Doctor Who *spoilers*

[Toku King]

My copy of Battlefield has finally turned up. It's not a story I've seen before and I'm saving it til after Hogmanay in the hope it will help with my huge hangover I'm bound to have on New Year's Day.

I love that story.

[AlistairCrane]

Is it possible Susan Foreman's mother is Jenny from The Doctor's Daughter? At the end of that episode, she could have travelled back in time to Gallifrey (perhaps to learn about her father's history?) and given birth to Susan.

Also, is Tegan from the band Tegan and Sara named after Tegan from the classic series? By the way, after Rose, Martha, and Astrid, Tegan is my favourite companion, and I've only seen her in the Five Doctors.

[rick]

Is it possible Susan Foreman's mother is Jenny from The Doctor's Daughter? At the end of that episode, she could have travelled back in time to Gallifrey (perhaps to learn about her father's history?) and given birth to Susan.


When you take into account the Doctor telling Donna that he was a parent before, it makes the idea unlikely, not impossible mind you, but unlikely.

[Toku King]

I just noticed something : Delgado's Master almost always had to team up with the Doctor when he gets screwed over by aliens. It kind of ruins his danger level.

[Doodle Bob]

Is it possible Susan Foreman's mother is Jenny from The Doctor's Daughter? At the end of that episode, she could have travelled back in time to Gallifrey (perhaps to learn about her father's history?) and given birth to Susan.


Except there is no "back in time to Gallifrey" anymore... all that was erased out of existence, both physical and temporal, by the Time War.

Also, there is little indication that Jenny would know anything about time travel.

[king mob]

The Battlefield DVD has Aaranovitch on both a feature and the commentary cheerfully slagging off his work, it's hilarious.

Excellent. That should help my hangover in the morning.

I've got Carry on Cleo on in the background and totally forgot that Jon Pertwee is in it doing a great turn. All that's needed now is Carry on Screaming and I'm ready for tonight.

[Charles RB]

Excellent. That should help my hangover in the morning.

"No, Sophie. Even for its time, that special effect was embarrassing."

(They've also got a feature on the incident where Sophie Aldred almost died when a water tank cracked open in the studio)

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I'm really enjoying the 4th Doctor. I never could get into the 3rd Doctor stories with it being so Earth bound. I'm a fan of the time travel and other worlds . The Doctor being someone who really has no idea where he's going and being as he's dressed in the 4th Doctor "A space hobo".

I watched "City of Death" this morning and and watching "Robot" that started the 4th doctor now. I really wish Sci-Fi would pick up the old Dr.Who shows since the 1 hour show is a hit for them. They could air the Who shows in a block.

[DrDoom616]

Genesis Of The Daleks has to be the best old Doctor Who Story IMO

:evilsmile:

[Stressfactor]

I'm really enjoying the 4th Doctor. I never could get into the 3rd Doctor stories with it being so Earth bound. I'm a fan of the time travel and other worlds . The Doctor being someone who really has no idea where he's going and being as he's dressed in the 4th Doctor "A space hobo".

I watched "City of Death" this morning and and watching "Robot" that started the 4th doctor now. I really wish Sci-Fi would pick up the old Dr.Who shows since the 1 hour show is a hit for them. They could air the Who shows in a block.

Technically, Tom Baker's sartorial style was influenced by the 19th century Bohemian movement in Paris. In fact, YouTube-er extraordinaire Babelcolour did a really good 4th Doctor tribute music video set to Bohemian Rhapsody http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1Kntrnp6eI&feature=channel_page

As for the Thrid Doctor being Earthbound... Believe it or not the decision to go in that direction was PARTLY made because ratings had been slipping and the producers thought the series was becoming stale (in fact, it was probably mostly because the writers were lagging behind and a LOT of Troughton's stories in his last season were not as good as the earlier ones) and they thought putting the Doctor on Earth would shake things up. They also felt the character was not 'relatable' enough and this would help with that :rolleyes: .

Of course, the other reason they did it was because it would reduce costs and they were under pressure from the BBC to lower their budget.

On "The Inferno" DVD there is a point where Terrance Dicks talks about the decision to strand the Doctor on Earth and he says "The way it was done was absolutely the way it should have been done if you were going to have the Doctor permanently on Earth.... Of course you never SHOULD have had the Doctor permanently on Earth..."

[Charles RB]

Ratings shot up though, Pertwee's run was incredibly popular.

(And Baker's even more, which must've pissed off Pertwee something fierce!)

[Toku King]

I watched "City of Death" this morning and and watching "Robot" that started the 4th doctor now. I really wish Sci-Fi would pick up the old Dr.Who shows since the 1 hour show is a hit for them. They could air the Who shows in a block.

Links to those? Those are two I want to see them.

[Stressfactor]

Ratings shot up though, Pertwee's run was incredibly popular.

(And Baker's even more, which must've pissed off Pertwee something fierce!)
The thing was, though, it wasn't long before they realized that getting rid of the outer-space element was really cramping the show's style and they started finding ways around it.

Pertwee's first series was a lot shorter than previous ones -- really little more than a half of a series and then in the second series you had the writers cheating with "the Time Lords sending the Doctor out on a mission" for Colony in Space and the very next series Day of the Daleks saw the Doctor time traveling again (albeit without the TARDIS) and The Curse of Peladon and The Mutants saw the Doctor again being allowed by the Time Lords to use his TARDIS to travel to other planets and The Time Monster ALSO saw the Doctor traveling through time in his TARDIS by linking it to the Master's TARDIS.

The start of the third series was The Three Doctors and by the end of that story you see the writers just give up entirely and go ahead and give the Doctor full control of his TARDIS back.

If you really look at things the Doctor wasn't "stranded" on Earth that all-fired much because, in the end, the writers realized that taking away the time travel and planetary exploration aspects of the character ended up with them in a rut.

[AlistairCrane]

Except there is no "back in time to Gallifrey" anymore... all that was erased out of existence, both physical and temporal, by the Time War.

Also, there is little indication that Jenny would know anything about time travel.

What do you mean? Yes, it was destroyed in the Time War, but the Doctor could TARDIS back to a time before its destruction. Or Jenny, for that matter.

[Typo Lad]

No, she can't. that's the nature of the Time War. That's the tragedy the 9th Doctor was dealing with. The Time War completely removed Gallifrey from time and space. It's gone. it's no more. It has ceased to be. Never was, never will be again.

[Charles RB]

Pertwee's first series was a lot shorter than previous ones

If you mean the number of episodes (25), they cut a number of episodes for budget reasons but every other Pertwee series was the same length.

If you mean number of stories, that was another budget-based decision forced onto Letts and Dicks - 7 episode serials, so all the costs got stretched out more. And they hated trying to 7-parters, which is why they got away from that even quicker than the Earth exile!

Though if we didn't have the arbitrary 7-parter thing, we'd never have had Inferno - the entire parallel universe storyline was instigated by Dicks as a last-minute way of filling running time! (There's a lot of things like that in Who...)

[AlistairCrane]

No, she can't. that's the nature of the Time War. That's the tragedy the 9th Doctor was dealing with. The Time War completely removed Gallifrey from time and space. It's gone. it's no more. It has ceased to be. Never was, never will be again.

How can the Doctor exist if his home planet were erased from time and space? He'd have to be erased from time and space as well.

[Typo Lad]

How can the Doctor exist if his home planet were erased from time and space? He'd have to be erased from time and space as well.
If your house burns down, and you're not in it, do you burn down as well?

While they haven't quite explained the mechanics, it does seem like the Doctor was outside of localized time/space when it happened, most likely because he needed to be to cause it.

[AlistairCrane]

If you went back in time and destroyed Earth, that would create a paradox because if Earth never existed, you'd never have been born, so you'd never have been able to destroy it, but you did. So its destruction would create an alternate/parallel universe/history.

Which means that the real Gallifrey may be tucked away in another universe, and the Doctor is trapped in the paradox universe. After all, if Gallifrey never existed, he could never have been born.

[Toku King]

How can the Doctor exist if his home planet were erased from time and space? He'd have to be erased from time and space as well.

Not necessarily. It's a TIME WAR. If you lose a war in all time and space, you die in time and space. You happened, but you currently no more. If you go to the past, the stuff you did happened, but no longer are you there.

[Typo Lad]

If you went back in time and destroyed Earth, that would create a paradox because if Earth never existed, you'd never have been born, so you'd never have been able to destroy it, but you did. So its destruction would create an alternate/parallel universe/history.

No, not at all. You're trying to apply the rules of Quantum Reality and Linear Reality to the same problem. Which is actually a ton of fun.

If you go back in time... you changed it. Your very being there is a change. It doesn't matter if you don't move a muscle. You take up space, you breath. You're a new variable that wasn't part of the equation before.

The moment you travel back in time, your old future is gone. Whatever future you travel to is the future you created by being there. This is how Torchwood didn't exist before The Doctor and Rose met Queen Victoria, and suddenly always existed. The Doctor moved to a new personal time line. He can't travel back to the future where Torchwood never existed, because that's gone to him. It doesn't mean he forgets it, he just can't get to it.

Which means that the real Gallifrey may be tucked away in another universe, and the Doctor is trapped in the paradox universe.

What you're saying has merit because of the above. The Doctor's actions removed Gallifrey from his, personal timeline. That doesn't mean it doesn't still exist. There could very well be a Gallifrey in Rose's alternate dimension, or any other such reality.

But it wouldn't be "his".

After all, if Gallifrey never existed, he could never have been born.

No, he would. Because he wasn't part of time when it got erased.

It's the burning house analogy. He wasn't in the house, so he didn't burn. Then years later, he could come back to the neighborhood and there'd be another house there, and no-one left who remembered the house, but it would still in his memory and he'd still exist.

He's an anomaly.

Ever watch Primeval? It's the same way the lead protagonist and antagonist remember the timeline of Season 1, even though it's completely different.

[Toku King]

So, who are your top ten picks for villains that should come back? Mine are as follows(in no order):

The Master: John Simms was a good Master, but I felt that we got ripped off by his death. He needs to become a recurring nemesis again.

The Rani: I actually had a good idea with this one. Instead of being a Timelord or a human, she could have integrated herself with the Matrix, keeping herself alive in a digital world. The episode could be the Doctor going to the planet she used to rule, only for it to be absent. He meets a crew of explorers there, who get attacked by an unstoppable mutant creature. Turns out that this creature was a failed experiment that was made to kill any Daleks or Timelords that come to her planet. Thus, the Doctor must enter the Matrix for a final showdown with the Rani to stop the monster.

Omega: Also in the Matrix could be a mysterious force that is causing anti-matter feedback that is entering our world. It turns out that Omega's soul survives, and is trying to create a new body. This could be a battle of wits and will between the Doctor and his childhood hero.

Sutekh: I'd make a new villain who is trying to reverse the powers of time and space in order to resurrect Sutekh, and then soon after re-release him from his tomb. I'd try to get back Gabriel Woolf, who was one of the best villain actors to ever be on "Doctor Who".

Zygons: I loved these guys! It'd be great to see them back in a 'Sting Of The Zygon'-esque episode.

Weeping Angels: I'd love to see the Doctor face them one on one.

Our Reality's Cybermen: As cool as the new Cybermen are, I miss the classics.

Clockwork Droids: I'd love to see the Clockwork Droids come back in one way or another.

The Axos: What better villain to update than the planet destroying Axos? Imagine what they could do with them.

Sea Devils: Oh, come on! They have to come back! Screw the Hath! The Sea Devils were awesome monsters, and they would be awesome if updated. I'd say the Silurians, but I haven't seen their episode yet.

[Stressfactor]

If you mean the number of episodes (25), they cut a number of episodes for budget reasons but every other Pertwee series was the same length.

If you mean number of stories, that was another budget-based decision forced onto Letts and Dicks - 7 episode serials, so all the costs got stretched out more. And they hated trying to 7-parters, which is why they got away from that even quicker than the Earth exile!

Though if we didn't have the arbitrary 7-parter thing, we'd never have had Inferno - the entire parallel universe storyline was instigated by Dicks as a last-minute way of filling running time! (There's a lot of things like that in Who...)
I meant the first one but it doesn't really matter because my point was that, despite what they set out to do, they started cheating almost right away.

They set out to basically 'get rid of' the whole time travel and other planets portion of the series in order to cut costs and yet in very little time (relatively speaking) they're finding ways to work around their own rules because they just COULDN'T get rid of the time travel and other planets aspect of the show! They're cheating by Pertwee's second season and they throw the idea of the Doctor stranded on Earth out the window COMPLETELY by his third. In fact, when you look at Pertwee's third season it's almost ENTIRELY composed of stories that occur on other planets!

[Stressfactor]

So, who are your top ten picks for villains that should come back? Mine are as follows(in no order): (Snip)

The Rani: I actually had a good idea with this one. Instead of being a Timelord or a human, she could have integrated herself with the Matrix, keeping herself alive in a digital world. The episode could be the Doctor going to the planet she used to rule, only for it to be absent. He meets a crew of explorers there, who get attacked by an unstoppable mutant creature. Turns out that this creature was a failed experiment that was made to kill any Daleks or Timelords that come to her planet. Thus, the Doctor must enter the Matrix for a final showdown with the Rani to stop the monster.


Still think they missed out a bit by not having it turn out that Donna was actually the Rani. Only thing is they should have had the Doctor find out without Donna actually turning into the Rani. Then the Doctor would have a dilemma -- should he release the Rani? One of his worst enemies BUT a fellow Time Lord? But if he does so he knows it would kill Donna, who has become one of his best friends. On the other hand, if he doesn't release the Rani she will live... and DIE as a human being... Now see, THAT is a moral quandry writers could have really sunk their teeth into.

As far as other classic villians I'd like to see come back....

1) The Celestial Toymaker. The being had almost unlimited power and he really DID give the Doctor a run for his money. In fact, in some ways, the Doctor actually was scared of the Toymaker. Plus with modern special effects think of all the stuff they could do with the Toymaker's realm? It would be wicked cool.

2) The Great Intelligence. Here was another being who really gave the Doctor a run for his money. The Great Intelligence was mentally quite powerful and very smart it would be nice to see it cross swords with the Doctor again. PLUS they could either update the Yeti OR use something new that would be even more terrifying....

[king mob]

If you mean the number of episodes (25), they cut a number of episodes for budget reasons but every other Pertwee series was the same length.

If you mean number of stories, that was another budget-based decision forced onto Letts and Dicks - 7 episode serials, so all the costs got stretched out more. And they hated trying to 7-parters, which is why they got away from that even quicker than the Earth exile!



The Silurians is a real struggle, even though it's an excellent story, it just goes on too long. Pertwee's first series was also an attempt to make Who more 'adult', though it ended up partially succeeding, stories like Ambassadors of Death were just pointless remakes of Quatermass serials.

The second series of Pertwee is much more fun as the writers realised that making Who 'adult' is pointless, (still is) but it's smarter to sneak adult themes into the scripts in a way that children can absorb it. It's one of the things Pertwee's Who was criticised for as it became obvious that all the writers were very left wing and anti-establishment.

If
Though if we didn't have the arbitrary 7-parter thing, we'd never have had Inferno - the entire parallel universe storyline was instigated by Dicks as a last-minute way of filling running time! (There's a lot of things like that in Who...)

Inferno is the expection to the 7-parter rule because of that great idea by Dicks. Otherwise it would have been a very poor story indeed,

[king mob]

Still think they missed out a bit by not having it turn out that Donna was actually the Rani. Only thing is they should have had the Doctor find out without Donna actually turning into the Rani. Then the Doctor would have a dilemma -- should he release the Rani? One of his worst enemies BUT a fellow Time Lord? But if he does so he knows it would kill Donna, who has become one of his best friends. On the other hand, if he doesn't release the Rani she will live... and DIE as a human being... Now see, THAT is a moral quandry writers could have really sunk their teeth into.


The problem with that is you have the whole thing about the Doctor being the last of the Time Lords reduced because he's stumbled on another one. Plus the Rani was a bit shite.

[Toku King]

So, who are your top ten picks for villains that should come back? Mine are as follows(in no order):

The Master: John Simms was a good Master, but I felt that we got ripped off by his death. He needs to become a recurring nemesis again.

The Rani: I actually had a good idea with this one. Instead of being a Timelord or a human, she could have integrated herself with the Matrix, keeping herself alive in a digital world. The episode could be the Doctor going to the planet she used to rule, only for it to be absent. He meets a crew of explorers there, who get attacked by an unstoppable mutant creature. Turns out that this creature was a failed experiment that was made to kill any Daleks or Timelords that come to her planet. Thus, the Doctor must enter the Matrix for a final showdown with the Rani to stop the monster.

Omega: Also in the Matrix could be a mysterious force that is causing anti-matter feedback that is entering our world. It turns out that Omega's soul survives, and is trying to create a new body. This could be a battle of wits and will between the Doctor and his childhood hero.

Sutekh: I'd make a new villain who is trying to reverse the powers of time and space in order to resurrect Sutekh, and then soon after re-release him from his tomb. I'd try to get back Gabriel Woolf, who was one of the best villain actors to ever be on "Doctor Who".

Zygons: I loved these guys! It'd be great to see them back in a 'Sting Of The Zygon'-esque episode.

Weeping Angels: I'd love to see the Doctor face them one on one.

Our Reality's Cybermen: As cool as the new Cybermen are, I miss the classics.

Clockwork Droids: I'd love to see the Clockwork Droids come back in one way or another.

The Axos: What better villain to update than the planet destroying Axos? Imagine what they could do with them.

Sea Devils: Oh, come on! They have to come back! Screw the Hath! The Sea Devils were awesome monsters, and they would be awesome if updated. I'd say the Silurians, but I haven't seen their episode yet.

I forgot one of my biggest ones!

The Great One("Planet Of The Spiders"): One of the only villains to ever truly scare the Doctor, the Great One and her followers were awesome opponents. Seeing the Doctor have to re-face his fears would be amazing.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Links to those? Those are two I want to see them.

www.dailymotion.com

There is "Robot" , "Genesis of the Daleks" , "Pyramids of Mars" , and a few more thus far. I'm currently finishing Genesis of Daleks and you can see the Doctor debate on his oath to kill.

"If I do this , I become as bad the Daleks. I commit a species of life to death."

Thats one of the things in "Journey's End" we the Doctor discuss. His feelings on not taking lives .

[king mob]

After the E-Space box-set next month, the next release is a twin pack of The Rescue/The Romans on 23 Fenruary and then it's Attack of the Cybermen on 16 March. April is rumoured to be a Tom Baker, and May is supposed to be a Pertwee.

[Charles RB]

yet in very little time (relatively speaking) they're finding ways to work around their own rules ... Pertwee's third season it's almost ENTIRELY composed of stories that occur on other planets!

You do have to wonder why they waited until The Three Doctors before doing a formal "right, that plot's over" story.

Though even when he finally is free, he keeps coming back to 70s Earth as a "base", so they're not willing to completely seperate from that either. (Fun fact, the Pertwee era is the stated inspiration for the Doctor always going back to the Powell Estate in the first two new years.)

Still think they missed out a bit by not having it turn out that Donna was actually the Rani.

There's a Sarah Jane character called Rani. She should be the Rani. :wink:

The Silurians is a real struggle, even though it's an excellent story, it just goes on too long.

The Silurians' plague? Only in there to pad out the running time. (Paradoxically, it's quite an effective sequence and has some horrific images, and the story would be weaker without it.)

It's one of the things Pertwee's Who was criticised for as it became obvious that all the writers were very left wing and anti-establishment.

See: The Green Death. And IIRC The Mutants was supposed to be partially based on apartheid South Africa, and so on.

The writers being anti-establishment lefties makes it amusing to hear that the Pertwee Doctor's been called the "establishment Doctor" by some fans - plus he isn't, he doesn't even show respect to the Brig and the Brig's paying his rent!

[Stressfactor]

You do have to wonder why they waited until The Three Doctors before doing a formal "right, that plot's over" story.

Though even when he finally is free, he keeps coming back to 70s Earth as a "base", so they're not willing to completely seperate from that either. (Fun fact, the Pertwee era is the stated inspiration for the Doctor always going back to the Powell Estate in the first two new years.)



There's a Sarah Jane character called Rani. She should be the Rani. :wink:



The Silurians' plague? Only in there to pad out the running time. (Paradoxically, it's quite an effective sequence and has some horrific images, and the story would be weaker without it.)



See: The Green Death. And IIRC The Mutants was supposed to be partially based on apartheid South Africa, and so on.

The writers being anti-establishment lefties makes it amusing to hear that the Pertwee Doctor's been called the "establishment Doctor" by some fans - plus he isn't, he doesn't even show respect to the Brig and the Brig's paying his rent!
I think the only reason Pertwee is tarred as "the Establishment Doctor" is because the character does have a habit of name dropping. In... oh god, which story was that?.... "Mind of Evil"? The Doctor indicates that he belongs to an exclusive club. In other episodes he mentions being freinds with various big-wigs.

And I think they waited to drop any pretence of the Doctor being stuck on Earth because "The Three Doctors" was a special, anniversary episode and so I think they wanted to add something special to it. It's kind of like saying "Here, on the anniversary of the program, we're officially going back to the way things used to be -- time travel, alien planets, and monsters. You're welcome."

[Stressfactor]

After the E-Space box-set next month, the next release is a twin pack of The Rescue/The Romans on 23 Fenruary and then it's Attack of the Cybermen on 16 March. April is rumoured to be a Tom Baker, and May is supposed to be a Pertwee.
Jesus, Mary and Joseph... do you KNOW how long it takes to get these in America? "The War Machines" isn't even out here yet!!!!

[Charles RB]

I think the only reason Pertwee is tarred as "the Establishment Doctor" is because the character does have a habit of name dropping.

True, but the names are all of historical figures. When he actually met establishment figures in the present*, he never seemed to like them.

* Well, past now...

[Stressfactor]

True, but the names are all of historical figures. When he actually met establishment figures in the present*, he never seemed to like them.

* Well, past now...

Not quite -- he had been known to mention what were fictional but supposed to be then current Ministers of this and that. Like I said, in "mind of Evil" (I think) he says something about "Talking to Sir _______ over lunch at the club" and someone else goes "Sir ______ the Minister of _______ ?" or something like that and then the officious little toady blanches and gives the Doctor what he wants. Of course there were also those big wigs in the episodes who the Doctor did dislike intensely.

Now, of course, the Doctor *could* have been lying about that... As he would later tell Sarah Jane he's serious about what he does but not necessarily the way he does it.

[AlistairCrane]

Not necessarily. It's a TIME WAR. If you lose a war in all time and space, you die in time and space. You happened, but you currently no more. If you go to the past, the stuff you did happened, but no longer are you there.

That makes no sense at all. If it never existed in the past, then there can be no remnants of it in the present/future, like the Doctor.

[Typo Lad]

That makes no sense at all. If it never existed in the past, then there can be no remnants of it in the present/future, like the Doctor.
You have to free your mind from linear time.

[AlistairCrane]

No, not at all. You're trying to apply the rules of Quantum Reality and Linear Reality to the same problem. Which is actually a ton of fun.

If you go back in time... you changed it. Your very being there is a change. It doesn't matter if you don't move a muscle. You take up space, you breath. You're a new variable that wasn't part of the equation before.


No, that's wrong. Let's say it's now, December 31, 2008. And you decide to go back to February 18, 1766. History books have recorded you as being there, so you HAVE to go now, on December 31, 2008.

Let's say someone kept a journal:
Feb. 17, 1766: Nothing happened.
Feb. 18, 1766: This fellow named AlistairCrane showed up.
Feb. 19, 1766: Nothing happened.

In order to be there on that date and not to mess up the time line, you are compelled to go back into the past. You were always there in the past, and now in the present, you MUST go back to the past because history recorded you as being there, or you will destroy the timeline.

[AlistairCrane]

See, this is why I don't actually believe in time travel. It's fun to watch on shows like Doctor Who, but it's impossible and can never happen in the real world.

[Typo Lad]

No, that's wrong. Let's say it's now, December 31, 2008. And you decide to go back to February 18, 1766. History books have recorded you as being there, so you HAVE to go now, on December 31, 2008.

Let's say someone kept a journal:
Feb. 17, 1766: Nothing happened.
Feb. 18, 1766: This fellow named AlistairCrane showed up.
Feb. 19, 1766: Nothing happened.

In order to be there on that date and not to mess up the time line, you are compelled to go back into the past. You were always there in the past, and now in the present, you MUST go back to the past because history recorded you as being there, or you will destroy the timeline.

Nope. You don't have to because you did already. You from another time line.

As Terry Pratchett would say, it's all because of Quantum.

See, this is why I don't actually believe in time travel. It's fun to watch on shows like Doctor Who, but it's impossible and can never happen in the real world.

It can't happen in a Linear universe, which is what you propose above. In a Quantum universe, however...

Still, don't worry about it. Like I said with continuity, just sit back and enjoy.

[AlistairCrane]

Nope. You don't have to because you did already. You from another time line.

As Terry Pratchett would say, it's all because of Quantum.



It can't happen in a Linear universe, which is what you propose above. In a Quantum universe, however...

Still, don't worry about it. Like I said with continuity, just sit back and enjoy.

There is only one timeline, though. What you're talking about isn't time travel, it's jumping from parallel universe to parallel universe.

[Typo Lad]

There is only one timeline, though. What you're talking about isn't time travel, it's jumping from parallel universe to parallel universe.

Parallel universes are parallel timelines. It's the same thing, Alistair. And there's no "jumping". There are thousands of parallel timelines splintering off all the time.

The Doctor we've been following since 9 is now in a Timeline with no Gallifrey. However, since he came from a timeline with Gallifrey, he remembers it.

Even more interesting is that Time Lords and Gallifrey are so important, that the new time line still "remembers" them as legends.

[Typo Lad]

And Allistar, the novels apparantly answer the question of what, exactly, happened to Gallifrey in a semi-offical manner, but you have said you won't bother so...

[Cyke]

Parallel universes are parallel timelines. It's the same thing, Alistair. And there's no "jumping". There are thousands of parallel timelines splintering off all the time.

The Doctor we've been following since 9 is now in a Timeline with no Gallifrey. However, since he came from a timeline with Gallifrey, he remembers it.

Even more interesting is that Time Lords and Gallifrey are so important, that the new time line still "remembers" them as legends.

Agreed. In The Fires of Pompeii, the Tenth Doctor already pointed out to Donna that there was nothing he could do to save Gallifrey anyway, since he can detect any anomalies in the time stream and what's supposed to be there and what isn't and apparently their destruction was supposed to happen. Compound that with the fact that the Time War is time-locked, and no one can get in (and the only one who could, Dalek Caan, just died), and the Doctor's just completely powerless to save Gallifrey.

As well, the only ones that remember the Time War happened have a much greater understanding of time than modern day humans have. That's just a nice way of saying, "We can't explain it, but trust us, others can." That's good enough for me, frankly.

And the episode that originated the whole wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey explanation and once and for all declared that time wasn't linear was written by none other than Steven Moffat. The Doctor uses the analogy of the ball of string. I take that to mean time isn't a single drawn out line, but a line crumpled up and touching many parts of itself, and that we see the Doctor not going down the line, but hopping from one point in the ball to another. That's why his adventures are linear only to him and nowhere else in the show's "timeline."

And Allistar, the novels apparantly answer the question of what, exactly, happened to Gallifrey in a semi-offical manner, but you have said you won't bother so...

Watching the Next Doctor, I was reminded again of this discussion. Jackson Lake downloaded the information of all the Doctors into his head. All that information was taken from the Daleks, but we never saw the Eighth Doctor fight them on screen. To me that could only mean that this information was retrieved during a non-televised encounter, and perhaps from various encounters in the novels.

It just lends even more credence to the idea that any and almost all of the non-televised material are fair game.

[Toku King]

That makes no sense at all. If it never existed in the past, then there can be no remnants of it in the present/future, like the Doctor.

Stop looking at it logically. It makes sense when you remember that this was outside time and space. Time is altered, but not the events of everything else.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Have they ever did anything UNIT in the new Doctor Who series ? And did the whole time flux adding of Torchwood impact it in any way ?

[Stressfactor]

Have they ever did anything UNIT in the new Doctor Who series ? And did the whole time flux adding of Torchwood impact it in any way ?
UNIT got name checked a couple of time in the new series before it FINALLY showed up officially with "The Sontaran Stratagem/The Poison Sky" last year. Martha is working for them and we've met a Col. Mace who seems to be a (sort of) replacement for the Brig. Not to worry though -- Brigadier Alistair Gordon Lethbridge-Stewart is only semi-retired. He's also been knighted so he's Sir Alistair now. He was kicking butt (although at a much slower pace) over on "The Sarah Jane Adventures" this year as well.

[Stressfactor]

Quote:
Originally Posted by king mob
After the E-Space box-set next month, the next release is a twin pack of The Rescue/The Romans on 23 Fenruary and then it's Attack of the Cybermen on 16 March. April is rumoured to be a Tom Baker, and May is supposed to be a Pertwee.

Jesus, Mary and Joseph... do you KNOW how long it takes to get these in America? "The War Machines" isn't even out here yet!!!!

By the way, I'm not meaning to sound like a bitch here if that's the way it comes off. It just blows my mind how long we here in America keep having to wait for these things.

[Charles RB]

UNIT got name checked a couple of time in the new series before it FINALLY showed up officially with "The Sontaran Stratagem/The Poison Sky" last year.

They first appeared in a big way in The Christmas Invasion and partially in the Master story, but Strategem is the first time they got the chance to actually shoot things & act in the field.

(Christmas Invasion also raises the nerdy question of why CO Major Blake was a Major yet Mace is a Colonel, when they both appeared to be doing the same job. What's Mace done that got him the bump in rank?)

[Toku King]

and we've met a Col. Mace who seems to be a (sort of) replacement for the Brig.

He's like a new generation Lethbridge, though less skilled in monster fighting and more straight-to-the-books. Still, Mace's an amazing character, and I would love to see him come back.

[Cyke]

(Christmas Invasion also raises the nerdy question of why CO Major Blake was a Major yet Mace is a Colonel, when they both appeared to be doing the same job. What's Mace done that got him the bump in rank?)

For one thing, Mace lead his troops to victory. He probably did that at least once in the past :)

All things considered, the guy did perform pretty magnificently on the field. "You will face me, sir!" Hellll yeaahhhh.

[Charles RB]

And he retook the factory without the Doctor doing anything to swing the victory, it's always great when UNIT are allowed to win fights without him and not get written as puddings. (They used to be really professional and competent when first introduced, y'know...)

[Toku King]

For one thing, Mace lead his troops to victory. He probably did that at least once in the past :)

All things considered, the guy did perform pretty magnificently on the field. "You will face me, sir!" Hellll yeaahhhh.

His speech when the Valiant arrived was flippin' incredible!

[Stressfactor]

Mace seemed very milquetoast to me up until the Valliant speech. He let the Doctor run all over him verbally speaking while the Brig often sparred verbally with the Doctor.

With the Valliant bit, the "You will face me sir!", and kissing his subordinate after they won he seemed to come out a bit stronger. If he ever does appear again I hope they build on his character -- let him keep that spine and not have him be afraid to snark back at the Doctor.

[Toku King]

Mace seemed very milquetoast to me up until the Valliant speech. He let the Doctor run all over him verbally speaking while the Brig often sparred verbally with the Doctor.

With the Valliant bit, the "You will face me sir!", and kissing his subordinate after they won he seemed to come out a bit stronger. If he ever does appear again I hope they build on his character -- let him keep that spine and not have him be afraid to snark back at the Doctor.

Mace was trying to be respectful to the Doctor, but our beloved Timelord was being a bit of an uncharacteristic dick. The classic Brigadier was a bit more ballsy, but back then the Doctor wasn't legendary.

[Loki]

UNIT got name checked a couple of time in the new series before it FINALLY showed up officially with "The Sontaran Stratagem/The Poison Sky" last year.

Strictly speaking, they first showed up in Aliens of London, as some of the experts on aliens were UNIT members, according to their passes. But you'd have to be fairly eagle eyed to pick up on that one.

[Toku King]

Strictly speaking, they first showed up in Aliens of London, as some of the experts on aliens were UNIT members, according to their passes. But you'd have to be fairly eagle eyed to pick up on that one.

Actually, the Doctor mentions that they're UNIT.

[king mob]

No, that's wrong. Let's say it's now, December 31, 2008. And you decide to go back to February 18, 1766. History books have recorded you as being there, so you HAVE to go now, on December 31, 2008.

Let's say someone kept a journal:
Feb. 17, 1766: Nothing happened.
Feb. 18, 1766: This fellow named AlistairCrane showed up.
Feb. 19, 1766: Nothing happened.

In order to be there on that date and not to mess up the time line, you are compelled to go back into the past. You were always there in the past, and now in the present, you MUST go back to the past because history recorded you as being there, or you will destroy the timeline.


You'd also have the basics of one of the best Day Today sketches. (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ob1rYlCpOnM)

[king mob]

The writers being anti-establishment lefties makes it amusing to hear that the Pertwee Doctor's been called the "establishment Doctor" by some fans - plus he isn't, he doesn't even show respect to the Brig and the Brig's paying his rent!

Pertwee's Doctor is proper old Labour, all rightous causes and angst. It's as far removed from the establishemtn of the time, not to mention now, as one can get. Even if a fan watches The Green Death they should get a very clear view of the politics of all concerned with Who at the time.

[king mob]

Quote:
By the way, I'm not meaning to sound like a bitch here if that's the way it comes off. It just blows my mind how long we here in America keep having to wait for these things.

That's what you all get for voting for Bush.

[Stressfactor]

That's what you all get for voting for Bush.

So when Obama takes office we'll get them faster?:biggrin:








And for the record, I NEVER voted for Shrub, son of Bush.

[Cyke]

Mace was trying to be respectful to the Doctor, but our beloved Timelord was being a bit of an uncharacteristic dick. The classic Brigadier was a bit more ballsy, but back then the Doctor wasn't legendary.

Yeah, Mace even saluted him a few times and treated him with awe at first, too. Even doe-eyed lovey-dovey Martha called the Doctor out on his dickish behavior.

[Stressfactor]

Live from the American Midwest.... Happy New Year to all you mad Whovians! May 2009 bring you blessings and happiness.

[king mob]

My wish for 2009 is for this hangover to go away.

[Toku King]

That's what you all get for voting for Bush.

You seem to forget that the people against him were even worse.

[Tik]

In regards to Gallifreys destruction in the Time War, there has been no evidence that it has been erased from time. Time Lords are still known to certain species for example....if they had been erased these people wouldn't know what a Time Lord was.

Gallifrey was destroyed once before in the novels. It was restored again at the end of it all (to be destroyed again in the Time War - RTD says he views the two destrucions of Gallifrey akin to us having two World Wars) but what I find intresting is that we find out what happens when Gallifrey is destroyed. The Gallifrey Chronicles state that Gallifrey had not been erased from history (as everyone had thought) but that an event horizon in relative time prevents anyone from Gallifrey's past to travel beyond Gallifrey's destruction, and prevents anyone that survived said destrucion traveling to Gallifrey's past.

In essence then, the Doctor cannot go back to save Gallifrey from the Time War. Not because it has been wiped from existance but because its destruction creates this event horizon that not even a TARDIS can bypass.

Edit: got some quotes....

"The destruction of the planet unleashed a vast ripple in the space-time continuum, one that makes it impossible to navigate or even see the area of destruction. Gallifrey cannot be observed at any point in its history. Not any more."

"The explosion must have created an event horizon in relative time. It prevents any information escaping, and anyone from travelling back to prevent it blowing up or anyone from Gallifrey's past escaping into the present."

[Charles RB]

Yeah, Mace even saluted him a few times and treated him with awe at first, too. Even doe-eyed lovey-dovey Martha called the Doctor out on his dickish behavior.

I love Mace finally snapping at the Doctor, ignoring his suggestions and then turning out to be right. That was great, especially after all the "oh you can't fight the Sontarans AT ALL don't bother stay home silly people" speeches.

(That's a thing that confuses me about NuWho - long screeds and whole eps focusing on how GREAT humanity is, and then there's other bits showing how we're all weak, incompetent beings who cannot do anything for ourselves or are total idiots. It's pretty schizophrenic.)

[Toku King]

That's a thing that confuses me about NuWho - long screeds and whole eps focusing on how GREAT humanity is, and then there's other bits showing how we're all weak, incompetent beings who cannot do anything for ourselves or are total idiots. It's pretty schizophrenic.)

It never shows us as weak. It shows that we are new in the universe, and we have much potential.

[Charles RB]

It never shows us as weak.

Every alien attack shows us as weak, because we utterly incapable of doing anything. We are shown as having plans and preparations in place, and they all fail and the Doctor tells us off for even trying sometimes.

Christmas Invasion was a bad one for that: humanity is incapable of defending itself, except for this one thing Jones/Torchwood have set up, and the Doctor is furious we have it and removes her for it. (Which actively gives the Master an opening and the Doctor's never shown any guilt for that...)

[Toku King]

Every alien attack shows us as weak, because we utterly incapable of doing anything. We are shown as having plans and preparations in place, and they all fail and the Doctor tells us off for even trying sometimes.

Not always, but only the ones that deserve it. We aren't weak, we're early bloomers. Do you fault the old series for this? Because they did the same thing. Very few times was humanity able to protect themselves.

Christmas Invasion was a bad one for that: humanity is incapable of defending itself, except for this one thing Jones/Torchwood have set up, and the Doctor is furious we have it and removes her for it. (Which actively gives the Master an opening and the Doctor's never shown any guilt for that...)

Could you think of a way of stopping them? No. Because we're new to this whole alien thing.

[Typo Lad]

Could you think of a way of stopping them? No. Because we're new to this whole alien thing.

But "we" did have a way. And the Doctor took it away.

[Charles RB]

And acted like we were wrong and monstrous for having it.

It would've come in really handy in Stolen Earth too...

[Toku King]

But "we" did have a way. And the Doctor took it away.

No, we still have the laser. Look at "The Poison Sky".

[Charles RB]

That's the same type of laser, but it's not the same one - far too small, and aiming down instead of up. (Based on Stolen Earth, there weren't any up-top defenses on the Valiant, that was bloody dumb)

[Cyke]

That's the same type of laser, but it's not the same one - far too small, and aiming down instead of up. (Based on Stolen Earth, there weren't any up-top defenses on the Valiant, that was bloody dumb)

The Valiant did have shields, though, which surprised the heck out of me. Then again, maybe I'm inconsistent with my beliefs, if old-Torchwood had a Death Star anti-starship weapon and I didn't bother to worry about defenses.

[Tik]

Every alien attack shows us as weak, because we utterly incapable of doing anything. We are shown as having plans and preparations in place, and they all fail and the Doctor tells us off for even trying sometimes.
Nonesense. We can defend ourselves, its just that we suffer more casualties along the way without the Doctors help. We've fought off alien threats without the Doctor you know. We have UNIT and Torchwood and Sarah Jane and, if you take the EU into account, even more organisations that fight off aliens. But if the enemy are sufficently advanced of course we're going to fail without the Doctor (eg against the Daleks).
Christmas Invasion was a bad one for that: humanity is incapable of defending itself, except for this one thing Jones/Torchwood have set up, and the Doctor is furious we have it and removes her for it. (Which actively gives the Master an opening and the Doctor's never shown any guilt for that...)
The Doctor isn't mad that we have the laser. He's mad at how Harriet Jones uses it.

He wouldn't be mad if it had been used before he had woken up, for example, or before they were defeated.

He might've been mad if he had won the sword fight, made peace with the Sycorax and made them vow never to return again whilst Harriet Jones wasn't there, didn't know this and thus used the laser as they retreated. He would've been mad like he used to get mad with the Brigadier ("Why didn't you wait?" etc) but he wouldn't have removed her from office for it (understandable and all that).

The reason the Doctor was mad was because Harriet Jones was there when he made peace with the Sycorax. She was there when he made them vow never to return again on their honour. She was there when he told the Sycorax to warn other would-be alien invaders that the Earth was protected. Despite all this, despite the fact that the Sycorax warning would help prevent any future invasion, she still shot them down. Thats why the Doctor was mad.....at that moment in time it was the worst thing do.

And the Master would have become Prime Minister anyway even if Harriet Jones was there.
But "we" did have a way. And the Doctor took it away
The Doctor didn't do anything to the laser. Why would he?

Key components of the laser system were destroyed in the crossfire between the Cybermen and Daleks at the Battle of Canery Wharf. Thats why we dont have the laser anymore.
Based on Stolen Earth, there weren't any up-top defenses on the Valiant, that was bloody dumb
The Valiant had shielding. And although the laser is used against ground targets, the Valiant also had a fair number of gun turrets pointing upwards as well as downwards (most probably projectile weaponary).

[Toku King]

Nonesense. We can defend ourselves, its just that we suffer more casualties along the way without the Doctors help. We've fought off alien threats without the Doctor you know. We have UNIT and Torchwood and Sarah Jane and, if you take the EU into account, even more organisations that fight off aliens. But if the enemy are sufficently advanced of course we're going to fail without the Doctor (eg against the Daleks).

Exactly. Earth has enough champions to take on all sorts of threats, such as the Trickster, the Bane, Mary, Abbadon, and so on. However, we aren't ready(and may never be) to take on enemies like the Daleks, the Sontarans, Sutekh, Omega, the Master, the Cybermen, the Nucleus, the Great One, the Axos, and others on that type of massive level.

[Charles RB]

We've fought off alien threats without the Doctor you know. We have UNIT and Torchwood and Sarah Jane

Sarah Jane and Torchwood barely count as "us" though, being highly specialised small units with alien technology and Doctor ties who stand apart from the rest of humanity. At times, they try to stop mainstream humanity knowing stuff (mainly Torchwood), which always got annoying.

UNIT should be capable of fighting off aliens without the Doctor but most of the time they've turned up, they've needed help to do the job they're supposed to be regularly doing. Poison Sky's the only exception in the last four years.

and, if you take the EU into account, even more organisations that fight off aliens. But if the enemy are sufficently advanced of course we're going to fail without the Doctor (eg against the Daleks).

The Doctor isn't mad that we have the laser. He's mad at how Harriet Jones uses it.

Yeah, but let's be honest: she was right, the Doctor isn't going to always be there and he just got the Sycorax to tell everyone Earth is defended... by him. A fuck-off great laser sends more of a "this planet is defended" message to any watching aliens.

Plus, c'mon, the Sycorax leader went back on his honour when he thought he could get away with it and Harriet saw that. There's no reason for her to assume they genuinely won't come back to the planet they think is an easy mark as long as they don't clash with that one guy again.

And the Master would have become Prime Minister anyway even if Harriet Jones was there.

No power vaccuum or collapsing government, no need for an election, no PM Saxon.

Key components of the laser system were destroyed in the crossfire between the Cybermen and Daleks at the Battle of Canery Wharf.

And they didn't get rebuilt? Unless the collapse of Harriet Jones specifically caused the laser to fall out of favour, that makes no sense, especially when the Valiant's copy shows that the laser is something we know how to build.

the Valiant also had a fair number of gun turrets pointing upwards as well as downwards (most probably projectile weaponary).

None of which were firing when it was being swarmed. (It's amazing the Daleks bothered sending so many of them to destroy it...)

[Charles RB]

Exactly. Earth has enough champions to take on all sorts of threats, such as the Trickster, the Bane, Mary, Abbadon, and so on. However, we aren't ready(and may never be) to take on enemies like the Daleks, the Sontarans, Sutekh, Omega, the Master, the Cybermen, the Nucleus, the Great One, the Axos, and others on that type of massive level.

How can we not be ready to take them on if we're ready to take on beings with the power of the Trickster and Abbadon? Especially when military force has been shown to be effective against Sontarans and Cybermen (very first UNIT story had the Doctor needing them to properly defeat the Cybermen).

[Cyke]

None of which were firing when it was being swarmed. (It's amazing the Daleks bothered sending so many of them to destroy it...)

To be fair, UNIT was one of their first targets, and in the past UNIT had anti-Dalek weaponry. Who knows what they would have had this time around, if they had a chance?

[Charles RB]

UNIT's anti-Dalek weaponry was surprisingly absent. Maybe they'd restocked since Battlefield and unfortunately had gone with the lowest bidder, so most of their new ammo turned up to be shit.

(Because damn it, why should UNIT work differently to the regular armies? :frown: )

[Tik]

Sarah Jane and Torchwood barely count as "us" though, being highly specialised small units with alien technology and Doctor ties who stand apart from the rest of humanity. At times, they try to stop mainstream humanity knowing stuff (mainly Torchwood), which always got annoying.

UNIT should be capable of fighting off aliens without the Doctor but most of the time they've turned up, they've needed help to do the job they're supposed to be regularly doing. Poison Sky's the only exception in the last four years
If these groups dont have alien tech like lasers, of course they aren't going to be able to defend themselves as well.

Torchwood also used to be a large organisation.

UNIT have beaten aliens without the Doctor being around. Just listen to the UNIT audios for example. The French division is NUIT, the Russion division is ОГРОН (OGRON), and the Asian division is UNIT-SEA.

Theres also Department C19.

LONGBOW is another organisation that was around before WW2 that clashed against alien threats, again without the Doctor.

Theres also a different group called UNISYC.

In a Doctor Who episode of course the story will revolve around the Doctor. If you want to know how efficient Earth forces can be without the Doctors help, other stories not featuring the Doctor are out there. Also, the episodes themselves contain clues....like all the alien tech they have. Alien tech they have not aquired with the Doctors help I might add.

Earth can defend itself. Humanity wouldn't have survived until the episode Utopia otherwise would they? Its just that there are aliens out there that vastly outgun/outsmart humans and that is when the Doctor is needed.

Yeah, but let's be honest: she was right, the Doctor isn't going to always be there and he just got the Sycorax to tell everyone Earth is defended... by him. A fuck-off great laser sends more of a "this planet is defended" message to any watching aliens.
And what aliens were watching?

Hmm.....none. Especially those in the general area where the Sycorax ship was travelling too. And especially not to the Sycorax armada who now could very well try to invade again in the future.

Harriet Jones has a point. Of course Earth needs to defend itself. If the Doctor disagreed he would have destroyed the laser wouldn't he? But he didn't.

The point of fact is, Harriet Jones was not protecting the Earth. She shot a retreating spaceship in the back knowing full well that there was a Sycorax armada out there who could find out about the atrocity and retaliate in force. The Sycorax were leaving, the Sycorax were defeated. What, prey tell, did destroying the ship accomplish? It didn't warn any other aliens, it didn't destroy an invading force, etc. It did bugger all except kill a ship load of fleeing aliens.

Harriet Jones's argument of Earth defense is correct. Her actions, however, were wrong.
Plus, c'mon, the Sycorax leader went back on his honour when he thought he could get away with it and Harriet saw that. There's no reason for her to assume they genuinely won't come back to the planet they think is an easy mark as long as they don't clash with that one guy again.
Harriet also saw every human/Time Lord get off the Sycorax ship without being attacked. She saw the ship retreat. She had the other Sycorax's vow of honour.

If the rest of the Sycorax were as corrupt/dishonest as their former leader, they would've just killed them all and summoned the armarda. But they didn't! And Harriet should have known this. She made an error of judgment. She could've brought an armarda of Sycorax ships to Earth seeking vengence....they may even arrive one day in the future.

The Doctor knew the Sycorax would keep their word and keep the rest of the armarda away from Earth. Thats one of the reasons he was so mad.
No power vaccuum or collapsing government, no need for an election, no PM Saxon.
Are you seriously suggesting that would stop the Master?

"Hmm, my plan involves being the Prime Minister....but they already have one. Harriet Jones is there and there isn't some convinient power vaccuum. Damn, thats my plan gone up in smoke! I'll turn myself in now!"

He could easily create the power vaccuum himself and accomplish his plans.
And they didn't get rebuilt? Unless the collapse of Harriet Jones specifically caused the laser to fall out of favour, that makes no sense, especially when the Valiant's copy shows that the laser is something we know how to build.
Torchwood 1 was closed after the vast majority of it was destroyed and when most of its staff were killed. They couldn't rebuild it.....there was nothing salvagable to rebuild.

UNIT salvaged their own laser independently from Torchwood.
None of which were firing when it was being swarmed. (It's amazing the Daleks bothered sending so many of them to destroy it...)
Well, the Daleks destroyed it very quickly. Took them 5 seconds to bring its shields down.

[Cyke]

UNIT's anti-Dalek weaponry was surprisingly absent. Maybe they'd restocked since Battlefield and unfortunately had gone with the lowest bidder, so most of their new ammo turned up to be shit.

(Because damn it, why should UNIT work differently to the regular armies? :frown: )

Or maybe the Daleks came in so swiftly and quickly that UNIT never had a chance? Not that their anti-Dalek weaponry would've made a difference in the long run, but they weren't granted a chance to regroup.

[king mob]

(That's a thing that confuses me about NuWho - long screeds and whole eps focusing on how GREAT humanity is, and then there's other bits showing how we're all weak, incompetent beings who cannot do anything for ourselves or are total idiots. It's pretty schizophrenic.)

It's a bit odd but it's got more schizophrenic during Tennat's era, Eccleston's time had it much clearer than it is now. It's also puzzling how one minute RTD is saying that eating chips and watching Corrie is brillliannnt, and the next it's the grimmest fate one can suffer.

[king mob]

It never shows us as weak. It shows that we are new in the universe, and we have much potential.


The whole point of Turn Left is to show us as weak and incapable of doing things properly without the Doctor. It even shows us as slipping into a facist state and sending amiable Italian sterotypes to deathcamps, that's as damning a observation upon humanity as Nu Who has come up with so far.

[king mob]

I've watched Battlefield and it's a bit rubbish but it's harmless fun rubbish. However as Charles says, the commentary is worth the money alone and is a quite brilliant bit of piss taking from all involved.

[Toku King]

The whole point of Turn Left is to show us as weak and incapable of doing things properly without the Doctor.

You completely missed the point of the episode and my last post, then.

[Toku King]

How can we not be ready to take them on if we're ready to take on beings with the power of the Trickster and Abbadon? Especially when military force has been shown to be effective against Sontarans and Cybermen (very first UNIT story had the Doctor needing them to properly defeat the Cybermen).

Because the Trickster and Abbadon aren't on that level of holy shit that the Doctor's foes are on. Hell, Abbadon was like a lesser Beast or Daemon.
The Doctor needed UNIT's help on the Cybermen just as much as it was the other way around, and the Sontarans still would've won without the Doctor.

[king mob]

New Doctor to be announced tomorrow.

The name of the actor who will replace David Tennant as Doctor Who will be announced on Saturday.

Tennant said in October that he would stand down from the show after filming four special episodes in 2009.

His replacement - the eleventh Doctor of the TV series - will be revealed in a Doctor Who Confidential programme on BBC One at 1735 on 3 January.

The casting was confirmed over Christmas and filming for the 2010 series begins in the summer.

Tennant is due to begin shooting the first of his four specials this month, just weeks after surgery on his back.

The last of these episodes is expected to run in early 2010.

'Nail-biting Christmas'

The casting decision has been a priority for the show's new creative team, led by executive producers Steven Moffat and Piers Wenger.

The BBC said that in Saturday's Doctor Who special "the actor playing the new Doctor will be giving his or her initial reaction" to becoming TV's most famous time traveller.

Wenger, head of drama at BBC Wales, said: "We believe the actor is going to bring something very special to the role and will make it absolutely their own.

"I just can't wait to tell everyone who it is - it has been a nail-biting Christmas trying to keep this under wraps!"

Shortly after Tennant's announcement, bookmakers were tipping several well-known names as the next actor (or actress) to step into the Tardis.

Murphy's Law and Cold Feet star James Nesbitt emerged as one of the favourites, along with Paterson Joseph, John Simm and David Morrissey - who appeared in the 2008 Christmas special.

Paterson Joseph, who recently starred in Survivors and appeared in two Doctor Who episodes in 2005, has said "any actor would love the challenge" of playing the Time Lord.

Bookmakers made him an early favourite - offering odds of 3-1 on him becoming the first black Doctor.

Comedian Jennifer Saunders, former Doctor Who assistant Billie Piper and film star Catherine Zeta Jones have also been mentioned in connection with the role.

The show's outgoing executive producer Russell T Davies said last month: "Whoever becomes the Doctor has got to take on a whole life. It's not just becoming a part of a TV show."

In October, when Tennant was asked who he thought should replace him, he joked: "Well, I've always been a big supporter of Wee Jimmy Krankie!"

Doctor Who began in 1963, and seven actors played the Doctor before the show was dropped in 1989.

After a TV movie in 1996 - starring Paul McGann - the TV series returned in 2005 with Christopher Eccleston in the lead role. Tennant took over the role the same year.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/7807742.stm

[Charles RB]

Or maybe the Daleks came in so swiftly and quickly that UNIT never had a chance? Not that their anti-Dalek weaponry would've made a difference in the long run, but they weren't granted a chance to regroup.

Point.

We never do see Mace, so I like to think he and his lot were one of the few UNIT groups lucky enough to be near to anti-Dalek weaponry at the time. Lots of unprepared Daleks were told to face him...

It's also puzzling how one minute RTD is saying that eating chips and watching Corrie is brillliannnt, and the next it's the grimmest fate one can suffer.

That too, that gets weird. Which is it Russ, is normal life fine or is it a grim hell we should hate? Or is it something that's fine for little people but not for the cast because they're special?

He's very consistent in showing us that every women's mother sucks though.

The whole point of Turn Left is to show us as weak and incapable of doing things properly without the Doctor.

Also that Russell forgot he wrote the Titanic capable of blowing up the whole planet and London being empty in the story he had air just six months before. (WHOOPS.)

[king mob]

You completely missed the point of the episode and my last post, then.

Not at all, Turn Left is there to show us what happens to us without the guidance of the Doctor, it also ties into the whole 'The Doctor is Christ' metaphor that RTD has scattered throughout Nu Who. It shows us not as a young race, but as a bumch of wankers who'll turn to the facists (hence why Donna turning right is RTD making the point clearer for those who missed it) at the slightest sign of things going wrong.

It's a good episode and one worth watching for the layers that RTD put in it, not that it's without flaws & it certainly doesn't match his script for Midnight.

[Charles RB]

Because the Trickster and Abbadon aren't on that level of holy shit that the Doctor's foes are on.

The Trickster warps reality itself! He can casually arrange for multiple hostile races to never even turn up! It's quite likely he could fuck up the Daleks, though he'd need someone to give him an in first.

[king mob]

That too, that gets weird. Which is it Russ, is normal life fine or is it a grim hell we should hate? Or is it something that's fine for little people but not for the cast because they're special?

It's confusing isn't it. In series one being normal is great but by series 4 living out a normal life is a fate worse than death.

He's very consistent in showing us that every women's mother sucks though.

That's one of the dubious bits of sexual politics that Nu Who has though. To have all three main companions of the new series have dodgy annoying mothers is iffy. It's as if RTD is using old Bernard Manning mother in law jokes as his point of reference.



Also that Russell forgot he wrote the Titanic capable of blowing up the whole planet and London being empty in the story he had air just six months before. (WHOOPS.)


Oh yeah, I never noticed that.

[king mob]

The Guardian has more on tomorrow night's announcement.

The identity of David Tennant's replacement as Doctor Who will be revealed in a BBC1 show to be broadcast tomorrow – and simulcast live on the BBC's big outdoor screens in cities around the country.

It is understood that those hoping for the first female doctor will be disappointed. Doctor Who's new executive producers, Coupling creator Steven Moffat and BBC Wales head of drama Piers Wenger are said to have stuck with tradition and cast a man in the role.

However, Moffat and Wenger are thought to have steered away from the more obvious names that have been linked to the role.

Tennant's replacement will be unveiled in an edition of Doctor Who Confidential to be broadcast on BBC1 at 5.35pm on Saturday, 3 January, featuring an interview with the actor who is to be the 11th doctor in the long-running BBC1 sci fi drama, successfully revived by the corporation in 2005.

The show will also be broadcast live on BBC outdoor screens around the country in city centre locations including Hull, Liverpool, Rotherham, Swindon, Swansea, Norwich and Walthamstow.

Tomorrow's announcement will put to an end months of speculation over who will take over from Tennant, who confirmed live on air during ITV1's National Television Awards at the end of October that he will step down from the starring role in Doctor Who after a series of specials to be broadcast next year.

In recent weeks prominent actors including James Nesbitt, David Walliams and David Morrissey, who starred alongside Tennant in the Christmas Day Doctor Who special, have been linked with the role by bookmakers.

Less obvious names mentioned as potential replacements for Tennant have included Paterson Joseph, perhaps best known as Johnson in Peep Show, and more recently seen in BBC1's Survivors; Dirty Pretty Things actor Chiwetel Ejiofor; Ben Wishaw, whose credits include Criminal Justice; and Russell Tovey, who was in last year's Doctor Who Christmas special and also appeared in recent BBC1 Dickens adaptation Little Dorrit.

"We believe the actor is going to bring something very special to the role and will make it absolutely their own. It has been a nail-biting Christmas trying to keep this under wraps," Wenger said.

The BBC added that choosing the next Doctor Who now was "job number one" so that scripts could be finalised and shooting could begin in the summer on series five of the show for broadcast in 2010, even though Tennant will not bow out until the Christmas 2009 special.



http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2009/jan/02/doctor-who-bbc

Having open air screenings is brave considering how bloody cold it's been, but fair play to the BBC for making this a huge event tomorrow.

I've not heard Chiwetel Ejiofor's name being mentioned before but he's a splendid choice. Wishaw is a bit young and a bit too like Tennant, same with Tovey.
However the bookies favourite is Patterson Joseph, with some bookies apparently stopping taking bets on him.

We'll find out tomorrow evening.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

New Doctor to be announced tomorrow.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/7807742.stm

The Guardian has more on tomorrow night's announcement.



http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2009/jan/02/doctor-who-bbc

Having open air screenings is brave considering how bloody cold it's been, but fair play to the BBC for making this a huge event tomorrow.

I've not heard Chiwetel Ejiofor's name being mentioned before but he's a splendid choice. Wishaw is a bit young and a bit too like Tennant, same with Tovey.
However the bookies favourite is Patterson Joseph, with some bookies apparently stopping taking bets on him.

We'll find out tomorrow evening.

Ohhh I am so intriqued. Its like they pulled perhaps a good old fashioned swerve on fans with Joseph. I can't wait.... any pics of the potential Doctor's ?

[Sean Walsh]

....are bookies in the UK actually taking money for who the new Doctor will be?

Wow. They must really like that show over the pond there... :smile:

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I really hope the next Doctor can do facial reactions when he's scared like Patrick Troughton did. I always enjoyed seeing his facial reactions and all. He ranks up there beside the 4th as my favorite thus far !


http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j11/devansb/patrick_troughton.jpg

[Deathstroke]

Well, I'm going to be gone all day tomorrow at basketball, but the news of the 11th Doctor casting will have me looking forward to coming home!

[Stressfactor]

I, personally, like Patterson Joseph's sinister side. I think I would like to see a Doctor who could be a bit sinister again. Tennant was all right doing the whole 'angry bugger' thing occasionally, but I'd like to see a Doctor who would smile and speak softly as he slips the knife between the baddies' ribs (metphorically speaking).

If anyone's seen that scene in "The Fugitive" where Tommy Lee Jones's character has shot an escaped criminal who was holding a gun on another U.S. Marshall. After basically shooting right past the hostage Marshall's head said Marshall is outside complaining that he can't hear out of the ear the shot went past and also bitching a bit about Jones's character's behavior in taking the risk. Jones walks right up to the guy and speaks softly into his ear and says "Can you hear this?" When the guy says 'yes' Jones whispers "I. Don't. Bargain." It is totally chilling simply because of Jones's delivery. Sometimes a soft word is scarier than all the angry ranting in the world.

THAT'S what I would love to see with the next Doctor.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I have a question for people who may know. In the "The Keeper of Traken" it says the episode was written by a Johnny Byrne. Is that the John Byrne who we all know from Fantastic Four and Superman ?

[Tadhg]

I have a question for people who may know. In the "The Keeper of Traken" it says the episode was written by a Johnny Byrne. Is that the John Byrne who we all know from Fantastic Four and Superman ?

No. He was an Irish television writer that passed away in 2008.

[Charles RB]

That's one of the dubious bits of sexual politics that Nu Who has though. To have all three main companions of the new series have dodgy annoying mothers is iffy.

And worse, it means we have to suffer through those characters every time the companions go home.

And I just realised Maria Jackson in Sarah Jane Adventures has one of those mothers as well, and she turns up in almost every story Maria's in when her family are meant to be divorced. That was just bizarre.

Oh yeah, I never noticed that.

I noticed that one a lot. Very inconsistent.

....are bookies in the UK actually taking money for who the new Doctor will be?

Hey, money's money!

I'd like to see a Doctor who would smile and speak softly as he slips the knife between the baddies' ribs (metphorically speaking).

Also that moment in Fenric where the Doctor says "kill her" and you can believe he means it.

[Toku King]

The Trickster warps reality itself! He can casually arrange for multiple hostile races to never even turn up! It's quite likely he could fuck up the Daleks, though he'd need someone to give him an in first.

Too bad the Trickster was a moron. Power means nothing when you can't use it right.

[Toku King]

Not at all, Turn Left is there to show us what happens to us without the guidance of the Doctor, it also ties into the whole 'The Doctor is Christ' metaphor that RTD has scattered throughout Nu Who.

1) You did miss my point.
2) Man's at early stages. We can't handle everything.
3) We can face certain opponents at this point, but you seem to expect us to be able to take everything on. If we could, the Doctor would be obsolete, now wouldn't he? We can face lesser enemies, but guys like the Cybermen, the Master, and Sutekh? We can't do it yet.
4) The episode was thre to show how we would be if Donna never met the Doctor, not if the Doctor was gone himself.

[Charles RB]

4) The episode was thre to show how we would be if Donna never met the Doctor, not if the Doctor was gone himself.

But is also showed what would happen if the Doctor himself was gone, and what happens when the Doctor himself is gone is that Earth gets the shit kicked out of it and humanity turns on itself quite nastily.

[Tadhg]

4) The episode was thre to show how we would be if Donna never met the Doctor, not if the Doctor was gone himself.

That doesn't really hold since the major change that happened was the Doctor's death. It was to show how important Donna was to the Doctor and thus the world.

[Matt]

I've watched Battlefield and it's a bit rubbish but it's harmless fun rubbish. However as Charles says, the commentary is worth the money alone and is a quite brilliant bit of piss taking from all involved.

I liked the story itself, the budget just needed a major boost.

It does, on the very positive side, have some of the best Brigadier scenes in the entire series.

"Are you the best this world can offer?"
"No, probably not. I just do the best I can."

Also the Brig punching the Doctor out so he can go on a suicide run to defeat the Destroyer was just ballsy.

[Toku King]

But is also showed what would happen if the Doctor himself was gone, and what happens when the Doctor himself is gone is that Earth gets the shit kicked out of it and humanity turns on itself quite nastily.

...You didn't read the entire post, did you?

[Toku King]

I really hope the next Doctor can do facial reactions when he's scared like Patrick Troughton did. I always enjoyed seeing his facial reactions and all. He ranks up there beside the 4th as my favorite thus far !


http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j11/devansb/patrick_troughton.jpg

I'm currently watching "War Games" and damn, the 2nd Doctor was awesome!

[Toku King]

That doesn't really hold since the major change that happened was the Doctor's death. It was to show how important Donna was to the Doctor and thus the world.

Exactly my point.

[Stressfactor]

I'm currently watching "War Games" and damn, the 2nd Doctor was awesome!
Yes, yes he was.

I think my favorite bits are still from "Tomb of the Cybermen"

2nd: I have my own, special method.
Klieg: May we ask what that is?
2nd: Keeping my eyes open and my mouth shut.

2nd: Well now I know you're mad, I just wanted to make sure.

[Charles RB]

Also the Brig punching the Doctor out so he can go on a suicide run to defeat the Destroyer was just ballsy.

His reason for not being dead is great too - "You didn't really expect me to stay inside that, did you?".

...You didn't read the entire post, did you?

I did. Point still stands - the episode shows, in great detail, humanity getting the shit kicked out of it and turning on itself nastily because the Doctor's not around.

[Captain Jim]

interesting promo video:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=kl6lMClFu8c

[Matt]

With the events of "Journey's End" you'd think the Doctor would stop and ponder on a few things, some new information that has come to hand.

A lone Dalek (with no apparent outside assistance) doing an emergency temporal jump managed to get through any barriers surrounding the Time War and rescue Davros.

True, the act cost said Dalek it's sanity and apparently shattered parts of it's outer casing but:

* A TARDIS is a lot tougher than Dalek casing.
* The Dalek's trip was unplanned, any TARDIS based venture certainly could be.

Breaching whatever barriers are around the Time War is clearly not impossible; it has been done and in a very impromptu manner by a race with inferior Time Travel technology to the Doctor. What's stopping him (apart from plot necessity) doing something similar to Caan? It might make for an interesting season long sub plot ... researching, gathering supplies, debating the morality of it all, etc.

[Charles RB]

It hadn't occured to me that this means he knows he can go into the Time War and change things/get others out. Shouldn't this be something he's obsessed with?

[SUPERECWFAN1]

With the events of "Journey's End" you'd think the Doctor would stop and ponder on a few things, some new information that has come to hand.

A lone Dalek (with no apparent outside assistance) doing an emergency temporal jump managed to get through any barriers surrounding the Time War and rescue Davros.

True, the act cost said Dalek it's sanity and apparently shattered parts of it's outer casing but:

* A TARDIS is a lot tougher than Dalek casing.
* The Dalek's trip was unplanned, any TARDIS based venture certainly could be.

Breaching whatever barriers are around the Time War is clearly not impossible; it has been done and in a very impromptu manner by a race with inferior Time Travel technology to the Doctor. What's stopping him (apart from plot necessity) doing something similar to Caan? It might make for an interesting season long sub plot ... researching, gathering supplies, debating the morality of it all, etc.

I think that they could use a resolution to the whole "Time War" to help think a way outta the 12th doctor's final regeneration of life by resolving this plot. Thats my idea.

[Toku King]

I did. Point still stands - the episode shows, in great detail, humanity getting the shit kicked out of it and turning on itself nastily because the Doctor's not around.

No, you didn't read it, apparently.

We can face certain opponents at this point, but you seem to expect us to be able to take everything on. If we could, the Doctor would be obsolete, now wouldn't he? We can face lesser enemies, but guys like the Cybermen, the Master, and Sutekh? We can't do it yet.

[Stressfactor]

But we weren't really facing the 'big guns' in "Turn Left" -- we had a bunch of stupid Sontarans ("Back of the neck"), some Judoon who kidnapped a hospital, and a space-going Titanic... and we STILL decended into anarchy.

[Captain Jim]

With the events of "Journey's End" you'd think the Doctor would stop and ponder on a few things, some new information that has come to hand.

A lone Dalek (with no apparent outside assistance) doing an emergency temporal jump managed to get through any barriers surrounding the Time War and rescue Davros.

True, the act cost said Dalek it's sanity and apparently shattered parts of it's outer casing but:

* A TARDIS is a lot tougher than Dalek casing.
* The Dalek's trip was unplanned, any TARDIS based venture certainly could be.

Breaching whatever barriers are around the Time War is clearly not impossible; it has been done and in a very impromptu manner by a race with inferior Time Travel technology to the Doctor. What's stopping him (apart from plot necessity) doing something similar to Caan? It might make for an interesting season long sub plot ... researching, gathering supplies, debating the morality of it all, etc.

I've thought about this a lot. We've been told that both the Time Lord race and the Dalek race were destroyed by the time war. Presumably, the only time lord that survived the time war, other than the Doctor, was the Master (who ran and hid). On the other hand, since that time we've seen hundreds or thousands of daleks on various occasions. Something is wrong with this picture.

[Charles RB]

No, you didn't read it, apparently.

No, I read that.

But it doesn't prove me wrong: humanity getting the shit kicked out of it and turning on itself nastily because the Doctor's not around. We're not just shown as unable to take everything on, we can't take anything on. And we inevitably turn into murderous bastards.

But we weren't really facing the 'big guns' in "Turn Left" -- we had a bunch of stupid Sontarans ("Back of the neck"), some Judoon who kidnapped a hospital, and a space-going Titanic... and we STILL decended into anarchy.

Also the Adipose, who somehow nobody thought looked suspicious and investigated in either timeline even though one had just suffered a major alien-caused disaster and America would surely be watching extremely carefully.

...actually, with Sarah Jane and kids dead that soon, logically one or more of their episodes went unstopped too. And without Martha, different stuff should've happened with Torchwood which should impact on the outcomes of their episodes. No sign of either (and this despite Sarah Jane's absence dooming Earth to a meteorite in one story and meaning the Slitheen & Mr Smith should still be active in another....).

God, I wish I hadn't started noticing this stuff. :frown:

Presumably, the only time lord that survived the time war, other than the Doctor, was the Master (who ran and hid). On the other hand, since that time we've seen hundreds or thousands of daleks on various occasions.

Two of the times, they were Daleks created after the Time War.

Though in the second, they were Daleks who'd been in a Time Lord prison, which could mean there's others...

Quite why the Time Lords didn't also have people who crashed screaming into linear time or hid in a Void Ship (or equivalent), I have no idea.

[Ontir]

I think that they could use a resolution to the whole "Time War" to help think a way outta the 12th doctor's final regeneration of life by resolving this plot. Thats my idea.

The Time War IS a resolution, so they don't have to deal with the question of former Doctors turning up, looking all old. They did, however, bring Davison in, and apparently that's meant to be in-continuity. While I wouldn't have done it, it does offer a way around the 12 regenerations: If it was Davison's "Doctor" and not McGann's or Eccleston's that survived the Time War, then there could be a paradox. With the regenerations we've known sequestered away behind "an iron curtain of time," Davison's "Doctor" could've lived on, in a different time-line from that which existed before his involvement in the war. When he regenerated, it was under different circumstances, and he became a different "Doctor." Instead of Colin Baker's, who still exists within the War, he became Eccleston's, which means Tennant's "Doctor" is the 7th, not the 10th.

Regardless, they don't have to come up with an explanation until the end of the 13th Doctor's run, assuming Hartnell WAS the first.

[Matt]

I have to go with Charles on this one;

It seems that without the Doctor about, even relatively low scale events (such as the Titanic crash or Sontarans) result in humanity descending way down the scale of acceptable societal standards.

[Stressfactor]

I hate to say his Ontir but you're really the only one advocating for that particular theory.

and there WAS an explanation for why Davison looked older -- when he was brought forward the time differential slipped aging his body -- same explanation could be used for any other Doctors they wanted to bring forward. The 4th Doctor was prematurely aged in "the Leisure Hive" as well so there is precedent for Time Lords being subject to the vagaries of the aging process and the fact that they CAN be forceably aged and then put back to their 'younger' ages later.

[Paul McEnery]

I have to go with Charles on this one;

It seems that without the Doctor about, even relatively low scale events (such as the Titanic crash or Sontarans) result in humanity descending way down the scale of acceptable societal standards.

Well, yeah, but what would be the point of a hero if that weren't the case?

If it weren't for James Bond, we'd be overrun by communists and mad scientists!

[Charles RB]

It seems that without the Doctor about, even relatively low scale events (such as the Titanic crash or Sontarans) result in humanity descending way down the scale of acceptable societal standards.

Though I'm still confused and amused to find Sarah Jane and Torchwood are so irrelevant that they could die and it wouldn't affect anything on Earth (confused in Sarah's case, bloody amused in Torchwood's).


If it weren't for James Bond, we'd be overrun by communists and mad scientists!

Yeah, but the trains would run on time and they'd be flying quantum-powered trains. Why do you hate us, Bond?

[Stressfactor]

As far as breaking though the Time Wall... I would think it would stay in the back of the Doctor's mind but I would also imagine there would be some level of trepidation for him to consider trying to 'save' any of the Time Lords.

I COULD certainly see the 'rescue' of some or all of the Time Lords being used to get out of the 13 life limit. And they don't even have to bring back ALL of the Time Lords or Gallifrey. They could have the Doctor only able to save some of them and not be able to bring the planet back leaving a handful of Time Lords as kind of intergalactic refugees without a home and without all of their much-vaunted technology -- it could lead to some interesting stories as the once-powerful Time Lords are now reduced to living on the fringes.


And on another note... If you can DO pick up the IDW comic book mini-series "Doctor Who: The Forgotten" it's turning into a really good story and this last issue had the Doctor remebering an incident as his 8th self during the Time War. It would seem that the Key of Rassilon was one of the components used to destroy Gallifrey and the Daleks and that the instrument used was on the same lines of the Demat Gun that was used in "The Invasion of Time".

[Paul McEnery]

Though I'm still confused and amused to find Sarah Jane and Torchwood are so irrelevant that they could die and it wouldn't affect anything on Earth (confused in Sarah's case, bloody amused in Torchwood's).



Yeah, but the trains would run on time and they'd be flying quantum-powered trains. Why do you hate us, Bond?

Buses are already quantum, and see where that gets us.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

The Time War IS a resolution, so they don't have to deal with the question of former Doctors turning up, looking all old. They did, however, bring Davison in, and apparently that's meant to be in-continuity. While I wouldn't have done it, it does offer a way around the 12 regenerations: If it was Davison's "Doctor" and not McGann's or Eccleston's that survived the Time War, then there could be a paradox. With the regenerations we've known sequestered away behind "an iron curtain of time," Davison's "Doctor" could've lived on, in a different time-line from that which existed before his involvement in the war. When he regenerated, it was under different circumstances, and he became a different "Doctor." Instead of Colin Baker's, who still exists within the War, he became Eccleston's, which means Tennant's "Doctor" is the 7th, not the 10th.

Regardless, they don't have to come up with an explanation until the end of the 13th Doctor's run, assuming Hartnell WAS the first.

I hate to say his Ontir but you're really the only one advocating for that particular theory.

and there WAS an explanation for why Davison looked older -- when he was brought forward the time differential slipped aging his body -- same explanation could be used for any other Doctors they wanted to bring forward. The 4th Doctor was prematurely aged in "the Leisure Hive" as well so there is precedent for Time Lords being subject to the vagaries of the aging process and the fact that they CAN be forceably aged and then put back to their 'younger' ages later.

As far as breaking though the Time Wall... I would think it would stay in the back of the Doctor's mind but I would also imagine there would be some level of trepidation for him to consider trying to 'save' any of the Time Lords.

I COULD certainly see the 'rescue' of some or all of the Time Lords being used to get out of the 13 life limit. And they don't even have to bring back ALL of the Time Lords or Gallifrey. They could have the Doctor only able to save some of them and not be able to bring the planet back leaving a handful of Time Lords as kind of intergalactic refugees without a home and without all of their much-vaunted technology -- it could lead to some interesting stories as the once-powerful Time Lords are now reduced to living on the fringes.


And on another note... If you can DO pick up the IDW comic book mini-series "Doctor Who: The Forgotten" it's turning into a really good story and this last issue had the Doctor remebering an incident as his 8th self during the Time War. It would seem that the Key of Rassilon was one of the components used to destroy Gallifrey and the Daleks and that the instrument used was on the same lines of the Demat Gun that was used in "The Invasion of Time".


I think Stressfactor is right in a way Ontir. I mean sure the theory sounds great to long time Who fans and has a great reset button ahead. But for newer fans who just came along...try explaining that theory on a TV show. Its gonna throw them for a big loop.

I think they'll need to go with a resolution within this series to be honest.

[ChrisIII]

The new Doctor is going to be announced tomorrow!


oops, somebody beat me to it ....

[Frank K]

I just read on the BBC website that the 11th Doctor will be announced tomorrow. Can't wait.

Sorry. It's already been posted.

[StoneGold]

I just read...


No I didn't. I just wanted in on the fun.

[Tobias March]

Who!?!?!?!?!?!

[StoneGold]

Who!?!?!?!?!?!

No, just the Doctor.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Ok I just finished up watching the end of the Baker years of Who and watched the 1st 2 1st Davison "Who" parts. I hope no one takes this as a complaint towards female companions asserting themselves but did anyone wanna strangle Tegan and Adric ? Because damn it.... after "Castrovalva" & "Four to Doomsday" I really wish the Doctor would strand them somewhere. :wink:

[Paul McEnery]

Ok I just finished up watching the end of the Baker years of Who and watched the 1st 2 1st Davison "Who" parts. I hope no one takes this as a complaint towards female companions asserting themselves but did anyone wanna strangle Tegan and Adric ? Because damn it.... after "Castrovalva" & "Four to Doomsday" I really wish the Doctor would strand them somewhere. :wink:

Yes, I did want to strangle Tegan. In very specific circumstances, and in a totally non-lethal way.

Adric -- any circumstances at all, so long as they were lethal.

[king mob]

....are bookies in the UK actually taking money for who the new Doctor will be?

Wow. They must really like that show over the pond there... :smile:

Bookies can take a bet on almost anything over here, and they've been taking bets on who'll be the new Doctor as far back as I can remember.

[king mob]

1) You did miss my point.
Nope.



4) The episode was thre to show how we would be if Donna never met the Doctor, not if the Doctor was gone himself.

You miss the point: the episode showed what would happen to a world where there was no Doctor. The Doctor was absent from the episode and we saw the effects of his absence and it showed us up badly.

[king mob]

I liked the story itself, the budget just needed a major boost.


Aaronovitch is correct when he says on the DVD that it needed more than a decent budget, it needed a major rewrite or even to remain a three-parter as he'd originally written it. It does fall apart during the third episode but I think he's being a tad harsh on it when he says it's the worst thing he did for Who. It's watchable, enjoyable nonsense and that's more than can be said of most Who stories in it's last few years.


It does, on the very positive side, have some of the best Brigadier scenes in the entire series.

"Are you the best this world can offer?"
"No, probably not. I just do the best I can."

Also the Brig punching the Doctor out so he can go on a suicide run to defeat the Destroyer was just ballsy.


The Brig is great in it, though the idea of killing him off would have worked and possibly raised the story. Again, Aaronovitch points out that not killing the Brig is why the fourth episode is so weak.

[king mob]

I think Stressfactor is right in a way Ontir. I mean sure the theory sounds great to long time Who fans and has a great reset button ahead. But for newer fans who just came along...try explaining that theory on a TV show. Its gonna throw them for a big loop.

I think they'll need to go with a resolution within this series to be honest.


They'll just throw him a new set of regenerations and be done with it. That is assuming it's still a popular programme and it's still pulling in an average of 8 million each week.

[Toku King]

Nope.

You completely missed it.
READ IT AGAIN.

[Toku King]

You miss the point: the episode showed what would happen to a world where there was no Doctor. The Doctor was absent from the episode and we saw the effects of his absence and it showed us up badly.

That wasn't even the point! The point was to show Donna's necessity to the Doctor, then showing earth without him in the process. And like I said that you completely missed, we're new to this universe. We're capable of handling threats like the Bane, but we can only go so far. Otherwise, the Doctor would be obsolete.

[Stressfactor]

That wasn't even the point! The point was to show Donna's necessity to the Doctor, then showing earth without him in the process. And like I said that you completely missed, we're new to this universe. We're capable of handling threats like the Bane, but we can only go so far. Otherwise, the Doctor would be obsolete.

Toku King, I think we're all just going to have to agree to disagree. Sure, in the story, Donna was vital because she initially stopped the Doctor from dying while stopping the Racnoss invasion BUT it doesn't change the fact that humanity got the crap kicked out of them.

As for being 'young' and not ready to handle stuff -- Dude! We've been being invaded since the 1960's! How much more ready do we need to be?! PLUS, the Doctor shouldn't be having to run around ALWAYS saving the Earth -- there are TONS of other planets out there that need saving too. The Earth capable of taking care of itself would NOT make the Doctor obsolete. In fact, the best stories would show the Doctor NOT stepping in to save the day but rather POINTING humanity on the path to save ITSELF. In other words "teach, don't do".

AND, like I said we were shown as incapable of handling the Judoon without losing Sarah Jane and her Scooby Gang and incapable of handling the Sontarans without losing what's left of Torchwood -- and Torchwood IS (sort of) trained in monster fighting AND had Jack Harkness who has had a lot more experience with futuristic and alien weapons as well as alien races. And neither the Judoon nor the Sontarans are that big of baddies.

And on top of all of that, the Earth didn't even GET fully invaded and it decended into internment camps and hinted at worse. The episode showed that not only can't we cope we can't even pick up the pieces decently.

The episode didn't JUST show how important Donna is to the Doctor, it showed how important ANY one, single person may be to the future AND it served to show the kind of person Donna COULD have become vs. the kind of person she DID become and the person she DID become was down to the Doctor's influence in her life.

That's also when "Who" is at its best -- NOT when showing the Doctor running around saving entire planets but when they show the Doctor having an impact in shaping one, individual life -- the Doctor changing hearts and minds, making people see reason and the error of their ways or encouraging them to stand up and fight for themselves. Take a look at "Vengenace on Varos" -- at the beginning the Governor is just as into the torture and killing for entertainment as everyone else but the Doctor and Peri help him put a human face BACK on the horror and they help him re-discover his own lost humanity, compassion, and mercy and in the end he is ready and capable of changing his planet's whole social culture himself. Take a look at "The Sunmakers" when the Doctor, sure, comes up with the PLAN for the rebellion but in the end the people themselves have to organize, they have to DECIDE to take the risk and rebel for THEMSELVES.

[Toku King]

Toku King, I think we're all just going to have to agree to disagree.

It's not a matter of opinion! It's what is laid down for the story.

[king mob]

That wasn't even the point! The point was to show Donna's necessity to the Doctor, then showing earth without him in the process. And like I said that you completely missed, we're new to this universe. We're capable of handling threats like the Bane, but we can only go so far. Otherwise, the Doctor would be obsolete.

Stress has posted the perfect answer but you really need to see the episode for what it was: a tale of what would happen in a world without the Doctor & how it affects the world. Yes, the 'Doctor needing Donna' thing was one of the points, but it wasn't the main drive of the plot.

The whole 'but we're young' thing is nonsense and even if one's only watched Nu Who, it makes it clear that we've been dealing with alien threats for years and we have ways to deal with. These may not be ways that the Doctor approves of, but we're far from being the virginal race completely unaware of what's out there.

The title gives away RTD's intention; it's called 'Turn Left' to make the point that should a society go wrong and turn right, then it'll do evil bad things. It's a bit sixth form politics but considering that it's a kids programme we shouldn't expect Alan Bleasdale type drama.

[Toku King]

Stress has posted the perfect answer but you really need to see the episode for what it was: a tale of what would happen in a world without the Doctor & how it affects the world. Yes, the 'Doctor needing Donna' thing was one of the points, but it wasn't the main drive of the plot.


The whole damn plot revolved around Donna!
I saw it for what it was: A glimpse at the Doctor without Donna, thus effecting the world without the Doctor.

[king mob]

The whole damn plot revolved around Donna!
I saw it for what it was: A glimpse at the Doctor without Donna, thus effecting the world without the Doctor.

You're a wee bit confused, the Doctor was barely in it, and yes it was all about Donna but we saw what was happening through her eyes.

[Toku King]

You're a wee bit confused, the Doctor was barely in it, and yes it was all about Donna but we saw what was happening through her eyes.

We saw what was happening through her eyes because it revolved around her and her choice.
It seems I'm not the one confused here, buddy.

[king mob]

We saw what was happening through her eyes because it revolved around her and her choice.
It seems I'm not the one confused here, buddy.


Oh dear lord, chill. That's what I said.

Right, I'm out of this particular conversation. It's got far too pointless.

[Toku King]

Oh dear lord, chill. That's what I said.

Chill? I'm perfectly calm. How about you chill and stop whining instead of getting all fussy?

[Cyke]

As for being 'young' and not ready to handle stuff -- Dude! We've been being invaded since the 1960's! How much more ready do we need to be?! PLUS, the Doctor shouldn't be having to run around ALWAYS saving the Earth -- there are TONS of other planets out there that need saving too. The Earth capable of taking care of itself would NOT make the Doctor obsolete. In fact, the best stories would show the Doctor NOT stepping in to save the day but rather POINTING humanity on the path to save ITSELF. In other words "teach, don't do".


Well, I think thanks to Torchwood, it would be safe to say that Earth has been facing down alien threats since the late 19th Century :) Which, funny thing is, that could mean that Earth is even MORE ready thanks to the Tenth Doctor inadvertently creating Torchwood in the first place.

Anyway, for all this talk about humanity being ready/not ready, etc, I do like the fact that 51st Century Earth has Time Agents (and thus probably something like the temporal bureau of investigation). Humanity's still not as good as the Time Lords, but by then, humanity was advanced enough to have some knowledge (even if it was legend) of the Time War.

Double plus: in Utopia, the Doctor briefly mentions how humans evolved into non-corporeal entities and then into downloadable information before devolving back into, well, classic humanity.

[Toku King]

Right, I'm out of this particular conversation. It's got far too pointless.

Tell me about it. You have absolutely no idea what I'm talking about.

[Stressfactor]

The whole damn plot revolved around Donna!
I saw it for what it was: A glimpse at the Doctor without Donna, thus effecting the world without the Doctor.
Actually, you have it backwards. It isn't the Doctor without Donna (after all, he dies in the first few minutes of the story and doesn't reappear again) it's Donna without the Doctor. It's a glimpse into the kind of person Donna would have been, how she would have dealt with crisis, with the way the world had become, and who she would have become through that crisis. In the end, the person that Donna became was STILL a hero, she was STILL willing to sacrifice her life for the greater good, thereby proving that with or without the Doctor the core of Donna was ALWAYS courage.

[Toku King]

Actually, you have it backwards. It isn't the Doctor without Donna (after all, he dies in the first few minutes of the story and doesn't reappear again) it's Donna without the Doctor. It's a glimpse into the kind of person Donna would have been, how she would have dealt with crisis, with the way the world had become, and who she would have become through that crisis. In the end, the person that Donna became was STILL a hero, she was STILL willing to sacrifice her life for the greater good, thereby proving that with or without the Doctor the core of Donna was ALWAYS courage.

How was mine backwards at all? That's exactly what I said, but with more words.

[Cyke]

Actually, you have it backwards. It isn't the Doctor without Donna (after all, he dies in the first few minutes of the story and doesn't reappear again) it's Donna without the Doctor. It's a glimpse into the kind of person Donna would have been, how she would have dealt with crisis, with the way the world had become, and who she would have become through that crisis. In the end, the person that Donna became was STILL a hero, she was STILL willing to sacrifice her life for the greater good, thereby proving that with or without the Doctor the core of Donna was ALWAYS courage.

Maybe we could examine "Turn Left" through the lens of Midnight as well? the Doctor got in trouble primarily because he assumed false authority like he always does with a ton of hubris, but without Donna there to keep him in check and/or relate to the rest of the crew, something that Martha and Rose had always done. Thus, without a companion, the Doctor himself could get into a lot of trouble.

[Stressfactor]

Maybe we could examine "Turn Left" through the lens of Midnight as well? the Doctor got in trouble primarily because he assumed false authority like he always does with a ton of hubris, but without Donna there to keep him in check and/or relate to the rest of the crew, something that Martha and Rose had always done. Thus, without a companion, the Doctor himself could get into a lot of trouble.
This is true. It also shows how the Doctor has always relied on his 'air of authority' and being so all-fired impressive to get him out of things. When he ceases to impress people and when, yes, he lets his own hubris and arrogance get the better of him he makes matters worse instead of better. It IS a good argument that 'the Doctor should always have a companion to humanize him'.

I think one of the things that "Midnight" also did was show that, despite his human appreance and despite his years of traveling with humans, the Doctor is still an alien and he can still underestimate humanity's capacity for both good and evil. In the end, in "Midnight" he was reminded that he is 'The Other'.

You know, the last season touched on this a little bit but it might be an interesting thing to explore -- what it REALLY means to be the Last of the Time Lords. I mean, the Doctor TALKS about losing Gallifrey but to really SEE him wandering from planet to planet -- all of these alien people and alien cultures and he can never, truly be a PART of them. Despite Sarah Jane's claim that he has the "largest family in the world" the fact of the matter is that they're NOT. They are NOT his family and Earth is NOT his home. It's more the "Martian Manhunter" syndrome rather than the "Superman Sysndrome". The "Superman Syndrome" is the idea that, since Clark Kent was raised LIKE a human BY humans and he LOOKS human he essentially sees Earth as his home. With the "Martian Manhunter Syndrome" you have a character who was raised AS a Martian ON Mars and he is only able to LOOK human through force of will. As such he remains perpetually slightly an outsider. However much he may LIKE Earth and Earthlings he will never truly be ONE of them.

I'd also like to see the Doctor fess up a bit to his past -- that he spent all his time rebelling against Time Lord society, that he defined himself by being everything that they were NOT and now, now that it is all gone he must find new ways to define himself and he must admit to the fact that, after all the running away he has done, now that Gallifrey is gone, he would give nearly anything if he could run back home again.

[Charles RB]

I think he's being a tad harsh on it when he says it's the worst thing he did for Who.

Especially if he just meant telly-Who - he only did one other thing!

I was interested to hear he'd deliberately set up Battlefield to be a mirror-image of Remembrance Of The Daleks though, that was interesting. He'd been putting some thought in.

Again, Aaronovitch points out that not killing the Brig is why the fourth episode is so weak.

That and not rewriting it so it's not leading up to a death that doesn't happen.


As for being 'young' and not ready to handle stuff -- Dude! We've been being invaded since the 1960's! How much more ready do we need to be?!

Hell, thanks to all the time-travel the show's done, we can see we've been invaded since we were cavemen and three seperate aliens (Fendahl, Skaroth the Jagaroth and the Doctor) are responsible for how our cave-selves evolved. We should not only be used to that shit, we should be blase about it by now.

[king mob]

Rich Johnston reckons that it's going to be Matt Smith.

http://www.northamptonchron.co.uk/news/Northampton-actor-tipped-as-favourite.4840574.jp

[Tadhg]

Rich Johnston reckons that it's going to be Matt Smith.

http://www.northamptonchron.co.uk/news/Northampton-actor-tipped-as-favourite.4840574.jp

Good Lord. The Doctor is younger than me. Very weird.

[Cyke]

Good Lord. The Doctor is younger than me. Very weird.

He's younger than me by two years. The Doctor should never ever ever be younger than me!

He is cute, though.

[Stressfactor]

I hope this is a swerve. At this guy's age he'd be younger than most of the actors and actresses they would get to play his companions!

Moffat has gone on record in the past as saying he didn't think the Doctor should be younger than 40...

If they go with him at this rate the Doctor after him will be one of those teenagers making fan films on YouTube!

And while this guy is not yet young enough that I would be old enough to be his mother he's getting uncomfortably close. I really don't want to see that yet.

[king mob]

The actor is 26, youngest Doctor ever. No confirmation of name as yet.

[TCJohnson]

I thought thew were revealing it at 5:35....my god, it's 5:52!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[TCJohnson]

I would be surprised if it was him. Steven Moffett said he didn't think the Doctor should be under 40. Of course, it is not just his decision.

[king mob]

yes, we get the point that he's the youngest Doctor ever! Just tell us his bloody name!

[king mob]

The 11th Doctor is Matt Smith.

[TCJohnson]

Man...that is a let down.

[king mob]

Man...that is a let down.

Give the poor lad a chance, he's only officially been the Doctor for five minutes.

[TCJohnson]

Well, that has more to do with my expectations. There were some brilliant actors up for the role...

And I admit I would have liked to have seen a black Doctor Who.

[Dark_Master]

so, according to OG
Smith has appeared in various television productions, including alongside Billie Piper in the BBC's adaptations of the Philip Pullman novels The Ruby in the Smoke and The Shadow in the North. He co-starred in the drama series Party Animals, and on stage was in Alan Bennett's acclaimed play The History Boys.
anyone seen any of that and can say if he did a good job there or not?

[Toku King]

Damn. I was hoping for Jekyll.
Is this the guy?
http://www.tmcentertainment.co.uk/images/speaker-index/SpeakOutMattSmith2.jpg

[Asmith]

I'm dissapointed. And I know that's unfair as he hasn't done anything yet. And it's not nice to pick on kids...

I was expecting them to give us a black Dr. If for nothing else but a bit of liberal stunt casting. Which would of been a bit jarring, but I figured if the actor could bring the zany maturity that all the other doctors have exhibited, then I'd probably love it.

But Dr Who as a pretty boy kid...? Jeez, I'm not liking the feel of it. I can appreciate him bringing the zany, but the maturity? Nah, I'm not seeing it.

I just don't think any actor that age, no matter how great, can pull off "I watched my planet burn, I'm 900 years old" Without looking like a bit of a drama queen in need of his mother.

Since the show has such a high teen demographic, maybe they're trying to lock in the 2010 season into that market. And with a Dr that looks more at home on the free wall poster of Sweet 16 Teen Heart Throb magazine, maybe they can?

Dissapointed. I get that it's a kid's show - but does it have to star a kid??

Smart move telling the world the casting now. It gives us a year to get use to it, and given that much time, maybe even start to raise some good hopes!

[Cyke]

Damn. I was hoping for Jekyll.
Is this the guy?
http://www.tmcentertainment.co.uk/images/speaker-index/SpeakOutMattSmith2.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/be/11thdoctor.jpg

Though, I probably would've felt a little safer it if was the guy you posted. Still, I'm going to give Matt Smith a chance.

In hindsight, though, I would've probably been a bit happier in the long run if Patterson Joseph did get the role. Then again, let's also remember that Tom Baker was recruited straight out of a construction job to play the Doctor.

[king mob]

i like the fact that they've went for a completely blank canvas with Smith in that, like Tom Baker, there's little previous to judge him on. Not seen anything he's been in, (though I do remember watching Ruby in the Smoke & being bored by it) though the clips shown does suggest they've went for a decent actor.

Now, how many Facebook group will spring up saying 'Worst choice evah!!!'?

[Cyke]

Now, how many Facebook group will spring up saying 'Worst choice evah!!!'?

I've already started looking.

My only real complaint about this choice: no neck tie. I want/need a necktie of SOME kind. McGann rocks my ascot.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/be/11thdoctor.jpg

Though, I probably would've felt a little safer it if was the guy you posted. Still, I'm going to give Matt Smith a chance.

In hindsight, though, I would've probably been a bit happier in the long run if Patterson Joseph did get the role. Then again, let's also remember that Tom Baker was recruited straight out of a construction job to play the Doctor.

Is that the look he's going for ? I think Smith has the pedigree judging from what many have posted about his acting. Plus I dig the longer hair. I could see this Doctor growing his air out if Smith stays a few seasons. I'm not ripping the casting.....seems like they took their time and carefully decided who should carry this mantle.

[Popgun]

Doctor Boosh.

[Toku King]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/be/11thdoctor.jpg

Though, I probably would've felt a little safer it if was the guy you posted. Still, I'm going to give Matt Smith a chance.

In hindsight, though, I would've probably been a bit happier in the long run if Patterson Joseph did get the role. Then again, let's also remember that Tom Baker was recruited straight out of a construction job to play the Doctor.

Well, I'm a bit disappointed, but hell, I'll give 'em a chance. I've never seen him in anything, and I trust Moffat's decision. Besides, his suit it kick ass. Still, Jason Nesbitt was my dream choice.

Hey! Maybe we can get a Three(if not Four) Doctors special!

[king mob]

I've already started looking.

I imagine there's a few by now. I'm actually interested to see how much OG is melting down because of this choice.

[Asmith]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/be/11thdoctor.jpg

Oh isn't that cute! They've dressed him in his dad's jacket. Don't he just look all grown up now!

[Toku King]

I was expecting them to give us a black Dr. If for nothing else but a bit of liberal stunt casting. Which would of been a bit jarring, but I figured if the actor could bring the zany maturity that all the other doctors have exhibited, then I'd probably love it.

My problem is that he's already been on the show, and that kind of ruins it for me when shows do that stuff.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I've already started looking.

My only real complaint about this choice: no neck tie. I want/need a necktie of SOME kind. McGann rocks my ascot.

But this is a change though it seems. If the picture you posted is right , Smith's Doctor has dropped the tie (for now). I really wish a Doctor in a retro way would go back to wearing Tom Baker's hat . Or maybe this Doctor could carry around Troughton's thing he blew for music (name sorry escapes me) .

[king mob]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/be/11thdoctor.jpg

I like that publicity picture, it hides his freakishly large forehead.

In hindsight, though, I would've probably been a bit happier in the long run if Patterson Joseph did get the role. Then again, let's also remember that Tom Baker was recruited straight out of a construction job to play the Doctor.

You don't get to act in a Alan Bennett play if you're a shite actor. That's good enough for me for now.

I'd also expect his previous telly work to be repeated over the 14 months before we get to see him in Who.

[Toku King]

Another picture.
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45343000/jpg/_45343466_newdocotr226.jpg

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I like that publicity picture, it hides his freakishly large forehead.


I think to really hide that forehead they should make him grow his hair out. He's got months to go before they start filming so let him grow it fully out and see how he rocks the look.

[king mob]

But this is a change though it seems. If the picture you posted is right , Smith's Doctor has dropped the tie (for now). I really wish a Doctor in a retro way would go back to wearing Tom Baker's hat . Or maybe this Doctor could carry around Troughton's thing he blew for music (name sorry escapes me) .

Recorder.


That's only a publicty pic, the final costume won't be seen probably for a few months yet.

[Cyke]

But this is a change though it seems. If the picture you posted is right , Smith's Doctor has dropped the tie (for now). I really wish a Doctor in a retro way would go back to wearing Tom Baker's hat . Or maybe this Doctor could carry around Troughton's thing he blew for music (name sorry escapes me) .

You mean a recorder? :)

As for the tie, I mean, I like the Fifth and Ninth Doctors just fine, but to me a tie or some sort of neck accessory (or a tie/ascot PLUS the scarf like the Fourth) is part of the Doctor.

At least the layered look is remaining constant. I live in Chicago, we need layers on our heroes.

[Toku King]

I think to really hide that forehead they should make him grow his hair out. He's got months to go before they start filming so let him grow it fully out and see how he rocks the look.

Actually, he's got all year.

[Asmith]

Well who knows... maybe this will be a really interesting and likable metamorphisis for the show.

But lord they're giving themselves some extra hurdles right out of the regeneration gate by going Harry Potter in the Tardis-90210 from the planet OC.

Anyone really think this young pretty boy will be able to do the Doctor being arrogant and know-everything scenes, without the viewer yelling "Oh shut-up, Wesley Crusher!"??

[king mob]

Actually, he's got all year.


No, they start filming series 5 in June. Smith made it clear tonight that he's got only a few months to develop the role for himself and include what he wants into the costume before filming starts in the summer.

[Toku King]

No, they start filming series 5 in June.

Really? Damn! They should release it with the specials!

[king mob]

Well who knows... maybe this will be a really interesting and likable metamorphisis for the show.

But lord they're giving themselves some extra hurdles right out of the regeneration gate by going Harry Potter in the Tardis-90210 from the planet OC.

Anyone really think this young pretty boy will be able to do the Doctor being arrogant and know-everything scenes, without the viewer yelling "Oh shut-up, Wesley Crusher!"??


He's 26, that doesn't make him a child.

Poor bastard's only been confirmed less than an hour and he's written off already.

[king mob]

Really? Damn! They should release it with the specials!

There's the speacial at Easter, then next year's Christmas special. Then the last Tennant story will comprise the last two specials which are scheduled for broadcast early next year, with series 5 starting March/April 2010.

[Tadhg]

Poor bastard's only been confirmed less than an hour and he's written off already.

It's not that surprising. It's honestly a more shocking change than making him black would have been. Especially when actors his age often play kids.

I'm pretty indifferent, as long as they don't focus on his being so young in the narrative too much.

[Asmith]

He's 26, that doesn't make him a child.

Poor bastard's only been confirmed less than an hour and he's written off already.

Doesn't make him an adult either. Well not one that brings a sense of natural gravitas through age.

And you're right, he may be great. We'll just have to wait. I just hope they change the tone of the show around him to suit. Make it lighter, less dark and more 'whizz-gosh'. I certainly hope they get a more youthful cast popping up around him - otherwise he might start looking silly. Can you imagine a scene between him and Sara Jane Smith... creepy.

But let's not forget the great thing about Dr Who... if you don't like the actor, just wait a little bit and they'll get you a new one.

[Enigmanaut]

Thoughts on Matt Smith, Pro and Con.

Pro:

I've Never seen him in anything before. He will come into the role with no preconceptions on my part. His performance as the Doctor will be all I have.
Being younger and less experienced, he may stick with the role for a while, and it would be nice if the Doctor didn't change too frequently.
He doesn't look like he'd burst Tennant's suit when he wears it.
He's a bit odd looking. Always a plus for the Doctor.


Con:

I've never seen him in anything before. I have no idea if the fellow can act at all.
That hair. Awful hair.


More pro than con, so I'm looking forward to it.

[Charles RB]

He's 26, that doesn't make him a child.


He's a full four years older than me, for feck's sake.

[darkhanamaru]

He's a full four years older than me, for feck's sake.

and? :evilsmile:


just kidding

[Justin D.]

I'm disappointed in the choice for the new Doctor. I was looking forward to it being Paterson Joseph. Maybe the new guy will be good though. We have a least one year to get over any misgivings and watch Tennant for a few more specials in the meanwhile.

[W.Y.B.A.]

I'm sure the lads a good actor, but he looks young even for 26 and it will be a huge struggle for him to convincingly portray the authority the doctors' supposed to have. When i saw the press pics it instantly put me in mind of that teen girls vampire film thats out, "Twilight", which from me is not a compliment, if their trying to pull in more teen girl veiwers it could backfire.

[Tadhg]

Hey, at least he's older than Adric, amiright?

[Damiean Dark]

The BBC just didnt have that extra bit of conviction to give it to a black actor imo, Joseph would really have been good i feel because he is a tremendous comic and dramatic actor.

This new guy could be amazing but just hearing him talk brings back feelings of the guy who plays Robin Hood in the new BBC adaption: looks like one of the jude law london set, good looking but bland overall. We needed someone with extra spice Eccleson was out there with his intensity, Tennant was more traditional odd but this new guy just seems wrong.

[Asmith]

He's a full four years older than me, for feck's sake.

Yeh, I (vaguely) remember when I was your age and thought mid twenties was very adult. But after you've chewed through most of your thirties, you'd be surprised just how kid-like mid twenty year olds really are.

I'm sure the lads a good actor, but he looks young even for 26 and it will be a huge struggle for him to convincingly portray the authority the doctors' supposed to have.
Yep, that's my thoughts too. I can't imagine too many episodes of season 4 he wouldn't have looked silly in. Well, maybe Poison Sky - he could of battled it out with the other kid genius.

If his youthful appearance becomes a never ending conversation on the show, that's gonna drag the Doctor's credibility down a notch.

But if the lighten the show up considerably to suit this young actor, it might make for some very fun shows.


When i saw the press pics it instantly put me in mind of that teen girls vampire film thats out, "Twilight", which from me is not a compliment, if their trying to pull in more teen girl veiwers it could backfire.

Yep, it does seem that they aiming straight for the hearts of teen girls (and confused young men) don't it?

[darkhanamaru]

I'm sure the lads a good actor, but he looks young even for 26 and it will be a huge struggle for him to convincingly portray the authority the doctors' supposed to have. When i saw the press pics it instantly put me in mind of that teen girls vampire film thats out, "Twilight", which from me is not a compliment, if their trying to pull in more teen girl veiwers it could backfire.

My thoughts exactly....this feels like Twilight casting with a little bit of intimidation of Tennant's popularity.

[W.Y.B.A.]

Hey, at least he's older than Adric, amiright?

Is Adric from Twilight? If he is I wouldn't know, I'm as likely to watch it as I am Mama Mia. They look about the same age from what I've seen though. Theres a big chance that the plots will involve his struggle to earn respect because of his young appearance and any romanace will be much more overt than in previous series, in which case I think it will annoy me.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bup3Q5EAQPw

I like how visual with his hands and all he is. If anything he's gonna be very animated with his gestures . I think he'll be fine. He's got that weird look with the hair and his gestures with his hands sell me.

[Tadhg]

Is Adric from Twilight?

No. Adric was a companion of Tom Baker's and Peter Davison's. I can't tell you anything of Twilight.

[Damiean Dark]

Maybebut i still wanted Joseph.:mad:

[Asmith]

Is Adric from Twilight? If he is I wouldn't know, I'm as likely to watch it as I am Mama Mia. They look about the same age from what I've seen though. Theres a big chance that the plots will involve his struggle to earn respect because of his young appearance and any romanace will be much more overt than in previous series, in which case I think it will annoy me.

No, Adric was a Doctor's companion in the 80s. A young know it all chap whose immense amount of annoying was so devestating that it managed to actually kill the dinosaurs.

Yeh... it is a bit like Adric's the new Doc...

[Doodle Bob]

I'm quite excited to see where they go with this. Moffat has not failed the show so far.

The only thing that's a bit of a bummer is that there will probably be no well-established Companion (or companions) to observe the transformation along with us, the viewers. The great thing about the move from Eccleston to Tennant was watching the reactions from Rose, Mickey and Jackie. Their characters had been well-established enough that their reactions had a great deal of weight.

[W.Y.B.A.]

Maybebut i still wanted Joseph.:mad:

Yeah, he's a bloody legend as Johnson in Peepshow. I think he would have given the role the right sort of gravitas.

[AlistairCrane]

Matt Smith looks fantastic! I'll give Season Five a shot, even though I don't trust Moffatt. I'm glad they went with a younger guy.

[Tik]

I think it helps if you actually see him in action. If you just look at the pic and read out his age you tend to think "Hmm.....is this wise?" but after watching the confidential I'm pretty damn confident they can pull it off.

I was abit taken aback when he first appeared on screen. However, in the interview he was giving off a Doctorly vibe for me. There was one point in the interview, for example, where he reminded me of Patrick Troughton where he starts with the whole "Exciting....nerverwracking.....exciting! *wiggles fingers around* bit.

He seemed to have the Doctors eccentricity. And although he is young, he did portray the confidence, maturity, and authority you would want to see in the role (and I'm still not entirely sure how he did it....)

Dont right off the guy before you've seen him in action. And if you still have doubts, be content with this. In the confidential Moffat said he was planning on having an older Doctor because he thought David Tennent was a fluke and no young actor could portray the Doctors character as it should be. Then this young guy auditions and Moffet does a 180 degree turn and completely changes his mind. If he changed Moffets mind, I think we owe him a little bit of faith eh?

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Maybebut i still wanted Joseph.:mad:

I wanted Morrisy in a swerve within a swerve. That he did become the next Doctor . (And no not Jackson Lake , just that Lake left such an impression after some travel and X-Mas dinner , the Doctor somehow when he dies takes that look !)

No, Adric was a Doctor's companion in the 80s. A young know it all chap whose immense amount of annoying was so devestating that it managed to actually kill the dinosaurs.

Yeh... it is a bit like Adric's the new Doc...

Tegan and Adric both made me wanna strangle them after I say Davison's 1st 2 stories last night. This guy doesn't wanna make me want to get a knife.

[Enigmanaut]

The only thing that's a bit of a bummer is that there will probably be no well-established Companion (or companions) to observe the transformation along with us, the viewers. The great thing about the move from Eccleston to Tennant was watching the reactions from Rose, Mickey and Jackie. Their characters had been well-established enough that their reactions had a great deal of weight.

We don't actually know that. Martha or Jack could be there. We know nothing of Tennant's final tale.

[AlistairCrane]

We don't actually know that. Martha or Jack could be there. We know nothing of Tennant's final tale.

It just seems unlikely that Rose, Martha, Jack, etc. would return since we got their big farewells with the Doctor in Journey's End.

[Gary Joyce]

I suposse he seems to be a distinctly different Doctor, a Steven Moffat type. I'm certain the series will be darker. He's got a nice otherworldly feel to him though. However as the first Emo Doctor producers will need a 24 hour timetable to watch him around razors.....

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I think it helps if you actually see him in action. If you just look at the pic and read out his age you tend to think "Hmm.....is this wise?" but after watching the confidential I'm pretty damn confident they can pull it off.

I was abit taken aback when he first appeared on screen. However, in the interview he was giving off a Doctorly vibe for me. There was one point in the interview, for example, where he reminded me of Patrick Troughton where he starts with the whole "Exciting....nerverwracking.....exciting! *wiggles fingers around* bit.


Thats the vibe I get weirdly when you think about him. How he seems to express his emotions so quick. He does that and his hands and its like they went with someone close to the 2nd Doctor in a sense.

http://i519.photobucket.com/albums/u359/DemonDave_photos/powerdaleks.jpg

http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa263/deutschjay/patrick_troughtonbnw.jpg

[W.Y.B.A.]

I'm quite excited to see where they go with this. Moffat has not failed the show so far.

The only thing that's a bit of a bummer is that there will probably be no well-established Companion (or companions) to observe the transformation along with us, the viewers. The great thing about the move from Eccleston to Tennant was watching the reactions from Rose, Mickey and Jackie. Their characters had been well-established enough that their reactions had a great deal of weight.

Imagine this new lad being accompanied by Donna though, it would have been a bit odd I think. It'll be interesting to see what sort of character they do pair him up with. My cynical side thinks it will be a lass whoes a bit younger than he is and I expect she'll be easy on the eye.

[Asmith]

Tegan and Adric both made me wanna strangle them after I say Davison's 1st 2 stories last night. This guy doesn't wanna make me want to get a knife.

Oh god... Tegan AND Adric... shudder! Sitting down to watch those two was a bit like buying a ticket to see two people duel by scraping nails down a blackboard...

I remember at the time, I just kept hoping that the Doctor (Davidson, whom I quite liked, though he was a bit wussy) would say: "Tegan! Adric! Grab your bathers, we're going for a little holiday to the Dalek homeworld! You two go find a nice spot on the beach, while I... um... park the Tardis! Run along now!"

[Asmith]

Imagine this new lad being accompanied by Donna though, it would have been a bit odd I think. It'll be interesting to see what sort of character they do pair him up with. My cynical side thinks it will be a lass whoes a bit younger than he is and I expect she'll be easy on the eye.

Maybe... The Doctor's Daughter, prehaps?! They could have pouting and perky compititions throughout time!

[AlistairCrane]

Maybe... The Doctor's Daughter, prehaps?! They could have pouting and perky compititions throughout time!

Or a different incarnation of River Song (Alex Kingston is too old to be paired with this Doctor).

The Doctor can't travel with his daughter--he needs to be with a (human) woman for the sexual chemistry.

[Tadhg]

Or a different incarnation of River Song (Alex Kingston is too old to be paired with this Doctor).

The Doctor can't travel with his daughter--he needs to be with a (human) woman for the sexual chemistry.

Only if you think sexual chemistry is a necessity. Most people don't.

[Charles RB]

Only if you think sexual chemistry is a necessity. Most people don't.

After four years of it, I'd be quite glad if we didn't have it for a while.

[W.Y.B.A.]

Maybe... The Doctor's Daughter, prehaps?! They could have pouting and perky compititions throughout time!

Ha! Yeah well at least that would rule out a love interest plot. Unless they wanted to really take the show to a dark horrible place! :eek:

If I said that the doctors daughter coming back wouldn't be a bad thing, would that make me a hypocrite?

[Asmith]

Or a different incarnation of River Song (Alex Kingston is too old to be paired with this Doctor).

The Doctor can't travel with his daughter--he needs to be with a (human) woman for the sexual chemistry.

I'd like to think that if they paired him up with his daughter they'd try and avoid any sexual chemistry... but that could just be me. I'm very old fashioned at times.

[W.Y.B.A.]

I'd like to think that if they paired him up with his daughter they'd try and avoid any sexual chemistry... but that could just be me. I'm very old fashioned at times.

Yeah you old fuddy duddy, all the hip young timelords are having it away with their synthetically spawned relatives these days, get with the program grandad.

[Asmith]

If I said that the doctors daughter coming back wouldn't be a bad thing, would that make me a hypocrite?

No. Just male.

[Toku King]

There's the speacial at Easter, then next year's Christmas special. Then the last Tennant story will comprise the last two specials which are scheduled for broadcast early next year, with series 5 starting March/April 2010.

Yeah, I read about that.

[W.Y.B.A.]

No. Just male.

Ha, or both.

[Toku King]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bup3Q5EAQPw

I like how visual with his hands and all he is. If anything he's gonna be very animated with his gestures . I think he'll be fine. He's got that weird look with the hair and his gestures with his hands sell me.

Yeah, besides the hair, I think he's perfect. He's a little slurry, but he'll most likely get rid of that when acting.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Oh god... Tegan AND Adric... shudder! Sitting down to watch those two was a bit like buying a ticket to see two people duel by scraping nails down a blackboard...

I remember at the time, I just kept hoping that the Doctor (Davidson, whom I quite liked, though he was a bit wussy) would say: "Tegan! Adric! Grab your bathers, we're going for a little holiday to the Dalek homeworld! You two go find a nice spot on the beach, while I... um... park the Tardis! Run along now!"

I would have liked Davison more had he left Tegan and Adric to die . He could claim the 2 would make their worlds into some emo filled disaster in the future. Save the world thru the greater good. :tongue:

Maybe... The Doctor's Daughter, prehaps?! They could have pouting and perky compititions throughout time!

Or a different incarnation of River Song (Alex Kingston is too old to be paired with this Doctor).

The Doctor can't travel with his daughter--he needs to be with a (human) woman for the sexual chemistry.

Only if you think sexual chemistry is a necessity. Most people don't.

After four years of it, I'd be quite glad if we didn't have it for a while.

I agree.... who was it that said we needed a Father and Daughter to stumble into the Tardis ? And have the father who is in his 40's/50's question this young man over things he does. The Doctor could learn some things from this older person about life and being a parent.

I'd go there. And the interaction this could cause.

[Asmith]

Ha, or both.

Actually, in thinking about it, pairing him with his daughter, initially anyway, might be a good thing. Since any normal person would look at the Who-boy with no little mirth the first time he tried to be all commandy or bossy. His daughter could be a great transition character, as she'd have a natural propensity to defer to his authority, plus she'd be an eager audience for his lectures. And certainly wouldn't dismiss him like he was showing off his first pair of long pants.

And for those people who just demand sexual chemistry, well that can happen between the viewers eyeballs and the tv screen.

[W.Y.B.A.]

I agree.... who was it that said we needed a Father and Daughter to stumble into the Tardis ? And have the father who is in his 40's/50's question this young man over things he does. The Doctor could learn some things from this older person about life and being a parent.

I'd go there. And the interaction this could cause.

Not a bad idea, it would certainly be new ground for doctor who.

[Asmith]

Not a bad idea, it would certainly be new ground for doctor who.

And at the end of every episode he could type up the life lessons he learned into his Tardis computer diary. "Dear Diary, today I learnt that to truly be a man, I needed more than a working sonic screwdriver I could rely upon. First I needed to be the kind of friend others could rely upon..." Whoops! My mistake! That's not Doctor Who, that's Doctor Doogie Howser... or is it..??

[W.Y.B.A.]

Actually, in thinking about it, pairing him with his daughter, initially anyway, might be a good thing. Since any normal person would look at the Who-boy with no little mirth the first time he tried to be all commandy or bossy. His daughter could be a great transition character, as she'd have a natural propensity to defer to his authority, plus she'd be an eager audience for his lectures. And certainly wouldn't dismiss him like he was showing off his first pair of long pants.

And for those people who just demand sexual chemistry, well that can happen between the viewers eyeballs and the tv screen.

I dunno if she would so easily show deference to the the new doctor, but either way it would give some interesting possibilities for interaction, and I think we can safely assume the big british castle wont have any incestual undertones in the show if they do.

Also I guess whoever they pair him up with will soon respect him after they had him save their backsides from some terrible fate.

[Matt]

He's younger than me by two years. The Doctor should never ever ever be younger than me!

He is cute, though.

Cute? The first thought I had when I saw the photos was "Damn, that's one ugly dude."

I also hope that the photos are not what the 11th will actually be wearing in episodes. How incredibly ... dull.

[Loki]

Actually, in thinking about it, pairing him with his daughter, initially anyway, might be a good thing. Since any normal person would look at the Who-boy with no little mirth the first time he tried to be all commandy or bossy. His daughter could be a great transition character, as she'd have a natural propensity to defer to his authority, plus she'd be an eager audience for his lectures. And certainly wouldn't dismiss him like he was showing off his first pair of long pants.

There'd also be some amusement factor, so long as it wasn't overused, in the ongoing assumption people have that the Doctor and his companion are a couple - cue Jenny going "eww, no, he's my Dad!" to the flabbergasted assumers.

[W.Y.B.A.]

And at the end of every episode he could type up the life lessons he learned into his Tardis computer diary. "Dear Diary, today I learnt that to truly be a man, I needed more than a working sonic screwdriver I could rely upon. First I needed to be the kind of friend others could rely upon..." Whoops! My mistake! That's not Doctor Who, that's Doctor Doogie Howser... or is it..??

Doctor Dougie Whoser!

That would be an abomination!! Ha.

[Tadhg]

I also hope that the photos are not what the 11th will actually be wearing in episodes. How incredibly ... dull.

It's not.

[Asmith]

Doctor Dougie Whoser!

That would be an abomination!! Ha.

Dr Doogie Whoser... damn, I did all the digging but you found the comedy gold!

[Cyke]

Cute? The first thought I had when I saw the photos was "Damn, that's one ugly dude."


Different strokes, I suppose. I'm a Doctor Who fan, I tend to skew towards the geeky guys in my life.

I remember my sister cringing when Nine kissed Rose, though. Hah.

[Asmith]

Cute? The first thought I had when I saw the photos was "Damn, that's one ugly dude."

I also hope that the photos are not what the 11th will actually be wearing in episodes. How incredibly ... dull.

I'd be surprised if his final outfit is outrageously more interesting. I would think they'd try all they can to mature him up, costume-wise. And that usually means dull.

Plus I don't think the NuWho is into the wacky attire of the past.

[Matt]

As for 'Matt Smith', I am unfamiliar with his acting work. I simply have not seen him in anything, which is both good and bad.

My initial thoughts are that they should have gone with someone older this time; 35+. While a 26 year old actor may appeal to younger viewers, I think we've had more than enough of manic behaviour, such a young actor also runs the risk of turning the show in a more 90120 direction ... which simply would be bad.

But I guess it's just a case of wait and see.

[Matt]

Plus I don't think the NuWho is into the wacky attire of the past.

I liked Jackson Lakes (just tone the colours down a little) and especially the 8th Doctor's. The Doctor really should be wearing things that fit in everywhere and yet nowhere at once ... not strictly 20th/21st century fashion.

[W.Y.B.A.]

Yeah, the outfit isn't going to be all that out there I wouldn't have thought whatever it ends up like. They will have to change it though, the press shots are too much like Tennants doctors clothes.

[Asmith]

I liked Jackson Lakes (just tone the colours down a little) and especially the 8th Doctor's. The Doctor really should be wearing things that fit in everywhere and yet nowhere at once ... not strictly 20th/21st century fashion.

Oh, you mean like this!
http://k-punk.abstractdynamics.org/archives/Colin_Baker_2.jpg

[Toku King]

I saw the comments at Yahoo about this. I'm embarrassed to even be a fan when I hear comments like "he's too ugly", "nobody can beat Tennant", "I wanted a black Who", "gay", and "he's too young". Seriously, this worries me about the type of Whovians this generation has.

[Toku King]

Oh, you mean like this!
http://k-punk.abstractdynamics.org/archives/Colin_Baker_2.jpg

Now he was the worst Doctor ever.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I liked Jackson Lakes (just tone the colours down a little) and especially the 8th Doctor's. The Doctor really should be wearing things that fit in everywhere and yet nowhere at once ... not strictly 20th/21st century fashion.

I actually liked Jackson Lake and the pocket watch . I agree tone the colors down , give The Doctor a vest to keep his watch in and make the thing as good as his sonic screw driver and it would be good.

[W.Y.B.A.]

I saw the comments at Yahoo about this. I'm embarrassed to even be a fan when I hear comments like "he's too ugly", "nobody can beat Tennant", "I wanted a black Who", "gay", and "he's too young". Seriously, this worries me about the type of Whovians this generation has.

I think more than anything it raises my eyebrow about where they want to go with the show. To me Doctor Who is a family show, and I think there's a good chance their focusing on a teen audience instead with this lad, it remains to be seen I guess.

I think there is grounds to say he looks to young, I'm sure he's capable of the acting though. It's just gonna be hard to take him seriously.

[Asmith]

Yeah, the outfit isn't going to be all that out there I wouldn't have thought whatever it ends up like. They will have to change it though, the press shots are too much like Tennants doctors clothes.
I thought his press release outfitting was a clever combination of Tennant's jacket and Eccleston's jumper. Sort of a visual message, sayin, "don't panic! see, he's just like the last two doctors you loved! Only he doesn't necessarily shave yet, is all..."

I saw the comments at Yahoo about this. I'm embarrassed to even be a fan when I hear comments like "he's too ugly", "nobody can beat Tennant", "I wanted a black Who", "gay", and "he's too young". Seriously, this worries me about the type of Whovians this generation has.
This new doctor isn't just generating motherly concern in you, is he?

I think he's too young to play the role. And I supposes he does look a bit... um... 'Capt. Jack'...

But this is early days, very early. Once the Tennant shows are over we'll all be climbing the walls for this kids first episode. Myself included. All of us with our fingers crossed that it won't suck.

But in the meantime there's all those months ahead of analysing leaked photos and armchair producing a show we've not seen yet!