Doctor Who *spoilers*

[Matt]

Oh, you mean like this!
http://k-punk.abstractdynamics.org/archives/Colin_Baker_2.jpg

No. That outfit just didn't fit in anywhere.

[Asmith]

No. That outfit just didn't fit in anywhere.

Ha. Has there ever been anyone, anywhere, that liked that outfit? Or even had a sense of humour about it? Even Colin Baker loathed it - which might certainly explain his sour disposition. I thought he looked like a grumpy kiddy-fiddler in it, so promptly stopped watching the show. Not even Perri's hot-pants were enough to keep me watching!

[Toku King]

This new doctor isn't just generating motherly concern in you, is he?

...I read that over and over, but I still don't know what the hell Asmith's talking about.

[darkhanamaru]

Well at least in his interview he sounds like he has something of a brain and that he is somewhat geeky. This should be interesting ....

[Toku King]

Well at least in his interview he sounds like he has something of a brain and that he is somewhat geeky. This should be interesting ....

Geeky? Brain? No. Cool and imaginative? Sure.

[Stressfactor]

who was it that said we needed a Father and Daughter to stumble into the Tardis ? And have the father who is in his 40's/50's question this young man over things he does. The Doctor could learn some things from this older person about life and being a parent.

I'd go there. And the interaction this could cause.
That would be me. I threw that idea out along with several others I'd had several pages back. Although I wouldn't say that the Doctor would learn so much about being a parent since he's been a father and a grandfather -- my idea was more that he would learn a bit more about human life through the eyes of the older father character (early to mid-40's and easy on the eyes as well) while conversely the father character would have trouble taking the Doctor seriously because of the dicotomy between the age the Doctor LOOKS vs. the age he actually IS.

That being said.... Am I the only one getting a slight Johnny Depp/Edward Scissorhands vibe off this guy? Not that that's a bad thing but it occurs to me tht could be another direction that could work well with his version of the Doctor -- a kind of Tim Burton-esque weird gothic.

[Matt]

Now he was the worst Doctor ever.

Quite possibly, though it should be noted clearly that it was not Colin Baker's fault. A few years ago I had the pleasure of seeing Baker perform on stage and quickly got to meet him face to face - his acting ability is far beyond what he was able to show in Doctor Who, that's for sure. He's also an incredibly nice man, more than happy to simply sit and chat casually with fans.

[Charles RB]

That'd be a path they've not done with the Doctor before - and it'd fit the rumours the BBC has tapped Neil Gaiman to do an ep...

[tricksterpup]

Cute? The first thought I had when I saw the photos was "Damn, that's one ugly dude."

I also hope that the photos are not what the 11th will actually be wearing in episodes. How incredibly ... dull.

It would be a hoot if its all a Red Herring and they switch the doctor on us on the very first episode. God, that would be Brilliant.

[Matt]

I'm interested in the rumour that the TARDIS interior would be different. Any word on that yet?

[tricksterpup]

Ok my girl friend walked in while I was watching the video and she said my god, he looks like a Bad Pop Star.

[Asmith]

...I read that over and over, but I still don't know what the hell Asmith's talking about.
I get that a lot...

I was implying that the actor was so young that he would generate in people a protective 'motherly concern' instinct towards himself.


It seemed funnier when I didn't explain it...

Well at least in his interview he sounds like he has something of a brain and that he is somewhat geeky. This should be interesting ....
Yep. Things are going to be very interesting either way. And from the looks of it I wouldn't be surprised if the excitement of today wasn't maintained for the next year or so till his first episode.

Ingenious bit of stunt casting. Four years into the show, when most series start feeling the heavy weight of viewer fatigue, and the producers have people just as excited as the months leading up to the first episode series one! And the damn thing we're so excited about is still over a year away. Now that's good marketing. Brilliant!

[Matt]

Ok my girl friend walked in while I was watching the video and she said my god, he looks like a Bad Pop Star.

Yes, I can see how that opinion might be reached. Have to agree with it a little myself.

[DonC]

Ok my girl friend walked in while I was watching the video and she said my god, he looks like a Bad Pop Star.


My first thought when I saw a picture of Smith was that he looks like a member of Duran Duran.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lv6Cr5LZStE&feature=related

[Stressfactor]

Re: The costume... I had been hoping for something that would be a mish-mash of 20th/21st century Earth with futuristic clothing -- showcasing the Doctor as someone who belongs to every time period.

I'd also been thinking that something a little sloppier might be fun. All of the Doctors really tended to at least be formal about their dress -- Tennant might occasionally go tie-less but the suit was always pressed and tidy. I was thinking like a Victorian silk vest but have him always wearing it unbuttoned. A 1950's style skinny tie but always having it tied loosely around his neck instead of neat and wrinkled cargo pants.... with TARDIS pockets of course :biggrin:


BTW: at 26, this guy is 9 years younger than me! Damn, now I feel old.

[Asmith]

I'm interested in the rumour that the TARDIS interior would be different. Any word on that yet?

I just watched the last four seasons during December. And by early fourth season I was thinking, I really love this interior - but I want a new one now...

I love the current organic one, and loved the victorian industrial one from the tele movie. Hell, I thought that autumnal brown version during Tom Baker's run was the bee's big toe. But I wouldn't mind seeing their version of the space age interior now.

[Asmith]

I'd also been thinking that something a little sloppier might be fun. All of the Doctors really tended to at least be formal about their dress -- Tennant might occasionally go tie-less but the suit was always pressed and tidy. I was thinking like a Victorian silk vest but have him always wearing it unbuttoned. A 1950's style skinny tie but always having it tied loosely around his neck instead of neat and wrinkled cargo pants.... with TARDIS pockets of course :biggrin:
That could work. Sound pretty good. Add a big university student wool coat over the top of that and I think it'd be pretty neat. But don't you just get the feeling from the press shots that they're going to keep him neat as a pin and an overly groomed GQ pretty boy?



BTW: at 26, this guy is 9 years younger than me! Damn, now I feel old.
I think most of my problems with the Who-Boy is that I'm old enough to be his father... y'know, if I was a really frisky 11yr old... which come to think of it...

[Justin D.]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bup3Q5EAQPw

I like how visual with his hands and all he is. If anything he's gonna be very animated with his gestures . I think he'll be fine. He's got that weird look with the hair and his gestures with his hands sell me.

Yeah, I have a lot more confidence in him just from seeing that short interview.

Maybe... The Doctor's Daughter, prehaps?! They could have pouting and perky compititions throughout time!

That would be great. They definitely set her character up to return, so we may see her in one of the specials. She could be the one who's there when the Doctor changes to his new incarnation.

After four years of it, I'd be quite glad if we didn't have it for a while.

Same here. Although, that was pretty much the point of Donna. She wasn't there for sexual tension at all. Like it was said in one of the early episodes with her (maybe the first of the last season), the Doctor wanted a mate to adventure with, not a maybe/maybe not girlfriend. Still, I'd love to see the Jenny (the Doctor's daughter) or a guy be his companion. Two guys roaming the cosmos together on adventures? Could be like an awesome, planet-hopping, time-traveling buddy cop show.

[Asmith]

Two guys roaming the cosmos together on adventures? Could be like an awesome, planet-hopping, time-traveling buddy cop show.

Yeh, I don't think they ever did that enough. Tom Baker's Doc always interacted rather well with his short time companion Harry, I thought. There was always a nice friendly 'alpha male' contest going on between the two of them that played well. It could be nice to see it again. Though if Capt. Jack is any indication, they have a hard time writing two men together on Who these days, without trying to shock us with supposedly outrageous homosexual inuendo. Which got boring pretty fast.

[king mob]

Doesn't make him an adult either. Well not one that brings a sense of natural gravitas through age.

Far too early to judge. I've sen glimpses of his work and his interview suggests he's very, very, prepared for this. Nothing so far suggests Moffat has fucked up.

And you're right, he may be great. We'll just have to wait. I just hope they change the tone of the show around him to suit. Make it lighter, less dark and more 'whizz-gosh'. I certainly hope they get a more youthful cast popping up around him - otherwise he might start looking silly. Can you imagine a scene between him and Sara Jane Smith... creepy.

It might work, it might not. We might never see a scene between both characters as Moffat seemingly wants to create his own mythology free of much of the old series, which means less guest appearances and less Daleks as the license has ran out and has apparently not been renewed.

But let's not forget the great thing about Dr Who... if you don't like the actor, just wait a little bit and they'll get you a new one.


Which is fine but remember the negativity over Tennant, especially from overseas fans who knew nothing of his work, before he started as the Doctor. Give the poor sod a chance.

[king mob]

I think it helps if you actually see him in action. If you just look at the pic and read out his age you tend to think "Hmm.....is this wise?" but after watching the confidential I'm pretty damn confident they can pull it off.

I was abit taken aback when he first appeared on screen. However, in the interview he was giving off a Doctorly vibe for me. There was one point in the interview, for example, where he reminded me of Patrick Troughton where he starts with the whole "Exciting....nerverwracking.....exciting! *wiggles fingers around* bit.

He seemed to have the Doctors eccentricity. And although he is young, he did portray the confidence, maturity, and authority you would want to see in the role (and I'm still not entirely sure how he did it....)

Dont right off the guy before you've seen him in action. And if you still have doubts, be content with this. In the confidential Moffat said he was planning on having an older Doctor because he thought David Tennent was a fluke and no young actor could portray the Doctors character as it should be. Then this young guy auditions and Moffet does a 360 degree turn and completely changes his mind. If he changed Moffets mind, I think we owe him a little bit of faith eh?


Indeed, I'd not heard his name til Rich Johnston stuck up on his Facebook updates that Smith had won the role. His interview on Confidential was good, and he's a bit scatty which is nice. Plus he's really, really keen on learning the history of the programme, which is great when one considers he was 8 when the orginal series finished so he hasn't been influenced by any Doctor previous to Eccleston probably. He may bring something totally new to the role, we shall have to wait and see.

[king mob]

Imagine this new lad being accompanied by Donna though, it would have been a bit odd I think. It'll be interesting to see what sort of character they do pair him up with. My cynical side thinks it will be a lass whoes a bit younger than he is and I expect she'll be easy on the eye.


A teenager would be the obvious choice because of Smith's age, and it would give Who's main audience someone to look up to. Though an older looking companion could work in a load of different ways.

[king mob]

I saw the comments at Yahoo about this. I'm embarrassed to even be a fan when I hear comments like "he's too ugly", "nobody can beat Tennant", "I wanted a black Who", "gay", and "he's too young". Seriously, this worries me about the type of Whovians this generation has.

It's sad to see him written off when he's only been confirmed for 6 hours, & only got the role just before Criggy. OG is melting with this sort of wank and it makes me pine of the days when the new Doctor was announced in The Sun and we all just got on with it.

[king mob]

Now he was the worst Doctor ever.


What was telling in Confindetials review of previous Doctor's was how little anyone involved [Moffatt, Tennant, RTD) had good to say about Colin Baker. McGann got more time and he only did 90 minutes of Who.

[king mob]

I thought his press release outfitting was a clever combination of Tennant's jacket and Eccleston's jumper. Sort of a visual message, sayin, "don't panic! see, he's just like the last two doctors you loved! Only he doesn't necessarily shave yet, is all..."


Or it could be something to do that it's the middle of winter and it's freezing.

[king mob]

That being said.... Am I the only one getting a slight Johnny Depp/Edward Scissorhands vibe off this guy? Not that that's a bad thing but it occurs to me tht could be another direction that could work well with his version of the Doctor -- a kind of Tim Burton-esque weird gothic.

From the hints being dropped that could well be an avenue they're going down, though that might just scare away a lot of the kids who make up the audience.

[king mob]

I'm interested in the rumour that the TARDIS interior would be different. Any word on that yet?

Nope,everything is the same until series 5 at least.

[king mob]

Ingenious bit of stunt casting. Four years into the show, when most series start feeling the heavy weight of viewer fatigue, and the producers have people just as excited as the months leading up to the first episode series one! And the damn thing we're so excited about is still over a year away. Now that's good marketing. Brilliant!

I wouldn't call it stunt casting; that's Kylie and Tate. It's a bloody huge risk that means that the programme lives or dies on the strength of Smith's acting, and if his CV is anything to go by then he should be able to cope with that.

However this has been blinding marketing from the BBC. To get thousands of people watching the announcement on big screens in freezing cold weather across the UK is nothing short of astonishing. To get this as the third or fourth item on news programmes outside the BBC is astonishing. Basically I can't remember a time when Who was so popular, or so well loved by the British people and that's really saying something.

[Toku King]

I just realized something: I know who should be the next Master! JEREMY IRONS!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/familyhistory/get_started/images/wdytya3_07_irons.jpg

[Mac Danny]

Where the hell are his Eyebrows??

Shave his head and he looks like Powder

[Stressfactor]

What was telling in Confindetials review of previous Doctor's was how little anyone involved [Moffatt, Tennant, RTD) had good to say about Colin Baker. McGann got more time and he only did 90 minutes of Who.

More and more I've come to see that Colin Baker really was more or less a victim of crappy writing and JN-T's micro-management. In the interview you hear Smith talk about getting to craft HIS version of the Doctor and, traditionally, that seems to have always been the way it was done -- the actor works in collaboration with the producer to put something together -- a bit of give and take but the actor DEFINITELY gets his say in the matter. While the more you hear of Colin Baker's tenure the more it seems HIS input was overridden by JN-T's 'vision' of the character. Even poor Nicola Bryant was subject to it -- she wanted to dress Peri as a typical American college student -- blue jeans, sneakers, and a sweatshirt -- but instead it was leotards, high heels, and shorts.

And then there was just the crap writing which focused on the Doctor-Peri bickering which is a true bloody shame because when you listen to the cast commentaries it is abundantly clear that Baker and Bryant got along well together and seem to have great chemistry together.

[Stressfactor]

From the hints being dropped that could well be an avenue they're going down, though that might just scare away a lot of the kids who make up the audience.
Oh, it doesn't have to be THAT scary. Burton's "Nightmare Before Christmas" and "The Corpse Bride" have juuuussst enough scary to give younger kids a shiver but not enough to creep them the hell out. As long as they stay on the kind of 'animated Burton' side of the line rather than the "Legend of Sleepy Hollow" side of the Burton line they should be okay.

Besides, as someone pointed out, Gaiman is doing an ep and he's done a couple of well-received children's books. One CAN do gothic without making it horror.

[king mob]

More and more I've come to see that Colin Baker really was more or less a victim of crappy writing and JN-T's micro-management. In the interview you hear Smith talk about getting to craft HIS version of the Doctor and, traditionally, that seems to have always been the way it was done -- the actor works in collaboration with the producer to put something together -- a bit of give and take but the actor DEFINITELY gets his say in the matter. While the more you hear of Colin Baker's tenure the more it seems HIS input was overridden by JN-T's 'vision' of the character. Even poor Nicola Bryant was subject to it -- she wanted to dress Peri as a typical American college student -- blue jeans, sneakers, and a sweatshirt -- but instead it was leotards, high heels, and shorts.

And then there was just the crap writing which focused on the Doctor-Peri bickering which is a true bloody shame because when you listen to the cast commentaries it is abundantly clear that Baker and Bryant got along well together and seem to have great chemistry together.


Well, both Baker and McCoy can say they've been on prime time telly twice in a week for the first time in years. Plus Nicola Bryant's clevage shot was featured on tonight's Confidential.

Colin Baker did get a crap deal but he really was poor, though with more of a chance he would have improved but by that time the programme was running on borrowed time.

[king mob]

Oh, it doesn't have to be THAT scary. Burton's "Nightmare Before Christmas" and "The Corpse Bride" have juuuussst enough scary to give younger kids a shiver but not enough to creep them the hell out. As long as they stay on the kind of 'animated Burton' side of the line rather than the "Legend of Sleepy Hollow" side of the Burton line they should be okay.

Indeed, and I doubt that Moffatt is going to do too much to alienate the core 6-18 audience.

Besides, as someone pointed out, Gaiman is doing an ep and he's done a couple of well-received children's books. One CAN do gothic without making it horror.

Gaiman's not confirmed yet. All we know about series 5 is that Moffatt is writing the first and last two episodes.

[king mob]

Someone has kindly uploaded the Proms programme from New Year's Day onto Youtube. (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=IxiukCLaIfI) Watch it quickly befire the Beeb take it down.

It's a complete joy to see so many kids lapping up the rather impressive spectacle, plus the scene with Tennant is stunningly uplifting.

[Ontir]

OK, so I've seen the 11th Doctor, and I hope he's good, but I really wasn't expecting the love-child of Tennant and Harry Potter. With Moffatt as showrunner, I'm sure it will be interesting, but I'm really a taken a bit back.

[Kirayoshi]

anyone seen any of that and can say if he did a good job there or not?I saw Ruby in the Smoke, and he was pretty decent in a supporting role.

Y'know who'd make a good companion for this guy? Sally Sparrow from "Blink". Although they'd have to explain the concept of regeneration to her.

[lonewolf23k]

Wasn't it stated at one point that there would officially be a theme of making the Doctor younger with each successive Regeneration, kind of like Arthurian Merlin aging backwards?

[Stressfactor]

Someone has kindly uploaded the Proms programme from New Year's Day onto Youtube. (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=IxiukCLaIfI) Watch it quickly befire the Beeb take it down.

It's a complete joy to see so many kids lapping up the rather impressive spectacle, plus the scene with Tennant is stunningly uplifting.

While it IS very nice it does remind me.... I've gotten a bit tired of Murray Gold's music too. New Doctor, new TARDIS interior.... could we get a new composer too please?

[Ontir]

I saw Ruby in the Smoke, and he was pretty decent in a supporting role.

Y'know who'd make a good companion for this guy? Sally Sparrow from "Blink". Although they'd have to explain the concept of regeneration to her.

No problem, just have the Doctor send her another set of Easter Eggs! I'd love to see Sally back, River too!

While I like the current TARDIS interior - far better than any from the old shows - I was glad they cut it down quite a bit from the over-large set from the Sylvester/McGann movie. As Moffatt had Davison explain, it's only a matter of changing the desktop theme. It would be cool to see Sally, or whoever the next companion is, mucking about and have everything suddenly altered, maybe blowing a circuit or something, so the Doctor can't change it back.

I like Murray Gold's more cinematic scoring, particularly with the added flourishes to the Season 4 theme. I don't necessarily want to see him go.

[Stony]

*tears up ticket-stub*
Why do you always break my heart like this, O'Toole...?


On the plus side though... Rich Johnston was WRONG!!!! baby!

[Stressfactor]

I like Murray Gold's more cinematic scoring, particularly with the added flourishes to the Season 4 theme. I don't necessarily want to see him go.

I'm not saying he's been bad -- but he's starting to sound very same-y. Hell, it happens to EVERY good composer sooner or later. I ADORE John Williams but his recent stuff has just felt like he's stealing a bar from something from one of the Star Wars movies then sticking it to a bar from Superman then sticking that to a bar from Harry Potter, etc. It's like I can listen to his music and pick out all his themes. I'm getting that way with Murray Gold too now and it distracts me from the scenes.

[Deathstroke]

Well I for one am surprised that they went with someone so young.

However, I'm waiting to see how he develops. I am not going to write him off before I see him.

[sneggz]

Or a different incarnation of River Song (Alex Kingston is too old to be paired with this Doctor).

The Doctor can't travel with his daughter--he needs to be with a (human) woman for the sexual chemistry.

Screw the sexual chemistry... Come on how goofy would it be this young looking guy with his 900+ years of experience teaching his daughter to be a Time Lord? I think it'd be badass.

I hope this guy sticks around, I like how animated he came off in that interview. But egads, what's with the emo haircut?

[AlistairCrane]

I hope this guy sticks around, I like how animated he came off in that interview. But egads, what's with the emo haircut?

It's 2009, emo's popular.

[AlistairCrane]

Only if you think sexual chemistry is a necessity. Most people don't.

I disagree. Every show, book, etc. needs a little romance.

[sneggz]

It's 2009, emo's popular.
Shoulder pads used to be popular too... doesn't make it any less of a crappy fashion.

[Tadhg]

I disagree. Every show, book, etc. needs a little romance.

And I have to disagree with that. EVERY is pretty broad, afterall. There's a lot of fiction that's worked without any romance or sexual chemistry.

[AlistairCrane]

And I have to disagree with that. EVERY is pretty broad, afterall. There's a lot of fiction that's worked without any romance or sexual chemistry.

Not for me. But then again, I consider myself a NuRomantic.

[noh-varr]

I really wanted Joseph to get the role. Regardless I'm going to be there since Mofatt is in charge, just more cautious then before.

So since we can't get River Song back (she said she had never seen the Doctor so young before and this guy is much younger then Tennent) can we please please PLEASE not have another female companion who is in love with the Doctor? He's young, hip, and sexy and all but please no romance with the companion. Got irritating with Rose, and it hurt Martha who was a great character besides that aspect.

[Tobias March]

I really wanted Joseph to get the role. Regardless I'm going to be there since Mofatt is in charge, just more cautious then before.

So since we can't get River Song back (she said she had never seen the Doctor so young before and this guy is much younger then Tennent) can we please please PLEASE not have another female companion who is in love with the Doctor? He's young, hip, and sexy and all but please no romance with the companion. Got irritating with Rose, and it hurt Martha who was a great character besides that aspect.

For all we know, when Tennant does his changeover scene - he might look real old. Maybe his Doctor has off-camera lived for many years and we meet him again he's as River last saw him.

It would be neat if Mofatt could keep it consistent with that idea. Or perhaps River recognizes him no matter what body he is in somehow?

[SUPERECWFAN1]

*tears up ticket-stub*
Why do you always break my heart like this, O'Toole...?


On the plus side though... Rich Johnston was WRONG!!!! baby!

Him and half the world to be honest with Joseph. But he did come on hours before the BBC annouced Matt Smith and named him as the guy. Thats pretty good.

Screw the sexual chemistry... Come on how goofy would it be this young looking guy with his 900+ years of experience teaching his daughter to be a Time Lord? I think it'd be badass.

I hope this guy sticks around, I like how animated he came off in that interview. But egads, what's with the emo haircut?

He can let his hair grow more out. I'd love to see a Doctor who has really out of control hair in a way. This way he can escape the emo label.

It's 2009, emo's popular.

So popular they get disdain from a lot of the public.

I disagree. Every show, book, etc. needs a little romance.

And I have to disagree with that. EVERY is pretty broad, afterall. There's a lot of fiction that's worked without any romance or sexual chemistry.

I agree with Tadhg. The original Doctor Who lasted 20+ years without that involving the main character.

The Doctor to me should never be romanticly involved. Sure his companions can flirt and hook up in a love story. But beyond that.... no. Thats why they had to do that out with Rose and the human clone of the Doctor.

The clone wasn't really the Doctor. Just a regular human copy. But they can't ecpect to keep using that each time. So I hope the Doctor is a being above that this time.

[darkwolf]

And the new Doctor is Matt Smith. They continue to pick young unknown actors, and IMO it's a good idea.

[king mob]

While it IS very nice it does remind me.... I've gotten a bit tired of Murray Gold's music too. New Doctor, new TARDIS interior.... could we get a new composer too please?

He's staying apparently.

[king mob]

And I have to disagree with that. EVERY is pretty broad, afterall. There's a lot of fiction that's worked without any romance or sexual chemistry.

Indeed, it's a very American concept to stick a romantic subplot into anything, but it needs to be given a break on Who as RTD rather overused it. Of course if Moffat makes one work then fair enough, but it should be used sparingly.

[king mob]

And the new Doctor is Matt Smith. They continue to pick young unknown actors, and IMO it's a good idea.

This is the first time since Tom Baker that they've picked a virtual unknown with very little on his CV that most people will have see.

[king mob]

The Guardian article on Smith features some interesting comments.

Doctor Who? After months of febrile speculation the BBC tonight revealed the identity of the 11th Doctor. Not a prominent black actor, nor a woman, nor any of the high-profile names touted to play the iconic Time Lord.

Instead, the honour of wielding the sonic screwdriver and battling Daleks and Zygons has fallen to relative unknown Matt Smith – at 26 he is the youngest Doctor in the 45 years since the Tardis first landed at the BBC.

Smith, from Northampton, whose TV debut was in the 2006 adaptation of Philip Pullman's The Ruby in the Smoke, which also starred former Doctor Who companion Billie Piper, said he was so excited at landing the coveted role he paced his room for three days smiling to himself. "I'm flabbergasted. I haven't slept, really, to be honest," he said.

His unveiling as the next extraterrestrial scientist came during Doctor Who Confidential – The Eleventh Doctor, broadcast on BBC1 at the same time as being simultaneously cast on giant screens in city centres all over Britain.

Smith will replace David Tennant, 37, who will leave after filming four specials, and take over the role in October 2010.

Doctor Who executive producer Steven Moffat said he knew he had found his Doctor at the start of auditions. "The way he said the lines, the way he looked, his hair. Everything was spot on," he said, praising Smith's dynamism and swagger.

Whovians, too, were impressed. "We think it is a great choice to have someone so young. David Tennant was the most energetic Doctor ever, and you need somebody with youth and energy to take that forward," said Sebastian Brook, editor of the drwho-online fan website.

Punters had tipped Paterson Joseph, one of the stars of the recent Survivors sci-fi series, and Golden Globe winner Chiwetel Ejiofor as contenders for the first black Doctor, while Catherine Tate and Catherine Zeta Jones had been suggested as female doctors.

But Matthew Sweet, cultural commentator and broadcaster, said: "The idea of a black or woman Doctor is something we only seem to be able to enjoy as a tease. When Tom Baker left, for example, there was speculation about Joanna Lumley taking over. There is a little part of me that's disappointed the Obama effect hasn't reached Gallifrey yet."

Sweet, a lifelong Doctor Who fan, added: "This was one of the best kept secrets. Matt Smith has got a fascinating face. It's long and bony, with a commanding jaw. He looks like someone who could have been in Duran Duran. He has a quality of the old man trapped in the young man's body.

"I suspect he might be a more sensual character than David Tennant, who had no kind of dangerous sexuality about him. There's something Byronic about Matt Smith – he's got the lips for it."

Sophie Aldred, who played companion Ace opposite Sylvester McCoy's Doctor, said: "I'm delighted. I'm so pleased that they haven't chosen a big name but gone with someone who's obviously a good actor but not well known to the public at large.

"He's got a very interesting face and a fantastic presence. It's going to be a difficult job to follow David Tennant, but I think he'll be a safe pair of hands."

Smith, a former headboy, took up acting after hopes of a professional football career were dashed by a back injury. He appeared in Alan Bennett's play The History Boys at the National Theatre in London, and in Swimming with Sharks in the West End. Two of the productions in which he featured – That Face and On the Shore of the Wide World – won Laurence Olivier Awards.

In 2007, he had a leading role in BBC2's political drama Party Animals, in which he played a parliamentary researcher.

Seemingly unphased by landing the Holy Grail of TV roles, or the challenge of playing a 903-year-old, Smith said: "I'm just so excited about the journey that is in front of me."

Piers Wenger, head of drama at BBC Wales, said: "With two hearts, a ferocious mind and over 900 years of experience behind him, it's not every 26-year-old actor who can take on the role like the Doctor but within moments of meeting Matt he showed the skill and imagination needed to create a Doctor all of his own."

Tennant, who announced he was leaving last year, said: "As I begin the end of my connection to all of this, I do feel a bit of jealousy of Matt who's just about to start and has got all of this ahead of him, and it's a very exciting journey to go on."


http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2009/jan/03/doctor-who-matt-smith

[king mob]

The News of the World provides lots of suitable hilarity.

http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/showbiz/116294/Who.html

Just think; he could have had a career as a professional footballer, eh lads, eh!! Phwoooaaaarrr, he shagged Billie as well lads, eh, eh!! Though that wasn't real....

[Tobias March]

The News of the World provides lots of suitable hilarity.

http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/showbiz/116294/Who.html

Just think; he could have had a career as a professional footballer, eh lads, eh!! Phwoooaaaarrr, he shagged Billie as well lads, eh, eh!! Though that wasn't real....

In Tabloidland everything is real....until you get sued.

[Stressfactor]

You know, it occurred to me last night who the PERFECT companion may be...... If they went with a teenager due to the Doctor being so young why not..................



Tommy Knight -- A.K.A. Sarah Jane's son, Luke.



By 2010 Knight would be, what? 16, 17, 18? He'd be the right age, it looks like he's turning into a good loking teenager, by the time 2010 rolls around the original younger demographic for the "Sarah Jane Adventures" would have graduated to "Doctor Who" so it would help pull them in, and the kid honestly does have a nice screen presence and charisma. On top of all of that, it would make sense story-wise -- tying in Sarah Jane's ultra-unique son who would probably welcome something of a father figure in his life and you would then have the fun/weird factor of the Doctor looking like Luke's older brother but playing a more fatherly role to the boy. As an added plus, you would have someone in the TARDIS nearly as mind-bashingly intelligent as the Doctor himself -- I could think of several funny scenes to work with that.

[Toku King]

Anyone who says that the Doctor needs sexual tension: Stop posting. Seriously, stop giving your input. We don't need anymore random romance, thank you very much. Why can't the Doctor just travel with a guy who's a buddy(like he did with Jaime), or even just his daughter? Why does it have to be a girl who gives him 'sexual tension'?

[Stressfactor]

C'mon, be nice. Alistair has been being civil and he's admitted to being a romantic.

Although, for me personally, I agree, I'm a bit tired of the romance angle and there are a lot of genres out there for "Doctor Who" to explore and many generes don't lend themselves well to romance. Noir for instance is not well known for its romance.

That reminds me, someone can correct me if I'm wrong but... Classic "Who" has done a western ("The Gunfighters"... sort-of), and they've done varying versions of 'Wetern in Space' ("The Space Pirates" for instance) and both new and Classic "Who" have tackled 'English Cozy Mysteries' (A.K.A. the style of authors like Agatha Christie and Dorothy Sayers) with episodes like "Black Orchid" and "The Unicorn and the Wasp" but I don't think the new or the classic series has attempted to tackle the noir style in any way, shape or form. Now THAT would be something fun to see....

[Charles RB]

I've gotten a bit tired of Murray Gold's music too. New Doctor, new TARDIS interior.... could we get a new composer too please?

YES PLEASE. Oh god, yes please...

He's staying apparently.

Piss. :frown:

[Toku King]

YES PLEASE. Oh god, yes please...

I like his music.

[Zero Hunter]

I don't know if I am sold on the new guy or not. I am going to have to see a few shows first. I do think he needs to cut the hair a little bit though it just looks pretty dumb as it is now.

[Stony]

Him and half the world to be honest with Joseph.
Oh please, half the world wouldn't have been there if Rich hadn't pulled it out of his gutters months ago

But he did come on hours before the BBC annouced Matt Smith and named him as the guy. Thats pretty good. .
Oooh! He got it within *hours*! Nostro-Rich-us!

[Tobias March]

I don't know if I am sold on the new guy or not. I am going to have to see a few shows first. I do think he needs to cut the hair a little bit though it just looks pretty dumb as it is now.

The man's got a whole year before he stands before the Whovian camera.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Oh please, half the world wouldn't have been there if Rich hadn't pulled it out of his gutters months ago

I really doubt Rich could have British bookies take bets on Joseph being the next Doctor. They ran with the fever as much as anyone. They didn't need Rich since it seemed to start there.


Oooh! He got it within *hours*! Nostro-Rich-us!

His source came pretty good. That was hours before anyone else and besides... did anyone know who Matt Smith was ? It was an unknown. Credit his source being right.

[rick]

I'm admitidly not thrilled to have such a young person playing the Doctor, but being the fan that I am, I will of course wait and see.

[Captain Jim]

Well, I don't know the guy from Adam, but I'm more than willing to give him a chance. It's always an big adjustment when they change actors. I wasn't sure what I'd think of Chris Eccleston at first, and then when he left, it took me several episodes before I liked Tennant better. Age is irrelevant IMO. If the guy can act and has the Doctor's quirkiness, I'm happy. Shame on those of you who who are putting him down (even mocking him in some cases) just because he's young, or isn't black. If Moffit went into this convinced that he wanted someone 40+, and then did a complete 180 degree turnaround when he saw this guy, that's good enough for me.

Incidentally, for anyone who hasn't seen the special Doctor Who Confidential: the Eleventh Doctor, I suggest you search it out on You Tube; I thought it was excellent.

As for potential companions, well, we had a love relationship with Rose, an unrequited love with Martha, and a platonic (emphatically not love) relationship with Donna, so how about a yet different situation?

Here's my idea - how about two companions for a change, a guy and a girl. How long's it been since we've seen one of those? Turlough and Tegan? (My memory's not clear, but we obviously haven't seen one since the original series. I don't count Rose and Micky, because Micky wasn't really a companion, other than the Girl in the Fireplace).

Anyway, my suggestion is Sally Sparrow and Larry Nightingale.

[Stressfactor]

Yeah, Tegan and Turlough were the last female-male companion team. They were also the last time the Doctor traveled with more than one companion. After them it was only Nicola Bryant as Peri with 6th, Bonnie Langford as Melanie Bush with 6th into 7 and Sophie Aldred as Ace for 7.

There have been some writers who complain about having to write for a 'large cast' and usually that is the reason given for keeping companion numbers low. Of course, it seems ridiculous for writers to complain about having to write for two companions back when the show was four (and longer) part serials. Now that it's 45 minute stand alone eps I imagine they would REALLY complain.

And for the record, I'm still advocating they graduate Tommy Knight as Luke Smith up from the "Sarah Jane Adventures".

[Captain Jim]

And for the record, I'm still advocating they graduate Tommy Knight as Luke Smith up from the "Sarah Jane Adventures".

That could be interesting, but I don't see it happening as long as SJA continues (which, I hope, is for a long time.)

[thehod]

If Mr Moffat fancies using any of our ideas for Season 5 (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=228760&highlight=doctor), I'm sure 10% would suffice.

[king mob]

His source came pretty good. That was hours before anyone else and besides... did anyone know who Matt Smith was ? It was an unknown. Credit his source being right.

To be fair to Rich he did post on his Facebook several hours before, but there was a huge surge in betting for Smith on Friday which suggests that a few people within the BBC made a nice little earner out of some insider knowledge. For those paying attention it was clear something was going on & obviously Rich was one of those who sussed it.

[Charles RB]

Here's my idea - how about two companions for a change, a guy and a girl. How long's it been since we've seen one of those? Turlough and Tegan?

If you're not counting Mickey and Rose, the last was Rose and Captain Jack in 2005.

[Stressfactor]

I'm not sure whether to count Jack or not. The character just always seemed so.... temporary... from the start.

I suppose that, since the show went to the 45 minute stand-alone episode format and with two of the recent companions only lasting one season each I've started to come to see "companions" as being those who last for a full season. Everyone else is a kind of 'quasi-companion'.

[Toku King]

I'm not sure whether to count Jack or not. The character just always seemed so.... temporary... from the start.

I suppose that, since the show went to the 45 minute stand-alone episode format and with two of the recent companions only lasting one season each I've started to come to see "companions" as being those who last for a full season. Everyone else is a kind of 'quasi-companion'.

Yeah, but I love Jack enough to call him a companion.

[Toku King]

WI wasn't sure what I'd think of Chris Eccleston at first, and then when he left, it took me several episodes before I liked Tennant better.

I'd put them on the same level of awesome.

[Captain Jim]

I've started to come to see "companions" as being those who last for a full season. Everyone else is a kind of 'quasi-companion'.

I agree. Nothing against Captain Jack; I like him (and Torchwood) just fine. But he was on the scene for far too short a time to be considered a companion, IMO.

[StoneGold]

Not being that well versed in Who-dom, is there a term then for short-term companions?

[Stressfactor]

Not being that well versed in Who-dom, is there a term then for short-term companions?
Not really because previously there really WEREN'T any short-term companions.

There were characters like Katarina from "The Myth Makers" and "The Daleks Master Plan" She showed up in the last few episodes of the Myth Makers and the first few episodes of the Daleks Master Plan and she was MEANT to be a companion but then after the writers had gone to the trouble of making the character to be a companion they found they didn't like the character so they killed her off.

Then there was Sarah Kingdom who also appeared in most of The Daleks Master Plan but then she died at the end (shame that because she would have made an AWESOME companion -- she was an asskicker when it was revolutionary for a female character to be an asskicker).

Most of the time, though, MOST (not all, but most) fans don't consider them companions because they only lasted a few episodes and only for a couple (pr one) story.

In fact, someone can correct me if I'm wrong but I think Sarah Kingdom, despite only lasting one story, actually had more episodes than Jack did with the Doctor!

As Captain Jim said -- I've got NOTHING against Jack Harkness but it just seems like the modern show has kind of created a more fluid definition of a companion.

There are some who consider Astrid Peth from "Voyage of the Damned" to be a companion too (although I don't for the simple matter that she only had one episode and never even got to travel in the TARDIS at all) but that seems to be really stretching the definition to include anyone who even WANTED to travel with the Doctor.

[Tadhg]

I'd count Jack. I mean, obviously the change in format has changed things. But he's been more involved with the Doctor and his travels than Liz Shaw or Mel, for example.

[Charles RB]

Some do count Sara Kingdom as a companion - I know I do.

Re Captain Jack, he's been in ten episodes with the Doctor and she's been in nine, so he just beats her.

[Cyke]

I'd count Jack and Mickey, only because 3 episodes seems to be the normal run if you're a male companion in nuWho.

I'd also count Adam, but only because I want there to be a companion who has the distinction to be the first kicked out for bad behavior.

[Matt]

So this raises that big question which gets asked every now and then.

Who, in your opinion, has been the best companion (best suited to their particular Doctor(s), best character attributes, etc) and why?

Personally, I think I'd have to go with the longest running companion of them all: The Brigadier.

[Stressfactor]

Jaime. But I'm biased. And technically, episode count wise Jamie was the longest serving companion.

In all seriousness, though, Jaime was the perfect companion for his Doctor -- he got and shared his Doctor's sense of humor and he was always there to back the Doctor up in a pinch. And the situations Jaime couldn't fight his way out of he was usually able to charm his way out of. He was also a quick study and overall fearless.

[Ontir]

Jamie, as previously stated.

Sarah Jane was just a great companion, and the only one who broke up with the Doctor.

Rose, because she's the one, not only that loved him, but was loved by him.

What I'd like to see in the next companion, particularly since we've now seen this very young "Doctor" on the way, is a guy who can, as the Brits say, be "a mate." Someone who just sees the Doctor not as an alien Time Lord, but a cool guy who's got the keys to the ultimate hot rod, and wants them to pick up chicks.

[AlistairCrane]

So this raises that big question which gets asked every now and then.

Who, in your opinion, has been the best companion (best suited to their particular Doctor(s), best character attributes, etc) and why?

Personally, I think I'd have to go with the longest running companion of them all: The Brigadier.

Rose. She complemented the Doctor well by providing him with some much-needed humanity in the wake of the Time War. And she captured his heart. Plus, her family was entertaining, and she just provided a nice touchstone for new/lapsed viewers who connect more with a real person than a Time Lord.

Martha was wonderful. She was more of a human Doctor than Donna--she took what she learned with the Doctor and actually used it at Torchwood and UNIT. She also knew better than to get too caught up in the Doctor's crazy and addictive lifestyle and walked away, which demonstrates the virtue of temperance (which is cool!).

And Astrid, just because she's Kylie. :wink:

[sandgrounder]

Adric. He was someone the Doctor could talk to on an intellectual level. And, of course, he died so that we all might live!!!
I can still see the end credits rolling, no music, and a close up of his gold star on the floor. DAMN YOU CYBERMEN!!!!!

[thehod]

Peri.

Cracking set of norks.

[berk]

I'm admitidly not thrilled to have such a young person playing the Doctor, but being the fan that I am, I will of course wait and see.Yeah, I'm a little sceptical. Makes me wonder if they're thinking of making other changes in an effort to appeal to a certain audience. And if they'll play up the romance angle even more with a Doctor with Hollywood-style looks. Was he Moffat's personal choice, I wonder? I suppose they're bound to say that, whatever the truth might be.

[Charles RB]

Who, in your opinion, has been the best companion

If the Brigadier counts, I'll go with him - he's got longitivity and dedication to back him up, as well as playing off well against the Doctor. And he actually travelled with an alternate Third Doctor in the Unbound audios...

Also I like the Ian/Barbara/Susan dynamic, who all worked well with the First Doctor and the former two were able to carry large swathes of episodes (The Aztecs is Barbara's story, Ian is the de facto male lead in scores of eps).

[Toku King]

Jamie, Brigadier, Rose, Sarah Jane Smith, Captain Jack Harkness, and so on.

[king mob]

Was he Moffat's personal choice, I wonder? I suppose they're bound to say that, whatever the truth might be.

He was. Moffat has enough clout within the BBC to pick whomever he liked. The Guardian has an interesting article on Party Animals (http://www.guardian.co.uk/culture/2009/jan/06/television-television), the programme that broke Smith.


Saturday's Confidential wiped out ITV's FA Cup coverage in the ratingshttp://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2009/jan/05/doctor-who-tvratings. Very impressive stuff.

[ChrisIII]

There's been some news of the new DVD releases over at OG. Perhaps most interesting is that they've done a color restoration job on Planet of the Daleks...


...and a thought, when do you think the Daleks, Cybermen, and the Master should return during Moffat's/Smith's series? I mean, Smith should at least meet the Daleks at some point, every Doctor has sans Mcgann (Although that was sort of fixed in WHO Expanded universe stuff).

[Charles RB]

The Daleks have had five stories in four years, let's give them a rest for a bit. Assuming Smith's doing three years, let's bring them back for his third or so.

[Matt]

I agree, the Daleks shouldn't be seen again for some time. They've been way over used in the past few years and have been reduced to a sort of joke (as seen Daleks in Manhatten, while their behaviour in Journey's End could really only be labelled as gross stupidity).

Cybermen ... much the same. Keep them out of the picture, preferably never show the Cybus Cybermen again. Re-envisage the class series Cybermen and go from there.

The Master is a trickier one. I'd certainly take the Master closer to his old cool, calm and really damn evil version rather than the manic one we last saw (just to act as a direct contrast to the manic behaviour of the Doctor). I'd probably have the Master seen working on building his own TARDIS and escaping the Doctor's attempts to stop him through a series of short confrontations.

The one villain I would like to see make a return is Omega, one of the pioneers of the Time Lord civilisation. There are many ways he could have escaped the destruction of the Time War and the dilemma his return would build would be great for the Doctor. Omega has many lost Time Lord secrets in his head, he built technology that later Time Lords simply forgot about and his loyalty to the ideals of the Time Lord race are still there. I would imagine his first goal, upon his return, would be to attempt to rebuild the Time Lord civilisation - just like he helped to do so very long ago.
That would force the Doctor to make some very difficult choices indeed.

[Toku King]

I agree, the Daleks shouldn't be seen again for some time. They've been way over used in the past few years and have been reduced to a sort of joke (as seen Daleks in Manhatten, while their behaviour in Journey's End could really only be labelled as gross stupidity).

I loved them in both appearances you listed. Still, I agree that they need to make some new arch enemies, and then go back to the classics.

Cybermen ... much the same. Keep them out of the picture, preferably never show the Cybus Cybermen again. Re-envisage the class series Cybermen and go from there.

Yeah, I really miss our dimension's Cyberman. And Moffat did make a hint that they're still around.

The Master is a trickier one. I'd certainly take the Master closer to his old cool, calm and really damn evil version rather than the manic one we last saw (just to act as a direct contrast to the manic behaviour of the Doctor). I'd probably have the Master seen working on building his own TARDIS and escaping the Doctor's attempts to stop him through a series of short confrontations.

I loved Derek Jacobi as the Master, and hope that they can find a way to bring him back? Wanna make the Master the complete opposite of the Doctor? Make him old, calm, and utterly vicious, just like in the Delgado/Ainly days. He's best like that.

The one villain I would like to see make a return is Omega, one of the pioneers of the Time Lord civilisation. There are many ways he could have escaped the destruction of the Time War and the dilemma his return would build would be great for the Doctor. Omega has many lost Time Lord secrets in his head, he built technology that later Time Lords simply forgot about and his loyalty to the ideals of the Time Lord race are still there. I would imagine his first goal, upon his return, would be to attempt to rebuild the Time Lord civilisation - just like he helped to do so very long ago.
That would force the Doctor to make some very difficult choices indeed.

Time War? Omega 'died' in "Arc Of Infinity". I say continue from there and say that the Matrix is still around(with Omega's data thrown across it), and Omega is being released from it by converting the data of Omega into dark matter energy.

[Charles RB]

I agree, the Daleks shouldn't be seen again for some time. They've been way over used in the past few years and have been reduced to a sort of joke

They've always had a good long rest after mass exposure too - six appearances in five years and the Dalekmania of the 60s, then they're absent for five years before appearing in five stories in four years, then absent for five years again. The 80s started spacing them out, three stories in a five-year span, which seems a more sensible way of doing it from now on.

preferably never show the Cybus Cybermen again. Re-envisage the class series Cybermen and go from there.

Definately agree. The concept's out there, shouldn't be too hard to bring in Mondas Cybermen (I'd argue they should've brought them in for the end of Series 2 - "you know about them and what they do, so here's even more dangerous ones!")

They could probably appear sooner than the Daleks though, they're not overdone yet.

The one villain I would like to see make a return is Omega, one of the pioneers of the Time Lord civilisation.

What I'd love is the Mara. As Midnight showed, that sort of threat is a real challenge for the Doctor - play it well and play up that you can't fight it conventionally, and it could be a pretty terrifying threat.

[Stressfactor]

I want to see the Celestial Toymaker. The Doctor was actually FRIGHTENED of the Toymaker's power and the Toymaker damn nearly beat the Doctor too.

Admittedly, Michael Gough is getting a bit long in the tooth but, since the Celestial Toymaker had infinite power and could create his entire environment there's nothing to say he couldn't change his appearance at a whim.

I also want to see the Doctor take on the Great Intelligent again -- maybe this time on an alien world instead of on Earth to show that the Intelligence has a long reach.

Wouldn't mind seeing more Eternals either.

[Captain Jim]

I agree with Matt; the daleks and cybermen should be given a rest, but I'm open to seeing more of the Master.

[Charles RB]

I want to see the Celestial Toymaker. The Doctor was actually FRIGHTENED of the Toymaker's power and the Toymaker damn nearly beat the Doctor too.

They should bring him back in the comics at least, he was a good first foil for the Eighth Doctor in DWM - and in the comics he has no budget restrains!

I also want to see the Doctor take on the Great Intelligent again

YES. Oh yes.

[ChrisIII]

The Great Intelligence could be interesting, I wonder how they'd redesign the Yeti (Probably use CG).


I also think the Autons might deserve another shot, as "Rose" didn't really use them that effectively compared to the seventies serials. (Then again Rose was preoccupied with introducing the Ninth Doctor, Rose, and the new supporting cast). Moffat's angels in "Blink" is similar to how an Auton serial might work.


BTW some details on the specials according to rumors and some press releases (Possible spoilers, highlight)

Planet of the Dead is likely to owe a bit to Gareth Robert's novel the Highest Science, in the same sense Next Doctor was sort of like the One Doctor. At least one of the specials will deal with UNIT and might feature the Brigidiar, and there is a possibilty that the Silurians and Sea devils might appear.

[king mob]

RTD has hinted in the past that he'd love to bring back the Sea Devils. Assuming the rumour is right, then it's more likely they'll appear in 2009's Christmas special to give everyone a big Criggy treat.

[Stressfactor]

Actually, I had this great story idea in my head for the return of the Great Intelligence.....

So London is excavating for a new Underground line and they decide to re-open one of the tunnels that had been blasted closed when UNIT had been dealing with the GI and the Yeti back in "The Web of Fear". So they start digging and they find this strange stuff so they call in an expert from the British Museum and said expert and his team uncover several artifacts and take them back to the museum for study. Among the objects is a broken control sphere. Not knowing what he is dealing with, the expert calls a buddy good with technology and the two of them accidentally get it working again -- although they don't realize it. They leave for the night and the control sphere starts sending out it's signal......


Cut to many months later. The Doctor and his companion seem to accidentally land in London (the Doctor had been aiming for somewhere and somewhen else but something seemed to go wrong with the TARDIS) on the eve of the new millenium -- Jaunary 1999. They decide to do some sightseeing and end up at the British Museum. While there the Doctor picks up some traces of something familiar but he can't put his finger on it....

He decides to investigate and he and his companion come back after the museum in closed. They run into assorted people -- a night security guard and a few employees staying late to finish assignments -- including the guy who first found the sphere. They also start finding themselves menaced by the imitation creatures from the displays and the fossils -- Bones of dinosaurs, stuffed replicas of saber toothed tigers and grey wolves and wild boar all start menacing (and sometimes killing) those trapped in the museum. It would seem the GI has given up on the Yeti and has now placed his control spheres in museum objects.

Of course one member of the Doctor's little group is under the control of the GI -- but which one (here's a hint: it won't be the obvious one)? Also, LAST time they met the GI wanted to take the Doctor's intelligence and make it part of itself. This time it wants REVENGE. It wants to destroy the Doctor and take from the last Time Lord all the secrets of time and space.

[Charles RB]

RTD has hinted in the past that he'd love to bring back the Sea Devils.

With the Silurians or on their own? (I prefer the Silurians myself, they got the cool eye thing...)

[Stressfactor]

Just so long as they give them some decent theme music! That crappy kazoo stuff just sucked all the threat out of them.

[AlistairCrane]

Anyone else thinks the TARDIS sounds like the beginning of Britney's "Womanizer"?

[Tadhg]

Anyone else thinks the TARDIS sounds like the beginning of Britney's "Womanizer"?

I went and listened to it and not at all.

[Ontir]

First off: Damn you Allistair! You made me listen to Britney Spears - and before 10am, too!

Second, no, the TARDIS sounds nothing like the song, and even if there were a similarity, it would be Britney who sounds like the TARDIS. It's like people claiming that Timberwolf is a rip-off of Wolverine, or that Mac OS is a rip-off of Windows.

Third, Tadhg, what's with the hammer & sickle Linux think as your avatar?

[Tadhg]

Third, Tadhg, what's with the hammer & sickle Linux think as your avatar?

Open Source = Communism.

[Karl H]

I thought that the Daleks weren't going to be used for a while as the licensing deal with the Nation estate had run its course for a while.

Or am I just making that up?

[Ontir]

I thought that the Daleks weren't going to be used for a while as the licensing deal with the Nation estate had run its course for a while.

Or am I just making that up?

That's what the Beeb announced. They'd not re-leased the Daleks from the Nation estate. That may mean, that they aren't going to be used during the shorter runs of "Who" and Torchwood" as Davies wraps up though, so no reason to pay for them, but that Moffatt will be able to do whatever when his season kicks off.

Tadhg, Communism was just a red herring!

[Stressfactor]

It wasn't that long ago that the BBC was talking about slashing budgets and ending shows and the worldwide economy has only gotten worse from there. From everything I've heard the Nation Estate charges an arm and a leg for the license so this may also be a cost cutting manouver.

It will be cheaper for Moffat and his writing team to create their own monsters (which the BBC will them own outright) than it will be to pay creators to use old ones.

[Charles RB]

It wasn't that long ago that the BBC was talking about slashing budgets

It did, as I recall. :frown:

From everything I've heard the Nation Estate charges an arm and a leg for the license so this may also be a cost cutting manouver.

Not sure - that would make sense, but the Daleks are ratings-winners and make the BBC a lot in DVD & merchandise sales.

[Ontir]

I think we've had enough Daleks for awhile now, and Moffatt has said he always thinks the Doctor is best when he's new, and wanted to bring in lots of new threats. Seems like a good idea to me.

[Stressfactor]

Not sure - that would make sense, but the Daleks are ratings-winners and make the BBC a lot in DVD & merchandise sales.

But how much of that merch money are they having to share with the Nation Estate? As opposed to creating a whole bunch of new monsters for the Doctor, at least one or two of which are bound to be popular, and which can go on to greater glory..... and merchandise.

Also, as fan here have proven, there are a LOT of Who villains which haven't been seen from in years and yet have a lot of popularity.

Ice Warriors with better production values! One of the results of the Time War could be to destroy their peaceful culture and return them to their conquering bad guy ways! The Doctor carries around yet MORE guilt because of it!

Silurians, Sea Devils, the Great Intelligence, the Celesital Toymaker, Telosian or Mondasian Cybermen, WOTAN! (It secretly fragmented its artifical intelligence and scattered it amongst various programs. As the military salvaged what they thought was safe from the project they actually allowed pieces of WOTAN to survive and it has been going on, always upgraded with each new advancement and each new piece of technology until it finally flies free into the web. There is slowly, slowly pieces itself back together and now is poised to turn all technology against humanity!), the Dominators come back with new and improved Quarks and this time they're badass instead of arguementative little wusses, the Axons, Metebelan Spiders, Zygons, Krynoid, the Mandragora Helix, the Rutans!, the Fendahl, I'd like to see someone do something with the Ogri, VAMPIRES!!, Terileptils, the Eternals, the Valyard,

[Mermaid]

yeah i'm over Daleks. We need more shows like Blink and The Library (or whatever it was called)

[king mob]

It wasn't that long ago that the BBC was talking about slashing budgets and ending shows and the worldwide economy has only gotten worse from there. From everything I've heard the Nation Estate charges an arm and a leg for the license so this may also be a cost cutting manouver.

There is an element of that as it's tougher for the BBC to account what they're spending our money on. Plus there's Moffat's comments about creating new monsters for a new generation of children.

It will be cheaper for Moffat and his writing team to create their own monsters (which the BBC will them own outright) than it will be to pay creators to use old ones.

Old monsters are going to still appear, but less frequently apparently.

[Charles RB]

Also, as fan here have proven, there are a LOT of Who villains which haven't been seen from in years and yet have a lot of popularity.

A lot of them are co-owned by other estates though. I think the majority are.

Admittedly they probably charge less than the Nation estate does.

[king mob]

It's worth pointing out that the BBC are on good terms with the Nation estate, and it was apparently the case that the rights to remake Survivors was part of the deal. It really is a case that Moffat wants the Daleks to have a rest, though there is a cost cutting feature as a result of this decision.

ITV has the second episode of it's Who rip off, Demons tonight. The first episode was terrible, especially the normally excellent Philip Glenister who had one of the worst American accents I've heard. It's terrible and could end up being a bit of a case of ITV getting it horribly, horribly wrong.

[Loki]

A lot of them are co-owned by other estates though. I think the majority are.


Anything that was created by a freelancer, including some of the companions (Nyssa for example) are co-owned, and thus the BBC has to pay to use them again. That's why you can have non-BBC-licensed spin-offs with certain monsters and characters. It's also probably a large part why Russell T was in charge of coming up with the basic story concepts for nearly all the episodes under his run - since he was a full-time staff member, anything he came up with is fully the BBC's property afaik, even if he then handed it to another writer to develop it into a finished story.

[Loki]

It's worth pointing out that the BBC are on good terms with the Nation estate

or Kate Nation (Terry's widow), as she prefers to be known outside of legal documents.

[Charles RB]

it was apparently the case that the rights to remake Survivors was part of the deal

Bet you wish it hadn't been... :frown:

ITV has the second episode of it's Who rip off, Demons tonight.

I heard it was a Buffy rip-off.

[Stressfactor]

A lot of them are co-owned by other estates though. I think the majority are.

Admittedly they probably charge less than the Nation estate does.
Oh, indubitably. I remember reading a while back about the BBC's early really quite generous rights. The BBC was better than, say, DC Comics. Any writer working for DC who creates a new character -- that character will be WHOLLY owned by DC.

In fact, there was supposed to be one more Great Intelligence/Yeti story for Patrick Troughton's tenure -- it was going to be the final story for the GI and it was going to write Jaime off the show as well but the BBC got into between the writers who owned the rights to the GI/Yeti and they wanted more money so the story got scrapped.

Still, one DOES have to assume that most writers or their estates would know that they're not going to get nearly as much as Nation and so be willing to bargain. Besides that, there is something else in it for them -- if they let their characters be used and the story is GOOD -- good to the point where it increases the visibility of their characters -- they can always re-negotiate when the license comes up and get more money.

[king mob]

I heard it was a Buffy rip-off.

Bit of Buffy, bit of Who, bit of Tomorrow People, bit of Quatermass, mainly a load of shite.

2009's DVD releases are more or less confirmed until the autumn, and they're wonderful. This month's E-Space trilogy is followed by a double set of The Rescue/The Romans next month, then Attack of the Cybermen in March. April should see the Dalek War set which contains Frontier in Space/Planet of the Daleks. May sees either Delta and the Bannermen or The Deadly Assassin (finally)., though somewhere in the schedule is The War Games, the Daemons and The Twin Dilemma.

They're still on course to have everything out on DVD by the end of 2012, though it looks as if they've done with Troughton and Colin Baker after this year. This leaves the big sellers (with the exception of the Hartnell stories still to be released) for the last few years worth of releases.

[Stressfactor]

though it looks as if they've done with Troughton and Colin Baker after this year.
Ut, ut, ut.... they've still got to do SOMETHING with "Ice Warriors". It wasn't included on the "Lost in Time" Troughton Years DVD.........


GIMME COSGROVE HALL!!!!!!

[Stressfactor]

Alright, I'm seeing a lot of rumors about the Nimon for one of the specials.... the NIMON?!?!?!?! "Horns of the Nimon" is only good if you are drunk (or seriously tipsy at least) and treat it like an episode of MST3K.......

Or if you're THIS person: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-8np3aw-Cw

And then there are the Zarbi rumors.... Admittedly, "The Web Planet" had some good ideas behind it it was just hampered by the special effects of the time and the short-shrift budget from the BBC.

[Matt]

Gah. The Nimon were just plain embarrassing.

[ChrisIII]

Could work out-after all, they did do a decent update of another lesser-known monster, the Macra.

[Stressfactor]

Yeah, but the basic story around the Macra was good and the Macra, as an entity, was only ruined by a poor budget.

Around the time of "The Horns of Nimon" the show had already proven it could do some nicely creepy monsters on a limited budget. AND the basic story behind "The Horns of Nimon" was.... well.... we'll be kind and say played for laughs.

[king mob]

Ut, ut, ut.... they've still got to do SOMETHING with "Ice Warriors". It wasn't included on the "Lost in Time" Troughton Years DVD.........


GIMME COSGROVE HALL!!!!!!

Well it was going through the same treatment as The Invasion til the BBC/2Entertain pulled the budget due to lack of sales. It doesn't seem likely that the budget will be found considering that 2Entertain nearly went out of buisness last month, the BBC are broke.

Though there's also the question of what the BBC intends to do with The Tenth Planet...

[Pariah74]

I went and listened to it and not at all.

Actually my dishwasher sounds like the Tardis...or the Tardis sounds like my dishwasher, it's hard to say which one has been around longer! :biggrin:

[Charles RB]

Well it was going through the same treatment as The Invasion til the BBC/2Entertain pulled the budget due to lack of sales.

The Invasion had a lack of sales?! The first ever UNIT story and the Cybermen and a high-concept plot, and they couldn't sell it?!

[ChrisIII]

The Keys of Marinus has been confirmed for a 2009 DVD release.


That leaves about half a dozen complete Hartnells to go, I believe-

The Sensorites
Planet of Giants
The Space Museum
The Chase
The Ark
The Gunfighters

Although there are a few almost-complete Hartnells such as Tenth Planet that weren't on the Lost In Time set.

[king mob]

The Invasion had a lack of sales?! The first ever UNIT story and the Cybermen and a high-concept plot, and they couldn't sell it?!
Troughton's are poor sellers anyhow, but it's not as low as Colin Baker/MCoy.

The problem was that the DVD never made back the higher budget for the project, so the BBC binned future plans to do the same with The Ice Warriors.

[Charles RB]

Troughton's are poor sellers

Are they? Bleurgh. :frown:

[Wolf-Man]

Not sure if you've seen this- the aussies probably have.

It's a guy from a show called The Chaser doing a Dr Who song.

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=0s95Mm0cFqg

Its funny.

[king mob]

Are they? Bleurgh. :frown:


Compared to Tom Baker, Pertwee & Davison, yes.

[Stressfactor]

Compared to Tom Baker, Pertwee & Davison, yes.

There's no accounting for taste...... :tongue:


Even so -- it still means that SOMETHING must be done with both "The Ice Warriors" and "The Tenth Planet" -- either they will have to do a "Lost in Time II" or they will have to release them like they did for the videotape version -- with condensed audio recreations for the missing eps -- or they will have to find the funding from SOMEWHERE to go for the Cosgrove Hall animation fixes.

[Charles RB]

they will have to find the funding from SOMEWHERE to go for the Cosgrove Hall animation fixes.

Reduce Johnathan Ross's wages.

Suddenly, massive funding!

[Stressfactor]

Reduce Johnathan Ross's wages.

Suddenly, massive funding!
Okay, Rich Johnston had a big joke about this guy in his New Years Lying in the Gutters.... For those of us who are Yanks without access to BBC America even..... Who is this guy and what's the deal with him?

[king mob]

Okay, Rich Johnston had a big joke about this guy in his New Years Lying in the Gutters.... For those of us who are Yanks without access to BBC America even..... Who is this guy and what's the deal with him?

Rossy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Ross)is one of our best known chat show hosts & has been around since the mid 80's when he started on Channel 4. He's been with the BBC for about a decade or so & is the corporation's highest paid star, which is highly controversial when the BBC is funded by public money, but he's got a top rated BBC One chat show, a Radio 2 programme that's hugely listenable

So when he appeared on Russel Brand's Radio 2 programme and took part in a series of prank calls to Andrew Sachs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell_Brand_Show_prank_telephone_calls_row), he ended up being suspended after a huge fuss created by the Daily Mail. It was a complete nonsense but it succeeded in making a weakened BBC seem weaker.

Rossy is also a huge comic collector and a massive geek. Anyone who's been involved in British comic fandom over the last 25 years will know him to be an incredibly nice, and genuinely funny bloke. He's tried to promote comics on mainstream telly since he started: he tried to get Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons on his Channel 4 chat show in the mid 80's in order to promote Watchmen, he's brought out bits of his comic collection on his BBC One programme constantly, he's confused guests when talking to them about comics (Alan Cumming was on to promote X Men 2 and looked bemused at Rossy giving him a history of Nightcrawler), plus he's able to make it all a big load of fun.

He's also presented a few award ceremonies at British conventions, and has had a Doctor Strange cover specially drawn for him by Joe Quesada. He also presented an excellent documentary about Steve Ditko (http://www.dograt.com/category/cartooning/comic-books/in-search-of-steve-ditko/page/2/) (apparently commisioned after Damon Albarn questioned Rossy as to why he'd never bothered making a programme about comics when it was his main love in life) on BBC Four.

That's the jist of him really. He's a bit of an institution.

[Stressfactor]

Ah. Thanks muchly for the clarification.

[Charles RB]

Specifically, the calls made to Sachs were telling him Brand fucking Sachs' grand-daughter.

(Which he had, which stunned me because no woman could ever get that desperate)

[king mob]

Yes, but she made a nice little profit out of the whole fiasco.

[Charles RB]

Good for her.

The thing that really narked me off with the whole thing was not them getting suspended and not so much the media furor (which did nark me off but at this point I expect non-BBC press to aggressively go for it) - it was when the fucking Prime Minister himself made a statement condemning it.

Why the fuck is the Prime Minister getting involved? It wasn't a slow time politically, he had a lot of stuff he should be doing. It's almost like he cynically wanted to keep media attention on that and away from him & Labour, and why did I even put "it's almost like" on this sentence?

[AlistairCrane]

I'm finally weighing in on Matt Smith:

From the looks of him, I like him. First, he has fabulous hair like David Tennant, so that's a plus. Second, his youth is a good thing. It will open up plot lines that couldn't be told with older actors. Also, the split between the wise old Doctor in a young body could be interesting. As I've read, the Doctor becomes a little bit more clueless with each Regeneration, so they could play up this angle by making the Doctor a tad less experienced. Well, not less experienced, but perhaps the Daleks could get one over on him every now and then.

Meanwhile, Billie Piper has thrown in her support for Matt Smith. Not sure if you guys have seen the interview yet, but I can post it if you haven't.

[Stressfactor]

I wouldn't say that the Doctor gets more "clueless" with each regeneration... Seven was the MOST manipulative, deceitful, crafty bastard you could meet.

Now, if you're talking immediately after regeneration well, yes, that DOES seem to be getting worse with each regeneration but that doesn't seem to last very long.

As for stories that could be told because the Doctor is you *shrugs* keep in mind that Peter Davison was 29 when he was announced as the Doctor and only 30 when he took over the role and God knows with that baby face he used to have he could have passed for 25. They often DID play up the 'old soul in a young man's body' during Davison's reign.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Dear lord I'm watching the 1st Colin Baker , Doctor story "The Twin Dilemma" and I can understand what many said about the guy. I can see that Baker wanted to do more of that 1st Doctor's arrogance in a way . The whole mocking and getting after his companion (Peri) here.

But where as under all that bluster and arrogance , Hartnell's eyes showed a caring old man who really loved the company. That they allowed him to open himself up and explain himself a lot.

Thus far the 1st episode has me wondering ...jeeze guys... turn off the arrogance. Its a wonder Peri doesn't run from this dude.


I also saw a lot of Davison's , Doctor before this. I saw Ardic bite the bullet . Pretty sad end as in his story he discussed going home. To sadly only die later in the story. (Did they write him out for basically being such a little asshole they pleased fans ?)

And the last connection to the Tom Baker , Doctor was the companion Neesa. Sad to see her exit was such a lackluster turd she got left on a ship taking care of people who had the plague.


In the end after seeing so many Davison stories I gotta say the magic was slowly easin out. Tom Baker left such a mark on the character I found it hard to get into this doctor. And thus far Colin Baker isn't workin 1 episode in.

[Stressfactor]

Yeah. Colin Baker as an actor is a MUCH nicer guy than his Doctor. And screw Peri running away -- she should have DECKED the guy for half the stuff he says.

When you watch "The Two Doctors" though there is a GREAT bit that seemed to get past ALL of the censors...... In the scene when the Doctor and Peri and back in the TARDIS having gotten off of the space station -- just before Jamie comes out of the back in his new clothes -- the Doctor puts down Peri saying something about if "You humans would just use your heads more..." and he pats her on the head. Well, Peri is not totally out of frame and she very, very, VERY clearly mouths the word "Asshole" behind the Doctor's back.

Would that she had been able to say the word aloud because fans for decades have been thinking it nearly every time they've watched the 6th Doctor.


As for Adric getting written out.... It's a bit complicated.... Producer Jonathan Nathan-Turner had boosted up the companion cast to three in order to try to help Peter Davison settle into the role of the Doctor and hopefully help the audience get used to him as well by having a lot of familiar faces around in the form of more established companions. Once Davison got settled, though, J N-T fully intended to start reducing the cast.

According to one story he originally wanted the character of Nyssa to leave first but Davison liked working with actress Sarah Sutton and he also thought her character of Nyssa had a lot of potential and he plain liked the character too. It was at that point that it was decided then to jettison Adric. Poor Matthew Waterhouse suffered quite a bit from having been a VERY raw, green actor. He hadn't really done ANYTHING before being cast on the show and he pretty much learned whatever he learned about acting from being on the show and that wasn't much because often the cast and crew were just too busy to take him aside and teach him stuff.

A guy like Waterhouse probably would have been better served working with an actor like Patrick Troughton. By all accounts, Troughton went out of his way to help younger actors or newbie actors find their footing.

Waterhouse was also, reportedly, very upset at the idea of killing the character of Adric off because he knew that it meant he could never come back to the show for any guest appearances.

[king mob]

Good for her.

The thing that really narked me off with the whole thing was not them getting suspended and not so much the media furor (which did nark me off but at this point I expect non-BBC press to aggressively go for it) - it was when the fucking Prime Minister himself made a statement condemning it.

Why the fuck is the Prime Minister getting involved? It wasn't a slow time politically, he had a lot of stuff he should be doing. It's almost like he cynically wanted to keep media attention on that and away from him & Labour, and why did I even put "it's almost like" on this sentence?

Ah, but did you see him commenting on the X Factor winner & how he loved her version of Halleujah, & how he would be buying a copy for Christmas.

Brown obviously watches his daily Zeitgeist video tape briefing like a good boy.

[king mob]

Yeah. Colin Baker as an actor is a MUCH nicer guy than his Doctor. And screw Peri running away -- she should have DECKED the guy for half the stuff he says.

When you watch "The Two Doctors" though there is a GREAT bit that seemed to get past ALL of the censors...... In the scene when the Doctor and Peri and back in the TARDIS having gotten off of the space station -- just before Jamie comes out of the back in his new clothes -- the Doctor puts down Peri saying something about if "You humans would just use your heads more..." and he pats her on the head. Well, Peri is not totally out of frame and she very, very, VERY clearly mouths the word "Asshole" behind the Doctor's back.

There's a lot of stuff in The Two Doctors that I'm astounded that it got past JNT, let alone end up for a teatime audience. If the scene of Shockeye killing Oscar wasn't vicious enough, seeing Colin Baker's Doctor murder Shockeye was pretty harsh.
It's an exceptionally hard and bloodthirsty Robert Holmes script, which is by no means his best script but one wonders whether he wrote it so to piss off JNT and Eric Saward.

[Charles RB]

Big Finish's subscribers-exclusive audio this year is going to be the Eighth Doctor meeting Susan on post-Dalek Earth - and her son. (Who's played by McGann's son!)

Subscribe, subscribe!


But where as under all that bluster and arrogance , Hartnell's eyes showed a caring old man who really loved the company.

That said, Nicholas Courtney has an anecdote about working with Hartnell and being completely stunned when Hartnell pointed to a crewmember and muttered darkly "He's a Jew, you know...".


Waterhouse was also, reportedly, very upset at the idea of killing the character of Adric off

He was.

He didn't like doing the cameo for Peter's regeneration though, because it made it obvious to everyone that he was out of work!


Brown obviously watches his daily Zeitgeist video tape briefing like a good boy.

He recently said he wanted Optimus Prime as a consultant cos he seems to solve things easily.

(The Conservatives immediately responded "Brown has more in common with the Decepticons", which is not something you expect to ever hear the opposition say...)


It's an exceptionally hard and bloodthirsty Robert Holmes script, which is by no means his best script but one wonders whether he wrote it so to piss off JNT and Eric Saward.

He was fed up with having the foreign location dumped on him and then changed repeatedly, so it could be.

[Stressfactor]

I forget who but someone involved in the story was also a pretty strong vegetarian and the whole script was supposed to be about food, eating, and basically anti-meat so being a vegetarian screed did NOT help matters any (for the record, I have nothing against vegetarians but this story was overkill. It was like being hit on the head with a sledgehammer).


The other thing that has completely BAFFLED me for years is the structure. Supposedly, J N-T loved the way Frazer Hines and Patrick Troughton always played off of one another and that was why he wanted them to do the story but then the story is structured so that Hines and Troughton are not even on screen together very much!

It's insane to have a great comedy team together and then spend most of the story separating the team. It would be like having Abbott and Costello for a movie and then spending most of the movie with the two of them apart.

[king mob]

I forget who but someone involved in the story was also a pretty strong vegetarian and the whole script was supposed to be about food, eating, and basically anti-meat so being a vegetarian screed did NOT help matters any (for the record, I have nothing against vegetarians but this story was overkill. It was like being hit on the head with a sledgehammer).

Robert Holmes was the veggie in question.


The other thing that has completely BAFFLED me for years is the structure. Supposedly, J N-T loved the way Frazer Hines and Patrick Troughton always played off of one another and that was why he wanted them to do the story but then the story is structured so that Hines and Troughton are not even on screen together very much!

It's insane to have a great comedy team together and then spend most of the story separating the team. It would be like having Abbott and Costello for a movie and then spending most of the movie with the two of them apart.

The story seems to have loads of things crammed into it such as the Second Doctor and Jamie, the Spanish setting & the veggie message in a way that doesn't quite make what is a fairly simple Sontaran story work.

I'm not sure if I actually enjoy The Two Doctors, last time I watched it was when it came out on DVD and I liked seeing Troughton but I remember finding the story as nasty as I remember it at the time. It's annoying as Holmes was the perfect Who writer and understood the programme perfectly, so to see him turn out a puzzling script is somewhat sad.

I also picked up The Next Doctor DVD. It looks ok extra wise, though watching it sober and not full of turkey and Christmas pudding will be interesting...

[AlistairCrane]

In the past couple of days, I watched Resurrection of the Daleks and Remembrance of the Daleks.

Good Christ, the old series was awful!

The production values (the videotape, props, special effects, the MUSIC), the acting, the writing...just awful!

I need to go back and watch seasons 1-4 of the RTD series to get rid of the aftertaste.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

In the past couple of days, I watched Resurrection of the Daleks and Remembrance of the Daleks.

Good Christ, the old series was awful!

The production values (the videotape, props, special effects, the MUSIC), the acting, the writing...just awful!

I need to go back and watch seasons 1-4 of the RTD series to get rid of the aftertaste.

Lets see.... small budget show , shot with really no advancement in sci-fi and all....wonder why you'd hate it . And I'll say this...its been good. I watched from the black & white shows and didn't expect a fucking George Lucas special effects extravanganza .

[Stressfactor]

I will agree with Alistair on one thing.... God, I HATED the music through the 80's. Tom Baker's last season and on through Davison's and C. Baker's and yes, even McCoy's.... when they let the Radiophonic Workshop take over all the music..... Damn, but they should have BURNED every Casio Keyboard in the joint!

People may have made fun of Dudley Simpson's stuff but at least the man used actual INSTRUMENTS!!!! Gah!

[AlistairCrane]

It's not really the keyboards so much as the music was used in weird places and the sounds didn't fit the action.

And, oh my God, what the HELL was with McCoy's opening and title?!

[Cyke]

I will agree with Alistair on one thing.... God, I HATED the music through the 80's. Tom Baker's last season and on through Davison's and C. Baker's and yes, even McCoy's.... when they let the Radiophonic Workshop take over all the music..... Damn, but they should have BURNED every Casio Keyboard in the joint!

People may have made fun of Dudley Simpson's stuff but at least the man used actual INSTRUMENTS!!!! Gah!

I liked the melding of old school music with Murray Gold's pieces in Time Crash. Yeah, I know it was used for comedic effect, but it was cute.

[Stressfactor]

And, oh my God, what the HELL was with McCoy's opening and title?!
That's something that does take a lot of flack from fans. It was pretty God-Awful. I'm not fond of Colin Baker's opening titles either... at least not the pre-"Trial of a Time Lord" stuff.

[Matt]

I didn't mind the 3D CGI TARDIS flying in space, but the rest was rather bad (the wink was just kind of creepy, for one thing).

Still, I'd put the writing/plotting of old series episodes such 'Remembrance of the Daleks', 'Curse of Fenric' or even 'Ghost Light' up against anything from the new series and be confident that it would be superior.

[Charles RB]

The production values (the videotape, props, special effects, the MUSIC), the acting, the writing...just awful!

I'm amused by the idea we won't be finding the production values of the RTD series "awful" in twenty years time...

(We already have people finding some of the acting and writing bad - because some of it is - and have been since 2005...)

[AlistairCrane]

I'm making a solemn vow never to watch another "classic" Who show. To me, the new show is a classic. It's just a damn shame that the new series' DVDs are about $115. 13 episode DVD sets should NEVER be more than $30.

[Stressfactor]

I'm making a solemn vow never to watch another "classic" Who show. To me, the new show is a classic. It's just a damn shame that the new series' DVDs are about $115. 13 episode DVD sets should NEVER be more than $30.You deny yourself the glories of Tom Baker?
"The Deadly Assassin is a really good scrpt and has some solid special effects. "Terror of the Zygons" is the same -- good scrpt, the excellent Douglas Camfield directing, and some pretty good effects (excepting the Loch Ness monster -- that's bad -- but there is a cracking good model explosion).

Patrick Troughton, William Hartnell and the black and white era?

Besides all that, even the grand and glorious RTD has pulled stuff from the classic series. He's said, for example, that the Doctor started the Time War with the Daleks due to his actions in "Genesis of the Daleks".

[AlistairCrane]

Patrick Troughton, William Hartnell and the black and white era?


It's a general rule of mine that I don't watch any tv show or movie in black and white.

[Toku King]

In the past couple of days, I watched Resurrection of the Daleks and Remembrance of the Daleks.

Good Christ, the old series was awful!

The production values (the videotape, props, special effects, the MUSIC), the acting, the writing...just awful!

The writing was great for "Remembrance"(never saw "Resurrection"), the production value was good for the time, and, to be honest, it's better than most of season 4 of the new series.

[Stressfactor]

I know..... Casablanca, Citizen Kane, the Three Stooges, Abbott and Costello, Psycho, etc.?

Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face....

[ChrisIII]

Regarding the music, both Ressurection and Rememberance were from the 80
's era, where Dudley Simpson's (Who did prettty much all Tom Baker except for Seeds of Doom and Zygons) more charming if slightly repetititve themes were exchanged for the more electronic likes of Malcolm Clarke (Who did do one seventies story though-The Sea Devils) and Keff McCollough.....

[Charles RB]

I know..... Casablanca, Citizen Kane, the Three Stooges, Abbott and Costello, Psycho, etc.?


Night Of The Living Dead, Quatermass (first two films and first three serials), early Dad's Army, The Day The Earth Stood Still, Universal's early horrors, Nosferatu, La Haine...

Regarding the music, both Ressurection and Rememberance were from the 80
's era, where Dudley Simpson's (Who did prettty much all Tom Baker except for Seeds of Doom and Zygons) more charming if slightly repetititve themes were exchanged for the more electronic likes of Malcolm Clarke (Who did do one seventies story though-The Sea Devils) and Keff McCollough.....

Dudley Simpson was amused that the ratings went down after he was gone, which he partially attributes to the loss of the familiar "sound". I doubt that was a big reason, but some of the 80s music bits are really cack - though so are some of Dudley's, like the Silurians theme...

Fan fact: Andrew Cartmel used to hate the synth-heavy Battlefield score, but admitted in the DVD commentary that he's changed his mind on it now that synth's had a bit of a comeback...

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I'm making a solemn vow never to watch another "classic" Who show. To me, the new show is a classic. It's just a damn shame that the new series' DVDs are about $115. 13 episode DVD sets should NEVER be more than $30.

Man those are steep. But its your loss. I'd rather watch the history of a character and learn about something than jump in and expect to enjoy the character at his latest point.

You deny yourself the glories of Tom Baker?
"The Deadly Assassin is a really good scrpt and has some solid special effects. "Terror of the Zygons" is the same -- good scrpt, the excellent Douglas Camfield directing, and some pretty good effects (excepting the Loch Ness monster -- that's bad -- but there is a cracking good model explosion).

Patrick Troughton, William Hartnell and the black and white era?

Besides all that, even the grand and glorious RTD has pulled stuff from the classic series. He's said, for example, that the Doctor started the Time War with the Daleks due to his actions in "Genesis of the Daleks".

Pretty much spot on. And if thats the case its a great history once I get there from watching all the great Who stories online. How anyone can say they don't like Hartnell and Troughton's Doctors makes me sad. Troughton's Doctor is my all-time favorite.

http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa263/deutschjay/patrick_troughtonbnw.jpg

His facial reactions were fun. How he could go from scared to being angry at something quick.

It's a general rule of mine that I don't watch any tv show or movie in black and white.

Man ....I pity you. Your really missing out on a lot of things.

[king mob]

In the past couple of days, I watched Resurrection of the Daleks and Remembrance of the Daleks.

Good Christ, the old series was awful!

The production values (the videotape, props, special effects, the MUSIC), the acting, the writing...just awful!

I need to go back and watch seasons 1-4 of the RTD series to get rid of the aftertaste.


Both are great examples of better stories in it's latter years, & Resurection uses the Doctor as a catalyst but avoids using him as a main character, something Nu Who seems to skirt around doing with the exception of Turn Left. Remembrance is fun, partly for all the fanboy references to older Who and Quatermass, but it's a decent Dalek story that somehow manages to make the Daleks seem like a force. That was something Old Who never really did after Genesis of the Daleks.

But really, trying to compare a programme generally hated by BBC management at the time to one adored by current BBC management is a tad disengenuous.

[king mob]

I will agree with Alistair on one thing.... God, I HATED the music through the 80's. Tom Baker's last season and on through Davison's and C. Baker's and yes, even McCoy's.... when they let the Radiophonic Workshop take over all the music..... Damn, but they should have BURNED every Casio Keyboard in the joint!

People may have made fun of Dudley Simpson's stuff but at least the man used actual INSTRUMENTS!!!! Gah!

The Radiophonic Workshop did a decent job, & without them I probably wouldn't have been tripping my tits off to the like of Orbital in fields in Somerset, but JNT liked them for their sound rather than their ability to form a soundtrack. Certainly by the time of McCoy the concept of a soundtrack was gone and it was just bloody annoying.

[king mob]

Still, I'd put the writing/plotting of old series episodes such 'Remembrance of the Daleks', 'Curse of Fenric' or even 'Ghost Light' up against anything from the new series and be confident that it would be superior.


I wouldn't, certainly not against stuff like Midnight or The Doctor Dances. Those are decent bits of late Who but they're average in terms of structure and plot compared to the best of RTD's stuff, and incomparable to the work of Robert Holmes or Terrance Dicks as purely enjoyable bits of kids telly.

[Kaos]

Gotta say the new Doctor Who looks like a douchebag.

[king mob]

It's a general rule of mine that I don't watch any tv show or movie in black and white.

I'll bite: why on earth not? You're not only denying yourself great and enjoyable works of art, but it just doesn't make sense to ignore something because it's not in colour.

[king mob]

Night Of The Living Dead, Quatermass (first two films and first three serials), early Dad's Army, The Day The Earth Stood Still, Universal's early horrors, Nosferatu, La Haine...

There's a scary documentary quality to the B & W Dad's Army that plays up the sheer darkness of the fact that yes, these people are going to die trying to stop the Nazis should they invade Britain, but you're going to laugh at how brilliantly written the programme is anyhow. As much as I adore the series in colour, it's not got that same rawness. Same goes for Til' Death Us Do Part.


Fan fact: Andrew Cartmel used to hate the synth-heavy Battlefield score, but admitted in the DVD commentary that he's changed his mind on it now that synth's had a bit of a comeback...

I hear a lot of the Radiophonic Workshop sound round Bristol at various free parties and raves. I especially like the rather smashing version of the current Who theme crossed with The Ting Tings I've heard a few times.

[Charles RB]

it's a decent Dalek story that somehow manages to make the Daleks seem like a force.

The huge explosions when they zap things might be what does it! When the emergency services think the IRA's set a bomb off, you know you've got good pyrotechnics.

As much as I adore the series in colour, it's not got that same rawness.

Going from the S1-2 DVD to S3 emphasised that strongly. I don't think it's the colour doing it though, it's that this is the third series, the status quo and character tics are established - it's in a comfortable groove by now.

Them being the Home Guard probably helps too, as by that point historically they had better supplies - the Volunteer Defence Force episodes had a very nasty edge due to them not even having bullets. It's a pity they changed to the Guard so early...

[Tobias March]

A bit late to the party - but I finally saw the Next Doctor.

Ah Dervla Kirwan.....you make anything good.

"Assumpta, Assumpta, Assumpta" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00nOjGlff64&feature=PlayList&p=E8F4EC52516BCF11&playnext=1&index=40)

Unfortunate that her character was just another 'Bitca' writ large (like the nanny from the first episode of the 4th season.....or Zoe Wanamaker's character)

Still. It was better than the Kylie Xmas episode.

[Charles RB]

There's an interview with her in the new Doctor Who Magazine, where she remarks that no one on set knew where Hartigan's red dress came from and they decided one of the Cybermen is good at sewing.

They also had a feature on the filming of the last Sarah Jane ep, revealing that between shots the Sontaran actor (in full make-up) went to a nearby road, held up a sign saying "Sontar", and pretended to hitch-hike. (Also a child actor likes Nick Courtney and was amazed to know how long he'd been on the show - everyone respects the Brig.)

[Stressfactor]

Well, you know, Courtney's got this... authority.... It's like I was telling one of my friends, it doesn't seem to matter how old the man gets -- it's a quality in his voice that just instills both trust and allegiance. As an actor he has this ability to be warm, and funny, but also to project this aura of expecting to be obeyed when he gives a command.

He just SEEMS like a natural born leader. It's a quality that, sadly, the actor who played Col. Mace lacked.


But I would have LOVED to have seen the hitchhiking Sontaran - that must have given some motorists a double-take and a good laugh.

[Toku King]

It's a quality that, sadly, the actor who played Col. Mace lacked.

Mace has it, but he just had to learn how to project it. Personally, that was my favorite part of "The Sontaran Strategem".

[AlistairCrane]

I'll bite: why on earth not? You're not only denying yourself great and enjoyable works of art, but it just doesn't make sense to ignore something because it's not in colour.

I'm a Millennial. I'm too sophisticated for black and white.

[Stressfactor]

Moving along.....

Any news on how the Sarah Jane Adventures did in ratings? Good enough to get a third run?

[king mob]

Moving along.....

Yes, I think that's for the best.....

Any news on how the Sarah Jane Adventures did in ratings? Good enough to get a third run?

Apparently so. It did well for a Monday teatime slot & has proven again that the BBC can do good original children's drama.

[Charles RB]

He just SEEMS like a natural born leader. It's a quality that, sadly, the actor who played Col. Mace lacked.


I dunno, I think it works for the character - he's not quite ready for this stuff, he's capable of being rattled, the Doctor's going over his head when he's not being condescending. It pays off when he finally snaps at the Doctor and pulls out a win.

[Stressfactor]

I dunno, I think it works for the character - he's not quite ready for this stuff, he's capable of being rattled, the Doctor's going over his head when he's not being condescending. It pays off when he finally snaps at the Doctor and pulls out a win.
Might be nice to see the character come back and get a chance to develop more. One of my friends really liked Mace in that episode.

[Charles RB]

One of my friends really liked Mace in that episode.

Well, he's the underdog, isn't he? He's trying to do his job and there's the Doctor overriding him, talking him down, insulting his resources, and after he showed the guy respect and everything. You want Mace to show this tosser up.

"Thank you, Doctor, thank you for your lack of faith, but this time I'm not listening."

[Captain Jim]

Moving along.....

Any news on how the Sarah Jane Adventures did in ratings? Good enough to get a third run?

Yes, a third series has been confirmed. Now, if we could only get the second aired over here in the US.

[Stressfactor]

Yes, a third series has been confirmed. Now, if we could only get the second aired over here in the US.YouTube was my friend... :biggrin: Of course, I didn't get to see the second to last story because the BBC started really cracking down and nipping the YouTube posters almost as soon as they popped up. I did manage to see all of the last episode of the season, though -- the one guest-starring Nicholas Courtney.

[king mob]

Some news about the Easter special is creeping out.

Former EastEnders star Michelle Ryan and comedian Lee Evans will guest star in Doctor Who's Easter special, the BBC has confirmed.

Ryan will play the mysterious Lady Christina de Souza in the special episode, entitled Planet of the Dead.

"I'm a huge fan of Doctor Who and very excited to be joining David Tennant and the Doctor Who team," she said.

Evans plays a character called Malcolm, whose life becomes connected to the Doctor's in unusual circumstances.

Planet of the Dead is the first of four Doctor Who specials, marking the end of David Tennant's tenure as the Time Lord.

'Can't wait'

Ryan is best known for playing Zoe Slater in the BBC One soap and starring in the American remake of Bionic Woman.

Recently, there has been speculation that she could be cast as the Doctor's new assistant, when Tennant's replacement, Matt Smith, takes on the role next year.

It is not known whether this appearance rules her out of that role - Catherine Tate's character Donna Noble first appeared in a Doctor Who Christmas special 15 months before she returned as the Doctor's assistant.

Ryan said: "It is such a fantastic show and I can't wait to get started."

Executive producer and writer Russell T Davies said: "Michelle is one of the most sought-after young actors in the country and we are delighted to announce that she will be joining the team.

"As always the script is being kept strictly under wraps. However, we can reveal that Lady Christina is a woman with a mysterious past who's going to have a huge impact on the Doctor."

Filming on the episode has already begun in Wales.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/7844899.stm

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I recently finished watching Revelation of the Daleks ...my thoughts.


The Good

As much as it irks me about Colin Baker as the Doctor , in this one he wasn't so much an asshole. I suppose they wanted to lighten him more and tone down him mocking Peri and being an ass clown. It seemed to work for him.

I loved seeing the introduction of Orcini as a Space Knight of some kind. One who fights for honor but has been let go due to something from his Order. He was a classic character that I felt had a lot there.

And yeah Jobel was a fool. He pretty much deserved to be sacrificed for being an idiot.

The end has Davros be taken into custody by his original Daleks for crimes against them. Thats irony ...and his new evolved Daleks get destroyed . But Orcini and the Doctor know that the Daleks can't be allowed to have them for reprogramming . So in his final glory and restore his honor the space knight sacrifices himself to blow it all to hell !

The Bad

Whyyyy Orcini why ? You were awesome and I really wanted you to live. To be that tough bastard who somehow runs into the Doctor down the line. That you can joke that your too tough to die and your honor demands it.

My 2nd complaint was the "body snatchers" who broke in as the girl was looking for her dad. Outta nowhere they both die...after a great part of the story took place with them. Kinds suprising they'd die so quick. I expected them to do more in the story.

My other complaint was the fucking DJ. Geeze did I wanna choke that guy. Just made me wanna strangle him. Its hard to believe I cheered the Dalek on but well I did with him. Just weird how he'd cut into the story outta nowhere til they explained him.

Another thing they failed to explain was...the situation with whatever the hell that mutated man was who attacked the Doctor and Peri in the woods was. I mean couldn't we get an explanation on why Davros was doing with him ...because he sure as hell didn't look like he was becoming a Dalek.


OVERALL (5 Stars being Great) **1/2 outta 5.

Orcini should be revived. Get some old guy with plenty of scars on his face to return ! (if he hasn't already)

Beyond it not the greatest Dalek story thus far. But a much better Colin Baker story than the "Twin Dilemma" . Waaaaay way better.

[Toku King]

I recently finished watching Revelation of the Daleks ...my thoughts.


The Good

As much as it irks me about Colin Baker as the Doctor , in this one he wasn't so much an asshole. I suppose they wanted to lighten him more and tone down him mocking Peri and being an ass clown. It seemed to work for him.

I loved seeing the introduction of Orcini as a Space Knight of some kind. One who fights for honor but has been let go due to something from his Order. He was a classic character that I felt had a lot there.

And yeah Jobel was a fool. He pretty much deserved to be sacrificed for being an idiot.

The end has Davros be taken into custody by his original Daleks for crimes against them. Thats irony ...and his new evolved Daleks get destroyed . But Orcini and the Doctor know that the Daleks can't be allowed to have them for reprogramming . So in his final glory and restore his honor the space knight sacrifices himself to blow it all to hell !

The Bad

Whyyyy Orcini why ? You were awesome and I really wanted you to live. To be that tough bastard who somehow runs into the Doctor down the line. That you can joke that your too tough to die and your honor demands it.

My 2nd complaint was the "body snatchers" who broke in as the girl was looking for her dad. Outta nowhere they both die...after a great part of the story took place with them. Kinds suprising they'd die so quick. I expected them to do more in the story.

My other complaint was the fucking DJ. Geeze did I wanna choke that guy. Just made me wanna strangle him. Its hard to believe I cheered the Dalek on but well I did with him. Just weird how he'd cut into the story outta nowhere til they explained him.

Another thing they failed to explain was...the situation with whatever the hell that mutated man was who attacked the Doctor and Peri in the woods was. I mean couldn't we get an explanation on why Davros was doing with him ...because he sure as hell didn't look like he was becoming a Dalek.


OVERALL (5 Stars being Great) **1/2 outta 5.

Orcini should be revived. Get some old guy with plenty of scars on his face to return ! (if he hasn't already)

Beyond it not the greatest Dalek story thus far. But a much better Colin Baker story than the "Twin Dilemma" . Waaaaay way better.

I'd give "Revelation Of The Daleks" a 4/5. Very solid episode for me, despite a few quirks.

[king mob]

Beyond it not the greatest Dalek story thus far. But a much better Colin Baker story than the "Twin Dilemma" . Waaaaay way better.

The Twin Dilemma is a load of utter shite & possibly one of the reasons why the British public instantly disliked Colin Baker as The Doctor. It's not as bad as Timelash though.

[Toku King]

The point of the Doctor's dickery in "The Twin Dilemma" was so they could gradually turn him into a kind hearted soul. Unfortunately, there are three things wrong with that.
1) That's not the Doctor's character at all. Though his personality tweaks every regeneration, and has been crusty now and again, he was never a flat out asshole.
2) The episodes where the Doctor is a jerk aren't going to be good at all, so why even do it?
3) Even by the end, the Sixth Doctor was still an ass, just not as big of one.

[Stressfactor]

In all fairness, Colin Baker wanted to make the Doctor even less assholish but show runner and script editor kept telling writers to do it their way.



In other news..... "Doctor Who: The Forgotten" -- It was a good, solid series but this final issue skated a bit close to.... well.... fanwank. Still, it WAS nice to see the Doctor meeting up with a whole bunch of his former companions and....... OMG SUSAN!!!!!!

It was really nice seeing the Doctor admit that, in the end, flesh and blood meant so much more to him than he let on.

[Charles RB]

It's not as bad as Timelash though.

Colin and Nicola, the crew, the viewers, the Doctor Who Magazine photo-caption writers... everyone hates Timelash.

[Charles RB]

"Doctor Who: The Forgotten"

Tardis Wikia is saying the villain was the Tenth Doctor copy from the end of S4. If true, I LOVE YOU TONY LEE.

[king mob]

The point of the Doctor's dickery in "The Twin Dilemma" was so they could gradually turn him into a kind hearted soul. Unfortunately, there are three things wrong with that.
1) That's not the Doctor's character at all. Though his personality tweaks every regeneration, and has been crusty now and again, he was never a flat out asshole.
2) The episodes where the Doctor is a jerk aren't going to be good at all, so why even do it?
3) Even by the end, the Sixth Doctor was still an ass, just not as big of one.

The Doctor has acted the prick often,( Hartnell, Pertwee and Tom Baker often played the role as if he was a bit of a cock) and to make him a completly dislikeable wanker is a nice idea and had it been done well, it would have provided the programme to give it the jump it needed after the successful Davison erea.

But it didn't work because the scripts were rubbish, the acting was poor and Baker was miscast and stuck in a ridiculous outfit that detracted from the few good points of his time. Colin Baker's time really was catastrrophic, but it wasn't deliberately designed to be shite, it was just a variety of factors that made it so.

[Charles RB]

The Doctor started as a cock - he was a grumpy old bastard who kidnapped two people and later tried to beat an unconscious caveman to death.

Then he became nicer for commercial reasons - er, I mean, realisation he'd been wrong.

[Stressfactor]

Tardis Wikia is saying the villain was the Tenth Doctor copy from the end of S4. If true, I LOVE YOU TONY LEE.
No, it wasn't. The Doctor THOUGHT it was at first but then.... it turned out that the whole thing was happening by the Doctor's mind being brought into the TARDIS's Matrix. As it turned out, in Journey's End the Daleks had brought more than just humans on board the Crucible to test the reality bomb -- they also brought aliens from some of the other planets they had captured. One of those aliens was called a Tactire -- a cranial parasite -- from the planet Calufrax Minor.

This Tactire got on board the TARDIS and attacked the Doctor apparently shortly after the Doctor had dropped Donna off. The Tactire's M.O. was to take over the host's mind. The TARDIS sensed the attack on the Doctor's mind through the psionic link they share and pulled the Doctor's mind inot the Matrix in hopes of helping him fight off the parasite. The creature's mind, however, was so firmly linked already that it was pulled into the Matrix as well and, in the Doctor's low and depressed state after everything that had happened in Journey's End the Tactire was stronger and IT shaped the Matrix world (think of how the Master was able to shape the Matrix over the Doctor in "The Deadly Assassin").

The TARDIS personified itself as Martha in an effort to help the Doctor boost his mind and fight back against the Tactire. The Tactire chose to give itself a physical form modeled after the Doctor's own but took his dark impulses from the Valyard. When confronted by his double, the Doctor at first thought it was the clone Doc but later realized that the Tactire was partially using the model of the Valyard. Also, once the Doctor realized that "Martha" was actually the TARDIS he asked her to not use Martha's form saying that she was too recent and too "raw" and so would the TARDIS pick someone else -- or maybe "shuffle". So the TARDIS ended up round-robining through a number of the Doctor's companions including Harry Sullivan, a YOUNG Sarah Jane, Adric, Mel, Steven Taylor, Leela, Nyssa, and even Kamelion.

[Stressfactor]

The Doctor started as a cock - he was a grumpy old bastard who kidnapped two people and later tried to beat an unconscious caveman to death.

Then he became nicer for commercial reasons - er, I mean, realisation he'd been wrong.
And don't forget that he threatened to dump said two kidnap victims in the middle of nowhere.

While I don't doubt that there were commercial reasons involved in softening the character I still think Verity Lambert was telling the truth when in one interview she basically indicated that that kind of "mean old man" was also no fun to write for.

[Toku King]

The Doctor has acted the prick often,( Hartnell, Pertwee and Tom Baker often played the role as if he was a bit of a cock) and to make him a completly dislikeable wanker is a nice idea and had it been done well, it would have provided the programme to give it the jump it needed after the successful Davison erea.

The Doctor can be douchey now and again, but making him an all out dick is just plain stupid. It would never work, even with a good writer. Even when a little tense, the Doctor is always portrayed as lovable in one way or another. Turning him into a jerk just doesn't work.

[Toku King]

The Doctor started as a cock - he was a grumpy old bastard who kidnapped two people and later tried to beat an unconscious caveman to death.

Not really. He was just grumpy, but I still loved him.

[Charles RB]

No, it wasn't.

Darn. :frown:
.

Not really. He was just grumpy, but I still loved him.

Eh? He did abduct Ian and Barbera, and he did try to kill that caveman in his first story.

[Toku King]

Eh? He did abduct Ian and Barbera, and he did try to kill that caveman in his first story.

He abducted them because he knew they were going to blab, and he didn't try to kill the caveman.

[Charles RB]

Still, it could've been worse (http://www.redshirt.co.uk/random/the-second-secret-of-doctor-who/). An early idea for Doctor Who's personality was:

In his own day, somewhere in our future, he decided to search for a time or for a society or for a physical condition that is ideal, and having found it, to stay there. He stole the machine and set forth on his quest. He is thus an extension of the scientist who has opted out, but he has opted farther than ours can do, at the moment. And having opted out, he is disintegrating.

One symptom of this is his hatred of scientists, inventors, improvers. He can get into a rare paddy when faced with a cave man trying to invent a wheel. He malignantly tries to stop progress (the future) wherever he finds it, while searching for his ideal (the past). This seems to me to involve slap up-to-date moral problems, and old ones too…

The authorities of his own (or some other future) time are not concerned merely with the theft of an obsolete machine; they are seriously concerned to prevent his monkeying with time, because his secret intention, when he finds his ideal past, is to destroy or nullify the future


(Sydney Newman wrote "nuts" on this pitch)

According to Bunny, the Doctor is an insane nutter out to assassinate all scientists and search for an ‘ideal physical condition.’ Oooh-er. Should Bunny’s ideas have been used, the first season would have turned out like this:

1 - An Unearthly Child
The Doctor travels back to the Stone Age, where a tribe are attempting to rediscover the art of fire. Angered, the Doctor steals all their sticks so they can’t make the EVIL fire, and kills everyone.

2 - The Daleks
The Doctor arrives on Skaro, where the Thals attempt to overthrow the cruel merciless Daleks. The Doctor joins forces with the Daleks to help maintain the status quo and eliminate the Thals

3 - On The Edge of Destruction
The Doctor locks everyone in the TARDIS, melts all the clocks, drugs everyone, then attempts to murder Ian. Oh wait, that was the plot.

4 - Marco Polo
The Doctor meets Marco Polo, attempting to discover a route to China. Disgusted by this, the Doctor kicks him off a cliff.

5 - The Keys Of Marinus
The Doctor searches to rebuild a mind-enslaving machine that keeps the inhabitants of the planet Marinus docile. The Doctor brutally murders the heroic freedom fighting Voord, who are trying to stop the machine from being rebuilt and thus destroying free will. Oh wait, that was a real plot too.

6 - The Aztecs
Arriving at the time of the Aztecs, the Doctor’s companions try to change history and stop the human sacrifices. The Doctor must stop them, and keep the gory bloody sacrifices going. Hang on, that happened too -I’m beginning to think Bunny had a point.

7 - The Sensorites
Arriving on a planet inhabited by peaceful aliens, the Doctor helps some human astronauts to poison the water supply and kill everyone.

8 - The Reign of Terror
The Doctor goes for a look-see in revolutionary France - and that’s it

As you can see, Bunny’s ideas would have made a massive difference to the series!

[Charles RB]

he didn't try to kill the caveman.

He sneaked over to Za with a large pointy rock when no one was looking, after repeatedly complaining and decrying giving him any medical help. He claimed when caught that he just wanted to get Za to draw with it, but I don't remember Ian being convinced of it - you're actually the first person I've met who did assume the Doctor was telling the truth there!

[Charles RB]

For those curious about Timelash. (http://www.redshirt.co.uk/media/doctor-who-timelash/)

For every good Who story there is its opposite - A Twin Dilemma for every Caves of Androzani; a Revenge of the Cybermen for every Genesis of the Daleks… in the Tom Baker era, there were many, many classic stories, with few duds.

The duds were saved up especially for Colin Baker.

[Doodle Bob]

The Doctor has acted the prick often,( Hartnell, Pertwee and Tom Baker often played the role as if he was a bit of a cock) and to make him a completly dislikeable wanker is a nice idea and had it been done well, it would have provided the programme to give it the jump it needed after the successful Davison erea.

But it didn't work because the scripts were rubbish, the acting was poor and Baker was miscast and stuck in a ridiculous outfit that detracted from the few good points of his time. Colin Baker's time really was catastrrophic, but it wasn't deliberately designed to be shite, it was just a variety of factors that made it so.

I think this is basically right. It would have worked if they were able to give the Doctor more emotional weight and even a good reason for his curmudgeonly nature. But, dressing him up as a clown and then having him endlessly harass Peri for no discernable reason plus mediocre storylines kept this from happening.

That said, it should be noted that I chalk this whole era up to JNT trying to pull of a really big risk, that under different circumstances might have turned out well rather than not.

The McCoy era was more egregious to me in that it signalled to me an end to any risk-taking and an attempt to return to "regular Who" resulting in relative blandness. Then again, I've never gotten to see the McCoy episodes that everyone raves about.

[Dark_Master]

In other news..... "Doctor Who: The Forgotten" -- It was a good, solid series but this final issue skated a bit close to.... well.... fanwank. Still, it WAS nice to see the Doctor meeting up with a whole bunch of his former companions and....... OMG SUSAN!!!!!!I agree that the ending was very weak but that scene with Susan just made it all worthwhile :biggrin:

That's actually something that bothers me whenever the Doctor was talking about his family in "The Doctor's Daughter" or whenever he says that all the Time Lords are dead... one would expect him to at least one mention either Susan or Romana

[king mob]

The Doctor can be douchey now and again, but making him an all out dick is just plain stupid. It would never work, even with a good writer. Even when a little tense, the Doctor is always portrayed as lovable in one way or another. Turning him into a jerk just doesn't work.

Done right it can work, look at Eccleston's Doctor who is scarred & generally misanthropic toward humanity. Making the character a cock, or even a bit of a cock, has been around since the start & it might be interersting to see if Moffat & Matt Smith decide to investigate this route, or it's more of the same as now.

[king mob]

He sneaked over to Za with a large pointy rock when no one was looking, after repeatedly complaining and decrying giving him any medical help. He claimed when caught that he just wanted to get Za to draw with it, but I don't remember Ian being convinced of it - you're actually the first person I've met who did assume the Doctor was telling the truth there!


Make that the only person. The Doctor is quite clearly going to murder somebody with a huge sodding rock. The intention is there and it's partly the reaction to that scene at the time that made the production team soften up the character of The Doctor.

[king mob]

For those curious about Timelash. (http://www.redshirt.co.uk/media/doctor-who-timelash/)


Timelash is only interesting in that it's a replacement for a Pat Mills/John Wagner script.

[king mob]

I think this is basically right. It would have worked if they were able to give the Doctor more emotional weight and even a good reason for his curmudgeonly nature. But, dressing him up as a clown and then having him endlessly harass Peri for no discernable reason plus mediocre storylines kept this from happening.

The costume was at complete odds with the intention for the character, of course it's been well documented that Baker had his own ideas but was overruled by JNT.


Indeed. I don't think anything thought ''right, let's make this really, really shite and have it become the worst era in Who history''. It was a huge and admirable risk but as said, it wasn't just one thing that made it a failure.
[QUOTE=Doodle Bob;8282349
The McCoy era was more egregious to me in that it signalled to me an end to any risk-taking and an attempt to return to "regular Who" resulting in relative blandness. Then again, I've never gotten to see the McCoy episodes that everyone raves about.

The McCoy era is better than I remembered it, but you're right, it's mainly Who-by-numbers but without the verve or orginality of the times it's trying hard to recapture.

[Charles RB]

Timelash is only interesting in that it's a replacement for a Pat Mills/John Wagner script.

By that point Wagner had dropped out and it was Mills on his own, arguing with Saward over whether class would exist in the future (Mills said yes).

[Stressfactor]

So I was watching "Logopolis" and I picked up on something I never noticed before. In the first episode the Doctor tells Adric that if there's something seriously wrong he (Adric) can always "Ring the cloister bell". The Doctor goes on to say that it's a signal -- a general 'call to arms'. All this seems to imply that the cloister bell can be manually activated by the pilot or really anyone within the TARDIS. I had always thought that it was a function of the TARDIS itself. In other words, I though the TARDIS activated the cloister bell to warn of impeding danger -- sort of like how YOU don't turn on your "check engine" warning light on your car, your car's system turns it on if there's something wrong.

Huh. Interesting.

[king mob]

By that point Wagner had dropped out and it was Mills on his own, arguing with Saward over whether class would exist in the future (Mills said yes).

Which is a really stupid thing for Saward to argue about as Who's never taken the simplistic Star Trek view that everything will be lovely & we'll all live as equals in the future.

I'd like to see Mills or Wagner write for the new series to see if they do any better than RTD's 2000AD homages he tends to write.

[Toku King]

Done right it can work, look at Eccleston's Doctor who is scarred & generally misanthropic toward humanity. Making the character a cock, or even a bit of a cock, has been around since the start & it might be interersting to see if Moffat & Matt Smith decide to investigate this route, or it's more of the same as now.

Here's the thing: What you described is not at all being a total jerk. Making the Doctor an asshole is completely different.

[Charles RB]

I'd like to see Mills or Wagner write for the new series to see if they do any better than RTD's 2000AD homages he tends to write.

Me too, but without previous TV credits they're shit out of luck with New Who, unless Moffat really likes the Eighth Doctor audios Mills is doing.

[AlistairCrane]

Which is a really stupid thing for Saward to argue about as Who's never taken the simplistic Star Trek view that everything will be lovely & we'll all live as equals in the future.


I hardly call that a simplistic view. It's what SHOULD happen.

[Stressfactor]

I hardly call that a simplistic view. It's what SHOULD happen. Yeah, it SHOULD but that's also like saying that Communism SHOULD work too. It doesn't because there will always be mean, pretty little jerks among the human race that will ruin it for everybody else.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Yeah, it SHOULD but that's also like saying that Communism SHOULD work too. It doesn't because there will always be mean, pretty little jerks among the human race that will ruin it for everybody else.

As well as advanced humans too. I mean look at the Keys of Kragon (I believe that was the name) story with the 4th Doctor. Those were people an advanced race where all violence and hatred was gone. But all it took was one to scheme against the other and soon enough hell broke loose.

Thats the thing ...I'd hate if Doctor Who became a Star Trek type show where humanity has became all one big happy , world. Sure the world should work towards that dream. But thats all it can be...working towards that type of world ala Star Trek. Doesn't mean there isn't bumps and holes in the road along the way.

To me what hurt Star Trek as a fan to me was the whole aspect that the Kligons had to settle and become at peace with the Federation. They had to create a new baddie to take the Kligons place for it.

[Paul McEnery]

Yeah, it SHOULD but that's also like saying that Communism SHOULD work too. It doesn't because there will always be mean, pretty little jerks among the human race that will ruin it for everybody else.

Not as long as we can send them all to Siberia!

[AlistairCrane]

Yeah, it SHOULD but that's also like saying that Communism SHOULD work too. It doesn't because there will always be mean, pretty little jerks among the human race that will ruin it for everybody else.

There are just not enough eye-roll emoticons for this response....

[Cyke]

There are just not enough eye-roll emoticons for this response....

Well, since we're talking about Star Trek comparisons, Deep Space Nine is arguably the most critically acclaimed Trek show because it took the human paradise concept of TNG and turned it upside down in order to examine it. Battlestar Galactica does the same thing times ten, but that's only because their writers used to work on Deep Space Nine, so one can argue that DS9 was the precursor.

On the other hand, Voyager's one of the weaker Trek shows partly because it went back to TNG's "everybody's happy" rule. The moral here seems to be that conflict breeds good storytelling.

Even then, if humanity reached utter and complete perfection and peace, there'd be no room for improvement anymore, and humanity would become stagnant. There still has to be personal conflict in order for people to better themselves.

The ironic thing is, Voyager touched upon that subject, when the Q Continuum entered a civil war so that they could kickstart their own societal evolution: things had been so perfect for them that their progress stagnated.

ANYway, back to Doctor Who, the Doctor notes that humanity evolved into non-corporeal beings and then into downloads before reverting back to human form, all over roughly 100 trillion years. Somewhere down the line, that sort of hints that humanity had LOTS and lots of conflicts.

[Ontir]

I knew Voyager was screwed when the Maquis happily changed into Starfleet uniforms. The relationship between the two groups SHOULD'VE been along the lines of the current Colonial/Cylon alliance. Roddenberry's edict of no conflict really damaged the Trek sequels. "DS9" managed to work around that by having the Starfleel people conflict with everyone else on that station. It was still screwed up though.

[AlistairCrane]

Even then, if humanity reached utter and complete perfection and peace, there'd be no room for improvement anymore, and humanity would become stagnant. There still has to be personal conflict in order for people to better themselves.


If you're already the best, you don't need to be better.

[Cyke]

If you're already the best, you don't need to be better.

And that's the problem. Perfection is stagnation. Don't you remember all those stories your grade school teachers told you about why being perfect is a bad thing?

If you're perfect, what is there left to live for? If you know all that's unknowable, then why exist in the first place? To pursue perfection is noble, to be a perfectionist is arrogant, to achieve perfection is damnation.

Again, I point back to what the Doctor said in Utopia: humanity achieved higher planes of existence, states of being that could be considered closer to perfection than we are. Even then, they kept evolving and changing over and over again until they reverted back to something close to homo sapien form.

[Tobias March]

This reminds me of a Hunter Gathers quote from the Venture Brothers:

The minute God crapped out the third caveman, a conspiracy was hatched against one of them!

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I knew Voyager was screwed when the Maquis happily changed into Starfleet uniforms. The relationship between the two groups SHOULD'VE been along the lines of the current Colonial/Cylon alliance. Roddenberry's edict of no conflict really damaged the Trek sequels. "DS9" managed to work around that by having the Starfleel people conflict with everyone else on that station. It was still screwed up though.

Thats what irked me about Voyager and the fact that the series really didn't do much the 1st 3 years since there was really no big conflict on the ship. The Maquis seemingly handed their balls to Janeway and Chokoaty (spellin sorry) became a "Yes Ma'am....No Ma'am" guy. Not the leader of a group who wanted no part of Starfleet.

And to add conflict to the ship they had to add Seven of Nine to the cast to do it. To have a Borg be a member trying to recapture her humanity but still locked away mentally by the Borg.

And that's the problem. Perfection is stagnation. Don't you remember all those stories your grade school teachers told you about why being perfect is a bad thing?

If you're perfect, what is there left to live for? If you know all that's unknowable, then why exist in the first place? To pursue perfection is noble, to be a perfectionist is arrogant, to achieve perfection is damnation.

Again, I point back to what the Doctor said in Utopia: humanity achieved higher planes of existence, states of being that could be considered closer to perfection than we are. Even then, they kept evolving and changing over and over again until they reverted back to something close to homo sapien form.

There should be bumps in the road , holes even to perfection. In fact its a big No No in fan fiction. If your hero has no problems and is so utterly perfect and can do wrong or has no problems etc etc...its just crap.

Its why Ed Brubaker has crafted a legendary run on Captain America and why Reginald Hudlin has written what many amount to shit for Black Panther.

[Doodle Bob]

I think there are some major issues when comparing Star Trek to Dr. Who. For one, Star Trek springs from Roddenberry's ideas of what the potential future for humanity could be. He envisioned a time when many of the conflicts we currently get hung up about will fade away. Much like the fact that very few of us get violent over the topic of transubstantiation anymore. DS9 was the least faithful to this vision -- but was a fairly crappy show for other reasons.

Dr. Who was created by a committee and really has no overall philosophical continuity to it. Never did: every new producer brings his own to the mix. It is interesting to note, though, that RTD *did* give the future of humanity a spark of Star Trek utopianism in that in his Who-niverse conflicts over sexuality ended.

[Doodle Bob]

**Double Post***

[Charles RB]

On the other hand, Voyager's one of the weaker Trek shows partly because it went back to TNG's "everybody's happy" rule.

You'd think being lost in space with no idea of how to get back home would stop everyone being happy and provoke conflicts & divisions.

If your hero has no problems and is so utterly perfect and can do wrong or has no problems etc etc...its just crap... [it's] why Reginald Hudlin has written what many amount to shit for Black Panther.

Well, let's be fair, it's one of many why many people think his Black Panther run is shit.

[Typo Lad]

[QUOTE=Charles RB;8291896]You'd think being lost in space with no idea of how to get back home would stop everyone being happy and provoke conflicts & divisions. /QUOTE]

Than that's why a certain writer left the series rather unhappy and eventually revisited those themes with BSG.

[Cyke]

Than that's why a certain writer left the series rather unhappy and eventually revisited those themes with BSG.

What really struck me as odd was how each show could be separated and ultimately defined by how they both dealt with the same issue:

When Voyager can't reach Earth, the main characters sigh, smile in reassurance, and resume warp speed. They're slightly disappointed.

When the BSG fleet can't land on Earth, the president suffers a huge crisis of faith, the Admiral is on the verge of a breakdown, a supporting character commits suicide, and civil war is about to break out. Basically, what real people would do.

BSG for the win.


And even then, with Doctor Who, when humanity at the end of time failed to reach the non-existent Utopia, they pulled some drastic and horrific measures to ensure their own survival. They were endearing at first, but once their fate is revealed, they're tragically far, far from perfect.

[AlistairCrane]

And that's the problem. Perfection is stagnation. Don't you remember all those stories your grade school teachers told you about why being perfect is a bad thing?

I don't remember that. I've always tried to be like Mary Poppins--practically perfect in every way.

[Stressfactor]

W00T! "War Machines" finally hit US stores last week! I've bought my copy but haven't had time to sit down and watch it.

Still, when I first watched this on YouTube I had thought that William Hartnell looked particularly frail here, did anyone else ever have that impression?

[king mob]

Me too, but without previous TV credits they're shit out of luck with New Who, unless Moffat really likes the Eighth Doctor audios Mills is doing.

Well RTD has ripped off Mills with stuff like Gridlocked, and there's a very 2000AD feel about some of Moffat's stuff, especially in his dialogue. It'd be nice to see what they could do.

[king mob]

I hardly call that a simplistic view. It's what SHOULD happen.

But it won't. Welcome to the real world.

[king mob]

Thats the thing ...I'd hate if Doctor Who became a Star Trek type show where humanity has became all one big happy , world. Sure the world should work towards that dream. But thats all it can be...working towards that type of world ala Star Trek. Doesn't mean there isn't bumps and holes in the road along the way.

It's worth noting that while most US SF telly consisted of rayguns and soap opera, we had stuff like Quatermass that was full of government conspiracies and big chunks of raging cynicism toward authority. Who is very much in the same vein of 50's British SF telly, even today, though it's attacks on Nu Labour have been a bit muted compared upon old Who's political stuff.

To me what hurt Star Trek as a fan to me was the whole aspect that the Kligons had to settle and become at peace with the Federation. They had to create a new baddie to take the Kligons place for it.

Indeed. Although I think Rodenberry's view was simplistic, it was a nice idea to have this idealistic view of the future that was very American, very black & white, but it needed a threat to make the future created something to fight for.

The Borg were great baddies but only when they were this unstoppable threat. Once they diluted that threat they became pointless.

[king mob]

On the other hand, Voyager's one of the weaker Trek shows partly because it went back to TNG's "everybody's happy" rule. The moral here seems to be that conflict breeds good storytelling.

If Voyager had stuck to being a simple adventure series with lots of character conflicts then it would have had more than a dozen watchable episodes.

ANYway, back to Doctor Who, the Doctor notes that humanity evolved into non-corporeal beings and then into downloads before reverting back to human form, all over roughly 100 trillion years. Somewhere down the line, that sort of hints that humanity had LOTS and lots of conflicts.


Who has always had conflicting views of humanity's future, ranging from Trek-like optomism to dark gloomy visions of our future. As mentioned, it's never suffered from being tied to one idealogy though it's always had a fairly left wing view of politics in general, which has shaped the scripts accordingly.

[king mob]

W00T! "War Machines" finally hit US stores last week! I've bought my copy but haven't had time to sit down and watch it.

Still, when I first watched this on YouTube I had thought that William Hartnell looked particularly frail here, did anyone else ever have that impression?

It's been a wee while since I saw it when it came out last year, but he did look ill, especially in the last two episodes.

[AlistairCrane]

But it won't. Welcome to the real world.

Not true. We have the potential to make it happen.

[blackphoenix]

Maybe this was covered already but is there anywhere you can see the next doctor online? I was at youtube and only the first two minutes are available.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Not true. We have the potential to make it happen.

Thats just the thing....potential. It doesn't mean we'll ever exist in a world where this "dream" will happen. Because humanity has its problems. There will always be war, death and famine in lots of the world. You , me ...everyone can wish it wasn 't true...but as Stressfactor posted pages back , as long as there are those who exist who are fucked up....ya see this.

[Tobias March]

I think there are some major issues when comparing Star Trek to Dr. Who. For one, Star Trek springs from Roddenberry's ideas of what the potential future for humanity could be. He envisioned a time when many of the conflicts we currently get hung up about will fade away. Much like the fact that very few of us get violent over the topic of transubstantiation anymore. DS9 was the least faithful to this vision -- but was a fairly crappy show for other reasons.

Dr. Who was created by a committee and really has no overall philosophical continuity to it. Never did: every new producer brings his own to the mix. It is interesting to note, though, that RTD *did* give the future of humanity a spark of Star Trek utopianism in that in his Who-niverse conflicts over sexuality ended.

I strongly disagree with this. For one thing Roddenberry's 'Bonanza in Space' and its utopian project didn't long survive him. The concern with the Prime Directive and interventionism soon came to resemble a version of the UN in the future - led exclusively by American veto of course.

Whereas Doctor Who is quintessentially British. As for philosophical content, well look no further than its insistence on interventionism. Whereas Star Trek plays lip service to the notion of 'liberte, egalite and fraternite' in an Americanised form - the Doctor intervenes because as a Timelord, he is superior. The original Who is known for being more educationally minded, so we have the Doctor as a school master. Yet in every incarnation, despite the producers changing, his superiority to humanity remains. Even in the case of the 10th Doctor, who had that line in Midnight, where he demands the people listen to him because he's smarter than them.

So while Star Trek continues to refer to America's inheritence of revolutionary morality, though ambiguously diluted (I mean I can only remember one alien captain appearing in the show....that conspiracy episode with the parasites taking over the Federation - and he was dead by the end.), whereas Doctor Who as the product of a post-colonial power is decidedly superior to other cultures (the Timelords being the very height of 'civilization').

[Charles RB]

Who has always had conflicting views of humanity's future, ranging from Trek-like optomism to dark gloomy visions of our future.

Hell, the second glimpse of our future is one where the Daleks have won, plagues have scythed whole continents clean of life, London is abandoned, the whole Earth turned into Britain's nightmare of "what if we'd lost the War?", and the rebellion's best efforts are failing.

Terry Nation was a grim bastard (and sure loved his plagues).

[Dark_Master]

The Borg were great baddies but only when they were this unstoppable threat. Once they diluted that threat they became pointless.to be fair the Borg as as good a threat as the Daleks are. They even have the same basic problem, they should be able to beat the hell out of the good guys but are defeated just because the heroes are freakishly lucky.

With the Borg this doesn't need to be solved that urgently because they weren't used that much and in any case Star Trek has been off the air for quite some time, so that's not a problem (though it would be good if the writers made an episode were they at least assimilate some random Federation colony like they did in TNG).
With the Daleks this does have to be solved right away because they are in a much worse position than the Borg. They were beaten 4 o 5 times in just 4 seasons, and only 2 times (or 3 depending on how you see it) they were able to do anything to the Doctor or to one of his companions, so they just aren't that much of a believable threat right now (to the audience at the very least)