The watch was a complete twist.
.
Ditto. Before then I was just thinking it was a good episode and such alike, Jack was cool as ever (never did think he was good in the Torchwood series).
But the last 10 minutes or more...amazing. :D
The BBC website confirms that earlier Master's voices were included. Y'know, it took until well into the third season before we got on-screen confirmation of the Doctor's original series incarnations, in the form of the sketches in his journal in Human Nature. The Master's back for one episode, and he gets not sketches, but actual audio from the previous series - it's blatant favouritism! :p
Well there was that whole School Reunion episode with Sarah Jane Smith that certainly made all sorts of mentions to incidents from the original series.
And that was back in season two.
Karl H
06-17-2007, 09:01 AM
And running.
Lots and lots of running.
As Captain Jack said "I've missed this".
There hadn't been enough running in a Doctor Who episode this series!
And running.
Lots and lots of running.
As Captain Jack said "I've missed this".
There hadn't been enough running in a Doctor Who episode this series!
There was lots of running in the Lazarus episode.
Karl H
06-17-2007, 09:40 AM
There was lots of running in the Lazarus episode.
Yeah true but it wasn't as good. Er...
Let's not talk about Eric Roberts. Really, let's try to forget him though watching the episode again you can hear his voice in the chorus of past Masters.
I've loved how NuWho drops in bits of fanservice here and there, and I never really object, but... a bad memory is still a bad memory :)
The BBC website confirms that earlier Master's voices were included. Y'know, it took until well into the third season before we got on-screen confirmation of the Doctor's original series incarnations, in the form of the sketches in his journal in Human Nature. The Master's back for one episode, and he gets not sketches, but actual audio from the previous series - it's blatant favouritism! :p
What about series one, with the stuff in the museum and the appearance of UNIT?
Monkey
06-17-2007, 12:40 PM
Remember will still have have all this "He's dangerous" and men in black suits stuff coming from Martha's mum which could be connected.
What about series one, with the stuff in the museum and the appearance of UNIT?
The Cyberman head could've been just a mere prop and UNIT didn't have any staff members on screen who would personally know the Doctor (say, someone like a retired Brigadier or a retired Benton or so).
I've always thought there was a connection to the old series, but apparently there wasn't enough to bridge the gap for some Whovians.
king mob
06-17-2007, 04:32 PM
The Cyberman head could've been just a mere prop and UNIT didn't have any staff members on screen who would personally know the Doctor (say, someone like a retired Brigadier or a retired Benton or so).
I've always thought there was a connection to the old series, but apparently there wasn't enough to bridge the gap for some Whovians.
There's been a link since the start but it's still not enough for the OG fanboys.
There's been a link since the start but it's still not enough for the OG fanboys.
Frankly, my expectations for the show were so high that the sound of the TARDIS's engines were enough to convince me of the link :)
Magneto_X
06-17-2007, 06:08 PM
Remember will still have have all this "He's dangerous" and men in black suits stuff coming from Martha's mum which could be connected.
That's all tied to Saxon. IIRC it was Saxon himself which convinced Martha's mother he was dangerous in "The Lazarus Experiment" & I'm certain the men in black types Martha's mother had monitoring her call to Martha were related to Saxon. In fact, didn't the women in charge say something about Saxon in the epilogue of "48"?
Heck, I'm surprised no one's mentioned Martha saying, "I know that voice!" when Simm Master was gloating over the speakers.
Magneto_X
06-17-2007, 06:09 PM
There's been a link since the start but it's still not enough for the OG fanboys.
Are you talking about Sarah Jane & K-9 or something else?
That character alone is convincing enough for me that the new series is tied to the old.
Magneto_X
06-17-2007, 06:15 PM
Heck, I'm surprised no one's mentioned Martha saying, "I know that voice!" when Simm Master was gloating over the speakers.
I can buy Martha not recognising it.
1) She's only met him briefly in Lazarus Experiment & aside from noticing he was creepy (unless I'm not remembering it correctly) she didn't pay him much attention, 2) IIRC she didn't pay much attention to politics before meeting the Doctor so she wouldn't have much information to reference his voice to (i.e. tv/web appearances) & 3) Saxon was only speaking for a minute, perhaps less, before he took off in the TARDIS.
If she had seen his appearance she *might* have recognised him but that's a long shot, as well. He might have looked familiar due to the posters and media she's see (which wouldn't have been much since she's an intern at that hospital). But that's a long shot, too.
I can buy Martha not recognising it.
Oh, no, I mean, Martha recognizing that voice (even if she can't pin it down) provides a VERY important clue for the viewers into the whole ruse of the Master in modern-day and with Martha's mom, for people who aren't aware of the Master/Saxon connection. It's such a vital hint but nobody's really talking about it (or how amazingly written the connection is, heh).
I hope the new incarnation of the Master calms down a bit. He always seems to work better when he's controlled and refined in his mannerisms.
I hope the new incarnation of the Master calms down a bit. He always seems to work better when he's controlled and refined in his mannerisms.
I think he was just manic because he had just regenerated, like every other time we see the Doctor do it.
Then again... we do see him throwing papers and such. Time Lords tend to change personalities with each life, but this Master, in order to take over the office of PM and deal with the President, would have to be VERY cunning and a bit more ruthless than ever before.
Magneto_X
06-17-2007, 06:25 PM
Oh, no, I mean, Martha recognizing that voice (even if she can't pin it down) provides a VERY important clue for the viewers into the whole ruse of the Master in modern-day and with Martha's mom, for people who aren't aware of the Master/Saxon connection. It's such a vital hint but nobody's really talking about it (or how amazingly written the connection is, heh).
My mistake, I thought you meant Martha herself.
Lots of Who viewers caught that. I'm sure of it. I know I did in no time.
Saxon is one of the current "big topics" of the Who fandom IIRC, you can bet fans know what's going on.
Cyke:
To bad we didn't get to know much about Jacobi's Master. That guy was a scary mofo.
My mistake, I thought you meant Martha herself.
Lots of Who viewers caught that. I'm sure of it. I know I did in no time.
Saxon is one of the current "big topics" of the Who fandom IIRC, you can bet fans know what's going on.
Well, Martha's line was just so quick that it could've been easily been a throwaway line. But I like that in TV and Film, where a single throwaway line actually plays an important part in the story down the road. I'm a sucker for that sort of thing.
Cyke:
To bad we didn't get to know much about Jacobi's Master. That guy was a scary mofo.
Tell me about it. The killer thing is that he was just OH so likeable and grandfatherly in his nice Yana persona, and it was great seeing the Doctor find someone he considers to be an intellectual peer again.
And THEN, when everything goes to hell, this lovable and kind old man turns into a twisted but smooth psychopath in a way only the Master can, it's just so jarring and greatly played out by Jacobi. Cheers all around for playing a part that, in the wrong hands, could have ruined a Who Icon. Jacobi is a worthy addition to the Master's legacy (Eric who?) .
Spike-X
06-18-2007, 03:43 AM
And running.
Lots and lots of running.
As Captain Jack said "I've missed this".
There hadn't been enough running in a Doctor Who episode this series!
And in a quarry, no less!
king mob
06-18-2007, 05:14 AM
Are you talking about Sarah Jane & K-9 or something else?
That character alone is convincing enough for me that the new series is tied to the old.
I've said before somewhere that there's a section of the OG lot that won't be happy unless the programme features Sylvester McCoy as the Doctor running down endless corridors being chased by Fenric & Davros. They're very much of the school of thought that what will help the new series is bringing back the old series.
Spike-X
06-18-2007, 08:34 PM
There's been a link since the start but it's still not enough for the OG fanboys.
"Hmm...the denial is strong in these ones!"
Tobias March
06-19-2007, 01:50 AM
I know it's been said a number of times already - but the Futurekind were basically Reavers right? Was this just another loveletter on RTD's part to Whedon, or can the man not think of anything new?
There's been a link since the start but it's still not enough for the OG fanboys.
I just got around to watching the Sarah Jane Adventures (a bit late, I know), but your comment just stuck with me. The episode has a brief 'cameo' of sorts by the Brigadier himself, along with Harry Sullivan, so I wonder just how some of those OG folks maintained that the new Who was separate from the old.
Alan Lynch
06-19-2007, 04:15 AM
I know it's been said a number of times already - but the Futurekind were basically Reavers right? Was this just another loveletter on RTD's part to Whedon, or can the man not think of anything new?
In fairness, the feral future human template wasn't invented by Joss. In the Doctor Who Confidential on afterwards, Mad Max was mentioned. And there's probably others predating that. It's not been an original idea for some time now, so I'm not holding that against RTD here. He needed an outside threat to distract from what's going on with Yana. They fit the part.
king mob
06-19-2007, 04:55 AM
In fairness, the feral future human template wasn't invented by Joss. In the Doctor Who Confidential on afterwards, Mad Max was mentioned. And there's probably others predating that. It's not been an original idea for some time now, so I'm not holding that against RTD here. He needed an outside threat to distract from what's going on with Yana. They fit the part.
Exactly, the futurekind were a red herring to distract us from the Master's return.
Paul McEnery
06-19-2007, 08:57 PM
In fairness, the feral future human template wasn't invented by Joss. In the Doctor Who Confidential on afterwards, Mad Max was mentioned. And there's probably others predating that. It's not been an original idea for some time now, so I'm not holding that against RTD here. He needed an outside threat to distract from what's going on with Yana. They fit the part.
Bollocks to fairness, though.
Everyone I know who looks like that is exactly the people you want on board fixing your spaceship.
Whereas elderly professors, god bless them, should be given a cup of tea and shoved in the corner.
Spike-X
06-19-2007, 10:42 PM
Everyone I know who looks like that is exactly the people you want on board fixing your spaceship.
Sure, but everyone you know who looks like that probably wouldn't be trying to eat the other occupants of said spaceship.
Green Goblin
06-23-2007, 02:34 PM
Sound of drums excllcent John Simms as the master was excllcent love the refereces to Unit and to torchwood. Love the referece to the classic series where the master mistaken a children's television series for an alien life fourm. Tennant was great as the doctor as usal like seeing the old verison of him . Can't wait till the cliff finale
Gladiaria_Alata
06-23-2007, 02:39 PM
I missed most of this ep. *grumpy*
The Master was still a bit manic, though.
Paul McEnery
06-23-2007, 02:44 PM
Sure, but everyone you know who looks like that probably wouldn't be trying to eat the other occupants of said spaceship.
Rather my point, isn't it.
Paul McEnery
06-23-2007, 02:47 PM
The Drums... THE DRUMS!!
Yeah, I loved the use of music and drums to tell us what was going on.
The drums, of course, were playing the Dr. Who theme song rhythm. And then the tune of it started in the radiation room. So when the watch came out, it was more of an "of course!".
So now I'm waiting to see what the Doctor did to the Tardis with the screwdriver. Make it come right back, perhaps?
Though the trademark "I'm sorry" makes me think he sent it somewhere very bad indeed.
Spike-X
06-23-2007, 07:34 PM
Wow.
Just...wow.
Tobias March
06-23-2007, 08:18 PM
Wow.
Just...wow.
Oh c'mon spill....I missed it.
Spike-X
06-23-2007, 08:25 PM
Download it.
Personally my favorite moment was when the music started and Saxon's wife started to dance about.
The whole episode was just wonderfully twisted.
And of course I can't wait until next week.
Spike-X
06-23-2007, 09:34 PM
Personally my favorite moment was when the music started and Saxon's wife started to dance about.
I hated that bit, but probably because I'm just so sick of that song (it's by an Aussie group, and it's been played to death over here), and I didn't for a moment think they'd actually use it in the episode!
The whole episode was just wonderfully twisted.
So, so many great moments:
The Master and the Doctor 'catching up'
"You've been watching too much TV". Nice swipe at silly Internet speculation.
The old-school Time Lord outfits!
The Master's wife/companion - you just know she'd be an absolute freak in bed
Jelly babies!!!
HELICARRIER!!!
And of course I can't wait until next week.
Hell yeah. RTD has done his most important job perfectly - making the audience wonder just how the hell the Doctor is going to get out of this one and save the world?!
The TARDIS is in pieces, the Doctor's body is so old he can barely move, and Martha's turned tail and run (I'd be surprised if she was still the Doctor's companion next season). Where to from here?
I hated that bit, but probably because I'm just so sick of that song (it's by an Aussie group, and it's been played to death over here), and I didn't for a moment think they'd actually use it in the episode!
Luckily I never heard the song before, so I didn't have the overplayed problem.
Watching that lusty smile on her face as she looked at him and they way she just hung on Saxon, it was like watching the anti-Rose.
Which of course makes perfect sense.
Spike-X
06-23-2007, 10:33 PM
Yeah, they really played up the "mirror image of the Doctor" angle. The companion, the laser screwdriver (anybody else notice that the Master's is...well...a lot bigger than the Doctor's?) and the jelly babies!!
Donald M.
06-23-2007, 11:37 PM
So, what do we all think the Toclafane really are?
My guess, in order to survive their greatest enemy, the Time Lords have essentially become their greatest enemy. They're Dalek-like constructs containing either Time Lord consciousnesses, or perhaps the Time War turned them into mutants - like what happened to the Dalek - which now occupy those orbs.
I think my favourite part was Captain Jack talking to Martha about being in love with the Doctor.
Spike-X
06-24-2007, 02:32 AM
My absolute favourite part, I think, was:
"You're insane!" then the Master giving it two thumbs up while grinning crazily under his gas mask.
tricksterpup
06-24-2007, 03:21 AM
JEEZUS FREAKING H CHRIST.
how can this series get any better than this?? WOW!!! just WOW..
Now for the guess work on the Toclafane..
How about Cybermen from this reality? The ones that invaded earth last year was of course from another dimension and these could be an up graded version?
Ok folks lets see who it is.
Monsters and Aliens list
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Doctor_Who_monsters_and_aliens
Villains list
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Doctor_Who_villains
tricksterpup
06-24-2007, 03:26 AM
So, what do we all think the Toclafane really are?
My guess, in order to survive their greatest enemy, the Time Lords have essentially become their greatest enemy. They're Dalek-like constructs containing either Time Lord consciousnesses, or perhaps the Time War turned them into mutants - like what happened to the Dalek - which now occupy those orbs.
Wow.. that is a very interesting theory and it would blow the doctor's mind but it wouldn't make to much sense since the Master asked the Doctor what happened to the Time lords. But i am not discounting this theory at all.
And since everyone is talking about how insane and evil the Master is. Would you not think that he is more of an Evil Version of Tom Baker's Doctor? All he needed was the Scarf.
Haydn C
06-24-2007, 03:47 AM
Just adding to the chorus of approval, great episode with an aray of great touches. One of my favourites being The Master asking if the Doctor is asking him on a date.
I do like the idea of making him more like the Doctor adding that same slightly manic comedy to his character is fantastic.
tricksterpup
06-24-2007, 03:54 AM
Folks
Harold Saxon: The man you can trust.
http://www.haroldsaxon.co.uk/
Oh this is site is great!!
FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS
Q. What are Harold Saxon's plans for the National Health Service?
A. The present shortage of doctors and medical students is certainly high on Harold Saxon's agenda.
Donald M.
06-24-2007, 04:32 AM
Wow.. that is a very interesting theory and it would blow the doctor's mind but it wouldn't make to much sense since the Master asked the Doctor what happened to the Time lords. But i am not discounting this the
Well, he could have been lying about not knowing what happened to Gallifrey or the Time Lords. He had the Doctor's TARDIS and who knows how much use he got out of it before settling down on Earth and becoming Saxon.
He was a part of the Time War. He may have run away and become human to hide himself, but he's not stupid. He reemerges to find Gallifrey missing and no trace of the Time Lords I think he can put two and two together. Who knows what he might have found while looking for his world and his people.
I think he hardly needed the Doctor to explain anything to him, the whole conversation seemed to be about the Master basically saying to the Doctor, "I'm better and smarter than you, but I'll let you explain a few things to me and confide in you a little because you're weak and if I get you to sympathize with me a little, you'll hesitate when it counts and you'll never suspect what's really going on."
My theory's likely way off, but I'd hardly put it past the Master to pretend not to know what happened to the Time Lords to make the eventual revelation hurt just that much more when the Master reveals it.
You can just picture him saying something along the lines of, "I found them when you couldn't." and how much that would hurt.
jadrax
06-24-2007, 05:45 AM
So, what do we all think the Toclafane really are?
If I told you your hearts would break.
Speculation on my part,
Apparently looking at the etymology of the word, it may be a latin-greek hybrid to refer to the Children of a temple.
Given their rather child like voice patterns and responses, I think they are human children, placed in in robot shells.
Note by the way, that apparently this is what Darleks were originally supposed to look like, but the design was deemed to expensive to produce.
Karl H
06-24-2007, 06:21 AM
So, what do we all think the Toclafane really are?
My guess, in order to survive their greatest enemy, the Time Lords have essentially become their greatest enemy. They're Dalek-like constructs containing either Time Lord consciousnesses, or perhaps the Time War turned them into mutants - like what happened to the Dalek - which now occupy those orbs.
I'm kind of thinking along those lines. Of course, I also believe that the 'Utopia' they were looking for last episode was Gallifrey.
Loved the Master's origin too. All of it was just immense. The music, the direction, just perfect episodic TV. This show just gets to me like no other TV show out there. It's just so perfect. And, hopefully we now get to see Martha really let loose and prove herself as a companion.
drwho
06-24-2007, 09:50 AM
I'm not too excited about the whole turning the doctor old. I would have liked a little better info about what a paradox machine is. One bright side is the whole mystery of the Toclafade. Perhaps the people from the end of the universe that were looking for utopia found it and evolved into those things, or it would be real bizarre if they were timelords, but why have the kiddy voices. Another theory is perhaps those are the creatures that make up the hearts of the tardises. So Martha has to do who knows what on how to save the world. This should be rather interesting how she does this because she seems way outgunned, way out numbered, and I dont know how she is gonna pull the resources out of her @$$ to do this, but we all know she will. I'm hoping there is a lot to more to solving this problem than just martha pulls and releases the tardis's inner guts.
If I told you your hearts would break.
Speculation on my part,
Apparently looking at the etymology of the word, it may be a latin-greek hybrid to refer to the Children of a temple.
Given their rather child like voice patterns and responses, I think they are human children, placed in in robot shells.
Note by the way, that apparently this is what Darleks were originally supposed to look like, but the design was deemed to expensive to produce.
Interesting. Maybe he did what the time lords did and took earth children at the age of 8?
drwho
06-24-2007, 11:08 AM
Interesting. Maybe he did what the time lords did and took earth children at the age of 8?
Yeah but the Master was transferred right to earth after the last episodes for only 18 months. You would think him kidnapping a billion kids would be noticed.
Oh ya whoops forgot about that.
Tobias March
06-24-2007, 03:38 PM
Perhaps it has something to do with the Time War. He mentions he was brought back by the Gallifreyans to be the ultimate warrior, but then claims he ran. For the last three seasons the Doctor has being carrying the guilt of having taken the action to end that war. What if the Master had a larger role in the destruction of the Daleks and Time Lords than has been revealed?
Also he mentions the Toclafade as childhood boogeymen, something buried by the Timelords perhaps? Something shameful in their past that the Master rediscovered before he banished himself to the end of the universe? Plus there's that vortex they emerged from. A prison?
Well next week anyway.
Kara Zor El
06-24-2007, 03:49 PM
Some good speculation work here folks. I'd like to add to it.
The Toclafade are running from something. A darkness threatens them. What is that? And usually The Master double crosses his allies.
Maybe the orbs contain all the Galifrian children who were driven mad when looking into the Vortex. Maybe the Timelords imprisoned them in the orbs and banished them into a sort of Phantom Zone, and after the Timelords perished, the power that keeps it going has waned and the zone is slowly collapsing, becoming nothing, darkness, death. The Toclafade have to escape.
mattx110
06-24-2007, 04:08 PM
Some good speculation work here folks. I'd like to add to it.
The Toclafade are running from something. A darkness threatens them. What is that? And usually The Master double crosses his allies.
Maybe the orbs contain all the Galifrian children who were driven mad when looking into the Vortex. Maybe the Timelords imprisoned them in the orbs and banished them into a sort of Phantom Zone, and after the Timelords perished, the power that keeps it going has waned and the zone is slowly collapsing, becoming nothing, darkness, death. The Toclafade have to escape.
i dunno. at first i thought a new race of baby daleks. cause nothing would make the doctor madder than rebuilding a race devoted to destroying life.
and evil children are creepy, even if they're alien robots.
and jack has a history with "The darkness"... maybe he'll be useful.
edit: how does everyone feel about all this new continuity stuff? the origin of the master. our first real look at gallifrey from the mill.
I lean towards the Master having created the Toclafane, given how very convenient the number of them is.`
mattx110
06-24-2007, 04:31 PM
and how could i forget. the end of the harriet jones saga. very sad.:(
and every time the master did something "Doctory" i just wanted to smack him.
Dizzy D
06-24-2007, 04:43 PM
I know it's been said a number of times already - but the Futurekind were basically Reavers right? Was this just another loveletter on RTD's part to Whedon, or can the man not think of anything new?
I was actually thinking Morlocks more than Reavers when I first saw them.
Nosgoth Phantom
06-24-2007, 05:13 PM
My theory is that if the Daleks and Time Lords were in the time war and were both destroyed, it is quite possible that they were both sent out of time and space itself aka (the void). My theory is that the Toclafane are a unity race of both Time Lord and Dalek. The TARDIS and the paradox machine seemed to react as if it had opened that void in the sky. It would also explain how the void called out to the Master into releasing them. Could the Time Lords have known their own ultimate fate and resurrected The Master so he could eventually release them from the void (the darkness itself)?
jadrax
06-24-2007, 05:52 PM
I was actually thinking Morlocks more than Reavers when I first saw them.
They were apparently actually based on the bad guys from Mad Max.
Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if the Toclafaine were just modified versions of the Cybermen.
I don't have a reason to say so, but I just do.
Kara Zor El
06-25-2007, 04:12 AM
Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if the Toclafaine were just modified versions of the Cybermen.
I don't have a reason to say so, but I just do.
But they are emotional and Cybermren aren't.
Kara Zor El
06-25-2007, 04:14 AM
My theory is that if the Daleks and Time Lords were in the time war and were both destroyed, it is quite possible that they were both sent out of time and space itself aka (the void). My theory is that the Toclafane are a unity race of both Time Lord and Dalek. The TARDIS and the paradox machine seemed to react as if it had opened that void in the sky. It would also explain how the void called out to the Master into releasing them. Could the Time Lords have known their own ultimate fate and resurrected The Master so he could eventually release them from the void (the darkness itself)?
I love that idea.
But they are emotional and Cybermren aren't.
Yeah, I realize that. And they're also much more advanced, too. But they've also been chopped up and can fly, so who knows what else could happen to them, especially in a place where time doesn't exist?
But yeah, it's just a hunch, and a rather uneducated one at that. I'm not big on playing guessing games with upcoming episodes because if any one of us is right about something, it sort of robs some of the excitement of the episode. But heck, it IS irresistible to guess, I admit that :)
Karl H
06-25-2007, 10:18 AM
I love guessing for that reason! I'm rubbish with spoilers for stuff that gets screened in the US first so Doctor Who actually allows me the chance to genuinely be surprised!
blackphoenix
06-25-2007, 04:16 PM
Grrr....can't read any of this! I don't wanna be spoiled!
One question: did that guy with the computer chip in his head that opened up and looked like a third eye in the middle of his forehead ever return?
One question: did that guy with the computer chip in his head that opened up and looked like a third eye in the middle of his forehead ever return?
Nope, he never came back.
Paul McEnery
06-25-2007, 05:11 PM
BTW: For 'Mercan fans...
The fact that Ann Widdecombe appeared in support of a genocidal maniac for Prime Minister pleases me greatly. You are encouraged to use google.
tricksterpup
06-25-2007, 06:06 PM
My theory is that if the Daleks and Time Lords were in the time war and were both destroyed, it is quite possible that they were both sent out of time and space itself aka (the void). My theory is that the Toclafane are a unity race of both Time Lord and Dalek. The TARDIS and the paradox machine seemed to react as if it had opened that void in the sky. It would also explain how the void called out to the Master into releasing them. Could the Time Lords have known their own ultimate fate and resurrected The Master so he could eventually release them from the void (the darkness itself)?
You know, we are forgetting that there were other races that were caught up in that final war. Remember season one??? We saw a few of the banished or what was left of some races due to that war.
This show is starting to shape up nicely, I think we are actually starting to see what the entire plan has always been.
Sean Whitmore
06-25-2007, 06:13 PM
You know, we are forgetting that there were other races that were caught up in that final war. Remember season one??? We saw a few of the banished or what was left of some races due to that war.
That's right, wasn't the Nestene Consciousness from the first episode the last of his kind as well?
SEAN
Nosgoth Phantom
06-25-2007, 06:31 PM
That's right, wasn't the Nestene Consciousness from the first episode the last of his kind as well?
SEAN
That thing that creates plastic automatons? I think it was said that they lost their food supply in " a war" when their protein planets were destroyed. That could indeed be the "Time War".
Karl H
06-26-2007, 02:34 AM
I was actually thinking about this last night and believe we are seeing the plot possibly develop into the restoration of the timelords.
Kara Zor El
06-26-2007, 11:26 AM
Grrr....can't read any of this! I don't wanna be spoiled!
One question: did that guy with the computer chip in his head that opened up and looked like a third eye in the middle of his forehead ever return?
he waits tables in manchester believe it or not.
That thing that creates plastic automatons? I think it was said that they lost their food supply in " a war" when their protein planets were destroyed. That could indeed be the "Time War".
And the Master was working with them in his first appearance.
drwho
06-26-2007, 11:49 AM
Maybe these things are actual timelord kids that were actually put into war machines to battle the daleks, but something happened to the master before they could be released during the time war. God hope not something like that would make the time lords seem awful.
Tobias March
06-26-2007, 11:59 AM
Maybe these things are actual timelord kids that were actually put into war machines to battle the daleks, but something happened to the master before they could be released during the time war. God hope not something like that would make the time lords seem awful.
I imagine whatever it is, it will have a bearing on the behavior of the Timelords during the War. I almost believe the Master is sparing the Doctor some pain out of pity, but at the same time he may simply enjoy knowing something his rival does not. Whatever the eventual revelation I imagine it will change the Doctor's perspective on what happened with the War. He probably won't be as obsessed with the idea of being alone so much.
Grrr....can't read any of this! I don't wanna be spoiled!
One question: did that guy with the computer chip in his head that opened up and looked like a third eye in the middle of his forehead ever return?
That guy was from the near future, though, so I don't think we've caught up with him yet.
mattx110
06-26-2007, 01:17 PM
c'mon. nobody cares about poor former PM harriet jones?
killed by little orbs and probably saved the world/universe with the archangel info.
and it's funny the people that aren't affected by the hypnodrums. the president of the US, the former Prime Minister, martha's dad was really put into a new light after all we've seen so far was him and his 20something girlfriend.
and GODDDDDD, evil wives are so fricken cool. Moen did a great job being facetiously sincere.
king mob
06-26-2007, 02:02 PM
Thankfully my video managed to cope with taping Saturday's episode while I was at Glastonbury and bloody hell; was that a cracker or what. Yes, it was a bit fanwanky but (although I don't think it was planned from the start) I loved how Davies pulled everything together from the last three series and even the shitefest of 'Torchwood'.
Simm is clearly having fun playing a charming baddie for a change, and although he did cross in hammy parody, he is simply perfect for Tennant's Doctor. So will Martha die? If you read the Myspace blogs you'd think she does. I hope she doesn't, she's a fantastic companion.
This week's Radio Times is doing another double cover
http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/images/rt_313a.jpg
http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/images/rt_313b.jpg
Spike-X
06-26-2007, 02:34 PM
I imagine whatever it is, it will have a bearing on the behavior of the Timelords during the War. I almost believe the Master is sparing the Doctor some pain out of pity, but at the same time he may simply enjoy knowing something his rival does not. Whatever the eventual revelation I imagine it will change the Doctor's perspective on what happened with the War. He probably won't be as obsessed with the idea of being alone so much.
Given how mindful the producers are that the show's audience is largely young kids, I don't think they'd go in that direction.
c'mon. nobody cares about poor former PM harriet jones?
killed by little orbs and probably saved the world/universe with the archangel info.
...how could I not have realised that was her?
I AM SO STUPID!!!
It must be because she didn't compulsively introduce herself. Threw me right off track.
Donald M.
06-26-2007, 03:48 PM
...how could I not have realised that was her?
Because, if he's talking about who I think he's talking about, it wasn't.
Haydn C
06-26-2007, 03:49 PM
c'mon. nobody cares about poor former PM harriet jones?
killed by little orbs and probably saved the world/universe with the archangel info.
and it's funny the people that aren't affected by the hypnodrums. the president of the US, the former Prime Minister, martha's dad was really put into a new light after all we've seen so far was him and his 20something girlfriend.
and GODDDDDD, evil wives are so fricken cool. Moen did a great job being facetiously sincere.
Harriet Jones? What do you mean? She wasn't in The Sound Of Drums. Was she?
Do you mean the news reporter, she was called Vivian Rook or something. That wasn't Jones.
mattx110
06-26-2007, 04:38 PM
Harriet Jones? What do you mean? She wasn't in The Sound Of Drums. Was she?
Do you mean the news reporter, she was called Vivian Rook or something. That wasn't Jones.
given how she acted and the way she held up her card while introducing herself and went "you know me". and the way she mentioned the "Downfall of harriet jones" and the hair color. it seems like they meant it to be Jones in disguise working to uncover who saxon is and how he took over so fast.
and vivian rook sounds like a fake name.
Donald M.
06-26-2007, 05:15 PM
given how she acted and the way she held up her card while introducing herself and went "you know me". and the way she mentioned the "Downfall of harriet jones" and the hair color. it seems like they meant it to be Jones in disguise working to uncover who saxon is and how he took over so fast.
and vivian rook sounds like a fake name.
It's not the same actress.
I really do not think that was Harriet Jones and I do not know why anyone would think it was.
mattx110
06-26-2007, 06:55 PM
It's not the same actress.
that doesn't change the fact that she looks similar and acted identical and referenced a running gag from the christmas invasion episode.
that doesn't change the fact that she looks similar and acted identical and referenced a running gag from the christmas invasion episode.
Nope, I'd have to say no, especially with a change of actresses.
I mean, the powers that be even kept the same actress to reprise a throwaway Series 1 role and made her into a main character in Torchwood. I'd have to say there's a huge amount of consistency in terms of casting. If Harriet Jones wasn't available and they wanted to keep the character, they would've outright said so.
mattx110
06-26-2007, 09:53 PM
Nope, I'd have to say no, especially with a change of actresses.
I mean, the powers that be even kept the same actress to reprise a throwaway Series 1 role and made her into a main character in Torchwood. I'd have to say there's a huge amount of consistency in terms of casting. If Harriet Jones wasn't available and they wanted to keep the character, they would've outright said so.
well, sorry about misleading the public. it's also from scripts by Russel Davies, so maybe that's just how he writes reporters. but it really seemed like he was reaaaaally driving home the harriet jones references. i'll ask Davies next time i see him.
anyway, they moved tosh from a medical doctor to a mathematician, engineering, computer specialist type person. i think they just really liked the actress, and well, she works for a superhightech organization so she could have possibly done medical school and her sciences on the side.
well, sorry about misleading the public. it's also from scripts by Russel Davies, so maybe that's just how he writes reporters. but it really seemed like he was reaaaaally driving home the harriet jones references. i'll ask Davies next time i see him.
Well, Vivian Rook even outright references Harriet Jones by name. If it was Harriet Jones-in-disguise, it would seem very VERY odd to talk about your alter-ego while working undercover. That basically screams, 'I'm her!'
anyway, they moved tosh from a medical doctor to a mathematician, engineering, computer specialist type person. i think they just really liked the actress, and well, she works for a superhightech organization so she could have possibly done medical school and her sciences on the side.
According to Torchwood, Toshiko was also part of the organization straight out of college as well, which could very well mean that she was undercover herself as a medical doctor during 'Aliens of London.' And she did perform some medical duties in one Torchwood episode as well.
king mob
06-27-2007, 06:27 AM
The Rook character was an amalgam of various tabloid journalists that would be familiar to British viewers, so I can see there might be a bit of confusion but it clearly wasn't meant to be Harriet Jones.
mattx110
06-27-2007, 12:05 PM
The Rook character was an amalgam of various tabloid journalists that would be familiar to British viewers, so I can see there might be a bit of confusion but it clearly wasn't meant to be Harriet Jones.
"hi i'm vivian rook, you know me (referencing running gag from christmas invasion where she introduced herself compulsively to multiple people who said "i know who you are")." and holds up her ID card.
and then
"ever since the downfall of harriet jones" with lowering voice as she seems to be thinking to herself, pause for effect while lucy saxon stares at her.
it has nothing to do with knowing about tabloid journalists, and the fact that she had an extremely similar character. even the "i have reason to believe your in great danger all of us..." line feels like something jones would say.
saxon could of used the same signal that made people not see him for who he is, to have people ignore potential PM contenders.
anyway, if they didn't mean for it to be a reprised role, and just got another actress because they thought she was right for the part, then ok. but it feels like RTD put jones in and maybe decided against it and switched actresses, but it really feels like jones. it can be just a similar character, but with the multiple references to episodes this season and the previous 2...
anyway, there's nothing more to say on the subject without asking the scriptwriter.
edit: just wanted to say, you're all probably right, but i see too many connections for it to be coincidental.
anyway, would the master getting aged by his screwdriver and escape with the time-agent bracelet thing be too similar to the deadly assassin master? cause a jack that can time travel and teleport that efficiently might be detrimental to torchwood the series. and the doctor doesn't want to kill the master, but wants to stop him, so making the master 250 years old and saying "you regenerate, you're one regeneration closer to death, and there are no timelords to bring you back this time" might work on him.
Popgun
06-27-2007, 01:10 PM
Matt - I really think you're barking up the wrong tree on the Harriet Jones front. I also wouldn't worry too much about the accuracy of Jack's Vortex Manipulator affecting Torchwood - The Doctor claiming "That wasn't luck. That was me" suggested to me that he, personally, had guided them through time.
Now, The Toclafane, with thier childlike voices and their apparent origins as 'bogeymen', fairy stories for Gallifreyan children: Could they be The Master's childhood imaginary friends, made real by the 'Paradox Machine'?
The episode did, after all, put particular emphasis on The Master's early years and his pre-pubescent fall into insanity...
It's a thought.
king mob
06-27-2007, 02:15 PM
Matt, it really was everything to do with RTD referencing tabloid journos, even the name references the late Jean Rook. Plus RTD isn't likely to completely write out using Harriet Jones character or Penelope Wilton just yet.
Have you been infected by something at Outpost Gallifrey? It's scary over there right now.
mattx110
06-28-2007, 09:38 PM
Have you been infected by something at Outpost Gallifrey? It's scary over there right now.
i don't go there. it's a bit too scary.
and the "that wasn't luck, it was me" was cause he fixed it with his sonic screwdriver and knowledge of time technology. i think the implication was that the thing would work without the doctor being around until jack gets it broken again. jack said something like "it can work as a teleport since you fixed it".
although martha got an instant teleport, but the group together lost a few hours in teleporting, making it as effective or less so than a plane for long distances, and the time travel aspect is not as exact as a TARDIS. it could be a "get out of jail free" card rather than a tool they can overuse.
eh, too much thinking for something that might be taken care of with one line of dialogue.
and jeeze there are a lot of those killer kid orbs. even a victory leaves a world devestated unless the paradox machine does what it sounds like and the doctor decides it's safe enough to use. there haven't been that many episode endings where that many people are that screwed.
when was the last time the TARDIS was dismantled, millions of people were being murdered by an invasion force the size of the population of earth, the president of the US was murdered, the PM was the murderer, the doctor was almost immoble, and the companions were captured or on the run?
and the effects of the sky opening with billions of roboty things and the red storm stuff with the helicarrier and the explosions was a great use of their CGI money. this is the first time where it's painful to have to wait for the last episode, while i don't want it to end at the same time. torchwood better be awesome the next season.
and the harriet jones-vivian rook thing was probably just seeing RTD's personality come through in similar characters. they're both women who were there to seek the truth and uncover alien plots who had no trouble with public tactfulness and appealing to people's sensibilities. too bad lucy saxon was fricken insane/brainwashed/mentally disturbed with an imprinted loyalty. but that dance just makes me not care about her accomplicing genocide...that may be the cutest/funniest thing i've seen an evil person do.
Enigmanaut
06-29-2007, 12:37 AM
It's not that scary at OG. I post there all the time. Of course, I do bathe in the blood of children and bay at the moon, but really that's true of any online community. ;)
ragnarok_2012
06-29-2007, 01:17 AM
It's not that scary at OG. I post there all the time. Of course, I do bathe in the blood of children and bay at the moon, but really that's true of any online community. ;)
I really dig your username.
king mob
06-29-2007, 07:07 AM
and jeeze there are a lot of those killer kid orbs. even a victory leaves a world devestated unless the paradox machine does what it sounds like and the doctor decides it's safe enough to use. there haven't been that many episode endings where that many people are that screwed.
when was the last time the TARDIS was dismantled, millions of people were being murdered by an invasion force the size of the population of earth, the president of the US was murdered, the PM was the murderer, the doctor was almost immoble, and the companions were captured or on the run?
It leaves the programme with several possibilities-either the Doctor defeats the Master and leaves Earth to pick up the pieces, or they do a reboot (paradox machine?) to before the Master started his genocide.
I've avoided the reports coming from the finale screening the other night so that whatever they do comes as a surprise. They'd better not kill Martha off though.
torchwood better be awesome the next season.
It can't be worse than the first series.
mattx110
06-29-2007, 10:00 AM
It leaves the programme with several possibilities-either the Doctor defeats the Master and leaves Earth to pick up the pieces, or they do a reboot (paradox machine?) to before the Master started his genocide.
I've avoided the reports coming from the finale screening the other night so that whatever they do comes as a surprise. They'd better not kill Martha off though.
It can't be worse than the first series.
next season i might forget all about the internet so i can get some more legitimate surprises in.
Enigmanaut
06-29-2007, 10:08 AM
I really dig your username.
Thanks. It's from a story I'm writing. The main character can be seen in my avatar.
tricksterpup
06-29-2007, 04:35 PM
It can't be worse than the first series.
I was greatly disappointed with that season, never really went into who Jack really was. I thought we would find out about the Time Agents and why they wiped Jack's mind. Why did he take Jack's name? Is he hiding from someone? Or are these questions they are saving for Doctor Who? I liked the idea of why Jack couldn't die, we all suspected it but I wish there would have been more talk on TW.
All in all the premise of the show wasn't bad. I just felt the writing was a bit lacking. I have only watched 11 of the 13 episodes and i am hoping to get caught up this weekend.
tricksterpup
06-29-2007, 04:38 PM
It leaves the programme with several possibilities-either the Doctor defeats the Master and leaves Earth to pick up the pieces, or they do a reboot (paradox machine?) to before the Master started his genocide.
I've avoided the reports coming from the finale screening the other night so that whatever they do comes as a surprise. They'd better not kill Martha off though.
I haven't heard anything about it so I think I can spout my speculations here.
Do you think he created the Paradox Machine to bring back the Time Lords? Just think about it, it was the Doctor who kills them but it took the Master to bring them Back. Now that is an interesting idea, just ponder that for the next 24 or what ever hours for the season finale.
tricksterpup
06-29-2007, 04:40 PM
next season i might forget all about the internet so i can get some more legitimate surprises in.
Oh, I haven't read one word about anything on these shows. I just avoid most of the talk. I try to keep an eye out for when and if the Sarah Jane Adventures comes on and the next season of Torchwood.
Captain Jim
06-29-2007, 07:55 PM
A reminder to US folks that the third season premieres on SciFi a week from tonight: Friday, July 6.
8 PM - Runaway Bride (repeats at 11:30 PM)
9:30 PM - Smith & Jones (repeats at 1 AM)
promo video (http://video.scifi.com/player/?id=122215)
Spike-X
06-29-2007, 09:51 PM
I haven't heard anything about it so I think I can spout my speculations here.
Do you think he created the Paradox Machine to bring back the Time Lords? Just think about it, it was the Doctor who kills them but it took the Master to bring them Back. Now that is an interesting idea, just ponder that for the next 24 or what ever hours for the season finale.
That would be a hell of a paradox, alright.
Whatever happens, I'm expecting huge things from this weekend's episode.
Sean Whitmore
06-29-2007, 10:03 PM
Do you think he created the Paradox Machine to bring back the Time Lords? Just think about it, it was the Doctor who kills them but it took the Master to bring them Back. Now that is an interesting idea, just ponder that for the next 24 or what ever hours for the season finale.
Would the Master want the Time Lords back?
I'm not very familiar with his character, so I honestly don't know if he has any particular love for his people or culture. I'd figure bringing them back would just be creating obstacles for himself.
SEAN
tricksterpup
06-29-2007, 10:09 PM
Would the Master want the Time Lords back?
I'm not very familiar with his character, so I honestly don't know if he has any particular love for his people or culture. I'd figure bringing them back would just be creating obstacles for himself.
SEAN
Yes but just imagine having an entire race indebted to you.. He would revel in it. He is an evil man but has stood up for his people in the past, as long as he can gain from it and I am sure he would gain from this.
But not just doing that, but out doing the Doctor would be one hell of a feather in his hat.
Sean Whitmore
06-29-2007, 10:15 PM
Yes but just imagine having an entire race indebted to you.. He would revel in it. He is an evil man but has stood up for his people in the past, as long as he can gain from it and I am sure he would gain from this.
But not just doing that, but out doing the Doctor would be one hell of a feather in his hat.
I could see wanting to get one up on the Doctor (it's a bit much, but hey, he's a megalomaniac), but I tend to think the Time Lords wouldn't feel indebted to him. From what I've seen, they can be pretty ungrateful.
SEAN
tricksterpup
06-29-2007, 10:22 PM
I could see wanting to get one up on the Doctor (it's a bit much, but hey, he's a megalomaniac), but I tend to think the Time Lords wouldn't feel indebted to him. From what I've seen, they can be pretty ungrateful.
SEAN
Well come on, he did make a paradox machine.. how sane do you think he is???
mattx110
06-29-2007, 11:18 PM
I could see wanting to get one up on the Doctor (it's a bit much, but hey, he's a megalomaniac), but I tend to think the Time Lords wouldn't feel indebted to him. From what I've seen, they can be pretty ungrateful.
SEAN
if he thinks it can get him more power and more regenerations to live longer and get more power, i think he'd bring back ghandi.
Paul McEnery
06-30-2007, 12:35 AM
given how she acted and the way she held up her card while introducing herself and went "you know me". and the way she mentioned the "Downfall of harriet jones" and the hair color. it seems like they meant it to be Jones in disguise working to uncover who saxon is and how he took over so fast.
and vivian rook sounds like a fake name.
Because Jean Rook, which was the name of an actual columnist who looked just like that, is waaaay too implausible.
king mob
06-30-2007, 07:38 AM
The latest rumours (if you believe The Mirror) is that Tennant & Davies will be off after the fourth series plus Martha is to be demoted to Torchwood.
drwho
06-30-2007, 07:43 AM
The latest rumours (if you believe The Mirror) is that Tennant & Davies will be off after the fourth series plus Martha is to be demoted to Torchwood.
God they really do have a problem keeping these doctors. I'd like to see giles come back.
king mob
06-30-2007, 09:26 AM
Tennant has said five years in he role is his upper limit, and most past actors have stayed in the role an average of 3/4 years so it's to be expected in a programme that used to constantly change every year or so. It was only when JNT took over that it somewhat stayed still in terms of progression.
Anyhow, tonight's episode is 10 minutes longer than usual and starts at 5 past 7. Not that I'm insanely looking forward to it or anything, oh no...
Karl H
06-30-2007, 09:56 AM
Anyhow, tonight's episode is 10 minutes longer than usual and starts at 5 past 7. Not that I'm insanely looking forward to it or anything, oh no...
I'm actually twitching with excitement. I can't even think about going out on the sauce tonight as I'm waiting for Doctor Who.
Haydn C
06-30-2007, 10:13 AM
I'm actually twitching with excitement. I can't even think about going out on the sauce tonight as I'm waiting for Doctor Who.
Time is passing much to slowly in this house I tell you. Come on 7pm hurry up. Surely the sauce question is how much should you drink waiting for the Doctor? Just enough to be slightly giddy but not so much as to miss anything I reckon.
Time is passing much to slowly in this house I tell you. Come on 7pm hurry up.
I'm like a kid on Christmas Eve, I just can't wait until this evening.
adamthered
06-30-2007, 10:37 AM
I haven't watch the previous two yet. Waiting to DL this one so I can make a DVD with all three and watch them on the big screen. So I won't see these until sometime tomorrow.
Luckily, I've managed to stay away from all spoilers.
Karl H
06-30-2007, 10:49 AM
Time is passing much to slowly in this house I tell you. Come on 7pm hurry up. Surely the sauce question is how much should you drink waiting for the Doctor? Just enough to be slightly giddy but not so much as to miss anything I reckon.
Hmm. Hadn't thought of it that way... I'll probably drink during it!
2-3 cans should lead to a decent degree of vitriol by the end!
Tobias March
06-30-2007, 11:10 AM
I have to head out for 7. Grrrr. Hoping it's uploaded soon enough.
Karl H
06-30-2007, 11:18 AM
Be fashionably late. If they're truly your friends, they'll understand
king mob
06-30-2007, 01:21 PM
That was a glorious bit of Who, even if you count some of the dodgy aspects (such as the paradox machine which were expected, the dodgy aged Doctor) to rejig Earth so it's not this smoking ruin. Lots of lovely bits from the opening shot detailing how Earth was under quarantine to the 'Flash Gordon' moment with the Master's ring being picked out the ashes of his funeral pyre.
The episode was Ageyman's though; she carried it well and she's going to be seriously missed from the programme. In retrospect though this entire series has been about Martha's journey but still, humph!
There were loads of highlights; the mention of Sea Devils and Axons; the Master being a total bastard & loving it; the reveal of what Martha was doing in the year between episodes; the identity of the Face Of Boe and of course the bizarre cliffhanger for the Christmas episode.
So it was a satisfying ending to what was (with a few exceptions) the best series so far with several story arcs being neatly tied up. The only thing is:how do they try to top this next year?
king mob
06-30-2007, 04:02 PM
Ahh, according to Confidential Martha will be back but not as a regular character & the phone she gives the Doctor seems to be a plot point for next year.
So that leaves it open for a guest companion for Christmas & the rumours about Kylie Minogue are not going away.
drwho
06-30-2007, 04:08 PM
If that is the case I kind of feel like they wasted martha as a companion. Through the episodes all she did was go googoo over the doctor and I dont see her bringing anything to the who mythos. I really feel like she should have been given more time to develop as a character unless she just doesnt want to be martha any more.
tricksterpup
06-30-2007, 04:11 PM
Ok, Today is a big day, finale of season 3 and the full airing of Infinite Quest.
What did everyone think of the Infinite Quest?
I actually had fun watching it. It was a nice teaser cartoon and I enjoyed the voice overs, especially that of Anthony Head.
Donald M.
06-30-2007, 11:23 PM
to the 'Flash Gordon' moment with the Master's ring being picked out the ashes of his funeral pyre.
Speaking of which, who do you think that was, picking up the ring?
My guess is the Master somehow transferred his consciousness into his companion.
That or, perhaps, she's carrying the Master's child.
It was a pretty good end to the season, although I have to admit that in my opinion it wasn’t anywhere as good as last years, let alone season ones.
Don’t get me wrong it was a really well done Doctor Who episode, but somehow it just didn’t click 100% for me.
Still Martha was great, and I’m really going to miss having her around.
I loved the ending though, especially as it was so intentionally meant to mirror last years ending.
Now, I have to start waiting for Christmas.
Spike-X
07-01-2007, 02:04 AM
It was a pretty good end to the season, although I have to admit that in my opinion it wasn’t anywhere as good as last years, let alone season ones.
Don’t get me wrong it was a really well done Doctor Who episode, but somehow it just didn’t click 100% for me.
Yeah, it went a bit off the rails there. The stuff with the Doctor-critter in the cage was a bit WTF? And the stuff with him tapping into the telepathic energies of the world and levitating and stuff was way too Deus Ex Machina for my liking.
Not sure about the farewell with Captain Jack, though. The Face of Boe? Hmm...
Still Martha was great, and I’m really going to miss having her around.
Yeah. I wasn't really surprised about her leaving - there had been absolutely nothing in the press saying that she'd be staying on, like what happened with Billie Piper at the end of Season 1.
I loved the ending though, especially as it was so intentionally meant to mirror last years ending.
What?
What?!
WHAT?!?!
If that is the case I kind of feel like they wasted martha as a companion. Through the episodes all she did was go googoo over the doctor and I dont see her bringing anything to the who mythos. I really feel like she should have been given more time to develop as a character unless she just doesnt want to be martha any more.
Wait wait wait.
Martha singlehandedly travels the globe, inspires the population of Earth, channels the collective psychic energy of the human race, and tricks the Master in his own domain (!), and you don't think she brings anything to the mythos?!
Good God almighty. Are we even watching the same show? In one episode, she pretty much personified the term 'Prep-Time.'
Hell, even if you forget about all those feats, her little speech to the Doctor when she gives him her phone pretty much shows that she's operating on a much more mature level. Old Martha wouldn't have had the guts to just up and leave the Doctor like that.
Cthulhudrew
07-01-2007, 02:44 AM
it seems like they meant it to be Jones in disguise working to uncover who saxon is and how he took over so fast.
Like you, I did a double take when I first saw the scene because the similarities and dialogue threw me off. It didn't click that a former Prime Minister could possibly be undercover though (it would be like Tony Blair passing himself off as a reporter at Parliament), so I checked imdb and sure enough, it was a different actress.
They were written alike, though, so I guess it's just a quirk that they like to play up on the show.
Sean Whitmore
07-01-2007, 03:21 AM
What?
What?!
WHAT?!?!
The final, completely flat "what" absolutely killed me. Just a bit of annoyance mixed in with his confusion.
SEAN
Sean Whitmore
07-01-2007, 03:59 AM
Taking a not-terribly-thought-out stab at the overall theme of the season...could it be how humanity is corrupted (or otherwise influenced) by all these aliens who keep arriving?
The Plasmavore, the Daleks, the sun beings from 42, the Family, and even the Doctor and the Master all took on human form for various reasons. Not that that's unique for the series, but we're talking more episodes out of this season than not. And then the season ends with humans transforming themselves into "aliens".
And even though the "untainted" humans of the present were able to beat the evil ones from the future, the potential for that transformation is still there. Because the Doctor was able to talk Mrs. Jones out of murder, but not the Master's companion.
Or maybe not. I don't know from themes. Good season, though.
SEAN
king mob
07-01-2007, 04:55 AM
Speaking of which, who do you think that was, picking up the ring?
My guess is the Master somehow transferred his consciousness into his companion.
That or, perhaps, she's carrying the Master's child.
I'd like the idea Lucy Saxon is carrying the Master's child but that might be a wee bit too freaky for the kids watching the programme, so I'd go for it was her picking the ring up after the Master transferred his consciousness into her.
king mob
07-01-2007, 05:08 AM
Yeah, it went a bit off the rails there. The stuff with the Doctor-critter in the cage was a bit WTF? And the stuff with him tapping into the telepathic energies of the world and levitating and stuff was way too Deus Ex Machina for my liking.
The Golum Doctor was rubbish, but I didn't mind the deus ex machina ending, it was the only way to get the programme back to 'normal' (if you can accept a programme about a 900 year old alien travelling in time as normal) within the restrictions of time and budget.
However I think it's time Davies stopped using the deus ex machina endings in his Who stories, it's getting a bit samey.
Not sure about the farewell with Captain Jack, though. The Face of Boe? Hmm...
I loved that mainly because it's never made clear and nor should it be. It should remain a WTF moment.
Yeah. I wasn't really surprised about her leaving - there had been absolutely nothing in the press saying that she'd be staying on, like what happened with Billie Piper at the end of Season 1.
It seems The Mirror was spot on about Martha being a guest part in the 4th series, hopefully she won't be wasted if she does turn up in Torchwood.
drwho
07-01-2007, 05:21 AM
So any news about a new companion, or is martha gonna be calling the doctor to earth every episode to deal with things. I wouldnt mind seeing a more down to earth doctor like the pertwee years, or maybe get an alien for a companion instead of another human. I thought it was bizarre how psychic energy allows one to turn themselves young, but what can you do.
Karl H
07-01-2007, 06:19 AM
I actually thought it was the strongest series ending so far. I've just sat down with the old Sky box and watched Utopia, the Sound of Drums and Last of the Time Lords back to back. Works really well and I thought the ending although a little bit deus-ex (heck, this series has never been much beyond 'hack' science anyway) summed up the essence of the Doctor perfectly as an inspiration to ordinary people and as a parallel to how the Time Lords are quasi-useless without mankind's belief in them.
Loved the Face of Boe reference.
Loved Martha in it. She's really done a job this season IMO.
It actually felt like a Doctor Who: The End episode to me almost. For a moment I was hoping it might lead to a new Status Quo but clearly it hasn't.
The fourth series has got one heck of a way to go to beat this series...
king mob
07-01-2007, 06:32 AM
It actually felt like a Doctor Who: The End episode to me almost. For a moment I was hoping it might lead to a new Status Quo but clearly it hasn't.
It did feel like RTD was signing off and wrapping everything up for a new team but it wasn't. He has made clear he has one more major baddie to bring back on the fourth series, so that could well be the last for him, after all by then he'll have slowly reintroduced all the major aspects of the old series so the next lot after him will have a fresh slate to play with.
ScottySummers
07-01-2007, 06:33 AM
I didn't watch the whole season, saw a few at the start, the two parter (Jessica Stevenson/Hynes - Doctor Woo!), the Sally Sparrow episode and the last two but I absolutely love Martha Jones AND Freema Agyeman. I hope if she is relegated to a guest star next year, she is in a substantial amount of episodes and that she has her name in the opening credits when she appears a la Captain Jack (The Face of Boe? How brilliantly wtflolz random!)
I'd be happy to see Martha having adventures of her own, independent of the Doctor but within the confines of the same show. She's obviously more than capable.
And Martha in Torchwood? YES PLEASE! Martha and Gwen scenes would be televisual heaven for me.
Kylie potentially being on the Titanic is just weird but I'd be interested to see how that's pulled off. And for a completely fanfiction-y and pretty daft idea which would be scaryhilarious if it actually happened - what if Captain Jack is already on the Titanic in one of his many adventures through time and Kylie is playing a character called Rose who happens to be an ascendent of Rose Tyler. So the Doctor has to save this Rose to make sure his Rose happens. And I'll shut up now!
Except to say that if we haaaave to have a new companion, make it Sally Sparrow.
ChrisIII
07-01-2007, 06:43 AM
The fourth major baddie is probably going to be the Sea Devils/Silurians or the Sontarans.
SPAfreak
07-01-2007, 07:09 AM
The Golum Doctor was rubbish, but I didn't mind the deus ex machina ending, it was the only way to get the programme back to 'normal' (if you can accept a programme about a 900 year old alien travelling in time as normal) within the restrictions of time and budget.
However I think it's time Davies stopped using the deus ex machina endings in his Who stories, it's getting a bit samey.
I liked the look of the Dobby Doctor. It was both revolting and vulnerable at the same time. I didn't care for the "Clap if you believe in fairies" solution at all. That was utterly ridiculous. It just felt insultingly simplistic. I had figured that the Doctor had done something to the Laser Screwdriver when he had it.
On another note, that was definitely Lucy Saxon picking up the ring. They made a point of showing her hand and her red fingernails when the gun was removed from her. It was the same hand and shade of polish picking up the ring.
king mob
07-01-2007, 07:47 AM
The fourth major baddie is probably going to be the Sea Devils/Silurians or the Sontarans.
Sontarans are more likely as Davies has hinted they'll be back eventually.
tricksterpup
07-01-2007, 10:27 AM
Sontarans are more likely as Davies has hinted they'll be back eventually.
Ah the Sontarans would rock, I always liked them.
I am agreement with the Face of Boe comment, that is a wtf moment. But I thought it was brilliant.
Now with Martha Jones off and about, yeah it would be cool to see her on Torchwood or even making a guest appearance in the Sarah Jane adventures. (that is if they are still going to do the series.)
Did anybody else get a slight kick out of seeing Jack lead some UNIT soldiers? Ahh, yes, UNIT, the Master, fanciful flying devices... yep, it's the 70s again. Woo!
Oh, and I am SO glad that the Valiant *wasn't* destroyed. The thing is too cool for that sort of thing.
Popgun
07-01-2007, 11:57 AM
Did anybody else get a slight kick out of seeing Jack lead some UNIT soldiers? Ahh, yes, UNIT, the Master, fanciful flying devices... yep, it's the 70s again. Woo!
Oh, and I am SO glad that the Valiant *wasn't* destroyed. The thing is too cool for that sort of thing.
According to RTD and Co on the Podcast, there will be an announcement regarding the future of Martha Jones on Monday.
Tobias March
07-01-2007, 12:18 PM
Total Flash Gordon ending there. Great reference (I could almost hear Max Von Sydow laughing to fade out:D ).
Y'know I have to rewatch the Face of Boe episodes now to imagine that colossal callus as a smirking Captain Jack. I love the idea that this immortal sage reverred by all those aliens seen in the second episode of RTD's Doctor....took his name from his time as a poster boy.
The Fury
07-01-2007, 12:35 PM
I didn't much like this ending to the series. Well, it was still good just not as good as i hoped.
The Captain Jack being face of Boe I did not like, unneeded and silly. Espcially as he died, yet apparently Jack can't die. Oh and I wanted Jack to go along with the Doctor, it would have been cool. Torchwood was not the greatest of series.
drwho
07-01-2007, 12:36 PM
Total Flash Gordon ending there. Great reference (I could almost hear Max Von Sydow laughing to fade out:D ).
Y'know I have to rewatch the Face of Boe episodes now to imagine that colossal callus as a smirking Captain Jack. I love the idea that this immortal sage reverred by all those aliens seen in the second episode of RTD's Doctor....took his name from his time as a poster boy.
I have to admit it is nice seeing some of these plotlines wrapped up. Still not quite sure even in who science how a human turns into a giant head, but super aged timelords turn into golem so who knows. It is funny though the whole face of boe being all wise and knowing. So wonder how many guys jack smooches this season since he has to get caught up. We all know what type of responsibilities he has lol.
mattx110
07-01-2007, 01:15 PM
Taking a not-terribly-thought-out stab at the overall theme of the season...could it be how humanity is corrupted (or otherwise influenced) by all these aliens who keep arriving?
The Plasmavore, the Daleks, the sun beings from 42, the Family, and even the Doctor and the Master all took on human form for various reasons. Not that that's unique for the series, but we're talking more episodes out of this season than not. And then the season ends with humans transforming themselves into "aliens".
And even though the "untainted" humans of the present were able to beat the evil ones from the future, the potential for that transformation is still there. Because the Doctor was able to talk Mrs. Jones out of murder, but not the Master's companion.
Or maybe not. I don't know from themes. Good season, though.
SEAN
i'm thinking, humans extending their lifespan un-naturally cause corruption and loss of control? although human nature only fits halfway cause it's about aliens who want to live forever. so it's about all those creatures and aliens and humans, but in the end the original humans turn out to be the most powerful, even though they die.
cause they have hope and faith and all this magical stuff that doesn't even have to be real to be used as strength...
then there's the running theme of the doctor driving towards suicide where every episode he puts himself in a situation where he would sacrifice himself for the greater good, but in the finale after martha tells them about him, everyone goes "wtf, we need you. you have to live and gain temporary psychic powers".
and it sucks that the orb-people stopped existing less than 2 minutes after they assassinated the president... so close to it all being a good day. but i guess it's not really a paradox until they kill a direct ancestor, and the machine is gone.
and in parallel to the doctor being almost ready to love and having rose taken away, he's ready to face up to reality and have actual ties and responsibilities, the master kills himself and martha stays home. life must really suck to be him.
and jeeze, lucy saxon went from nut who seemed to be aroused by pretty much anything the master did or said, to a nihilist battered wife. poor girl.
According to RTD and Co on the Podcast, there will be an announcement regarding the future of Martha Jones on Monday.
Um... and I said nothing about Martha...?
tricksterpup
07-01-2007, 03:47 PM
I have to admit it is nice seeing some of these plotlines wrapped up. Still not quite sure even in who science how a human turns into a giant head, but super aged timelords turn into golem so who knows. It is funny though the whole face of boe being all wise and knowing. So wonder how many guys jack smooches this season since he has to get caught up. We all know what type of responsibilities he has lol.
Well thats what I like about that scene.. it was a moment where you are not sure about it. Jack could be the face of boe or he could not. But if you think about it. Didn't he (face of boe) call the doctor old friend?
Nosgoth Phantom
07-01-2007, 04:29 PM
Well thats what I like about that scene.. it was a moment where you are not sure about it. Jack could be the face of boe or he could not. But if you think about it. Didn't he (face of boe) call the doctor old friend?
Russell T. Davies confirmed in the podcast that goes with the episode that Jack is indeed the Face of Boe.
The Fury
07-01-2007, 04:44 PM
Here's a question then, if Jack can never die, how did Boe 'die'?
Tobias March
07-01-2007, 04:58 PM
Here's a question then, if Jack can never die, how did Boe 'die'?
We don't really know whether he can never die. He can't be killed that's true. Also he appears to have survived for millennia by the time we meet him. He simply became tired as the energy from the Tardis could not sustain him for an eternity.
He hangs in there long enough though :-) Plus it's interesting that he resembles what we see of the 'childlike', humans from Utopia. Cept he's much, much bigger of course.
Nosgoth Phantom
07-01-2007, 05:56 PM
Here's a question then, if Jack can never die, how did Boe 'die'?
Don't forget the Face of Boe wired himself to the system in "Gridlock" to keep the lower levels of the city functioning. He also self sacrificed his life-force to power the equipment to fix everything and free the people trapped there.
Enigmanaut
07-01-2007, 10:25 PM
I think the Jack as Boe thing makes perfect sense.
Jack keeps changing over the thousands of years between now and the Fourth Great and bountiful empire. It's so gradual that for the brief time we've known him, he doesn't look any different. Eventually, as he becomes less human-looking, he migrates out into the universe and out to the Isop galaxy, where he buds off children that become the Boekind: a race that all springs from Jack like his own Adam with no Eve.
He lasts and lasts for the billions of years, outliving all his children, and all their progeny... but he feels the weight of the years beginning to drain that familiar energy out of him. He knows from hearing Martha all those years ago that the Doctor and Martha were present for the final words of "The Face of Boe." So, he seeded his own legend throughout the centuries for the day he finally shuffles off the mortal coil. The legend that "before he dies, the Face of Boe will pass on his final secret to a traveller." So, when he feels that weariness come, he summons the Doctor... but he comes too soon. He sees Rose with the Doctor and knows it's not yet time. He knows he has to wait for Martha.
When the Doctor shows in Gridlock, he knows Martha is with him. The Doctor had practically shouted her name over every frequency at that point. He heard him say "that's Martha's car." He knew it was finally his time to rest. And so he used the last of that ol' Vortex energy to help the Doctor with a sigh of "Doctor, I give you my last."
He tells the Doctor the secret he's waited so long to tell him, and finally sleeps.
Marvelous.
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