Doctor Who *spoilers*

[Charles RB]

With the Daleks this does have to be solved right away because they are in a much worse position than the Borg. They were beaten 4 o 5 times in just 4 seasons, and only 2 times (or 3 depending on how you see it) they were able to do anything to the Doctor or to one of his companions, so they just aren't that much of a believable threat right now (to the audience at the very least)

Well, if we look at it:

* Dalek - one Dalek slaughters a whole base, it was to be corrupted genetically for Rose to live. Threat.

* The Parting of the Ways - Daleks have been manipulating Earth for a century, they blitz whole continents, they wipe out all resistance including Jack, the Doctor regenerates. Threat.

* Doomsday - it's piss but they're wiping out the Cybermen easy and have a vast army, so that's a threat. (The Cybermen cease being one though!)

* The Stolen Earth - the Daleks beat the shit out of Earth and everyone shits themselves at the very mention of them. Threat.

The two problems come from -

* Daleks of Manhatten/Evolution, where the Daleks are vulnerable, weak, on their own. They have a big plan which doesn't come off, and the Human Dalek is a wishy-washy wimp. Add in bad writing and they look like prats.

* Journey's End. The Daleks are beaten by typing, and then pushed around easily. Right after The Stolen Earth too.

Journey's End is the reputation killer for them. That's the problem. When they come back they need to be like the Hartnell years, where every clash with the Daleks had consequences: Susan leaves, Ian and Barb leave, Katarina and Sara die while Stephen is left distraught and at odds with the Doctor.

[Ontir]

"defeated by typing" is an over-simplification. Donna hacked them! That's more than just typing. The thing about the Daleks now, is that we know Gallifrey was lost BECAUSE of them. Even if they aren't that level of threat in every appearance, we know they can be, and that's enough.

[Cyke]

I don't remember that. I've always tried to be like Mary Poppins--practically perfect in every way.

Like I said, striving for perfection and being perfect are two completely different (and almost opposite) things. Mary Poppins herself isn't exactly perfect despite her description, depending on which version you use.

Humanity will always strive for perfection. That's why we advance. But we'll never be a perfect society, as we'll always find something that needs to be improved.

[Stressfactor]

In a lot of faith traditions perfection is reserved for godhood -- and not even the Doctor really wants to be a god.





In other news.... I've been seeing a lot of trailers for the Liam Neeson movie "Taken". You know, I forgot that Neeson can be quite badass (and pretty easy on the eyes for a 56 year-old man). I could get behind him doing a special run as the Master or maybe a new Who villain.

[Cyke]

In a lot of faith traditions perfection is reserved for godhood -- and not even the Doctor really wants to be a god.





In other news.... I've been seeing a lot of trailers for the Liam Neeson movie "Taken". You know, I forgot that Neeson can be quite badass (and pretty easy on the eyes for a 56 year-old man). I could get behind him doing a special run as the Master or maybe a new Who villain.

Liam Neeson can be great as the Master. Liam tends to play dying characters, and the Master can always regenerate :)

[Tobias March]

In other news.... I've been seeing a lot of trailers for the Liam Neeson movie "Taken". You know, I forgot that Neeson can be quite badass (and pretty easy on the eyes for a 56 year-old man). I could get behind him doing a special run as the Master or maybe a new Who villain.

Ah I'd love to hear that Co. Antrim accent in NewWho :biggrin:

[king mob]

"defeated by typing" is an over-simplification. Donna hacked them! That's more than just typing. The thing about the Daleks now, is that we know Gallifrey was lost BECAUSE of them. Even if they aren't that level of threat in every appearance, we know they can be, and that's enough.

Without dragging up the mess that was Journey's End again, the idea that the Daleks would happen to have a handy control panel where Donna could type the Daleks out of existence (because she's a temp innit) is a big pile of poo.

There's no point trying to return the Daleks to their former glories (as RTD had done) if ultimately they end up being returned to the crap baddies they ended up being in the JNT era.

[king mob]

In other news.... I've been seeing a lot of trailers for the Liam Neeson movie "Taken". You know, I forgot that Neeson can be quite badass (and pretty easy on the eyes for a 56 year-old man). I could get behind him doing a special run as the Master or maybe a new Who villain.

Taken really is a terrible film with some incredibly dubious politics. It's a waste of Neeson's talents.

[Doodle Bob]

I strongly disagree with this. For one thing Roddenberry's 'Bonanza in Space' and its utopian project didn't long survive him. The concern with the Prime Directive and interventionism soon came to resemble a version of the UN in the future - led exclusively by American veto of course.

OK... I'm not sure how this contradicts what I said before. The point is that Star Trek comes mostly from the ideas of one man. There was a vision and overall philosophy that informs the entire series. Now, if one doesn't like that vision, then one tends not to like the show (or shows).

It never made any sense to me that people would gripe at how unrealistic the Star Trek world is: It's science fiction, folks! Of course, it's unrealistic!


Whereas Doctor Who is quintessentially British. As for philosophical content, well look no further than its insistence on interventionism. .

I suppose one can eke out some sort of philosophical unity for DW this way. But, it still feels rather inconsistent to me. And it is so obvious that it changes from producer to producer and writer to writer. The complaints about the last series of DW with a sometimes pro-genocide/sometimes anti-genocide Doctor seems to bear that out.

Are you the one who pointed out a while back that Star Trek is always at its best when it reflects the current political situation? I remember reading that somewhere on these forums and finding it to be a very astute point.

[Charles RB]

to the crap baddies they ended up being in the JNT era.

I dunno about that - I haven't seen Resurrection and Revelation, but they were pretty formidable in Remembrace.

[Typo Lad]

Anyone else reading Doctor Who: The Forgotten?

I never really watched Dr. Who before the new version, but that was a really fun series and the closing scene with Susan was well done and very touching. I imagine someone who was more familiar with the character might have another opinion?

[DrDoom616]

Without dragging up the mess that was Journey's End again, the idea that the Daleks would happen to have a handy control panel where Donna could type the Daleks out of existence (because she's a temp innit) is a big pile of poo.

There's no point trying to return the Daleks to their former glories (as RTD had done) if ultimately they end up being returned to the crap baddies they ended up being in the JNT era.

The Daleks are in fact a mobile exo-suit worn by the Kaled Mutants inside, who control the Dalek from within, is it too far fetched to believe that Donna, with Time-lord and Human knowledge hacked into the internal systems of the Dalek machines and overrid there control system?
She didn't type them out of existence, she merely hacked into their 'mainframe' and took control, and as a 'office temp' with great typing ability, she was able to do this at a speed much faster than the Doctor could have.

[Dark_Master]

Well, if we look at it:

* Dalek - one Dalek slaughters a whole base, it was to be corrupted genetically for Rose to live. Threat.The Dalek may slaughter a whole base, but that doesn't really affect the Doctor in any way (other than getting him mad of course) so I wasn't counting that one. If it had at least been a UNIT base then that would have been ok, but if it's just killing some random soldiers then it doesn't have a very big effect
The Daleks are in fact a mobile exo-suit worn by the Kaled Mutants inside, who control the Dalek from within, is it too far fetched to believe that Donna, with Time-lord and Human knowledge hacked into the internal systems of the Dalek machines and overrid there control system?The fact that she could do it with the Doctor's knowledge isn't the problem.
What is far fetched is that every Dalek except for the supreme Dalek would even have a link between their suits and the ship, specially one that can be hacked that easily from a random console

[Typo Lad]

Was it random though? It was in the cell with Davros, who was building the suckers.

[Stressfactor]

Anyone else reading Doctor Who: The Forgotten?

I never really watched Dr. Who before the new version, but that was a really fun series and the closing scene with Susan was well done and very touching. I imagine someone who was more familiar with the character might have another opinion?

My formal review of the issue for Broken Frontier: http://www.brokenfrontier.com/reviews/details.php?id=2136 I was a bit more polite and substituted the term "Fan Fiction" for "Fanwank".

[Stressfactor]

Taken really is a terrible film with some incredibly dubious politics. It's a waste of Neeson's talents.Really? That's a shame. But then again, my first thought on seeing the trailer was "Damn.... I forgot Liam Neeson's a good looking guy." So, you know, not really looking for much there.

[ChrisIII]

I think the closest WHO came to TREK's utopian was probably during the Pertwee era, where TREK was starting to emerge as a cult hit in reruns. The Peladon serials and Frontier In Space have a Trekesque feel to them, in a sense. The Ice Warriors had the Klingons beat by a few years by showing former villains with a code of honor becoming good guys.




Lance Parkin (One of the best WHO novel writers) attempted to reconcile the various accounts of WHO's history in his various "history" books (Some officially licensed, some not)


Also regarding Susan, she'll apparentally also be showing up in one of the Eighth Doctor audios (Which will probably override her appearence in the "Legacy of the Daleks" novel)

[Charles RB]

I think the closest WHO came to TREK's utopian was probably during the Pertwee era, where TREK was starting to emerge as a cult hit in reruns. The Peladon serials and Frontier In Space have a Trekesque feel to them, in a sense.

Peladon was also an allegory for the UK's entry into the European Economic Community and common market. (The sequel was apparently about the miner's strike)

EDIT: And then there's The Green Death and its outright environmentalist agenda, The Mutants making apartheid refs and dealing with an exhausted empire trying to maintain power, Carnival Of Monsters throwing in stuff about politics in entertainment and appeasing the masses and television, The Silurians having racial warfare and claims to homelands and inability of two sides to work together, Day Of The Daleks drew inspiration from the Six Day War and the writer gave the future guerillas Israeli names...

People who complain about politics in fantasy fiction and comics would shit themselves if they saw the Pertwee era.

[Tik]

What is far fetched is that every Dalek except for the supreme Dalek would even have a link between their suits and the ship, specially one that can be hacked that easily from a random console
Actually, it isn't that far fetched at all if you remember the dialogue. The Supreme Dalek said that the Crucible would shelter the Daleks from the effects of the Reality Bomb. Since the Dalek ships didn't hide within the Crucible, the Crucible must have linked up to every ship/Dalek to shield them instead. Obviously this kind of ship to Dalek shielding isn't the norm however.

The console wasn't random either, it was an important Magnetron console.

[Stressfactor]

The console wasn't random either, it was an important Magnetron console.But then why keep all of your prisoners right next to the important console.

Only in movies and TV have I EVER heard of prisoners being brought to a main headquarters. In real life your prisoners are kept AWAY from everybody else and anything even reasonably important.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Anyone else reading Doctor Who: The Forgotten?

I never really watched Dr. Who before the new version, but that was a really fun series and the closing scene with Susan was well done and very touching. I imagine someone who was more familiar with the character might have another opinion?

I thought it was sweet in a way. With the Doctor admitting he should have went and saw her before the end came. It was a good fun series and on Yabs I mentioned the series last year in the "Good , the Bad and the Ugly". (Usually under The Good a lot)

[Tik]

But then why keep all of your prisoners right next to the important console.

Only in movies and TV have I EVER heard of prisoners being brought to a main headquarters. In real life your prisoners are kept AWAY from everybody else and anything even reasonably important.
Because Dalek Caan said the prisioners HAD to be there when the Daleks triumphed. As Davros said "Even the Supreme Dalek wouldn't dare to contridict the prophercies of Dalek Caan." The Daleks (Davros in particular) wanted the prophecy to be fulfilled.

It only went wrong for the Daleks because Dalek Caan was actually betraying them and neglected to tell anyone of the meta-crises Doctor clone and Doctor-Donna....who of course were the ones who weren't prisioners next to the console but rather materialised onboard the ship.

[Charles RB]

So basically the Daleks were beaten because they listened to Caan and didn't just go "fuck him, he's clearly mental *exterminate*" and move on like you'd think they'd do.

Of course they only turned up and had power because of Caan, who then decided to betray them but only after they were nearly victorious. Caan's a bit thick really.

EDIT: And thinking about it, if they wanted a Cultist of Skaro to secretly work to bring down the Daleks, wouldn't keeping Dalek Sec around have made more sense? He was halfway there already (which didn't make much sense really, it's not like humans aren't tribalistic and want power, especially when the human in question was a fucking crime boss - you know, I've changed my mind halfway, fuck Dalek Sec).

[Typo Lad]

I think they were beaten by Davros, who was the one listening to Caan, who missed the whole "mental" thing on account of being mental himself.

[Tik]

So basically the Daleks were beaten because they listened to Caan and didn't just go "fuck him, he's clearly mental *exterminate*" and move on like you'd think they'd do.
Well, everything Caan had been saying was coming true, mostly in favor for the Daleks. He was a useful tool to have around ("None of this would have been possible without Dalek Caan"). The only reason they would have had to exterminate him was if they found out he was betraying them.....and they found that out far too late.
Of course they only turned up and had power because of Caan, who then decided to betray them but only after they were nearly victorious. Caan's a bit thick really.
Well Dalek Caan wanted to wipe out every single Dalek, leaving not one survivor. Only with the Crucible in place link-shielding the Daleks would that be possible, as he foresaw.

[AlistairCrane]

But then why keep all of your prisoners right next to the important console.

Only in movies and TV have I EVER heard of prisoners being brought to a main headquarters. In real life your prisoners are kept AWAY from everybody else and anything even reasonably important.

Because it's fiction, and that's what happens in fiction.

Plus, the Daleks, being cocky, never expected the Doctor's human companions to be much of a threat.

[king mob]

I dunno about that - I haven't seen Resurrection and Revelation, but they were pretty formidable in Remembrace.

They're lackies though because the problem with using Davros is that it reduces the Daleks to shady henchmen, when really they should be the main deal in the way RTD built them up in the first series of Nu Who.

[king mob]

The fact that she could do it with the Doctor's knowledge isn't the problem.
What is far fetched is that every Dalek except for the supreme Dalek would even have a link between their suits and the ship, specially one that can be hacked that easily from a random console

Indeed. It was a typical RTD reset ending that was just rubbish.

[king mob]

People who complain about politics in fantasy fiction and comics would shit themselves if they saw the Pertwee era.

Too right, it's one of the things I loved about the Pertwee stories when I saw them again when I was much, much older. We can thank Robert Holmes and Barry Letts for all that, as well as having Terrance Dicks there as script editor keeping it all under control.

[AlistairCrane]

Indeed. It was a typical RTD reset ending that was just rubbish.

:rolleyes:
He's leaving, so you can stop complaining now.

[Charles RB]

They're lackies though because the problem with using Davros is that it reduces the Daleks to shady henchmen

Yeah, that was a pity. They really should've had Davros out of that story (while still conning the audience into thinking the Battle Computer is him).

Even the second Davros actor thinks this, saying he viewed Destiny and Davros' plot as a grumpy old guy going on about how they need him when the Daleks are doing fine on their own. (Which sadly wasn't the Destiny plot!)

[Toku King]

Indeed. It was a typical RTD reset ending that was just rubbish.

Davros made the self destruct console just in case the Daleks decide to kill him.

[Charles RB]

And the Daleks let him?! That's even worse!

[Charles RB]

Too right, it's one of the things I loved about the Pertwee stories when I saw them again when I was much, much older. We can thank Robert Holmes and Barry Letts for all that, as well as having Terrance Dicks there as script editor keeping it all under control.

I don't think any subsequent Who era was ever as political either.

The fact the Pertwee era was very successful and rejuvenated the show sort of pisses on the idea that politics and real-world stuff in fantasy/sci-fi will drive away the audiences.

[Stressfactor]

I don't think any subsequent Who era was ever as political either.

The fact the Pertwee era was very successful and rejuvenated the show sort of pisses on the idea that politics and real-world stuff in fantasy/sci-fi will drive away the audiences.I've detected some political overtones in some of the 6th Doctor stories as well as some of the 5th Doctor stories. The big problem is that the political overtones in the 6th Doctor's stuff is completely buried under really, really, REALLY bad scripts.

[Toku King]

And the Daleks let him?! That's even worse!

And what makes you thin that they knew? Daleks are extremely arrogant, and wouldn't expect Davros to do anything. These Daleks are newer, so they didn't know Davros' devious past.

[Charles RB]

And what makes you thin that they knew?

He was a cell with Daleks constantly around him and they'd have to give him anything he needed to build stuff. How would they not know?

[Toonimator]

Maybe he pulled a Tony Stark... told them he was building a new weapon for them, but really was making one for himself. Only, instead of becoming suspicious like the Ten Rings guys did in the Iron Man movie, the Daleks merely got arrogant after he finished and just said "Pfah! We need no new weapons! We can EX-TERM-INATE just fine on our own, thank you!" and left it at that.

[Captain Jim]

Anyone else reading Doctor Who: The Forgotten?


I've heard a lot of positive comments about it, so I plan to pick up the trade.

[Tobias March]

OK... I'm not sure how this contradicts what I said before. The point is that Star Trek comes mostly from the ideas of one man. There was a vision and overall philosophy that informs the entire series. Now, if one doesn't like that vision, then one tends not to like the show (or shows).

It never made any sense to me that people would gripe at how unrealistic the Star Trek world is: It's science fiction, folks! Of course, it's unrealistic!




I suppose one can eke out some sort of philosophical unity for DW this way. But, it still feels rather inconsistent to me. And it is so obvious that it changes from producer to producer and writer to writer. The complaints about the last series of DW with a sometimes pro-genocide/sometimes anti-genocide Doctor seems to bear that out.

Are you the one who pointed out a while back that Star Trek is always at its best when it reflects the current political situation? I remember reading that somewhere on these forums and finding it to be a very astute point.

But you can you can't argue that Doctor Who is inconsistent and Star Trek not - if the latter changed considerably once Roddenberry died.

Roddenberry was a strict Utopianist - everything is going to work out. Whereas STTNG became more reflective of America's role with respect to the rest of the world in the 90's; Ron Moore's Deep Space Nine was a conspiracy filled paranoia-fest; Voyager's just a mess; and Enterprise I can't comment on - however. To argue that they are consistent is absurd, as they relate only tangentially to Roddenberry's vision.

I always preferred John Zerzan's (http://www.insurgentdesire.org.uk/startrek.htm) take on it.

[Captain Jim]

From the Doctor Who News Page:

Both Teletext and The Sun are reporting today that Freema Agyeman will return to Doctor Who for one more appearance as Martha Jones before David Tennant leaves the role. Agyeman is, according to the reports, scheduled to appear in one of the four upcoming specials that Tennant will appear in before turning over the role to Matt Smith. Says the Sun, "Freema's on board. It's early days so it's unclear what exactly Martha will be up to in the new show."

Good news, as far as I'm concerned.

[king mob]

And the Daleks let him?! That's even worse!

''What is that you are building Davros'!?

'It's a console that will destroy every single Dalek and control me as well''

'Why is that''?

'I dunno, seems like a good idea really, now where do you want the toilets?''

[king mob]

I've detected some political overtones in some of the 6th Doctor stories as well as some of the 5th Doctor stories. The big problem is that the political overtones in the 6th Doctor's stuff is completely buried under really, really, REALLY bad scripts.

There's supposed to be a lot of attacks on Thatcherism on the 6th and 7th Doctor stories, but they're just so crude they miss the point by a mile. Vengance on Varos is an exception though.

[AlistairCrane]

From the Doctor Who News Page:



Good news, as far as I'm concerned.

Yes!!! Love Martha! Second-fave companion, and it'll be nice to see her again since she didn't get much face time with the Doctor in the season finale.

[AlistairCrane]

I'm going to give Pyramids of Mars and Robots of Death a try...perhaps I'll like the Tom Baker era more than Resurrection/Remembrance of the Daleks.

[king mob]

I'm going to give Pyramids of Mars and Robots of Death a try...perhaps I'll like the Tom Baker era more than Resurrection/Remembrance of the Daleks.

Robots of Death is fairly average T. Baker fare, but Pyramids of Mars is magnificent, one of the top five Who serials ever, and of course mentioned in RTD's splendid Queer as Folk series for Channel 4.

[Matt]

The DVD of PoM contains a hilarious parody of Sutekh, where it's revealed what his life was like after he starred in Dr Who.

"This is Neil. Neil before Sutekh!"

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Since I liked giving a full review of a Colin Baker story-arc of the Doctor. I plan to start at the begining. THE GRAND BEGINING of it all.


Doctor Who : An Un-Earthly Child

The Good- This starts the entire thing and its a classic. It really lured me in as it had a Twilight Zone feel to it. Plus I always felt the B & W episodes of Doctor Who were pretty awesome . It had a great feel in black & white.

The story starts as a classic as Susan Foreman has her teachers Ian Chesterton and Barbara Wright confused by her behavior. Soon enough the secret is out once the 2 force their way past her "Grandfather" the Doctor into the Tardis.

All the elements start here really. Susan tells us how she named the Tardis , she also as the Hartnell , Doctor too says the ship should disguise itself. But a circuit breaks and it stays a police box.

Anyhow you have to love Hartnell in this. The guy did abduct Ian and Barbara . But it was more like he was mad that Ian & Barbara questioned his sanity and genuis . And to show them he was like... ok ....time for a trip. Also part of it was Susan was wanting to leave him in the 20th century and he couldn't leave her. That you can tell he wouldn't just take off without her.

They end up in the Cave Man days as Za and Kal battle over who can bring fire to the tribe . And you get some good character motivations by each man involved. They both want the honor of being leader to having the best woman.

Of course the exchanges between Ian and the Doctor are very fun. The 2 disagree a lot on things as the Doctor is seen as too arrogant and at times not caring in this story. But Ian later realizes later that being too eager to help the tribe and Za learn to make fire could have been a mistake as he doesn't wanna let them go !

They make their escape due to Ian's quick thinking though. So good plan there.

Barbara and Ian wanna go home. But as the Doctor explains something has set off his course and he can't get them home for now. So they are forced to be with him.


The Bad: The only bad part for me in this opening arc was the spot before the final chapter. In it we quickly cut back as Ian makes fire for the cavemen. We don't see them get taken back to the ship or how they cure Za.


OVERALL : ***** Outta 5.

This launched the franchise and it was pretty damn good. You can tell the BBC people did a lot on such a small budget. And even with Hartnell's Doctor being so arrogant and at times non-caring....he did have that twinkle in his eyes. That you knew there was something good beneath him.

I recommend this classic for everyone.

[Stressfactor]

Robots of Death is fairly average T. Baker fare, but Pyramids of Mars is magnificent, one of the top five Who serials ever, and of course mentioned in RTD's splendid Queer as Folk series for Channel 4.
I like "Robots of Death" for it's very subtle send-up of sci-fi -- particularly sci-fi with robots in it. I t deliberately plays with just about every robot cliche that appeared in print, movies, and TV from 1950 to that moment. They even included references to some of the sci-fi greats like Isaac Asimov and Poul Anderson.

THIS is the way to do a story that is both a subtle satire and a loving tribute all at the same time.

And RTD also payed tribute to it with the "Host" robots in "Voyage of the Damned" -- right down to one of the robots getting his hand popped off in a door.

[Charles RB]

The DVD of PoM contains a hilarious parody of Sutekh, where it's revealed what his life was like after he starred in Dr Who.

"This is Neil. Neil before Sutekh!"

In a similarly groan-inducing callback, the last Doctor Who Mag strip with Rose had her finding out that, to save her life, the Doctor had to snog her mum.

At which point, standing in a pile of discarded ("dead") alien-monster costumes, she screams "THERE SHOULD HAVE BEEN ANOTHER WAY!".

[Toku King]

He was a cell with Daleks constantly around him and they'd have to give him anything he needed to build stuff. How would they not know?

Because, like I already wrote, they're newer Daleks, and didn't know about Davros' devious past.

[Ontir]

If the Daleks know about the Doctor, I think they probably downloaded their entire history, including Davros, into every new Dalek.

[Toku King]

If the Daleks know about the Doctor, I think they probably downloaded their entire history, including Davros, into every new Dalek.

And his betrayals were never truly open to the Daleks. And besides, Davros most likely programmed them himself.

[Charles RB]

Because, like I already wrote, they're newer Daleks, and didn't know about Davros' devious past.

That makes no sense as a counter-argument - I'm saying they have to give him anything he needed to build stuff. Whether they know he's been devious before or not is irrelevant, they should know what he's building and work out "hang on a minute, that looks dodgy...".

Because the Daleks aren't thick, and they are screamingly paranoid and aggressive in the face of anything that seems a threat.

[Toku King]

That makes no sense as a counter-argument - I'm saying they have to give him anything he needed to build stuff. Whether they know he's been devious before or not is irrelevant, they should know what he's building and work out "hang on a minute, that looks dodgy...".

Because the Daleks aren't thick, and they are screamingly paranoid and aggressive in the face of anything that seems a threat.

There's a million controls, one extra one doesn't look any different.
And I watched the episode again anyways: It was a power source for all Dalek technology, and the Doctor pushed it into overload.

[Ontir]

And his betrayals were never truly open to the Daleks. And besides, Davros most likely programmed them himself.

Davros was captured and imprisoned at one point. The Dalek's stormed the prison ship and freed him. That, along with the various worlds they've conquered and plundered would allow them to obtain a great deal of information. Besides which, given the generally frail state of Davros, physically, I'm sure he's got back-ups of his own thoughts and memories. In the arrangement between he and the Dalek Emperor in the Crucible they most likely had access to them as well.

[Charles RB]

one extra one doesn't look any different.

Again, he can only build it if they let him and give him the stuff cos he's locked up down there. It can look like anything, they're still going to know what it is because they're responsible for it being built.

It was a power source for all Dalek technology

...now it's even worse than before! They have a single power source for all their stuff and they keep it, not with the Supreme Dalek, but in the basement where they keep a sociopath and an insane abomination?

[Tik]

...now it's even worse than before! They have a single power source for all their stuff and they keep it, not with the Supreme Dalek, but in the basement where they keep a sociopath and an insane abomination?
Its fairly obvious that Davros's console was NOT a single power source. The Supreme Dalek was in control of the transmat and the Reality Bomb for example.

Davros had the Magnetron console. Thats it. It's not designed to kill Daleks, its designed to move planets and whatnot from anywhere and anytime in the universe. Its an important console that, due to its link to the Dalekanium power feeds, could overload any Dalek/ship that was link-shielded to the Crucible. Due to its link with those feeds the console could also be jury-rigged to generate different types of wavelengths or interfere with the psychic control Daleks have with their casings.

The one thing to keep in mind is that such tactics that were used could not have occured in normal circumstances (ie before the Reality Bomb countdown). Its only because the Crucible was link-shielding the Daleks from the effects of the Reality Bomb was that consoles connection to the Dalekanium power feeds used to such devastating effect.

[Tobias March]

Look Journey's End just wasn't.....very good. Though in typical deus ex-y fashion, I was amused that Dalek Caan pulled a 'Bad Wolf', in somehow arranging all the little odd coincidences of the season.

[AlistairCrane]

Look Journey's End just wasn't.....very good. Though in typical deus ex-y fashion, I was amused that Dalek Caan pulled a 'Bad Wolf', in somehow arranging all the little odd coincidences of the season.

Not true. Journey's End was a fun, fantastic episode---we got to see Rose, Mickey, and Jackie again; Martha kicked ass; Jack and Torchwood folded in with main Doctor Who continuity; Sarah Jane returned; Davros returned; we got happy endings a plenty; and a little pathos with Donna forgetting. Probably one of my favourite Doctor Who episodes in existence.

[Tobias March]

Not true. Journey's End was a fun, fantastic episode---we got to see Rose, Mickey, and Jackie again; Martha kicked ass; Jack and Torchwood folded in with main Doctor Who continuity; Sarah Jane returned; Davros returned; we got happy endings a plenty; and a little pathos with Donna forgetting. Probably one of my favourite Doctor Who episodes in existence.

Good for you! :smile:


.....I thought it was pants.

[AlistairCrane]

I don't know what that means.

I am wearing pants.

[Tobias March]

I don't know what that means.

I am wearing pants.

Good for you!!

Urban Dictionary (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Pants)

(h) Adjective. British. Rubbish

[AlistairCrane]

Oh, British slang is so fierce!

Also, I think my avatar speaks for itself re: my feelings on JE. :wink:

[AlistairCrane]

I watched Pyramids of Mars and I liked it. Tom Baker is a good Doctor and he has a nice, Doctor-y smile. And I liked the Gothic tone. Somehow they managed to pull off supernatural and sci fi in a very unique way without being dumb.

Sarah Jane was a very good, active companion, who actually did stuff that helped, much like Rose and Martha. Her white dress was a bit much, though.

What's funny is the production values are really no different from the 80s episodes I've watched. That's a compliment for this era and sort of an insult for the following ones.

What I don't get is: If DW is filmed on videotape, why do the outdoor scenes look so different? I can't wrap my head around that.

[Tobias March]

Oh, British slang is so fierce!

Also, I think my avatar speaks for itself re: my feelings on JE. :wink:

Fair enough. See I stated I didn't like it; you said you did and then said the following:

Not true. Journey's End was a fun, fantastic episode---we got to see Rose, Mickey, and Jackie again; Martha kicked ass; Jack and Torchwood folded in with main Doctor Who continuity; Sarah Jane returned; Davros returned; we got happy endings a plenty; and a little pathos with Donna forgetting. Probably one of my favourite Doctor Who episodes in existence.

That's not an argument. That's a list. It's like people saying the life of Jesus is 'The Greatest Story Ever Told'. But I'm not a practicing Christian, so it's lost on me. I mean for balls to the wall action I'd take Moses or Mohammed any day...anyway.

I'll give my reasons for not liking Journey's End. I didn't like the fakeout with the replicated Doctor. I didn't like Sarah Jane just shrieking when confronted with adversity. Billy Piper was just...weird. I rewatched the Doomsday recently and noticed I had the same problem with her there during her 'I'm Dead' speeches. She has this strange way of delivering lines that are supposed to be portentous. It sounds like she's underwater or something, it just bothers me. Dalek Caan being the reason for all the coincidences, as I've said above, also bothered me. In this and Bad Wolf we have a rather egregious deus ex that simply explains away all the 'mysteries', of the story arc rather than explaining them.

Really though that's a bit of a list too, so argument time. RTD uses Journeys End as a swansong to many of the concepts he introduced from the beginning of his tenure. There is a certain pathos to that, but somehow the episode itself simply is a staging ground for these ideas. They appear or are referred to and then we move on to the next one.

It is like ticking items off a list.

Above all he uses the episode to prove that Donna is an amazing character. Actually not prove....shout at us repeatedly 'Donna is an amazing character - love her!!' With that in mind, Doctor Donna and her eventual fate becomes less a beautiful thematic ending to the series, and more a conclusion inserted into the story. Donna as a Companion was fine, nothing special, but personable and viewers seem to enjoy her (except for those crying for the actress' blood from the outset). Yet this conclusion smacks to me of the writer almost saying 'Well I liked her and that's what matters'.

To me the more tragic ending for Donna, despite the crying and wailing of Journey's End, was her leaving the Library just moments after her 'husband' spotted her. In that missed opportunity she lost someone she could have loved, someone she had shared a lifetime with. Whereas in Journey's End she is 'reduced', to this vulgar person without the Doctor in her life. Once again all the fan's crying foul over Donna's inclusion are somehow being punished in a rather strange way. 'This is what you wanted - this is what she'd be like if she never entered the show'.

What makes it stranger is that we've already been through this with Turn Left.

It's a very odd episode. There is an ambient sense of relief that it's finished and the writer gets to move on - but also an odd sense of authorial pique at fandom.

I will say I love the bit with Martha smiling right at the camera.

[AlistairCrane]

I don't need to make an argument--I simply need to tell you what I liked about the episode. I'm not trying to argue/fight, I'm trying to tell you what I liked.

[Tobias March]

I don't need to make an argument--I simply need to tell you what I liked about the episode. I'm not trying to argue/fight, I'm trying to tell you what I liked.

Civil argument need not be a fight. Simply explaining an opposing point of view. For example I say I don't like it, you say it's the greatest episode in existence.

....now that's one hell of a claim.

[AlistairCrane]

Civil argument need not be a fight. Simply explaining an opposing point of view. For example I say I don't like it, you say it's the greatest episode in existence.

....now that's one hell of a claim.

But really, since I made that claim, only I need to believe it. And I do. So what's the big deal?

[Tobias March]

But really, since I made that claim, only I need to believe it. And I do. So what's the big deal?

None I guess, aside from opinion need not be immovable. I like to discuss things I have an interest in with people. If they talk back to me and have a different opinion - all the better. Yet simply stating 'I like it', frustrates as I can't discuss that. It's just a stated opinion, there is nothing to talk about.

[AlistairCrane]

And I'm the opposite. My opinion is unbreakable to me, and I'm not interested in discussing what someone didn't like about it because it ruins my enjoyment of it.

But anyway, it's no big deal. I loved it and hopefully the list of things I liked are things that others liked so we can share the same + opinion.

[Tobias March]

And I'm the opposite. My opinion is unbreakable to me, and I'm not interested in discussing what someone didn't like about it because it ruins my enjoyment of it.

But anyway, it's no big deal. I loved it and hopefully the list of things I liked are things that others liked so we can share the same + opinion.

Well maybe so. If you really like something though and others don't, it's not an attack on you. They merely don't agree. What is useful about argument is that sometimes compromise can be reached.

For example I really don't like Dawn of the Dead the remake. I had a flatmate who loved it. In the end it came down to me admitting that I really enjoyed the first 10 minutes or so and the Johnny Cash song and we were good.

[AlistairCrane]

On a totally different note, I have a serious question about Pyramids of Mars:

This serial aired in 1975, but Sarah Jane says she's from 1980. Is Sarah Jane from the future?

[Cyke]

If you really like something though and others don't, it's not an attack on you. They merely don't agree. What is useful about argument is that sometimes compromise can be reached.

I really wish political pundits would learn this not-so-sophisticated lesson.

[Charles RB]

Look Journey's End just wasn't.....very good.

You're more polite than me. I was thinking "Journey's End was dangly donkey bollocks".

EDIT: And why do Gwen and Ianto get to be in the two-parter, but not Maria and Clyde from Sarah Jane Adventures?! Curse you RTD!

[Stressfactor]

On a totally different note, I have a serious question about Pyramids of Mars:

This serial aired in 1975, but Sarah Jane says she's from 1980. Is Sarah Jane from the future?

First, your earlier question re: the difference between video tape and film for the story. It was BBC practice at the time, across the board for every BBC show, that videotape would be used for all studio filming and film would be used for all location or exterior filming. I don't think I've ever seen a good reason why this was but I do know it was BBC practice and not just limited to "Doctor Who".

As to Sarah Jane's timeline... This is tied to what is known as "The UNIT Dating Controversy". Basically it involved some writers of episodes screwing up as well as the producers screwing up....

It begins with "The Web of Fear" -- a Troughton story which first introduces Lethbridge-Stewart -- as a Col., not yet a Brigadier. The story was SUPPOSED to take place in the early 1970's but all of the props and costumes date from the time the episode was filmed -- 1966. There is also nothing firm IN the story that explicitly SAYS that it is the early 1970's but it's hinted.

The follow up was another Troughton story -- this one set up UNIT and gave Lethbridge-Stewart his title of Brigadier. "The Invasion" was supposed to be taking place in 1978 but, again, costumes and most props very clearly dated it to the time it was filmed -- 1968. When the Jon Pertwee era dawned that idea was that all the episodes were supposed to be set in the "near future" -- about 10 years down the road in the late 1970's to early 1980s. The problem again was that fashions and props were contemporary to the early 1970's. Also, since the show didn't have a staff team of writers but just accepted pitches from any writer who could make a good pitch not every writer got the memo about the time setting and simply set their stories to contemporary times. This caused inconsistencies in some stuff.

Obviously, the writer of "The Pyramids of Mars" was one of those who 'got the memo' and so took the view that the 4th Doctor was still operating off of that "near future" timeline -- which is why Sarah says she's from 1980. There is another explanation. A sub-set of fans argue that, the 3rd Doctor's stories DO occur in the early to mid-1970's HOWEVER, shortly after the 4th Doctor comes onto the scene, he accidentally screws up Sarah Jane's personal timline. Due to this at one point there would have been TWO of her running around in the same time period so he picked her up and took her traveling for a while until it was the proper time to put her back and that it is THIS version of Sarah Jane who appears in "The Pyramids of Mars" and that's why she says she's from 1980.

Really, the BEST thing to do is assume that Sarah Jane misspoke and that "The Web of Fear" took place in 1966 (instead of 1973 or 1974), "The Invasion" took place in 1968 (instead of 1978) and Jon Pertwee's entire run took place in the early to mid 1970's.


Still the fan arguements over the dates the UNIT stories took place is why in "The Sontaran Stratagem" the Doctor says he worked for UNIT "In the 1970's... or was it the 1980's?"

[AlistairCrane]

Thanks, Stressfactor! Maybe Doctor Who needs his own Crisis on Infinite Earths to figure this one out. :wink:

[Charles RB]

Really, the BEST thing to do is assume that Sarah Jane misspoke and that "The Web of Fear" took place in 1966 (instead of 1973 or 1974), "The Invasion" took place in 1968 (instead of 1978) and Jon Pertwee's entire run took place in the early to mid 1970's.

And ignore every guess the writers made of who'd be the Prime Minister in the 70s eps, or you'll have to explain how completely different parties with completely different policies could do everything the same & lead to the same 80s as our in our world.

Luckily the 1970s British spaceflights to Mars got explained in the Who Killed Kennedy book as being the result of scavenged Cybermen tech, so that's sorted!

[Stressfactor]

Thanks, Stressfactor! Maybe Doctor Who needs his own Crisis on Infinite Earths to figure this one out. :wink:Ohhh no. Not "Crisis".... While an admirable idea "Crisis" ended up causing almost as many problems as it fixed...

No, no "Crisis" for the Doctor... I'll take the idea that there are alternate universes out there -- or that the Doctor's constant mucking about in time DOES cause some things to shift about the future....

But alternate universes are fun. They allow writers and actors to explore ideas that couldn't be done any other way and I like some "imaginary stories" since they let a story play out to a logical conclusion while the "main" timeline remains untouched.

For example, there are probably fan-fiction writers out there right now writing all kinds of adventures for Doc 10.5 and Rose in the parallel universe that would probably never get told anywhere else. There are people who say "What if the Doctor regenerated into a woman?" and explore that possibility.

Hey, if it turns out pretty well you never know -- they may actually get tapped to write the story for the regular series. For example, look at Paul Cornell's "Human Nature" since the offical TV series has never ACTUALLY acknowledged the novels this makes them "What If?" kind of stories. Cornell wrote such a good one that it actually DID end up becoming canon for the series.

Just the thought of having a black actor in the role probably got someone to thinking and maybe they write a story about a future incarnation of the Doctor who is black and then maybe that story inspires some producer farther on down the line to hire a black actor. Or maybe someone writes a story in which the Doctor regenerates as someone with Asian decent or Middle Eastern and somewhere down the line a producer goes "That's a good idea!" and runs with it.

Inspiration and imagination should never be limited by the boundaries of time and space. Heck, imagination should not even be limited by reality!

[king mob]

Good for you! :smile:


.....I thought it was pants.

Big skiddy pants.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/kmob/pants.jpg

[king mob]

What's funny is the production values are really no different from the 80s episodes I've watched. That's a compliment for this era and sort of an insult for the following ones.

You're assuming that Who had an increase in budget over the years; it didn't. If anything it saw a massive decline in budget which should explain any difference.

What I don't get is: If DW is filmed on videotape, why do the outdoor scenes look so different? I can't wrap my head around that.


Pyramids of Mars still had studio filming done on VT, while location work was done on film. By 86/87 Who, and most BBC drama, was done mainly on VT.

[king mob]

Billy Piper was just...weird. I rewatched the Doomsday recently and noticed I had the same problem with her there during her 'I'm Dead' speeches. She has this strange way of delivering lines that are supposed to be portentous. It sounds like she's underwater or something, it just bothers me.

I think she's been trying to shake off the last of her Swindon accent, & it's ended up with her acting with an exceptionally weird accent.

To me the more tragic ending for Donna, despite the crying and wailing of Journey's End, was her leaving the Library just moments after her 'husband' spotted her. In that missed opportunity she lost someone she could have loved, someone she had shared a lifetime with.

Indeed. Her hearts desire is to settle down with the right man, have kids and raise a family. To see her lose it was horrendous, and that final blow that Moffat pprovides when it's clear that Donna's man of her dreams was actually real was heartbreaking.


Whereas in Journey's End she is 'reduced', to this vulgar person without the Doctor in her life. Once again all the fan's crying foul over Donna's inclusion are somehow being punished in a rather strange way. 'This is what you wanted - this is what she'd be like if she never entered the show'.

Which is a weird ending when it's been made clear that a normal life is what she actually wants. I don't understand how RTD can flit from 'Corrie and chips is great' to 'Corrie and chips is depressing and a fate worse than death'. I actually found Donna's fate to be incredibly insulting to the audience & most unlike RTD, who has been exceptional in his career in writing working class characters brilliantly.



I will say I love the bit with Martha smiling right at the camera.

I like that, but for me the highlight is the scene at the end between Cribbins & Tennant. After nearly 50 minutes of nonsense, RTD comes up with a scene that's simply glorious.

[king mob]

First, your earlier question re: the difference between video tape and film for the story. It was BBC practice at the time, across the board for every BBC show, that videotape would be used for all studio filming and film would be used for all location or exterior filming. I don't think I've ever seen a good reason why this was but I do know it was BBC practice and not just limited to "Doctor Who".



It's down to cost & practicality. Early VT cameras were huge clunky efforts that could barely get around the studio floor, let alone be dragged down a location like Wooky Hole Caves. So film was a easier & cheaper alternative for location filming until the mid-80's when videotape was vastly cheaper in cost, & video cameras were lighter & easier to use.

[Stressfactor]

It's down to cost & practicality. Early VT cameras were huge clunky efforts that could barely get around the studio floor, let alone be dragged down a location like Wooky Hole Caves. So film was a easier & cheaper alternative for location filming until the mid-80's when videotape was vastly cheaper in cost, & video cameras were lighter & easier to use.Thanks for the info King Mob! I don't know that much about the entertainment industry behind the scenes except for things like the commentary track son the early Hartnell stuff when you can hear Verity Lambert complaining about the really old, really bad cameras the show was stuck with in the early days.

[AlistairCrane]

But alternate universes are fun. They allow writers and actors to explore ideas that couldn't be done any other way and I like some "imaginary stories" since they let a story play out to a logical conclusion while the "main" timeline remains untouched.



There's nothing fun about alternate universes. They don't count. They're not part of the big picture.

I've hated alt worlds ever since I read my first Elseworlds.

[AlistairCrane]

But then why didn't they just film the studio scenes on film as well?

[Cyke]

There's nothing fun about alternate universes. They don't count. They're not part of the big picture.


That's the most ironic thing I ever read. Alternate universes always expand the franchise (ie the BIG PICTURE), for good or for ill. Heck, one of the main reasons why the last three episodes of Series 4 were so huge was because the Daleks were threatening to destroy parallel universes as well, not just the normal universe. And humanity couldn't have won without the help of Pete's Universe, too.

[AlistairCrane]

That's the most ironic thing I ever read. Alternate universes always expand the franchise (ie the BIG PICTURE), for good or for ill. Heck, one of the main reasons why the last three episodes of Series 4 were so huge was because the Daleks were threatening to destroy parallel universes as well, not just the normal universe. And humanity couldn't have won without the help of Pete's Universe, too.

But Pete's Universe is not the authentic, prime universe. What irks me about DW is that Rose got shafted into the bastardized "alt" world. She doesn't even get to be part of the real world anymore---she's trapped in a copy. Why have the copy when you can have the original?

[Charles RB]

Heck, one of the main reasons why the last three episodes of Series 4 were so huge was because the Daleks were threatening to destroy parallel universes as well, not just the normal universe. And humanity couldn't have won without the help of Pete's Universe, too.

In fact, the reason why Turn Left worked is getting to see the escalating horrors and crisis caused by a simple difference in Donna's life.

So now we have an episode showing what happens if the Doctor's dead.

(We also have Big Finish audios exploring AUs where the Doctor never left Gallifrey, where he did change the past, where he wasn't with UNIT, where the Daleks are redeemable, and where the show itself never aired)

[Stressfactor]

But then why didn't they just film the studio scenes on film as well?Because back then film was expensive as hell and it's cost is tallied up by length and not by reel so the more film you use the more expensive it is.

[Stressfactor]

There's nothing fun about alternate universes. They don't count. They're not part of the big picture.

I've hated alt worlds ever since I read my first Elseworlds.Oh man, I MISS "Elseworlds"! I mean, sure, it got to the point where DC was doing them waaaayyy too much but man they had some goodies. The Batman/Captain America story by John Byrne is a personal fave. I also like Batman: Nine Lives and Gotham Noir (which actually allowed James Gordon to die! :eek:

The Batman/Hellboy/Starman crossover was also non-continuity and that story was hella fun! There were also a couple of Batman/Daredevil non-con crossovers that I loved.

[Charles RB]

I like the JLA/Planetary crossover-slash-Elseworlds myself. Very well done.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Oh man, I MISS "Elseworlds"! I mean, sure, it got to the point where DC was doing them waaaayyy too much but man they had some goodies. The Batman/Captain America story by John Byrne is a personal fave. I also like Batman: Nine Lives and Gotham Noir (which actually allowed James Gordon to die! :eek:

The Batman/Hellboy/Starman crossover was also non-continuity and that story was hella fun! There were also a couple of Batman/Daredevil non-con crossovers that I loved.

DC has said last year that every Elseworlds that was released actually in New DC with its 52 Worlds...happened. They all have happened and its likely will be re-visited at times.

[Tobias March]

I like the JLA/Planetary crossover-slash-Elseworlds myself. Very well done.

Coolest death for Superman ever.

Although having finally read Ruins last week, I realize Ellis has been plumbing the same material forever.

[Cyke]

But Pete's Universe is not the authentic, prime universe. What irks me about DW is that Rose got shafted into the bastardized "alt" world. She doesn't even get to be part of the real world anymore---she's trapped in a copy. Why have the copy when you can have the original?

So what if Pete's Universe is not the authentic, prime universe (and to who? To Pete, the "main universe" isn't the main at all)? Consequences from one universe were threatening ours (the same thing happened with the Cybermen), making that threat very, very real to the main universe, and vice versa (remember, the stars were going out because of other universes were destroyed by the Dalek weapon. Conversely, remember Donna's explanation in Journey's End about dimensional retroclosure as an aftermath of our heroes' victory in the main universe saving other universes).

For that matter, how could Pete's Universe be the copy if they have overall more advanced technology and experience the future before our universe does? Additionally, how could something be a copy if it was naturally created by the forces of the omniverse? If Pete's Universe was made by a god or a machine, you'd maybe have a point, but the Doctor clearly explains parallel universes as a naturally occurring creation. All told, "authentic, prime" universe is a matter of perspective, and the Doctor himself probably creates a new universe with each adventure anyway.

The thing to remember is that a parallel world isn't really a copy. The alternate version of AlistairCrane believes his world is the geniune article and that you're the copy. There are no fakes, there are always natives to a parallel universe. Rose isn't concerned about her native world, she's concerned about her native Doctor, one lone individual. But the idea of starting a new life or correcting past mistakes in another world and calling it home as a result is best exemplified by Mickey Smith, who became a hero in his own right, and Jackie Tyler, who gave birth to a newborn son. Are Mickey's heroic feats and character growth invalidated because he lives on a "fake" Earth?

Or, to put it in another way, if parallel universes aren't authentic and don't count, why would the Third and Tenth Doctors and friends go to so much trouble to fight evil in those parallel worlds? A threat is a threat, period.

[Cyke]

DC has said last year that every Elseworlds that was released actually in New DC with its 52 Worlds...happened. They all have happened and its likely will be re-visited at times.

Frankly, if DC can adopt that editorial edict, I've no idea why the Whoverse can't either, seeing as how:

1. Whoverse literature and media is farrr outnumbered by DC and thus easier to maintain than DC's lengthy history.

2. Whoverse literature and media has been pulling this stunt for years now.

[Toku King]

But Pete's Universe is not the authentic, prime universe. What irks me about DW is that Rose got shafted into the bastardized "alt" world. She doesn't even get to be part of the real world anymore---she's trapped in a copy. Why have the copy when you can have the original?

It's not a copy. Watch the classic episode "Inferno".

[Charles RB]

For that matter, how could Pete's Universe be the copy if they have overall more advanced technology and experience the future before our universe does? Additionally, how could something be a copy if it was naturally created by the forces of the omniverse?

There's a great line on this in Moore's Top Ten:

"So this Earth is na alternate where the Roman Empire never fell?"
"No. Your Earth is one of the shithole alternaties where it did."

[king mob]

But then why didn't they just film the studio scenes on film as well?


Again it's cost & it explains a bit more about why so many BBC programmes were wiped. Videotape was expensive but it could be reused, film can't be reused, so from a cost aspect it was easier to shoot something on VT, then once it'd be repeated (most programmes were wiped after one repeat) the tape would be wiped and reused.

[king mob]

DC has said last year that every Elseworlds that was released actually in New DC with its 52 Worlds...happened. They all have happened and its likely will be re-visited at times.

And I think that sums up just why I barely read superhero comics anymore. Can't a good story just remain a good story without having to pander to a bunch of continuity geeks.

[Stressfactor]

And I think that sums up just why I barely read superhero comics anymore. Can't a good story just remain a good story without having to pander to a bunch of continuity geeks.Hey! I resemble that remark!:tongue:

Just kidding. And, in fact, it used to NOT be a problem with the Elseworlds imprint. No one was clamoring to make those stories canon. The only reason why DiDio the massive tool made that comment about the 52 worlds was because he wanted to re-use some of the more popular Elseworlds ideas and characters in current stories in order to try to boost circulation.

The Superman: Red Son and Vampire Batman stories were extremely popular and DiDio wanted to use those characters in other stories happening currently and include references to current storylines but he couldn't if "Elseworlds" was just that -- an else world -- a place where maybe this happened but maybe it didn't (Sort of like the ending to the St. Elsewhere tv series -- you don't want to think about it too much). By saying ALL Elseworlds stories were part of the 52 universes it allows him to "visit" these universes and fold characters over. It also then allows for "crossovers" between other stories and characters.

In short -- it's all about the almighty dollar and despite DiDio's claims I doubt we'll ever see a re-visitation of some of the less popular Elseworlds stories -- like Gotham Noir and Batman Nine Lives. The only ones that count are the ones that made a lot of money.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

And I think that sums up just why I barely read superhero comics anymore. Can't a good story just remain a good story without having to pander to a bunch of continuity geeks.

It really doesn't change much...it just says ...all those great Elseworlds tales actually exist on these worlds out there. At some point we could see someone write them again. No big pandering here.

[AlistairCrane]

So what if Pete's Universe is not the authentic, prime universe (and to who? To Pete, the "main universe" isn't the main at all)? Consequences from one universe were threatening ours (the same thing happened with the Cybermen), making that threat very, very real to the main universe, and vice versa (remember, the stars were going out because of other universes were destroyed by the Dalek weapon. Conversely, remember Donna's explanation in Journey's End about dimensional retroclosure as an aftermath of our heroes' victory in the main universe saving other universes).

For that matter, how could Pete's Universe be the copy if they have overall more advanced technology and experience the future before our universe does? Additionally, how could something be a copy if it was naturally created by the forces of the omniverse? If Pete's Universe was made by a god or a machine, you'd maybe have a point, but the Doctor clearly explains parallel universes as a naturally occurring creation. All told, "authentic, prime" universe is a matter of perspective, and the Doctor himself probably creates a new universe with each adventure anyway.

The thing to remember is that a parallel world isn't really a copy. The alternate version of AlistairCrane believes his world is the geniune article and that you're the copy. There are no fakes, there are always natives to a parallel universe. Rose isn't concerned about her native world, she's concerned about her native Doctor, one lone individual. But the idea of starting a new life or correcting past mistakes in another world and calling it home as a result is best exemplified by Mickey Smith, who became a hero in his own right, and Jackie Tyler, who gave birth to a newborn son. Are Mickey's heroic feats and character growth invalidated because he lives on a "fake" Earth?

Or, to put it in another way, if parallel universes aren't authentic and don't count, why would the Third and Tenth Doctors and friends go to so much trouble to fight evil in those parallel worlds? A threat is a threat, period.

You just plain don't get it. The Doctor is from the real, authentic, prime universe. THAT is the universe that matters---the one from which the show's antagonist comes from and spends most of his time. A parallel universe is essentially a copy or a fake, and therefore doesn't count.

It all comes down to authenticity. Why have Sugar Twin when you can have raw sugar?

[AlistairCrane]

And I think that sums up just why I barely read superhero comics anymore. Can't a good story just remain a good story without having to pander to a bunch of continuity geeks.

A good story is NOT a good story if it's wildly inconsistent with a character's identity and background. Continuity is necessary to maintain order and ensure that a story actually resonates.

[AlistairCrane]

Look, I hate alternate universes in general--it's not an exclusive Who thing. No one will ever be able to convince me of their merit.

[Charles RB]

No one will ever be able to convince me of their merit.

You refuse to be convinced of anything ever and throw a fit at the idea of people arguing against your opinion.

This is a character flaw.

[Tony Bang]

There's a great line on this in Moore's Top Ten:

"So this Earth is na alternate where the Roman Empire never fell?"
"No. Your Earth is one of the shithole alternaties where it did."

Also his intro to his Superman book.

"This is an imaginary story, but aren't they all'

[Pro]

You just plain don't get it. The Doctor is from the real, authentic, prime universe. THAT is the universe that matters---the one from which the show's antagonist comes from and spends most of his time. A parallel universe is essentially a copy or a fake, and therefore doesn't count.

Don't make me lecture you on quantum mechanical theory again.

[Tik]

You just plain don't get it. The Doctor is from the real, authentic, prime universe. THAT is the universe that matters---the one from which the show's antagonist comes from and spends most of his time. A parallel universe is essentially a copy or a fake, and therefore doesn't count.

It all comes down to authenticity. Why have Sugar Twin when you can have raw sugar?
I'm intrested in what you think of the Cybus Cybermen episodes then, because they aren't from the Doctors universe (the Mondas Cybermen from the classic series are).

Since the Cybus Cybermen have had a big impact on the Doctors universe, they must count surely? Therefore the parallel universe that they are from must also be authentic.

Not to mention that the Doctor has jaunted around in many parallel universes too.

When it comes down to authenticity and continuity, they all count. To use your own words on the subject, they are all raw suger. Why have one spoonful when you can have more?

[Tony Bang]

Although having finally read Ruins last week, I realize Ellis has been plumbing the same material forever.

I read that recently. While I did enjoy, it was the biggest piece of nerd porn I've read since Hal Jordan was brought back.

[Captain Jim]

Why have Sugar Twin when you can have raw sugar?

Some of us are diabetic. :wink:

[Stressfactor]

Also his intro to his Superman book.

"This is an imaginary story, but aren't they all'

And SUCH a wonderful story that one was. It doesn't matter that it wasn't "real" it doesn't change the fact that it was an amazing story from Alan Moore's early days.

But if you want to see him REALLY cut loose with some wild, alternate dimension stuff check out his run on "Supreme". That's some awesome stuff and thankfully collected now.

[Tony Bang]

But if you want to see him REALLY cut loose with some wild, alternate dimension stuff check out his run on "Supreme". That's some awesome stuff and thankfully collected now.

I didn't think it was all collected. I payed a good bit of coin to get all the single issues.

[Tobias March]

And SUCH a wonderful story that one was. It doesn't matter that it wasn't "real" it doesn't change the fact that it was an amazing story from Alan Moore's early days.

But if you want to see him REALLY cut loose with some wild, alternate dimension stuff check out his run on "Supreme". That's some awesome stuff and thankfully collected now.

I waaaaant! :biggrin:

[Matt]

You just plain don't get it. The Doctor is from the real, authentic, prime universe.

Who ever said that? When was it stated?
Oh, right. Never.

The 'who-multiverse' consists of countless alternative universe; some similar and some vastly different to what we usually see in the series. There are also pocket realities (such as used by the White & Black Guardians and the Celestial Toymaker) and it's been seen that the TARDIS can quite happily travel outside of the Universe (Logopolis).

All universes in the who-multiverse are just as 'real' as any other you care to list. They all contain real people who have real experiences and real emotions. The only possible way you could consider the Doctor's universe the 'authentic' or 'prime' universe is to look at the setting in an incredibly narrow and blind-like perspective.

[AlistairCrane]

I'm intrested in what you think of the Cybus Cybermen episodes then, because they aren't from the Doctors universe (the Mondas Cybermen from the classic series are).

Since the Cybus Cybermen have had a big impact on the Doctors universe, they must count surely? Therefore the parallel universe that they are from must also be authentic.

Not to mention that the Doctor has jaunted around in many parallel universes too.

When it comes down to authenticity and continuity, they all count. To use your own words on the subject, they are all raw suger. Why have one spoonful when you can have more?

That's absolutely not the case. The Cybus Cybermen don't really matter because the Cybermen from the Doctor's true universe are the true Cybermen. It's like when a soap recasts a popular character--the recast is never as good as the original.

[AlistairCrane]

The only possible way you could consider the Doctor's universe the 'authentic' or 'prime' universe is to look at the setting in an incredibly narrow and blind-like perspective.

Only the main universe from which our Doctor comes matters to me. You can call that blind if you like. But if the alt verses mattered enough, they'd be part of the main universe and not duplicates. Again, why read photo copies when you can read the actual book?

[AlistairCrane]

Don't make me lecture you on quantum mechanical theory again.

I didn't understand that lecture. I have no idea what a quantum is. I stopped taking science with Grade 10.

[Matt]

Only the main universe from which our Doctor comes matters to me. You can call that blind if you like. But if the alt verses mattered enough, they'd be part of the main universe and not duplicates. Again, why read photo copies when you can read the actual book?

Yes, it's blind.
Let's see if I can think of a comic book analogy. The DC Universe is a perfect one.

Most comic books we read from DC are set on Earth Zero. There are 52 other Universes in the DC Multiverse, however, which we sometimes get to see. Now Earth Zero has a special place in the DC Multiverse but that does not mean the characters on the other 52 Earths are any less 'real' (from the perspective of fictional characters, anyhow).

And the same exact thing applies to the Who-verse; with one proviso. So far we have zero indication the Universe the Doctor inhabits is special in any way, shape or form.

[king mob]

It really doesn't change much...it just says ...all those great Elseworlds tales actually exist on these worlds out there. At some point we could see someone write them again. No big pandering here.

It's the crowbarring of these stories into 'continuity' that's symptomatic of how wanky superhero comics have become, and how daft most readers have become.
Continuity is a nice tool, it can be a stories friend, but when the main reason for a story is continuity (see every even DC have done for 15 years) at the expense of storytelling, then it's time for me to get my coat and leave the superhero comic ghetto.

[king mob]

That's absolutely not the case. The Cybus Cybermen don't really matter because the Cybermen from the Doctor's true universe are the true Cybermen. It's like when a soap recasts a popular character--the recast is never as good as the original.

You've missed the point of the Cybus Cybermen by a mile. They're not replacing the old series Cybermen, they're there as RTD wanted to use the Cybermen but wanted to do it in a slightly different way [whether he was successful is debatable) that didn't mess with what had already been established. Those originial Cybermen are still out there should anyone want to use them, so are the Cybus Cybermen.

[Stressfactor]

I didn't think it was all collected. I payed a good bit of coin to get all the single issues.
No, I think think they got them all except for the quasi-crossover issues with titles like "Youngblood", which Moore also wrote several issues of.

Checker Publishing put them out in two volumes Supreme: Story of the Year and Supreme: The Return. Granted, I'm not sure if both trades are still in print from Checker but if you look around you can porbably find them. They were a bit pricey but they were pretty hefty volumes with some super-nice paper stock.

[Stressfactor]

It's the crowbarring of these stories into 'continuity' that's symptomatic of how wanky superhero comics have become, and how daft most readers have become.
Continuity is a nice tool, it can be a stories friend, but when the main reason for a story is continuity (see every even DC have done for 15 years) at the expense of storytelling, then it's time for me to get my coat and leave the superhero comic ghetto.
Amen. I've dropped nearly every Marvel comic and nearly every DC comic I had been reading. The only ones of either I still follow are those which have generally thrown history out the window and have been forging their own paths. "Immortal Iron Fist" from Marvel is doing a particularly good job at this.

Allow me to say, however, that disliking slavish continuity is not a reason necessarily to abandon superheroes altogether -- just a reason to abandon DC and Marvel. Robert Kirkman has some seriously good stuff going with "Invincible" and "The Astounding Wolf-Man" out of Image, "The Umbrella Academy" is actually worth all the hype it gets and it's kind-of quasi-superhero, Gail Simone's "Welcome to Tranquility" was quasi-superhero and also a lot of fun -- from Wildstorm... etc.

Just because DC and Marvel have ruined THEIR superheroes doesn't mean that everyone else has.

[king mob]

Allow me to say, however, that disliking slavish continuity is not a reason necessarily to abandon superheroes altogether -- just a reason to abandon DC and Marvel. Robert Kirkman has some seriously good stuff going with "Invincible" and "The Astounding Wolf-Man" out of Image, "The Umbrella Academy" is actually worth all the hype it gets and it's kind-of quasi-superhero, Gail Simone's "Welcome to Tranquility" was quasi-superhero and also a lot of fun -- from Wildstorm... etc.

Just because DC and Marvel have ruined THEIR superheroes doesn't mean that everyone else has.

I'm bored of superheroes generally, the only superhero book I can muster any joy for is Captain Britain, everything else I've seen recently is variations on the same rather tired themes.

[ChrisIII]

The GI Joe Teaser trailer is out, and Eccleston has some lines in it....he plays Destro, the guy with the metal head in the original cartoon.


What's everybody's favorite villainous roles for the Doctor actors? Hartnell I'm not so sure, Cushing of course was Grand Moff Tarkin, Troughton the priest in the Omen, Pertwee not so sure, Tom Baker was a Sinbad villain, Davison played his Omega 'clone' in Arc of Infinity, Colin Baker was Maxil also in Arc, and I'm not sure about McCoy and Mcgann....Tennant of course was Barty Crouch Jr in one of the Harry Potter films.

[Tik]

That's absolutely not the case.
Why not? To say that parallel universes and other realities do not matter/count is to ignore continuity. A few examples include:

Inferno, where the Doctor goes to a parallel universe and discovers what could go terribly wrong in his universe. Important info is gleaned so that the Doctor can save the Earth.

The E-Space trilogy/Logopolis, where we learn that the universe would have been dying of heat death by 1981 where it not for the fact that the entropy had been shunted into another universe known as E-Space. This is important because without E-Space, the universe would have been destroyed.
Only the main universe from which our Doctor comes matters to me. You can call that blind if you like. But if the alt verses mattered enough, they'd be part of the main universe and not duplicates. Again, why read photo copies when you can read the actual book?
They mattered enough that Davros and the Daleks built a Reality Bomb to destroy them all. If they didn't matter, they wouldn't have gone to all that trouble. Ditto with the Doctor saving them all.

We also know that a pre-universe existed before the Doctors universe (which was formed when the pre-universe was destroyed) and that the destruction of the Doctors universe will give birth to a new universe.

[AlistairCrane]

Yes, it's blind.
Let's see if I can think of a comic book analogy. The DC Universe is a perfect one.

Most comic books we read from DC are set on Earth Zero. There are 52 other Universes in the DC Multiverse, however, which we sometimes get to see. Now Earth Zero has a special place in the DC Multiverse but that does not mean the characters on the other 52 Earths are any less 'real' (from the perspective of fictional characters, anyhow).

And the same exact thing applies to the Who-verse; with one proviso. So far we have zero indication the Universe the Doctor inhabits is special in any way, shape or form.

The Doctor essentially inhabits "our" universe, which, Matt, as we know, is the ONLY universe. If you understand fiction, it's almost always made clear that the fictionalized universe is supposed to be "our" universe. We are the authentic, prime universe, and so are the stories set in "our" universe. Alt worlds don't count and don't matter.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Why not? To say that parallel universes and other realities do not matter/count is to ignore continuity. A few examples include:

Inferno, where the Doctor goes to a parallel universe and discovers what could go terribly wrong in his universe. Important info is gleaned so that the Doctor can save the Earth.

The E-Space trilogy/Logopolis, where we learn that the universe would have been dying of heat death by 1981 where it not for the fact that the entropy had been shunted into another universe known as E-Space. This is important because without E-Space, the universe would have been destroyed.

They mattered enough that Davros and the Daleks built a Reality Bomb to destroy them all. If they didn't matter, they wouldn't have gone to all that trouble. Ditto with the Doctor saving them all.

We also know that a pre-universe existed before the Doctors universe (which was formed when the pre-universe was destroyed) and that the destruction of the Doctors universe will give birth to a new universe.

I really wanna watch Logopolis at some point. I mean maybe its me but I do like seeing alternate realitys and universes. Sliders was a great show for this early in its run.

The Doctor essentially inhabits "our" universe, which, Matt, as we know, is the ONLY universe. If you understand fiction, it's almost always made clear that the fictionalized universe is supposed to be "our" universe. We are the authentic, prime universe, and so are the stories set in "our" universe. Alt worlds don't count and don't matter.

Then explain the Ultimate Universe in the mainstream Marvel 616 Universe (thats supposed to be Marvel prime) . :rolleyes:

[Tik]

Aren't you going to give up? I've made it clear I don't accept alternate universes, and it's come to the point where I only read the first lines of your posts and now I'm contemplating adding you to my ignore list.
I've only posted twice! Oh very well. In the future I will mearly be quoting your posts as a spring board to discuss things with other people and not yourself if that makes you happy.
The Doctor essentially inhabits "our" universe, which, Matt, as we know, is the ONLY universe. If you understand fiction, it's almost always made clear that the fictionalized universe is supposed to be "our" universe. We are the authentic, prime universe, and so are the stories set in "our" universe. Alt worlds don't count and don't matter.
This is addressed to other people who read this AlistarCrane so dont get upset with what I'm about to say. As I say, its not addressed to you.

The Doctor knows very well about the structure of reality. Indeed the Time Lords are said to monitor the walls between universes. The Time Lady Iris Wildthyme travels to other universes quite frequently for example. They know how importent other realities actually are. They even know of realities where Doctor Who is mearly a tv programme. For example, in TV Action! the TARDIS is shunted into a parallel universe and lands on Earth 1979 where the Eighth Doctor meets Tom Baker (actor that played the 4th Doctor) in the BBC Television Centre and even gets handed a copy of Doctor Who Magazine.

Also our universe is not the only universe as many scientists now subscribe to theories that involve the principle of a multiverse eg Stephen Hawking. Many many works of fiction are also explicitly not set in our universe. The Narnia stories, The Dark Tower and other works of Stephen King, the Hitchikers Guide to the Galaxy, etc.
I really wanna watch Logopolis at some point. I mean maybe its me but I do like seeing alternate realitys and universes. Sliders was a great show for this early in its run
The Dark Tower series is wonderful in its concept of many realities and worlds. The characters even find out that in at least one world they are apparently fictional and being wrote about by an author named Stephen King in a series of books. For me the great thing about other realities and worlds is that anything can exist/happen if you can just imagine it.

[ChrisIII]

Some of the audios/novels also dwelve a bit into alternate universes. There was this whole series of Eighth Doctor audios which had him in another universe, and some of the novels revisit the "Inferno" world. The Sixth Doctor novel State of Change also has a world where the Roman Empire gained steam power technology (Turns out it's an experiment of the Rani's). Certain serials and novels also imply, as noted above, the existence of a universe before our own, where Fenric (From the Curse of Fenric) apparentally comes from. (Doesn't Marvel's Galactus have a similar origin?)

It's also suggested by writers of the novels/writers and comics that the Eighth Doctor adventures take place in alternate universes to deal with the inconsistences between them(Such as the multiple Davros encounters, reunions with Susan and the sheer magnitude of companions Eight has had in various media). This actually works in a sense, since there are 'alternate' ninth Doctors as well. So one could say one Doctor fought in the time war and became Eccleston, while the others in the other universes became Richard E. Grant and Rowan Atkinson, respectively, and never fought in the TW (I think even one of the novels implies this).

[SUPERECWFAN1]

This is addressed to other people who read this AlistarCrane so dont get upset with what I'm about to say. As I say, its not addressed to you.

The Doctor knows very well about the structure of reality. Indeed the Time Lords are said to monitor the walls between universes. The Time Lady Iris Wildthyme travels to other universes quite frequently for example. They know how importent other realities actually are. They even know of realities where Doctor Who is mearly a tv programme. For example, in TV Action! the TARDIS is shunted into a parallel universe and lands on Earth 1979 where the Eighth Doctor meets Tom Baker (actor that played the 4th Doctor) in the BBC Television Centre and even gets handed a copy of Doctor Who Magazine.

Also our universe is not the only universe as many scientists now subscribe to theories that involve the principle of a multiverse eg Stephen Hawking. Many many works of fiction are also explicitly not set in our universe. The Narnia stories, The Dark Tower and other works of Stephen King, the Hitchikers Guide to the Galaxy, etc.

The Dark Tower series is wonderful in its concept of many realities and worlds. The characters even find out that in at least one world they are apparently fictional and being wrote about by an author named Stephen King in a series of books. For me the great thing about other realities and worlds is that anything can exist/happen if you can just imagine it.

It reminds me of the end of the Spiderman animated series where Madame Web has pulled every Spiderman from these alternate realities . Its there Spiderman meets the actor playing him in the movie and he swings by and meets Stan Lee who wrote the character.

They can be fun ...alternate worlds and all. And the Ultimate Universe is a lot like the Sliders episode where they end up in a world where the timeline is speed up 10 years. In it they see that Joe Montana is QB of the 49ers in the 1990's. That Reagan is president and its all 10 years later....

Well in case of the Ultimate Universe its like the mainstream Marvel Universe has been sped up 10 years with changes involved for the Ultimate Universe. Makes it fun.

[ChrisIII]

SUPERECWFAN1, Logopolis actually does not take place in an alternate universe, but gives an explanation for their existence(Well, at least E-space). That being said, it's a decent serial but high on technobabble, and not really the best way Tom could've left. (I've always felt that the best Doctor finales are the ones that best represent their personalities and era-for instance, the Third Doctor using tons of gadgets in Planet of Spiders and Fifth's self-sacrifice in Caves. Tom's finale should've been a bit more light-hearted with some serious bits, as the best of Tom's era was)

[SUPERECWFAN1]

SUPERECWFAN1, Logopolis actually does not take place in an alternate universe, but gives an explanation for their existence(Well, at least E-space). That being said, it's a decent serial but high on technobabble, and not really the best way Tom could've left. (I've always felt that the best Doctor finales are the ones that best represent their personalities and era-for instance, the Third Doctor using tons of gadgets in Planet of Spiders and Fifth's self-sacrifice in Caves. Tom's finale should've been a bit more light-hearted with some serious bits, as the best of Tom's era was)

I've only ever seen the dying sequence where he falls and all the villains who have claimed they will kill the Doctor plays. I haven't ever seen it yet fully. Maybe a good exit for Tom could have been the Keeper of Kragen (spellin sorry) story. Where the Master gets his new face/body and Tom dies and gets a new face and body.

[Captain Jim]

If you understand fiction, it's almost always made clear that the fictionalized universe is supposed to be "our" universe. We are the authentic, prime universe, and so are the stories set in "our" universe.

Interestingly, this was never true at DC Comics. Not sure about the current status quo, but in the "old days," most of DC's stories took place on Earth 1 (though many took place on Earth 2), but "our" universe was Earth Prime.

[Stressfactor]

Moving on.... (because that's the only thing to do with Alistair)

I am finally getting a chance to watch "The War Machines" (hey, I'm a chick, the Superbowl doesn't interest me... not even for the commercials because you KNOW all of the good ones will be all over the internet tomorrow) and I'm surprised by how much I'm LIKING Ben and Polly. The first time I watched this via YouTube I found both rather annoying (although Polly slightly less so than Ben). Now, however, I'm actually finding both characters quite charming.

[Tadhg]

I just got the DVD of The War Machines on Friday, I'm really enjoying the commentary.

I've been buying quite a few of the DVDs recently thanks to the exchange rate. 1.45 to the dollar is a lot better than 1.97.

[Stressfactor]

Oh, and don't forget "Battlefield" in the list of "Alternate Dimension" stories. That one implies that, sometime before the Doctor dies he crosses over into an alternate dimension where he becomes Merlin....

Hmm.... You know, I just thought... that COULD be one way of getting out of the '13 life limit'. Towards the end of the Doctor's 13th life he travels to that universe and, rather than AGING in reverse -- as Merlin did -- he REGENERATES in reverse. Ergo, he STARTS with number 13 and regenerates into 12, then 11, then 10, etc. They wouldn't HAVE to go back to the same actors -- they could just explain that this is a whole new set of regenerations for him.

It would be interesting and it would be fun to see more of the pseudo mideval world the Ancelyn and Morgain and Mordred all came from. I also liked the Doctor reversing that famous quote -- "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistingishable from magic" into "Any sufficiently advanced magic is indistigishable from technology."

[Cyke]

The Doctor knows very well about the structure of reality. Indeed the Time Lords are said to monitor the walls between universes. The Time Lady Iris Wildthyme travels to other universes quite frequently for example. They know how importent other realities actually are. They even know of realities where Doctor Who is mearly a tv programme. For example, in TV Action! the TARDIS is shunted into a parallel universe and lands on Earth 1979 where the Eighth Doctor meets Tom Baker (actor that played the 4th Doctor) in the BBC Television Centre and even gets handed a copy of Doctor Who Magazine.

Also our universe is not the only universe as many scientists now subscribe to theories that involve the principle of a multiverse eg Stephen Hawking. Many many works of fiction are also explicitly not set in our universe. The Narnia stories, The Dark Tower and other works of Stephen King, the Hitchikers Guide to the Galaxy, etc.


Stop being so sophisticated! You have no grasp of fiction, do you? Mirror Spock, the Age of Apocalypse, Final Crisis, and Pete flippin' Tyler had absolutely no influence on the main universe! :)

[Cyke]

You just plain don't get it. The Doctor is from the real, authentic, prime universe. THAT is the universe that matters---the one from which the show's antagonist comes from and spends most of his time. A parallel universe is essentially a copy or a fake, and therefore doesn't count.

It all comes down to authenticity. Why have Sugar Twin when you can have raw sugar?

As Tik pointed out, what's up with the Cybermen, then? When Jackie Tyler fell in love with Pete Tyler all over again, was she falling for a fraud? If so, she'd probably punch you down where you stand. Same deal with Mickey and his dear Grandmother.

Or, you could ask the Daleks that Mickey and Jackie shot down, ask them if the guns that killed them were fakes and shouldn't have worked on them because they were only fakes of real energy guns, even though their guts were splattered all over the street from said fake guns.

I don't know, it seems that whenever 10 people are telling you one thing and you insist on another, ESPECIALLY when it contradicts what the show actually portrays, you might want to rethink that "you just plain don't get it" brand of condescension. I sort of feel like the Doctor himself could tell you all these things and you'd still poke your fingers in your ears and then block him for disagreeing with you with his "truthiness."

Oh, can we also bring up the Valeyard as another example of a very real, very influential threat from an alternate future?

[Typo Lad]

So what is the Valeyard, 'zactly?

[Stressfactor]

So what is the Valeyard, 'zactly?A potential future regeneration in which all of the Doctor's darker impulses come home to roost without being tempered by the better parts of his personailty. That's another subject I would LOVE to see explored in a story -- the spectre of the Valyard looming in the Doctor's future. You know, come to think of it, the Valyard kind of serves the role of a "Ghost of Christmas Future" for the Doctor. He gets to see what kind of a horrible person he could become if he doesn't watch out.

[Matt]

In the novels it was revealed that the 7th Doctor killed off the 6th Doctor to make sure that the Valeyard never came to exist. Crafty bastard.

[Charles RB]

When Jackie Tyler fell in love with Pete Tyler all over again, was she falling for a fraud?

Well, yeah, he was a different guy who just happened to look like her dead husband and vice versa.

That's why I hated that stupid bloody "LOOK, THIS IS A HAPPY ENDING BE HAPPY VIEWERS" scene.

[Toku King]

Just saw "The Stolen Earth" again, and damn! Sorry guys, but that was one hell of a first parter! When I first saw it, I remember squealing with joy. Now, even though I know what's going to happen next, I still found myself giddy and all flustered.
The moment that the mystery aliens send out their first message, I got massive chills! And that "To Be Continued" ending? FLIPPING AMAZING!

[king mob]

I just got the DVD of The War Machines on Friday, I'm really enjoying the commentary.

I've been buying quite a few of the DVDs recently thanks to the exchange rate. 1.45 to the dollar is a lot better than 1.97.


So you're the person that stopping the UK going bankrupt.

[king mob]

Just saw "The Stolen Earth" again, and damn! Sorry guys, but that was one hell of a first parter! When I first saw it, I remember squealing with joy. Now, even though I know what's going to happen next, I still found myself giddy and all flustered.
The moment that the mystery aliens send out their first message, I got massive chills! And that "To Be Continued" ending? FLIPPING AMAZING!

The Stolen Earth is rubbish, but it's fun rubbish and it's clear RTD is throwing whatever he can into it and gives the impression that it'll all be tied up neatly in Journey's End. Err, ummm, well, yes, we won't go into that argument again.

Great cliffhanger though, even if it is a huge cheat.

[Toku King]

Well, yeah, he was a different guy who just happened to look like her dead husband and vice versa.

Same characteristics as regular world Pete. Just different lifestyle.

[Toku King]

The Stolen Earth is rubbish, but it's fun rubbish and it's clear RTD is throwing whatever he can into it and gives the impression that it'll all be tied up neatly in Journey's End.

Yes, RTD did throw it all together, but it made sense and was really well done. Besides, "throwing it all together" is the most logical step in the series, and I would've been disappointed if they didn't do it.

[Stressfactor]

C'mon, for King Mob saying something is "fun rubbish" is a compliment.

Either way, a LOT of the people on here have said that they thought the first part of the two-parter was good. I thought it was good too. Nice tension, nice build up. It's just the SECOND part didn't quite pay-off on the promise of the first part.

[Tadhg]

In the novels it was revealed that the 7th Doctor killed off the 6th Doctor to make sure that the Valeyard never came to exist. Crafty bastard.

Later novels go against Love and War's implication. Spiral Scratch and Matrix are two that come to mind.

[Toku King]

C'mon, for King Mob saying something is "fun rubbish" is a compliment.

Either way, a LOT of the people on here have said that they thought the first part of the two-parter was good. I thought it was good too. Nice tension, nice build up. It's just the SECOND part didn't quite pay-off on the promise of the first part.

The second part had more Davros, so it was automatically awesome for me.

[Stressfactor]

I've got a question that perhaps an uber-fan who has read the books and listened to the audios can answer..... what was up with the 1st Doctor's ring?

He used it to open the TARDIS doors when there was no power in "The Web Planet" and obviously there was supposed to be some dialogue there to explain the ring's "special properties" but Hartnell blew the lines and I've never have heard what the script called for him to say.

Then he used it again to partially fix the TARDIS lock during "The Daleks Master Plan" after the Monk sabotaged the TARDIS lock.

Finally, watching "The War Machines" I've noticed that twice he gestured to the machines with the ring. He used it to hypnotize Dodo but considering that these are machines -- in fact the Doctor calls them "computers" I doubt he's trying to hypnotize them so....

In any of the outside media have we EVER gotten an explanation as what the Doctor's ring was supposed to be?

[Matt]

It was never explained in the TV series.
However, in the novels it was explained that the ring the 1st Doctor wore was originally worn by The Other and had certain properties (as seen in the TV series).

[SUPERECWFAN1]

The Space Museum

The Good- The Doctor , Ian , Barbara and Vicki land on a planet thats all dead except for a Space Museum . As soon as they land , Vicki and Ian experince missing time like dropping a glass and it doesn't shatter to not living foot prints in the dust.

Inside no one can see them and they can't make physical contact with anything. Then they see themselves used in the Museum and placed on Display. The 1st Doctor quickly diagnoses that the Tardis somehow jumped them into the 4th Dimension perhaps and what they see is their future unless they stop it !

Soon enough we learn that these are the Morok's who have gathered a lot of relics and placed in the museum. At one point the gang meets up with a Dalek on display. Later in funny spot the Hartnell Doctor hides inside and we get a cute scene of him imating a Dalek.

Then to show how cunning the 1st Doctor is , he gets caught and interrogated by a Morok . He uses the technology against him and shows how smart he is.

Barbara , Vicki and Ian are confused at what they can and should do to change the course of the future of ending up in those cases . Finally Ian says to hell with it...he's gonna fight not to end up like that and has a seen where he fights with one as Barbara and Vicki run !

Soon enough Vicki and Barbara meet up with the Xerons whose planet was conquered , made into a space Museum and the children forced in as space labor. Pretty hardcore as Vicki decides to help the children lead a revolution !

In the end the children over throw the Morok's and take back the planet. The 1st Doctor even gets a special machine he had his eyes on. The final sees the Dalek's chasing after the Doctor !

The Bad - There was little bad. I wish we could have seen something more of the battle the Xerons had taking back the planet. But its a small gripe.


OVERALL : ***** outt 5. The episode had a great hook from the 1st episode as the Doctor and his companions have to figure out how they could possibly end up in those cases as exhbits. Its a good episode and you see how smart the 1st Doctor is and how he really became a grumpy at times , good person.

[Typo Lad]

What's "The Other"?

[Tobias March]

What's "The Other"?

I wasn't sure myself, so I looked this up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Other_(Doctor_Who)

[darkwolf]

Ha ha on you. Rose is stuck in a universe that doesn't matter.

But she can always return, because how many times did the fabric between the dimensions failed? Look at Micky he's been there and return why not her ? IMO the problem with Journey's end was that second Doctor. It was all done just to appease the fans that wanted a happy ending between the Doctor and Rose.
And what about the Children of Time idea. Couldn't they become the next Time Lords or was just a title invented for the ocasion ? Let's face it some members of the team have powers - Jack is the Face of Bo, Rose saw the Tardis core and turned into Bad Wolf and Donna is half Time Lord.

[Asmith]

C'mon, for King Mob saying something is "fun rubbish" is a compliment.

Either way, a LOT of the people on here have said that they thought the first part of the two-parter was good. I thought it was good too. Nice tension, nice build up. It's just the SECOND part didn't quite pay-off on the promise of the first part.

I loved it all. Both first and second parts.

It had everything! Was it a little lumpy in story structure? Yep. But by gosh it was fun!

Really what more did people expect?? I thought it was brilliant.

I read the complaints and gripes and it's like hearing from people who didn't enjoy a rollercoaster because they were too focused on the scenery instead of the ride.

And as for that regeneration 'cheat'? What cheat?? It was a fun cliffhanger with a resolution that made you laugh. Not a cheat but a boon to the overall story!

[thehod]

And as for that regeneration 'cheat'? What cheat?? It was a fun cliffhanger with a resolution that made you laugh. Not a cheat but a boon to the overall story!

Don't get me wrong, I almost fell off the sofa at the end of the Stolen Earth, and Mrs Hod had to close my mouth for me. I couldn't say anything else other than a phrase that rhymes with "clucking bell" for the next ten minutes. My gob was well and truly smacked.

But it was a cheat.

"I'm regenerating."

"Actually, no I'm not. Despite me being utterly unable to contain or control my regenerations in the past, this time I can control it enough to stick all this energy in a handy dandy container I just happen to have lying about here."

It didn't ruin the story for me, but it did cause me to roll my eyes a little. That's harsh criticism in my house.

[Charles RB]

Out of the new companions the least interesting by a country mile.


Which I didn't mind so much in S1 because that was when everything was being set up, but making her super-mopey & clingy in S2 and constantly telling us "ROSE IS THE BEST THING EVER AND IMPORTANT" from Runaway Bride to The Next Doctor?! Piss off, RTD.


Really what more did people expect??

Good writing.

Also Davros doing something, a less idiotic resolution, and not doing that stupid Doctor-Donna thing that leads into a pointless "tragic ending" solely done to have a Tragic Ending but without the balls to kill anyone.

Oh, and not cheating on the "I'm regenerating!" cliffhanger so they can give Rose a "happy ending".

[thehod]

Rose, for me, is utterly selfish and self centred.

When the Doctor first offers to take her in the TARDIS (so to speak) she dumps her boyfriend there and then and goes with him. A bloke she's known for five minutes.

She doesn't tell anyone where she's gone, least of all her own Mum.

Anytime anyone else is even close to joining them, she throws a strop.

And that's without mentioning the events of Fathers Day.

Selfish, self involved, and self centred. Everything she does in those episodes she does, primarily, for herself.


Why she's held up as a great companion is beyond me.

[Stressfactor]

It was never explained in the TV series.
However, in the novels it was explained that the ring the 1st Doctor wore was originally worn by The Other and had certain properties (as seen in the TV series).I just wish we knew what some of these "special properties" were supposed to be.

[Charles RB]

Anytime anyone else is even close to joining them, she throws a strop.


That's the bit that gets on my nerves. It was bad enough when she acts pissed off that Mickey wants to join.

Then she gets all pissy in Stolen Earth because she's not on the subwave network and "oi, I was 'ere first!" and people are being killed as you speak for fuck's sake.

[Stressfactor]

That's the bit that gets on my nerves. It was bad enough when she acts pissed off that Mickey wants to join.

Then she gets all pissy in Stolen Earth because she's not on the subwave network and "oi, I was 'ere first!" and people are being killed as you speak for fuck's sake.Not to mention that several ways you wanna slice it Sarah Jane was there first. :tongue:

I have to admit, though, that Rose's dumping of Mickey always did strike me as a little harsh. I mean, he's freaking out (like you would expect nearly anyone to do) and her attitude towards him seemed really callous. Also, he WAS her boyfriend so running off with another bloke -- PLUS her attitude towards him when he wanted to travel with the Doctor too was pretty crappy.

Mickey didn't deserve the crap heaped on him and, really, when you look at 70's Doctor Who -- Harry Sullivan didn't really deserve a lot of the crap the Doctor heaped on him either.

I think the new series in particular really seems to have it in for male companions -- like they have to try to tear them down so that the Doctor gets to reign supreme.

[Charles RB]

I have to admit, though, that Rose's dumping of Mickey always did strike me as a little harsh. I mean, he's freaking out (like you would expect nearly anyone to do) and her attitude towards him seemed really callous. Also, he WAS her boyfriend so running off with another bloke

I can forgive it because it turned up in Aliens Of London when we find she actually fucked Mickey's life up doing that.

I think the new series in particular really seems to have it in for male companions -- like they have to try to tear them down so that the Doctor gets to reign supreme.

Nah.

It's mothers they've got it in for! :frown:

[king mob]

Did it ever.

Out of the new companions the least interesting by a country mile.

As Charles says she worked in the first series, mainly because it's a great hook of a character to have her essentially be as normal as any decent soap character. So she was a hook for new viewers, especially those in Who's target audience.

By series two though, she'd be horribly used as a moping idiot following the Doctor around to the detriment of the plot. Plus by this point the whole Tyler family thing really was as bad as Eastenders. It didn't help that Billie Piper had decided to not be as excellent as she was in series one for whatever reason, though she did shine in The Satan Pit and Doomsday.

And that includes the guy who went on a single trip and ended up with a trap door in his head.
Nah, Corrie boy was pish.

[king mob]

Also Davros doing something, a less idiotic resolution, and not doing that stupid Doctor-Donna thing that leads into a pointless "tragic ending" solely done to have a Tragic Ending but without the balls to kill anyone.


You forgot turning the Daleks into a parody of themselves (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=AWiq-0rf_bA).

[Charles RB]

Yeah, but I want to forget that.

[AlistairCrane]

So. The Talons of Weng-Chiang is one of the most racist things I've ever seen.

[AlistairCrane]

Not to mention that several ways you wanna slice it Sarah Jane was there first. :tongue:

I have to admit, though, that Rose's dumping of Mickey always did strike me as a little harsh. I mean, he's freaking out (like you would expect nearly anyone to do) and her attitude towards him seemed really callous. Also, he WAS her boyfriend so running off with another bloke -- PLUS her attitude towards him when he wanted to travel with the Doctor too was pretty crappy.

Mickey didn't deserve the crap heaped on him and, really, when you look at 70's Doctor Who -- Harry Sullivan didn't really deserve a lot of the crap the Doctor heaped on him either.

I think the new series in particular really seems to have it in for male companions -- like they have to try to tear them down so that the Doctor gets to reign supreme.

Mickey was always a stupid character. He shouldn't have come back in Journey's End.

[AlistairCrane]

I loved it all. Both first and second parts.

It had everything! Was it a little lumpy in story structure? Yep. But by gosh it was fun!

Really what more did people expect?? I thought it was brilliant.

I read the complaints and gripes and it's like hearing from people who didn't enjoy a rollercoaster because they were too focused on the scenery instead of the ride.

And as for that regeneration 'cheat'? What cheat?? It was a fun cliffhanger with a resolution that made you laugh. Not a cheat but a boon to the overall story!

Finally, someone who got it!! :biggrin: :biggrin: I knew there were more people like me out there!!

[Stressfactor]

So. The Talons of Weng-Chiang is one of the most racist things I've ever seen.It's kind of supposed to be. It's metatextual -- they are doing a Victorian story AS a Victorian story. In other words, they're taking a lot of stock Victorian characters and stock Victorian Tropes and using them as part of the story to craft a kind of "fictional" Victorian England. The kind of Victorian England that only appeared in books by writers like Sax Rhomer.

It's a little bit like what Alan Moore did with his "League of Extraordinary Gentlemen" stories. Except, admittedly, Alan Moore did it better. But, then again, he's Alan Moore.

While the use of a white actor as the character Chang is questionable even if they had cast an Asian actor in the role they would not have changed the story because it would have ruined the commentary. It's a bit of a send-up of Gilbert and Sullivan Musicals (check out "The Mikado" sometime) and Fu-Manchu stories.

[Matt]

Needs more giant rat.

[Doodle Bob]

It's kind of supposed to be. It's metatextual -- they are doing a Victorian story AS a Victorian story. In other words, they're taking a lot of stock Victorian characters and stock Victorian Tropes and using them as part of the story to craft a kind of "fictional" Victorian England. The kind of Victorian England that only appeared in books by writers like Sax Rhomer.

It's a little bit like what Alan Moore did with his "League of Extraordinary Gentlemen" stories. Except, admittedly, Alan Moore did it better. But, then again, he's Alan Moore.

While the use of a white actor as the character Chang is questionable even if they had cast an Asian actor in the role they would not have changed the story because it would have ruined the commentary. It's a bit of a send-up of Gilbert and Sullivan Musicals (check out "The Mikado" sometime) and Fu-Manchu stories.

I don't know... As much as I hate to agree with AC on anything and as much as I like this story, I have never gotten the impression that this story was actually meant to be ironic in any way. What is the evidence for that?

[darkwolf]

Mickey was always a stupid character. He shouldn't have come back in Journey's End.

Exactly. Mickey was just comedy relief and a bad one. People hate Rose but why ? For dumping Mickey for a guy she hardly knew ? Easy the Doctor offered a life of adventure, time travel and aliens and besides Martha Jones left her job and familly to do the same. People say Rose is self centered because she is jealous of every female friend the Doctor has, easy she's a woman, and don't forget Sarah Jane was jealous of her and so was Martha.
Rose had a boring life therefore she's boring, like Donna had a fascinating life.
Then people joke with the fact she went to a paralel universe. So what ? In Journey's End she looked like a grown badass woman, and even Mickey looked less idiotic. That time away did the characters some good.
Rose no matter what you people say, was a very important character. it was the first time we see the Doctor show human emotions, love, happiness and yes pissed off. She humanized him. And also you can't deny the chemistry between Tennant and Piper.

[thehod]

Sorry, ignore me.

I read it wrong.

[Charles RB]

For dumping Mickey for a guy she hardly knew ? Easy the Doctor offered a life of adventure, time travel and aliens

While her boyfriend, who she had none for years, was traumatised. She left him to wander around London, at night, alone, gibbering, in the aftermath of a major attack that had thrown the city into chaos.

That's horrible.

People say Rose is self centered because she is jealous of every female friend the Doctor has, easy she's a woman, and don't forget Sarah Jane was jealous of her and so was Martha.

Martha was jealous because the Doctor constantly brought up Rose and how great she was repeatedly, right to Martha's face - that would get annoying.

Shockingly, most women manage to go through life without freaking out that a male friend knows other women. If they didn't, they would not be able to function.


it was the first time we see the Doctor show human emotions, love, happiness and yes pissed off.

No it wasn't, he's been showing them since 1963.

[thehod]

While her boyfriend, who she had none for years, was traumatised. She left him to wander around London, at night, alone, gibbering, in the aftermath of a major attack that had thrown the city into chaos.

That's horrible.

Plus she had no idea how long she'd be gone. Oh sure, she may of realised later that the Dcotor could bring her back to that exact moment, but at the time? Didn't think about her family at all just, ohhh I'm off a-travelling with this enigmatic bloke who's old enough to be my father.

Martha is slighly different as, if I remember correctly, she only thought it was going to be one trip and then home; just a temporary thing. She can be forgiven for not letting anyone know where she was because she probably thought she be away for a night at most.

[Charles RB]

And she actually was, which was convinient for the Saxon plot!

[Stressfactor]

easy she's a woman, You know, as a woman I DO find this a little offensive.

I've NEVER been jealous of another woman and I've NEVER had another woman be jealous of me and I've never seen anything like this in any of my gal pals.

It's a stupid, stupid stereotype and RTD played right into it in "School Reunion". In fact, that's an aspect of that story that I found really weak because it IS such a stereotype and a lazy way of trying to create dramatic tension.

[Charles RB]

It's a stupid, stupid stereotype and RTD played right into it in "School Reunion". In fact, that's an aspect of that story that I found really weak because it IS such a stereotype and a lazy way of trying to create dramatic tension.

Ditto - especially as Sarah Jane knew the Doctor had, and would have, other companions. She even met some in The Five Doctors!

Martha and Donna meeting was far more realistic and fun (and/or shows they're better people than S2 Rose...).

[Stressfactor]

I don't know... As much as I hate to agree with AC on anything and as much as I like this story, I have never gotten the impression that this story was actually meant to be ironic in any way. What is the evidence for that?I don't know... As much as I hate to agree with AC on anything and as much as I like this story, I have never gotten the impression that this story was actually meant to be ironic in any way. What is the evidence for that?I wouldn't say "irony" so much as gentle satire. The writers took a number of familiar characters from Victorian Era literature to craft this "fictional" version of Victorian London. It was plunking "Doctor Who" down into the middle of Victorian Penny Dreadful.

For example:
The Doctor dresses like Sherlock Holmes throughout the story and Jago takes him to be a 'special detective' -- rather along the lines of Holmes. Added to this is the fact that Litefoot mentions that his housekeeper's name is Mrs. Hudson -- which is the name of Holmes and Watson's housekeeper.

Jago and Litefoot are characters much like one would see in a Gilbert and Sullivan Musical -- one the starch, kind and a little naive representative of the British Upper Class, the other a genial, likable, but slightly weseally soundrel who represents the British Lower Classes.

Of course Li-Hsang Chang and the Tong of the Black Scorpion and Magnus Greel represent the rampant late Victorian idea of "the Yellow Peril". Yes, it was racism, but all over late Victorian literature the fear of "the other" manifested itself in a tendency to cast Chinese as villains in plays and literature -- particularly cheap literature like penny dreadfuls and other serialized stories. Probably the most memorable example of this is a character of Fu Manchu. In Sax Rohmer's books Fu Manchu was always portrayed as the crime lord of the Limehouse District in London (and indeed we see Limehouse plays a role in "Talons of Weng-Chiang") and was considered a brilliant criminal mind. Indeed, at the ends of his stories he always escapes justice although his plans are thwarted. He has a group of followers who carry out his assisnations and other criminal acts (reflected in "Talons" as the Black Scorpion Cult) and he also favors poison (also seen in "Talons"), hypnosis, and hinted at 'occult powers' -- as we see Chang use hypnosis in "Talons" and the 'occult powers' of Magnus Greel are transformed into 'advanced science' for the purposes of "Doctor Who".

So, taking all of this in mind you can see where "Talons of Weng Chiang" was meant to be a pastiche of Victorian Popular Culture as well as a gentle parody of the same. By taking all of these elements and bringing them into a sci-fi series being broadcast in the modern 1970's it showed them as quaint, old-fashioned, and entirely divorced from the REAL Victorian London. At the same time, the story also paid tribute to the fact that, while these elements are rather "wrong" today (and I include in that the pastiches which are Jago and Litefoot) they were still the base on which a lot of modern fiction is built.

It's sort of like how the movie "Men in Black" managed to both parody/pastiche Alien and sci-fi movies while at the same time being one itself and paying tribute to that history of bad and old-fashioned Sci-Fi.

[AlistairCrane]

Exactly. Mickey was just comedy relief and a bad one. People hate Rose but why ? For dumping Mickey for a guy she hardly knew ? Easy the Doctor offered a life of adventure, time travel and aliens and besides Martha Jones left her job and familly to do the same. People say Rose is self centered because she is jealous of every female friend the Doctor has, easy she's a woman, and don't forget Sarah Jane was jealous of her and so was Martha.
Rose had a boring life therefore she's boring, like Donna had a fascinating life.
Then people joke with the fact she went to a paralel universe. So what ? In Journey's End she looked like a grown badass woman, and even Mickey looked less idiotic. That time away did the characters some good.
Rose no matter what you people say, was a very important character. it was the first time we see the Doctor show human emotions, love, happiness and yes pissed off. She humanized him. And also you can't deny the chemistry between Tennant and Piper.

Thank you! I agree with all of your points--however, I don't think Rose is jealous of other women, and even if she were, it's a little stereotypical to say that's because she's a woman. Rose is still and always will be the most important companion of the RTD era.

[Charles RB]

Apparently (http://www.shannonsullivan.com/drwho/serials/4s.html), the idea to use Sax Rohmer's trappings was Philip Hinchcliffe's.

[Stressfactor]

Apparently (http://www.shannonsullivan.com/drwho/serials/4s.html), the idea to use Sax Rohmer's trappings was Philip Hinchcliffe's.
I HAD forgotten about the "Jack the Ripper" and "Phantom of the Opera" references too.

But still -- the story was still meant to be both a tribute to late Victorian popular culture as well as a gentle parody of the same. If you look at it through that lens it doesn't seem as "racist". Of course, as I said, the decision to cast a white actor in "Asian" make-up for the Chang role was still a little dodgy.

[Charles RB]

Of course, as I said, the decision to cast a white actor in "Asian" make-up for the Chang role was still a little dodgy.

Bit more than a little dodgy, even for the late 70s!

[Stressfactor]

Bit more than a little dodgy, even for the late 70s!
Well, "Doctor Who" as a whole didn't have that good of a track record with minorities until the modern era if we want to be honest here. So what they did in "Talons" simply seems 'par for the course' (and not a good course mind you but par for it) to me.

I mean I cringe at "Vengeance on Varos" over the fact that Sil's two attendents/bodyguards are two big, mute, shirtless black guys. And "Tomb of the Cybermen"? Urg. I mean, it's kind of sad that it has some really, really GREAT Troughton lines in it and Troughton himself is really on top of the game but the character of Toberman? Yeeeaaahhhh that's bad. Really bad.

And keep in mind that there was hubub over casting Jonathan Pryce (a British white guy) and the Vietnamese character The Engineer in "Miss Saigon" in the late 1980's!

[Charles RB]

Well, "Doctor Who" as a whole didn't have that good of a track record with minorities until the modern era if we want to be honest here.

Yeah, IIRC it's not until the 80's (and a few years into it) that you start seeing non-whites appearing more frequently.

And yet the Who comics did a black female companion (Sharon (http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Sharon)) in 1979...

[king mob]

I don't know... As much as I hate to agree with AC on anything and as much as I like this story, I have never gotten the impression that this story was actually meant to be ironic in any way. What is the evidence for that?

It's not racist, but one has to put it into the context of the time it was made. The BBC still had The Black & White Minstrel Show (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_and_White_Minstrel_Show) as one of it's top rated programmes, It Ain't Half Hot Mum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_Ain%27t_Half_Hot_Mum)had actors blacked up speaking in comedy Indian accents even the brilliant Spike Milligan did Curry & Chips (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curry_and_Chips) which stands as a misguided blemish on his career.

However it's clear that Holmes & Hinchliffe were not racists, but were trying to do an old-fashioned Victorian gothic horror that the BBC is exceptionally good at. I don't think it's ironic, it's simply just trying to cram the cliches of such stories into Who & try as much as possible to rip off Sax Rohmer without being sued.

[Paul McEnery]

You know, as a woman I DO find this a little offensive.

I've NEVER been jealous of another woman and I've NEVER had another woman be jealous of me and I've never seen anything like this in any of my gal pals.

It's a stupid, stupid stereotype and RTD played right into it in "School Reunion". In fact, that's an aspect of that story that I found really weak because it IS such a stereotype and a lazy way of trying to create dramatic tension.

Ditto - especially as Sarah Jane knew the Doctor had, and would have, other companions. She even met some in The Five Doctors!

Martha and Donna meeting was far more realistic and fun (and/or shows they're better people than S2 Rose...).

I can't even believe this needs revisiting.

Yes, Rose was possessive of the Doctor and gave other women the hairy eyeball, but also wanted her old life out of her adventures and was a bit inconsiderate about it. How unlike a real world 20 year old that actually is. Never seen that in real life ever ever ever.

And yes, Sarah Jane still had some rotten feelings about being out of the Doctor's life. Shocking!

And yes, the two of them sized each other up, and quickly went for the political situation of making the Doctor unhappy instead. Which also never ever happens in real life.

Dear God.

[Matt]

I can't even believe this needs revisiting.

Yes, Rose was possessive of the Doctor and gave other women the hairy eyeball, but also wanted her old life out of her adventures and was a bit inconsiderate about it. How unlike a real world 20 year old that actually is. Never seen that in real life ever ever ever.

And yes, Sarah Jane still had some rotten feelings about being out of the Doctor's life. Shocking!

And yes, the two of them sized each other up, and quickly went for the political situation of making the Doctor unhappy instead. Which also never ever happens in real life.

Dear God.

The sarcasm force is strong in this one... Heh.

[AlistairCrane]

I think the people who don't like Rose are just jealous of her popularity among new fans, and they're also upset that she supposedly took airtime away from the Doctor. To which I say, that's kind of petty.

[Typo Lad]

I think the people who don't like Rose are just jealous of her popularity among new fans, and they're also upset that she supposedly took airtime away from the Doctor. To which I say, that's kind of petty.
That's an interesting theory.

I don't not like her. I just don't OH MY G-D AWESOME her like you seem to. 'zat okay?

I especially didn't like her in Journey's End. She just seemed... less tough than in season 1.

Although she was good in Turn Left.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

The few times I saw Rose I thought she was ok. I admit I'm sorta like the older ones here and feel Sarah Jane and the Doctor had developed a special relationship. You could tell he was gonna miss her since she had became closer to him than most companions.

[AlistairCrane]

I especially didn't like her in Journey's End. She just seemed... less tough than in season 1.

Although she was good in Turn Left.

I don't see what's not to like about her in Journey's End---she didn't really DO much to possibly not like. That's my only qualm with that episode. She kicked more ass in The Stolen Earth and her appearances leading up to the finale.

The fact that she figured out how to cross universes and showed up with weapons to fight the Daleks seemed to demonstrate to me that she's gotten even tougher in the alt world, working with UNIT and/or Torchwood.

However, she didn't get as tough as Martha, who was pretty much completely militarized by the end of Season Four. She almost blew up the world! On purpose!

[Typo Lad]

I don't see what's not to like about her in Journey's End---she didn't really DO much to possibly not like. That's my only qualm with that episode. She kicked more ass in The Stolen Earth and her appearances leading up to the finale.

I don't know. I think Turn Left worked so hard to show she was tough, and then we see her whining because she wasn't on the super-secret network? Completely ruined.

The fact that she figured out how to cross universes

Well, someone did. We don't know if it was her, per se.

and showed up with weapons to fight the Daleks seemed to demonstrate to me that she's gotten even tougher in the alt world, working with UNIT and/or Torchwood.

However, she didn't get as tough as Martha, who was pretty much completely militarized by the end of Season Four. She almost blew up the world! On purpose!

I liked that, believe it or not. If only because it showed Martha as willing to make a hard choice to stop the Daleks.

[AlistairCrane]

I don't know. I think Turn Left worked so hard to show she was tough, and then we see her whining because she wasn't on the super-secret network? Completely ruined.


Whining? Imagine how you would feel! Imagine if the person you cared about most in the world seemingly forgot all about you. That was a pretty heartbreaking scene.

Well, someone did. We don't know if it was her, per se.
In the context of the mythos, she's the most important person in that universe. It was her.



I liked that, believe it or not. If only because it showed Martha as willing to make a hard choice to stop the Daleks.

It was cool, but I'm glad she came to her senses by the end and decided to quit UNIT.

[Typo Lad]

Whining? Imagine how you would feel! Imagine if the person you cared about most in the world seemingly forgot all about you. That was a pretty heartbreaking scene.

Except he didn't, did he? I mean, Mr. Copper made it, not the Doctor.

Just felt ...off after the badass Rose-as-Doctor-analogue in Turn Left.

In the context of the mythos, she's the most important person in that universe. It was her.

That logic doesn't quite flow. Especially since she establishes herself that she's not the brains of the crew. Maybe she's the one who pushed for it, but the actual techie? I can't see that.

It was cool, but I'm glad she came to her senses by the end and decided to quit UNIT.

Well, Torchwood needed a Doctor.

Also, someone who hadn't shagged Jack yet.

[AlistairCrane]

Also, someone who hadn't shagged Jack yet.

Bite your tongue! Jack belongs to Ianto!

[Typo Lad]

Jack belongs to Jack, actually. I can't see him as a one-being sort of man.

Now Ianto? Totally Jack's.

[Stressfactor]

I can't even believe this needs revisiting.

Yes, Rose was possessive of the Doctor and gave other women the hairy eyeball, but also wanted her old life out of her adventures and was a bit inconsiderate about it. How unlike a real world 20 year old that actually is. Never seen that in real life ever ever ever.

And yes, Sarah Jane still had some rotten feelings about being out of the Doctor's life. Shocking!

And yes, the two of them sized each other up, and quickly went for the political situation of making the Doctor unhappy instead. Which also never ever happens in real life.

Dear God.
It was STILL a stereotype. Sort of like the 'effeminate gay man' stereotype. Now, are there people out there who match stereotypes? Well, yes, otherwise stereotypes wouldn't exist -- there is usually at least a grain of truth in most stereotypes (sometimes tiny grain, sometimes large grain, but grains nonethless).

But people get tired of seeing the sterotypes and the tropes. I have a hard and fast rule -- this goes for TV, movies and comic books -- if a writer is going to use a stereotype or a trope then they must do SOMETHING to add a twist to it. I took RTD to task over the 'just missing one another' bit the Doctor and Donna do in "Partners in Crime" -- I've seen that stupid schtick WAY too many times so ANY writer who wants to use it again had better do something with it to change it up.

I've seen FAR too much of this whole 'jealousy turns to freindship' stuff and I DON'T CARE if it has a 'real world' basis or not. It's been overused as a stereotype and there is lots more that can be done with it.

One of the things I liked about most of Joss Whedon's run on "Astonishing X-Men" was that you had this type of antagonism between Kitty Pryde and Emma Frost and you know what? They NEVER really buried the hatchet -- not until it was too late. Now that was a good way of subverting the stereotype. You think "oh, Emma will do something or say something that will get Kitty to warm up to her or vice versa" but nope, doesn't happen.

I think I would have actually appreciated RTD if he HAD left it there -- NOT have Rose and Sarah Jane bury the hatchet at the end -- that would have put a nice twist on that old trope.

Like I said, I don't like it when writers use these old, dusty things but if they're going to use them then I expect them to do more than just blow the dust off. Recycle it into something new!

[StoneGold]

Jack belongs to Jack, actually. I can't see him as a one-being sort of man.

Now Ianto? Totally Jack's.

In Dr. Who, yeah. His Torchwood characterization seemed a bit different.


In any event, I rather liked Donna as the companion simply for the lack of forced sexual tension. Kind of refreshing after all the moping about who might be fancying whom from the previous seasons.

[Stressfactor]

Aaand Hawkman battles the illegitimate love child of a Macra and a Zarbi.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_sr-EBSk3zig/SYi7H_hb2QI/AAAAAAAABVo/-AtpWMQW14g/s1600-h/Hawkman-Galactic-vengeance3.jpg

C'mon, don't tell me I'm the only one who thinks this.

[Charles RB]

I liked that, believe it or not. If only because it showed Martha as willing to make a hard choice to stop the Daleks.

Plus Earth was about to die anyway, so it's a bit hard for me to see it as that bad a thing she was going to do (it would've saved the entire rest of the universe!).

I think I would have actually appreciated RTD if he HAD left it there -- NOT have Rose and Sarah Jane bury the hatchet at the end -- that would have put a nice twist on that old trope.

That would've been more interesting (and, if we're talking realism, more realistic - why is screaming alien names at each other going to do shit?).

[king mob]

I succombed to getting the E-Space trilogy box set thanks to getting some gift vouchers. It's ok, nowhere near as poor as I remember it, Warrior's Gate is especially worth watching. I wouldn't spend 30 quid on it though.

[Stressfactor]

Ha! The people involved with the TNT series "Leverage" are Doctor Who geeks!!!! I love it.

In one episode one character complained that he almost missed "the last episode of Doctor Who" and in another episode two of the characters were running down a list of fake ID's they had on them. The lead Nate Ford (played by Timothy Hutton) rattles off: "I've got a Peter Davison, a Sylvester McCoy and a Tom Baker." To which another, female, member of his team replies: "I've got a Baker -- Sarah Jane."

[Charles RB]

Latest issue of Doctor Who Mag reports that K9 will be in the new Sarah Jane series as a regular.

Yayyyy! :smile:

[ChrisIII]

Lindsey Duncan (Rome, Star Wars) has been cast as a companion, perhaps the last one for Tennant (Smith's first?). Lindsey is best known in the USA for her role in HBO's Rome as Servilla, the spurned mistress of Julius Caeser.


Interestingly she's the oldest companion at this point (Unless you consider the older Sarah Jane and the audio's Evelyn Smythe, along with the Romanas, but I'm going by actresses's age), and I'm curious how that'll play out. If she stays along with Matt, maybe she'll sort of be a mother figure of some sort. If Georgia Moffat returns, will that mean a family dynamic in the TARDIS (Instead of the 'time team' stuff of the Eccleston/Tennant years).

[Stressfactor]

Interesting. I'm not familiar with her work (don't get HBO) but from her pictures she looks good for her age.

[king mob]

Duncan's a great choice & the timing of the announcement is obviously to drum up publicity for the rather good looking Margaret Thatcher film she's starring in this week.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Lindsey Duncan (Rome, Star Wars) has been cast as a companion, perhaps the last one for Tennant (Smith's first?). Lindsey is best known in the USA for her role in HBO's Rome as Servilla, the spurned mistress of Julius Caeser.


Interestingly she's the oldest companion at this point (Unless you consider the older Sarah Jane and the audio's Evelyn Smythe, along with the Romanas, but I'm going by actresses's age), and I'm curious how that'll play out. If she stays along with Matt, maybe she'll sort of be a mother figure of some sort. If Georgia Moffat returns, will that mean a family dynamic in the TARDIS (Instead of the 'time team' stuff of the Eccleston/Tennant years).

Interesting. I'm not familiar with her work (don't get HBO) but from her pictures she looks good for her age.

http://www.tv.com/lindsay-duncan/person/89093/viewer.html?ii=1&grti=104&gri=89093&om_act=convert&om_clk=photospsh&tag=pictures;image;0


Great choice I feel. She will bring an interesting dynamic to Doctor Who. I can't wait to see her in this. And yep...she looks great for her age.

[Wild Card]

I hope this isn't too far off topic but, I would like this to be real (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqR8A8ecKWo) or something like it. I mean a Classic Doctor in Anime (maybe without the over the top fighting and the super Cybermen) but still WOW!

[Captain Jim]

Lindsey Duncan (Rome, Star Wars) has been cast as a companion, perhaps the last one for Tennant (Smith's first?).

As soon as I read about this, I also wondered if she might carry over into the 5th series. I think it would be a good idea to have the new companion begin in the specials and carry over. That would give a least a bit of continuity from the one series to the next. Hopefully we'll see the regeneration, either in the final special or the first new episode. It would be nice if there was a companion there to witness it as well.

[Cyke]

I hope this isn't too far off topic but, I would like this to be real (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqR8A8ecKWo) or something like it. I mean a Classic Doctor in Anime (maybe without the over the top fighting and the super Cybermen) but still WOW!

Hey, if anyone was ever down for an over the top fight, it was the Third Doctor.

[Stressfactor]

I hope this isn't too far off topic but, I would like this to be real (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqR8A8ecKWo) or something like it. I mean a Classic Doctor in Anime (maybe without the over the top fighting and the super Cybermen) but still WOW!
That's actually kind of fun looking and overall, very well done. I like that they clipped snatches of dialogue from the episodes for the voices, that was clever.

The 3rd Doctor wasn't, perhaps, QUITE so violent but he definitely was one who knew how to put up a good fight.

[king mob]

As soon as I read about this, I also wondered if she might carry over into the 5th series. I think it would be a good idea to have the new companion begin in the specials and carry over. That would give a least a bit of continuity from the one series to the next. Hopefully we'll see the regeneration, either in the final special or the first new episode. It would be nice if there was a companion there to witness it as well.


She's in the Christmas special apparently & that's it for her. The regeneration is going to be in the last special which is rumoured for a early January 2010 (New Year's Day seems to be the hot rumour) broadcast.

Matt Smith starts filming in July, so I'd expect the line-up and broadcast dates for the specials to be confirmed by then.

[Charles RB]

Have learnt that The Stolen Earth was going to feature the Daleks destroying New York City but RTD backed out because the reset button could not be pressed & this would leave a mark on the future of the series.

Yeah, but Russell, you've been doing no-reset-button things since The Christmas Invasion - you have the Doctor say "there's no denying aliens now!" at the end of the episode for crap's sake - and always pressed the button anyway even when it was dumb. What stopped you this time?

[Captain Jim]

She's in the Christmas special apparently & that's it for her. The regeneration is going to be in the last special which is rumoured for a early January 2010 (New Year's Day seems to be the hot rumour) broadcast.


I thought the rumor was that the Christmas special was going to be continued into the New Years special.

[king mob]

I thought the rumor was that the Christmas special was going to be continued into the New Years special.

No, the Christmas special is a stand alone episode. The last two specials are connected & they're rumoured for a New Years Day broadcast.

[Ontir]

Have learnt that The Stolen Earth was going to feature the Daleks destroying New York City but RTD backed out because the reset button could not be pressed & this would leave a mark on the future of the series.

Yeah, but Russell, you've been doing no-reset-button things since The Christmas Invasion - you have the Doctor say "there's no denying aliens now!" at the end of the episode for crap's sake - and always pressed the button anyway even when it was dumb. What stopped you this time?

I think it was about not leaving something that Moffatt has to deal with. If NYC is destroyed, then Moffatt has to deal with an NYC that no longer exists. Personally, post-9/11, I'm glad Gotham wasn't hit again. It's had enough recently.

[Captain Jim]

No, the Christmas special is a stand alone episode. The last two specials are connected & they're rumoured for a New Years Day broadcast.

Both of them? I thought the Christmas Special was the next to the last one? Are you saying we get nothing between Easter and Christmas? That's crazy; these things are supposed to fill the gap in 2009. We get a new series in 2010, we don't need extra specials then.

[king mob]

Both of them? I thought the Christmas Special was the next to the last one? Are you saying we get nothing between Easter and Christmas? That's crazy; these things are supposed to fill the gap in 2009. We get a new series in 2010, we don't need extra specials then.

The original plan was to have a special for the August bank holiday/autumn but it's clear that the BBC want to milk the regeneration for everything they can get. So there's nothing between Easter & Christmas, then the final two specials are 'early January 2010'. Those ones will end with the regeneration and lead into series five which is due for broadcast in spring next year.

[Cyke]

The original plan was to have a special for the August bank holiday/autumn but it's clear that the BBC want to milk the regeneration for everything they can get. So there's nothing between Easter & Christmas, then the final two specials are 'early January 2010'. Those ones will end with the regeneration and lead into series five which is due for broadcast in spring next year.

Oh, dear, I don't think I can withstand a drought that lasts from Easter to Christmas.

[Charles RB]

Oh, dear, I don't think I can withstand a drought that lasts from Easter to Christmas.

Arg! Quick, to the spin-offs!

[Captain Jim]

Arg! Quick, to the spin-offs!

Easy for you to say. We still haven't seen the second series of Sarah Jane over in the States.

[Charles RB]

Well, I was also thinking of the books, comics and audios.

[Stressfactor]

Here's a little excersize while we're waiting for Easter...

I got to thinking about this the other day when I saw a website refer to the episode "Survival" as a "Series Finale". Of course we know now that this was just the start of a dormancy period since the series performed what amounted to a soft re-boot.

But anyway... Let's say, in the far flung future the day comes that DOCTOR WHO will be cancelled for good. No reprieve, no reboot, no lying dormant for a couple of years before being brought back -- no, this is the End. The absolute END of "Doctor Who".

Now, let's say that you (yes, YOU) have been assigned to come up with that final story -- the last "Doctor Who" episode ever.... How do you do it? What kind of story do you create? Do you give the good Doctor a happy send-off or a bittersweet one?

My idea?.........

The Doctor finally has a chance to restore Gallifrey and the Time Lords but to do so requires an object of immense power -- something more powerful even than the Key to Time. The Doctor succeeds in his mission but in the course of which the power it takes to set the universe back to rights overwhelms him and he is apparently destroyed. The Time Lords are aware of the Doctor's sacrifice and swear to honor him as a hero for all time.........

Elsewhere, elsewhen, the Doctor awakens in a white void and learns to his stunned surprise that he is.... the WHITE GUARDIAN and the BLACK GUARDIAN... and ALWAYS HAS BEEN. The power he absorbed sent him back to the dawn of time where his personality was purged -- all of his negative impulses were pulled out and became the Black Guardian while all of his positive impulses became the White Guardian. Now he stands at the center of the universe, keeping a benevolent eye on things and striving to maintain the balance between good and evil.

[Cyke]

Well, I was also thinking of the books, comics and audios.

The 10 Doctors online strip should keep me afloat, but for how long? HOW LONG?!?

*cue the electronic sting*

[Stressfactor]

The 10 Doctors online strip should keep me afloat, but for how long? HOW LONG?!?

*cue the electronic sting*Particularly since that story looks like it's drawing toward the big climax..... Dun-Dum-Duuuuuuuunnnnnnn!

[Deathstroke]

I got Series 4 of the show today...WHOOO HOOO!

[Captain Jim]

This made me laugh.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3487/3241649368_7bd8e47dbc_o.jpg

[Stressfactor]

[Melodramatic Voice]No, not "The Gunfighters"[/Melodramatic Voice]

And if anyone actually gets that reference... Well, Maybe I won't be too surprised all things considered.

[Charles RB]

"No, not the mind probe!" ?

(I'm still giggling after the time in the comic strips were Rose yelled "THERE SHOULD HAVE BEEN ANOTHER WAY!" when the Doctor had to snog Jackie. Now that's a reference!)

[Stressfactor]

Aaaannd Charles RB FTW. Yeah, I figured with all the mad Whovians who hang out here someone would get it.

[king mob]

The UK version of Law & Order featuring Freema Agyeman (who really needs to realise that her charm can't replace acting ability) and produced by Chris Chibnall started on ITV last night. It's bad. Not Demons bad, but it's fairly bad & utterly pointless.

[thehod]

The UK version of Law & Order featuring Freema Agyeman (who really needs to realise that her charm can't replace acting ability) and produced by Chris Chibnall started on ITV last night. It's bad. Not Demons bad, but it's fairly bad & utterly pointless.

I dunno, I rather enjoyed it.

It was utterly harmless, fairly easy viewing.

Its not as if there was a wealth of drama that was challenging it at the same time.

[Matt]

This made me laugh.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3487/3241649368_7bd8e47dbc_o.jpg

Ha! That is a good one.

[king mob]

I dunno, I rather enjoyed it.

It was utterly harmless, fairly easy viewing.

Its not as if there was a wealth of drama that was challenging it at the same time.

It's sad there isn't enough decent drama, though we do have Margaret (the Thatcher drama) on tonight, and the adapatation of the Red Riding books on C4 soon.

[king mob]

It looks as iff the Ood are coming back for the Christmas special. (http://www.denofgeek.com/television/210997/doctor_who_the_ood_are_back.html)

[Stressfactor]

You know what I thought the best part of that report was? The fact that they were filming in a quarry. :biggrin: Nothing like the show returning to it's roots, eh?

[Charles RB]

It looks as iff the Ood are coming back for the Christmas special. (http://www.denofgeek.com/television/210997/doctor_who_the_ood_are_back.html)

My first reaction was "yay!" but what can you do with them post-Planet?

[Captain Jim]

My first reaction was "yay!" but what can you do with them post-Planet?

Yeah, I kind of had the same thought.

[edhopper]

So I'm watching "The Produces" on HBO (Lane/Broderick version) and the big "Springtime for Hitler" number starts. And who do I see is the blond, Aryan singer belting out the song:

http://www.johnbarrowman.com/film/producers/jbtenor.jpg

[king mob]

My first reaction was "yay!" but what can you do with them post-Planet?

Indeed. It seems like a cheap option to reuse them when they've pretty much had their day after the poor Planet of the Ood. Still, it's a Christmas special so I'll be watching it pissed up on gin as usual.

As for the Easter special it's apparantly on either Easter Saturday or Monday.

[Paul McEnery]

Indeed. It seems like a cheap option to reuse them when they've pretty much had their day after the poor Planet of the Ood. Still, it's a Christmas special so I'll be watching it pissed up on gin as usual.

As for the Easter special it's apparantly on either Easter Saturday or Monday.

Presumably you mean Easter Eve.

Though personally, I'd prefer to see him regenerate Easter Day.

[Ontir]

So I'm watching "The Produces" on HBO (Lane/Broderick version) and the big "Springtime for Hitler" number starts. And who do I see is the blond, Aryan singer belting out the song:

http://www.johnbarrowman.com/film/producers/jbtenor.jpg

Love him in the film, but blonde he ain't!

I think it's going to be interesting to see a post-Planet Ood. We've only seen a neutered version of them before. Now we'll get to see true, un-cut Ood!

[Captain Jim]

According to that article, the only reason they think it's for the Christmas Special is because there's snow. I'm not sure that this is really good logic. There have been regular episodes with snow before--including the Planet of the Ood.

[Asmith]

I think it's going to be interesting to see a post-Planet Ood. We've only seen a neutered version of them before. Now we'll get to see true, un-cut Ood!

It would be nice to see them returned to being cannon fodder bad guys again... I just like em better that way. More fun than the 'love me, love my brain' hippies they got turned into...

[king mob]

According to that article, the only reason they think it's for the Christmas Special is because there's snow. I'm not sure that this is really good logic. There have been regular episodes with snow before--including the Planet of the Ood.


This is the second special due for broadcast on Christmas Day. The final two special don't start filming until April/May, then series five starts filming in July.

[ChrisIII]

According to the Mirror the console room will be redesigned for season five, and given a 'hi-tech' look to better suit the new HD resolution.

I'd actually like to see them go back to the white look, but with the scale of the new series. Also back to the more futuristic 'window' scanner instead of the 'laptop'.